The Ariel Helwani Show - Stephen Brunt

Episode Date: October 7, 2021

Ariel's favorite sports journalist joins the show to talk about his untraditional path into the business and how that path eventually took him to Muhammad Ali's house, telling Ariel a bone-chilling story you have to hear (32:43). Plus, Brunt discusses the state of the newspaper business (19:51), why he's never had a social media account (26:56), the biggest regrets from his legendary career and if he thinks baseball will ever return to Montreal (hint: his answer gets Ariel very excited.)Currently a drive-time radio host and commentator for Rogers Sportsnet, Stephen Brunt is a staple of Canadian sports journalism. He spent nearly 30 years at The Globe and Mail, one of the most reputable papers in all of Canada. He is the author of over 13 books and is widely considered to be the voice of Canadian sports.You can follow Brunt...nowhere. He doesn't believe he needs social media to do his job.For more episodes of The Ariel Helwani Show, please follow the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your shows. To get more from Ariel, subscribe to his YouTube channel, read his writing on Substack, watch his work for BT Sport and follow The MMA Hour or The Ringer MMA Show.Theme music: "Frantic" by The Lovely Feathers

Hey everyone, hope you're doing well. It is Thursday, October 7th, 2021. Oh, I am excited about today's show, my friends. And off the top, thank you once again to the Lovely Feathers for this great soundtrack. It is so great to have them a part of the show. And every time, I just listen to the first like 10-15 seconds of each podcast over and over again because I love the fact that my good friends, lovely feathers are a part of the show in this capacity giving us the uh the ability to use their great song frantic as our theme song we've done

two episodes up until this point this is episode three of the a Helwani Show. Episode one was a great conversation with WWE champion Big E. Episode two was another great conversation with my good friend Patrick McAfee. And episode three is a very special one to me because anytime someone asks me who my favorite journalists are, sports or not, at the very top of the list is my guest today, Stephen Brunt. Now, Stephen Brunt may not be a household name to you if you're listening in the United States or anywhere outside of Canada, truth be told, but I think he is one of the best sports journalists in the world. I have been listening to him, reading him, watching him for as long as I can remember, consuming any kind of sports media. He worked for the Globe and Mail, which is a very reputable outlet for about 30 years.

And for the past 10 or so years, he worked for Rogers Sportsnet, which, if I could compare them to an outlet here in the United States, is pretty much ESPN. There are two big sports networks in Canada. One is TSN, which has been around longer, which is owned by Bell Media, telecommunications company. And the other one is Rogers Sportsnet, which is owned by Rogers Communications, the other telecommunications company in Canada. So AT&T, T-Mobile, whatever. These are big, big, huge companies.

And so he works for Rogers. He's writing for them on their website, sportsnet.ca. He's also on a radio show every day, Drive Time Hour, and also on television as well. And in my opinion, he's the very best in the business. His insights, his demeanor, his ethics what he stands for, what he represents has been an inspiration for me

I've been interviewed by him a couple of times but I've never had the opportunity to interview him and this will be my first chance to do so he's written over 15 books he's been doing this for almost four decades now. He has seen it all. He has done it all. He is the voice of Canadian sports.

When something big happens in Canadian sports, I want to hear from him. And he does these amazing essays that I'll talk to him about in this conversation. And he just has an amazing ability to put it all into perspective, to make sense of it all, to pull at your heartstrings, and to just be the voice of the Canadian people. And so this is a big deal for me. This is an honor for me. I think the world of Stephen Brunt, and I'm just so excited to talk to him today and to share this conversation with all of you. And hopefully if you don't know who Stephen Brunt is, I hope by the end of this conversation, you will understand why I think so highly of him and why he means so much to not just me, but to the rest of Canada. He is a national treasure and everyone holds him in very high regard.

Can you tell that I think very highly of Stephen Brunt? I'll shut up now. Here's my conversation with the one and only, the inimitable, the often imitated, the never duplicated, the legend, the king of Canadian sports media, Stephen Brunt. Enjoy. I believe next year, you'll celebrate your 40th year in the business, correct? Oh, man. Okay. Let me think about that. Maybe, let's see.

It's close, but yeah, maybe just a little bit. Let me think about that. Not in sports. 82, right? Yeah, 82, I got out of school, and I guess that's true. And then I freelanced for a bit after that. I started at the Globe and Mail in 84. Okay. And I didn't really start writing sports until 1988, 89. So I started out as a news guy.

So yes, started with the Globe and Mail, now work for Rogers Sportsnet on the website, of course, on the radio, on television as well. Like I said, Canadian sports media royalty have written an incredible amount of books. At this point, how many books is it? 12, 11, 13? It's more, but I don't acknowledge every one of them. Okay. All right. But I think it's, yeah, it's 15 or 16, something like that.

I'm working on a couple right now. Okay. Wow. So you're a very busy man, and that's why I really appreciate the time. I'd like to start here if I could. You know, I'm still, we're taping this on a Tuesday. I'm still a little bit sad about what happened on Sunday afternoon with the Toronto Blue Jays. I've become a Blue Jays fan after my Montreal Expos left in 2004.

And, you know, I can become a fan. I could act crazy. I could lose my mind with these games because I don't cover baseball for a living. I'm not a sports columnist. I primarily cover the fights. You cover everything. And I'm wondering if there was ever a time, because I know this team meant a lot to Toronto and to Canada, young guys, they've been through so much.

Has there been a time as of late in your career where you felt a little too emotionally invested in a team and had to check yourself and say like, hey, I can't be a fan here. I can't, you know, I still have to keep it down the middle. I still have to be unbiased. Or at this point, have you been doing this for so long where it's all kind of neutral and you're

immune to everything? No, I'm not. I'm definitely not immune. And I'm not immune by design to some degree. I've thought about this a lot over the, over, over time, because look, I've sat in a million press boxes with the, you know, no chair and in the press box, right. And everybody's, it's kind of grim and head down. It doesn't matter what's happening.

