The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast - Changing Courses, Trauma, EMDR and non-executive roles in Psychology with Dr Rachel Lee

Episode Date: September 18, 2023

Show Notes for The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast Episode: Trauma, EMDR and non-executive roles in Psychology with Dr Rachel LeeThank you for listening to the Aspiring Psychologist Podcast. Sometimes you will start a degree and just get the sense that it’s not for you. So what can you do and how can you change courses? In today’s episode we explore this. We also chat about trauma and how EMDR can help to treat it. It can be hard to understand how leadership roles work in mental health so we go over this too. I am joined by Dr Rachel Lee, Clinical Psychologist and Associate Non-Executive director and we discuss all of this and more! We hope you find it so useful.I’d of course love any feedback you might have, and I’d love to know what your offers are and to be connected with you on socials so I can help you to celebrate your wins! The Highlights:(00:00): Summary(01:10): Intro(02:00): Educational Psychology Timeline (03:32): Hi to Dr Rachel(04:08): Changing degrees(06:05): Is changing easy?(08:54): Feeling overwhelmed is a sign!(10:27): What will people say about a gap year?(11:18): Rachel’s journey to DClinPsy(12:50): No feedback on applications is hard(15:00): Contextual admissions (18:36): The beauty of loving your job (23:16): Clients getting better(24:39): Trauma and EMDR(27:19): What is EMDR anyway?(34:40): Being ‘bad enough’ for EMDR(38:47):What is an non-executive director role?(45:00): The flexibility of our career (46:26): Rachel’s tips for reducing burnout (48:55): Connecting with Dr Rachel and her recent research on photographs in therapy(52:34): Thanks to Rachel and Summary and CloseLinks:🔗 Dr Rachel Lee's Website: https://www.northstarpsychology.co.uk/dr-rachel-lee Connect with Dr Rachel Lee on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-rachel-lee-0900b9211/ Follow Dr Rachel Lee on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/northstarpsychology/🫶 To support me by donating to help cover my costs for the free resources I provide click here: https://the-aspiring-psychologist.captivate.fm/support📚 To check out The Clinical Psychologist Collective Book: https://amzn.to/3jOplx0 📖 To check out The Aspiring Psychologist Collective Book: https://amzn.to/3CP2N97 💡 To check out or join the aspiring psychologist membership for just £30 per month head to: https://www.goodthinkingpsychology.co.uk/membership-interested✍️ Get your Supervision Shaping Tool now: https://www.goodthinkingpsychology.co.uk/supervision📱Connect socially with Marianne and check out ways to work with her, including the Aspiring Psychologist Book, Clinical Psychologist book and The Aspiring Psychologist Membership on her Link tree: https://linktr.ee/drmariannetrent💬 To join my free Facebook group...

Hi there, it's Marianne here. Before we dive into today's episode, I want to quickly let you know about something exciting that's happening right now. If you've ever wondered how to create income that works for you, rather than constantly trading your time for money, then you'll love the Race to Recurring Revenue Challenge with my business mentor, Lisa Johnson. This challenge is designed to help you build sustainable income streams. And whether you're an aspiring psychologist, a mental health professional, or in a completely different field,

the principles can work for you. There are also wonderful prizes to be won directly by Lisa herself. And if you join the challenge by my link, you can be in with a chance of winning a one-to-one hours coaching with me, Dr. Marianne Trent. Do you want to know more? Of course you do. Head to my link tree, Dr. Marianne Trent, or check out my social media channels, or send me a quick DM and I'll get you all the details. Right, let's get on with today's episode. Coming up on today's episode of the Aspiring Psychologist podcast, I am joined by a

qualified clinical psychologist, Dr. Rachel Lee, and we are discussing changing degrees. We are talking about trauma and EMDR, treatment for trauma. And we are also thinking about what the heck executive and non-executive roles are, which you might well hear banded about either in business or in psychology. Hope you find it so useful. Do stay tuned right to the end to hear Dr. Rachel's top tips for reducing burnout. If you're looking to become a psychologist Then let this be your guide With this podcast at your side You'll be on your way to being qualified It's the Aspiring Psychologist Podcast

With Dr. Marianne Trent. I'm a qualified clinical psychologist. So we are now underway with the application season for clinical psychology via the Clearinghouse. I also know that by the time you listen to this episode that the applications for training as an educational psychologist will have opened. So they're due to open on Wednesday the 13th of September at midday. The deadline for references to be submitted needs to be Tuesday, the 14th of November at 5pm. And the application season closes for educational psychology trainee wannabes on Wednesday, the 15th of November at 5pm. So it's a slightly shorter application season than for clinical psychology. But I am aware that's fast coming up.

So, yeah, do get those dates in your diary if that's something that seems like it's going to be important to you in the near future. And that has just made me realize that I might well see if we can get somebody from the AEP to come and talk to us on the podcast. So I might well slip a little message into their inbox shortly so that we can learn a bit more about training as an educational psychologist. So today I am joined by a guest and we're talking about so many brilliant things. It's a qualified clinical psychologist and I so enjoyed our chat. It's going to be a slightly longer episode. It's about 50 minutes long. Don't forget, if you'd welcome any more advice

or support during this time of your career, come and check out the Aspiring Psychologist community. And don't forget, there's the Asp the aspiring psychologist membership available too I will look forward to catching up with you on the other side I hope you find this episode so useful energizing and helpful I want to welcome our guest along today Dr Rachel Lee who's a clinical psychologist associate non-executive director we'll hear a bit more about what that is later. And also is the owner of North Star Psychology, which is a specialist trauma provision. Is that right, Rachel? I've got that right.

