The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast - Baby Loss Awareness: Why It Matters & How to Support Parents | Dr Kara Davey

Starting point is 00:00:00 Before we dive in, a quick heads up. If you're a qualified psychologist in private practice, then Dr Claire Plumley and I would love to invite you to our next in-person event. It's the psychologist Christmas Social, happening in Kingscross London on Saturday, the 6th of December 2025. It's your chance to connect with other brilliant minds, enjoy some festive food and feel part of a real community, especially if you're missing that work Christmas due feeling. Faces are limited and feeling fast, so if you or a colleague might be interested, you can find the link to grab your ticket in the show notes or in my bio on social media or just send me a DM. Dr Claire and I will look forward to seeing you there.

Starting point is 00:00:52 Baby loss is one of the most painful and silenced experiences a parent can face. If you've If you've clicked on this video, you're in the right place. In this episode, I'm joined by Dr. Kara Davy to talk about what baby loss really feels like. The grief, the silence and the moments that shape life forever. Together, we'll explore how parents can be supported and how compassion matters more than anything. I'm Dr. Marianne, a qualified clinical psychologist, and I want this space to bring understanding and hope.

Starting point is 00:01:23 And later in this conversation, we are going to be revealing what bereaved parents tell us they needed most but often didn't get. So stick around right to the end and if you find it useful please like, subscribe, comment and share. Hi, welcome along to the aspiring psychologist podcast. I am joined today by my guest Dr. Kara Davy who is a clinical psychologist. Hi Kara. Hi Marianne. Thanks for inviting me. I'm happy to see you. Nice to see you again so you have been a guest of the show before. We spoke about ADHD assessment didn't we? That's right we did. And today I just want to give a little bit of a trigger warning.

Starting point is 00:02:00 Obviously, we're going to be talking about baby and child loss. So if you are watching or listening to this and there's, maybe it's not the right time or if you've got younger or sensitive ears around you, please just be mindful of that, considering whether you need to listen now, whether you'll come back to it, whether you'll pop some AirPods or earphones in, so that just you, here's the content at this time.

Starting point is 00:02:24 Okay, this is a tricky area, Kara, It's an area you were already working in the area of trauma before you experienced your own very sad stillbirth of your daughter. But since then, you've really made it a clinical specialty because you realize that actually there's a bit of a lack of support for people that find themselves in this position. Well done for everything that you do and for creating such a compassionate, safe place for people. Can I ask what might feel like a controversial opener? Why does baby loss awareness matter? It matters because after someone loses a baby, it's one of the most difficult experiences they

Starting point is 00:03:08 might ever have. And we, as society, as friends, as families, as colleagues, as, you know, someone near them can't undo that. We can't take away that, but what we can do is support them, and we can help them to feel understood. and validated and be with them and feel less isolated at such a difficult time in their life. And I think because it is such a sensitive topic on one that feels a bit taboo and one that we perhaps don't want other people

Starting point is 00:03:37 to hear about or we're very careful how we say, it means that sometimes people can experience not only the loss and all the implications of the loss, but they can feel a lot of isolation after their loss. They can feel like actually people, you know, I hear frequently, people say, you know, people cross the road to not talk to me because they feel a bit awkward because they're worried about saying the wrong things or, you know, employers have advised

Starting point is 00:04:02 people, you know, the team not to get in contact after someone's had a loss and then they feel like, these are colleagues have known for a really long time who aren't even checking I'm okay at, you know, such a difficult time. So I think if we don't raise awareness of the topic and the impact and how to best support it, then actually what happens is people end up more and more isolated and that compounds their distress. So it's really, really important to empower people to be able to understand and support. And I think my experiences of having lost my dad is that I think some of my colleagues at the time were said, were told and I'm almost like, don't, don't worry Marian, don't contact her about anything. But I think as a team member, it's okay to kind of say,

Starting point is 00:04:44 well, how long for, have they specifically asked not to be contacted ever, not to have this mentioned, or actually, you know, is there a time where actually it's okay to support that person? So maybe it's like it's like you're trying not to rock the boat and you're trying to honour people's wishes. But the person who's had this happen, I'm sure you would say as an expert and as a mother, you didn't mean forever, you know? Yeah, absolutely. And I think there's a difference between continually messaging someone or messaging someone about work-related issues when they might be on, say, bereavement leave, for example. And it will depend when someone's losses as to whether they're entitled to leave.

