The Ariel Helwani Show - The MMA Beat: Dissecting recent media issues, Dana White’s press conferences, old war stories, more

Episode Date: September 23, 2025

The MMA Beat is back! Ariel Helwani, Petesy Carroll, Chuck Mindenhall, and Ben Fowlkes discuss journalistic topics including the controversy around platforming Andrew Tate (04:35), Dana White's media strategy and approach to recent press conferences (18:31), the current state of MMA media (25:31), building relationships with subjects, in this case fighters (44:47), on and off the record conversations (59:11), and more.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Eriya-Hawani Show. Hello and welcome to a brand new edition of The Beat on this fourth week of September, 2025. Hello, again, everyone. I'm area Hawani insider in New York City studio. And yes, you might be asking yourself, what is the beat? And perhaps you're even saying to yourself, why does that intro sound so familiar? In fact, I haven't said that kind of intro in quite some time because that's how I used to start a show way back when called the MMA beat. You may recall, this was a show that we did for many, many years. And every now and again, I get people reaching out to me saying, when are you going to bring back the MMA beat?

When are you going to bring back the MMA beat? Well, the times they have changed, and our roles have changed and our jobs have changed, but I've always sort of kept it in the back of my mind and also very much aware that we don't just cover MMA around these parts. We cover all things, combat sports. And so I'm here to say that it won't be a weekly offering, maybe in every few months, at least for now, and maybe that will change and evolve as well. But I want to bring back this show, because I've always loved the sports reporters.

That was the genesis of the M.A. Beat. and then I took that idea and brought it to ESPN and did the MMA reporters. And so now I just want to go back to the beat and I want to talk about media. I want to talk about journalism. And in particular, covering combat sports in the year 2025 because it has never been more interesting and fascinating than now, at least in my opinion. And we here at Uncrowned, I think do a pretty damn good job of covering it all. And so I have called upon some of my old friends to talk in this particular episode about

the current state of MMA and combat media. And so without further ado, let us get into it, shall we? First up, he is, of course, the mayor of the nutmeg state. He is the man in the hat. You know him, you love him. He's the one and only Chuck Minow. Hello, Chuck.

How are you? I am well, man. How long has it been? It must have been, what, five years since we've done one of these? It has been if my math is correct, seven. How about that? Wow. Wow, that's a long time, man. I get asked about it a lot, too. So when you said you wanted to try this, I was like, let's get it done, man.

Yes, and we used to do it in person in that lovely studio. Shout out to the man in the shirt, Jeff Wagenheim, Luke Thomas, as well, and perhaps we'll get there. But this works best for all involved, because we're international now. And with that in mind, we do say hello to the patron saint of the Emerald Dial, the host of the critically acclaimed podcast, The Crack, Mr. P. T. Carroll. I wasn't sure if that was like a freeze frame there because you were just so stoic. But hello, Pee, how are you? I'm just blinded by these bright lights of the beach.

And I mean, here I am finally. One of my favorite shows for so many years are now on the panel. We made it, baby. First time? Yeah, I mean, I thought it was just you lads the whole time as far as I knew. Well, there were, you know, a few times some guest appearances, even some celebrity appearances. Shout out to the great Skylar Aston. But yes, it is very good to have you here.

And we go in the time machine for our final panelist. He, as many of you know, is the original co-host of the critically acclaimed MMA-rated radio program, which you all loved so very much for about a couple of months back in 2008. He is also currently the co-host of the beloved co-main event podcast. He is the pride of Missoula, Montana, the one and only Ben folks is here. Hello, Ben. How are you? I'm great.

So, I mean, I enjoyed you guys all going down memory lane talking about that show that I was never invited on. that it seemed fun. It seemed like you guys were always having a good time. I was, you know, the kid upstairs in his bedroom watching out the window as the neighbor kids are all partying in their swimming pool all summer long, but it's nice to have made it here at last. Well, well, I talk about the past. You were out there enjoying the blue skies of Missoula, Montana. You were doing your thing. You were, you were not available to us. But now here we are with the advent of Zoom machines and the internet. We could all do this together. And there is a lot to discuss. I'm actually very excited about this. There is no topic that I enjoy discussing, listening, debating more than media,

journalism, and of course, in our sport, it's an ever-evolving thing. So let's get into it, my friends. And actually, this all kind of kicked off in my brain when I was asked a question a couple of weeks ago. It was an on-the-nose question, and it was about covering Andrew Tate. As you guys know, Andrew Tate, boxing, influencer, social media guy, very controversial, very polarizing. and this talk of him fighting Darren Till and someone said to me like hey you know I get that you have to report on this

but please please don't have them on the show don't platform Andrew Tate and I you know went on a not a rant but uh you know my answer was a little lengthy in saying like I don't view covering someone or even having someone on the show as platforming them if they're in the news if they're pertinent

if I want to talk to them about fighting because they're about to fight someone or they're in the fight business, that to me is not an endorsement of them. That's not me saying I agree with who they are and what they stand for. It's just they're in the news and that's what we do. We cover the news. In this day and age, I see that word platforming a lot, Chuck. And so I'll ask you first, am I wrong? Do you understand where I'm coming from? Or do you think that putting someone as controversial in the year 2025, the way media is consumed and the way people cover things these days, putting someone as polarizing and controversial as Andrew Tate is your version of endorsing them.

and if you don't believe in what they believe in, or if they have done some allegedly very bad things, you shouldn't be shining a spotlight on them, even if they are fighting. Well, I mean, how are you supposed to ignore them? You know, from your platform or what you're doing, right, you're bringing news to the public. You're talking about what is going to happen

or if people are going to fight, if his name, and I mean, obviously he is a name that we've been discussing a long time within this space is one of the names going to fight, especially against a guy like Darren Till, right, in a misfits venture that we've been reporting on before, the omission of talking about it would be more glaring than the talking about it. And the talking about it doesn't necessarily mean that you're endorsing it, right?

Like, this is just a, this is news, this is information you're passing it along. And it's for everybody else to basically, you know, it's for everybody else basically to say that they want this product, they don't want this product, or whatever it is. But to actually talk about the fight or if he's going to fight and all, that stuff unless we are giving our opinion, which we do a lot, it's just a fact, right? Like, if it's a fact, you're going to talk about it. We have a lot of these figures in this sport. I don't know if we have any, I don't know if we have as many that are as gloatingly,

like in a space like Andrews Day, where it's just kind of a guy who has had so many happy, bad headlines, like where he's for so long persisted as this misogynist and, you know, being in trouble for the sex trafficking and all the things that he's done. I don't know if we've had guys that are like this exactly. It is very different in that sense, but he does have the kickbox. I think he has an MMA fight. If he's going to be in a big venture like misfits, we are going to have to talk about it. That's just the truth of it. How do you feel about this, Ben? Because, and you don't have to specifically talk about Andrew Tate, because as, as Chuck just mentioned, there's a lot of questionable characters in this sport. And so where do you draw the line between

just covering and as people like to say these days, platforming. Yeah, well, I think that the important difference is sort of in the context of what we're doing and how we're presenting it because it's one thing to say, hey, this guy has signed a fight, he's going to fight this guy on this date. That's true. That is, if that's a fact, if that's news, then that's, there's no really case for avoiding even mentioning the person's name like he's Voldemort or something. However, if we're going to have him on the show, you know, or have him on like one of the shows where we're interviewing him, I do think then it's important to get the full context and not have him just come on as if, hey, you're just a fighter man who's here to fight Darren Till and that's why we're talking to you.