Thank you, Marianne. It's great to be here. Brilliant. Thank you, Rachel. So one of the reasons I wanted to invite you on the podcast is because you'd actually started one particular course at your undergraduate degree and then after a year you'd then change to psychology and I think that's such an interesting conversation to have because sometimes people can feel you can get that kind of sunk cost fallacy that you think I better keep on doing what I'm doing because what will people say or you know what will it look like could you tell us a little bit about what you were doing, how and how you reached those decisions, if that's OK, Rachel?

Absolutely. So I started at university doing engineering. It was a general engineering course and I was planning to specialise in chemical engineering in the fourth year. And this had been a goal of mine for probably at that point about eight to nine years you know I'd always wanted to be an engineer I'm somebody who's really loves being outside and I like doing things and I like being active and from quite an early age I decided that I wanted to go into engineering I've always really liked the sciences so you know I had to speak to the headmistress to choose the right so because I wanted to choose certain subjects and drop other subjects in order to pursue this career in engineering

and then I got to university and I did enjoy doing the engineering but I found that it wasn't quite what I was sort of looking for I think at, at that time. And I think what happens, you know, in those late years of adolescence is obviously our brain's still changing, isn't it? And we're changing and we meet new people. And I had a few friends who were doing psychology and it just sounded really interesting. You know, became quite fascinated by why people do what they do, why people behave in certain ways. And at the same time, I think I was finding that engineering was just a bit too rigid for me. I was looking for something that was maybe a bit more flexible, where I could have an opinion on things rather than just sort of solving really very difficult equations. So yes, I sort of completed the first year and then moved across

to experimental psychology. I never looked back, really. It's something that I'm really passionate about. Yeah, I just find psychology fascinating. So perhaps I'm a bit of a nerd in that way, that even if I go for a run, I'll tend to listen to a psychology podcast, you know, having ideas. And yeah, it's just been a really fascinating and interesting career. Lovely. Thank you. And you made it sound quite effortlessly there. You made it sound that you just went from engineering to psychology. And I guess some people might be listening to this thinking, oh, yeah, I am doing a degree that I've just, I just don't feel like it's for me. What is the best way to go about if you want to change courses Rachel

yeah so it's um it's interesting to think back on it Marianne because um you know obviously it's that it's quite a while ago but I think what it was was it was a slow a slow um recognition that this wasn't really making me happy anymore maybe suppose now I think a lot about people's values when I see my clients I'm really focused on their values what sort of person they want to be what sort of life they want to have and I suppose that wasn't really sort of fitting with my values and perhaps my values had changed while I was at university so I think it was a process of finding out about the course that I did want to do so thinking about the different options so first of all it was this

engineering isn't really what I want to do anymore and then looking at those different options speaking to people who were doing the course speaking to the tutors finding out what was possible was it even possible to change I was quite lucky because the engineering course was four years possible to change I was quite lucky because um the engineering course was four years and the psychology course was three years so in terms of I mean back in in our time we we were funded weren't we to do to do our university courses it was um different to now where you pay tuition fees but so so those fees had already been agreed for the four years. So it was quite simple in terms of the sort of finances of it. And, yeah, just sort of had some conversations.

I think if I remember, perhaps I had to have to write an essay. I think there was a little bit of an assessment process to check that I could move across to that course. But, you know, I'm going back quite a few years now. Lovely I think I was actually the second or third cohort of having to pay tuition fees but but it was I think three thousand a year rather than the current sort of up to nine thousand a year so but I actually changed courses as well but I changed courses within the first couple of weeks so I was doing forensic science but they'd sort of let me on with the proviso that I might find the chemistry tricky because I hadn't done

chemistry A level and then I started and for what I thought was going to be all forensic science was actually one hour a week of forensic science and the rest was chemistry and I just was completely swamped and was used to finding things relatively easy and then suddenly found myself at the bottom of the stack and I just thought I can't do this this is completely overwhelming it's not for me I don't even know why I've picked this course um and sort of then went back to psychology but my experiences of changing was that the university because like they sit they see you as a human hopefully but they also see you as money and once you're already there as a student they want to retain you as a student and so they will want to try and work with you to keep you as

a student and so that they can keep you know one day have you as an alumni as well and so I guess to anyone listening to this thinking what will people say or will the university be awful to me and tell me off and say you should have picked better and you know it's not like that and actually I found that I then had two sets of friends throughout my cohort because I also had my own forensic science I call it science friends that I'd met for a couple of weeks and then you know it was really nice it kind of enriched and added to my experience rather than detracted from it. Yeah it was a little bit similar for me because if you like in moving to psychology I went into

