The Ariel Helwani Show - Usyk vs. Fury 2 post-fight show: What's left for Usyk? Do we finally see Fury vs. AJ?

Episode Date: December 22, 2024

The Boys in the back react to Oleksandr Usyk's win over Tyson Fury in their highly anticipated rematch.Uncrowned's Keith Idec joins The Boys to talk about the judges scores (03:17), Fury's strategy and reaction in the aftermath (04:48), and who Usyk could fight next (06:23).Next, Keith discusses whether it's finally time for Fury to face Anthony Joshua (08:32), where Usyk ranks all-time (10:16), whether AI judging can take hold (14:25), and if Moses Itauma could be the future face of British boxing (16:43).Finally, the Boys take a look at the official scorecards (21:17) before signing off.

And here we are for the uncrowned post fight show. We just finished watching Tyson Fury versus Oleksandr Usyk. Oleksandr Usyk, again victorious. Now 2-0 against Tyson Fury. I mean, is there much more you can say about this man, Oleksandr Usyk? No, the words escape me to

like, talk about how great he is in the scope of boxing history, but also just right now. Like, right now, it does not seem like he has an equal in this sport.

The resume, Olympic gold medalist, undefeated as a professional, 23-0 now. Undisputed at cruiserweight. Undisputed cruiserweight. Undisputed at heavyweight. With wins over the best of this generation. Multiple wins.

Multiple. Daniel Dubois. Anthony Joshua times two. Times two. Tyson Fury times two. It truly is astounding what this man has put together. It's a weird position, and I'll say it this way. I don't think there's anything left for him to accomplish.

Like, there is not... In my mind, there's nobody out there that I'm like, okay, I need to see it. Now, would I accept some fights? I'd take a Parker fight. I'd take another Dubois fight. That one, the below-the-belt stuff has marred it a little bit. People have cried controversy, Daniel Dubois

being number one in that. And he just did as he got into the ring. And just said there was some Fugazi stuff going on there. I would accept those fights gladly because I'd love to watch Usyk box again. I'd love to watch those guys square off. But do I need to? Is there anybody out there that I'm like if this guy doesn't do it, it hasn't

been completed, I can't say yes. He's done everything. He has mastered it in a way that nobody has. It truly is unbelievable, the resume this guy has. I'm just baffled by it. But we just saw him say in the post-fight interview with our very own Adeola Depot, our close friend of the program, Adeola Depot, asked him, what's more? What's left? What more can you do in this sport? And he was just like, I'm not done. I have more. I have more. That's left? What more can you do in this sport? And he was just like, I'm not done. I have more.

I have more. That's what he said. He also said something very interesting to me, which was, instead of, like, Dubois comes in there and he's trying to get a moment with him. He's trying to mug him. I'll say the promo needs a little bit of work. Now, granted, that's not Dubois' strong suit. So we're not going to ding him for that. But the response from Usyk was very interesting because the response was looking to Turkey and saying, make it worth my while. I believe his exact words roughly were, Turkey, make me fight. Make me fight him. Which means to me, show me that money. You pay me, and I will fight him. Daniel Dubois still has to get through Joseph Parker.

That's the thing. They're doing this face-off. He's got work to do. It is not a fit-or-complete. Against a flaming hot heavyweight in Joseph Parker as well. He's got business to take care of before he's in there. Now, granted, don't get me wrong. Try and have your moment.

Try and squeeze yourself in there. No problem. I think that's great promotion. I think it's fantastic. But do not take your eye off the ball. Do not take your eye off the opponent that is in front of you because that is a task that writer for Uncrowned. Keith, all three judges score it, 116-112. What are your thoughts immediately after we saw that fight take place? Hey, guys, I thought they got it exactly right. I scored it in real time, 116-112 myself. I thought Usyk clearly won eight rounds of the fight.