Starting point is 00:05:27 Yeah, there's a real difference between that and sending a text saying, you know, I've noticed you're not in work or I've heard about your loss. I'm so sorry. You know, there's no need to reply. I just wanted to let you know I'm thinking of you. No, I don't think anyone who's been bereaved, whether that's of a child or not, would take offence to a message that says, I'm thinking of you with no pressure to respond.

Starting point is 00:05:49 That is such a good point. And actually what the managers maybe mean is please don't contact Kara about the spreadsheet. Please don't chase her for why she hasn't submitted X, Y, Z, her time sheet, her mileage. They don't mean don't support her. Don't be a human. But maybe some of the messaging maybe could do with firming up a little bit. Or just be a good person. If you would usually text them to say, I'm watching something on TV. Are you watching it? If you've got that kind of friendship, then, you know, I think it's absolutely okay, like you say, to say, I am so sorry to hear what you're going through, what you've been through. I'm here, if and when you're ready. Absolutely. And that's so, so important. You know, it makes a huge difference. And, you know,

Starting point is 00:06:35 and I think you raise a really important point there about if you would normally text someone, don't change that behaviour, because I hear that so often where people will say, you know, friends are trying to be sensitive, they're meeting up without me. because they don't want it to be triggering for me or whatever else so they're excluded or you know general conversation that might have about TV they're like oh maybe I won't mention that program in case there's you know something difficult or they don't want to hear about that now or rather than actually checking out with someone you know how are you doing I was thinking about this or you know we're arranging

Starting point is 00:07:07 this meetup it could be triggering I understand that thought would you like to come because we'd love to see you if it doesn't feel too much or so there's something really really important about being held in mind, you know, for all of us at all times, and it's no different with baby loss, and yet because it feels such a taboo and sensitive subject, actually that is something that, you know, happens a lot, is that people feel isolated and left alone. Yeah, okay, so almost try not to police or censor your original impulse or original thought, you know, oh, I'm going so-and-so-carra would love to come, oh, no, I can't invite Kara because of because of that like maybe reach out to carra anyway you know yeah absolutely unless you know

Starting point is 00:07:52 unless that person has specifically said you know i want to come out of this friend's WhatsApp group for example because i'm finding it i'm finding it triggering or you know if they choose to come out of that group then of course honor honor that you know don't go oh let's add them back in just because they might like this conversation or um but yeah i think there's something really important about remaining human and remaining in contact and letting someone know you think of them unless they are specifically saying, I need a bit of space at this point. So as an example, I had a really close friend who a year after my loss, which, you know, the kind of anniversary is typically very difficult for people after a loss. And a year after she was due with another

Starting point is 00:08:32 baby, same gender as a baby, I'd lost. It was quite triggering. It was quite difficult. And she kept reaching out to me. And I said to her, can you just give me a week? Like this week where you've just given birth and is the anniversary. I just need a little bit of space because I'm finding this really difficult. And it was almost like that was quite triggering. I think for her and she'd keep reaching out to me. Please just honour it. Like as a friend, I promise I will be back in contact with you. This isn't forever. I just need a little bit of space. So I think if there's a very specific example, I think, you know, listen to that because it's hard. But yeah, other times, you know, And I was back in contact and it was, you know, okay again afterwards.

Starting point is 00:09:11 But yeah, I think if there's a real clear example where someone's telling you, it's important to listen. But otherwise, people do want to be held in mind. They do want to, yeah, be included, even if it's difficult or at least have the opportunity to say, you know, whether or not they want to be there and want to be thought of and included. Yeah, thank you. I think that's really helpful. And to actually know that if you are struggling as a loss parent yourself, that it's

Starting point is 00:09:38 okay to advocate. It's okay to say actually what you think would be helpful for you right now, whether that's more, less contact, or something completely different, you know? Yeah, and I think a lot of brave parents find this quite difficult. I think I don't want to make too many assumptions, kind of gender assumptions, but a lot of women I support who've lost a baby will say that they are naturally quite people pleasing. They find it quite hard to speak up to advocate for themselves. And I think what can be really difficult after a loss is not only are you trying to manage the loss, but because people don't understand, you know, often people don't understand how to respond or are worried about doing the wrong thing, it means that brief parents

Starting point is 00:10:21 often get better support and care if they feel able to advocate for themselves, if they're able to say, actually, this is really helpful for me, or actually I find that quite triggering, or the more someone is able to kind of articulate how they feel and what they need, often the better they are supported by others. But actually, that relies on a good ability to know your emotions, to be able to communicate them, and, you know, to have people around who listen to those emotions. And actually, that's hard. And so, yeah, many women are like, actually, this isn't a time where I feel strong enough to advocate for myself. And yet without advocating, often the things that are triggering or continuing to be triggering with other people not having an opportunity to be able to change