Because the full context is the reason they would want somebody like Andrew Tate to fight Darren Till is not because of his accolades as a fighter. It's because he's controversial. It's because he brings views. It's because people would be like, you're doing what? Which is kind of a big part of Misfits' whole brand, which I'm not necessarily knocking them for that in general because you've got to do something to stand out

in the crowded combat sports landscape. But that's why. It's not because they think Andrew Tate is such a good fighter that the world had been begging to see him and Darren Till fight. It's because of the controversy, and they hope that it'll bring views. So if you're going to have him on, if we're going to actually talk to him and engage with him,

I think the difference between platforming and actually doing journalism and talking to the guy is if we're addressing that context. Because you know how a lot of these people will like to do, especially if they can say, hey, I have pending legal action. I don't want to discuss. You know, people will do this stuff before interviews.

They'll say, yes, I'll do the interview, but you got to pretend that none of this other stuff that I don't want to talk about or is inconvenient for me to talk about. Just pretend it doesn't exist. That I think you can't do. If you're going to have the guy on, if we're going to engage with them directly, then I think we have to look at the full context and say,

hey, how do you feel about it that they are basically trying to use your controversy? Also, what the hell, man? It kind of seems like you can't go more than a couple months without there being some kind of like sexual assaults or something allegation against you. What's up with that? If we're going to have that conversation, I think you've got to have the full conversation. Otherwise, I think then you do veer into. where you're just given this guy an opportunity to use combat sports to try to whitewash his image.

You know, Ben brings up a great point, Pizzi, because I've been in this situation a lot. In fact, it just happened very recently. I'm sure you have been as well, where someone says, can you send me the questions in advance? Can you send me the topics in advance? I hate this. You know, I've talked many times about the time that I went in 2015 to interview John Jones in Albuquerque after his hit and run. This was about eight months after the hidden run, his first interview were there.

myself, Casey Leiden, Esther Lynn, we're in Albuquerque, it's the morning of the interview, we're having breakfast, and his PR person calls me up and says, we need the questions. And I'm like, what are you talking about? I don't have the questions. Like, I don't walk around with a sheet of questions, especially not on camera. It's ludicrous, and we got into a whole thing. What do you do when you're presented with this situation? We need the topics.

We need the questions. We know there's controversy. And if you don't give it to us, maybe there's no interview. I think you have to walk away at that point that we're trying to do what we're trying to do. you can't do it and especially like if we are framing this to this segment of the conversation around tate like i agree with ben i think you need to provide that context and i and i feel like there is a different reaction to him in the u.s and than there is in the uk and ireland honestly like i mean um children are being kind of alerted to what tate is over here in schools we know

adolescence after winning a lot of Emmys, I believe it is. It's a story about a child kind of being led astray by this toxic masculinity kind of thing. We see a lot of it over here. I don't think you can provide questions, especially to someone like this who was controversial. And as you've mentioned Ariel on the show, if he is going to fight in misfits, and I think misfits is the only place that could viably get away with putting on an Andrew Tate show. Honestly, like I said this, to Eddie Hearn just a couple of weeks ago in Belfast. I was like, you would be crucified for trying to put Andrew Tate

into a real boxing match because he is a real sport element as he said to me, well, Misfits isn't boxing. I think that's where he tried to exist. And to Ben's point about trying to provide him, like frame him as this ultra strong guy, I think as you've said before,

he would probably go in there and fight a can and look very good doing it. Like, this guy has a kickboxing record, a very good one at that. We've seen videos of them online beaten up random guys in Romania, like 10 at a time, but like just guys off the street. So I think that would be the thing we would have to be wary of. Like what is he trying to gain from this situation?

Like what is he trying to gain from going in and fighting a misfits who, you know, and again probably fighting someone that doesn't have a very noted MMA record, someone like we kind of saw Dylan Dannis fight recently? Chuck, I said that I don't even believe in the word platform. because to me that suggests that we only talk or cover people that we want to prop up. And I feel like this is like a new term that has come up over the last couple of years. I just believe if you're going to cover someone, yes, cover them thoroughly, cover them honestly, cover them fairly.

But I always go back to this Larry King interview with Yasser Arafat on CNN where I thought this guy probably doesn't like this guy. This guy probably doesn't believe in what this guy believes in. They don't come from the same places, but they're able to have a good, respectful conversation. How do you feel about this notion of platforming? Is that because you look at the news, and especially in political media, and we're not necessarily talking about that,

but it's like you're only going to talk favorably about what you believe in and negatively about what you don't believe in. And I don't think that's the way it goes. And for some reason, sports media doesn't conduct itself the same way, but still, you'll see people be like, oh, you're going to talk to this guy, or you're going to talk about this and not admonish it

or not put it down. Well, I don't feel like we should pick and choose like that. I feel like we all come from journalism backgrounds, right? We come from the way journalism has always been done, which is basically that you're trying to get to the truth of a matter with whatever you're talking about. And that's your job, right, is to present something that is the truth. When you ask people to avoid certain truths,

it starts to make no sense. In fact, I was thinking about this with Greg Hardy. You remember when he kind of debuted in the UFC? So you get Greg Hardy, and it was like, there was a big, what is the outcry? The outcry is like, wait a minute, this guy just got booted out of pro football for a domestic assault, like some really heinous stuff, right? But he ends up in the UFC, and we were never given really an explanation as to why the UFC. I mean, we know that they were a safe haven for certain misadventures from other fighters, like who could get second chances in this place, but this seemed like a step in a crazy direction, especially because he was on a fight card with Rachel, what was her name, Ostovich? Yes, Ostevich, which was nuts. It was kind of like, what is going on? So I remember going to that media day, you know,

when they would have all the fighters kind of gathered together and going up, and you're about to ask them, like questions of what people would want to know, which is anything to do with his past, to redemption and all these things. And there was kind of this whispering from his handlers, like, yeah, let's keep it to the fight. Keep it to the fight. Let's just talk about the fight here. You know what I mean? And I was like, that's impossible, man.

I was arguing with people. I'm like, that's impossible. you can't. We got to ask him about this. The context of why he's even in the UFC matters. He's only in the UFC because he has a name. I mean, they were putting him on like, you know, like one of the major cards, one of the major broadcast cards for these reasons. And so that is part of the story. And so much of what we do is tell a fighter story. To start leaving facts out of that story is anti-journalism, isn't it at some point? And I feel like that goes against the grain of everything we were ever taught. And everything really that has stood journalistically before it. That's a phenomenal point. Ben, have you ever been in a situation like that where someone has tried to stop you from asking or stop you from covering the full story,

the way it should be told? Oh, yeah, many times. And especially I think with fight sports already, we sort of exist as this like island of misfit toys in a lot of ways where a lot of the people who go on to have great careers in fight sports, this wasn't their first idea. This wasn't plan A.

for a lot of those people. They tried other sports. They tried other avenues. And they ended up in this world and they found that they were really good at it. And so a lot of times, promoters, whoever really want to use those contexts to sell the fight,

they really want you to talk about all these other things. And then when it's inconvenient for them, they don't. And I've been in several situations where people have tried to tell me like, hey, we've got to just talk about this, no questions about that. And, you know,

if it's something that I feel, is relevant to the story, then I've always took the approach. Like, if you're trying to tell me what kind of story I have to write, then I'm not going to write it. I can do something else. No one's story is ever the kind where I'm just like, well, my career is going to be over if I don't get this story. You know, it's crazy to me sometimes when people, especially in fight sports, I think

we saw it a little bit at that Canello Crawford press conference where Dana White, as soon as he started hearing some questions he didn't like that were pushing back against the TKO's approach to the Ali Act went hey we're here to talk about the fight talk to the two fighters well if that's the case why are you there you're not fighting so why why are you standing there and I think that's a thing where people want to hide behind that like hey we just want to talk about the sport we just want to talk about the actual fighting well first of all the fight hasn't happened you're only going to have so much to say beforehand about the fight great training camp I think I'm going to win no I think I'm going to win you know

there's not that much really you can do with that. Plus, when it's nice stuff that people have to say, or interesting and relatively harmless stuff that people are talking about as the context around a fight, those narratives, that's part of what we're here for. That's part of what the fight game is. It's just when they decide, hey, we don't like it. This isn't useful for us.

