The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast - Disability and Leadership in Psychology | Dr Sunil Lad, NHS Clinical Director

Starting point is 00:00:00 What if the thing that makes you feel different is actually the thing that makes you a better psychologist? Today I'm joined by Dr. Sunil Ladd, a consultant counselling psychologist, national NHS clinical director, someone who's spent over 20 years working in prison and mental health settings, he also happens to be 3 foot 11 inches tall. And in this episode, we're not just talking about height. We're talking about identity, labels, power, different. and what happens when you grow up in a body the world wasn't built for. Because here's the deeper question, how do you turn lived experience of being othered into leadership and beyond?

Starting point is 00:00:42 If you've ever felt different, wondered whether this career is for someone like you, or if you're curious how compassion, therapy, and even yoga can transform suffering into strength, then this conversation might just change how you see yourself. If you find it helpful, I'd love it. Comment, liked and subscribe for more. Hi, I just wanted to welcome along our guest for today. Dr. Sunil Lad, who is a consultant counselling psychologist. Hi, Sunil. Hi, Marianne. Really good to be here with you today.

Starting point is 00:01:18 Lovely to have you here. And thank you for connecting with me on LinkedIn. And I know we've had some quite interesting conversations and there's a variety of ideas we had for episodes. And we're actually going to be doing two episodes together. So if people find what we're talking about useful, please do check out our next episode two. Could I ask you for anyone who's not watching on YouTube

Starting point is 00:01:39 or who might be visually impaired or just wants to understand the way that you see yourself and your body? Could you please describe a little bit about yourself, Sunil? Yeah, sure. So I guess what I'd say is that, you know, people would probably class me as having a disability. So I'm 3, 4.11 in height. But yeah, so some of my limbs are a bit shorter than other.

Starting point is 00:02:03 So obviously that has led to some challenges I've faced throughout my life over time. Thank you. And I'm aware that there's all sorts of terms that have been used in the past that maybe aren't always that inclusive or kind of very positive or kind of affirming for the person themselves. I know before we started recording, I was talking about a lovely book that my sons and I have read, which is by an author called Chinade Burke, and it's called Breaking the Mold. And she, I think, is about three and a half foot tall. And she really didn't like some of the labels that had been kind of leveled at her when she was growing up. So she actually, I think, petitioned the Irish government to have the term little person added to the deal.

Starting point is 00:02:56 dictionary and that's what she likes to use as describing herself. But I'm aware that everybody is unique and should be able to kind of think about what sits right for them. Could I ask you what you think about, about names, about labels, about kind of how you prefer to think and talk about yourself if that's okay? Yeah, sure. No, thanks, Marianne. That's a really good question. And I think we use these all sorts of labels in order to kind of describe ourselves and sometimes that can be quite limiting and I think it's really important we think about what's quite freeing. So I guess you know what I would kind of for myself look at is being a short person

Starting point is 00:03:35 because I think for me that feels like it's a it's a statement of fact really. I think it's hard isn't it because sometimes we put all sorts of judgments to different words. So yeah I think I prefer that really. Thank you and today we're kind of thinking about people's experiences, obviously heavily informed by your own experiences, but generically when we're working with people clinically, obviously people can come up against different challenges because of the body they find themselves to be in. But of course, you know, when we're working with people, maybe we might be looking at a mother's experience of raising a child who's growing

Starting point is 00:04:17 up in a different body or a father or for that amount of siblings. It can be really difficult when you feel like you're getting very different treatment to your siblings, because we might like to think that we exist in isolation, but that isn't the case. Could I ask you for a little bit about kind of your experiences of growing up in a different body, So now? Yes. So I think for me, it's kind of thinking about the environment in which I've grown up in, really. So, yeah, so I guess there were people in my family, so my sister, my dad, with the same condition, whereas my mum wasn't,

Starting point is 00:04:54 and then a larger extended family where there were other people without the condition as well. So I think it's interesting, isn't it? And I think especially growing up, we develop all sorts of insecurities. And I guess that sometimes can be hidden or that can be seen by others, but also I guess when we're growing up,

Starting point is 00:05:16 we're often compared to others around us as well, aren't we? whether that's how clever you are or how tall you are. You know, we're often seen to have either unattractive or attractive qualities where people, the environment kind of really promotes us. So I guess, you know, everyone will have their unique journey of what that looks like and then people develop their own coping strategies to cope with that, whether that's deciding, you know, I think a lot of therapy for me

Starting point is 00:05:46 has kind of made me realize that actually that's why I got quite academic and I got quite motivated in order to compensate about feeling different in a way or feeling not good enough, deciding to use, yeah, getting qualifications or working hard as a psychologist or wanting to be a psychologist to kind of compensate against that really. Yeah, absolutely. And as you're speaking, I'm thinking about a lot of the identities I might see myself as and the labels that are I've either kind of given to myself or others have given to me over the years. And, you know, I think it's always very difficult when you're going from becoming a teenager to a young adult and beyond. And, you know, you might want to be, I want to do this, I want to live independently.