Starting point is 00:11:02 that behaviour because they don't know or you know if people are not including a baby's name in a Christmas card for example i often say if you're on social media and many people will come off because it's triggering maybe just share a post that says i'd love to have baby's name included in the card because it lets people know what what it is but it then relies on that person and they're often like why am i doing this when i'm when i'm grieving and i've you know experienced a loss which is understandable and yeah it's a hard time to be advocating yeah yeah and I learned from you in that regard actually so you know you are my friend and we grieved together and grief is kind of nice to have a companion in I think I

Starting point is 00:11:43 don't know how I'd have got through that time without you say thank you as a friend and also as a you know someone that's empathic and trained to to kind of support me but also be my friend basically and you know you told me at about names and cards and so yeah people I know that have grieved I still try to if and when I do send birthday cards or Christmas cards I still try to mention their name and actually people have come back to me and say you're the only person that does that and I actually really like that so it's like it's like just passing on those those gems of wisdom so anyone listening or watching maybe you could be someone that you know people look forward to receiving correspondence from

Starting point is 00:12:24 because it makes them feel validated and seen and like their suffering isn't, you know, being just completely gossed over and overlooked. Yeah, that's really important. And firstly, just to say, absolutely, the importance of having someone there and, you know, the fact that we grieved together, you know, it was obviously sad for both of us

Starting point is 00:12:47 that we were experiencing loss, but you were so supportive and meant so much to me at that time. And I think that's part of my passion. for supporting people is I was lucky enough to have you and a few others who really got it and really saw me and really supported me. And it made such a difference to my journey and my ability to cope. It's why I'm so passionate that if other people haven't got that, like actually I don't know how I would have cope without that. And I really want other people

Starting point is 00:13:15 to be able to have that, you know, that experience. So yeah, I'll be forever grateful and I think that, you know, has had a real, real influence. So yeah. And then in terms of the cards, yeah. I mean, it's not just, I see you, and I acknowledge that this might be a difficult time for you, but especially in the example, you know, when someone has lost a baby or a child, you know, that child is not living their life anymore. And, you know, it's a way of acknowledging that you were important. You existed and, you know, you're, you're continuing to be thought of in the world, which is really, really important because many people don't do that for fear of upsetting someone when brief parents don't forget their children anyway but yeah it's really important and

Starting point is 00:13:59 you know from a psychological perspective there's something called continuing bonds and i think often people think you get over grief and you kind of forget about someone and move on or that was the more kind of traditional old school way of thinking of brief and we know that's not the case now and for people who cope and manage better often it's because they've found ways of holding that person in their life with them and that might be for brief parents you know it might be they have a teddy bear that represents their child. It might be they have things with their child's name on, and might have things on the side,

Starting point is 00:14:30 or but seeing a child's name in a card means a lot. It's one of the things you can do that says, you know, I remember, I remember you and you're important. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that my experience is of having been a clinician and doing, I'm probably going to say hundreds, maybe thousands of assessments, is that when we're screening someone's mental health

Starting point is 00:14:54 and kind of thinking about the onset of problems, sometimes I've been in the very privileged position where I've been told about miscarriages or late miscarriages, stillborn babies. And it might be 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years later. And of course, with the changing landscape of maternity services and of the way that we kind of deal with grief and loss now and the way we talk about that in society,

Starting point is 00:15:25 I think it's really important to hold on to the idea that people might have had a different experience. They might have never seen their baby. They might have not had any photos. They might have almost been, you know, had things tidied up and cleaned up and taken away to save you that pain. But my experience was that that just kind of stays

Starting point is 00:15:46 as this kind of gaping wound that nobody's looking at and nobody's validating. And so we heal in stages, of course we do. But if you've never had help to have that heal, then this could still be quite raw, despite it being years and years later. And even with the way we talk in the media now and seeing the lighting of the candle

Starting point is 00:16:08 at special memorial days and things, that might really evoke things for people. For the first time, it might feel safe to do that and to process all that. And so it might feel, at times very, very close, to the service but people can kind of invalidate that a bit sometimes I think can't they yeah absolutely so I'm a trustee for a baby loss a Sussex based charity baby loss charity called oscar's wish foundation I've done lots of events with