There were times, obviously, Fury tried to impose his will on Usyk, and Usyk just wasn't having it, frankly. And I think he fought a masterful fight, and he let Fury know that although he was heavier and obviously taller, he wasn't necessarily the bigger puncher, and he was not going to in any way steamroll him the way that he did Deontay Wilder in their second fight, which I think was part of Tyson Fury's plan and coming in so heavy. And also, the mindset that he had was that he sparred much more for this second fight than he sparred for

their first fight, because the first fight, he was limited in sparring because of the cut, and he didn't want to suffer another cut in sparring. So he felt a little ill- for this fight or for that fight, I should say. For this fight, he was completely prepared. No excuses. He looked a little disappointed when the decision was announced, but he clearly lost the fight. He told me last week during a one-on-one interview that he doesn't believe in robbery. So I hope he doesn't say that this was because it certainly was not. Yeah. I felt the same way as you, I said all week coming into it, that I thought it felt, it gave me the, the second Wilder fight vibes, right? The serious nature I'm coming into heard them. The jokey kind of fury seemed to have been left behind and we saw it in

the fight, a similar game plan. I felt the same as you. It seemed like he was trying to sit down on his punches more, land the harder shots, be defensively sound. And it seemed like he had a lot more success in that in the early rounds. But then the late rounds, it seemed like Usyk started to pull away. Did you feel like that was the right strategy from the Fury side? Do you feel like maybe he came in too heavy? Again, we don't know. Maybe he had some weights in his pants on the scale. But do you feel like he came in too heavy? Do you feel like he came in with the wrong game plan no i think they did the right thing because i think that's the only way he could win he's not

going to outbox alexander usic no one in the heavyweight division is going to do that so i think that was his only reasonable path to victory he tried it it didn't work usic took his jab away from him as well His jab was effective in the first couple of rounds and he went away from it because Usyk did some things to counteract it. So Usyk's just better. That's it. We don't need to see a third fight, obviously. He's better. He's better than Daniel Dubois. I understand they're trying to obviously sell that rematch because there was some controversy in the fifth round of that fight, but he's beaten Daniel Dubois. He's beaten, obviously, Anthony Joshua twice, now Tyson Fury twice. Hard to say what's really there for him.

I know they're trying to play up this Daniel Dubois fight, but I heard you guys talking before I came on the show. He's got some serious business ahead of him, too, so I wouldn't overlook that. Yeah, I mean, we saw Daniel Dubois obviously stepping in the ring, getting to his face, says he wants to right the wrong that was done with the below the belt shot, everything like that. You mentioned it, the Joseph Parker fight. Do you think winner of that gets Usyk? Because he's saying now that I'm not done, but we're kind of like you. We're sort of just like, what's left for this man? Is there anything left for him?

Yeah, yes, I's that's the only thing if dubois wins that fight yes and well you know parker has never fought usic so obviously if parker wins the fight you know he would obviously have earned that opportunity and good for parker because he's really rebuilt his career as you guys know coming from where he came from getting just absolutely starched by joe joyce and having lost having lost to Joshua you know he had some losses on his record so uh good for him for for figuring it out somehow and coming back as effectively as he has because I didn't expect him to beat Jaleh Jung um and he did that pretty convincingly so uh yeah so that's certainly something to look toward but I get Dubois's

point because I do think and i've told other people this and some people have agreed to disagree but i do think that who said sold that low blow i think he got hit with a borderline body shot that could have gone either way some people think it was low some people think it wasn't i think he oversold it because he's had difficulty dealing with body punches in the past and gave himself just the amount of time that he needed to come back and get back into the fight. On the flip side, I would say that Daniel Dubois allowed Usyk to get back in the fight. And not only that, he sort of quit again. And it wasn't the first time. So I don't know what he's complaining about exactly. He quit. He, the bottom line is he's quit in two fights. Good for him for resurrecting his career and coming

back and knocking out Anthony Joshua, but he tapped out in two fights guys. So he hasn't been wronged in any way either. Yeah. So, you know, it seems like we're all on the same page that we don't feel like Usyk has anything to prove, but, but naturally it would feel like the winner of, of that fight is going to be next for him. What about Tyson Fury? Now undefeated to this point, drops two to Alexander Usyk. What's next for Fury? Or what do you suppose is going to happen for Tyson Fury next? Well, Tyson obviously has made an enormous amount of money in these last two fights, upwards of $120 million. Never has to fight again. He didn't have to fight before he fought these two fights. He's made so much money over the past six or seven years. That being said,