Starting point is 00:06:33 But I would think maybe with being of smaller stature, maybe people are more likely to infantilise you or speak down to you or treat you differently. Has that been your experience? I think it's been really interesting in terms of especially, definitely, definitely, has been my experience and I think it's really interesting to see the different spheres in which I travel and I especially when I do training I kind of talk about the difference and recognizing the difference of for example how people might see me just as I'm shopping in Sainsbrutes compared to when I'm in a meeting as the lead psychologist in the whole team for example or you know walking into prisons with my role so

Starting point is 00:07:19 So I think there is something about, again, how do we use different labels or, you know, what do people initially see, which means that they might get treated as less than? Because I think automatically you do get that. But I think there's also something about how you might carry yourself as well, you know, I think for me, even just going to Sainsbury's, for example, and try not to hold any shame when I've got to ask for something that's on a high shelf. whereas actually that was a journey in itself, I think for me, kind of feeling really embarrassed at first to ask someone. And I think that that takes a bit of time. And I think maybe that's why I also trained as a psychologist to learn these skills of why I help other people as well.

Starting point is 00:08:05 But I think it's important to think about actually, yes, the world might not be equipped. but at the same time, I think, you know, as I'm someone who practice compassion-focused therapy, one of the things that I often think about is where is the wisdom? What wisdom can I use to apply to kind of really look at this rather than getting caught up in suffering? But I guess in a way, probably a lot of those experiences throughout my life have led to suffering in a way, you know, being talked down to. But also, I think maybe things are changing. I think people are really aware of these things now. People are, yeah, more conscious to not be disrespectful in a way

Starting point is 00:08:52 compared to probably when I was growing up, whereas people would be quite, obviously, there's probably cultural and kind of intergenerational messages, whereas I think older people would be quite okay with making a joke, whereas younger people I think would probably be a lot more uncomfortable. about it as well. And I think there's something about one of the things I recognise is that actually sometimes people can feel really uncomfortable and that's when they decide to make some kind of joke because that's their way of trying to talk about it but not talk about it as well.

Starting point is 00:09:30 Yeah, I think, you know, I often, I hope people are getting better and getting kinder, certainly in person, but keyboard warriors are not always that kind. and trolls. And I don't know if you follow the account of, it's a couple called, I think I called Squirmie and Grub. And one of them is in a wheelchair and I think has some sort of kind of muscle condition where the muscle tone is affected. But the female is kind of normal stature and walks ably. And people, I mean, that's their brand now. So I think that's what they do. They talk about campaigning and about kind of, yeah, how it's okay to, to be in a relationship and loving sexual relationship with someone that might look very different

Starting point is 00:10:16 to you and that people will really struggle, I think, to see that that's a genuine relationship or that it might say something about her if she finds him sexually attractive and whether that's consensual, but also like, A, it's not your business. They're grown adults, but they are happy to kind of answer those questions and kind of, I guess, try to reduce that stigma but yeah I think hopefully in person people are kinder but yeah the keyboard warriors I think it's very tricky yeah I think we are living in a different different age in a way where I guess we probably might have we might be very clear on what people might think before because they'd just say it but maybe really clumsily maybe in a joke but it'd be said whereas this is

Starting point is 00:11:10 you know, it's meaning that people are really venting some of their frustrations or just being really cruel as well. I think, you know, especially working in the prison system, I really recognise there is a dark side to humanity that we don't always want to talk about, or it gets used as entertainment in a way, or it gets played out in a certain way. And I think, you know, one of the things that I'm really conscious of, and especially thinking about this particular conversation is, you know, humour. I remember going to university and I used to love comedy nights, but also at the same time, really be really defensive and really ready for a joke to be had at my expense. And I think there is something about actually how comfortable our society with things.

