The Ariel Helwani Show - TKO boxing league, UFC media rights, boxing ring in Times Square, more | The Craic

Episode Date: February 28, 2025

Petesy Carroll is joined by Chuck Mindenhall and Ben Fowlkes to discuss TKO’s imminent arrival in the boxing world, in conjunction with Saudi Arabia (2:50), and TKO president Mark Shapiro suggesting the Ali Act is flawed.During the show, news broke of a massive boxing card taking place in Times Square, so the lads give their thoughts on hosting an event in that unique location (35:12), before the conversation turns to the UFC’s media rights, which will be up for grabs before the end of 2025 (44:48).Finally, Petesy asked Chuck and Ben if the build-up to Chris Eubank Jr. vs. Conor Benn has made a splash across the pond (58:42).

Welcome to The Crack. It is Friday. I hope you're all having a wonderful week. We have a very interesting show for you today, all based around TKO's earning call and particularly some comments made by Mark Shapiro, the president of TKO Holdings, regarding a particular collaboration with the Saudis and a boxing league which will be, well should be, according to the call, rolled out during this year. A very interesting time of course. Big fights this

weekend, particularly in Ireland. Donovan v Crocker, I mean some of you might not be interested in that. There's also Gerv, Gervonta Davis, and there's another amazing UFC card, which the lads covered in great detail yesterday. So before we get into this business, I want to invite my brilliant guests. You know them and love them. Chuck Mendenhall, Ben Fogues, lads. How are you? Chuck.

Hey. Baseball cap gone. Back to the traditional Chuck Mendenhall hat today I see. I just grabbed one off the rack. You know how it is, Pizzi kind of on the fly, man. So I thought I'd spiffy things up for you a little bit. What do you think? You look fantastic.

You look absolutely beautiful. Ben folks, you've returned to us this week. Thank you very much. People are missing you. People are aggressive with me. They were saying, I thought Ben would be here regularly. Now he's off gallivanting at somewhere along the coast. It seemed like thank you for a blessing or switch your presence.

Yeah, I was indeed galavanting. That's the only word to describe what I was. Listen, man, when you live in the dark Northern climate of Montana, you get to late February and it almost breaks your spirit. You got to get out of there. I went to sunny San Diego, sat there drinking a Pacifico, watching a spring train and baseball game. And suddenly I feel like, you know what? I can keep trudging on another day.

Did you, did you think for just one second, like, why did I leave? So didn't you go to school down there? Yeah, I went to San Diego, San Diego state university, go Aztecs. Yeah. Yeah. I know why I left, but it's nice to come back every once in a while. That sounds like pure Americana by the way. I don't know left, but it's nice to come back every once in a while. That sounds like pure Americana, by the way. I don't know what a Pacifico is.

I would definitely like the taste of one, I assume. But that just watching this baseball training game, he said, unbelievable. This reminds me of a script from a, from someone in a movie I watched in my teens. That's beautiful, man. Baseball training game. He says, you sound like my girlfriend who kept referring to it as practice. She was like, did you want to watch one of those practice games? And I was like, what's wrong with spring training, Ben?

Come on. Part of our fabric training. See a guy who's going to be bagging groceries in a couple of weeks, give up a two run home run, eat yourself a fish taco, and you feel pretty good. I'm there for it all apart from the baseball. As I've told you before, it's the last American sport I can't truly embrace. We've been trying, we've been dipping our toe in the hockey with the, with the foreign

nations, but unfortunately we have to talk about another sport today. Two different sports, an amalgam of sports, if you will, sporting giants, if you will. We saw Ben's article earlier this week on the aftermath of this earnings call, but for those of you who haven't heard what Mark Shapiro said, again, the president of TK holdings, I believe on air Jordan, all the way in Florida this week, we won't say why he's there, but anyway, Jordan, if you could bless us with that beautiful audio, I would be very grateful. Make no mistake about it.

Our core business is UFC and WWE, And we're focused on the integration of IMG on location and PBR, both as standalone businesses, but also to help power and fuel our two battleships that are UFC and WWE. When it comes to other opportunities, we intend to be selective, disciplined, thoughtful, but we will consider other opportunities to create long-term value for our shareholders as they present themselves, but they must be value-accretive. When you look at boxing, it checks the boxes of all of that. It's thoughtful. It's the right strategic place for us to be. We have experts in Nikon and Dana White, among others, that can drive that business.

We can be selective in terms of how we participate. And whatever we do, we will not take risk. And it will definitely be value-accretive. I would tell you that there's still strong interest in the sport around the globe, and particularly in the the US and there's a desire to have it back in the forefront of the American sports ecosystem. It's just been broken for too long, it's been fragmented, it's been poorly managed and we think we can do a lot with it. What I would tell you in terms of our specific opportunities which we've spoken to,

everybody knows we're in talks with the Saudis. But to give you a little more color, I will tell you that we are close on an agreement with the Saudis on the creation of a boxing league, where we, TKO, would be the producer, the promoter, and responsible for all day to day operations of the venture, whereby we would receive a fee of 10 million plus again, we're not putting any money in. We're not putting capital in. We're not on the hook for any cat back. Well, there you have it. And Mark Shapiro, it seems ending the, the, is it nearly eight year quest for

Dana Hoy to get himself involved in the box? Probably has been a long time since he's wore the first Zufa boxing shirt. Remember that way back in the day? I think it is. I think I literally saw a Jedi Goodman in the aftermath of this. He added one of his tweets to a, to a long thread he has about everything Diana has ever said about getting into boxing. And I believe the first one you're exactly right.

Was Zufa boxing 2017. And it seems it's about to happen. Ben, you wrote about this for Yahoo sports, our wonderful, um, our wonderful website. Tell me what do you think this would look like? And I know it's very hard to try to imagine right now based on the, the few bits of information we have, but you know, with TKO being this promoter, they're handling the day to day, all this kind of stuff, is this going to be a UFC product

essentially with just boxing instead of MMA? You know, what I thought was really interesting about Mark Shapiro's comments there was what he stressed, the things that he really wanted to make clear. And again, this isn't a call to investors to sort of assure them that, you know, we are doing something that is going to be good for your money and our money and not Dana White doing his thing that he likes to do where he makes big promises at times, cause he's a fight promoter. He's just a born and bred fight promoter.

So he's always going to sort of over promise. You got to do things a little differently when you're actually talking to investors, their actual loss about what you can say and what you can promise them. So the things that he stressed there are for one thing, we're absolutely not taking any risk. We're not putting any money into this. We are only making money for doing something and what we are doing is fairly limited. Like I said, we'll be the

promoter, we'll present this stuff, we'll be responsible for sort of the look and feel of these events and as a show, but we won't be the ones putting up the money to pay the fighters to get the TV time, to whatever we're going to do there. We won't be at risk if it completely fails. It's the Saudis money that we're playing with basically. And we make a fee of, he said 10 million plus. He also went on to say that they would have some built in equity in the actual venture over time.