This is uncomfortable for us. Then they want to steer you away from it. You can't let those people decide what the story is. They can't be the ones to tell you, here's the kind of story you have to do. And if you let them guide what kind of questions you ask, then you are letting them do that. Okay, so let's talk about that press conference because, like, again, it was very much in focus and it got into a whole MMA media versus boxing media thing and Dana Wade and his view

of media and whatnot. Just, we'll start here. We'll start here, Petey. Was it fair to ask that question? Because Dana Stance was it wasn't fair. Meaning, like, not the time nor the place. You got Connelly, got Crawford there. Like, don't talk to me about the Alec.

Talk to me about these guys. Of course, we've seen many an instance where Dana White has asked a whole bunch of stuff when other fighters are up there and he doesn't have an issue, but this is obviously a pretty controversial one. And, you know, he doesn't want to talk about it on a stream in front of 100,000 or so people. I have seen people out there say, you know what? It wasn't the time or the place. What do you think? I think Eddie Herr made a great point. Last week when he's on your show, you asked him about this. And he said, well, and I saw this when I was in Belfast a couple of weeks ago, he will hang around for five hours. doing these interviews with people. I've seen a number of events. I can remember I was marvelling at this at the first Taylor Serrano fight. I know you are working that, but me and Chuck were watching Eddie Hearn go diligently to each camera and talk to all these people. Dana White doesn't do that anymore. He is very selective where he shows up. He's appearing on Nelk Boys podcasts. He's appearing on these shows where he knows it's going to be a favorable situation for him. So, well, there is a point maybe that that is.

is for a private discussion, that question that was asked regarding the Ali Revival Act, there is no opportunity to do that with Dana White. So here is a guy seeing this situation and he's saying, well, this is my only chance to ask this question, therefore I'm going to go for it. One thing I did say to the lads a couple of weeks ago when this happened was, isn't it crazy that that is now the thing that sticks out at a press conference? because it's so uncommon for a question like that to be asked at a UFC press conference. And that looked, maybe it was just because Dana White was up there and he got up straight away

and he said, let's go with the questions. There was no foreplay whatsoever. Dude, if you have a situation. Now, let's say that Eddie Hearn shows up at a UFC podium between two UFC fighters. What is everybody going to say at this point, right? Like if Eddie is suddenly like, hey, I want to get an MMA, we might want to change. some of the structure for me to get into this so I can take it up. Wouldn't you be

like, especially if you're an MMA beat reporter, wouldn't your first question be like, why the fuck are you here, man? Like you know what I mean? You'd be wondering like, why are you here? At the question. Press conference, where Max Kellerman got up and was giving the, let's say, over the top introductions

for people like Turkey, I'll shake, and for Dana White, he went on and on at length about Dana White's getting into boxing and he's bringing the UFC stuff the, all the amazing things he did with the U.S. He's going to bring that to boxing. Right there, when you open, yeah, where he was just like, you wanted an NBA and NFL and

boxing, here it comes. And when you do that, when you open like that, you've swung the door open at that point. Like, you might think you want to later keep the conversation at the press conference about the two fighters, but you didn't a few minutes ago when you introduced the guy and you were making it a big story, hey, this guy is coming over from this world, he's going to take the stuff he did in that world he's going to bring it over to our world okay so then let's talk about that because clearly it was enough of a point of interest for them to bring up at the press conference don't get mad when somebody asks you a question to follow up on the

thing that you already brought up it's clearly a thing that's on people's minds so be willing to talk about and i also thought i agree with pizzi that it was disingenuous of him to be like hey no we'll do it later we'll do like a private interview will you though will you though will you though because everything we've led to believe like the same thing what we saw when Dana White was getting into

that Vegas PBS reporter and you went oh he looks a little shaken here a little frazzled because he's so used to doing podcast interviews with people who don't really

know the world that he comes from don't know if what he's saying is true or not and aren't in the business of pushing back on anything are just kind of like hey yeah we're all here to have a good time

and make money stay friends and then when he encounters somebody who's a real journalist and has done our homework and is willing to push on it he looks uncomfortable because he doesn't encounter that much anymore.

I thought it was so telling that he used the words, you're being an asshole or you're showboating because that's the way in which he views, I think, pretty fair questions. Now, the tone is it controversial? Who knows? Those were very fair and well-researched questions. I also thought the delivery was interesting

in that the reporter, Sean Zettel, kind of started off with a bit of a compliment. You soften him, and then you try to hit him with the questions. In the end, he didn't get answers. But what it did remind me of was the fact that I think, And maybe I'm wrong, guys, 10 years ago, those types of questions at UFC press conferences weren't out of the norm. I think all of us attended press conferences and asked questions.

And there's tape of us asking questions to fighters, to, you know, the president of the UFC, Dana White. And it's been so long. And when I say this, I'm not trying to put down the traveling media. They all get the landscape. They all have to sit there. We're not sitting there more often than not. So I understand that it's a little bit different.

But Chuck, am I wrong? Like, this was like 10 years ago. between the scrums and the pressers and all the access that Danny gave us, sort of like Eddie Hearn in the year 2025, he was answering these questions. And was he combative at times? Yes. But he was fielding them, and he was answering them in his own specific way and his own unique way. Now he just doesn't field them anymore. And that's what made the PBS interview with Amber Dixon.

And this two-minute exchange so profound because it just seemed so out of the ordinary. He just hasn't had to. Pete, you mentioned this earlier. He's used to now going on friendly, you know, friendly podcast or whatever it's going to be where guys are just not going to ask him these kinds of questions. But we always were curious, especially as the sport grew and the UFC kind of grew towards what it became, what the motivations were behind everything. I mean, literally everything.

We were always wondering, why did we do this? Why did we do this? And anything that was glaring like that, and everybody knew that there was some glaring thing happening, you would get reprimanded if you didn't ask that question, wouldn't you? I mean, I felt like back in the day, especially you, Ariel, because I know that a lot of times you would have the mic pretty early in those things. And if you weren't asking a very specific question, you would hear from it. I would go to your comments and see that people are like, wait, why didn't you ask him about this? You know, it was more conspicuous if you didn't ask the question.

You know what I mean? So it's just been a 180 in that sense. And I think that Dana himself has put him in positions where he doesn't need to ask, he doesn't need to answer tough questions. but I did we were talking about this a little bit on the crack a couple of weeks back where we said that it was a weird look for him to be so caught off guard and that kind of tells you though what he's been used to over the last year a year and a half two years three years whatever it's been ptsy do you think we ever get back to those days do you think it will ever be like 10 years ago with the access and the questions and it wasn't made out to be such a big

deal or is this just the state of mama media because the UFC has been able to craft what they think MME media should be and who is kind of getting access, right? It's either a former fighter who, you know, might ask a question or two, but nothing really pressing or, you know, a sort of influencer type. And again, I'm not putting any of them down. They all have their lane. They all have their talents. It's all well and good.