Starting point is 00:16:35 them and I did lots of fundraising after my loss and often at fundraising events you might find especially if they're more public events you might find someone comes along who maybe had a loss 50 years ago or and they see the sign they see the support and often, you know, you can see how raw and difficult it is, or they will stop and, you know, kind of take their time to say, I just wish, I just wish that this understanding and this support and this way of being able to be encouraged to be with your baby as part of the grief process, you know, was around and was understood, you know, back back then. And so absolutely, you're right. The pain doesn't go away, you know, just because someone doesn't meet their baby or,

Starting point is 00:17:20 you know is is encouraged to kind of move on or not think about it it's very much still there and still raw so you know if you're as we've said earlier if you're if you're kind of worried about mentioning someone's baby because you might upset them like it's it's not a case of it goes away it's still it's still there and with them at all points and you're not going to upset them you're going to give them an opportunity to think about and express how they feel and rather than kind of just holding that in yeah absolutely And I guess I was just kind of thinking about the fact that because of the kind of long-term nature of podcasts and kind of YouTube content is that people might be coming to this at all stages, and it might be someone's very recent in their loss. Can we just go over some very basic kind of what-to-dos, like if you have lost a baby or a child and then you're sort of home?

Starting point is 00:18:17 Like, what do you do practically? How do you begin to think about arranging funerals if kind of baby was at a stage where that needs to happen? Like, how do you do these practical things? How do you arrange time off with work if this is all planned and not as expected? Could you guide us through that a little bit, Cara? Yeah, I think it's worth acknowledging. In a way, this is a really hard question to answer because it will depend on. a lot on the circumstance of the loss, so how early the loss was in terms of how entitled

Starting point is 00:18:53 someone is to leave, whether or not they're having a service, whether they choose to have a funeral for their baby, whether they have a bereavement midwife, so some, and what service that bereavement midwife offers. So a lot of hospitals that have a bereavement midwife. Some will arrange funerals for people and will kind of really help with that side of things, others it's left for, it's left for them to do, or people choose to do. So the circumstance advances vary quite a lot. I do have, on my website, there's a series of free resources for people. There's one about supporting colleagues or supporting friends or family members. There is one for people who are recently bereaved about these kind of first steps, like thinking about maybe you've

Starting point is 00:19:35 just found out and you haven't even given birth yet, like how on earth do you approach this next step? It's very unusual for anybody to have a C-section to give birth to a baby when they found out that they've passed because there's no medical kind of need for that and so generally people have to go through the process of giving birth so there is tips on there things that might kind of help with that there's things that help with practicalities how to cope with that loss so there's lots of different things in there depending on the stage and how involved people want to be and the circumstances some people might have lost a baby after birth and yeah again the circumstances really do change. So there is a guide on there that approaches lots of those things. But if you have a more

Starting point is 00:20:18 specific question, I'm happy to answer it. But I feel like there's lots of different answers for lots of different circumstances that makes that really difficult to give a straight answer. Thank you. And that's a really helpful, a really helpful answer. So, and I think I was really imagining, actually, the additional trauma. So I've had two cesarean sections for, you know, two babies, two emergency sections, but I was imagining the experience of having birthed naturally and maybe any kind of perineal wounds or kind of just very uncomfortable kind of, you know, downstairs areas and the contractions themselves can leave your belly very, very tender for days and weeks afterwards. And I sort of was really thinking about the experience of

Starting point is 00:21:09 of someone who's recently given birth, but then has to care for their body but has no baby to care for that's living, that's with them at home. And I think it's really hard, isn't it? Really hard. Yeah, absolutely. And for a lot of people, their body is triggering. Lots of people feel like their body has let them down and they can feel quite triggered by the sight of their own body. It takes time, obviously, for swelling or to recover postnatally. People can be mislellanated. People can be mistaken as they're walking around are still pregnant when they're kind of trying to recover because people assume without a baby that they must still be pregnant. So yeah, there's a lot around. And again, in that free guide, there is information about trying to cope and care for your

Starting point is 00:21:54 body because there can be, brief parents can find it hard to care for their body and can kind of almost be inclined to want to neglect it because they feel that it's let them down or because they feel angry or um i did do a blog with someone called mutu which is a mootu system is like a trying to recover postnatally about for me it was really important to try and take care of my body and to that i knew it would help my emotional well-being to physically take care of myself and to prepare my body and to not feel kind of impacted in terms of pelvic health long term by it so for me i kind of did that but there is a blog about that and there is more information your relationship with your body and how to take care of it.