I think he said over a five year span, depending on it meeting certain goals, certain performance goals. So they could own a piece of it if it does well enough, but basically saying we're gonna get into boxing, but if it turns out to be a total disaster, we will have lost nothing. We're gonna make some money either way. It's also really interesting to me that he kept specifying boxing league. That was the actual phrase he used, boxing league, which you'll recall the UFC would go to great lengths at times when it was in front of congressional committees talking about a potential expansion of the Ali act into MMA, where the phrase like league was one they really wanted to stay away from because of the connotations that it brings and so it's interesting to me to

hear him kind of talk about hey there's a big desire for boxing which there is there's a lot more desire and you hear a lot more about boxing now in North America than you did even five years ago and yet also to turn around and be like but it's broken and it needs to to fix it, you know, and especially that word that he's fragmented. It's too fragmented. What he's saying is we should own it all. If we could own it all and own the sport the way we do with the UFC, uh, and allowing us to kind of keep all the money and dictate the pay, then the sport

itself would be better off, which I'm sure there's a lot of boxers who are making big money right now, who are wondering what it though. Yeah. The broken thing is what gets me is because I've never really, I mean, I understand the sentiment, but this is something that Dana has been hammering home the whole time. And it's something that the UFC has kind of made part of their success story is that they were doing everything that boxing wasn't, that they were going to be everything that boxing wasn't, that they were going to be everything that boxing, you know, everything they watched,

what was failing in boxing, this is how we created the UFC, we're going to do this other thing. But it being broken, like calling it broken at this point in time, which by the way has a very specific timing to a certain president and everything that's going on around in America but to say it's broken right now when you've got basically the Saudi Arabia though the Riyadh season and all of these boxers I feel like they're probably now like who's paying attention to a lot of these boxers say a couple of years ago I mean these guys right now I feel like they're getting equal play even within the MMA sphere that we mostly populate, they're getting play all over you. We know prospects and everything coming up now,

it's probably healthier than it's been in decades, just in terms of the pure perception of it and you know excitement generated around it and all that stuff. So to use the word broken, fragmented, I understand that you're kind of latching on to something, but you're also introducing yourselves as the entity to come in and fix it. And that creates, right? The idea that, oh, let's see what they can do with it. It opens up that pathway. Yeah.

I think also the, the, the point you make where they are claiming boxing is broken, uh, and we're going to fix it. The, the argument that you could make about the state of boxing now that I've heard a lot of people make is like, Hey, that it's not necessarily a long-term fix that we're seeing. It's Saudi money propping it up. But the UFCs or TKOs plan for how they're going to get into boxing is also Saudi money propping it up. So what he's saying is we're not going to take any risks. The Saudis are putting up all the money.

We're making money and we might make more if it does really well. Like you're still a part of the same system there. And I, you know, whenever people try to claim and Dana White has made this claim a lot where he's just like, Hey, these people in boxing are not making way better money than UFC fighters. It's telling that you always see UFC and MMA fighters want to go to boxing and you never see it the other way around and that tells you who's making more money right there.

Uh, PZ remind me real quick. We talked about this a couple of weeks ago, Ben, I don't remember if you're on the show or not, but we mentioned probably the top of anything. Yeah. He was gallivanting. We had a, it's hot. You mentioned the top 100 paid athletes. Yes.

And we went through and we're like, okay, how many MMA fighters are on that list? You recall? Yes, there was six boxers and the lowest ranked of all the boxers was in a way. Yeah. And he had made 45 million. So that's how many, how many MMA guys? Zero. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. That, that, that thing changes that, you know what I mean? Like these are really the implications. It's like the where where boxing is is You know, it's where boxing is and I know we're gonna get into the Olli act and all of this stuff, but like where it's at Provides that opportunity for six different guys including anyway Who hasn't even fought in North America in several years back to when he was basically a no-name on the circuit. I mean, he was just a rising fighter at that

point. So, I mean, when you think about the kind of, what does this mean? Or, you know, when you kind of do the domino effect of anything that we're kind of contemplating with what all this means, that's what comes down to us. Boxing, right now, you can make a lot of money. People want to go to boxing for that reason, including our top draws in the UFC but that changes right that's going to change if TKO gets a hold of it if TKO becomes and it be you know it becomes like more of a monopoly and boxing becomes part of TKO and there's some you know amendments to the Ali act all the stuff I mean who knows where it

goes but that's really what's at stake It's interesting you you bring up that list Chuck because you know at the end of 2024 We're all talking about Alex Pereira. What it what it what he's doing This is like a perfect year for an MMA fighter three fights three like stepping up on short notice for two of them And then he's not even clocking that kind of money like that the superstar of the year The guy you would expect would be earning enough to be on a list like this nowhere near it. Um, well, I don't know if he was nowhere near it, but he wasn't on it. Certainly. Um, interesting. What you said at the very top there, Ben,

you said that you feel as though they want to take over boxing in the same way as they have with MMA meaning TKO. Is this essentially the precursor for an attempt to take over combat sports? Like if they have boxing, they have MMA already, they have professional wrestling with WWE. Like, you know, those two companies, UFC and WWE, they own those, those industries. Is this what we're going to try and see TKO and the Saudis attempt to do with this boxing league? Well it does seem like they're at

least testing the waters on that you know this is the sort of feels like the most definitive we've ever heard anybody you know other than Dana White making just big promoter promises them saying we're very close then he said awfully close at one point. He said that earlier this week, uh, TKO had sent a delegation over to London to meet with a Saudi delegation to talk about it and sort of try to finalize a deal. You know, if all that is true. And again, this is an earnings call, so it kind of better be true.

The that is a lot closer and a lot closer to something concrete than anything we've heard before about Dana White's many promises to get into boxing and the fact that they're saying we're gonna get in it without any risk we're just gonna make money to put on the events and sort of use our expertise as combat sports live event producers that tells you like we're trying it out the Saudis are willing to put up the money we We're willing to try it out. Where it goes from there probably depends how well it does. I also think it depends on some of the stuff that may or may not happen with the Ali Act.

Yeah, the Ali Act. We're definitely going to get into that because there was some comments made about that particular act and it's something that has been talked about for a very long time within MMA, what impact it would have on the sport, et cetera. But just before that, because we're talking about this takeover element, Chuck, what do you think the likes of top rank matchroom these other promoters will think of this? You know, they've all been in bed with Saudis to a degree,

like to a very large degree. But we haven't had this kind of formal announcement of we're with this guy now, we're doing this together, this big boxing league together. Like it feels like very much TKO have planted their flag in Saudi Arabia there with Turkey. You know, like if this is essentially a takeover, I'd be very worried if I was one of the matchroom guys say. Well, if everything stays intact as it is right now,

you know, I don't think there would be much to it. But the thing is, so they mentioned these four mega events, right, that may or may not fall into the boxing league, but could just be one-offs or it could just be whatever. Now, if you're talking about, you know, top rank, or you're talking about matchroom or something in that respect, obviously, this is where they can play ball together, right? Like I think that this is the type of thing where you get, the entities can come together.