But let's be honest, you go to the other side of the fence and you go to the boxing side of the fence and, you know, the promoters and the particulars involved are being hit with a lot of tougher questions because it's sort of like the Wild Wild West. Are we ever going to get back to that? Or do you think that train has left the station? And because the UFC is so dominant, they can dictate it. I think the media landscape changed profoundly during COVID, you know, when it was Foyd Island. And basically the media and the UFC are living together at that point.

Like, remember all of the hoopsie had to jump true to get to Abu Dhabi in the first place? There was chartered flights, all this kind of stuff. The very model of the press conference, what it used to be or the media day changed. I used to love the old. media days and when you get all of the fighters and they're all standing at their different stations and we just had a free for all of running up to them asking whatever we want now it's all just this group setting it's like being in school when you're a kid you know you sit in a room for seven hours and you know 24 fighters get up one after another as you sit there and you

pepper them with questions um I think they're quite happy with that you know as we've mentioned so many times. The UFC is not the scrappy upcomer that it once was that, you know, was relying heavily on media and chasing media interest. They have all that now, you know, billion, billions upon billions it's worth. And we've seen that with the TV deal, et cetera. I think we're a long way away from it. I think something would probably have to go wrong for the UFC for them to become such an open book and open up all their access again. But I've been to UFC events in the last year or so. And it just doesn't feel like an environment for journalism anymore.

It doesn't feel like it doesn't feel like that's encouraged in those situations. And I think that's why it was so crazy when that question was asked. And it just seemed so bizarre. As you mentioned, like this was commonplace. when you guys were going to these events week upon week and now it's just shocking actually to see a question like that being asked and unfortunately that's the way they've built the system

and I think it will remain until they have to covet interest from the media again and I don't know when that will be. Don't you think some of that that you're bringing up PC I mean I agree with you if the UFC are pretty happy with the way it works now but don't you think at least some of that is that the economic realities

of trying to be a media member are different now. Like if you're a young person starting out, maybe you're just out of college, you're trying to find a way to some sort of media career and you're passionate about MMA, you know, fight sports, whatever. And you're trying to find how do I make a living at this? How do I find a career in this? You see a lot of the people choosing something that's a little bit more influencerish than it is reporterish. And I totally understand why they would choose that or why they would think that that is the best available option because they're looking around and it's not like there's a ton of media outlets anymore that are hiring just people to do regular

straight up reportage on the ground at the press conference kind of stuff. I mean, either you're there grinding it out, following the UFC wherever it goes and just like churning out content or you're trying to become part of the story yourself in one way or another where you're the influencer and the person you're just kind of going to cozy up to whoever has an open wallet and is willing to give you some of the money and a lot of times that's been the UFC or it's been one of the UFC's send a broadcast partners or something and so you get into that situation where I think these people are looking at it just like a practical reality standpoint and they're being like that's not what this economic marketplace rewards anymore is going out there and asking these

hard hitting questions nobody's paying me to do that what they're paying me to do is become a person that people want to watch or you know something along those lines and I think that you know that's not necessarily on the UFC that's on like a changing media landscape in general and this worries me guys because I think okay I I put myself in in my shoes from you know 15 or so years ago and I see okay there's a lane you can interview fighters I could do it a little bit differently okay this is going to be the way that I'm going to break through and get noticed how do you do that in 2025 like there's very little access those media days don't exist. Some of my favorite moments, some of my favorite interactions came in those

ultimate media days they used to call, you know, on the Wednesday before. Because you got five, six, seven minutes, you got an hour and there's like 12 guys there and you just had to pick and choose your spots, but you got those interactions and you got maybe some good stuff. And if you were writing a story, you can spend a lot of time with people. You know, a writer has different, you know, different objectives than a video reporter like I was for the most part. But now you look at it and you're like, how am I going to break through? And that works. And that worries me that the next generation, like, I try to look, especially now with Uncrown, you try to see, okay, who's coming up, who's doing what, who's got something that maybe down

the line could differentiate themselves? And Chuck, I don't, I don't see it in MMA. Am I wrong? Like, you probably are looking at some of the writers. Who's coming up that's trying to be the next Chuck Minnhal or Ben Fox or Shaheen Al-Shadi? I don't see these people. And I worry that they're just trying to be what the UFC has almost like crafted. our brains or at least have tried to send out the bat signal that this is all you can be if you want to be invited here. And that's a problem because we know that's not journalism, that's not media and that's not sustainable. There's no longevity in that. And so I worry, what is this all going to look like in 10, 15 years when we're all old and gray and maybe not

doing this anymore? You know, man, I used to worry. Like, you think about this a lot. You would think who will be the guy that's trying to replace me at some point? Because at one point, you're breaking into a sport. And at the time, let's face it, there weren't a lot of chroniclers in MMA, you know, going back to the, to the aughts when I started writing about it and Ben was starting to write about it and others. But you always thought that the way it worked is eventually you look over your shoulder and there's going to be somebody coming up who's doing it better than you or whatever it is. Our biggest thing has been that the model, it's trying to change with the model. Like the model has changed to the point where you're not looking over

your shoulder this way. You want to stay relevant in the sense that everybody's expecting a different kind of footage now or a different kind of content. And I feel like that that's where it gets very scrambled as to what's happening now. I wish it was as simple as just a very good writer is coming up behind me and they're, you know what I mean? And they're ready to take my spot. That would be the normal way of looking at things and a normal way of dealing with things. But in our landscape today, you know, and, you know, there's just too many of the influencer. And some of them who kind of cross over in a bigger way to, you know, to the UFC and kind of make part of their beat like they just are at everything you know the theo vons of the world like

who's a comedian but like the guys who kind of come in and they're just they they draw a ton of eyes and you know they're just they're what they're doing is so different um but people are paying attention to it and so it's like i feel like that is worrisome on those levels because i'm like where is that headed for the longest time when i got into it you know you read chroniclers i'm sure ben did this and pizzi like you read the chronicles of boxing and you knew who stood there You knew who did it. You knew who, and that's who you were chasing. I don't know what the chase is now.

You know, it's like the chase is something different. It's not exactly to be the best writer in the sport, you know? So it's like once that changes, it becomes very concerning for me, especially when you see the UFC reclining, getting very comfortable with that idea. Should we have, like, pushed back at all? You know, and I'm aware that there was a union for journalists. I don't know how active it is now. But I can remember when this occurred to me that media in MMA share the same room as influencers

as all these kind of people. I can remember speaking to a football, like a soccer reporter about it. And I was just like, for instance, how would you feel if you're in your media set up at a World Cup and they put like, I show speed beside you and he's streaming throughout the event and you're trying to write you're trying to hit trying to hit these deadlines and this guy and he's like that would never happen like what do you they'll be ridiculous like there's a there's a separate thing all together like he we're in different areas doing different things like they they wouldn't be around us and and i wonder had the union had the union kind of done what it set out to do and you know

have have have have been able to challenge the ufc on decisions like that like would there been more pushback like should there have been more pushback do you think arre well that's a That's a great question. And when we were talking earlier about the newer generation, it made me think of the MMAA, which is no longer really a thing. It just kind of fizzled out and died. And it's one of my big regrets, and it's a, it's a sore spot for me. And I know, Ben, you were actively a part of it as well.