Starting point is 00:22:41 And I think even, you know, when I had my loss, I contacted the GP for the kind of six week check and they kind of checked down my notes and they went, well, I can see that baby didn't survive, therefore there's no need for a six week check. And I was like, well, is anyone gonna, I've given birth, like do I need to be checked to see how I am physically or so I think there's even

Starting point is 00:23:03 that kind of dismissal often by other people of like you know this expectation to just get on with things it's so you still need to heal you still need to take care of yourself and people don't expect you just to kind of rest often in the same way that you would if you were a new parent with a with a baby here live so i think it's really important to think about that yeah the relationship to the body and the assumptions that maybe other people might make or you know kind of things people wouldn't think about that are really important as a very parent and that's one of the reasons I created the free guide and I've put it in hospitals for people to look at in

Starting point is 00:23:40 hospital and it includes also things like memory making like what how are you how to make memories with your baby how to create some of those things that a lot of people will say they leave hospital and I wish I wish I'd done you know a cast with my baby I wish I'd done fingerprints for a necklace or so some of those things around how can you make those memories or if people want photos so I think sometimes we don't think about these things. So it's really important that people are kind of given information around what might be helpful to know in these early stages that will help longer term recovery, even if they feel hard in the short term. Yeah, absolutely. I am pleased that this is an area that's got more support

Starting point is 00:24:25 around it now. And I think even knowing that term bereavement midwife, you know, if for some reason you haven't been given one and it's kind of quite recent that you've lost a baby or that you've had to give birth to a baby, just knowing that term can kind of empower you to know what to ask for or if people are listening to this because they are actually mental health professionals. You know, we hear all sorts, don't we, in our work? It kind of just empowers us to think, oh, actually, I wonder if I could share this information with this person either for their own benefit or for someone that they're telling me about so that we are really doing that consultation model of sharing what we know

Starting point is 00:25:06 to the people that need to know it. Yeah, and if you're a mental health professional working in perinatal services who don't specialize, so in some services, in some areas perinatal teams also support with loss. In some areas, there's a separate team, and some areas, sadly, it hasn't been rolled out at all yet. But if you're a perinatal team who does less of the loss work, because that isn't kind of within your remit I think it's important when you're thinking about supporting people's mental health who've had previous losses and might be pregnant again that kind of pregnancy after loss stage to bear in

Starting point is 00:25:42 mind the things that might be triggering for people the thoughts and feelings that might be there the practical steps that might be helpful you know the places you might be able to refer them in thinking about welcoming that you know, another baby after loss and all the things it's brought up for them. But, you know, practical things like birth planning, you know, kind of it's all very different after a loss. And I think sometimes I speak with brief parents who feel that it can be missed by services, like the real impact of the loss when they're thinking about the next pregnancy. It's almost like it's let's just think about this pregnancy without bearing in mind that

Starting point is 00:26:20 previous context. So I do think it's important, yeah, as mental health professionals. for us to bear in mind that the impacts of that earlier loss too. Yeah, and, you know, I think one of my favourite books of all time is The Body Holds the Score by Bessel van der Kalk and, yeah, like just even trying to get yourself, your body into birthing positions might be incredibly, incredibly triggering or emotive. Some people find that it helps them to feel closer to baby that they've lost, but maybe you feel all the things, maybe there's some element of comfort, but also lots and lots of distress and kind of lots of feelings about hopes for the new baby and worries about kind of

Starting point is 00:26:59 about their health like it's all the things isn't it yeah absolutely it's it's a real mixture so there is a term for pregnancy after loss of a rainbow baby and some people like that term and some very parents really don't and I think some people the reason they don't like the term is because they see it as people kind of dismissing the past they're almost like oh here's the sunshine after the rain as if your bereaved baby is the kind of rain and the bad thing almost and this is good but it dismisses the experiences but for me when I think of rainbow I think of the two existing together so there has been sadness and upset you know kind of as part of the loss of your baby but you know your bereaved baby is not just the rain but likewise that next

Starting point is 00:27:47 step of trying again if someone is in that stage they it's not that they don't feel any good emotions not like they're not looking forward to being a parent or they're not excited about that stage but alongside that they are also experiencing all of the difficult emotions so the rainbow is the kind of two existing together and i think if we're if we're thinking about the most important thing you can do to support someone as a you know who's bereaved as being empathic and supportive and ensuring they feel seen acknowledging both of those emotions is so important you know i run free support groups for people who've lost a baby and also for people for people in that next step of kind of trying again or pregnancy again after loss and the most