It's very interesting to me that Alexander and I'm not, I'm not, I mean, honestly, the fight game kind of makes you into a conspiracy theorist at some point, because you just start reading into everything. But when Alexander Jusek was, was speaking and he said, there's two fights I'd like, I'd like Danny Dubois, and then I would like to fight maybe Alex Pereira. You think, oh my God, not this again. It can't happen. It can't happen because the UFC would have to sign off on it. But there's this little twinkling of the eye, and I don't know to what kind of extent that people talk behind the scenes, what they know is going on. But you know what would be

facilitated if you know TKO is in there and they have a super fight, mega fight, whatever they're calling it, like a series, that type of thing right? Like you could make that kind of fight. So in some ways rather than losing your superstar talent in the UFC to like some big proxies like maybe Francis Ngannou right going over and maybe even paving the way to an extent of showing what might happen if you pair it up some of these fighters. You now have a platform to actually do that and make it feasible right like you could just say like yes let's go let's do Alex Pratt like you could just you could make that fight. That's kind of one of the strange you you know, things within this that, uh,

you know, peaks your interest a little bit. Yeah. Especially in terms of payments, right? Like if, if you, like this, we can go down so many different alleyways with this thing, but like, I mean, if you're, you have Usyk, right? Just for example, that's that for you. You mentioned Usyk v. Perera. Like we have a situation where we think that John Jones has asked for a certain amount of money to make this Aspinal fight happen. It hasn't happened.

But then at the same time, if you have TKO involved with this organization, this boxing organization where Usyk's fighting Pereira and possibly getting paid astronomical amounts of money to fight him, if we're to use Connor and Mayweather as a good, surely that will lead to a lot of complications within the other organization where the USC fighters are looking at, but they're going, well, you know, what's this doing with our bottom line? When's our bottom line going to move because of this? Right?

Yeah. You know, one of the things that I think though, like for actual fans who are just caring about the fights that they see and aren't that wrapped up and who is getting to keep all the money from these fights. Which is 90% Ben. Yeah, I mean if you're a fan of boxing then you want to see the big boxing matches. You want to see somebody be able to make those fights and so your question really is if TKO gets into this, creates some sort of boxing league with the Saudis, will that increase or decrease the likelihood of some of these big fights being made because some of

the fights we've seen just in the last couple years the really big fights a lot of those probably don't get made or don't get made when they do if not for the influx of that money and you know you have people who have so much money they can throw it around without worrying about whether they're gonna make it back and a lot of times they don't make it back and you don't care. If you're a fight fan, you just want to see some of those fights. And so it's been sort of a golden age for getting to see these big matchups on time, you know, not years after their expiration date.

And so the question is really like whether TKO is involvement is going to help that or hinder that because as we've seen in sometimes The UFC's monopoly over the sport has made it in the past at times more likely that you get to see some of those fights Because there's just not a whole lot of other options They have such a strong hand over the fighters that they can sometimes use that To get them into these fights Even if the fighters themselves might prefer to take an easier path and then at other times especially the Francis Nganu situation we've seen where they got pretty comfortable owning the sport

and feeling like we don't want fighter pay to creep up we don't want to set any sort of precedent that somebody can charge us more than is what is on their contract just because it's an especially big fight and they know we're gonna make a lot more money. We want everybody to fight for their contracted purses and that's it. And so when you have an opportunity to make a fight like in Ghanou versus John Jones, they say,

yeah, it'd be a great fight, we'd make a bunch of money, but we're making a bunch of money anyway. We don't need it. We don't wanna set that precedent so we'll let Francis and Ghanou walk. And that is like Chuck and and Pete you guys said earlier The UFC used to make that promise that we are everything that boxing is not now Let's flip it a little bit though

And you see in boxing is able to make some of those big fights and the UFC is more and more leaning on one big Fight in the main event and not such a loaded full fight card Which used to be the promise that they made to fans as a way We're not like boxing. I do think too. Just honestly man Like what was the what was the in streaming number for the Netflix Mike Tyson and Jake Paul like things like this? Just so astronomical at some point you'd be stupid businessman if you're not looking at that and saying like guys Maybe we need to rethink things just a little bit I don't think you have to put on that kind of circus fight,

but maybe you relook at things and just our times and what people are into. You know what I mean? And you wonder to in this new venture, however it looks in the end, if that's kind of another catalyst behind it, you know what I mean? Yeah, it's we mentioned the Ali act earlier. I think one of the things Dana White has cited for many years when he has been considering an entry into boxing, he's also, he's mentioned financial constraints and things like this. And a lot of people would point to that and say he is referring to the Ali act.

It does not exist in MMA. I think there's been people saying it would add a lot to the sport. There's a lot of people who said it would take away from the sport. Let's hear what Mark Shapiro had to say about the Ali Act, which is very interesting considering TKO getting involved in this sport. Look, the Ali Act has flaws. We believe it is actually possible to improve the current system to facilitate more opportunities for boxers and to regrow the sport of boxing in America. That's where we're at. We're not,

you know, in there active inside pushing drafting legislation, lobbying legislators, you know, that's ultimately for somebody else. Whether it stays or goes, we think the opportunity for boxing is extraordinary for us in particular. We can talk about that if someone else pings that question, but it's a clear opportunity and we are chasing it. Well, there we go. Not quite doing the lobbying yet. Although I think they're in a good position.

And we can talk about that in a few minutes, but this is wildly significant. Like they just announcing that we're getting into boxing and then they're talking about changing one of the, one of the biggest things that's happened in boxing over the last 25 years or so, um, how significant could something like this be joke? Like if they, if they were to come in and some amendments happen to the Ali act, I feel like that's a, a pretty strong statement for a young up and comer in the sport, you know? Well, if you don't want to get into boxing, right?

Like you want to get into something, but you just don't like the way they're playing, well, the entry point becomes when you can change the rules, right? So I feel like that that's kind of the situation here. And obviously like, it was Ari Emanuel, I know has made something, you know, made comments about, you know, trying to, I don't

know if you said repeal, I'm not sure if we use that word, but just amend some of the OLLIAC, but obviously it's in place to protect the boxers. And that's their leverage at this point, if it's federally protected against promoters and corruption and things like that. So to start to reimagine that again, to go backwards in time, you kind of reintroduce the monopoly of boxing. You reintroduce the possibility of corruption, rankings, rankings, rankings,

all the things that used to basically drive the sport and took the power out of boxer's hands. When we're talking about that Forbes list or whatever we were talking with the top 100 payouts, that's really where I was going with it is, I don't think if you're able to just kind of start to make boxing model and make it conform to what you're doing with the UFC,

well, that sort of thing is the first to go away. I just don't, you know, like the market gets reestablished and it becomes through that process, you know, like the market gets re-established and it becomes through that process, you know, it becomes then they are the market. And I think that that's really the things that jump out. But there's a ton of ramifications on it, man. I mean, you could go down the whole rabbit hole here of all the different things that could change with the Oliac. If it was, if it weren't in place for boxing, it changes everything. It changes the sport as we know it.