It could be the greatest game in history, and you're all kind of grimly getting ready to fall for deadline. And if anybody says anything or makes a noise, everybody looks at them like they've done something horrible, right? That was kind of the etiquette of the press box that I was raised with. I spent all that time in press boxes. But I also saw guys in the business get really, you know, kind of lose the ability to enjoy sports. Like, it's weird that people covered sports

who kind of hated sports at a certain point because they've been doing it so long and they'd seen everything and done everything and couldn't get past that to the point where, like, I was, you know, I was a music critic for a little while in my life and my wife was a restaurant critic for a little while in her life I got to eat those meals with her and I remember how it took the joy out of going to restaurants it turned going to restaurants into

work and I remember you know reviewing concerts at certain points and thinking you know that it was a grind and you didn't really enjoy what you were experiencing and I I made a decision at some point in this sports thing that that if I ever lost that like if I didn't have that anywhere inside me I'd quit and go do something else because what's the point right if you can't feel it it again be like being an art critic and not appreciating art like why why would you do it if you don't get any pleasure out of it so I have tried to keep that part of me alive and you know in terms of bias you know number one it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things right none of this stuff matters in the grand scheme of things um i i cheer for people

because i you know when i get to know people sometimes in the business and sports business athletes coaches front office guys i cheer for them because the ones I like, who I think are good people. I hope they have success. But I'll tell you, like I was at that bat flip game, the Jose Bautista bat flip game in Toronto in 2015, sitting kind of in the stands. And it's one of the greatest things I've ever experienced because I did let myself go.

It was fantastic. And I went to a couple of these games in toronto uh this fall when they finally let us back in the stadium with with my sons and went to a couple of ball games and just sat there and felt the feel of being in a crowd for the first time in two years and ate a hot dog and drank a beer and cheered and cheered if you again i think if that's gone completely you might as well go cover wall street has there ever been a point where you felt like you were actually losing it, that passion, that love, where it was getting to be too much? It wasn't fun anymore. Yeah, there were definitely nights when it wasn't fun.

There were definitely nights grinding it out to deadline when it wasn't fun. And this really goes back to newspaper days, right? Or when I've got kids, you know, you miss a lot of stuff in your life if you're in that job. You miss things happening in your real life. You know, all kinds of events take place when you're on the road somewhere in some crappy Marriott, and you wonder why you're doing it. And there were moments like that, for sure, over time.

But I'm kind of, no, my friend David Schultz, who used to work for the globe with me always referred to sports writers generally as the happy warriors of newspaper like that we we actually enjoyed our lives more than most people did and i and i'm with that i like the positive way outweighed the negative and the pleasure i got out of it has way outweighed any kind of aggravation or cynicism that crept in. Do you remember where you were, how old you were, what prompted your desire to become a sports journalist?

Or maybe I should say actually a journalist, because as you said, you started out not going into sports. You went to school and studied journalism. But when did this dream sort of start for you? Well, it's like I'm different than most guys, because most people who cover sports have always wanted to cover sports. And's what they they did and right and they the one way or another they were covering sports in high school or in university or whatever and they went into sports journalism where they were failed athletes i'm a non-athlete like i'm failed would be you know flattering what i really was i always liked sports i was always a fan and i was passionate about it. But I'm a failed musician. So I went into journalism

when I realized I couldn't be successful as a musician or even get a music degree, which is what I had hoped to do originally. So I started writing about music as a way to kind of keep myself involved with music. So when I was in university and again, kind of came to that realization that, you know, I'm going to get an English degree or I'm not going to get a music degree and I'm not good enough. And I don't,'t you know i also don't care about it the way you have to care about it to be a real musician i tip my cap my dad was a musician i tip my cap to people who are real musicians um i wasn't going to be able i wasn't willing and i wasn't good enough but i started covering concerts as a lark you know reviewing records we back in the day when

there were records but as a way to kind of keep my hand in with music, well, I had no idea what I was going to do. So that's, you know, that's where I started. And, you know, I started out at a university paper and then I worked for the newspaper in the city where the university was located, doing that on the side while I was in school. And then I went to the Globe as an intern,

doing it in the arts section. I went to journalism schools in grad school, but I went to the globe as an intern, um, doing it in the arts section. Um, I went to journalism schools in grad school, but I went to a journalism school where they didn't acknowledge that arts journalism or sports journalism existed. They didn't, it really wasn't part of the curriculum at all. And, uh, I kind of worked my way into the globe through, through that channel and through freelancing and then I you know ended up I got laid off as a student uh in the depths of a recession um got hired back as a news reporter general news reporter which I'd never done except for journalism school stuff and then I went into sports because a job opened up you know there the globe had a feature sports feature writing job at

the time and I'd done a lot of long form stuff a lot of feature writing and I applied for it and I got it and I became the sports columnist when the when the sports columnist retired or was retired mandatory retirement and I applied for the job and got it but I had never thought about being a sports journalist ever aside from you know goofing around with sports radio in in school um I never thought about it until the job came open to be honest it was so that was not my lifelong dream, and I came at it really through a circuitous route. Wow. But did you grow up a sports fan? Oh, yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I grew up watching everything. Around here, I grew up before there was Major League Baseball in Toronto, but the Detroit Tigers were the closest team. Then the Expos were very important to me. Fergie Jenkins playing for the Cubs, a Canadian playing for the Cubs. I grew up in the Canadian Football League in Hamilton, where I am now. And the NFL. I love boxing and watch boxing on TV with my dad. Yeah, all that stuff. I love sports, but, you know, but not, not in a way that's like, as I say, most of the folks that I know in this business, that was, that's the only channel they went down.

I never thought of as anywhere where I would ever make a living for sure. By the way, what, what instrument did you play? Like what was the dream? I played trombone, man, which is not glamorous. Wow. Although, yeah, but my dad played trombone. He was at, he played with the doors stombie dorsey orchestra and a bunch of other bands and uh um yeah it's not a it's not an

instrument you can take to the beach so it uh it uh yeah but uh yeah i played in bands and uh had a lot of fun doing it and joined the union and all that stuff but you know that there were there are limits there were limits to my ability Liebling, who is that to you? Yeah, well, he's a hero, right? He's one of my heroes, for sure. You know, the sweet science. Not just the sweet science, but all of his kind of cultural writing and his food writing and all of that stuff he did.

You know, writing for The New Yorker. And his writing about Paris, but especially his writing about boxing, the sweet science, is obviously the most famous one. There's a collection of essays called The Telephone Booth Indian, which is not about boxing mostly, but great kind of observational pieces. They're of the time. So anybody who goes back and reads them,

there's going to be stuff in the language and stuff in the attitudes that are of that moment. But I would encourage people not to just cancel them, you know, read them and kind of take them in context. But yeah, a great reader, a passionate consumer of food and alcohol and life. And anybody, I think anybody who's ever watched a, you know, who likes boxing, who likes combat sports,

ought to dive into the Sweet Science for sure, the collection of Sweet Science. It's magnificent stuff. So what I've always appreciated about you, in addition to your great coverage of the traditional sports, is your love and your interest in combat sports. So when I would come on, say, one of your shows, you didn't kind of look down on me for being the MMA guy or the fighting guy. It was very clear that you had a deep appreciation for it.