And I think we all were very sincere in our, in our interest and in our hope of making this into a thing. among my many regrets is that I think that our timing was off. In retrospect, we had always kind of talked about it, but the fact that it spawned on the heels of the incident at UFC 199 where I was banned and Esther and Casey where I scored it out, it felt like that was the catalyst, when in reality we wanted to do this five, six, seven years prior.

We just didn't have our stuff together and we were young and all just trying to figure it out. And so I think in retrospect, the train had already left the stations. The standards and the procedures were already in place. Now, you look back and it's like the sport was only, you know, what, 23 years old. And so, you know, baseball and football and boxing and all these old guard sports, they didn't have journalists associations or unions or whatever you want to call them on day one. So we weren't that late, but it felt like the UFC just had.

such a stranglehold on the way in which they want to do things that they would just look at us and laugh. And so I just wish we would have done it five, six, seven years prior and would have been able to establish it as this thing where we're not trying. I always used to use the word fellowship because I wanted it to be a place where younger journalists can interact with the older guard, if you will, learn and ask questions and have a sense for what it's like being in media room and what it's like dealing with some of these issues and you know oh i have an issue here with this guy who's mad at me because he said it was on the record off the record whatever that's why i wanted to do it i think people thought that it was our way of fighting back to the ufc and that

was never the intention it just kind of crystallized i think in a lot of our minds after what happened at ufc 199 like oh man we should really try to do something like this uh at that point well i mean we UFC respected it. I think that as I recall it, you know, we had, we had gotten an effort kind of started a little bit years before that. And then it just sort of petered out just because it was everybody gets pulled in their own directions and we didn't sustain any momentum there. And then it was after that thing happening at UFC 199, I remember that I sent an email back to the same group that had discussed this, you know, years earlier. And I was just like, so are we going to do it now or are we going to wait until next time? right because there'll be a next time you know if you and and that was when we we finally started to

get going now I will say if I had known what a pain in the ass it was going to be I might not have sent that email because it was it was a lot tougher than I thought I think we kind of benefited at the time a little bit from naivete because we didn't realize how much was going to have to go into it how many hours have you spent on these emails and recrafting these documents and trying to figure out how to do it and I know at least like for me personally because it was like I ended up being the the president there for a while and I was just like man there are there are a lot of things going on in the personal life at that time and I was like I don't have any extra bandwidth for the MMGA which was a thing that we also we're all kind of feeling our way we didn't have anybody to kind of show us how this stuff is even supposed to work what you're supposed to do we just saw like hey the baseball writers have one football writers have one maybe we could have one but then once we got one we didn't exactly know what it's supposed to do, how we're supposed to use it. And I think you're right, Ariel, one of the best things that it could be for is for support.

Because a lot of times, especially in this sport, we're not that dissimilar from the fighters. A lot of people found their way into this and were just sort of like, I'm figuring it out as I go. And there's not a whole lot of precedent set for how you're supposed to be an MMA journalist. And so they're kind of looking around at each other and trying to figure out what should we do how should we do this what should we definitely avoid doing and there wasn't really any sort of like framework to help you figure that stuff out and so that was one of the things that i thought that it had the potential to offer but it also just got like we started that thing pretty shortly before covid which changed a lot of the way the sport was operating as ptc pointed out also changed

who had jobs and who didn't you know covid saw a big wave of media layoffs and stuff as i'm sure Chuck and I both remember from our time at the athletic. So like there was a lot going on in all senses. But yeah, I do think that there is still a place for something like that. It's just it's hard to know how to get it going and sustain it. Is it too late? I don't know. I don't ever want to say it's too late.

I think there's always an opportunity to do something new or to re-inject some life and stuff. I think sometimes when we ask ourselves questions like, could we go back to this area. That's what I think we can't do. I think nothing ever goes back, you know, and the only way is to find a way forward. And I think you're right that there was a sense at the time, like, hey, we are standing up for ourselves against the UFC. And really, the focus and the narrative maybe should have been on, like, we're helping each other, figure this out. You know, it was tough to do it earlier, though, guys. I mean, I just, I felt like,

I remember what you're talking about, Ben, from like the previous, you know, years hearing, hearing about it trying to come together from years earlier. And the barrier for entry in MMA, like coverage of MMA was very low. And if you guys remember, I mean, there were a lot of people who were sort of masquerading around as journalists, even back then, that didn't really have journalistic backgrounds. They just, they found their way into the sport because there was no real barrier of entry. But you already had a precedent. being, you know, placed with the guys like Josh Gross early on. What was that? Going back to like tough, like tough, right?

Like the first versions of that, like, and, you know, Loretta Hunt and some of the ones that were, like, you know, blacklisted early in this sport. It was always part of what we understood, but it was a precedent that was also there, too, that, hey, you could lose your credentials. This could happen to you, but nobody was really, like, you didn't have enough of a camaraderie or even an idea of the sport would survive. you know, early on as it was going to, to put something together. And I think when you mentioned the timing, I remember, like, thinking of this at the time, you know, because we were acting and I thought it was great to galvanized into an action. And I remember when people were getting together in 2017, 2018, um, at these events. But, you know, you get like Josh Gross and I love Josh Gross. Worked with the many, many years. Same as you've been like, like, like, he became like

the president of this, right? And I think that some of these optics and everything looked a little like vendetta or like a little bit like a hey this is a response word anti whatever you know UFC and it had a hard time i just remember a lot of the the pushback from you know from the from the public or like certain public that uh didn't trust or understand what this thing was all about but the timing was i wish we could have done it earlier if we had done this earlier who knows what this would look like but it's just when you look back at the the pieces it was just very very difficult over those years those initial years before the boom period and all that stuff to really bring in enough media outlets and the person out and the people covering it and to find like solid ground there.

Yeah. Another regret that I have is that, you know, we were trying to figure out like who's full time, who's part time. Right. And I think what we quickly figured out was those who were full time had different intentions than those who were maybe not full time, part time who. And I felt a clear divide there from the ones that like sincerely wanted to try to figure this out to the ones who like it was no skin off their back if it didn't work out because they

have a whole other life and a whole other you know work so well there was also though a clear divide as I recall it between the people who felt like well yeah sure a journalist association would help some of you little guys but I'm gonna be all right I feel pretty comfortable in my spot and uh this collective action if anything like I might be you know sticking my head up too high and again get it lopped off like I'm doing fine as it is and so I don't want to get in unless I see that it already works. Like there was there was some of that too. You're 100% right. There were several notable names that wanted nothing to do with it. And yeah, you know, I'm not quite sure how that all turned out. I do hope that in the future

something like this can exist. But you look at it on the boxing side of things. Like imagine Dana says, hey, guy who asked me that question, you're out, your credentials are gone. Does the boxing writers association of America very, you know, very established? been around for a very long time, God bless them. If they raised their hand and say, hey, TKO, no, you can't do that. What is TKO going to do? Are they going to be, you know what, we're sorry. We didn't realize that this is how you guys didn't know. They're going to be like, go F yourself. And so the structure of this Wild West that we call combat sports is completely different than the NBA, NFL, and NHL. I want to ask you about something. I mean, look at last one's Pugmire, though.