Yeah, we know through a great article Ben Foulkes wrote there a few years ago on the athletic that it would obviously it would affect the financial disclosure in terms of what's happening on boxing at the moment. It would also, you know, if we're deployed to MMA, which we aren't talking about, I shouldn't say this, but I mean, say, say at the moment the promoters aren't in charge of the rankings, the belts, et cetera. It is, it is a, there's a body overseeing this kind of thing, which is not what we see in the UFC.

It's just crazy to me, Ben, that they're suggesting this because of the implications it would have across the board in the sport like again I know I asked this question earlier about just TKO saying they're trying to get into business with the Saudis. What do you what do you think about boxers hearing this like boxers have gained quite a bit from this Ali act like it's been a significant change in the sport. Like it's been a significant change in the sport. These guys haven't even started this business yet. And they're already talking about something, taking away from something that has really helped boxes over the years. That can't be a good first impression to make. Well, I think the question that I'd be asking if I was a boxer and I hear that

is at one point in this call, uh, I don't know if it was part of that answer or not where Mark Schroepfer that the Ali Act has flaws. And this is sort of the somewhat muted language that Ari Emanuel had used about it where they're just sort of like, well, we think that the Ali Act could stand some revision, if not full repeal or whatever. But what I would want to know if I was a boxer is what are the flaws you think? What are the parts that you would want to see changed? What about it do you think is flawed? Because it's not like the Oliyact even now is a foolproof measure

or a magic wand for boxers. It still has some, even the protections it provides, boxers still have some difficulties in getting those protections to apply to them. Like, you know, one of the things the OLE Act does is give you as a fighter, the chance to demand to see receipts from these events. I want to know how much the promoter made versus how much they paid us. You get to see some of that. You get some sort of protections from what kind of contracts they can draw up. As Chuck mentioned, the big one is they don't get to control the titles, which the UFC does, and which we've seen the UFC really, you know,

kind of weaponize that against fighters at times. Do what we want, or we'll just take away the belt. We can at any time decide you're not the champion anymore and we'll make somebody else the champion. They can do whatever they want with it. And so if I'm a fighter, I'm going like, which of these things is it that you think is stopping you from getting into the boxing business or stopping the boxing

business from thriving? Like how are any of these things standing in your way? Because it seems like the unstated part of it, when you hear the guys who want to own these sports say we think that there are flaws in this legislation, it's like, you know, it's kind of like the people who own the factory saying there's, there's flaws in this legislation. It's like, you know, it's kind of like the people who own the factory saying there's, there's flaws in the legislation that say they have to pay you a minimum wage, you know, that's, that's what I'd be wondering about it on the boxers. Like what about it do you want to change? Because it doesn't seem like any of those changes are going to be good for boxers.

And again, the kind of things that boxers have used the Aliyah to do, it's not like it's been super successful for every single fighter who has tried to invoke it, but at least gives you a framework. You know, they often end up in the same position that MMA fighters have when if you want to challenge some kind of contract provision, you want to challenge the UFC or some other promoter on something, what happens is you end up tied up in court for a long time and the promoter has a bunch of money to pay lawyers for years and to just kind of slow play it knowing that you don't have that much time to waste. You're a fighter, you have a short athletic prime and a window to make your

money and so they often end up settling because of that but it at least gives you that framework. It at least says here's the things you can do and here's the things you can't do in this sport and you know MMA without an all-E act or without any kind of version for that doesn't even have that. They can do whatever they can get you to sign on. And that's the stuff I'd be worried about if I'm a boxer because if those people manage to take over that sport and they have friends in the White House who can help them do whatever

they want legislatively, then maybe you just lose all the protections you had. It seems to me lads and you know, I'm an outsider. I'm an Irish man here talking to two Americans and, but it would appear to me that Dana White is more politically powerful than he's ever been before. Um, I was reading reports this week, you know, the FBI, uh, are talking about UFC training. I feel like every week I'm hearing a new thing about we're trying to make this company a bit more UFC. We had Metta do the same, right? Like, I feel like these are just an endless slew of these stories. I'm hearing a new thing about we're trying to make this company a bit more UFC. We had Meta do the same, right?

Like, I feel like these are just an endless slew of these stories. Um, should, should boxers be worried because they're in a very good place. Like, I mean, it seems to be, you tell me Chuck, are they not in a perfect place? Like for like legislation and stuff to be changed or not, not saying it's that easy, you know, a guy and off it goes, maybe it is, but, um, they'd be in a good position to at least lobby for this, even though Mark Shapiro has said on this call that they are not doing that just yet. I mean, the most Ben mentioned this, the most, I don't know what the most conspicuous evidence you can find as to what is the more desired place to be is how many fighters from one side?

Which side looks greener from the other side right like and I feel like you hear it a lot more From MMA fighters who are like, you know, I've kind of I'm you know, I'm big in my sport I comparatively like where I'm at In terms of what I've done for that my sport There's a guy over on the boxing side making you know Eight figures for a fight whatever it is, and I'm not I'm making 500,000 or whatever it is you know what I mean, and I think that I think that that's

That's the big thing that catches you and we've we've been talking about this for years. I mean you have see fighters Just not like getting their worth, and I think that that's a lot of times you have guys, you know, who leave the sport that are still very much like who fought 20, 25 times under the OC banner. We're still very much not, you know, not sure how they're going to go about their lives after this. And I'm not saying that boxers don't do the same.

Boxers get that a lot. I just think that there is, there's a way higher, if you're very special in your sport, there's a way higher ceiling in boxing right now as it exists. You can make mega, mega millions in boxing compared to MMA. There are guys who've held titles, who I still, there are people who've held titles in the OC that after their careers are still looking for that next gig because they just didn't, they didn't earn enough in their career. Yeah.

I mean, and to piggyback off what you said there, Chuck, like the, the difference in the payouts and which looks greener, keep in mind that at times when Dana White has sort of laughed off, uh, you know, financial requests from fighters, remember him saying about John Jones or, uh, you know, financial requests from fighters. Remember him saying about John Jones or, uh, you know, at times we would say, Hey, he wants, he's asking for Deontay Wilder money and it's kind of said as an LOL, can you believe it? Can you believe this guy would ask for the kind of money that boxer Deontay Wilder gets, but then the reasonable follow-up question there is who's

better at their sport, who, who is who's better at their sport. Who, who is a better figure in their sport? John T wilder in boxing or John Jones in MMA. And it's John Jones in MMA. He's, I mean, Dana White has always been telling us at least when he has a upcoming fight to promote that John Jones is the number one pound for pound fighter in the world. One of the best MMA fighters of all time. And to be like, can you believe this guy would ask for as much money as a boxer who's a couple rungs lower than that is actually getting? And to not only say like, we're not going to quite pay him that much, but to sort of laugh it off as if it's absurd that he would ask for as much money as a worse

boxer gets in MMA that tells you something about the difference. He used to be very cautious and I know this is a little bit of an aside about, I'm talking about Dana White, like of smiting is just too much, kind of showing you just how rich he is. And I know since, you know, since the sale of the UFC and he's cashed in on his hundreds of millions and all that, he's been a little different. But I think over the last cashed in on his hundreds of millions and all that. He's been a little different, but I think over the last year or two, it's so much more unabashed. You're catching the shots of him on his private planes and you're seeing this.