And correct me if I'm wrong, was it the interest in boxing that kind of opened this door to this career? And in particular, you know, your pieces on the corruption in boxing in Ontario in 1988, which you won an award for, it was that incredible. Is that kind of what started all of this, this path down the sports journalism road? It really did, I guess, that's true. I wrote a little bit of, I kind of spun off some boxing stuff to the sports journalism road it really did i guess that's true um i i wrote a little bit of i kind of spun off some boxing stuff to the sports section at the newspaper just for fun like i remember i went down to detroit to try and find leon spinks after leon spinks after he had lost uh the the rematch rally and he was making a comeback and he was at cronk at the cronk gym and i spent three days in detroit was learning experience waiting for leon spinks to show up he

never showed up. But I just wanted to go to the Cronk, right? Like the whole reason for that story was just so I could go to Detroit and hang out at the Cronk gym, which was amazing. You know, the old gym in the basement with all the kind of legendary stuff.

And yeah, I did do a series of investigative stuff. The best, you know, pure journalism I've ever done about the lack of enforcement of the rules in Ontario and the way the way the sport was being run. So, yeah, I but, you know, you couldn't make in those days like you definitely there were there were guys in those days in the States where newspapers had beat guys on boxing. Right. You had actual beat writers like that was my dream was to do what, you know, like Michael Katz did or, you know, one of those guys who were actual boxing beat writers. But there was no such thing in Canada so um you're gonna have to you're

gonna go into sports you're gonna have to do other stuff but but I was yeah I was the de facto boxing beat writer when I got into the sports section along with the other stuff I did are you still into boxing I mean boxing I think is enjoying a great time there's a huge heavyweight title fight happening this weekend coincidentally Tyson Fury Deontay Wilder III. Are you still as passionate about it or less these days? I still, I am still, I still, I really enjoy it. Like I watched the Joshua Usyk fight

a couple of weeks ago and I got a huge kick of watching Usyk. I thought he was, you know, it reminded me of the first big fight I cover, big, big fight in Vegas was Michael Spinks, Larry Holmes. So undefeated light heavyweight champion undefeated heavyweight champion trying to break the Marciano record and Spinks beat him and outsmarted him in that fight um and like Anthony Joshua is not Larry Holmes uh

you know Larry Holmes one of the 10 greatest heavyweights of all time Anthony Joshua I think it's a bit of a fraud but it reminded me of that. I'm reminded just watching the scene. I wish I'd been there. That 70,000 people and then watching the underdog kind of with no fear take over. Like, that's a pure kind of combat sport moment, right? I don't know you could replicate what happened in that fight in any other sport that way. So that, yeah, I still tune in. I'll watch Wilder Fury.

I'm fascinated by, you know, obviously, as with always, a lot of the best stuff is not in the heavyweight division. But, yeah, look, I'm not, no, I'm not as zoned in as I was. Like, I covered Tyson's entire career, for instance, you know, from beginning, literally beginning to literally the end. And, you know, I'm not, I'm not going to make an argument for him as a fighter or as a human being,

but it was an amazing story. Um, yeah, I'm not locked in like I was then, or like when I was doing, you know, covering Leonard and Hagler and Hearns and Duran and people like that. Um,

but I still love it, you know, and I, I'll still go out of my way to watch it. By the way, just as a quick aside, why is Anthony Joshua fraud? I love fraud is too strong, but to watch it. By the way, just as a quick aside, why is Anthony Joshua a fraud? I think that fraud is too strong,

but I just don't think, I think he's a guy who looks like a fighter, but I'm not sure he's a fighter. You know, I think he was exposed in that fight and I think he's been exposed a couple of times. And, you know, as I kind of roll back the tape, I wonder what, you know, maybe Vladimir Klitschko was more shot

than I thought he was in that fight. Because that was the one where I thought, boy, this guy's for real, Cause I love Vladimir Klitschko. But I just, I thought it was like, just kind of took his, took his soul away in that fight. And you know, if you're a great fighter, that's not what happens. So fraud's too strong. And I should, and you don't want to, and I just violated one of my own rules area because everybody who steps through the ropes or into the, you know, into the octagon or whatever you want to say like they've all got bigger balls than me you know i and i learned that lesson years ago like so i take that back you know they're all way more brave

than i am so but yeah i think he's a bit of a creation and i that's not he's not the first one in combat sports history or boxing history he's not the first guy that's been kind of built up to be something that maybe he isn't. But, you know, like I've been around before the first time I saw Tyson Fury in a, on a fight in Quebec city of all places. I had no idea.

I just, I still not sure what I was looking at. And I thought this is, these are, this is ridiculous. Guy doesn't look like he has a muscle on his body. He's awkward. He's huge,

but he doesn't look like he has any power. And I've come to believe that the guy's kind of a genius. You know,, but he doesn't look like he has any power. And I've come to believe that the guy's kind of a genius. I think he's an amazing fighter. As you mentioned earlier, you've been in the newspaper business or you were in the newspaper business for about 30 or so years, Globe and Mail, one of the most respected papers in Canada. I'm wondering how you feel about the newspaper business now.

It's been obviously much discussed, the demise. You're now working for Rogers Digital TV, radio, obviously not in the newspaper business. Do you think there will ever be a day where newspapers come back and are as important or is that period just dead? Will that never happen again? I think they're important in a lot of ways still. It's funny. It's exactly 10 years ago this month that I left the paper. So I've been out of the newspaper business for 10 years now, which time flies. And I left in large part because I wanted, I kind of saw what was going to happen to sports, you know, in a newspaper like that, like the globe, which is a, you know, a general kind of a business oriented, politically oriented newspaper, kind of the Canadian New York times in a lot of ways. But I saw that sports was not going to be a priority there. And I could have been the last man standing,

but I thought that wouldn't be much fun. So that's why I left. I think newspapers still are incredibly important if they can find any kind of a business model, you know, not in the sports sense, but important, you know, in terms of freedom and, you know, holding our political leaders to account and all of the important functions of journalism, you know, holding our political leaders to account and all of the important functions of journalism, you know, investigative work that's still being done. There's still great work being done, but, you know, I worry about the business model and I worry what would happen if they're not there. You know, they obviously on a local level in a lot of places,

they're gone. Right. And, and that's, that's a tragedy. And, and I, and I think it's really bad for democracy and that's that's a tragedy and um and i and i think it's really bad for democracy and that's you know these are tough times for democracy anyway so i hope that the long answer but i hope they hang in in terms of sports um that content's going to come is coming from other places now and that's not going to change when i think of ethics when i think of doing things the right way journalistically i think of you that's why I hold you to such high regard, in such high regard. And I'm wondering if at any point you felt compromised or, look, I'll be honest, there are times where I felt this way and I've made my mistakes and I'll be the first to admit it. But you do work for Rogers, who owns the Blue Jays. Have you ever been in a position where you were told not to say something? Don't be critical. Hey, try not to, you know,

has it ever been tough? I would imagine it has been, maybe not for you, but for others. Have you ever felt like, you know, this is flying a little too close to the sun? No, honestly, no. But, you know, like I said, this is a unique situation.