Starting point is 00:11:58 How do we get primed into certain what is right or what is wrong? What should we feel comfortable about? What shouldn't we feel comfortable about? and what are no-go areas in a way. And I think in a way, what we probably need is a bit of a sense of, well, why do these keyboard warriors kind of happen? What's missing in their lives in a way, which means that they're letting out this level of anger and hatred towards others,

Starting point is 00:12:29 but obviously not able to do it in a small, they probably are in an aspect doing it within their own lives, but feeling that in a way they're able to do it more freely on the internet. And I think, again, I guess it goes back to that sense of anonymity as well. You know, if you think about some of the research of what we might do when we're in a car, for example, compared to when you're in person with someone. Actually, yeah, you might be more vocal when you're in a car compared to when you're face-to-face. Or even, you know, if we think about the new world of being online, actually how people,

Starting point is 00:13:06 people are in person compared to when they're online as well. Yeah, I think there's something about that. Yeah, absolutely. And I'm aware kind of people of shorter stature are often dissuaded or even are not allowed to apply for certain jobs. So one of my friends that I grew up with, I'm fairly sure, right in a sense, she was 4 foot 10, 4 foot 11, that sort of threshold. She'd always been really interested in travel and tourism and leisure and really, really wanted to be an air cabin person, stewardess.

Starting point is 00:13:42 She would have been amazing at it as well, just that she would have been incredible. She was never allowed to apply because she was too short. I think you had to be five foot four or something like that in your flat feet. And when I say flat feet, I mean with no heels on, really difficult. And, you know, you said that you've kind of worked. in prisons and justice systems are there any are there any kind of additional considerations or people saying actually you can't come in here you can't do that you've got to be of a certain height is that something you've come up against in your career senel or in your

Starting point is 00:14:19 history yeah actually i haven't and it's interesting you know i've worked in prisons for over 20 years now and i kind of fell into it in a way or maybe i didn't fall into it but it kind of happened and i don't think I was potentially aware of just what I was walking into, but I think at that time I obviously had a can-do attitude and had supportive people around me who said, well, actually we can make this work in a way. So it's never, I guess again, you know, there are things that might be high up or whatever. And I think actually when I first did start to walk into prisons, I think people were really worried. Would he be able to survive this type of environment, which which can be really hostile, would he be attacked, would his safety be, something to be concerned

Starting point is 00:15:09 about, but touch would, you know, over 20 years, I've even worked in high secure prisons. Nothing has ever happened back because I think there is that kind of general code in terms of actually, you know, therapeutically it's meant that people have felt able to be vulnerable with me in a way. So I think, yes, we think about the dark side of humanity, but also we can also think about the caring side of humanity as well. And I think, you know, there is, you know, I do look back and I think, oh gosh, you know, how did I navigate that? But there might be, for example, certain places which are harder for me to go through. But it's never, no one's ever said no in a way. There's always been that. Okay. So how do we make adjustments? And I guess for me,

Starting point is 00:15:57 that's probably the reality of my life in a way. How do I, how do I, adjust to the situation to something which isn't necessarily quick and easy to think about, really. So I think there is something about the resilience that we develop as human beings once we start to have that sense of adjustment. Yeah, absolutely. And I think one of the really lovely things I've experienced in this podcast is helping people to see how psychology looks different these days. there is no one-size-fits-all. So I had a really lovely, powerful session with Sky, who's registered blind and has a guide dog.

Starting point is 00:16:39 Yvonne, who uses a wheelchair, you know, a number of other people who just look different or may not look how you might expect as a psychologist or as an aspiring psychologist. And thank you for trusting the podcast to tell your story of looking different in psychology, but obviously still being able to really achieve. And I think what you're saying is you're able to form those meaningful working relationships that actually can be really beneficial.

Starting point is 00:17:11 Yeah, I really think actually there's something about how do we as human beings recognize that actually we're all trying to have some kind of experience. We might think that any profession, and that's not necessarily just psychology, we get caught up into some of these boxes of you must do this, this is quick and easy way. but actually what we end up being better clinicians by recognising, well, what is our lived experience? What is our human potential? And actually, how can this discipline really help me as well then to help others? You know, how do we use that lived experience to shape and help others? Because actually, you know, going back to compassion-focused therapy, we all experience suffering. I think there is something about how do we stop trying to switch off suffering,

Starting point is 00:18:04 but really be able to expand in our own suffering in order to become free of it. And I think that for me has been particularly important, both not only from my therapy journey, but more recently my yogic journey as well. Yeah, isn't it just the best secret source that nobody necessarily talks about, that when you are progressing in a career in psychology, you get to learn the tips, the techniques, you get to actually feel better. I am so much more well as a person, as a mother, as a wife, as a daughter, as a friend. And I'm just better because I'm a clinical psychologist and because I'm surrounded by all of the people that are incredible around me. And when I am struggling,