the year below the year that I'd started off in so I'd got friends who were in my original year and then new friends in the in the year below that year and and also Marianne also found the university to be really supportive because I think they want they want their students to be happy don't they they want them to do courses that they will succeed in and so they were yeah they were very supportive in terms of that move. Yeah and actually as I reflect upon that now one of my very closest friends on my cohort there was four of us that were studying psychology that were thick as thieves she had originally done sociology the year before and had decided to change so she had exactly what you had she had her her older peers who were her own age

and then she had actually everyone all of my friends were a year older than me they'd all taken either a gap year or change courses but yeah so she had that experience of kind of still doing some of the the year two stuff whilst we were doing year one stuff and it worked really well and then we we had more friends to play with you know it was it was quite good it was quite good so how did you what happened next so once you graduated let's skip a little bit of your education did you already know you wanted to be a clinical psychologist at that stage um I think I was certainly really interested in mental health. That was sort of my favourite module that we'd done on the course at university. But I actually left and I moved back to Leeds and I had a job as a research assistant in a rheumatology and rehabilitation research unit.

So it's doing quite mathematical mathematical research sort of looking at outcome measures and how we analyze data and things which perhaps sounds quite dull but it was a fantastic job because it had so much travel involved so I was part of a European study and we went to Australia and I went to Chicago and I went to Copenhagen and different places like that so that was really interesting and then then I think it was in doing that that I started to think actually I really do want to be a clinical psychologist and I applied for a research job down at the Institute of Psychiatry at King's College in London and that was working in the eating disorders research unit so I moved down there and that was really with a view to then sort of applying for clinical

psychology courses. And then you ended up getting on in London is that right? Yeah yeah so the first year I wasn't successful and had a bit of a dilemma as to whether to continue or not and then I was successful in the second year and I was really pleased to get on the course. Brilliant and you know I think sometimes it's not uncommon for people to have that sort of soul searching you know is this for me you know I've been told no perhaps they know something about me that I don't know. Perhaps this isn't the career for me. And I think in the days that you were applying, certainly even when I was applying, you'd get like a little paper form of feedback about why you were not being shortlisted for interview. And I kind of wish they'd do that more now because it just being told no when

you've spent months on a form you know that's really hard you know because actually in terms of knowing where to start next year I was told I needed to have more varied clinical experience um so initially more varied clinical experience more more relevant experience and another box. And the next year I applied, I think it just said more varied clinical experience. So then I thought, right, well, I'm going to get a job in a different clinical population then. And so I did. I ended up working in a child and adolescent secure unit. But these days, it just can feel like I don't know why I've been turned down. and so I don't know what to do that's different and that's really hard because you need constructive feedback don't we and I

remember that Marianne from um the year when I wasn't successful that actually at that point I don't know if it's changed but at that point they didn't offer any feedback whatsoever um in terms of not getting on and it was really difficult to to know where you need to sort of make some changes and adjustments. And I think for me, in terms of the soul searching about whether I wanted to do it, it wasn't necessarily that I felt that maybe I wasn't the right person for it. It was more that actually, I think it was about sort of, they've been, let's see, they've been about 20, 26. And I was living in a shared house with other people who've sort of had jobs in the city, you know, on this sort of clear trajectory and doing very well, I suppose, financially.

And I was looking at sort of going on to a three-year course that was going to, you know, obviously take some time before I was going to have a full-time job. And, you know, it was just, it was more sort of starting to plan that out and to think about how does this fit with other things that I might want to do in my life. But like I said, I'm really pleased that I stuck with it. And it's been the best decision I've ever made. I couldn't be happier with the career that I've chosen. So yeah, it's worth sort of continuing, isn't it? You have to sort of just dig in and keep going and sort of hold on to your values, to what's important to you so that you can keep going through those sort of ups and downs. But I do agree with you.

So just coming back to that point, I do agree with you that it'd be really helpful to give people feedback. And for me, it doesn't quite fit with us. So it doesn't quite fit with us being psychologists because, you know, we know that for people to, you know, to learn, we need to, we need some feedback, don't we we we need some feedback from our environment from the people around us if we want to change then we need to sort of have some information about what's not working you know what why haven't I got on the course this time like you're saying

oh perhaps I need some more clinical experience or perhaps need some more research experience or maybe it's the way that I'd describe things in my form and just really helpful to get a little bit of feedback. Yeah absolutely I agree and actually I realize I've just remembered that another point in the first application I did was that academic skills need strengthening so at that point I started a master's you know so you can immediately take action to make it different next year but it feels like everybody's just having a shot in the dark like I don't know why I wasn't shortlisted I don't know what to change but yeah it's whether we can think about trying to drip feed anything in systemically so I had a conversation recently with somebody as part of the membership that's

done a lot of the stuff for contextual admissions, which has come about over the last few years, which is thinking about whether someone has been in the care population at any point and whether they had free school meals, those sort of things, so that we're really looking at the demographics. And so the way it was explained to me was that, you may know this already, Rachel, but the way it was explained to me was that if they're trying to decide between offering somebody a an interview or a place and they score the same then the person with the highest contextual admission score will then be offered that to to kind of try to make it as as fair and equitable as possible so that's my understanding of how those um that information is used so in case people are feeling like I don't really want to fill in that information is used so in case people are feeling like I don't really want to fill in that information it can be useful for you to be as honest as you feel comfortable to be so I've certainly found that very interesting. I think it's it's really interesting incredibly valuable

isn't it because no just because people with those contextual factors have had many more hurdles to overcome. And, you know, it's great to see that being taken into account. And we need to widen, don't we? We need to widen, broaden the types of people who are working in psychology. You know, we need people from different backgrounds and with different life experiences and lived experiences to help us sort of grow the profession and be able to work with people in different ways, reflecting the diversity of our service users. Yeah, I absolutely agree. And, you know, I was reflecting on what you were saying about you loving your job and loving your career.