Like Rogers, for people who don't know, is this massive tech company. It's a, you know, don't know is this massive tech company uh it's a you know a you know a phone company and an internet company and um and it and it has a media wing and a sports wing which includes ownership of the blue jays and includes sports net the all sports network that i work for i used to have more magazines and things like that but they've mostly gotten rid of them they're mostly out of the media business except for sports uh you know like i i think if um you know i think if i had a public opinion about uh you know uh one of the mergers

they're involved in or uh the the uh the cell spectrum or some of the stuff that really matters to their business um they probably wouldn't be thrilled about it but you know in sports um the churn the conversation around a team positive or negative is part of the content right so you know if the jays are bad and you know that rogers also owns a piece of the leafs and a piece of the raptors and a piece of toronto fc through maple leaf sports and entertainment but that conversation about you know fire the coach or get rid of this guy or, you know, why aren't they signing this free agent? That's part of the product, you know? And so I'm not sure there's anything you could say that they would actually object to on a corporate level because, you know, none of that's bad for them.

And, you know, even sometimes that would extend to even people talking about, you know, the owners should spend more money. But no, no, there's never been any pushback. But I think the reason, Ariel, is because, honest to God, I'm not sure it means anything. You know, like it's not like you're pulling down the pillars around you. It's just chatter. So I'm not sure there's anything I could say about the sports part of the company that would raise a red flag. I honestly don't. I wish a few MMA promoters would subscribe to that line of thinking as well.

You know, but I guess the one time where it could have gotten a little bit dicey was when Alex Anthopoulos left and Shapiro came in and the fans were unhappy and all this stuff. And I understand, I think you have a very good relationship with Shapiro, and it seems like it's all paid off. I mean, look at the team now, look at the product now, but even in those early days where everyone seemed to love Alex and he's coming off that 2015 season and Shapiro comes in and it felt like he wasn't truly invested in the market in Canada. He's this guy coming from Cleveland. You never felt like you couldn't say one thing or the other. Well, I've got a really good relationship with Alexlex too so i consider alex a friend and i got to know him very you know and i and i was his

friend when the fans wanted to run him out of town on a rail by the way you know which was about six months before he became a hero welcome to sports right right right but no i when when then like i just tried what i tried to do in that circumstance was be fair. You know, they hired Mark Shapiro as the president of the team to replace Paul Beeston, who was retiring. It didn't have anything to do with Alex per se. And, you know, I think that, you know, Mark Shapiro's a guy who's well-respected in the baseball world. And they wanted to modernize the business of the team

and do a bunch of stuff that wasn't, you know, the Jays were being run in a lot of ways that the way they've been run for 40 years and they wanted to modernize it. And I, so I just kind of wanted to take him, you know, when Mark arrived, I'm one of the first guys that sat down and talked to him. I just kind of wanted to take him for what he was, you know, understand him, be fair fair just like i would to anybody else and there was a lot of knee-jerk stuff because there's an emotional component because you know 2015 was it was 2015 as i say the team turned around they had the crazy trade deadline they ended up in the postseason alex who's a canadian becomes a national hero and then you know he decides he can't work for the new guys or the new guys decide that he can work for them only under certain circumstances which is you know kind of normal like new boss hires their own guy like i've seen

it a million times in sports and had they not made the postseason that year everybody would have said good riddance let's get a new guy in here and let's change things up they haven't been they didn't want a world series since 93 you know they hadn't been in the postseason since 93 so you know it i thought i thought mark actually walked into an emotional dynamic that was not of his own doing. And then you got a bunch of knee jerk stuff about, you know, Oh,

they don't know Toronto or they don't care, or he seems cold or, you know, that's, that's stuff. That's just throwing stuff from the outside and not trying to actually figure it out. It's lazy.

And I, and I get it. It's like fire the couch, right? Anybody can write, fire the couch. It's the cheapest sentence in sports, Fire the coach. And I thought I owed him a little bit more than that, you know, and journalistically. So yeah, I just tried to be fair, try to get to know the guy a little bit,

try and figure out what he's trying to do. You're one of the last remaining journalists that I can think of who is not on social media, no Twitter, no Instagram. And I know you've talked in the past about some people trying to nudge you in that direction. How is this possible? How have you been? And I commend you. And I think it's probably great for your mental health and your sanity to not be on there. But how have you resisted the urge of signing up unless you have a burner account that no one knows about? No, I do not. I've been accused, but I do not. And you know, there's times when I probably, you know, not for my own, you know, kind of self-promotion, but in terms of news, like there's times that I, you know, it probably would have been a good thing to be there just to know what was happening five seconds faster than I would otherwise.

But the decision actually, you know, this is before, like early days of this kind of stuff, and actually goes back pre-social media to stuff like, you know, even at the newspaper when it was about, you know, we want you to interact with readers, right? We're going to have comment sections. We want you to interact with readers. And I always argued, and this is very old school that, that I was not the product, right? The product was what I created. And I put this thing out there, which in that newspaper case would be a story of one form or another, um, text and people reacted to the product. They reacted to the thing I did. Not me. I'm not it. That's separate from me. And I want that to be separate from me. That's real. React to it, love it, hate it. But I don't want a personal relationship with the people who consume that necessarily. I might. They might be great people and I might get to know people who read me and all of that stuff, but that's not me.