Fury against Anthony Joshua will always sell in the UK. They've been on a quote-unquote collision course for a long time. They've been derailed from that collision course here and several other times. But I do think that that fight will happen before they both retire because they sort of need each other at this point. No one wants to see either of them fight Usyk again. And then what is really left for the both of them other than to fight each other? Because that's the fight British boxing fans have been clamoring for for a long time. They've never gotten it. And the bottom line is, despite that they're coming off of losses, and of course, Joshua's loss was much more devastating than Fury's, that fight will sell out Wembley Stadium in a moment's notice. So that's always there for them if they want to go make a lot of money. That would be an idiotic fight to bring to Riyadh because of what the type of business that it could do in London. So hopefully that's not something that they consider doing. But if both of them are going to continue with their careers, and we don't know

what Tyson Fury is going to do, because guys, you well know he's contemplated retirement long before now. So if he can get up the motivation to go beat Joshua, because he wants that on his resume and as part of his legacy before he actually retires, I think that's the fight we'll see because it makes the most sense. It will make the most money and they need each other at this point. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And if you're ever going to do it now is the time. And we've been circling this forever and ever and ever. And it feels like we finally have the cleanest window. Where does this put Usyk in terms of the pantheon of all time greats? Let's start with maybe heavyweight, but just boxers overall, the resume is sterling. Where does this place him for you? Those historical arguments are always

tough for me, guys, because the eras were so different. There were so many things that were different about the sport then. The cross-generational stuff is tricky business, I think. I'm not going to sit here and say that Oleksandr Usyk was better than Muhammad Ali or Joe Lewis, because I don't believe that, but he's a great fighter. You could certainly argue that he's the best pound for pound. I have long said that Terrence Crawford sits atop my pound for pound list, and I'm not going to change that based on the fact that he moved up to 154 pounds. He didn't look like the best Terrence Crawford I've ever seen, but he convincingly beat a 54 pounder who can punch.

In my opinion, Usyk already beat Tyson Fury. So I don't think it changes my pound for pound list because he beat him again necessarily. But to answer your question, he's a great fighter. He's obviously a two division undisputed champion. He's a small great fighter. He's obviously a two-division undisputed champion. He's a small heavyweight. He's fended off bigger, stronger guys multiple times. He's obviously a source of inspiration for his country, which is still immersed in a war. He means a lot to his countrymen and all of that. So in terms of all-time greats, I mean, it's such a subjective

thing, guys. I don't, frankly, I know people enjoy doing it, but it's kind of like a lot of like nonsense to me, to be honest with you, because I don't know. I mean, we get it. I know, I know why people ask, but I'm just like, well, what? It's so subjective. And then you can sit there and talk about it until the cows come home. But well, who's right and who's right. It's, it's almost pointless to me, but he is, he is a legitimate, uh, all time top 10 heavyweight at this point. There's no two, two ways about that. But I mean, who's to say that he would have beaten Jack Johnson or he would have beat, I don't know. I just don't, you know, Let's go to the flip side of it. Tyson Fury, his last three fights, obviously a controversial decision against Francis Ngannou, who came from

MMA. Now we have back-to-back losses to Oleksandr Usyk, the first two of his career. What has this, these last 15 months done for Tyson Fury's legacy? Yeah. You know, if he would have gotten stopped by Usyk in the first fight in the ninth round, which you could certainly make an argument, he should have been stopped in that ninth round because he was getting knocked all over the ring toward the end of it. I think this would have been a little more damaging to his legacy, but he really, you know, the Klitschko fight was stunningly boring even nine years later, thinking about it. But he did go to Germany and beat Klitschko, which stunningly boring even nine years later thinking about it. But he did go to Germany and beat Klitschko, which he wasn't supposed to do.

I believe he was a four or five to one underdog. And he went into Klitschko's backyard because obviously Klitschko had fought in Germany mostly. So that's a huge win. What he did against Deontay Wilder, most people think he won the first fight. You know, steamrolled him in the second fight. Got off the deck twice in the third fight and knocked him cold. He's done a lot of amazing things here. And he just happened to not be able to beat a generational great.