I really wonder at some point how much just perception and everything starts to catch up. And I don't know if it'll mean anything to all the fighters across the combat sports, but just you have this TV, this rights deal that'll be coming up It'll be very you know there's gonna be a disclose. They're already talking about you know how How much you know original content should draw in the market where they're in such a good place you're gonna be talking about such crazy figures and To glaringly and the we'll see what happens Like if they start to amend the Oliac,

there starts to be big time shifts and how we're looking at boxing and as they get in it, we'll see how it all goes. But all of that added up, you would think, if that point doesn't wake up fighters to be like, wait a minute, they're taking the lion's share of everything all the time and we're not getting it. If it didn't happen then, it will never happen. I've said that before but this is one of

those weird confluences where you're getting a lot at once and a lot of numbers and just the visibility of so much of what's going on are going to be bandied about over the next little bit of time. It'd be interesting man I just I want to see if I want to see how it plays out in terms of like the fighters interest because we're sitting here wondering how boxers would see this. How would boxers handle this? I mean, this is everybody at this point, like how is everybody going to handle this? Speaking of boxers, we have some breaking news guys.

As we were chatting here about this, this sport of boxing, we had Ariel Awani update me via text about this little event here. The Ring Magazine Fatal Fury City of the Wolves card on May 2nd will take place in Times Square, New York and feature three blockbuster fights. As we can see there it is Ryan Garcia v. Rolando Romero. We have Devin Haney v. Ramirez. Tia Vimalocos's V Arnold Barbosa Jr. I mean, if there's any indication that this lad

from Saudi Arabia has a few quid, I think it's things like this. My God, I don't know how that works. I mean, I'm guessing the specifics of how that's going to be set up, but man, what a nightmare. What a nightmare. You go down there under ordinary, it's already a nightmare.

It's already a nightmare. You go down there under ordinary circumstances and you feel like it's like, you know, the end of the end, the end times, man, it's like, there's so many people crashed in one place. I have no idea the logistics of how they're going to make that work. Also is New York is, is it or other people calling it the city of the wolves? I don't like, am I missing something? That's like, it's like the Gulf of America. You either call't like it. I'm missing something. That's like, it's like the Gulf of America. You either call it that Ben, or you get off this call. I'm just kidding. That's a new one for me. I don't, are we talking about, we're going to, it will become the city of the wolves.

When we have this boxing match in Times Square, I'd like to hear more about the wolf angle is what I'm saying. I just imagine that like Saudi Arabia, let's come on back from New York and like, like, oh, where would you go on holiday? Oh, in New York. Oh, the city of wolves. It sounds amazing. Well, the big apples for cucks. I'm just gonna say it. Wow. This is, this is absolutely insane. I don't even know what to do. Look, the card seems... That's wild. That is wild. So now I wonder, are they gonna, did you say Te Fimo's on the card?

Yeah, I think so. And let me just get this tweet back. Well, uh, yes, because they were, they were mentioning an Alcatraz fight too, which I was like, what is going on? I were just like holding events. Yeah, we're going to get into some like enter the dragon. Uh, everybody gets carted off to a billionaire's private island. I love it. We're here pretty soon. This is also crazy, dude.

We're going to put Ryan Garcia in a fight in Times Square, huh? Oh my God. We're going to, we're going to decide that that's nothing could go wrong. There's nothing. There's not a lot of temptation around that part. I've been over there and you should be fine. It's going to look cool, right? Like if it is what, like I'm imagining the ring.

And then you have all the lights and the screens. That's what they're going to go for here. Right? Like, is that going to be in some, like in the script part of time square to like, yeah, it's just around the corner. All of those lights are around there, man. Believe us. Like they're going to try. 44th. Just keep going over there. You don't think we're doing the M and M store. You don't think that's where we're going to try to set up? How are you going to deal with all the sponsors, right? Like if all these stores are all over the place, that's hilarious.

Jordan has just given us some information here. I believe this was referring to the city of wolves. Is it Jordan's give me a nod there? No, you're busy over there in Florida, but you know, if you just give us a little nod. Oh, so it's the same promotion as you bank, Ben, and it's a video game, the city of looking forward to checking that one out. Thank you very much, Jordan. Don't really know if I got that right, but I'm very glad he brought it to our attention. This is a wild time, lads.

I mean, every time they announce something, I'm just like, what the fuck? What is going on here? That is absolutely insane. Oh, let's get back. Let's get back to the subject at hand. Let's get you to the apex. Let's center on the apex for a minute here. I need an apex event to cleanse me after this. This news. If something were to happen, right. And I know this is a boxing conversation in terms of the Ali act, it does not exist in MMA, but if this was to happen in boxing, would this be a massive step back in terms of MMA fighters and their remuneration, something that we complain about all the time?

Surely if we don't have, you know, that to point at just across the way in boxing and saying, you know, look, look what's happened over here. They get this much. They have to do so much more. There's so much more transparency for boxers, et cetera. Would this be a massive step back for not only boxing, but MMA if these amendments were to happen to the Ali Act? I mean, I would. The idea that the MMA fighters were headed in a better direction before any of this, that's, I can't quite say it seems like they have

not made any progress really on anything that would get them better pay, better treatment, you know, any sort of like collective action, that's kind of what it would take the two options that MMA fighters that UFC fighters had to get themselves into a better position would be either antitrust, which we saw that case just get settled. That was another thing that sort of loomed over this TKO earnings call was you talked about all the money that they made over the past year and then ended up with something like a net

revenue of like $6.4 million, which seemed comically small until you remembered that they settled a $375 million lawsuit. And that's, you know, there, and there is the fact they made money at all in the end. Yeah. The, the, there is still one piece of that antitrust case that's still out there and who knows where that's going to go. But once they settled that that took away one threat that fighters might be able to have. I mean, that's what we've seen in other sports. That's how the NFL got a players association was pursuing antitrust.