Same thing, right? Like this just happened. Exactly. It's a tremendous point. He's working for boxing scene. He's well respected. He's one and one. awards. The UFC likes him. He's been to every UFC event that he's applied for credential for, but there was an issue with a boxing scene, and he was a casualty. P.T., I want to ask you about the tricky dance that is covering people that you either grow to have some kind of relationship with or not, meaning, look, you know, we're all human beings. And I say this all the time when I'm talking about this stuff. We all have feelings. We all have emotions. We all like some certain people and others we don't really like or vibe with or text with or whatever. And I'll never

forget meeting Daniel Cormier for the first time in 2009 at a Strike Force Chicago open workout. And he says, hey, let's go get some lunch. And I'm like, no, no, sorry, sir. I don't eat with fighters. I don't fraternize with fighters. And he's like, I'm going to make you my friend one day, Helwani. I'm going to make you my friend. And, you know, fast forward to his retirement fight against Stepe and I was like curled up. I'm not going to lie. I was doing a show with him. We were open. We were out as good friends and I'm like a ball. I never felt that way because this to me was my friend fighting is a retirement fight and I wanted the best for him. I didn't want Stipe to lose necessarily but I didn't want him to get embarrassed, knocked out, whatever. And so how do you deal

with that? You have great relationships with fighters you've been around and then you have other relationships that aren't good and my question is how do you deal with covering them fairly? If there's a fighter that you have a great relationship that you text with, you know their family, you know their wife, you know their kids, whatever, but you have to call them out, you have to cover something that isn't favorable. What do you do in that situation? And the same sentiment goes for, you know, you have a guy that you don't have a great relationship, but you got to give them props, or vice versa. You don't have a good relationship, and you don't have to give him props, and you have to criticize them, and it makes it worse. How do you deal with these real

life emotions that I think some people don't recognize when they consider media covering human beings. I mean, it is a very difficult situation to be in, and I have been in it, obviously, um, covering Connor McGregor. I was supposed to write his autobiography. The book is not happening for all the people who ask. It was never going to happen, really. It should still happen. I think you can still pull it off. Pete's, I believe it. Be a much more interesting book now. It'll be a novel, but it'll be interesting. So basically, Connor, He picked me to write the book. He fired a guy that this book company, Gil McMill Millen and Ireland, had given him.

And he hired me, he rang me one Christmas Eve. And he said, this is the direct quote. He rang me. He said, you are aware that I am writing a book. You will now write said book. That's what he said on the phone. That was a real phone call. And I was working in some press release company while doing MMA on the sites.

I was writing for voice. I was writing for the Daily Mail. I was writing for the Irish mirror. There's another one I'm missing. I was writing for about four or five freelance pieces while I was doing this sort of thing. He rang me while I was in the office. So I basically left that job that day and I was like, right, well, this is an opportunity to try and pursue this full time. Connor obviously was in a very, his career was, was meteoric.

You know, his earning potential was changing every single month. And I quickly realized, like, that's this deal that he signed in the store. summer of 2014, probably wasn't worth all that much to him by the summer of 2015 when I was sent to Vegas to write this book with him. He's about to fight Mendez. His knee is in bits. And once again, from a point of view of watching this guy and seeing what he did against Mendez, knowing he could barely walk in the lead up, unbelievable. Like, you know, absolutely fantastic. I couldn't believe how well he fought in that fight. But that was a real deterioration of the relationship because I'm working for a book company who are trying to release a book

and they are saying, where is this book? Connor isn't all too keen on writing the book. So I felt like friction began then. I was then asked to write for the MacLife and I said I can't, man. Like I'm trying to be, I wasn't asked directly by Connor in this situation. It was a guy who was running the company. And I said, I can't, you know, I'm trying to be a journalist and that would be a massive conflict of interest for me.

and then shortly thereafter that when the MacLife got up and running and I know the lads there this is no dig at them whatsoever I went to interview these guys the same guys I'd been interviewing since 2009, 2010 people around Connor in his camp

or whatever and they told me that they could only speak to the MacLife and so that's like a knife in the heart of a writer who's like been following this particular group up until this moment so that was about 2016, 2017, probably around Alvarez, and then into the Mayweather for you, I was kind of, I was kind of like, I'm not going to be able to talk to those people. Now, I did, to their credit,

Owen Ruddy would speak to me, Artem Lobo, but I wouldn't have any direct contact, and a lot of the guys would just stay away from me completely. I always just tried to call it down the middle, like, especially the sport in general was completely besotted with McGregor at the time, which was a weird feeling, you know, like, I knew so much. I knew the guy so well, but I was kind of had the door closed on me, but what it also forced was you to really kind of gather information. And it kind of turned me into a better journalist because before I could rely on the first, the first person contact I'm having with these fighters, if John Kavana is telling me the fight's going well, oh, I can write the headline,

John Kavana is saying the fight's going well, Connor said, this is the best count my life, this is the best count of my life. This caused me to be a lot more covert where I have to ask questions trying to dig around see what was going on and i always remember a clear distinction a clear kind of line in the sand for me and mcgregor's fans and his people at the time was a pre-fight show we did before he fought habib and you had me on his on your show aerial and i picked abeep to win the fight and i was like i haven't been hearing good things uh you know and you're like well what are you see and i was like well i see him drinking at the press conference too i know for sure abeb's not doing that and I picked Connor to lose the fight

Habib to win and the nerves were out then let me tell you and then the Why are you booing him? He's right though Pete's he turned it up to me 100% right I know I know but like that's not they don't really care about that at the time They wanted you to go down with the ship Is that it? This is it

And they also were that fight was Remember for the frackas that happened afterwards And Connor was already becoming persona In Ireland at this stage due to like the homophobic slurs he had after a feel he fought artem loboff there was um you know he had a few brushes with the law up in that point they were well reported he was acting more outlandish as we always say like there's a there's a line after that mayweather fight where the wheels started to come off although that situation that happened after the

abbe fought was absolutely none of connor's like it was it wasn't connor's situation people got in there attacking him in the cage abeep jumps over he tries to fight dylan danis the reaction in Ireland was to say this is bullshit. Like this sport is what is this? Like this is ridiculous. Like why are we portraying this man as a role model? MMA is not a sport which forced me to try and go into the community and say like, you know, come on, defend your sport.

Like don't just leave me here on these debate shows. Like you, the people are doing it. Come out and say something. And they didn't. And I can remember the exchange at the time with power brokers within that kind of camp and and within the sport. I was furious with them. I was like, this is ridiculous.

Like you're just going to, you're going to get a 10-8 round scored and you by the Irish media who know nothing about the sport. There's a perfect opportunity for you to come out and explain the amateur program, like what this does for people. And we're only talking about like last week, but Ricky Hatton, like people find a lot of solace in combat sports. Like it's changed people's lives for the better.

There's a lot of positive things to say about it. They didn't. And I think that kind of, that was kind of the end of me having any positive relationships with that scene there. And I felt very kind of cut off from the Irish scene. But same as I went to. covered Soroni fight you know Porreye fight all that kind of stuff I cover her straight down the middle and you know I praise Connor from his apartments against Soroni and I thought he was going to

win and the second meeting against Porriere I remember but unfortunately the McGregor's story has gone way beyond sport now like this is not there is no personal feeling in it when he is making the headlines he's making like it's just straight reporting at this stage it's just there is not a lot of positive of things to report. Don't you think, though, like some of the points that you raise make me feel like it's opposite of how people would expect it to be.

I find that when there's somebody that you feel negatively toward, either because of like these things that they've done or ways that they've treated you personally, when it comes to covering their fighting career and just the athletic part of it, it's a little easier to put that aside and give them their props when they deserve it. It's when you really like somebody.