And, yeah, I absolutely feel the same way myself. And, you know, when you meet somebody that's even considering a psychology career, like it, I just I feel like they're just lit up in a different way. And, you know, if we can get more and more people feeling that way about their profession, about their work, about the work they do. So we're speaking, as I'm sort of fresh back from Galway, I got back from Galway doing a keynote speech for the Irish Psychological Society over the weekend. And I was standing on that stage just thinking, gosh, you know, this is amazing. I am here talking to all these aspiring psychologists because I did a psychology degree and you know that I couldn't be here doing this job and

connecting with people as I was on the stage but also all the clients we work with and we work in quite similar areas so I work in trauma as well but it's the biggest privilege you know helping someone bearing witness to some of the most difficult times of their lives real raw pain and helping them through that and then out the other side to be able to have a different experience of life I just it's never lost on me it's never not humbling it's it's an incredible an incredible role that we do and it's all because we did psychology at uni yeah absolutely marianne um i had the most incredible week last week and a couple of clients that i've been working with for a while was sort of um came to the end of their therapy and you know the life changes just absolutely incredible um one of my clients in particular

who I've been seeing online is really interested I wish I'd sort of had you know um to compare how how sort of how how she presented at the start of therapy and how she presented at the end you know we sort of reflected on this just this senseness, you know, the joy that was coming out of her. So she just looked so radiant. You know, this was the end of therapy. She looked radiant. She'd made some big decisions about her job. She was made, she got some big plans for the next year. You know, at the start of therapy, she was really struggling with these really very distressing experiences that she'd had in her life, some in childhood, a couple in adulthood that were really significant and really had incredible consequences for her. And, you know, to do that work, it's been so painful at times, but she's really she really committed to it. And then to see her sort of beaming in the final couple of sessions and, you know, telling me about all these changes that she's made, it was incredible. So yes,

it feels like the best job in the world, doesn't it? When you're helping somebody really heal and recover from those awful life experiences so that they can thrive and flourish and live the life that they want to live. Because I always think sort of living with trauma symptoms, it's like you're going through life with this really heavy backpack on and sort of a good trauma therapy when it's successful, it's like taking that backpack off, isn't it? And suddenly, you know, life feels lighter. You can see it in people, in how they carry themselves, in how they, the facial expressions, but also in the decisions and choices that they make. So, yes, it's wonderful. I love the work. Absolutely. One client described it to me as if literally, you know, when you can have quite rapid, sudden shifts sometimes with EMDR, like within a session. And a client said to me,

well, I feel like I've been carrying around some really heavy shopping bags for seven years. I've just put them down for the first time. And it's like, gosh, that is so powerful, so powerful. But like you say, you just see the changes in people's faces, the way they hold their facial expressions, you know, even the way that their face might be lined or, you know, furrowed or creased. And they look lighter. They look happier. They're just easier to be around. I think they attract different people to them as well because they're not giving out those keep away messages. And I don't know whether you find this, but with all of the client work that I do, I'll be like, okay, let's drop our shoulders. Let's take a breath. And when my clients start to begin to get better, they're like, do you know what happened? I was in an office with my colleague and I started to realize what they needed so I said all right just drop your shoulders just take a breath just take

a moment and they start to teach the skills that I've taught that to them because they start to notice distress in others now that they're able to notice distress in themselves and I think it's the biggest the biggest gift because it makes you realize you're going to be okay because you've internalized these changes you're going to be all right because it's not you know I think sometimes clients have come to me for treatment because they've like well what I've done with this type of approach before hasn't worked I'm looking for something almost changes me on a cellular level so that I just I'm I've dealt with it I've done and I can move forward and I think certainly with EMDR and the mixture of kind of compassion focused therapy that's what we do you know I'm sort of hoping

with people I hope I never see you again in the nicest possible way, because I hope that you begin to be your own therapist. And obviously, if you need me, I'm here. But, you know, that's my hope for people. And I'm confident it's yours too, Rachel. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that is something that's absolutely fascinating about EMDR, isn't it? It's somehow it reaches the parts that I think other therapies often trauma-focused CBT with, and we'd addressed the trauma symptoms. She wasn't having any flashbacks or nightmares anymore, but she was still struggling to do some of the things she wanted to do. And I'd been, you know, week after week, setting up behavioral experiments with her, trying to help her with this. And we just couldn't get any shift. She was feeling scared as she walked down a road. And then having learned EMDR, you know, came back and said, do you want to try this? Should we just see if there's anything