And the other one would be just the fighters finding some way to collectivize on their own and form into a fighters association, which at this point, you just got to think they're not going to do. If they were going to do it, they would have done it already. There were a whole lot of really turning points, these sort of forks in the road where the UFC would introduce a new thing, you know, when they took away sponsors, that one, I remember talking to a lot of people, uh, managers, fighters, coaches, people like that who were saying, this is it. If, if you lay down and let them do this to you without any sort of recompense, then that shows them that they can kind of do whatever they want to you. Because a lot of those fighters had signed deals saying, I'll get paid this with the understanding that you'll put me on main cards of pay-per-views and that will translate to bigger

sponsorship money for me. And then while you were still under that contract, the UFC said, guess what? The sponsors are going away and there's nothing coming back to you to make up for all that lost income and that's just the way it is. And when the fighters kind of took that on the chin and didn't do anything about it, that sort of, that was kind of it. And so they had some hope that maybe an OLLIAC expansion would get pushed forward. They thought they had a buddy in Mark Wayne Mullin who had been himself sort of an MMA fighter at one point before getting elected to Congress and the Senate. But he's a hardcore Trump guy and if Trump says, Hey, not only are we not doing the OLLIAC

expansion for MMA, we're taking it out of boxing because my friend Dana White, who was kind enough to give me my own personalized walkouts at events, which definitely did not get my reelection bid. Yeah. Had kid rock coming out there with me. Uh, I owe him. That it's the TKO. They're saying we're not out there lobbying for it.

They don't even really need to. They they're, they're saying it enough publicly. They can just trust that it'll go from their lips to Trump's ears that he'll know my friends who I owe a debt of gratitude to would like this and therefore I can lean on my party for this. And his party has kind of shown they'll do whatever he wants. I mean you kind of look around at the way that American governance is headed there's not a whole lot of pushback on what what the big fella wants so I'm not prepared to say that without lobbying

they could potentially just see a full repeal of the Ali act. It wouldn't even be in the top 10 craziest things that have already happened this year. That's so sad. That's a sad statement ever. Oh, did we just get like snap? Like, you know, you just, just like a little segment of a conversation we're having and think back to like, when we started watching MMA decades ago and being like, yeah, the president of the United States has his known walkout music at UFC events. And you're like, what the fuck? What is that to happen here? Great. Like, oh my God. It's

absolutely insane. And we believe we, well, we can forecast that this, this conversation about Florida renumeration will get really jazzed up around the broadcast deal. It always does. A massive number comes out. We all go, guys, do you not want, do you not think you should get some of this money? And we talk about it for a while and it goes away. Um, there was, by the way, I do remember Ben, when you were talking about that, I was like, it threw me back in time. Cause I was,

I remember you talked to fighters and they would all kind of quietly grouse about like, I'm losing 50 grand a fight because of this or whatever. They would all tell you this. And that's why I thought at that time, I was like, I'm losing 50 grand a fight because of this or whatever. They would all tell you this. And that's why I thought at that time I was like, well, you know, if it's going to happen, it happens now. Like you're, you're, you're taking money out of their pockets and it just died down. I would say within like a year it had just kind of died down. It petered out altogether.

Yeah, it did. Yeah. It always does though. And I do expect it to get hammed up, you know, with the broadcast deal. It's always such a big number, et cetera. And I believe they did have something to say about the media rights. Nothing very clear, similar to the boxing stuff. But let's have a go at that, Jordan.

Let's hear what they have to say about the media rights. We're currently in our exclusive negotiating window with Disney, the SPN. The window opened on January 15th. It lasts 90 days. When we look at the outlook for renewal, I'd remind you that the market for premium content, despite ESPN shedding MLB and F1, is hot. It's quite strong.

The content, our content in particular TKO is unique because not only do we own and control it but it's year-round and there is no offseason. Our content both at UFC and WWE for that matter has urgency and the urgency allows us to attract subs and viewers, and also gives a consistency to retain subs and viewers, reduce shurn. Obviously, these are appealing attributes for buyers of content, particularly with the streaming services, which is

what it's all about these days. When it comes to our overall deal, one package, two packages, half packages, four packages, NASCAR style, whatever it might be, we're focused on doing what's best for the business in the long term. So that means a balance between maximizing our reach and engagement and monetization. Well, there you have it. I can remember the ESPN deal when that came in and the amount of frustration

that fans had with like, oh, you have to log in here. And then the pay-per-view comes, you have to pay for that again. If you are pissed off back then, lads, it sounds like things are going to get very, very complicated towards the end of 2025. I expected that we heard Ariel speaking about it most weeks. He expects it to be this smorgasbord of UFC events across several different streaming outlets. Oh my god. Worse than the NFL.

Worse than all those. Remember when they were just, they were kind of, it was like versus and then they broke into Fox, but then it was like they had, what was it, Ion? He was like, everybody's got Ion, you know, you can find the fight nights on Ion. We've already kind of went through this. Sometimes on one individual card, they would have three different locations. You had to go to watch a single card from, from post to post. So it feels like we might be just be entering a little bit of that area again,

you know, like where you're, you're just going to have to, everything is just. Disseminated everywhere. Like, you know what I mean? Like ESPN has some and, uh, Netflix or whatever. I think that's going to be the direction. Yeah. But also, I mean, this is one of the things that the UFC and like, you know, TKO through the UFC really can offer people, especially if you have a streaming

service, whether it's, you know, a newer streaming service or a streaming service that's newer to offering live sports and you know, they all want to get into live sports because that is something that you can still reliably sell advertising on because people are going to watch it at that time. As he said, you know, about the, the WWE and the UFC, they create urgency, which maintains subscriber basis and, and year rounders and see, you know, not no off season, no, Hey, I'm going to subscribe to Apple TV when you got a new seary series season of severance.

And then I'm out until there's a next one, but ongoing sort of recurring subscriptions that you get sort of what ESPN plus has gotten where if you're an MMA fan, you gotta have it, you know, to watch the UFC. So you'd sort of set it and forget it. Even if I don't care about this weekend's fight card, but I still, you know, I'm not going to cancel my ESPN plus subscription every month until there's, you know, next weeks that I might actually care about. And they do have that to offer.

And if there's one thing you've seen about MMA fans, even though they're not as big an audience as a lot of other sports get, they will pretty reliably follow you wherever you go as the UFC. The real test is going to be though, if they spread it out between two or three different, uh, subscription streaming services, a subscription package, something, and I agree that that is probably the most likely scenario here. At what point do you hit some kind of threshold where people go like, look, I'll follow this one if it has the big fight cards or I'll follow these two. But if you just put the fight nights, you know, especially the apex level fight nights over on this one, man

I'm not even thinking about it You know I think that you've already has without explicitly saying it these different tiers of programming where you got pay-per-view at the top You got a fight night event in front of an actual crowd in an actual arena Down at the second tier. And then the bottom tier is what we got this weekend where we're at the apex and the card looks like we barely gave it a thought and fans can look at that and they know, uh, fighters know fighters can see which fight card they're put on and

know what the UFC thinks of them. And so if you're going to spread those, those tears out across different platforms, you are making it a little more stark for people to go, which ones do I think have value in which one? And then so true hooning out from a large portion of your, your content. You know, I was just, it was just literally thinking about this because I did a piece on a Estepan, a, uh, how does he pronounce it? Yeah. Yeah.