Starting point is 00:28:28 common topic I would say in that group is around just people being wholeheartedly excited for them after a loss but without any acknowledgement of actually all the other emotions that they're suddenly now feeling guilty that they're not thinking about their other baby as much or what that means about their first baby or they're also feeling that you know their body is physically from a trauma point of view back in the time before you know it's back pregnant which is the state it was when they had their loss and they're now terrified or you know all of the other emotions that exist alongside it that not being seen is so difficult and so many people in the kind of pregnancy after loss groups will say i just need to people to acknowledge that you know congratulations

Starting point is 00:29:15 and i imagine this is a really tough time are you okay or you know just just that simple both and rather than kind of assuming one replaces the other makes such a difference. Yeah, so I guess because this is a psychology podcast, we're thinking about these things not being mutually exclusive and by that I mean we haven't just got two train tracks that never meet. We've got actually I'm really excited and delighted about giving birth to this baby who is with us and alive and healthy. I'm also still really sad about this one who didn't have the same outcomes and it's okay to check in with both of those things because of course what we know is that they converge and they can both exist it's not either or yeah absolutely and for a lot of people

Starting point is 00:29:59 there's a real sadness as well of the impacts that their loss has had on them as a person from a trauma perspective in you know kind of yeah just how they feel but also feel that it's robbed them of actually this pregnancy is no longer, you know, exciting in the same way. Like suddenly now I'm triggered by things. Actually, the support I would have had at pregnancy yoga or whatever actually now feels quite difficult. Also, for a lot of people, you know, there's sadness not just around my baby's not here and will never get to live this life. You know, I may be welcoming another baby, but, you know, there's also sadness around the interaction. I won't get to see the sibling interaction but there's also a kind of this experience is completely different to my

Starting point is 00:30:46 last pregnancy in terms of i'm now you know feeling so many difficult emotions alongside the sad alongside you know kind of joy and excitement or gratitude so yeah absolutely yeah it's it's lots of that innocence i think for me is that i just didn't know how awful this could be and i was way more fun before 2017 kara i think we can both agree Like I just, I don't know, it's just, I was just different, you know. Yeah, it takes, it means life just becomes more serious. And, you know, everything feels a bit heavier and a bit more like, you know, there's just a lot of extra.

Starting point is 00:31:28 Just to say, you're still very fun, by the way. But yes, there is a, you know, it does shift and change people. And absolutely, people talk a lot about having to reconstruct who they are. and, you know, that loss of innocence is absolutely huge. I remember, you know, I felt, feel I coped fairly well in my pregnancy after loss despite it being difficult, but I will never quite forget the shock

Starting point is 00:31:52 of walking into a pregnancy yoga class that I'd done, you know, in my previous birth and my baby I'd lost and with the previous baby I was lucky to have here, you know, kind of safe. But I walked in, and the innocence of people in the check-in at the beginning were like, oh, I can't wait to be pushing my baby in a pram. And, you know, like all of the kind of naive, I've never, never even a thought that anything could go wrong, would go wrong, or, you know, just a pure excitement and joy and a state that I just couldn't quite connect with anymore, but remembering that I had. And it just really triggered me. And I think it was one of the most triggering points of my pregnancy. And I left the room and was like, well, I was not expecting that. Like it hit me like a ton of bricks. And it was that innocence that I was just like, oh, I do remember having that innocence. It was like a clear kind of view of how I had been versus how I was now and what a brick wall there was

Starting point is 00:32:49 between them and how I could never almost go back to that. Yeah, I think there's a really powerful song by Kat Stevens that was covered by Boyzone as well actually. And it's father and son and it's, you know, the lyrics are something like, you're still young, it's not your fault. And whilst this isn't about age, we're not talking about the age of an expectant mother, it's almost like you just don't know what it is that you don't know. And that's not your fault, but I just will need to just hold in mind the fact that I know that it's not all sunshine and rainbows and not everyone has this experience. But yeah, it's not invalidating yourself for having those ragey thoughts and feelings. Like you know stuff that they don't know and you've been

Starting point is 00:33:33 through experiences that maybe they haven't, they haven't been through. Yeah. And I don't, I mean, some people do feel rage about it and as you know there is a normality in that so there's absolutely no judgment i don't think i felt rage i just felt an utter sadness of you know kind of yeah just the kind of this is the this is the impact and this is how i can never quite go back really like the analogy of kinsu of the you know the japanese art of putting something back together so if you imagine a kind of vase on the side it gets knocked over it's smashed you're never going to be able to put those pieces back together and it looks like a vase that has never been smashed. And yet you can put the pieces together and spend time putting gold between it, putting glitter on it, making it look good but in a different way.