that's unresolved about that trauma memory? So we did one processing session and everything just shifted after that point. I seem to remember that, yeah, the next session she came back, she'd been able to do the stuff she'd not been able to do you know the stuff I've been trying to chip away at for about six sessions I think and yeah changed her job looked completely different and it was just fascinating so it was my first experience of using EMDR so you can imagine I was really curious and just wanted to use it more and more and now it's the majority of the work that I do and last week I was in London well not last week the week before in London to do the consultants in training training um and yeah just love learning learning about it so um yeah it's it's a really powerful

therapy and I think it can take people a bit by surprise so last week you know client came back and I was I'd sort of said oh how did you feel you know across the week you know we'd done some work on a on a different memory the week before and she said gosh you know it's just been remarkable that memory's been bothering me for 40 years and we've done about 30 minutes of processing on it and she said it's just not bothering me anymore and she'd actually been trying to test it out whether it did still cause a problem so I think it's yeah it's just fascinating and great to see those shifts and feel like you can really help that person's brain to to do the healing it's not been able to do because I think that's the other thing I really love about EMDR is the way that as therapists we sit back and we let the person's brain sort of go down the avenues and the and the routes that

it needs to go to to find that information that's going to help healing I think that's really valuable. It really is and I think when I realized we've sort of fallen into a cardinal psychology sin and we've not explained what emdr is so we should probably because if people listen to this all over the world sometimes and say english might not be their first language as well so i'm imagining them going emd what so emdr if we just explain these eye movement, desensitization, and reprocessing, very catchy name EMDR. And it was developed by a lady called Shapiro, who has since passed away. Could you tell us in a brief sort of nutshell what EMDR is, Rachel? Yeah, sure. So EMDR is a therapy that was developed for people with post-traumatic stress disorder and then since has been expanded to help people with lots of different difficulties.

So we can use it to help people with pain. We can use it to help people with addictions or urges to engage in certain behaviors we can use it with low self-esteem so when people have got negative self-beliefs things like i'm not good enough or we can use it with with all sorts of different difficulties anxiety as well so there's a particular flash forward protocol that can be really helpful when people are sort of um have got a lot of anticipatory anxiety. So it's based, it's a therapy that is, it's a very structured therapy. Although of course we want to use it in a flexible and creative way with our clients. And it has a number of phases. I guess broadly it works on the past, the present and the future. So we're helping people with their past memories, with their current triggers, and we're helping people to plan and prepare and cope with future challenging situations. And it's based on the adaptive information processing model, which in a nutshell says that we all have a capacity to heal.

So just as much as our physical in terms of physical health, we can make a physical recovery. The body knows how to heal a physical wound. So if you cut your arm, you know, unless there's some dirt or some sort of something else in there, your body will heal naturally. So if there is some grit, you know, if you've fallen off your bike, I know you had a fall on your bike, Marianne, and I'm sure we've all sort of had that experience and you get some grit in a cut, then you need to clean it, don't you? You need to remove the grit, clean it, and then the body will heal itself we can also heal from psychological difficulties or from disturbing events that have happened in our life and that are continuing to impact on us in the present so and the way that we do that is by creating the conditions to help that person access the memories of these difficult times whilst also being very mindful that they're in the present,

and then to help the brain to do this processing that it's not been able to do before. So I always think that with EMDR, I always think, you know, the brain is a little bit like a factory, and it turns an experience into a stable long term memory. But when we have very disturbing things happen to us, I think particularly things where we feel, experiences where we feel helpless or powerless or in sort of really intense threat, then that factory shuts down. And instead of the experience being turned into a memory, it's stored in its sort of raw form. And what's fascinating is that when you look at neuroimaging studies, we can actually see

that before and after EMDR, the memory is in a different place. So the neuroimaging studies tell us that the memory is in the limbic system, which is the part of the brain where we do all our complex thinking our reasoning our decision making so essentially i think what happens is in those disturbing experiences we switch into survival mode and that's exactly what we want our brains to tell us to do you know the survival mode is there for a reason to help us to to survive to exist, to get through this difficult situation. So I think it's because we're in that survival mode that that processing isn't happening. Now, of course, sometimes the processing happens after the

experience, but sometimes it doesn't or it doesn't happen in its fully. So what EMDR does is it provides an opportunity for the brain to do the healing that it's not been able to do at the time. And we can use it with, you know, sort of very disturbing memories. So, you know, what you might think of as sort of classic trauma, let's say an accident or an assault, something like that. And we can also use it with experiences that are maybe a bit lower on that sort of disturbance scale but have still had a significant impact on us. So I'm thinking about, you know, experiences maybe being humiliated or bullied or, you know, just having a difficult time at times in our lives that might have led us to form some unhelpful conclusions about ourselves that continue to bother us,

or that might still mean that when we're in certain situations, our emotions get triggered in a way that they, sorry, and we feel the feelings that we felt back at the time. So sometimes, you know, whereas in, I think in PTSD, you know, it's very obvious that that situation is triggering that sort of trauma response. Sometimes what can happen is that people just feel the feelings that they've had earlier in their life. And I think that can be really confusing because, you know, there's no sometimes it might be hard to make that link. But when we look into it, when we're doing our sort of history taking and we're talking to people about their experiences we can often make that link and and i think that can be one of the really powerful things in therapy is to be able to link current experiences to to past experiences