And what I found was that blurring of the idea that, you know, I'm going to interact. No, what I have to say is here in this thing. And again, like it or don't like it, but that's my job, you know, and that's my skill is in creating that thing. It's not in being, um, you know, I, I don't want to be, it's not a public forum about me. So that's kind of the principle and that's a very old school, right? And that's the back of the day when people, if they wanted to complain about something you wrote, would have to write a letter and actually think about it and send it to somebody. And then the paper would publish it. Um, this kind of instant reaction no you suck uh etc etc i don't think it's good for anybody i don't think it's edifying in any way and um now you could argue that what i do

now i am more of the product myself because i'm but you know i kind of think i'm you know in terms of i'm doing broadcast work and i'm actually on screen or on on mic, I'm a performer. You know, if somebody, you know, I'm not comparing myself to a movie star, but if, you know, the movie that somebody is in and the performance in the movie is not the person, it's a thing, it's something separate from them. And I want that separation. And I want that separation from my life. I don't know how people now who live, guys who live on Twitter,

who seem to be there all the time, and that's part of the deal, is that they're commenting on everything. I don't want to comment on everything. I want to go away and do something else. I want to go hear a band. I want to go out for dinner. I want to travel. I want to go fish.

I don't want to be on call all the time, and I don't think I owe that to anybody. So it's selfish to a point, but it all comes with that. The core idea is that the thing is not me, and I am not the thing. And if you like or don't like what I do, you have every right to talk about it and say what you want about it, but that's not me. So to that point, you've we said 15 16 17 books um and to the best of my knowledge none of them have been about you none of them have been about your career it's been about

guys like brian burke or facing ali bobby orr and i have to admit the one i want to read the most is about you that's why i have you on here Will you ever write a book about yourself and your career? Never. Why? I've hardly ever used the word I in print because I was, you know, that's the way, that was the way you did it. You weren't supposed to, you know, again, I think is cheap, right? Anybody can write that. And, you know, I've written very few personal things ever professionally.

You know, I wrote one piece years ago when my kids were, my two sons were little kids. You know, they're adults now, and I took them to see Ali in Berrien Springs, to Ali's farm in Berrien Springs. I took them to meet Ali, and I wrote about my own kids in that visit, and it was a very sentimental piece for me for, you know, obvious reasons, and there was only one way to write it. But aside from that, I've almost never used the word I in print and uh or you know whatever we are now non-print um you know my one of my my sports writing heroes was a guy named

who was a long-time columnist at the Toronto Star and a real mentor to me in a lot of ways and very kind to me even though we worked for you know competitive papers and um he worked well into his 80s and he'd covered everything you know so i'd be sick of a fight with him and say you know milt you ever seen anything like this and he'd say well you know at the first marciano walcott fight you know or yeah you know when bobby thompson hit the shot heard around the world because he was there he was there so you know and milt wrote there's been a lot of cheesy columnists over the years who wrote their you know their farewell my my farewell to sports and my career in sports um guys who couldn't carry his notepad and milt donnell's last column

was about larry walker it was the story of the day and he handed it into the star and said i'm done wow and i always thought that's, you know, again, it's an old-fashioned way of doing it, and I know there are other ways to do it, but I thought that's, to me, that's how you do it. File your last column about the story of the day, do your job, hit your deadline, and get the hell out. So, yeah, no, I'm never going to write a memoir.

Wow. Well, I respect it. I would love to read it. I respect it. That story you just mentioned about your kids going to meet Ali, that sounds like the most unbelievable trip. How close were you to Ali? I mean, I would imagine he doesn't let everyone come with his kids to go meet him. And what year is this?

It's a funny one because he – you can find the story somewhere. It is out there if anybody wants to read it. It was in the Globe. And I published it in a collection of sports writing that – not just my sports writing but a lot of big canadian sports writing um i i got to know davis miller who wrote a book called the tao of muhammad ali you know it's a really interesting character davis and he was he had spent a lot of time around ali and he told me that you know when ali was living in berrien springs which is kind of just just a little bit east of Chicago. He said, Ali, people showed up at Ali's door all the time.

And he just let him in because he liked people. And he liked, he didn't like, you know, he liked company. He liked people and he liked being Muhammad Ali. So I was actually at a wedding in Chicago. I was the best or in a wedding party for a guy who, along with Lennox Lewis, you know, a friend of mine, John Horner, was a lawyer who was Lennox Lewis' lawyer for a long time. And we were driving back on our way back to Ontario. And I saw the sign for Berrien Springs. And I said to my wife, you know, I told her the story.

I said, you don't take 20 minutes. Why don't we go and just see? So we drove off. We go to the little town Berrien Springs, go to like a gas station and say, where's Muhammad Ali's house? And the guy said, oh, yeah, it's right down the road. So, you know, drove down the road and there's a big gate and a security thing. It's all locked up, obviously. And there's a little, you know, intercom and a button.

And it says M Ali, like almost in one. I don't know if it was one of those dino type things, but it was like, you know, one of those little labels. M Ali. So hit the note. And, uh, uh, the woman's voice on the other side says,

hello. And I said, hi, um, I'm from Canada. Um, I, you know,

I grew up worshiping Ali and I just wanted to say hello. And, and the gate opens. And so we drive up the driveway and, uh, we, we have this lovely house and there's there's actually a carload of people from germany driving out when we drive in so that tells you something

yeah and uh and ali's wife comes out to greet us out back and she said oh yeah he's in the you know he's in the the uh office here come on in and see him so i took my eldest son who was i don't know four then i guess my wife and my other son was a baby then just waited, held back for a second. And we walked in and we're led into this room and he was sitting in a, you know, big easy chair. And he was, you know, this is Parkinson's alley. He was not in great shape, but he said, you know, where are you from? And we, you know, kind of told him my story. My kid played around and, you know, got his TV channel changer and turned on his TV and

did all kinds of little kid stuff. And we, you know, we had just kind of a quiet few minutes. And then I kind of thought it's maybe time to go now. It just felt appropriate. They were preparing his wife and her mother were preparing a meal in the kitchen. So we walked out and went out to the driveway and Ali came out with us and he was you know he was shuffling and um and you know my son was in kind of a knights in armor phase at that point he had a plastic sword and Ali got the sword took the sword from him and started sword fighting with my son wow and and my wife was there and Ali

had just adopted he they had just adopted their son, Asad, who was Ali's youngest kid. And so his wife brought the baby out and Ali had the baby in his hands and his hands were shaking. And then he handed the baby to my wife and he said, watch my feet to my kids, watch my feet. And he did this trick, which he used to do magic tricks, right? It was part of his thing. And he did this where he it made it look like he was levitating wow and it looked like he rose off the ground you know so you know and it's you got to imagine again very frail ali with the tremors and all of the kind of symptoms of parkinsonism and but in this moment he goes very still and then it looks like he rises off the ground

and my kid you know nathaniel my oldest was i i never all the whole drive back how did that man fly how did that man fly and i said you know it's magic because it was magic wow it's one of the greatest moments of my life because it was pure and perfect and you know i i wasn't there as a journalist like i i had to think about writing the know i i wasn't there as a journalist like i i had to think about writing the piece because i wasn't there as a journalist and i hadn't identified myself as a journalist but i decided that because i was really going to write i was really writing about me you know and and my feelings and and being a father and other stuff it wasn't an interrogation of muhammad ali or an expose of of Muhammad Ali. It was an homage to Muhammad Ali.