And I don't think there's any shame in that. Those are the only two official losses on his record. So also, you could certainly argue that he's a back end of the top 10, 15, if you want to call it 15 heavyweights of all time. Tyson Fury's had a remarkable run. And especially, guys, based on what he's been through in his personal life, you know, people were, there was a time when people were concerned that he was going to kill himself. So the fact that he was able to turn his life around the way that he did and go and provide for his sixers, I've lost count of how many children he has, six, seven, something like that, and go live a productive life and be a credit to the sport in many ways, because he certainly sells it better than anyone else does. It's a pretty incredible story on his end as well. I saw you monitoring or on top of the AI judges all week. At the very end of the fight, they on top of the AI judges all week, uh, at the very end of the fight, they showed us that the AI judge scored at one 18 to one 12. I think there were two 10,

10 rounds as well. And he gave Usyk rounds six through 11, I believe. Uh, do you think that could possibly be a viable option in the future? No. Uh, and here's why you're not, they tell judges in seminars, they instruct judges in seminars throughout the world to not score even rounds. Do you know why they can't tell an AEI judge not to score an even round? I don't know. You can't tell someone to do something that is not programmed. Look, I understand they're trying to get cute with the technology and everything. In my opinion, guys, scoring boxing is a subjective science. It is a subjective science. And in my opinion, it's always going to lend itself to controversy. Thankfully for a change in this sport, they got it right tonight. And I think that's something we should emphasize as well, because we're always, especially me, I've made a career out of pointing out the ridiculousness of this sport.

And they sure make it easy sometimes. But when they get it right, they deserve credit. And there was a lot of cause for concern over the last few days that I and others wrote about and pointed out. But the three judges tonight, Gerardo Martinez, Ignacio Robles, and Patrick Morley got it right. That was the score that I had, not necessarily that my score is always right, but they got it right. He won at least eight rounds. He walked away a winner.

People were concerned about Tyson Fury winning a decision that he didn't deserve because of a lot of the things that were happening in Riyadh over the last couple of days, including Turk El-Sheikh openly rooting for Tyson Fury, saying he wanted him to win. That doesn't necessarily anything nefarious was going on either, but it's all about perception trumping reality. As I wrote the other day, it's good, maybe a Christmas present to us all in some sense that finally something positive happened in boxing where people can come away from it feeling that maybe you can restore your faith in the sport in some ways. Now it can't get out of its own way oftentimes. So I'm sure we'll be right back to that soon enough.

But today for a few hours, at least the sport got it right. Yeah. And so speaking of getting it right, blistering performance in the co-main event by Moses Itama, what, what was your, uh, uh, take on the fight and what could be next for him who seems like a future champion? No doubt. Yeah. Good luck trying to match this kid, right? Wow. Uh, he's a monster, man. He's only 19 years old and uh he might be the he sure looks like the next big thing from the uk there so um dempsey mckean's a little chinny uh he was there for a very specific purpose and he served it but uh itama is a beast and it's going to be fun to watch his ascension in the heavyweight division i think they'll be ambitious about matching him because they should

but i think they're going to have some difficulty getting guys to accept the fights, except when Turk Al-Sheikh is willing to overpay, which he's been, you know, they have the financial wherewithal to do that. So I think in some cases they will. You're going to have to get him in the ring with former champions to get him to move up to the rankings and everything. But then the champion, and I wouldn't suspect it's going to, Usyk is not going to be around by the time he's ready to fight for a title. I think he'll have retired by then. So the landscape will be wide open for a fighter like him. But at this point with Tyson Fury losing back-to-back fights to Usyk, Anthony Joshua getting starched by Daniel Dubois, he comes around at the perfect time for British boxing

because in Great Britain, you know, people that I know that cover the sport there and do business there are a little concerned because they don't feel, despite Daniel Dubois' big win over Joshua, they don't feel that they have someone capable of carrying the heavyweight torch, which is extremely important. And I think maybe they do have one now. Another English heavyweight that fought tonight, Johnny Fisher, going back to the judging conversation, controversial scorecards from at least a fan standpoint. What did you make of that split decision win for Johnny Fisher? Questionable. It definitely could have gone either way. It definitely could have been a loss for him. I don't think people will remember that much because it happened so early in the day um they're going to point to what happened in the main event the judge is getting it right for a change but you know like i was saying earlier guys we the sport can't get out of its way oftentimes but like tyson fury told me last week we had a very long uh a very interesting interview i thought