It's when you have a really, positive relationship with them and you come to really like them as a person kind of what Ariel is talking about there with DC that is the harder thing to avoid because like in a way those are stronger feelings if you if you feel positively if you feel like a kinship with them especially you know you watch somebody who you don't especially like or who you might even dislike you watch them go in there to fight and there might be some part of you that's like hey, if this guy gets his comeuppance here tonight, I will not be sad about it.

But, you know, you see those guys get knocked out, and then you're forced to have a kind of sympathy for them. But if you watch somebody who you really, really like, and they go in there and something bad happens to them in the cage, as it can happen to absolutely anybody, as has been noted after many of Floyd Mayweather fight, there is no moral value to be found in the result of a prize fight. But you watch somebody you like go through that,

that hurts, man. I've seen fighters where I've developed really positive feelings for them and you watch them go in there and you watch them, you know, not only the physical stuff that happens to you in the cage, but what you know it means for them emotionally to have gone in there and lost and have disappointed themselves and what they're going to feel in the days and the weeks to come, you really feel that for them. And that, I think, is harder to set aside. It's a lot easier to set aside where you're just like, okay, this person has been an asshole to me, but a lot of people have been assholes to me. And maybe sometimes I even deserved it. But when you like somebody, it's harder to set that aside and and treat them neutrally. So what comes to mind? You're human beings, right? Like sometimes when people are like, you can't be biased, I'm like, well, that's impossible on some level. You're going to have a certain amount of bias.

You know, a lot of times you'll hear beat writers from other sports that are in a market and they're like, I have no rooting interest in this, man. I'm just reporting on this team. It's probably better for them to be aside from it. They don't want to be too involved to where there's some kind of emotion. intanglement there. They want to stay objective. And that makes complete sense when you're dealing with a team. You're dealing with guys and sometimes within a faceless organization and there's a lot going on. But fighting is a lot different in the sense like it is a person, right?

Or it's a coach. But you have these relationships, especially when you've been in the game a long time where you've talked to these guys. You start to know a lot of inner truths and like insights into what's happening in their lives. And unfortunately, man, you cannot be. detach from that. So when you see certain people that you have a fondness for, just human reaction over time, it's going to affect you when they lose. I would like to say, though, I mean, honestly, this panel here, especially whatever the result is, and if you put yourself in negative headlines, your job is to detach from it, right? Like, you've got to stay, you got to stay objective. And I think that when it really comes down to it, that's what you do.

I've had people get mad over stuff I've written, just thinking that you were, you know, you were a bigger supporter of theirs, but I'm like, well, I'm a journal, I'm a writer, I'm a columnist, I'm whatever I'm doing, but it's like, I'm not a personal friend, and I've tried to keep it that way, just like you, Ariel, for the longest time, you know, if there was any kind of friendship developing, I would almost be standoffish with those fighters because you're just like, I can't, I can't get entangled that way. But over the course of time, where you just know guys, you just know people in the game long enough, to know their families or like whatever, that's very difficult, you know?

The reaction that we have and also the fans' reaction is very interesting because I think of the Rampage Jackson, Raja Jackson story. And when this story broke, I was on vacation and I tried to do my best to just kind of disconnect for the most part, not have any outlandish hot takes or anything like that. And all the messages I was getting was, oh, you're not going to talk about this because he's your guy. Okay? And then I come on the show and I say, this was disgusting, this was awful, this, that. And like, oh man, you're a rat. I can't believe you rat it out your friend's son like that. I was like, what? So it's all this stuff where it's like you, the media is viewed as we're going to protect our friend. And then if you

try to actually call it down the middle and say, yeah, this was not good, relationships, you know, be damn, you're viewed as someone who betrayed your quote-unquote friend. When in reality, I think we're just all trying to do the best job possible. We're all just trying to be as honest and fair as possible, unbiased as possible. As you said, Chuck, we're all human beings. So I remember one time seeing a feature on Will Leach of Deadspin, and he talked about this idea that like, oh, you have to be old school journalist down the middle. It's black and white. And he's like, no, you know, I'm a Cardinals fan. I'm going to root for the Cardinals and I'm going write favorably about the Cardinals. And that was kind of the first time that I thought like,

oh, you know, maybe this is okay. And now you see it go all the way in sports media where it's like half time of the Knicks Pacers and Stephen A. Smith is like openly rooting for the Knicks. I think that's way too far. I don't want to see that in MMA where like you go to the panel and someone's openly rooting for a fighter to win. But I think everyone here does a very good job of, hey, we have relationships. You know people. You go way back with people. But if something needs to be said, something needs to be said. I want to ask you guys about one more thing, and that's on the record versus off the record, because Petey, this came up in my conversation with Logan Paul, where he was like, yeah, you know, I told you something. Now, worth noting, his whole recounting of the

turn of events was completely wrong. Like, every single detail was wrong. But it did make me think of on the record versus off the record because he said, oh, when I was DMing you, I thought you were DMing me as a friend. And my thing to him was, it's always off the record. This is why you're wrong. It's always off the record for me unless you say on the record. Now, I know a lot of journalists don't believe in that. In fact, I remember, and this is way back when, so I think enough time has passed, I remember getting a phone call from Mark Hunt yelling at the top of his lungs about some guy for some website who called him up and asked him a bunch of questions about a controversial thing that was happening in his life at that point.

And then some 30 minutes later, an article with those quotes were up. And he's like, I'm getting a massage. And you can imagine Mark Hunt upset. And this guy calls me up, hits me with some questions. And now all of a sudden I see on this prominent website all my quotes. What the hell? Who is this guy? I didn't work with that guy.

It wasn't the site that I was working at. But it made me think like, oh, fighters sometimes need to be told this is on the record when I think the rules of journalism would suggest, like, if they know you're a journalists and you're calling them up asking them questions, it's actually always on the record. But I've learned over time that fighters and managers don't think that. So my rule, my personal rule is, unless we say we're on the record, we're off the record. Don't worry, I'll never betray that trust. How would you feel about that, PTC? And have you ever been in those situations where someone thought that you were off the record? You thought you were on the record

and now you get in trouble or at least get yelled at because they thought opposite of you. this is like so like so many times this has happened and it's it's very obvious for me when we're committing something to the record or I'm using something in the interview because honestly like the tools of the trade will do you a lot of service in this regard like if if like back when I was just a writer I'd have a dictaphone on me and I'd talk to the guy or whatever and I say right I'm going to turn this on now so whatever we're saying now is going to be in this article you know what I mean like that that's what we're doing now um on a zoom call like you you jump on a Zoom call, you say, listen, I'm about to record this now.

So this is what we're doing. I've had a many situations. And not from any, like, massively prominent fighters, where they'll say something to me, and I will write it down word for word. But then when they see it in an article, like, I think their manager might ring them. And they completely shit the bed. And they're like, oh, I can't put that open. Like, it's on a fucking website.

Like, what do you want me to fucking do, mate? Like, you just said that shit to me. I thought that was a good headline. In fact, if you take that piece out of this fucking interview, it's not, there's nothing, there's nothing notable in it. So what are you doing? I've also had situations where, you know, this situation, I really don't want to address who the person is, but I once spoke to a person in someone's camp, in a big star's camp, and it was like the origin story of this fighter. And this guy, told me an amazing story. This is amazing.

