The Ariel Helwani Show - Tom Aspinall's next moves, Jon Jones' legacy tarnished? UFC 317 preview, more | The Craic

Episode Date: June 25, 2025

The Craic returns! In a special Wednesday edition of the show, Petesy Carroll is joined by Chuck Mindenhall and Ben Fowlkes to break down the latest evidence surrounding Jon Jones’s recent criminal charge, including Jones’ seemingly self-incriminating posts on X (0:38).Jones’ retirement disgruntled a lot of MMA fans, including Andy Aspinall, father and head coach of newly crowned undisputed champion Tom Aspinall. Petesy discusses his sit-down with Andy, who didn’t hold back in criticizing the UFC’s handling of the heavyweight title picture (26:06).So what’s next for the heavyweight champ? The trio considers the top contenders for Tom Aspinall’s first title defense. Ciryl Gane, Francis Ngannou, and Alex Pereira are the names most fans are calling for. The guys weigh the pros and cons of each option (37:59).Jon Jones may be dominating the headlines, but UFC 317 is fast approaching. The lads preview the Ilia Topuria vs. Charles Oliveira super fight and close the show highlighting their favorite storylines heading into this weekend’s card (49:36).  

Do not adjust your screens, ladies and gentlemen. It is Wednesday and it is the crack. Crackheads, how are you? Yes, I know it's usually Friday, but today we're doing this to cater to our lovely team who are off to Sin City for the big fights on Saturday night. I am still here in Blanchardstown. I have a wedding to go to at the weekend. I can't be involved in all this hoopla. However, as you may have seen, today's thumbnail is all about Tom Aspinal and his reign, which we know began on Saturday night at the press conference after the Azerbaijan card. But today, a lot has happened and there has been a lot of chaotic tweets from a certain John Jones, who we've been talking about since Saturday, who we learned on Saturday, was allegedly involved in a hit and run back in February in Albuquerque.

It's not his first one. And we have seen a lot of action on his social media accounts today. And the lads, the boys in the back yesterday went through the body cam footage that release was released on Tuesday. And I'm going to read from an article on Uncrowned now to get you all up to date. This article titled They slit throats body cam footage from alleged John Jones car crash appears to show further threatening officers. I'll read from it now.

Albuquerque police has released body cam footage from the scene of a car accident that former UFC champion John Jones is accused of fleeing from in late February. In the video obtained by the Albuquerque Journal, a police safety aide arrives on the scene of the crash on the night of February 21st and is handed a cell phone by the woman in the passenger seat. She claims that Jones was the person driving the car and encourages the police safety aide to talk to Jones on her phone. Once the aide activates speakerphone,

we hear a voice that sounds very much like Jones, though clearly inebriated and slurring at times. He immediately begins making threats, referencing surveillance techniques and repeatedly mentioning his brothers, who he employs will kill people for him. They slit throats, the man on the other end of the phone says at one point, they're the most evil people you'll meet. The woman on the passenger seat who says the car is hers identifies the man on the phone as a former UFC champion who just this past Saturday announced his retirement from MMA and vacated his heavyweight title. The man on the phone repeatedly suggests that he can have people killed even over minor issues. That's John Jones. He was the one driving the vehicle. The woman tells the police safety aide.

The aide then explains that due to the threats, he has to call another officer with the Albuquerque Police Department. Immediately after that, the man on the phone continues making threats. Guess what? You won't be the first guy this year that I've threatened. Swear to God, the person on the phone says, you'd be the second one. My brothers, they kill people for way less. It also should be noted that Christopher Dodd, Dod, Jones' attorney, pushed back on the charge

in a statement uncrowned earlier this week claiming that an intoxicated woman used a false allegation against Jones to avoid being arrested for driving while intoxicated and the police fell for it. Dodd also said the police sought a warrant for Jones' cell phone records which he insisted was highly unusual for a misdemeanor traffic investigation of this kind. I have never heard such a thing Dodd said in the statement. It is truly unbelievable that the police would waste this amount of resources on such a case. The only thing I can think of is that the police were targeting John for improper purposes. We will get to the bottom of it and make sure this basis case is dismissed. Now, before I bring in

my great colleagues, Chuck Mendenhall and Ben Foulkes, it should be said that a deleted tweet is in circulation. Many outlets have reported on this and it seems as though John has implicated himself. Although he is not referencing the Feb 21st or hit and run of any kind, he has posted this and then deleted. It says, whoever was on the phone with me at first, his timestamp is different. By the time I was acting aggressive on the phone, it was a completely different conversation. I was already in my paranoid and defensive state.

Now that appears to be referencing the body cam footage we were just discussing. Obviously, that is not confirmed. It is now deleted, but I think I've set the table enough and we are safe to bring in the great Chuck Menhlaan, the great Ben Foulkes. Lads, I am glad to see you. That was a long introduction and you know, I was not looking forward to doing that. You handled that though, man. You handled that. That crushed it.

Yeah. You know, this is one of those situations where these, the, the stories say this is a lot to unpack that this, I think this qualifies. Yes. Um, I mean, this is crazy. I don't even know where to begin, Ben. Um, you've been tweeting up a storm about this yourself, but, uh, since Saturday, what a crazy chaotic scene it has been around Jones.

Um, these allegations he's tweeting up a storm. I believe we have some examples of that. We can get into that in a minute, but, uh, this is, this is pretty unhinged stuff. Isn't it also kind of maybe the most fitting way for John Jones to go out? Because honestly, people have been asking this question for a while now as it's looked more and more like he is not going to fight Tom Aspynall, where people are like, how much does this stain his legacy? How much will we remember that John Jones, who, you know, might've been one of the greatest

fighters we've ever seen, left when he still had a big challenge on the table and decided instead to retire. And now I think you also have to ask the question, how does it look to go into retirement like this, where it's not just that you're avoiding Tom Aspinall. It's also that you've got this controversy hanging over your head and a controversy that is so similar to many instances we've seen John Jones get himself into. Like the whole thing, getting into the car, being accused of getting into a car crash and running off. We've seen him do that before, uh, making these threats against people.

We've heard him accused of that before that, that thing with the drug tester, the drug test collection agent that, uh, happened not that long ago, basically accused of being the, of doing the same stuff there. And to go out like this honestly feels like, yeah, that's, that I guess is how it should go, that should remind us that this stuff too, was a part of John Jones's story. Like those are the two parts of John Jones's story. Said he was an amazing fighter inside the cage and he was always his own biggest obstacle throughout his entire career. I think one of the things that we all remember about John Jones, in addition

to how great he was as a fighter, was that he left a lot on the table because of the years of his prime he missed for one misbehavior or another and stuff like this that's clouding people's ability to just appreciate the athletic talent, that's all that's clouding people's ability to just appreciate the athletic talent. Like that's all part of the story. And the fact that he goes out like this, that feels like, okay, yeah, maybe that will help people remember all of it and not just the highlights, which sometimes tends to be how it is once a few years pass. Yeah.

It's kind of crazy that, um, the pattern is so established that when you started this off like, is it, this is fitting, right? And I'm, it's not surprising. Like it's the kind of thing when you see it, you're like, well, of course, you know, it's like the devil on one shoulder, the angel on the other, of course you're going to go through both sides of this. Cause we've never had a real moment where John Jones doesn't have that other side to him, right? Like he's always in trouble.

There's always something, you know, to the point where we, I was speculating like a lot of people, like you're like, these things are too coincidental to come out at the same time. It's almost like he's announcing his retirement just to get in front of the other thing or the, you know, the, the headline will be, uh, you know, less, whatever, like, but then you find out from Ariel who talked to Jeff Grammer, I think it was from the Albuquerque, uh, paper who said it was coincidental. They, he just went to the, he just went and looked to see if John Jones had been

in any trouble, found out that he had, and then that became a story around the same time. But man, this is just one of those patterns where I think for us, the people who followed him the whole way, since he, you know, debuted way back 17 years ago, it's very difficult to hear him and his excuses and to see, you know, the tweets that come out, all the things, all the, all the kind of almost self-sabotage, you know, the guilty things, the, the things he does, and then the sincerity, the other way of, you know, I'm, I'm leading the best life and I, I do all these things for whatever.

Like, and then you just keep going around and around in the circle. It's, it's such a pattern that I feel like now, you know, the one thing is he won't have the balance, he won't have the balance of being a champion, he won't have the balance of fighting. And that's scary. Yeah.