Starting point is 00:18:54 I can reach out to people and be like, oh, I'm having a tricky time with this. And they're like, you know, firstly they might respond to me as a friend, but then they've also got the skills to be able to help me. And it's just the best. It's the best. Like if you're wondering about a career in psychology, you know, maybe think about adding that to your plus list, I would say. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:19:16 And I guess for me, it's really important. You know, I guess as counselling psychologist, one of the things that was really important is to have your own therapy. because actually if you don't, it's hard to be aware of what your blind spots are. And I'm conscious not all part of applied psychology has their own therapy. But I think it's really important for us to recognise, well, actually this is what might be really challenging for me when I'm helping someone else.

Starting point is 00:19:44 And especially, I guess, you know, working in forensic environments, we come across all sorts of things in terms of the dark nature of humanity. at the same time, we're human as well. And I think if you don't have the right skills to be able to process what might be going on, that's when we see all sorts of dynamics play out, whether that is at work or in the therapy room as well. And I think, you know, being on thinking about power as well, I think that's really important to recognise the power that you might hold without recognizing it as well. but also how do we, especially when we're thinking about being trauma informed, for example,

Starting point is 00:20:25 how do we recognise that actually once you start to sit with what you're suffering is, how do you empower yourself to free yourself from it? Because I guess it can be quite disempowering to get caught up in that loop of what are the areas that I don't want to go towards. Yeah, absolutely. Really important stuff. And I'm sort of thinking about, you know, when someone is pregnant, and Ormock gives birth and then experiences that moment where their child physically looks different

Starting point is 00:20:56 than they expected. It's reminding me of when I worked in intellectual disability services and that's the idea of, well, you've packed for a holiday in the Caribbean, but then you realise that you've got to Italy and it's a city break and actually you feel like you're kind of woefully in-equipped and all the stuff that you brought with you, the tools, the skills, they aren't necessarily going to support you in this journey. How can we kind of, if we find ourselves working in services, supporting families, who are raising children, who might well be different than anyone in their family, different than what they

Starting point is 00:21:32 expected, how can we, I guess, help see, help them to see that this child can go on and do great things, you know, yourself evidenced, you are working at a very high level as a consultant and counselling psychologist. But of course, it is different than what somebody might have been expecting. Yeah, I think it's really important to think about, well, what support can we put into place? And I think support is really important. That empowers because I guess support, there's a tricky balance of what creates dependency and what empowers. And yeah, I think there's something of,

Starting point is 00:22:17 something about how do you use that as an opportunity to allow someone to flourish? You know, what do they need? Sometimes we might think we might know best, but that might not be the case. And I think, you know, I guess I feel very lucky in terms of the support that I had from my parents, from my extended family, from friends growing up. Yeah, I think there was always an opportunity, but also at the same time not to get stuck in it. Because I guess there's something, one of the things I try to work with clinically is thinking about the drama triangle, where actually we might really sit in that victim position where we feel hopeless and powerless all the time.

Starting point is 00:23:00 And I think that can lead us to feel quite dependent then on the system or become dependent on the system. And, you know, I recognise saying this, everyone's journey is going to be really individual. But I'm not saying that they don't need support. But I think there's a tricky, a slippery path in a way which could happen. And everyone's journey is going to be unique, but I think it is about what support is empowering rather than fostering dependence. Yeah. For anyone who's not familiar with the points on the drama triangle, could you briefly take us

Starting point is 00:23:37 through what that is, Sunil? Yeah, sure. So the drama triangle, kind of, we've got three points on it. So we've got victim, rescuer and perpetrator. And that's not necessarily about individual people. That could be systems, for example. And we often see this triangle play out, whether that's in services between people or between teams, for example,

Starting point is 00:24:00 where, you know, someone sits as a victim and, you know, because of experiencing some negative experiences. And then what often happens is that people might go into a rescuer position. And I think it's often that rescuer position which make people feel quite good. And therefore, there's always a trap, especially in the helping professions like psychology, where we could become the rescuer for someone. Or then when we might be put in boundaries or saying no, that's when people might be experiencing that individual as a perpetrator, for example, seeing a level of hostility, for example.