Like, I was like, holy god, I put it out, and I put the thing out. You can tell us everything, pizza. We're off the record. Yeah, we're off the record. I can remember Ariel texts me going like, wow, that's incredible, you know? And then two minutes later, uh-oh, uh-oh, the person, this is about just got onto me there. And I was like, what the fuck? And then I was like, this guy told me all these stories.

And they just completely made them up. They didn't want you to put them out? the person who the guy was telling the stories about and all the things they did together had no recollection of any of these things that this guy had said and it was before a really big fight and I wish I could tell you what I'm talking about but it was off the record I mean I think pizza is a good point that like sometimes the just the act of recording is enough to signal but to me I've always taken the approach like if I contact you and I say Hey, I'm Ben Folks from Yahoo Sports.

You had a couple minutes to talk, you know, where I want to ask you about these things. Do you have a couple minutes to talk? That right there should tell you what we're doing. We're not just chatting at that point. I'm not asking just because I'm a curious fellow. I told you, I am this person from this media outlet, and I want to talk to you.

That should tell you right there that what I want to know is stuff that I can put in an article. Now, it's on you. if there's stuff that you want to say to me, either to give me like background information or to help fill me in on the context, but that you don't want that to be attributed to you or that you don't want that quote in there.

That is up to you to say. And just because you say it, though, it's up to us to come to some agreement about it. Because it's one thing if you say like, hey, look, can I tell you something off the record? And then you pause. Right. And you wait for me to tell you like, okay, sure.

Like, because some people like to think that they can throw that in there. there and like and hey if i say off the record afterwards or or at some point later on then then i just erase it they forget that the reporter is the one who controls the record now you'd be a real asshole maybe to to go and say like hey i'm taking this i'm using it anyway whether you like it or not uh but i think people you know as with many industries people think they know what the rules of journalism are just because they have been a consumer of it but that doesn't mean that you know like how the ethics of it and how the practice of it are actually supposed to

work. I also think that, you know, you deal with NFL players or NBA players, people who went through some sort of like major collegiate program that gave them at least some kind of media training might give them a better sense of what to expect. And in fighting, you know, it's kind of a wide open world. You've got a lot of people who don't really have any experience dealing with the media. And so they may get surprised. Sometimes they like the story just fine until somebody else gets mad at them or somebody else pushes back on them. And then they decide suddenly they were taken out of context. or they don't like what you read or wrote or maybe they think they never said it. Like all that kind of stuff can happen. But I think as far as like if sometimes I've been in situations with fighters where I realize afterwards, did they think I just wanted to be their friend? Do they think I just wanted to be a buddy?

And I think that maybe they did. I think that they think, hey, well, yeah, we're cool guys. You want to hang out with us. Of course because like you want to feel cool by association with us. I'm like, no, man, I'm here working. I'm here to see what I can. learn that I can then use to like write a story for other people to consume that's the whole

reason I'm here and I think that they sometimes don't always understand that and they think that I'm working with them to present some sort of polished product and that's just not the way it is what they think they're looking for they learn from the boss Dana you know that's like that's like almost famous thing just like make me look cool dude you know yeah that's it's literally like what these guys a lot of times I will tell them especially on a larger piece I'm going to turn this on if there's anything off record you just tell me right

like if you don't want something in there like if you say it and you're like oh you know what just tell me right like and I won't use that that piece but there are times like I was talking to Peyton's Halbot and he's not a guy who's gonna like I think he would let everything

be on the record you know but he's starting to say outlandish he's starting to you know they're doing crazy things and you're like you start to wonder if I mention this is he going to be am I going to be dealing with something because it's just

so different than anybody else or it might look like he's looking past his opponent or maybe he's, you know, drinking or doing drugs. He wasn't doing that. But like if he was doing that, like there were guys in the house, right? Like who are doing stuff like this?

Like, are you going to regret putting it in there and get the call? Because I've had that happen. And it's always one of those things, though, because you're like, at some point there's just an understanding when you're doing like a feature or something that, hey, man, from this point on, we're on record unless you tell me specifically,

like that we're not, you know? and I had one big situation where I guess it was a big situation at the time for me where it was I was talking to John Jones right after he beat Mauricio Hua like it was like a next day or two days later in a morning I got some coffee with him I was sitting there with him and doing this piece for this magazine and one of the things that we know we talk about all this stuff he all over the map and at the very end I was asking him about beer sponsors he's like I would never do that sort of thing and I was going down this list and then I was like, what about fighting Anderson Silva?

Because at the time, Anderson is the guy, and he was like, oh, man, wouldn't that be something? He starts going on about it. And anyway, like, so I'm like, this is really interesting, the Anderson Silva, because I knew people would be interested in what, like, would he want that fight? Would, you know, could this fight happen? I put it in there. And the next day, his manager called me up in, like, just, you know, the long 20 minutes, it was just like a shouting thing, you know?

And I'm like, dude, he never, like, we were on the record. I can play it. He never said that. I'm like, yes, he did say that. You know, and I actually saved John Jones back then. I've told you guys this before because this was the episode where he was like polishing his halo the whole time. Like, hey, you know, we don't do any bad things. But then at the end, he goes, I'm high as fuck right now, man. And I was like, what? And then I'm like, I can't use that though because that clearly was off record, you know, but I'm like, you know, I mean, not the, you know, but I think we know John Jones now. So I don't feel like I'm turning, you know, turning anything in. But It was just, it was a crazy episode, man.

And that's when I really, like, I made me very, very paranoid about what people told me. So I would then, from that point on, be like, hey, are we good to mention this? You know, you'd always kind of ask. Man, I love these war stories. This reminds me of us going, you know. Everybody has a John Jones one, man.

It is funny. I know. I got another, by the way, I got another John Jones one where I remember talking about his, his Nike deal. Remember the much talked about Nike deal? And I said that it wasn't for a lot of money. it was kind of like a merch deal. It was for like a minimal amount,

but I think when we all thought he was, oh, he's getting this Nike deal, he's going to get millions of dollars like Michael Jordan and all this stuff. And I remember I was out in the, in the country with my family. I think I only had one child,

very young, and I got a call from someone who then quickly put him on the phone. And he said, I'm never going to talk to you again unless you tell me who told you that. And I was like, I'm pretty young in the game here.

I'm like, what do you want me to do here? You know what I mean? Like, you're never going to talk to me again because you want to know who my source is. And that's another thing that I've always felt very strongly about. Like, you got to protect your source. You can't. You can't, you know, if you're known as the guy who's going to, like, buckle under that pressure, you're done. You're done.

Because that's going to get out there. And so, yes, we could do these stories. We could talk about these stories. But we're going to put a pin in it now. This was so much fun, guys. Really, really appreciate it. tremendous stuff. Chuck, P.T. Ben, all members of Uncrown.

And by the way, Ben, when you call people up these days, just say Uncrown. You know, like, everyone knows what it. You don't have to tell them. That's right. We love Yahoo. We love Yahoo. But, you know, we're now the number one unbiased combat sports outlet on the planet. So everyone kind of perks up, I think, when they hear that. Tremendous stuff.

Appreciate you guys very much. Check out all their great work on Uncrown.com. Of course, the crack with P.T.C. You could see these three fellows with him each and every week. and it's a joy to listen to as we head into the weekend each and every week. I'm Ariel Halwani. That's Chuck Menonhall, Peecey Carroll, Ben, folks. Thank you so much for watching this first installment of the beat.

Hope you have a great rest of your day. We'll talk to you next time.