Frankly. You know, first of all, you mentioned the, the Albuquerque journal, getting on this story and the balance of being a champion. He won't have the balance of fighting. And that's scary. Yeah. Frankly. Okay. You know, first of all, you mentioned the, the Albuquerque journal, uh, getting on this story and saying they just put his name in there to search since why not when the news comes that he retires. I do want to shout out, uh, JOTY Suzanne Davis over there on Bees, uh, Blue Sky, because she was on this one. She, she, she kind of threw it up there right as this was happening, where she was like, oh, by the way, John Jones has another criminal charge

hanging over his head. She was the first one that I saw to really kind of get on that. So shouts out to Suzanne Davis, uh, Susie Cousy over there, but she also, you know, like you could see why somebody would be like, Hey, might as well just check. Because it's not like it would be unheard of. Like checking a hot table and blackjack. You're like, let me just throw a chip on there and see. Well, and the thing is too, like you said, where he knew, this happened in February.

He knew all this time that he'd been out here tweeting about like, Hey guys, I'm just living my best life. Everything is going great. I'm monetizing this amazing personal brand that I've built. I've grown so much as a person. He was doing all that when he knew that this had happened. He knew that this was kind of like hanging over his head and he was still trying to like, tell us like, I'm not ducking anybody, man.

I'm just living such a wonderful, blessed, relaxed, amazing life. And it was like, I don't know, man. Cause we heard you on the search sounds like you on a body cam footage. And then you're kind of going out there and saying it was you, uh, immediately going to, I can have you killed. I know people that can have like some, it's amazing how quickly he seems to go to that as just like a go-to thing that you say in a conflict with somebody over the phone, like that, that right there is alarming that that's just one of the

first things off the top of your head. But to have like all that going on while you were telling us you've grown so much as a person, no man, it seems as if anything that you've regressed, the same kind of guy, but worse in a lot of ways. And then to imagine like just like you're his lawyer, you put out that statement. I can't understand why they'd be going after my client's phone records for a misdemeanor traffic charge. Never seen anything like this. And they put out the video where, you know, over

the phone, he seems to be threatening an officer. And then you're telling yourself maybe as his lawyer, well, maybe we, they won't be able to prove that was him. And then he, you wake up one morning and you see the man's been on Twitter all night long and basically admitted it was him. Yes, there is the Ben Foulkes tweet.

Imagine being as low and waking up and realizing that your client just admitted it was him on the phone threatening to have people killed and saying he's done it before. Can we get the other tweets and Jhonny Jordan is such a hard job today because it started off with like, I sent him one tweet and then I sent him all of these. And I mean, look at this. It is insane what we're dealing with here. Like this is, this is some pretty crazy stuff.

Um, crazy coincidence. Bob Marley said, don't worry. He did say that. I did. That's true. That's verifiable. I've been crying. I'm okay with that.

I'm alive old man and still a chicken. I'm okay with that You can't catch me dream on and I'm not even done talking shit. Lol layer deleted change Change me by thinking about this riddle the guy in the brown jacket here. Take my phone He went that way if people start getting away with this. It's gonna start a free-for-all Intelligence, I guess when you have a voice, you should use it. I mean, this is very cryptic, chaotic. And like, I mean, he seems unhinged. Have we ever had somebody dark glimpses into a fighter's mind?

You know what I mean? Now, remember when he was banging his head on the police car in Vegas right after? I mean, just stuff like that. The first time he ever really came in where you're like, this is a dude with a Janus face, like it just switches, like, uh, like it was when the Quarmy, a backstage thing, do you remember that? Like, and then they, the footage came out. I remember that one.

Yeah. I mean, it's like, it's one of those things. I mean, that was really what put the heat behind that rivalry and made it into such a big deal, but you could just how chilling and weird John Jones got. Out of nowhere. It was like, get the cameras on and so, and then it just went dark as soon as like it. It's just, it's crazy to catch these glimpses. And when he does this sort of thing, especially

like you're mentioning Ben, like his brothers are high profile, if that's what he's talking about, his brother high profile athletes, one of them who had a pretty psych, you know, psychological breakdown himself, Chandler Jones. And, but he's kind of throwing them into these comments, it's just, it's, it's bizarre and dark and just how casual.

Did you take that to mean his actual literal brothers? Because I thought. I don't know. I thought we were saying brothers as in good friends. It could be. And frankly, if I was one of his brothers, I

would, I would want to come out and be like, guys, I think he was talking about friends. I do feel like he has. His enablers got to be, his enablers have to be a special kind of person to kind of put through, go through with all this. So if that's the brother, if those are the brothers he's like referring to, um, yeah, I

wouldn't put it past him because that's a lot to deal with all the time with John Jones to protect him and let him, uh, just kind of continue to be a two-faced dude, like, you know, who's just going to live this life. I mean, and clearly he has that, he has enablers in Albuquerque. One of the enablers his entire career, basically, right? Like, I mean, that's how we've, we've gotten here in a way is that like, he's been able to do this stuff and face no consequences just because there's so many people who have

a financial interest in keeping him busy, keeping him fighting and making sure that he's shielded from consequences. And so that's how you end up in a situation like this, where like he kind of feels like he can keep doing this stuff and nothing's nothing's going to happen to him. One person who definitely isn't one of his enablers is Derek Brunson, who had this tweet to put out earlier today. John Jones and I used to hang out just about every day when I was in town from 2011 to 2014.

One day we went out and I said to him, bro, why are you doing all this? Let's just hang out with the ladies and have fun. The extra stuff isn't needed. They're already here with us. He looked at me and said, I don't need a dad. I need a friend. This was the last time we hung out. I couldn't sit back and watch.

I have to be honest with my friends. I mean, this is like, I can't stop thinking about what you just said at the top of this joke where like he doesn't have the thing to balance himself out now. Like, and this seems like, uh, I think it's, I think it's fair to say that those tweets appear to be from someone who was intoxicated in some kind of way. I think it would be a fair estimate to make. And then you have like, you know, people you say this about Connor as well. Like at least if you get him in the camp, he has to clean up. Like he has to clean himself up and he has to stay straight. You know, the risk factor in what this man does for a living. He has to tune in. He has to clean up, like he has to clean himself up and he has to stay straight. Um, you know, the risk factor and what this man does for a living.

He has to tune in. He has to do everything right. We know that hasn't been the case historically. We know that the first Gustafsson fight, he openly said, you know, I was partying all the way through that. Like this is this, I know it's dark already, but this could get a lot darker. Right. Yeah, I think it could, you know what, man, for years, I think behind

the scenes you talk to people and they have these concerns, like anybody who's been around. But I've always kind of, and I don't want to be irresponsible man, like, but I've always wondered if he's slightly sociopathic. I mean, only in the sense that if you go back to the earliest times, and I told you guys, I think when we were talking about him last time, the

first time I interviewed him was right after he beat, uh, the first time I really sat down with right after he beat Mauricio Shogun Hua and he was, I remember he went on this whole rant about, I would never be sponsored by Budweiser or any kind of alcohol that would just send the wrong message to my fans. And, uh, you know, just so good at tuition. I remember joking, how, how did you end up in the fight game, you know, because we're at this time,

he's the best son, he just caught a purse snatcher and all this. And he laughed, whatever. We turned the, we turned the digital recorder off and we're just kind of sitting there and wrapping it up. And he's like, man, I am high as hell right now. And I was like, oh my God, like, how do I even

approach this because I didn't, you know, I didn't suspect any of that, but that that's just the one example. I mean, this is just, but there's, it's kind of the mimicry of a moral compass. It's the mimicry of emotion where you can't find the genuine person. You can't find it. The zero fear of consequence, the repeated patterns, the kind of egotism that goes into, I mean, there are a lot of weird signs that point, you can point to, I don't know if that's it,

but man, he demonstrates some strange behaviors. And I thought if by the time he got into this portion of his career 10 years ago, for instance, you know, if he's, you know, in the tail end of his thirties, you were hoping he'd straighten it out, but it doesn't seem like that's even a possibility right now. It just seems like this is who he is. Yeah.

And there's a, I remember I thinking about this early on in his career. He was always very concerned with legacy, how people perceived him. Like, you know, he, he at times during this Tom Aspinall stuff has acted like, oh, I don't care. I don't care. Strip me. Do you think I care about that? And like, I think you care a lot about what people think of you.

And especially about legacy, you know, that's the whole reason he said he wanted that steep a fight in the first place was he wanted to like leave behind a certain legacy. But I also think he is always overestimated to what extent he gets to tell us who he is and what his legacy should be and how we should perceive him. And he always has sort of had that disconnect where he like, remember back in those days where he was just like trying to really portray himself as the,

uh, like a choir boy essentially. And you had people who knew him being like, you know, you had Rashad telling you very early on what they were, or teammates at Jackson Winklejohn gym saying, that's not who he is. He is, he's putting on a face for you guys. And that ended up to be very much true. And even now, you know, like toward the end of his career, where he's just sort of telling you like, Hey, I'm going to say I'm fighting steep A because he's

the greatest heavyweight and kind of thinking the rest of us won't notice that he was one foot out the door and on the wrong side of 40 by the time you fought him. Like he really kind of thinks that he can just tell you, or he can craft it a certain way and then set it on the table and we're all just going to accept his version of it. And this kind of stuff is the thing that really it interrupts that because this is the stuff you'd probably rather not see and rather not know about him.