because he told me some things that most fighters don't say and he told me that he doesn't believe in robberies anymore he don't you know he doesn't think that um he realizes how difficult of a job judges have particularly being positioned on in different spots around the ring and everything and what you can and can't see when a fighter's back is turned to you particularly a fighter who's six foot nine 281 pounds you know it's hard to see around him sometimes and you might miss things that you can see on television or on a stream that the judges don't have access to so i i try to be mindful of that and criticizing judges sometimes because it's not an easy job particularly in real time. But it's a big boy job.

So of course you've got to get it right. But yeah, clearly to answer your, for the short answer to your question is, I guess it could have gone either way for sure. That's the way I looked at it. Thank you for joining us, Keith. You can read Keith's work at uncrowned.com and elsewhere. The best in the business.

Thank you so much. My pleasure, guys. Have a great Christmas. Thanks, Keith. You too, man. All right. How about that? Great bow on the whole fight card from Keith Heideck.

Yeah, he had the scorecards that the judges submitted. I mean, it's all over the place, but completely understandable. Yeah. I mean, I guess I had it 115-113 for this. You're one round different. Yeah, yeah, yeah. One round different. Shout out, man. You know what? I want to see the113 for this. You're one round different. Yeah, yeah, yeah. One round different. Shout out, man.

I want to see the actual scorecards and see if they had every round. Frank Warren was holding a copy of those in the ring. Any chance anyone tweeted that out? The one thing I want to tag on the end of that interview is, like, I'm usually the guy who's like, I don't want to have these conversations about GOAT and pound for pound, and here I am asking him, and you know what? I get a taste of my own medicine when he comes back and is like,

these are stupid. We shouldn't have them. And you know what? Keith's right. Keith is absolutely right. Those fighting words. But the thing that he did acknowledge is like top 10 heavyweight, you know, all-time great.

Like the resume speaks. Like he's absolutely incredible, Izzy Usyk. All right. So like I have the scorecard here. Let me see if I can send this over to producer Jordan real quick here and we can get this up on the screen. That'll be the last thing. Yeah. I would love to be able to show you do, but it's how this fight was scored. They are different. They are different. I think this is the exact one that, uh, old Frankie Warren had, um,, Patrick Morley scored the last,

jeez, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, and 12. All for Usyk. Yeah, yeah, yeah, man. He scored all of them. He had Fury going into round six, man. You can see it right here. Going into round six, he had it 49-46 Fury, and then he has Usyk winning all the last ones. Robles,

kind of similar. He only gave Fury the ninth. And then, yeah, and then Martinez, similar. He only gave the 12th to Fury. The story of the fight, clearly based on these cards and what we were seeing, after the sixth round, or after the fifth round, rather, Usyk just took over. Yeah, man, so six, seven, eight, ten, and eleven were all unanimous across all three for Usyk. And I mean, I erased mine, but we had it similar. Yeah, so like Usyk, Usyk. See, I gave nine and eight to Fury. I gave nine to Usyk. I gave that one round to Fury. But at the same time, it was clear what was happening. Yeah.

From the midpoint of that fight onward, Usyk was the one who was pressing. Usyk was the one who was in control. Keith Eideck pointed this out brilliantly. The jab for Fury stopped at some point. The jab for Fury stopped at some point. Usyk had taken that away from him, had hit him too many times. The hands started to lower and Usyk just, as he does,

if you're not going to be able to take him out early, you are in for hell late. That is just how that goes. He is going to be pressing on the gas and you're in trouble. And you're in trouble. One interesting thing is just how differently they all got to the 116-112. And, I mean, Robles gave round two.

Actually, Martinez and Morley gave round two to Usyk, which I thought was, like, one of the clearer Fury rounds. Yeah, it's tough, and I think if you're Fury, you're going to feel some type of way about that. Yeah. But as Keith said, he interviewed Fury, and Fury said there are no robberies, so we're going to say no robberies.