Starting point is 00:34:25 And, you know, and I think that's the process lots of brief parents will talk about after their loss is they have to put themselves and their kind of personality and their experiences back together. and there's often a period of kind of resistance of I want to be the person I was like I'm upset that I might now be triggered by these things or I might feel angry or upset or and lots of people trying to be who they were and I think often you know we have to get to a point or it's really helpful if we can get to a point of actually maybe I'm not the same as I was but there's ways in which I'm probably actually more empathic more supportive and you know kind of there's positive things that have come from being able to cope with this. loss rather than the loss itself and then there's other ways in which those cracks might always be there and it's really important to be able to shift to that perspective but to acknowledge that the cracks still exist because that's where people feeling validated if we don't acknowledge that yeah and i think that even crops up in between kind of relationships doesn't it so not all people are expecting a baby with a partner but often that is that is the norms still that people are. And even our different views within a relationship can be further wounds

Starting point is 00:35:44 in this kind of broken pot. And sometimes people are able to work through those. Sometimes it feels hard to work through that trauma and that becomes a relationship trauma and ultimately decisions about long-term futures. This is a big deal. It affects all aspects of life, doesn't it, Cara? Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's something. thing, you know, when we're talking about raising awareness of baby loss, I think that's the thing here is that we're not just talking about, and it's big in itself, losing the baby, losing all the hopes and dreams in the future, but it is a fundamental shift in every aspect of people's lives. You know, people move jobs, they move houses, they, you know, people, some people really

Starting point is 00:36:27 have to move, whether that's for different services because they're triggered in their home, It's every aspect of life, their personality, as you say, relationships, you know, for lots of people, these are real relational traumas, you know, when you're experiencing something so difficult, you know, often you look to the people close to you to support you and to help you. And, you know, in the experience of having lost a baby, both partners are grieving. And can they be there and support each other in that grief? Or do they actually need very different things? You know, we often see one partner might really want to talk. about it all the time and need to kind of try and, you know, kind of really process how they're feeling all of the time. And that might feel really difficult for the other partner and they need to avoid and not talk about it and not think about it. And then you can get the relational trauma of I told them I couldn't talk about it and they keep talking about it or, you know, vice versa. I told them I really need to talk and they weren't there for me. And further down the line when people have survived and coped in whatever way they need to, they look back at the relationship

Starting point is 00:37:27 and go, but I really needed you and you weren't there. Or, you know, so for something, people it is a real you know kind of turning point in their relationship and yeah it really does impact every area of life in a way that I think sometimes we can we can miss as professionals if if we haven't had the experiences ourselves or or know someone who have or you know had the relevant training absolutely and that's why this podcast is just gold isn't it I think because we can't know what we don't know but we can we can do our best to be curious and to learn carra we did mentioned rainbows. We did mention rainbow babies. Could you tell us about your book that's got rainbow baby in the title, please? Yeah, so I wrote a book called, there's a rainbow baby in my

Starting point is 00:38:09 mummy's tummy. And I guess that was my experiences. As I mentioned, I'm unfortunate to have had a child before. My loss is here safely, and he was three at the time of a loss. And when I fell pregnant again after my loss I spent lots of time talking to him about I had to pick the right time to tell him I guess it's a whole other another another topic but essentially the book is my experiences of what I found helpful in preparing him for another baby coming because often when children have experienced loss they can be quite black and white like why would you try again when the last baby died or they can make quite kind of difficult kind of comments and I think many bereaved parents if they have another child here worry about how to talk to them how to

Starting point is 00:39:00 support them when to tell them when they're pregnant again what to tell them about it you know how to speak to them about it and they when bereaved parents are pregnant again and they're feeling so nervous about will my baby arrive here safely this time it can feel really hard to reassure a child of what's been done differently this time. and how, you know, how there's lots of things in place to try and minimize that. And parents are like, well, do I guarantee it because I've got no guarantees or do I tell them how nervous I am? So the book is all about helping brief parents to be able to support children in pregnancy after loss. And also there's a kind of Q&A at the back of just how do we