But it's at this point, it's so much a part of his story that you can't possibly ignore it. It's a good time to bring up a comedy made on Instagram here, referring to that classic image we've talked about a number of times in this show. And I don't know if you guys have seen this. And let me just try and get the font up here. And it's a picture of all the champions. And you've talked about this a lot Chuck,

that it's 2011 era and when they were all up there on the stage, all of them retired now and John Bones, he shared this with this quote, I guess everybody else gets to retire just not when you're still dominating. Funny how that works. Forget personal goals, forget business ventures. Some folks really believe you should fight until they say you've had enough. Wild. Imagine thinking grown men shouldn't control his own destiny. And I think this is fitting because that's essentially Well that conclusion like, you know, at the end of the year, he could have, you know, it's like, you could have said, ah, exactly. I don't think anybody disagreed with his ability to like decide for

himself when his career was over. But why did we need to basically string Tom Aspinall and everybody else along for so long, just to then retire via a phone call to Dana White that he announces at a press conference from Baku. Like that, that's just such a weird way to like, why couldn't you have done that after the steep a fight, if that's what you wanted to do, you know, it, it makes no sense to, to just do this and like, you don't, you'd rob yourself of having that moment at that nice moment where you get to retire in the cage or you get to

retire when the, you know, the cameras are all on you instead, you get Dana White being like, Oh, BT dub got a call from John Jones last night. He's retired. That's such a bizarre way to do it. It's, it's also like, it's clearly affecting him. You know, as much as you just said there, Ben, like he wants to control how we feel. He wants to control how people look at his career.

Look at, look at what's happening. Look, look at this. Tyrant like he is obviously affecting him, how people are thinking about this. But Chuck, what, what do you think? Do you think the UFC have any feelings when they're seeing this? Like, you know, this, how unhinged he is now and thinking, Jesus, we were really given this guy the benefit of though, for a very long time when obviously in February, he wasn't taken it that seriously.

Obviously now obviously Thailand, everything. Look, you know, we've, we have countless examples of a guy not looking like he's preparing to fight. Do you think they have any kind of buyer's remorse in the hopes that he would have fought Aspinal here? Ah, you would think so. And I mean, honestly, the way that, you know, Dana, like there was no preconceived idea, even though we were all talking about, like there was no preconceived idea, even

though we were all talking about, but there was no, obviously he's saying, he called me last night, he retired zero fanfare to this whole thing. So I don't know how it went on, but I don't know how you can be anything but mad if you're Dana White, because I keep pointing this out because it was absurd in 2024, he's on a victory tour for John Jones, defending this Miocic fight, which had already been on the radar for a full, you know, it ends up being on the radar for a full year before it actually happens. So the full extent of its absurdity is in play by the time it actually comes around. Um, but the one guy who was on his side happens to be the promoter himself,

Dana White, telling everybody he's the goat. He's the pound for pound King, you're crazy, arguing with him, all this stuff. And to then go on record afterwards and, you know, institute basically the interim title, but to go on record afterwards and just keep guaranteeing doubling down that this fight is happening. I don't know how this, this is one of the worst looks I can remember for, like in terms of a fighter, you know, a fighter and a fight and all the, all the one of the worst looks I can remember for, like in terms of a fighter, you know, a fighter and a fight and all the, all the types of things with

Dana's guarantees. It's one of the worst looks I've seen Dana have to suffer publicly where it's like, wow, man, you lost that one. And this guy has screwed you before. He has screwed you before to the point where, you know, UFC 151 comes to mind. I know that Jones likes to, uh, to talk about that one, but there were a lot of time. What is this the third time he's been stripped? I guess this time he's retiring.

However, you want to look at that, but he's been stripped before he's put you in pickles before. So to kind of get back in the Jones camp and really double down on it. I mean, it's the, it's the egg on Dana's face at this point, right? Like, I just feel like he lost, he very publicly lost this. But also it leaves your heavyweight division in such a rough spot, you know, because it's just, it's like, you already lost the, the lineal nature of the heavyweight title when Francis Ngannou left.

You know, he was the lineal MMA heavyweight champion and he walked away with that. And as far as MMA is concerned, he still is, you know, cause he hasn't lost in MMA since then. But you, you have John Jones fight Serial Gone for a vacant belt. And so it's like the belt that John Jones wins, he already didn't take from a champion. And then he's going to go and leave with that belt. And so now you got Tom Maspedal, another guy who didn't be the champion to become a champion. He just gets promoted to undisputed champion and is looking around like now

what and, and the now what is kind of a bummer, man, because it's like, what do you have Tom Aspynall versus Cyril Gaughan? It's like, okay, fine. You know, I still say if you could, if you could sign Francis Ngannou and get him back, it solves every single one of your problems as the UFC. If you go all the way back to the Ringer show, we did, we'd see like a couple of years ago, it's crazy, kept going on about the Jones and Ghanu fight. We need this to happen.

And I remember saying, I was like, you know what we're going to end up getting is Cyril Ghan versus so-and-so. Like we didn't know exactly what it'd be. And we laughed and we're like, you know, it's so true though, that every time you go through these scenarios, you end up with like some distant consolation prize that you can't really even fathom yet. And we've arrived at that moment boys. I mean, like that's what we're getting.

It's like zero gone being thrust back into a shot. And, uh, at least there's Aspinal because if it was a, you know, if it was just complete journeymen now, guys who've been beating up each other for a long time and that's what you're left with, It'd be a lot worse, but still it's, it's like that digressive, like, uh, you know, it reminds me of what the Conor McGregor thing when he went away. It's like, we went so far from the original point, you know, when he went to the boxing ring and all

these things were adding up and we didn't get this because of this and you know, it's kind of like that, like Ben just pointed out, like it all goes back to Nganu. The best thing they could do, but the UFC doesn't seem interested in this. And I don't even know the feasibility of this, but the best possibility would be like, if you could get Francis Nganu back, that would still be a huge fight. But, uh, short of that, the division is just going to be what it is now. It's not, there's nothing special about it.

Yeah. Um, I should say I had a very refreshing conversation with a member of the hospital team yesterday and big on the hospital, the OG, uh, he's just, you know, he's saying this to me and I'm like, Andy, you know, this is going to get a big reaction. He's like, yeah, yes, I do. It doesn't like, I mean, here's the thing. And it has got big reaction and it's been aggregated all over the place, which I

expected it to be as the words are coming out of his mouth. I'm like, yeah, this is, this is going to be pretty big Andy. Um, but here's where I really like it. First of all, it's refreshing. Um, it's rare that we hear people giving their true opinion on situations anymore in the sport. And that's a tragedy. That really is like a tragedy for the sport where people are guarding how they feel and

are afraid of the repercussions of saying things. And I think it's so pure because Tom, Tom's coach is Andy, Tom's manager is Andy and Tom's father is Andy and Tom's father is Andy. And I put this out and, you know, the vast majority I can see is everyone's like, yes, and a lot of journalists have gone on to me being like, this is incredible. I love that this happened. I see a lot of people kind of pushing back on it. But the level of intensity that this man is is involved with with Tom's career,

quitting his job when he's 40, a very successful career to focus on his kids because his career taking them away. He used to build obstacle courses around his house to keep them active. So to be swinging out of monkey bars. Um, Tom was sorry. Andy was also one of the pioneers of jujitsu in, in the UK. So he used to go and train with say Hickson would do a seminar and then he'd come back and just drill everything he learned and then he'd be drilling it with his kids. So he used to go and train with say Hickson would do a seminar and then he'd come back and just drill everything he learned.

And then he'd be drilling it with his kids. So he'd been training these guys since they're like toddlers essentially without them ever realizing they're training. They just think they're playing all the time. He gets him all the way to this situation. And then he finds out from a phone call from his son in the middle of the night to say, oh yeah, we're the champion now. They just, they just said at a press conference, like the fact that anyone would be surprised that he was a bit underwhelmed by that is absolutely shocking to me. And another thing I'll say about this before we get into it. Managers in this sport have to keep the relationships with the UFC.

And it's a real, it's a real problem. And there's many layers to this issue. Managers are afraid to back their fighters because of the repercussions on their relationships with the UFC, and it's all over the place. They will serve the UFC before they serve their fighters, as far as I'm concerned. But to see a guy with only one fighter and not have to worry about this at all and And just be like, do you know what? This was bullshit.

He essentially just be like, this is not cool. I thought it was class. Do we have some quotes there on our join? I don't know if you put them up there. Oh, here we go. Um, this is from the article up on, on crowned. Um, and believe me, this has nothing to do with me. If this is a good article, I am just writing 50 words.