Excitement, okay, early. Excitement level for a potential Usyk versus the winner of Parker and Dubois. I like, I love Joseph Parker, but I like the idea of Usyk versus Dubois just because there's the heat and the history there and the robbery. It shouldn't have been a low blow or anything like that. Yeah, 1-10. Plus, if he wins, that makes it for Undisputed. That's got me at a 9.

9? Wow. And also, on the line to double up on all the great English heavyweights of this generation. You're higher than me? I'm open to it. Again, I'm not closing off, but it just doesn't do it for me i'm so i really you know what parker is more interesting to me just because he hasn't fought the the career resurgence and not having fought him at least it's a new name you can just add a body yeah i mean at the end of the day man i think i'm just starting to get excited for alexander usic fights like yeah well Yeah, well, that's... I just really appreciate that he's playing. That's fair. He's simply unbelievable. You're a 9. Maybe I'm like a 6, 7.

Yeah. Tyson Fury. Ooh. Anthony Joshua in Wembley Stadium. I was just about to say, where is this fight taking place?

In Wembley. In Wembley? Yeah. 12. Presented by Riyadh Season in Wembley Stadium. Sure, sure. Whatever you want to do.

Sold out 12. 15, 30. Like, this is the time. We've done this so long. We've done this so long we've done this so long god knows i've talked about the the eubank and ben fight do this for british boxing this will be a mega event this will be massive now keith made a great point like it seems like that is the old guard of the of the british boxing scene they we need some new names but what a one to go kind of out on right like whoever wins that fight great move on

have some fights maybe you become a stepping stone for a younger generation but to to actually have that fight finally materialize i think would be massive for british boxing do fury joshua wimbley atama coming okay i was gonna ask okay number three excitement level for moses atama's next fight yeah like a 10 man yeah i thought this going to be a step up in competition for him, dude. Over six and a half, my ass. Ridiculous, man. Took him 80 seconds to put dude out. However long it was, Moses Atama's unbelievable performance.

Feeling about the whole card altogether? Yeah, it was all right. It was all right. I mean, it was... This was a main event, but then Moses kind of had that moment. And Sergei in the third fight down um in a in a title eliminator uh yeah it was a it was it was a decent card i'm really excited for that february 22nd i'm really excited for that one that one's absolutely stacked to a to a way that this

one wasn't for me it all hinged on the main event like moses at the time but that was a great fight great performance by him great knockout can't wait to see what he does with his career. I needed this main event to deliver and it gave me everything I wanted. I got to see the change in game plan and Tyson Fury trying to stop Usyk early, being unsuccessful, Usyk taking over late. Two of the best.

Two of the best of this generation. Two of the best ever. It delivered for me and that's all I wanted. So I'm pretty happy on the back end of this one all right well that it will do it for us from the uncrowned post fight show thank you for watching uh thank you for tuning in happy holidays I hope you can spend happy holidays family get a break from work thank you so much for watching we couldn't do this without you we really appreciate it Oleksandr Usyk you you're not undisputed, but the best

heavyweight in the world and is holding four belts. You won't see us sitting here until the new year, but what you will see is some programming on the Uncrowned YouTube channel. This Monday, we've got a predictions show for 2025. 2025

MMA preview show coming to the channel for you on friday this coming friday you've got pt carol doing a recap of the year in european mma carol joined by guests the following monday got a nice little classic show with ariel hawani watching some classic clips you'll really enjoy that tune in for that one and then that next friday after that you've got pt carol looking ahead to the year coming in european mma so we've got you we've got you every monday every friday until we come back and then when we come back you're right here for the award show january 6th award show award show that we know and love i want to look back is great it is like old school interviews that he did and then he reacts and kind of tells the behind the scenes

of it all that'll be out on uh the 30th monday the 30th the real the real ogs are gonna really enjoy that one so uh it's a it's a look back it is a look back for sure you're not seeing us live but we got some content for you for you guys frank what do you say man happy holidays damn right best holidays ever happy holidays New Year. Hope everybody's happy, healthy, well. Thank you for watching. See you in 2025.