Starting point is 00:24:41 So I think what I've been trying to think about is how do we step out of this drama triangle by really challenging, by really empowering and encouraging and coaching people rather than getting stuck because also the positions might also move from person to person as well in this triangle. Thank you. Before we finish today, there might be someone listening to or watching this episode who maybe does feel a little bit different than their peers and wanting to it. to pursue a psychology or mental health career or maybe some other career and I just stumbled across us. What kind of advice or support would you offer, wise wisdom, would you offer to them? So I think there's something about how do you use your experiences as a vehicle to be able

Starting point is 00:25:31 to help others? Obviously, it's important to think about firstly, how do you help yourself, you know, how do you put your oxygen mask on first before you help others? But maybe, you know, know, what do you need to learn about yourself to have the skills to really be able to understand suffering, for example, and how then that might be able to help others in your own journey and to really empower, but also be that positive vision. Because often we see, if we think about inspirations, we often see a certain type of person, for example, in leadership. position. So I think there is something about how how people could think about really leading with a different face, with a different body, with a different, any difference, for example, that we don't regularly see. Absolutely, because you are a leader and this is what drew me to you on LinkedIn. I think when we connected, I didn't even realise you're growing up in a

Starting point is 00:26:34 different body until we were speaking and you were like, actually I could really talk to this point as well. Could you tell us a little bit about your leadership, about what you're doing in the NHS? Yeah, sure. So like I said, I've got two different positions in the NHS. So currently I work in Northamptonshire for their Healthcare Foundation Trust. And so I lead a number of services in terms of psychology within their prison services, but also other specialist service. Also, just a range of prison services, including a low secure forensic ward and just other types of criminal justice services. So that kind of leadership is really important for me to support people to recognise the challenges that we face.

Starting point is 00:27:26 So, you know, doing reflective practice and training and recognising, again, the dark side of humanity. But also, I've got a national role as well. So I'm the National Clinical Director for Health and Justice in NHS England as well. So I provide a clinical view supported by various colleagues to make sure thinking about health and justice commissioning across the country, really, having that clinical viewpoint. Gosh, what a busy and demanding life. You've got, juggling it alongside your own life and family life as well. Wow, hats off to you.

Starting point is 00:28:02 Thank you so much for your time and speaking with us. Where's the best place for people to learn more about you should they want to, Sunil? So I've done a TED talk a few years ago, which is on YouTube, just a 10-minute yoga practice where I briefly talk about my experience of yoga, being in a different body. There's another couple of podcasts out there as well. So any aspiring psychologists also, within NHFT we sometimes have positions available, especially for assistant psychologists or even qualified psychologists.

Starting point is 00:28:39 So if anyone is interested, then they're more than welcome to get in touch. Perfect. Is LinkedIn the best place for people to follow you if they want to? Yes. Yeah, no definitely. I will make sure all those details are in the show notes and on screen. Thank you so much for your time. And if people, people are interested in hearing more about embodied practice and yoga, then that will be the topic of our next episode. Thank you so much, Sunil. Thank you. What an absolute pleasure to speak with Dr. Sunil Lad. If you enjoyed this conversation, I think you'll enjoy the next one too, because I am joined by Dr Sunil Lad again, and we're talking about embodied practice, which is a

Starting point is 00:29:19 wonderful episode, I know, because I've already recorded it at the point that I'm doing this outro for you. I hope you love being part of my world. I hope you love hearing stories about psychologists of different shapes, sizes, nationalities, backgrounds and experiences. If you do, I do think you'll really like the aspiring psychologist collective book and the clinical psychologist collective book, which both get excellent reviews and gives you a really lovely insight into the world of psychologists and what got them to be where they are. I would also love it if you consider writing a blog article for the aspiring psychologist. Why not check out the ones we've already got?

Starting point is 00:30:03 Head along to www. aspiring hyphen psychologist.co.com. UK and then scroll to the free resources tab and then click on blog. I might well try and make that a bit simpler and try and add blog to the main screen too. And whilst you are there, why not check out the aspiring psychologist membership too? I think you might enjoy that as well. If you'd like to consider joining my inner work, the backstage crew, you can join the channel for exclusive members-only content.

Starting point is 00:30:36 They're really lovely little standalone episodes that help you think about where you are at right now. There's details in the show notes or in the description. With this podcast, that's your side, you'll be on your way to being qualified. It's the aspiring psychologist podcast with Dr. Marianne Trent.

The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast - Disability and Leadership in Psychology | Dr Sunil Lad, NHS Clinical Director

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