He just had a fight of the year, fight of the year candidate at the sphere card where, you know, he goes back home with Zell Hoover and then, you know, you think that that would sort of catapult him into this like, okay, now we got to let the world see this guy's coming off of this. Instead, he's buried on this weekend's apex card. I thought that that was the craziest juxtaposition I think I've seen from a guy who you like okay just pulled out one of the crazy fights like little I think we uncrowned called it the fight of the year I believe. Yeah we did. So yeah so it's like you go from that to buried on the apex card how does that work? I think it will be more delineated as you're

saying Ben like if they were to do that if they were to say like okay so the lower tiered cards are going to be over here on this channel. I do think that people would see it right now. I, cause I asked him and he's like, oh, it's just like a contender series. I get, you know, I'm going home in a weird way, you know, that sort of thing.

I think backwards is another way to think about it. But I think it becomes more clear that you're going backwards. I don't think that some fighters don't even associate this yet, but that would certainly make the association stronger. Yeah, but I mean, the one thing I think we can all agree on is even if they do that, however they spread out the content on rights deals, they're going to make a lot more money.

And you know, when they were first talking about seeking a deal with ESPN, and it was around the time of the sale where we finally got a look into a lot of the USC's financials and I remember doing stories on this because when they sold to Endeavor that first initial sale from back when it was Zufa, the Fertitta brothers and Dana White and selling it to Endeavor which later because spun it off into TKO we got a look via the investor decks that they had sent around trying to get people to buy in,

because of course Endeavor didn't buy it all at that point, later bought it all. But the thing that they were presenting to potential investors was saying, look, we're up for a rights renewal, dear. The Fox deal is up here pretty soon. And timing-wise, we are coming available when there aren't a lot of other sports options becoming available.

The NBA won't be available for another four years or whatever it was. NFL's locked down for the next five or six years. If you're somebody new who wants to pick up some new sports, we're the only game in town right now. And so we're going to see a huge increase and they laid out at the time, what kind of a huge increase they were expecting and I think a lot of us kind of saw that number and went are you crazy like that seems ambitious it seems hopeful and then they got even more than that you know in the end from ESPN and

so it's like they're gonna come around this time whether it's whether ESPN picks up some or all of it again whether they spread it out there's again gonna be saying we want a huge increase and they're almost certainly going to get it It feels like where you brought up earlier Ben And it's it's a very relevant like the fact that people are complaining about cards that are put out Obviously the UFC is still doing great. It's in a better place than it's ever been. But you know at 312 Australia things like this and Montreal even before they come you have fans kind of forecast well we're going to get this it's not going to be a blockbuster character isn't the need to stack the main cards completely as we

used to see you're mentioning like different entities of the UFC and different streaming platforms that will put an onus on the UFC to create more products. They have lots of products. As we know, Dino always consent contender series. Uh, you've mentioned the tiers of events they put on. Are we nearing a saturation point for the sport? Are we nearing a point where there's just, it's too available. It's everywhere.

Uh, this used to be like punk rock. It's now like a YouTube concert 500 front of 500,000 people or whatever. You know? And do you think that's a risk going forward? If this kind of thing happens, let's, I don't know if it's like a long-term existential risk. I think one of the things he mentioned, Mark Shapiro, in that quote we heard earlier mentioned churn that we reduced turn. And it's like, I understand that probably numbers wise they feel like we basically end up with about the same number of subscribers going forward but there is I think a higher level of fan churn in MMA and in

UFC than you see in other sports and some of that is just sort of natural to the kind of sport that it is because it's like if you're a Cleveland Browns fan you know you're from Cleveland your you're a Cleveland Browns fan, uh, you know, you're, you're from Cleveland, your dad was a Cleveland Browns fan. It's just sort of part of your life. It's there. They're going to have, maybe the, not the example I want to use there, you know, or, or, you know, me, I live in Missoula, Montana.

Uh, I I'm a Montana Grizz fan every year. I go to some Grizz football games. They have good years. They have not so good years, but I'm back next year. You know, even if at the end of a year, I might be like, Oh God, I can't believe it. You know, I might be done with these guys. I'm going to be back next year. And fight sports doesn't quite have that because you're not tied to it because you have an affinity for a team or a city or some kind of a history. It's individual

and those people come and go and it's always been that way. So back to the bare knuckle boxing days, it's always been sort of a individual star driven sport and the UFC has managed to take some of that that churn risk out of it by just making the brand so much of a star. But at the same time, I think they picked up a lot of new fans during the pandemic. I hear that from people all the time where they say, I started watching this because I wanted to watch sports during the pandemic and stuff wasn't on.

This was on. I watched it. I became a fan. Isn't that sad? That's gonna be the stroke of genius that Dana did in the end. Yeah, well, I mean, it's a real thing, but I do think- Save the world joke, okay?

I know. That's not, okay? Go ahead, well, I mean, it's a real thing, but I do think- You saved the world joke, okay? I know. That's not, okay? Go ahead, Ben. Sorry about that. I do think, though, that you see a fair amount of fan churn just anyway, because people are like, I don't know, the people I got into watching who were the stars when I started watching, they're not really in it anymore. I don't know who some of these young guys are.

I, you know, especially as people get older, they have kids and they're like, I don't want to spend every Saturday night watching the fight night card of people I haven't heard of. And they just kind of gradually tune out, but new people tune in. And so I think you end up with around the same number, but it's also the thing Ari Emanuel had said, uh, you know, a year or two before is that they felt like they're added genius for the way they structured these deals for the USC is taking what he called the lumpiness out of the business, which means we got a rights deal that pays us whether people watch or not. ESPN pays us for putting on an event. Doesn't have to be a great event.

Doesn't have to be event people are super excited about. We put on the show, we get paid. We put on a show. People really, really want to watch. We might get paid a little more, but either way we are profitable and we are making money. And so they just, that changes the incentive structure for the USC. Yeah.

Just pointing in like a who's, who's the main event this weekend at the apex Ben just without. Uh, it's Manel Cape versus a guy with a long name. He's exactly right. He knows exactly what's going on. I'm not wrong. He's exactly right. He knows. I'm not wrong. That is correct. Yes. Damn. I thought I was going to get you that. It's like number six versus number nine or something. One of the like least, uh, excitable divisions for a lot of it.

I mean, I'm not saying that like they put on bad fights, the flyweights put on great fights, but as far as fan interest, it's one of the lowest divisions. Yeah. I will also say, PC, just to piggyback real quick off of what he's saying. Don't I mean, just the association, like so DraftKings and all the, all the different gambling entities and especially DraftKings, which partners so much with the UFC, don't think that that doesn't play a huge role in just you casually tuning in. You throw money on dudes.

You're gonna probably at least stop in on the, on wherever it's playing just to see that fight, you know, because the people love gambling these these fights because it's 15 minutes. It's such a quick hit. Boom, boom. They can just bet something and move on. I know tons of guys who do this. So, that aspect is new. That's, that's new from even the, the original ESPN deal. So that's just, it's just something else. Like, I don't know how they track numbers. I don't know if it's like, this is how long you sustain or how long you on the, you know, on the stream or whatever it is, but I know people will just come in, Hey, that fight's starting right. Let me get on it.