Here's Andy, 50 words. Here's Andy. Uh, here it is. I can't think 50 words. Here's Andy. 50 words. Here's Andy. Here it is. I can't think of a worse way you could have done it. This is the announcement of Tom as the new champion. I don't know if pathetic is the word. I just feel they didn't think about it. I don't think Tom deserved to find out a press conference in the middle of the night. It's poor. It's poor man management of Jones and Tom.

I like the person at the USC, but for me, they just don't do things right. Sometimes I think he's right. Okay, go ahead. Sorry. And here it is on Jones. Like, I mean, this, it just feels like he was knocking fucking home run balls out of the park with everything that everyone felt. He's just like, and here's this one.

As soon as Jones got injured and said he needed a year off before he fought steep, he should have stepped aside then. It didn't happen. So we had to wait a year for him to fight Stipe. And that was a bit of a farce because they both looked slow and out shape. Bit of opinion there from Andy, no problem with that. Tell me, do you disagree with anything I said there, Ben? No, I think he's right that it does seem like with some of this stuff, like the UFC is just not thinking about it, you know, and I think that that's like

coming from the top at Dana White where I think he's gotten very used to the UFC just being such a successful brand that there's almost nothing it can do to really hurt the money in any meaningful way. The it's, it's just a cash machine at this point. The money just flows right in there. They're getting paid, you know, especially like you look at this this past weekend, there's a good example where it's like, you're getting paid by the government of Azerbaijan to come in and do a show, whether anybody shows up for that show or

not, you're getting paid. You're getting paid by ESPN, whether anybody watches the show or not. You're just making so much money without there being a whole lot of incentive to necessarily go above and beyond and do a great job of anything. And you just kind of take the fan base for granted at a certain point. These people will be there, you know, we can screw some stuff up. We can fail to deliver on some of these big fights that we promised them. It doesn't matter.

Those people aren't going anywhere. Do you see just like very comfortable in that. And with that comfortability comes a certain like lethargy where they're just sort of like, eh, you know, it'll be fine. It doesn't matter. You know, we'll, and I think that that's what this is symptomatic of. Like he said, I think that just, there wasn't like malice to it or anything. I think that they're just not really that worried about it.

They're like, all right, this is how it played out fine. Onto the next one. I think that that very much is like the attitude and what you said, Pete, see about the state of management in MMA is absolutely true and you can see it. And you see the difference where you have a guy with one client who also he's very close to personally, cause it's his son, but like, he's going to actually stand up for his guy and say what needs to be said because he doesn't have to massage this ongoing relationship with the UFC.

Most of the managers that we see in the UFC, there's a few exceptions, but most of them are essentially, they're just brokers. All they are is they are just like a go between, they work almost more for the UFC than they work for any one fighter. And they're, all of their incentives are in maintaining that good relationship with the UFC and they're just a funnel for the talent. They are not there to really represent the interests of the fighters at all. And the fighters, I mean, so many fighters, it's, this has the only

version of this sport they've ever known. So they just take that for granted. They think that that's just normally how it works and it would blow their minds to see how it works in other sports where it's like, no, your, your manager is supposed to be getting the best deal for you. He's supposed to be working for you. He is not supposed to be buddy buddy with the people that he's negotiating with. Like he's supposed, he works for you and, and they just don't, they've never

known this sport to work that way. And so it is really different when you see somebody come in who doesn't have to do that and you see that such a stark difference. I wish MMA had more of these guys, uh, could just speak up and tell it like it is. And also just, what's great about that piece is just, you get this, you really do think about it. You're like that POV, just imagine being the Aspenall camp, imagine being in that camp. Like honestly, the UFC has done such a horrible job

of getting Aspenall over, of saying like, Hey guys, this is the beast of the division. They have not really done that. They protected Jones. And I'm like, if you're from that camp, you've got to be like, what did we do? All we're doing is like plowing through the if you're from that camp, you've got to be like, what did we do? All we're doing is like plowing through the

dudes you're putting in front of us. And, and we want to fight that guy and we can't, you know, um, but we're also like, like he raises a great point. This is one of the rare times where heavy weight becomes such a big deal. Like so many times we go through these moments where heavy weight's not that big

of a deal in the OC, but when it becomes a big deal, it's obviously heavy but when it becomes a big deal, it's obviously heavy weight. It becomes a big deal for everybody, right? They've done a horrible job of just making us feel the magnitude of having these, this guy who's this wrecking machine. And I think that's what bothered me so much about, um, the whole Jones, uh, you know, ritual thing from last year, where it's like, we're just going through

all the Jones stuff without acknowledging, at least on the level they should have, that Aspinall is that guy, you know, or that he should be that guy or that he's coming, there was no real promotion from it. In fact, I think when he won his, when he defended his interim belt, the question still went to Jones. And if I recall Dana was still, you know, defending Jones. It's like, what are you doing? You used to be in the business of trying to overthrow. And you, but you're always trying to like heat

momentum on the guy coming. You know, it's like, I just, maybe it is apathy. I don't know where it comes from, but that the, that's where it's, it's the game has changed to just announce that just to cast off. You know, if he really, if John Jones was really the Michael Jordan of our sport, if he was, you know, if he was really these things, can you imagine Jordan, the Jordan, Jordan retiring and, you know, the, the, the, the, the he really, if John Jones was really the Michael Jordan of our sport, if he was, you know, if he was really these things, can you imagine

Jordan, the Jordan, you know, Jordan retiring and, you know, it's just like, ah, he retired, he's done, you know, and that's it. Like there's no, there's no ceremony to this whatsoever. There's no kind of hoopla. It's just, from every angle, it's crazy. But I think from the Aspenalls, especially, it just got to feel like a slap in the face, man. I mean, this whole thing, this whole, the way this is all played out, what a slap in the face.

They should, he should already be considered the greatest heavyweight there is already. Well, and also it's this, you're talking about his athletic prime and he's sitting around, he's been waiting a year to even find out what's going to happen with it. And so it's just like, it's heavyweight. They don't have a super long window in just historically speaking.

So to be sitting around and seeing some of these prime earning years and prime like years to really build your own legacy. And you're just waiting around for a thing that was never going to happen while everybody just sort of toys with you and treats you like the least important part of the equation. When you're the guy going forward, like they gotta, you would think that they would have an interest in making sure like Tom Aspinall is built up because he's the guy who's going to carry you forward into whatever is next. There's also like the, the, and you guys, you guys are parents, you'll,

you'll understand this better than I do, but like he kind of gets into it at some stage, like wearing both those hats at the same time. And he's like, I'm coaching this guy to fight these enormous dudes who can touch you and really fuck you up. And they've been messing with him. And in my head, I'm putting him into spares. And I'm saying, is he motivated? Is he switched on? He has nothing to prepare for here. And I'm putting them in with this dude and he could get really fucking hurt. If the slightest thing goes wrong here, he could get really hurt. And here I am with a stop watching my hand going, go for it. Like that is a crazy thing, man.

That like the relationship, the dynamic between these guys is unbelievable. And I don't know. Like I just feel like it to your point, Chuck, like the UFC not promoting him. What a job they've done team Aspenal in terms of getting this public sentiment behind him, because, and I think John Jones obviously helped out a lot. The week he fought Stipe really helped when he was like, oh, fuck them. Blah, blah, blah. And we saw the crowd.

Ariel played this on Monday on the show. We saw the crowd screaming Tommy, Tommy. And that's the first time we're all like, well, fuck them, blah, blah, blah. And we saw the crowd. Ariel played this on Monday on the show. We saw the crowd screaming, Tommy, Tommy. And that's the first time we're all like, well, it's not just us. It's not people within the industry. Everybody loves this guy. Like they need to be commended for that. They have Charlie there doing the media, which he's been doing the vlogs. Tom himself has been putting himself in spots, as I've mentioned to Ariel.

It hasn't been visible for the US audience, but big time slots on BBC and things like this, like this stuff is work. It's not easy. You have to go and put yourself out there. Comedic spots. He's doing question of sports, panel shows, very difficult things to do and rarefied air for MMA fighters. So they need to be commended. And honestly, I guess the the the before all this Jones stuff,

we were going to talk about how you would play this rain. But I think the UFC owe it to him to make these compelling fights. And you know, we're talking about the kind of eye roll with gan, but the likes of Pereira I heard Rick say on Monday, like that is how you get this guy a superstar, you just sell you turn him into a superstar, um, Ben, do you think that the UFC like should entertain the idea of maybe not putting Pereira into a 205 fight and pushing him up for that fight? Obviously he's been kind of posturing, look, he wants this. Like, could that be a viable option for the UFC or do you think, unfortunately

we're going for the eye roll option? No, I think that there's two really good options. If you want to do a big fight for Tom Aspinall and his first heavyweight title defense, the first is Francis Ngannou. If you can, if I mean, it would take Dana White swallowing his pride and going and trying to make a deal with Francis Ngannou, which seems unlikely at this point, although that, that is another wild commentary in the state of the sport right now, is that the thing that might stop you from signing a deal that would

be lucrative for everybody, uh, with the guy who is the lineal heavyweight champ is that Dana White's just like personally, not a fan. Yeah. Don't like him as a person. I said this one day too. Who cares? Who cares who you like as a person? You like a lot of not nice people.