and what's happened in that person's life it's a way of making sense of it isn't it and often i think you know no wonder you feel that way in this situation because actually that's very similar to this thing that happened to you in the past but so where EMDR comes in is we can then go into the past and process any parts of that experience that are sort of carrying that emotional charge and so that sort of can then make things feel really different and I think what's fascinating about EMDR is when you've processed the memory, people will say it just feels so different now. It's like, you know, so normally before EMDR, people are bringing that memory to mind. They can feel it in their bodies. There's an emotional charge. And afterwards, it's like all their other memories of course if it's an upsetting experience

it will still feel like a sad memory but the person's not feeling it sort of in their body and that paves the way for them to be able to respond differently in the present sorry i didn't give you the sort of nutshell answer it's quite hard to um to bring it down it was beautiful thank you so much and actually you've raised a really important point there that actually we don't need to be hierarchical about the trauma it doesn't need to feel like it's bad enough and it was making me think that actually I had EMDR for something which to lots of people might have felt like nothing so when my little boy my second child so anyone with two children will relate to this I wanted to make sure that I

was still taking loads of photos and loads of videos of the second child and I am the second child myself so you know there's probably about two photos of me for the first three years of my life so I thought I'm not going to have that happen so I made sure that I bought a new phone so my little boy was born just after my birthday a few days after my birthday so for my birthday I asked for a brand new iPhone so I could make sure there was plenty of room on there for taking loads of photos and loads of videos of the two of them together of me of him of you know just of his earliest moments because it was a brand new phone I thought it's going to be absolutely fine so I remember sitting on my bed probably a couple of months into his birth and it flashed up that my iCloud memory was full. Did I want to buy some additional storage? And I looked at it and it said it was going to be 79p a month.

And I thought, you know what? It's a brand new phone. It's going to be fine. And really, because I'm on maternity leave, I probably could do with saving some money. So I remember putting it down on my bed and thinking, no, I'm not going to do that. What I couldn't have known was that my phone would then corrupt a short time after that. And I lost basically everything on my phone. And so I'd lost all of those early, early memories. And I found it really, really hard to forgive myself. And it was really distressing me. But it sounds silly. But it made me feel like I was a terrible mother.

And so I had to kind of work through that. And even now, as I talk about that, it makes me feel a bit sad. But I can do it in a way that I've been able to just get on with my life and just think, you know what, you didn't know, you know, the technology let you down. it should have worked it should have been fine it wasn't your fault you don't love your child any less you tried you know it is what it is and and I was able to then get photos from other people that had taken photos of him as well so you know it just makes it lay flat and it helps me assimilate that into your life yeah and I think that's a really great point, Marianne, and, you know, really connected with that experience there as a mom, just so awful. And yeah, so it's a great example of the whole variety of different experiences that we could use EMDR for. And

also you highlighted that it helps you to assimilate the information and that's how I think about EMDR as well that you know if you think about all your different experiences in life as like dots on a page and also all your knowledge and different perspectives and ideas and learnings that you've had in life as dots on a page. And I think what happens with these kind of disturbing memories is that they're not connected to as many dots as would be helpful. And EMDR helps to create some new connections. So, you know, I guess there you would have had that knowledge that you're a good mum and some knowledge that phones sometimes corrupt

and phones that we can't predict everything that's going and some knowledge that we can't predict everything that's going, and some knowledge that we can't predict everything. And then you've got this memory, haven't you, of like, oh, my gosh, you know, I've lost all my photographs. And those things weren't connecting. So I imagine your EMDR helped those connections to be created. Yeah, absolutely. Exactly that. Exactly that. And, you know fine it's all right it's not ideal you know if I could go back and choose to either have not have the phone corrupt or to have the uh you know just to pay 79p a month I would have done that but you know hindsight is 20 20 vision as they say so let's just have a little bit of a think before we finish about what a non-executive director is and why

they're important oh great so this is a really new role for me um marianne and um it's it kind of came a little bit out of the blue if i'm honest about it it's not something that i really had thought about doing before or really even, I guess, sort of understood too much about. But I was approached about this role. And the more that I looked into it, the more that I thought it sounded really interesting. And also, it came at just the right time for me. So I left the NHS sort of October, November time last year. and then I've been very focused on developing my psychology service my trauma service I was also very I found it really hard to leave the NHS you know I've always sort of held the NHS sort of close in my heart I think you know I've worked

I've worked there for sort of over 20 years and always saw myself as somebody who worked in the NHS. I've never intended to leave. But, you know, it was the right decision to make. And I've been really happy since I left. But I think I still felt that I wanted to do something to contribute, maybe to the NHS or to another organisation in some way. So whilst over the last few months I'd been, sorry, so maybe after leaving the NHS, you know, I did some work with a couple of charities because I felt like, you know, I still wanted to give back, if you like. So an associate, sorry, a non-executive director sits on the board of an organisation. so i'm an associate non-executive director with a large um nhs trust um and so we sit we sit on the board and so you've got the

executive directors these are the people who are paid by the organization so for example you've got obviously chief chief executive but also you know of, well, they're called people offices now, but essentially what was the director of human resources and you have a strategy director and so on. So different directors. And then the non-exec directors are people from outside of the organisation. So these are people who are on the board to offer, I suppose, an objective point of view and to come with some curiosity and to ask some questions in the board meetings to check that things have maybe been looked at from different angles, to be curious about what's happening in the organisation. So as non-executive directors, we're there to really support the board to help the