And then a bunch of people jump on it at that moment, you know? Yeah. I'm personally looking forward to Manila Cap versus a man with long name. I think he has a serious chance of this one. I'm a Bay of, I'm a Bay of is that his name? Something like that. I prefer dude with long name. It's right. Dude with long name. It's his native name. Before he's go away, before he's go, Jesus Christ. Um, you bank, Ben is the talk of the sports world here. Right. And I was wondering earlier, like we're talking about how much transitions over the US like, I mean, has there been a big buzz over there for this set, Chuck, with all of the antics from Chris Eubank?

I've seen it a million times. I don't know about Ben, but I've seen that footage everywhere. In fact, it was so good because you got a genuine. It was so genuine, right? Like the dude was so mad. Like he was so mad. So pissed off. It was great. I thought like in terms, we've seen like some kind of calculated, you know, blow ups at these things. You see bottle toss, you see that stuff. Yeah. But when somebody brings an egg and whaps it upside your head, I mean, that's a brilliant table setter for me.

It is. And especially like that's the thing, like you guys have it has made waves over here. It's the egg incident. That has really pushed it into people's awareness. And I love, I was looking at this story earlier that we have over on uncrowned by the big homie, Dar Sean, where he's talking about, you know, the, uh, Chris, you banks, uh, addressing the whole thing. Uh, and my favorite part is him saying like, would I do it again? Absolutely.

I like to that the next time he's coming in there, they're like, like patting him down and wanting him and all that stuff. The egg detector, it says egg detector on the wand. Like that's, that's where we go from just a funny moment to true fight promotion genius. It's fantastic. He was pissed. I saw the still shots of him just like, it's like he's frothing at the belt. Like he's, he's, he's just so good. Do you know what's so funny? It's like an ego death from Chris Eubank because I think a lot of people didn't like this idea

and they're both, they both have this kind of status of this young guy coming along, riding his dad's coattails, you know, becoming popular, getting opportunities. But when he's sitting up there saying, look, they don't like me, how does it feel to be like me? Hey, Ben, you're like me now. Everyone hates you. And I don't think Ben has had that ego death yet. And he's making him sit through this, like in front of a crowd of people who are

there to see this man being dressed down for a failed drug test. Chris Eubanks just like, yeah, I don't give a shit. And that has turned him into a baby face here. He somehow was gone from like this guy, take him or leave him. I know when he fought Bevy Smith, a lot of people were up for him. And then he wins that fight and now he's here. And just suddenly he's, he's like become his dad. Do you hear him talking about the Louis Vuitton jacket and all this stuff?

Like he's, he's, I used to look at them and go, Oh, it's funny. The way he doesn't, he doesn't quite have his dad's kind of, uh, doesn't have the same thing going on, but somehow in the promotion, his fight, he is just becoming his father. It's, it's absolutely incredible. And, um, yeah, I can't wait. It's crazy that it's two months away. If anything, that's the worst part about it, right? Yeah, it's insane. Um, so what are you guys going to check out the Davis fight this weekend? We just going to lock into the apex. What way, what way he's going to operate

here. That's what I want to know. Ben. I'm looking right now. He's pretending Ben's that most hardcore dude. He's going to be up till all hours watching this apex card. Oh, you know, it, Ben, don't look, you know what? I it's my daughter's 10th birthday this weekend. So we've got some celebrations planned. I'll say, I'll- Happy birthday. I like to, especially with some of these Apex cards,

I like to circle back. I'll circle back on Sunday morning. They make you sit through so much filler when you watch these cards live, because it's just, you know, they're never going to do more than two fights in an hour. We're throwing it back to the desk. We're running these video packages. You will.

You also know going into an apex card, you are going to see the same advertisement at least times until you, you're hearing it in your sleep, all that kind of stuff that, you know, especially if you were not super invested, like where I need to know exactly when it happens, I need to see it live. You can come back Sunday morning with a cup of coffee and peruse through it. I was going to say, and you're only very selectively like pick out what you want to watch. Like you don't have to watch all of it.

And you'll hear if somebody has a great fight on the undercard that, you know, if it was one that wasn't exactly circled for you, but the they ended up putting on a great performance, you can go check that one out, but you don't have to, you don't have to sit through them all. I actually quit the apex last year. I was just like, I can remember it was just in the middle of the night. I'm up till six AM watching this shit, but it was a particular, I can't remember the

particular event, but I tweeted at the time. I was like, can't fucking do this anymore. I just, this is ruining. I know. They broke you. They broke me. Finally. Oh my couch is gone.

What the fuck is my life? I'm surprised you lasted that long. I think it broke me several years ago. life? I'm surprised you lasted that long. I think it broke me several years ago. I don't know how you lasted that long. Boys, I'm having a great time here, but before we go, I believe we have a super chat Jordan, see crack heads. Look at me interacting. Look at this.

Don't know if this is a dumb question, but could the UFC use the new boxing league in the U S TV rights deal and try to package them together. Ooh, I mean, well, that is quite an interesting question. I guess it would turn timing wise because right now they're in the exclusive negotiation period with ESPN. He said, I believe that started with January 15th, maybe and runs for 90 days. And so during that period, you know, we're just talking to ESPN about it. And the, the right seal really kind of like comes up like the new one would begin later this year. So it could be something that you're teasing out there,

but you're also asking somebody to sort of buy into something that they haven't seen yet. You know, you're telling them, we will have a boxing league. They also probably are going to be savvy enough to be like, haven't you said. You're telling them we will have a boxing league. They also probably are going to be savvy enough to be like, haven't you said that before though? Yes, all the t-shirts. And so I don't know how big a role that will be able to play in something. I would be frankly, I hate to even say this, speak these words out loud and desecrate this show. I would not be surprised if they try to work up a little something for the power

slap in these deals. We'll say like, Hey, we'll let you have fight nights and we'll even sprinkle on a little power slap, whether you want it or not. We'll even sprinkle it on. Nice. That's it. That's the tipping point for me. I'm in.

It's interesting you mentioned ESPN though, because there's a whole top-rank situation there now at the moment with the buff, right? Like they're looking at the FBI investigating them for the link stick in it and stuff like that. Crazy, crazy sport, man. Boxing is just fucking wild. We have egg detectors, fucking lads fighting each other in Times Square. God knows what will happen next. But thank you so much, boys.

It's been a pleasure as always. Ben, enjoy your Galavan thing. Look at him. You can see it in his eyes. He cannot wait to Galavan. He's ready to crack his first Pacifico right now. Look at him. I'm a world-class Galavanter, I'm telling you.

He's going to Galavan the fuck out of place as soon as it's over. Chuck, fantastic as always. Ben, fantastic as always. On Air Jordan, you're a beautiful man. I hope Florida goes well and you get to meet your heroes. Won't mention their names. Might have just landed there a couple of days ago. Yeah, they might have just stepped foot for the first time in two years.

Aaron Rodgers and these two lads are in some level. Oscar Lozev, thank you very much. Crackheads, we love you. See you next week. Mwah! very much crack heads we love you see you next week you you you