He's like a lot of awful people. You, you were out there, uh, gleefully welcoming Andrew Tate back to the United States and then two weeks later, he was getting accused of a different sexual assault. You do not have to like people in order to make a deal with them in fight sports of all industries. So like that shouldn't even come into it. It would be a huge deal if you could get Francis back.

And if anybody should have to humble themselves at the table in order to get that deal done, it should be the UFC and not Francis. And if you couldn't do that one, and it seems unlikely that they will be able to get that one done, then I do think Alex Pereira is the next best option, because at least you have a narrative there. You can say Alex Pereira is going to attempt to make history by going up and wait to win a belt in a third UFC weight class. And it's not like that's crazy coming off this title loss because that's how

he moved up to light heavyweight was after losing the middleweight title to Israel Adesanya. So he goes up there, works out great for him at light heavyweight. He becomes of anything, a bigger star at light heavyweight than he was at middleweight. He's one of the few guys you have on the roster right now who does feel like a star. Like he still has that quality even after the loss to Michael Maddanc alive. So it's like, you could take that guy, move up to heavyweight. We've seen his magical ability to look as big as whoever he is

standing next to in a photograph. So you could take Alex Pereira, put him in heavyweight. He doesn't look like he doesn't belong. He doesn't, he wouldn't look like this guy is clearly not a heavyweight. He's a big dude and you could have him go and fight Tom Aspinall. And then you've got something that feels big. You got like Tom Aspinall is finally going to defend the title. Try to cement himself as the undisputed champion Alex Pereira.

Here he is an exciting fighter and exciting style. Going to go for a third UFC title. People will get into that. Like you, you could make that feel like something. Whereas if you just did Tom Aspinall versus Cyril Gahn or basically anybody in the top five at heavyweight right now, it feels so much like a plan B or C or D. It feels like we tried to do something cool, couldn't do it. Here's this anyway.

Like it just feels like warmed leftovers, uh, instead of like a big actual heavyweight title fight, you know. Man, I'm sold on the, on the Perera thing. Like after you were, you're sitting there talking about it. I'm like, You're going to throw your boy to the wolves? Chuck, you're going to throw your damn free boy to the wolves. He's a big dude.

He's a big guy, man. I mean, he's not going to be, um, he's not going to be Aspinal big, but he's big enough where I think that, you know, the size difference wouldn't be, you know, so, so crazy that you're like, he has no chance because there's, you know what I mean? Like, I just, I think, and plus you just take in a striking prowess and I think Aspinal.

Yeah, he's faster. All that stuff. Is he? It's pretty fascinating, man. Well, see, see, I mean, that's, this is what we want. This is the debate. I agree though, on every point it'd be interesting to see if that's the direction they go.

I think that that is the biggest fight probably like outside of Ingana, like you mentioned, that's the biggest fight and just even thinking about, cause I hadn't really sat and thought about that fight as you're talking about it, I'm like, yeah, that feels pretty big to me. Um, so that's what Aspinall deserves. I think he deserves some kind of like true coronation where he gets to fight a guy where there's going to be a ton of media and there's going to be a ton of, you know, uh, spotlight to it and just, it feels big.

That's what he deserves after going through all this. So I feel like that's the best option. Open on this journey with, with Tom for a very long time, since he came back from boxing and recording for a long time time since he came back from boxing and recovering for a long time. So he's kind of re-emerged in cage warriors. I've already gave my feelings on this. So I wanted to ask you guys, the record for title defenses is currently three.

And I think a lot of people have looked at this heavyweight division and, and said, this isn't what it used to be. You know, they need some life pumped into it. I think he can break this record. Um, this is interim defense count. Does it count? I don't say no, no. I don't think so.

So I'm talking starting from scratch, man. I mean, but he's currently at zero. Yeah. He's 32. He needs three. And as we know, we have a tie. You need four to break it. Yeah, that's correct. That's three. And as we know, heavy weight. Well, he needs three to tie. You need four to break it. Oh, we need four. Right.

Yeah, that's correct. That's correct. So he would need four. Which at heavyweight could take 10 years. All right, we get it. All right, Ben, you know if it's going to take 10 years. Although he should, he should welcome a fight with Stipe Miocic because that's the guy who has three, right?

Like he should be like, I want to fight Stipe for my legacy. You know, that should be his next call up. True greatest ever if he beats Stipe at the stage. No, but like looking at that, looking at the field as it stands, it seems like he has a very good chance if it all stands the way it is, it's like, that's a pretty good shot, you know, to, uh, to do that, I wouldn't favor any of those guys, there's nobody even stylistically that you're like, well, I don't know. That guy could be a real, you know, real problem. And I think part of that is cause Aspinal is so good everywhere.

Right. So there's that you don't really see the guy coming up. Um, back in the day when we'd have like Cain Velasquez or, you know, these guys, like guys like that, JDS, you always were like, yeah, but that other guy exists, you know, like one of the other would exist and there was a couple behind him of her doom, you know, guys like that who are going to come out. So do you see that on that list? You see the guy that you're like, once this guy gets to him, it could be trouble.

I really don't see it right now. Hmm. Yeah, I don't, but I also, I've been following MMA and the UFC in particular, the heavyweight division long enough to know that there's a lot of ways to lose that title. Well, look how he, look how he lost to blades the first time, you know, 15 seconds in. That's true. That is true. Or, you know, there was a time when we used to talk about the UFC heavyweight

title as just a cursed title, because you're going to get, you get hit by a minivan, you know hit by a minivan. You know, that's happened before. You know, you'll, you can slip on a banana peel and go to like, you could be the UFC heavyweight champion and the thing that could stop you from breaking the all time title defense record is you're walking down the street and a safe gets dropped on your head like a damn cartoon character. That would not be entirely unbelievable in this division and in this sport.

So like, it's not just that I look at that list of people and I see a lot of threats to him. Like I think if anything, that was the big thing that undercut John Jones's argument where he was like, Hey, you guys are telling me I got to stay and fight Tom Aspinall, but if I say invite him beat him, then there'd just be somebody else. And we were kind of going stupid about it. No, there wouldn't.

I know. They're real, they're really wouldn't man, because there's really nobody else right now who really feels like that's the guy you got to be at heavyweight. And so like with John Jones gone and now it's just Tom Aspinall against the field kind of, yeah, like just if we were matching these guys up, like it was a video game, then sure, I would, I would like his chances against absolutely everybody on that list, but there's lots, especially at heavyweight where it's like, you already spent a year waiting around and sort of letting your skills, uh, soften

a little bit, now you've got to get back in there. It, there's just a lot of different things that could go wrong. And it takes so long, like at heavyweight, you know, if we see more than one title defense a year, we're absolutely thrilled. Cause it's just that that title does not go up for grabs that often. So to get four title defenses could take a while. Like you could very easily, that could be a four or five year project. Just knowing the way things go.

It's really hammering this on you, PT. Like he's hammering this. Fuck, we have that ban on the fucking show. That is one thing like I'm thinking about as well, as like, Ariel's brought this up a copious amount of times. Like I fully believe and every conversation I've had with either Tom and his father, and there have been plenty over this period, they're like, we want to fucking fight a lot. Like we want to like, I don't like, do you, do you see how quickly my fights are?

Like, and you'll be like, we're getting in there for one minute. I want him to go the distance. I want to see it. Like, I am as curious as the rest of you. What will happen when this guy goes four rounds? Is that a worry, Ben? Like, will the UFC allow him to, you know, like they have everything so scheduled and this title's here and this title's there.

And as Ariel said, during this whole negotiation period with Jones, there was this idea that, well, we don't have a gap to fill until December. Why, why are we rushing to get this done? Like as much as Andy and Tom might want to do this, the UFC might hamstring them in a way that are like, well, we, we only want you fighting once every six months so we can get all these other titles up. want you fighting once every six months so we can get all these other titles. Yeah. And then you also, they might reasonably feel like, Hey, if you got in there against Cyril Gahn, for instance, and you beat Cyril Gahn, then we need some time to establish who is next and why and when, and, and, and plan for that.