organization to deliver the best service that it can and to do that in the sort of safest way possible and I suppose that's by sort of sometimes being a bit of a critical friend my role as an associate non-executive director so this is a new role within the trust and they've not had an Fy rôl fel Rheolwr Nid-gylchredol Ymgyrchol. Felly, dyma rôl newydd o fewn y trws. Nid oedd ganddo Rheolwr Nid-gylchredol Ymgyrchol yn ôl. Ac mae wedi bod yn rôl cyfrwng mawr ar draws y GIG i gyfrwng Rheolwr Nid-gylchredol Ymgyrchol. Felly, dyma rôl newydd a fyddai'n bwysig i rai o'ch gwrandoeidwyr. Oherwydd y trws rwy'n ei wneud yn ystod hyn, roeddent yn ddiddorol iawn i gael clinisiann ar eu bwrdd, interesting to some of your listeners because the trust that I'm doing this in they were really interested keen to have a clinician on their board recognising that this is a mental health trust and that it would be helpful to have a perspective a clinician's perspective

so I found this very interesting because having worked in the trust for 15 years having sort of led services and supervised colleagues and obviously seen a lot of service users as well, I felt that I was in a good position to perhaps be an advocate for staff members as well as for service users. And I suppose as well, since I've left the NHS, then growing my own business gives me that other perspective as well on sort of strategy and, you know, sort of what's important in terms of growing a business and, you know, being more aware of sort of how things work in the corporate world, I suppose, is what I'm thinking there. So the associate non-executive director role I see as a little bit like an apprenticeship to becoming a non-executive director.

So the NHS has created these roles so that people who've not had experience of being a non-executive director can move into those positions. So this is a two year post. It is a paid post. We were talking earlier, weren't we, about how it's a bit similar to being a school governor. But the benefit here is that you are being paid. It's a role that I do sort of two to three days a month. So we have a board meeting once a month, that's a full day. And it's really very interesting, you know, to go back into an organisation at such a different level, to understand all the different sort of challenges and opportunities within the organisation organization to see the sort of decisions that have been made to work with a whole different array of people as well is really fascinating and so we have the board meeting and then we have the non-executive directors meetings

and then I'm just in the process of joining a couple of committees as well. So I'm going to be on the collaborative committee. But I'm also sort of spending some time going to each of the different committees in the trust so that I can really understand how everything works. So, yes, so far I've found it very, very interesting. And it's been, you know, it's been very very the team's been very welcoming so um it it feels very different to to doing the clinical work and i think that's something for me as thinking about you know you're in quite you need to be in quite a different mindset when you go into into the board meeting or rather to sort of recognize that you're not

going in as a psychologist you're going in as a associate non-executive director although of course you know I'm there to be a psychologist as well so so it's sort of yeah I think I'm finding my way really to think about how those two things come together. Yeah and I think it sounds like such fascinating work but also is further demonstrating the real flexibility and diversity of our career and where it can take us. And that, you know, you never know when something really energising and really exciting might crop up for you that, you know, that you can get involved with and that you continue to grow you continue to learn you continue to change and I think it's just wonderful you know I think if anyone if anyone's listening to this feeling like they're stagnating in their career there's you know there's opportunities everywhere and you know like like you said I did do school governance for a couple of years and I learned so much there

about strategy about being strategic about how to use constructive feedback and criticism you know there's so many ways that we can liven up our skills and help us to just feel differently but also be useful and and you know beneficial to services so thank you that's really interesting because I think even when I was working as an assistant and when I was working as qualified I didn't really get what directors did so I think that's really useful to have a little bit of a fly on the wall insight into that so thank you just before we finish Rachel could you give our listeners any advice for trying to reduce burnout on their journey in aspiring psychology world? Yeah, absolutely.

So I think it's natural to feel some feelings of burnout at different times in our careers. And one of the things that I've found really helpful and that I would encourage them to do is to really develop that other part of themselves that's that's not the psychologist if you like so it takes me back to a time when I was working in a NHS service and I think struggling a bit and I got really into rock climbing um into you know going to there's a great climbing indoor climbing world in Leeds and I was living in central Leeds at the time and I would go to this climbing wall most nights after work and I loved it I loved sort of solving the problems and the adrenaline of it and that really created a brilliant way for me to switch off if you think

about mindfulness it's really about sort of being present isn't it so when you're on the climbing wall you know you have to be present or you're probably going to fall off or you're not going to manage to to make the next move or to solve the problem but also it's about finding something that really fits with your values I think so thinking yeah you know so that so that work doesn't become everything that you're doing and I think it can be easy for for that to happen when we're you know really committed and of course most health care professionals are we really want to do a good job and we'll be willing often to put in those extra hours and making some time to do some stuff that that sort of is important to you and i would say it

also gives you that mental break from psychology so i think you know doing something that feels really different fits with your um values you know maybe you're stretching yourself a little bit so something where you can really get absorbed in that activity get engaged in it sort of um be taking yourself down another path so that's one thing and then the other thing that that I do now I've not it's not so easy to go climbing um with two children and um you know all their activities you know spend a lot of time sort of driving around in cars and sitting in car parks but um but the other thing that I do now is I just try and get into nature as much as I can and I find that that's really soothing so um getting out for a run or a walk you know going to beautiful places um and just sort of really enjoying enjoying that time so so yeah they'd be my my two um

go-to sort of self-care strategies i suppose such brilliant advice and thank you so much and thank you for spending your time and talking to us about such important areas. So I've really taken so much from our conversation and I know our listeners will as well. So how can our listeners learn more about you and connect with you and learn more about your work if they want to, Rachel? Where's the best place to find you? So I'm on all the usual social media platforms.