And I had to think twice and three times about whether I would do it, but I'm glad I did. Did you get a chance to tell him what he meant to you? Yeah, I did. Although, you know, I'm not like, I was like the millionth person that day probably who had told him that. Right. And, you know, and then I, look,

I've spent a lot of time thinking about ali my whole life and writing about him uh and writing the book you know the face facing ali where i've talked to people guys who fought him and you know i had i've a soft spot had a great soft spot in my heart for joe frazier who hated ali and i think ali's a complicated figure you know i think he's not i like part of what I kind of push back on and you know maybe the piece does the opposite was the kind of sentimentalization of Ali you know kind of turning him into this kind

of harmless silent Buddha figure that's not what he was you know and he had flaws you know as a person you know I remember I did a thing with Layla once and you know talked about that a little bit and yeah he's you know he had feet of clay like the rest of us. Right.

But, you know, he had an aura, you know, he really, there really was. I was in his presence a few other times in my life, but yeah, that one with my kids, you know, because it was my kids. Yeah. Wow. It gives me chills hearing you talk about that. I can't imagine what that was like. These days you're doing more

talking, right? More on the radio, more on TV, less writing. As an old school guy, how do you feel about that? It's way easier doing this stuff than writing. You know what? Everything's easier than writing. So I don't miss deadlines. I don't miss grinding it out in a press box after my six cup of coffee, trying to hit a deadline off a ball game or something like that. I don't miss grinding it out in a press box after my sixth cup of coffee, trying to hit a deadline off a ball game or something like that. I don't miss that at all. I'm still, you know, I kind of write what I want to write now. So I'm working on another book with Jordan Tutu. I did a book with him, which was an important book, I think,

in a lot of ways in terms of his heritage and identity and some of the issues around the first nations communities, um, and about hockey. But, uh, so I'm working with him on stuff. I'm doing stuff I want to do now really, uh, on the writing side and I'm having fun with the broadcast part of it. I'm, you know, I'm probably not going to do it forever, but, uh, you know, it keeps me engaged and, uh, I get to work with a lot of talented people. I work, I do, we shoot some, we do some features and documentaries as well.

I really like working, you know, working with a great producer and a great shooter on a documentary is really, I, I love working with people who are super talented and I get to work with young people. You know, it's kind of the opposite.

When I was at the newspaper, it was just aging out. And, you know, in this, in this gig, everybody's way younger than me. And I,

and I, and I love that. So yeah, it's fun. But I, you know, I, I have no desire to go back to grinding out five columns a week. In addition to the great writing, the, the work on the radio TV, I still lament the fact that the lead is no longer a podcast. I love that podcast. And I would urge anyone, I mean, they kind of stand still, they're evergreen. So anyone out there, look up The Lead and those episodes, you and Jeff Blair are tremendous. I was honored to be on one episode. Your essay work on television, I think will also be a part of your legacy. I think you're the best at it. Canada, US, Germany, England, no one does it like you. And the 2010 one, which I'm sure you hear

about all the time, to me is kind of the gold standard. In fact, I was asked a few times throughout my career at this point to do stuff like that, whether it was for Fox or ESPN, and I 100% tried to copy your style, came nowhere near as good. And I even told him, like, I don't think, like, to me, you're the gold standard, and I can't come close to it. And then, you know, at that point, I don't want to even try, because I view you as the top and like what you did in 2010, captured for anyone that doesn't know in 2010 Winter Olympics, the only Olympics I had the chance to cover at this point in my life. It's in Vancouver, it started off horribly. And then by the end, I don't know if Canada ever felt more proud of itself. And it ends with Sidney Crosby in The Golden Goal. How often do you hear about that? And by the way,

when's the last time you watched that? I just watched it last night. And it still gives me chills and makes me cry every time, especially with the dude drinking the beer coming through. It's just an amazing thing what you did there. So I'm just curious about that. Yeah, it was a moment. It was a moment. um and again I had to kind of resist some of my you know impulses to kind of to to deconstruct it you know I did sometimes it's not a good idea to deconstruct everything you got to kind of let it let things happen that's something I've learned over the years let let things happen and go with them and you know and allow yourself to feel what's going on around you and that was a very very powerful time in uh to be in Vancouver and to experience that and you know I've been to a million Olympics before that and you know I had no problem being cynical about the

IOC and you know I was in Atlanta which was horrible and um so yeah I had to kind of let free myself to feel that stuff and do it and to perform you know that's the first time I really felt like I thought of myself as a performer with the help from some people I worked with who said, look, this isn't a read. You know, you've got to perform this. But, yeah, it changed. I'll never do anything that has more of an impact in this country than that. You know, the 30 million people almost, you know watching tv that night here and uh they all saw it and uh you know that music that the heroes out of the band that the music that's on there um they're good friends of mine um you know i every time i hear him play the song

you know it brings me and people come up to me all the time you know still 11 years ago right more than 11 years ago people still come up to me and talk to me about it so uh yeah i just i'm kind of glad i got to channel it you know i felt like i was channeling something for people and uh you know then they're not all you know like everything i've done is not like that for sure um but i i think that in that unique moment you know and i was working with a guy named matt dunn who i gotta shout out to because he was the producer on that piece um that was a collaboration in every way do you think that changed the course of your career was that a turning point in your career oh yeah yeah that's what that's what was the beginning of the end of my newspaper career right to be honest because

you know i was in vancouver i'd been seconded to work for the broadcast consortium i wasn't really working for the globe but the globe was owned at that point by the same people who by bell and you know after that i was you know offered the opportunity to kind of move over and become a multi-platform guy with what was then bell globe media which was tsn that all fell apart because for a bunch of reasons before it ever happened but that was my first step out of the door of the newspaper really. And, and, uh, yeah, that's kind of really, that was the end of my newspaper life. And I, uh, you know, Keith Pally and Scott Moore and the guys who allowed me to make the transition. I owe them a lot because it's been great for me. Were you in New York city on nine 11?