And so, like, I could definitely see that that's going to be an issue. I think it would be an issue for kind of any heavyweight champion. You know, it's not like Valentina Shevchenko, who seems like she could put the title up for grabs every six weeks. You know, it's, it is a different situation to heavyweight and it kind of always has been. But yeah, I could definitely see from their perspective, you want more cage time. You want to get that work in there. And you also want to maximize that earning potential. Once you finally have it, you finally more cage time. You want to get that work in there. And you also want to maximize that earning

potential once you finally have it. You finally get the title. You got the points on the pay-per-view. You should be getting good pay-per-view money as the heavyweight champion. And you can't do that unless they let you get in there and fight. Well, next to John Jones, comparing it to John Jones. I mean, it's going to, he's going to seem like the most prolific heavyweight champion of all time.

Well, that's what he said, right? And like he came out with that video it's going to, he's going to seem like the most prolific heavyweight champion of all time. Well, and that's what he said, right. And like he came out with that video to make his announcement where he's sitting there with the belt on his shoulder. And this is again, to your point, Pizzi, that he has done a good job of doing PR for himself, of getting out there and making himself a thing, making it so that we don't forget it, you know, when he was out there soaking his hands in gas, you know, like that's, that's awesome. Gas hands, Tom is one of my favorite like MMA kind of memes.

And so like that kind of stuff that he's done a good job of that, but he immediately jumped on that, put on, put out that video where he's sitting there. And one of the things he said is I want to keep this belt in rotation. I want to put this up for grabs as often as possible. Let's go like, let's get this division moving. And like, yeah, that is that especially coming from the John Jones heavyweight champ era, it feels very refreshing. You're just like, is the UFC going to be on board with that?

Hmm. Yeah. It's going to be, look, that that's what I've been talking about. I know I said to you guys before they need to have some type of legacy plan. The night he fights, whoever it may be, if it is Gan, have Almeyda and Volkov on the undercard. Like this is who he's fighting next. Just show people a way to be interested and heavyweight again, because it's been on low

support because of this whole situation. You're not going to believe it lads, there's a pretty big card this weekend. And we haven't mentioned one fucking person who's on the card. We may as well have a look now. It's UFC 317. I know we've been talking a little bit about this wild situation, but I mean, what do you want us to do? For Christ's sake, it was absolutely mental today. If any of yous were on X, formerly known as Twitter. There is a massive card this weekend. The boys in the back did a great job of breaking this down.

Yesterday on their show, they have jetted off to beautiful Sin City, uh, where the trees are even plastic. And here we have Ilya Topuri and Charles Olivera at the top of the card. Uh, Rick loves this fight. I am in the mood now. Okay. It's fight week. I fucking like, obviously it's not his man. Were you slow to come to this one?

You, you weren't excited earlier on that, like it took you this long? Oh yeah. I was a bit of like forlorn because I was like, well, it's not the fucking one we wanted, which is obviously a reoccurring theme with the UFC these days. It's a great fight at the top of the card, of course. Pantoja v. Caicara, France is there as well. Royval v. Joshua, Van, Van is absolutely on fire at the moment. Benilde, Dariush v. Hanato, Moicano, Peyton Talbot getting fucking thrown to the lions.

Oh mate, did you lose? Here's Felipe Lima. Best of luck. Jesus Christ. And there's lots of good fights on the undercard too. I wanted to highlight an article Ben wrote. He has Kenny Florian quoted in it, just about hard way cuts. And before I do that, I just want to show you a picture that emerged today.

I believe I saw Le Sur at the French podcast, meaning the sweats, I believe in French. Thank you. And they tweeted this picture earlier. He spent a week in France once. He was, he was, it is quite car of France and Ilya to poor you one competing for the flyway title, the other one competing for the lightweight title, the size situation there, quite compelling,

I'd say, 30 pounds differential. And Ben, you spoke to Kenny Florian, who had some pretty disturbing things to say about the cut to 45. Well, for him, yeah. The reason I wanted to talk to him about it, especially is because he kind of made a very similar cut to, to what Ilya Tupori was doing. Like Ilya said, you know, he's walking around in the one eighties and then having to cut to a one 45 and that it was just miserable.

And especially I appreciated his honesty about it when he was talking on Ariel's show on Monday. And he said, you know, it just makes me start to hate the sport. It ruins any motivation I have to take another fight to like get in there. Cause you just think like, as you're making this terrible cut, you're just like, this is miserable, I never want to do this again. And that, especially like his honesty and saying, I didn't move up for any necessarily career ambition because I want to be able to say I'm a two division

champion or because I specifically wanted to fight Islam Mahatchev. I moved up because I never want to make 145 pounds again. And what Kenny Florian was saying, especially, you know, you hear guys talk about the weight cut is never fun, but there's a difference between, as Kenny said, between a weight cut and a lifestyle change, because in order to get close to a weight that is kind of like at your absolute limit, you need to be making a lifestyle change throughout your training camp to even get you close enough to where the cut becomes reasonable.

And that lifestyle change can be miserable, especially as you're putting in such a tremendous amount of work that Kenny said he was living on 1500 calories a day and training three times a day, six days. Jesus Christ. And like, that's just, you're doing terrible things to your body at that point and it just sucks to live that way. And so you can understand why a guy would be like, I don't want to keep doing that. I would rather take my chances up a weight division.

And yeah, like I do that to me though, is one of the most interesting things about this fight, because for one thing, I wonder which version of Charles Olivera do you get, because that guy still seems real, real good at time. You know, it's like, you look at who he's lost to and it's like, especially recently, and it's like Islam Mahatch at who he's lost to and it's like, especially recently. And it's like Islam Mahatchev, who we know real, real good. And then he had that split decision against Arman Tsarukyan that kind of could have gone either way.

And that guy, especially like Charles Oliver has got good wrestling. It's a sneaky kind of wrestling, but he can get you down. And if he gets you down and he gets top position on you and you're the much smaller guy in Ilya Tuporya and you can't move that guy, you've got problems. You've got major, major problems against a dude like Charles Oliveira, which is one of the things I was surprised. And somebody pointed out in my mail back today, he's like a plus three 30 underdog against Iliya Toporia.

And I was like, I don't see how you get there unless it's just Iliya Toporia's popularity pushing the betting line. Because Olivera is a dangerous fighter here. He's a dangerous opponent to be going up and weight against. And I could see a few different ways that he wins this just because just being the bigger fighter. I could see it, but Olivera, the one thing about Olivera, it's going to be tougher. You know, when he's knocked out in the first round, Ben, because that's what Ilya, that's what he said is going to happen.

You see how nonchalant he said that too. He's like, I'm not going to come out in the first round. That's he, I remember he said that to me when I interviewed him before the Volkanovsky fight and he ended up being right. And then he said, he's going to knock out Max Holloway ended up being right there. So like, Ilya.

That's true, he's calling his shots, man. He's, he's amazing. Like that's, that's the given, right? Like, and especially when he gets to do his stuff, forget about it. Like if you let that guy decide where we're fighting and like the range and the pace that we're fighting at, you're toast. You're just not going to beat that guy there. He, he's so good at getting into the range he wants, getting inside there.

And especially it's like, if he backs you up into the fence, you feel your back touch chain link, you know, piss on the fire and call the dogs. As my father would say, it's a nightmare. And so it's like, Charles Olivera has to be aware of that. He has, he has to keep him out of that range. He has to be the one to decide where you have that fight. Otherwise, once he gets you back there and he can start to put combinations together, he's going to pick you apart.

I do wonder how the power will play out if he still has that one touch power. I'm sure you're. Well, but, but I mean, like if you, if you let that guy get going, it's a nightmare. Yeah. It's a, what do you reckon, Choco? We sleeping on, on Charles here? Like, you know, you mentioned that, that line is full. That is quite disrespectful.

Yeah, that's stupid. Like that is stupid. This is a guy who, what is this? Like 20, I don't even know. 20 finishes like a UFC record. He's, I know he has the record for that, the submissions. You go and scrambles. This is a guy who thrives in chaos.

If he can just make it chaotic, you know, enough for like, where he can get an advantage. We've seen him put guys away. There's so many fascinations to this fight, man. And I guess I kind of was in your camp, Pizzi, where you're like, your initial thing all the way up until this week was just kind of like, wow, there's our consolation prize. We didn't get what we wanted. We're getting this. But that is me sleeping on Charles Olivero when it really gets closer and you start to really remember, like Ben just kind

of went down, like he has looked very good. It's a little deceiving that he's went two and two in his last four, you know? And I think some people want to point that out, but given what those losses were, and especially the Armand fight, which was a coin flip, you know, um, I think you still, he's 35. He's not, I mean, he's had a ton of fights. He's been fighting for a long time, but I haven't seen any diminishing yet.