Starting point is 00:39:40 have some of these difficult conversations and what to share and whatnot to share to support children in that journey. But it's actually a book to read to your child, isn't it? But there's useful stuff at the back for the parent themselves as well. Yeah. So it's a children's, yeah, you're right. It's a children's book. It's illustrated for children. It talks them through the journey. What we know for children is that often they will find it easier if it is somebody else's experiences that are similar than, you know, about themselves. So, you know, if you were doing EMDR therapy with a child, you would talk about, you know, you'd write a story for them of the event that happened about another little boy or girl that it happened to,

Starting point is 00:40:19 or so this is a chance for them to read about somebody else in a similar situation that might kind of validate how they might feel, but it also might help them to understand and then it helps the parents to have, you know, to answer any questions that might come up as a result of that. Yeah, absolutely. And just before we finish, could you tell us about your free baby loss support groups, which I just, you've done them for so many years and I just want to say, well done and thank you because I know they're an incredibly valuable resource, but Tell us about them, Kara. Thank you.

Starting point is 00:40:52 Yeah, so the support group started in COVID five years ago now. And that's because the baby loss charity that I'm a trustee for, they offer counselling support and they were all furloughed during the pandemic. So I started running support groups for them just to support bereaved parents or people who were pregnant again because it was such a difficult time and it was so hard to kind of get support. And then one-to-one clients that had at the time were like, oh, can I join it?

Starting point is 00:41:21 It would be really helpful to kind of connect. So now they're open to anybody, regardless of where you are. They are monthly groups. They run on Zoom so that you can, you know, attend wherever. And they are an hour each month, the first Sunday of each month. And it's a space to be with other people who understand who get it. And yeah, it's a safe space for. people who don't have that safe space or for people who would benefit for more, you know,

Starting point is 00:41:51 more support. So yeah, they run every month. There are a number of different free resources available on my website. If you go onto there, but if you scroll down on the page, you can see and you can join, just type in your email address and you will get monthly reminders just with the Zoom links so that you can kind of attend the groups and obviously you can unsubscribe at any point should you not want to. But yeah, it's just a way of connecting people. really nice some of the clients I've spoken to years down the line and say I'm still in contact with so-and-so who I met on the group or you know it's really nice that people become a support outside of the group as well so amazing and whilst you

Starting point is 00:42:31 often specialise in in person stuff in Sussex these groups are open to anybody aren't they yeah absolutely we are open to anyone and there's you know within the practice we also offer so I support people personally I have many other psychologists in the practice who also support people who specialize in this, you know, type of support. And again, we do do remote support as well. It's for anyone who wants to be supported by someone who really gets it and understands the area. And I don't want geography to be a limiting factor on that. Amazing. Well done. And if people want to follow you on Instagram or somewhere like that, what's the best handle for them to look for? So the handle is always in my heart.

Starting point is 00:43:13 Perfect. Thank you so much for your time, Kara. and I will see you soon. Take care. Thank you. Thank you so much to my guest and to my friend, Dr. Kara Davy. It's always an absolute pleasure to speak with her, and I hope you found this content to be helpful. You might well be watching because you, yourself, are experiencing a loss or have experienced a loss,

Starting point is 00:43:38 or you might be your friend, family member, or even working with someone in a mental health capacity or physical health capacity who is, experiencing this or has experienced this. I would love to know whether you have found this content helpful. Please do drop a comment, a like that can be done on Spotify or on YouTube. And if you'd like to learn more about Kara, her story and what happened to her and her little girl, you can do in my book The Grief Collective Stories of Life, Loss and Learning to Heal. She is from page 190. And there's lots of real

Starting point is 00:44:16 life reflections of people who have grieved for a variety of reason. I hope that you are being supported, you're being validated, and you're supporting and validating yourself too. Such important things to do. Please do look after yourself. If you're looking to become a psychologist, then let this be your guide. With this podcast, that's your side. You'll be your side. Your way to being qualified It's the aspiring psychologist podcast With Dr. Marianne Trent My name's Yana

Starting point is 00:45:07 and I'm a trainee psychological well-being practitioner I read the clinical psychologist collective book I found it really interesting about all the different stories and how people got to become a clinical psychologist. It just amazed me how many different routes there are to get there and there's no perfect way to become one. And this kind of filled me of confidence that no, I'm not doing it wrong and put less pressure on myself. So if you're feeling a bit uneasy about becoming a clinical psychologist. I'd definitely recommend this just to put yourself at ease and everything will be okay. But trust me, you will not put the book down once you start.

The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast - Baby Loss Awareness: Why It Matters & How to Support Parents | Dr Kara Davey

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