No, I was not there on nine 11, but I was there for the first sporting events that happened after 9-11, which would be the Trinidad Bernard Hopkins fight and a Giants game. Trinidad Bernard Hopkins fight happened on, I'm thinking the 28th of September. Does that sound right? Yeah. It was really raw. It was really raw. And again, I look, I'm not going to pretend I experienced it because I didn't, but I did. Remember, I wouldn't fly. I just couldn't fly to new york i couldn't bring myself to do it i took the train wow i remember coming out of penn station and walking up through into the city that

you know well i now know what a deserted city looks like again because we've just gone through it right but think of that and all of those handmade posters of people who are missing. All the walls of Penn Station just plastered with those. And then walking out into New York that I couldn't imagine, didn't recognize. And the night of that fight, I remember they brought out... That fight was supposed to happen, I think, the 13th or something. And then it was pushed back, but it was the first thing that happened and they brought out a bunch of firefighters and cops who they you know gave tickets to and the whole place everybody crying you know it was

you know there's a lot of water in the bridge I know there's a lot of people now who don't really have a memory of it which is kind of freaks me out but yeah it was it was it was a time and at the giants game out in the meadowlands the old old giant stadium there was a moment where uh you know it's on the flight path to newark right and uh and a plane came over really low over the stadium right before the game and the whole place just like people froze people froze you know there was honest to god fear

and you know because you just didn't know now we know now we know how the story ends then you didn't know how the story was going to end and then the world series that fall of course which was you know helicopters over the stadium you know all kinds of anti-bombing stuff around the stadium.

The president going out to throw out the first pitch with, you know, insane security. The Olympics after that, the Super Bowl after that. It was, but yeah, that first, I say walking out of Penn Station that day that, you know, less than three weeks after, I'll never forget. Speaking of America, I've always wondered, have you ever considered or were you ever close to coming over to the States to work here for any considerable amount of time? You know, no one ever asked. My dad was an American, so I could have.

But, you know, no one asked. That blows my mind. No one asked? No, no. Really? People don't pay that much attention to us up here. You know, I remember when the Nationals started. And I remember thinking, boy, I want to be the boxing writer for the Nationals. That would be the greatest gig.

I think Sam Dinellon got that gig. He was a really good boxing writer from Philly. But I always thought that would be be like, I'll drop everything. I quit the globe. I'll go for that. Now, of course, that would have been a very bad idea because I would have had one great year with the, and then the national imploded. Right.

But, uh, that, yeah, that, that's the only time I've been really thought about it. I, I, I like Canada. You know, I like being a Canadian. I like, I like living here. I get, I get to experience all the great stuff about the States. Um, and I get to live here. That's good for me. Do you have any regrets, any things in your career that you wish you would have done differently? Yeah, I'm sure there's stuff like, there's not a glaring one. There's some stuff I, I, you know, I wrote some stuff that I think was cruel and it shouldn't have been. I just, I think as you, it's funny, you know, when you're, when you're cocky and you're young and you,

you know, you feel like you got it and you know, this guy I'm going to sound like an old dude on a bench here, but you know, you feel like you can say anything about anybody you want and you know, I'm right, you're wrong. I've got the platform. And, you know, and the kind of being provocative for the sake of being provocative. I don't, it's not like something I did a lot to be honest but there's a there's a few i take back that i just thought you know i was wrong and i was wrong to do that about to be you know to be cruel to somebody um like i told you like i you know at the beginning of the conversation when

we're talking about anthony joshua like i i wrote one of the one of the real pivotal experiences for me this is weird I was at a fight Daniel Alon remember the light heavyweight champion right he was a Canadian so he's fighting I think it's after he lost to Leonard and he's fighting at a kind of this mega nightclub up in Kitchener Ontario which is not far from where I live here it was just a cheeseball fight right and and he he's from there and they brought in a guy to lose guy from west virginia to lose to him right by definition that was the guy's job obviously and if you know boxing you know that's how it works and um so donnie lalon you know dispatches this guy in seven rounds and the guy

looks you know he's not in shape and he's got kind of trunks don't fit and you know he's got nobody real in his corner he's got and we're I'm writing the story after the fight and a guy came up on this little tiny press, like press rose four of us and said, I just want you guys, you guys are all going to say that this guy was a bum, right? That he's a tomato king. I'm going to tell you something about him. And he talked about this guy and about his life, you know, and about his wife had left them and he didn't have any money. And he took the fight on short notice and he drove himself up there from again, Indiana or somewhere like that. Like one of those places

where those guys come from. And, and he just said, I think you guys should, I just wanted you guys to know that. And that, you know, because that taught me a lot, right. That, that you, there's always another side and there's always a human being there. You know, even those, these guys, we turn these guys into kind of Superman. There's, there's always a human being there you know even those these guys we turn these guys into kind of supermen there's there's always a human being in there somewhere and you know they're not all great people it's just like if you walk down the street you're going to get a wide range of human beings sorry about that i'm just going to deal with that old school i have a lamb I love that I love that but um yeah it no it taught me something and you know like that's what informed that book when i when i did facing ali that's what informed that book what about the other guys like i i can write

about like i want to write about jean-pierre coupement you know um i i want to write about brian london the guys who were you know joke guys right guys didn't belong in the same ring with ali i want to write about those guys because there's got to be a story there and they're human. And I want to understand what they felt like, you know? So that, you know, again, long answer, but I hope I've developed some empathy over the years, over those, you know, nearly 40 years. And, you know, maybe I lacked a bit of that at certain points early in my career. So that would be my regret. Two last things. One is personal.

Most people won't care about this, but I deeply care about this. Do you think in our lifetime we will see baseball return to Montreal? What about this? Yes. You do? Yes. Really? Yeah.

It might be this weird split season thing, man, but it's – no, it's – You're that confident? I don't want to speak for anybody, but I know some of the guys in Montreal. I know what their level of confidence is. Wow. If they're that confident, I'm that confident. And I think it's going to be... I think you're going to hear something before the end of this year

about a stadium in Griffintown. Come on. And yeah, I think this thing's way down the road. And I think there's political to hear something before the end of this year about a stadium in Griffintown. Come on. And yeah, I think this thing's way down the road and I think there's political support for it there. And I think a downtown outdoor stadium in the summertime in Montreal, you're ready to move back, buddy.