And so if you just are catching the best Charles Olivero, I mean, this could be a crazy fight. So I, the, what'd you say? Plus three. I mean, that doesn't make any sense to me at all. Yeah. He is 35. Remember though, that stat that people kept

throwing around about being over 35 and any of the like 170 or below. Cause he's, he's over 35. Did it not apply to 155 from Benoit Sandigny and all that stuff? And we had Justin Fourier. It was title fights. It was title fights in the UFC. I feel like when we, when they put, so they, they pointed this out whenever it was not, not so long ago.

And since then, I feel like people have been bucking that trend. Now we'll see if this continues. Volkanosky did it. Yeah. So, I mean, cause every time we have this discussion, I'm like, yeah, you're right. And then like the old dude shows up and like

puts on a hell of a fight. It's crazy that Charles is only 35, considering like how long we've been watching this dude compete. I mean. Yeah. Feels like he's been in the UFC since he was 14. It's wild, man.

It really does. Do you remember the first version of him that showed up, like the skinny guy competing at 155 and you're like, how is this guy fighting at 155? Then he goes the fat away and now he's like one of the great 155ers. Wearing glasses and shit. Like I remember him in Pittsburgh showing up for that fight. What the fuck is this? Yeah.

Nick Lindsay was so, he was such a grumpy dude. Like I was talking to him, he's only like 20 something years old. I remember trying to do it. He's like, it's just grumpy. Didn't want to like even get the translator over. It was just, it was madness. But like, that's one of those, you're like thinking, well, you won't even be in the UFC at this time.

I'm like, you won't even be in the UFC probably in a few years. Here we are. Like, what is it 14 years later? And he's still, you know, fighting for a belt. Well, and that he's gotten so much better. Like that's the thing is that, you know, we often in this sport are too quick to make a judgment about somebody and go, uh, we saw it, we saw what they have and that's it.

And especially since he was so young and you would hear from those guys who had been in the gym with them, they're like, this dude is going to be one of the greats, like he has all the potential there is just very raw right now and it's undeveloped. And he had those early years where you just kind of looked at him and you're like, oh, this is a guy, he's okay. He's kind of in the middle of the pack. But then as he really like matured and came into his own, I had a lot of that, that big fight experience, you know, and now he's like over 40 fights in and you look at him and

you haven't really seen any drop off. You've only seen him start like be a smarter, better fighter, uh, and still have all the same ability that he has. Like that, that does seem like this is a guy could easily kind of spoil the party here as much as I think we all like having Elliot to pour you around. He has that star quality. This could be one where Charles Olivera reminds you that they have these weight classes for a reason. And it might be that he's been in the sports so long, but he's one of those guys who I

think is bigger, like when you're a diehard fan or a diehard, like we, you pay close attention, maybe you don't understand how big Charles Oliver has gotten because my son who's 14, like they know like him and his buddies will know Charles Oliver. They'll, they'll talk about Charles Oliver. And I'm like, so is it like, is he one of the names like you could just pull up in that he is, it's kind of crazy. Like he would be one of the few guys'm like, so is it like, is he one of the names? Like you could just pull up in that he is. It's kind of crazy. Like he would be one of the few guys, like, so my son really pays

attention because of me, but like the guys he hangs out with who peripherally watch, they know Charles Olivera. And I'm always like, I feel like his star is way bigger than I understand being so close to the action, you know? Um, so it's not the worst thing if he goes in there and springs out upset. I still feel like he's got that, you know, that kind of, uh, cult of personality himself now. A lot of people in the world of that horse cart racing thing that he does,

who are very excited about it. What do you call that? The version of horse racing he does with the guys and a little buggy behind it. That's what Ting looks as well, isn't it? The, your boy, uh, Don Chichisin did that as well, isn't he? The horse racing with the courage. Jokic. Jokic is who you're talking about. Yes, he loves it. Yes, isn't it? Your boy Donja Cheezing did that as well, isn't he? The horse racing with the courage. Jokic. Jokic is who you're talking about.

Yes, he loves it. Yes, he loves it. I was like, my boy's gotta be talking to you, Ben. Like, I don't know what Donja is. For fuck's sake. I do, I will say, I was in Melbourne in October, 2019 when Adesanya knocked out Whitaker and he did that dancey thing on the way out. Yeah.

And I know we- I was at that one too, Pizzi. How did we not get together? We were some beers at that one. I don't know. I think I was afraid. I think it was, I was taking Ariel's place and out of my foot and I just stayed in my room going, Oh fuck. Oh no, they're going to find out.

I know nothing. I did not. I went out and I had a good time in Melbourne. Great, great city. I did. I went there, Ireland, we're playing rugby. I went there one night. Whew. time in Melbourne. Great city. I did. I went there. Ireland were playing rugby. I went there one night. I don't remember getting home, but that's a different story.

It does remind me, Ilya kind of has that feel often though. I can remember the day after we kind of did an unpacking thing with the great Esther Lynn and Casey, Casey Lutton. And we were kind of saying, isn't it great when someone comes along and just injects that energy into the sport? We were like, oh, this is, I'm excited. My jaded dead heart is beating again. And it's like, yeah, like it, Ilija kind of gives you that feeling, doesn't he boys? Like he makes you kind of go, fuck, this is, this is really exciting. Like he looks like a fucking GQ cover.

He talks like a bad motherfucker. He fights so beautifully. And he just seems to be saying all the right things. The McGregor parallels are there. They are accurate to it, to, to a very big degree. Um, he's getting that same feeling about this guy. Like he is, he is the superstar, the next one. He is going to be the guy. Yeah.

He has, I mean, he has all those pieces in play. And what's more encouraging is that there's been no sign that any of it is getting to his head really, that any of it is changing the way he, I mean, he did change camps for this one, but that also seemed like just sort of a, a normal, like, uh, Hey, we couldn't get our schedules in sync. You do wonder a little bit about how that plays out, you know, but he doesn't seem like he's out there in the clubs punching people. It doesn't seem like he, he took up the fame and the money and is going crazy with

it. He seems like he seems like he's in the gym still because he wants to be, because he genuinely enjoys it. And that's where he would prefer to be. It doesn't seem like he is on any sort of look, one of those familiar, troubling trajectories at least yet. Um, but yeah, like you, you feel like this is a guy who should be a big star. He keeps calling his shots too.

I mean, if he really goes in there and just smokes Charles Olivera in round one and just blows them up. I mean, that kind of thing translates really huge when you make something that's that difficult, that we just want to talk to about all this stuff. Uh, Olivera's I mean, he'll do it. You can make that look easy and just back it up. Everything you're saying, like that's going to translate pretty big. Um, it's, it's, uh, obviously, uh, Pantoja in the co-main event

against Koykara France, you know, it's going to be a great fight. I think Pantoja, we're all kind of giving them that cult love now. Like he is a guy, you know, maybe floating out under the radar for the casual sports fan, but MMA fans fucking love this guy. Pants. And we're calling them, which is fantastic. But can we have nice things anymore, Chuck? Like is there any way that the UFC will do this more rap thing that we keep talking about

and nobody else seems to be just media and fans going, Oh, imagine if this happens and then that happens and then suddenly they want to do fun things again. Or should we just give up? I'm trying to find realistic things now because everything that I want, you know, with the, especially with the Jones fights and then with Ilya and, you know, Islam, we couldn't get that. So I just want like, I just want Patty Pimlet to get a shot, you know, again, I just want to see that, that feud resolved, you know, with Ilya, that would be fun. Like these are reasonable, right?

Like these should happen if they just kind of keep on their courses. Um, but what, if, are you talking about the Pantoja? Like him finding it? I mean, that feels realistic to me, doesn't it? Like that feels like it should happen. I just feel like the UFC are just afraid, you know, like of, of putting two two champions together, diminishing one for whatever reason, but like, it's the shit that we get this excited.

Like, I want to get my blood flowing, baby. What are we saving it for at a certain point? Put that one in your back pocket. Hold onto that. Yeah. Well, and cause it's just like, in this sport, there are so many ways to lose it. Lose the, the opportunity to make some of those fights. Uh, if you wait too long, you know, somebody goes to jail, somebody gets

a run over by a moped, you know, like there's, there's all that kind of, like when you, if anything we learned over the years in this sport, when there's a big fight and there's an opportunity to like make a fight that people be very excited about on both sides, go ahead and make it. Don't try too hard to build up to it. You're going to get crow cop, get kicked in the head by Gabriel Gonzaga. You're going to get Fador beaten the first round of your, your, your heavyweight tournament, all that kind of stuff reminds you like, don't think that you can just plot a course forward.