I've got a Twitter feed, which is DrRachelLee. On Instagram, I'm'n Northstar Psychology. Yn LinkedIn, rwy'n Dr Rachel Lee. Ac mae gen i wefan, northstarpsychology.co.uk. Rwy'n hoffi cysylltu â phobl o seicolegwyr eraill. Mae'n wych rhannu syniadau seicolegol a gwybodaeth a gweld persbectifau pobl eraill. Mae'r llyfr ddiweddarol rydyn ni wedi'i gyhoeddi, sy'n ymwneud â defnyddio ideas and knowledge and hear other people's perspectives. A recent paper that we've published which is all about using photographs in therapy and I think this might be interesting to your listeners because this is an area that I got really excited about when I sat on a steering committee for a photo voice research project and the participants who'd taken part in this, sorry, people who'd taken part in

this research, so the photo voice research uses photographs to help people discuss things that are important to them. This research was looking at barriers to improving physical health for people with severe mental illness and what the participants had done each week, they would be given a theme and they'd go and take some photographs and they'd bring them back and talk about this in the focus group. The purpose of that research was to pull out the themes. But what we found out was that the participants actually really loved taking the photographs and they really loved sharing photographs. And that really struck a chord with me as someone who also likes to share photographs as a means of communication, if you like. And so, yeah, we've just published this

paper, which was Dr. Jamie Barrow's doctoral thesis research. I was a co-supervisor together with Dr. Kira Masterson, who's the director of the Leeds Clinical Psychology course. And so, yeah, we were looking at people's experience of using and sharing photographs in a dialectical behavior therapy informed group. So the link to that is on my Twitter feed if anybody's interested. But just trying to share these ideas that, you know, we can use photographs in therapy, in mental health interventions. You know, people are taking photographs anyway, aren't they? People are sharing photographs with

people all the time on WhatsApp. So let's see if we can bring this into therapy. And there's lots of different ways to do that. So within our paper, we looked at the themes, the pros and cons of doing that. That sounds so interesting. And it's, it's just part of being a modern human, you know, when I'm doing personal training sessions with my personal trainer, or I'm, you know, with a friend or something, you often reach for your phone, don't you to demonstrate and show people something. And I think it's time that was in therapy. It's not something that I've ever really thought about, but really, really important stuff.

So if you share the link with me, I'll put that in the show notes as well. And obviously I'll link to all your socials in show notes as well. But I love that you're also demonstrating that you can still become involved in research even when you're qualified, even when you're in private practice as well.

So thank you for highlighting that to us. It's such a pleasure to speak with you and yeah, wishing you well with the rest of your day and the rest of the roles that you're engaged in at the moment. Thank you, Marianne. It's been a pleasure to speak to you. Oh, what an absolute pleasure to speak with Dr. Rachel.

I hope you found that as helpful as I did when I was chatting with her live. Off camera, I did ask, so do they give you, get a buffet? Do you get some lunch when you do your executive and non-executive meetings? No, no is the answer. And you do know that I do love a buffet. So yes, when I was in Galway recently for my keynote speech for the Irish Psychological Society, I was just dashing off after the meeting and the people that had booked me, who were lovely, as I was leaving, they were eating some fruit and they were like, can we get you anything? Can we get you anything? Do you want a banana? We've got lots of bananas. And I was like, I'm okay. Thank you. I'm not a banana fan. One of the few fruits I don't really eat. I can manage it with some ice cream or some custard. But yeah, I couldn't eat a whole banana by itself. um so yeah you learn random bits of information about me in this podcast that's one um anyway i hope you found it so useful um if you've got any ideas for future podcast episodes don't be a stranger do let me know come and hang out come and connect with me on socials i am dr marianne trent everywhere if you're watching this on YouTube, please do like, subscribe and comment. Do all those things. Share your favorite episode with your friends on socials.

And I'll look forward to catching up with you for our next episode of the podcast, which will be along from 6 a.m. on Monday. And, yeah, be kind to yourselves. Take care. this podcast at your side you'll be on your way to being qualified it's the aspiring psychologist with dr marianne my name's yana and i'm a trainee psychological well-being practitioner. I read the Clinical Psychologist Collective book. I found it really interesting about all the different stories and how people got to become a clinical psychologist. It just amazed me how many different routes there are to get there and there's no perfect way to become one.

And this kind of filled me with confidence that no, I'm not doing it wrong and put less pressure on myself. So if you're feeling a bit uneasy about becoming a clinical psychologist, I definitely recommend this just to put yourself at ease and everything will be okay but trust me you will not put the book down once you start