I have told my wife who's also from Montreal, the moment this happens, we're packing up. It's been a good 20 years here, but I'm going home. I would love to work that, that year that like, I would love to be a beat writer for that team that team meant so much to me you're blowing my mind with your confidence here no i really like i normally i would look at if i didn't if i know if i didn't know anybody involved in this process i would be as skeptical

as anyone because it doesn't make any sense to me still i like i still don't understand the you know 8181 thing i don't get that i don't get that why would any player agree to that or why would the players association agree well you know that's well maybe because these guys might maybe they'll spend more than a raise on payroll right but uh but i know the folks in montreal and they're serious right these are not just some chumps they're they're serious people and they have serious resources and they they have believed in this thing for a long time and their level of confidence has not wavered so yeah i think stuff's coming so you might have to you know might have to call a real estate agent wow that is exciting stuff and i hope the the

jays are supportive of it i know a lot of fans were upset that they voted in favor of the contraction but i think this would be good for baseball in canada oh i think so too more is better you know i like whether they're whether they stay in the american league or the american the contraction, but I think this would be good for baseball in Canada. I think so too. More is better. Whether they stay in the American League or the American League East, I don't know. They might flip up to the National League. I think more is better. I think there's room for both.

This is a great time for baseball in Canada. The audience has turned over. It's not just a remember-when crowd. There's a young vital baseball audience in Canada right now. Yeah, I think there's loads of room. And I think, well, again, you know Montreal better than me. But I spent a lot of time covering the Expos back in the day

in that horrible stadium. But that thing could have survived. You know the myriad issues, the myriad reasons why it didn't survive but it wasn't because people didn't care about baseball people did care about baseball last thing do you think you will be in again thank you so much for this i've enjoyed every second i love talking to you thank you uh do you think you will be that guy who hands in the last column at 80 and walks away do you want to do this until you're you're you're 80 you know red fisher a legend in montreal you know i think of him like he was there till 90 something in my mind do you think you'll be

that guy or do you think you'll end relatively soon and enjoy your final days i don't yeah i don't think i'll be in a press box you know like doing grinding it out like red did like that's that's a different gig um you know i i'm happy to pay me to do what i do now and that i can enjoy what i do and um you know i'll continue to do it until do now and that I can enjoy what I do. And, um, you know, I'll continue to do it until either they don't want me or I don't enjoy it anymore. I always have side projects on the go and I always have,

you know, I still got a bit of the freelancer in me, so I've always got a bit of a side hustle, whether you're on one of one sort or another. So I think whatever happens, I'll, you know, I'll keep doing that.

Um, yeah, I, I think I'll always write, you know, I think I'll always write. I hope I can always, I think I'll always write. I think I'll always write. I hope I can always write. But I don't think it'll be as abrupt as what Milt did.

Of course, Milt just went and played blackjack. He lived to 101, by the way. Oh my gosh. Yeah, he was playing blackjack until he was 100. So he went to the casino. So he had a plan. But yeah, I would like to think that I could, you know,

take my kind of elder statesman status and, you know, kind of play off that a little bit and enjoy it and still get to go to some games and still get to go to spring training and the stuff that I really, that I really love. And maybe get to sit ringside every once in a while. Oh, that'd be great. Yes. I remember,

I think the first time we met in person was at Mayweather McGreggregor in las vegas yes you were with uh arash madani i thought okay this is a big event steven brunt has crossed the border to cover this crazy circus fight i hope that you will write forever i hope that you'll be around forever i was trying to explain um the guys working on this podcast with me about you you know they're american please forgive them i was like this, this is Bob Costas. This is Hunter Thompson. This is the voice of Canadian sports, in my opinion. And what you've done for people like me to show the way on what it means to be a good

journalist, I can't thank you enough for that. What a career. And I was telling our mutual friend Ryan from Sportsnet, who helped set this up, about just like how much you meant to me. And for you to agree to come on early days in this project of mine really means a lot. So I wish you nothing but the best, continued success. Keep on doing what you're doing. Please, more essays. I tell Ryan all the time, I'm like, Raptors win. I need a Stephen Brunt essay to know how I should feel about this.

You know, pandemic hits. I need a Brunt essay to tell me how I should feel about this. That's what you do. You explain to me how I should feel about sports. And that's the ultimate compliment. How about baseball returns to Montreal? That might work. Please. Can you make me a promise that you will write that essay when it comes? Oh, yeah. That one I will promise you. Awesome. Thank you, Stephen. I appreciate it. Good luck with the new show on the radio, which started on Monday. I wish you guys the best and continued success. Again, thank you so much for this. Thanks, Eric. Always a pleasure. Hope to see you in person soon.

Absolutely. Thank you. All right. So that was great. Again, I could have talked to him for well over an hour. Great stories, great insight. The Muhammad Ali story was just amazing. I can't imagine what that was like. And I have to say, I am giddy after hearing his take on the state of baseball in Montreal. The confidence in which he spoke about the Expos returning to La Belle Provence is making me very, very excited right now. And so that's one that I've been wanting to do for quite some time. I am loving this so much. I can't properly put into words just how much fun it is to book these guests, to reach out to these guests, to talk to people who I never really had the outlet, the proper outlet to do so without any restrictions. It's just really fun for me, and I hope you've been enjoying it as well.

You can watch all of these interviews on my YouTube channel, youtube.com slash Ariel Helwani. You can subscribe there. I hope you do. I appreciate it if you do. And of course, you can subscribe to this podcast wherever you get your podcasts, whether it's Apple, Spotify, Amazon, Google, et cetera. Please rate, review, comment, subscribe,

follow, all those things and more. And the plan from here on out is to drop one of these every Thursday morning. And thus far, the reception and the feedback has been great. And of course, we're going to go outside of the sports world and outside of the media world and all that stuff. But for now, I'm just going to, you know, cross off some of the names that have been of interest to me on my list, my personal interview bucket list, and we'll see where this bad boy goes. So excited to be doing this. So excited to have you guys along for the ride. Excited to have the

lovely feathers along for the ride as well. And excited to have my little small production team along for the ride too, who I appreciate very much. Thank you for listening. Thank you to Steven Brunt. I wish him the best. I hope you now understand why I think so highly of him. And I appreciate you all for your continued support. I'll talk to you next week. Take care. © transcript Emily Beynon