There's just too many weird things that could happen. Go ahead and make those fights. My brother's gonna kill you Ben. My brother's going to kill you. Is it the best card of the year so far? It's a little top heavy. It's a little top heavy, but, uh, like, uh, you know, that's, that's, you could end up getting like a lot of great action from some of those undercard fights, but it seems like this is one where everybody kind of showed up That's as you could end up getting like a lot of great action from some of those

undercard fights, but it seems like this is one where everybody kind of showing up to see the main event, maybe the co-main event and everything else is just sort of. There you forget we had during he bus too, the kickoff this year. I mean, all of a sudden we're not even remembering January anymore. No, I think that, uh, the one cool thing about this card honestly is like the Josh, like Joshua van that, what a great bang for your buck because the dude just fought on June 7th. He's going to end up, he's 23 years old.

I feel like he could catapult himself in one month's time from just kind of a prospect into a contender, um, by, by winning this fight against Royval. That's fun. Peyton Talbot like has this, uh, you know, this kind of cult thing going on with him. We'll see if he's able to kind of handle, like, you know, this kind of cult thing going on with him.

We'll see if he's able to kind of handle, like, you know, the pressure here and, and get back in there. And then, uh, there's this dude, I don't know how much, I just did this piece on Jacoby Smith. I don't know if you guys have paid attention to him at all. He had a huge knockout. Uh, that's the only reason I know about Dern Hibos too, is because he was on that card, but anyway, he, he knocked out, uh, uh, Preston Parsons with, I

thought it was a beautiful knockout. That's why I wanted to talk to him. Um, it was just such a clean knockout. He's on this card against Nico Price as a. Oh, I saw the first thing I like Nico Price is something like, you know, a, uh, 10 to one underdog or something along those lines, which is just absurd. But I think that this kid, like like when you really start looking into a story a little bit, you kind of understand it.

I feel like he could be one of those breakout type of guys that we're not even seeing coming and then all of a sudden he's there. Um, so I think what's, uh, it'll come out today, I think. I got a piece on him. Yeah. So, I mean, so there's some kind of like up and comers, I guess, you know, that like to keep an eye on that, that kind of makes, I like cards like that where there's the future is kind of fighting and you're, you're getting real

glimpse of what they look like, um, at a big moment. We also had, um, a bit of news about the UFC Nochi, Nochi UFC card, September 13th. A lot of talk about this with, uh, with the, uh, the Crawford Canelo fight and all this, uh, TKO business, let's, let's get it up there. Whoa. It's Diego Lopez of Brazil against John Silva of Brazil for a notch UFC. Lads. It's a fucking great fight.

I'm not, you know what I mean? I'm taking the piss a bit there. It's meant to be a celebration of Mexican heritage. Of course, Diego Lopez is based in Mexico, but two Brazilians, let's be honest. At least this time it's not Riyadh season. Remember the last time I was like, you know, Mexican independent Riyadh season. They confused everything on that last, that card at the sphere. Both you boys are at that card at the sphere, weren't you?

I was not. I was there. Oh, sorry. So I didn't see Ben. I look for him. Hiding in the shadows. Well, there you go, Ben. You can go to Nochi UFC September 13th, see John Silva and Diego Lopez. That's a killer fight.

It honestly, like the, just stylistically, the kind of thing you're going to get out of that fight. That's yeah. I love it. Are we killing off John Silva though? Like, I mean, this seems like a bit of a leap. Um, you know, I want to see him. Yeah. I like John Silva in a leap. Um, you know, I want to see him. Diego.

Yeah. Yeah. I like John Zylvain that one. Honestly. Damn. Well, listen, uh, Jordan in my ears, tell me if I'm wrong. Lord knows I have been, uh, Thursday, I believe 1130, uh, Vegas time is that Pacific time, so that would be, help me. That is two 30 Eastern, a seven 30 Irish time.

Um, the shows will be beginning from Vegas. Our fantastic team are over in sin city on air. Jordan over in sin city right now. Andy is there. Frank is there. GC is there. Rick is there. Ariel is there.

We are not there. However, we weren't invited. What was it? And by the notably not there. However, we weren't invited. What was it invited? Notably not invited. I'm trying to, I'm trying to fucking pump the schedule here. It's fine. I'm not upset about it. Um, yeah.

So two 30 ET 1130 tomorrow, the lads will be kicking everything off. Make sure you watch. There is a steamed guests. Believe me, lots of a steam guests. That will be Thursday, Friday. I believe it's either 1130 again, Pacific time to same time again. Yes. Thank you on air, Jordan.

And then Saturday, you're going to have the watch along with GC and Rick. You are going to have a post show. I'm not going to be on the post show this week. Hearing a certain had a gentleman that may be on your screen. We'll be there, however. And so a lot of, a lot be on your screen. Uh, will be there however. Um, so a lot of, a lot of shit going down. It is a massive fight week. I've got to go to a wedding.

I've got a lot of things on. I can't speak about on air. I was telling the lads beforehand. It's going to be an eventful few days for Peter Carroll. I'll tell you that much. Stay tuned to un-crown. We are keeping MMA journalism alive, baby. What about Shaheen Alshadi?

What are, where are people people gonna start slapping us on the back for this shit? Real journalism, uncrowned, baby. Shaheen Alshadi, best editor in the world. Ariel Awadi show, best goddamn show in the world. Well, the crack obviously. Lads, you are fantastic. We love you.

I hope you were entertained by our Wednesday slot. I know we did a lot of talking, not regarding 370. Ah, he forgot. Every time I was waiting for it. Fuck you were rolling. You were almost out. I nearly signed off well for the first time ever. Holy shit. Jimmy co in the house.

Give me an honest answer. Thomas not fought champ level fighters. That is a fact. How, how would he have more than a puncher's chance against Jones? Oh my Lord. Well, okay. In fairness, like I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying about like the level of competition, but you could only beat the people they give you.

If they don't give you anybody else higher than that, like he, he can't do much about that. He wanted to fight Jones from what I understood. He wanted to try to fight him. Honestly, sorry, what, what heavyweights, uh, you know, like elite level? Like, I mean, we're talking with Steve Bay and Miochi just 42. He was limping just several months before that fight out of MSG or somewhere like that. Like, I mean, are we, are we like, I think that's disrespectful to say that, that John

Jones fought even near the best version of Steve Bay and Miochi did not fight. Oh no, he did not. But like John Jones stylistically does present best version of Stipe in the OJJNF. Oh no, he did not. But like John Jones stylistically does present like a lot of problems for somebody like Tom Aspinall. The thing is, if you ask me, why did Tom have better than a puncher's chance? Because father time is undefeated. And this was not the same version of John Jones that was taken apart. Everybody at light heavyweight.

This is, you could see like in that, uh, steep a fight, Andy Aspinall was not totally wrong that they both looked older, slower, a little out of shape. Like that, that version of John Jones did not look as good as prior versions of John Jones and that's just how time works. So that right there is Tom Aspinall having a chance. And let's not forget that, uh, Dominic Reyes, Tiago Santos. I mean, they, they did pretty good against John Jones. They did.

Yeah, they did. And I believe like, didn't, um, didn't like, didn't he, uh, submit Arlovski who hadn't been submitted since he fought Josh Barnett about 10 years before or something like that. Like what we, what I know, like obviously Arlovski is no ADCC champion or whatever. He was famously a puncher when he came into the UFC all those years ago when he was the heavyweight champion. He was all about knockout power, undersized heavyweight. We all loved him, but he hadn't

been submitted. And if you look at Asimov on the ground there, very similar to what we see on the feet, he moves like a fucking cat. Like the guy is a supreme athlete and I would have loved to see that fight. Like I'm not, I'm not saying Asmol, I thought he would have won the fight, but I would have loved to see that fight because Jones is incredible. Jones is absolutely incredible for her. I mean, look, it's a shame that we're not here just reeling off how incredible John Jones is, but unfortunately he's given us a different terrain to play with over the last few days. Like I see that a lot and people are like, why aren't you celebrating?

It's hard to celebrate when you've got all this shit going on. You know what I mean? to play with over the last few days. Like I see that a lot and people are like, why aren't you celebrating? It's hard to celebrate when you've got all this shit going on. You know what I mean? It really is. And believe me, I've been covering Conor McGregor since 2009. I watched him compete in GA halls. Watch how magic he was. I've been telling people for years, he was better than you thought he was. But with all this stuff going on, it starts, you cannot talk about all of the

great things without talking about the other things. And unfortunately what's happening with John Jones right now, it's more pertinent than going back to, wow, remember that fight against Shogun, remember that fight against Yoda. I'm sure we will get there someday, but right now this was a top of the agenda. Unfortunately. And that is not us doing this. That is John Jones doing that. And sorry, a bit of a negative twist there at the end of the hard time getting out of here pizza. Listen the lads have stayed well overtime remember the shows eleven thirty p.t. two thirty at Chuck will be on that post show we love you all very much from the beautiful Ben folks the beautiful Chuck Mendenhall the beautiful on air Jordan Oscar, Oscar Lozef, from me, Pizzi

Carroll. Have a wonderful Fight Week, we love you very much.