The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast - From International Student to Clinical Psychologist in the UK | Dr Samuel Chu

Starting point is 00:00:00 What does it take to actually move to the UK as an international student and to become a qualified clinical psychologist here? Not the glossy version, not the website version, but the real version. Today I'm speaking with Dr Samuel, originally from Hong Kong but now a UK qualified clinical psychologist working in the NHS. And we're unpacking international student fees, visas, NHS access, assistant psychologist posts, the clearinghouse process, And of course what it's all like navigating a system that wasn't designed with you in mind. If you're an international student wondering, is this even possible for you, then this episode is your roadmap. If you find it useful, please like, subscribe and comment for more.

Starting point is 00:00:45 Hi, welcome along to the podcast. I am joined today by Dr. Samuel Chu, a qualified clinical psychologist. Hi, Samuel. Hi. Thank you so much for being here and thanks so much for connecting with me on LinkedIn. I feel like you've been in my world for quite some time now. I've been seeing your name pop up. And for pitching this episode to me,

Starting point is 00:01:09 because you're really passionate about there being more international students, becoming trainee psychologists, and ultimately becoming qualified psychologists who then begin practicing in the UK, aren't you? Yeah, no, yeah. Thanks for having me here. I think it's amazing that you have this platform for, you know, people like myself to share what it's like to,

Starting point is 00:01:33 to be practicing psychology in the UK as a person that isn't born here. So I think it's, yeah, to demystify this entire process is very good. Thank you. And I really do see the value of having different experiences culturally and, you know, in terms just of our own interests and, you know, our own backgrounds and, you know, the way that we see the world. you tell our audience a little bit about, I guess, what brought you to the UK and kind of how things have been for you since? Yeah, so I'm from Hong Kong, born and raised there, kind of

Starting point is 00:02:15 studied my entire life in Hong Kong up until undergraduate. So I think throughout my kind of life in Hong Kong, I've always been interested in psychology, not specifically clinical psychology, but just the idea that, you know, we get to try to understand a little bit better about the way we think, the way we feel and the, and why we are, you know, behave the way we do. And when I was choosing my university, I was thinking about either going to a university in Hong Kong or in the UK. And what drew me to picking UK for my university choice is, you know, how good. good the research is. I think UK is leading on a lot of different areas in psychology. And, you know, I've never really gone out of my own country. So I thought at that time it would have been an experience to sort of step outside of my comfort zone and pursue something that I

Starting point is 00:03:20 found quite interested in in a completely different country and a language that you speak from. But since then, I've been here for eight years now. Yeah, and, you know, it's been good. It's been good. I've learned so much throughout my entire journey in clinical psychology, living here, working here, different language, different cultures. So, yeah, have a lot of feelings and experience from that. Amazing.

Starting point is 00:03:52 I have to say, I felt pretty adventurous when at the age of 18, I moved from Milton Keynes to Wales to do my degree. But you're making me look pretty, pretty timid there. Yours is very, very much more bolder and a bigger and braver decision. Like I'm, I am going to the UK. I am moving to London. Yeah, no, I mean, it was, I mean, I was 18 back then, right? So what do you know about like, about the world and the significance of your decision

Starting point is 00:04:23 when you're, when you're that age? And I wouldn't imagine that people might plan a lot when they're young. They just like, okay, I want to do this. Let's just go for it. And I'm quite fortunate to be able to do that. So I think, you know, looking back to it, sometimes you wonder, wow, how could you have made this decision? You know, you didn't know so much about what it's like living in a foreign country. But you learn a lot along the way.

Starting point is 00:04:50 You learn the struggles that a lot of people have gone through. And then you go through yourself. what it means to be an ethnic minority in a country, what it means to think and speak in a different language, to have your life sort of completely reset, where you kind of put yourself in a complete different situation, a new situation, and then how we can navigate around that, and what you learn from being able to navigate around those difficulties.

Starting point is 00:05:20 And I think, yeah, I think it makes you a more resilient person, I'm in the end and I would imagine being a trainee or future trainee would you go through similar things as well. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, like I hear you when you're 18, we're just like, yeah, I'm going to do that, it's going to be fine and everybody else will just fall into place around me and it'll be fine. That was certainly my experiences anyway. So you apply to the UK, you applied to to learn to university in london to do your undergrad and i presume there's some sort of visa stuff to sort out as well and then you're able to come and stay for those three years initially or is it a little bit longer than that how did that process look so in order to study in the UK you need when

Starting point is 00:06:06 you go a tier four visa so what this means is that you need an conditional offer from your university or an unconditional offer and then you apply through the government to get a tierful for visa and with that visa it means you can stay here and study here for the duration of your university degree and you also get an X amount of hours to be able to work not full time but you know part-time and then afterwards once your tier 4 visa runs out you usually get a i think two-year graduate visa where you get to stay here to look for jobs and once you do find a job you then need to kind of negotiate for work visa. So kind of this is sort of the process that it might have changed over the years, but this is generally what should happen. Yeah, okay. And I think I'm right

Starting point is 00:07:01 in saying that when you're an international student, you do actually pay more fees for your undergraduate and your postgraduate study than you would if you were a home student. So if any international student is looking at the website, they might well notice that the international fees are advertised as higher. And that can be a bitter pill to swallow because in essence you're not getting anything different and you're having to pay more for it. Yeah, yeah, I think you do pay it significantly more

Starting point is 00:07:35 and there is no loan that you can have from the UK government. You know, I think the only loans that you might be able to get is through your own government in your own kind of country. So it is a significant amount. You have to pay for your own accommodation, food. You have to pay for the NHS, unfortunately. So that will cover national insurance. So I would, you know, encourage students, no matter what level you're undergraduate,

Starting point is 00:08:06 postgraduate, you know, you've already paid for NHS. You might ask, and you should register for your local GP as well. You know, I've seen a lot of international students where they didn't even even know that they could access at the NHS, they thought they had to pay for it. So definitely register for a local GP so that if there is something come up, it's better safe and sorry that you have these resources. Great, so it sounds like you pay kind of a yearly fee, which would be your national insurance, which would then allow you to access hospital services, emergency mental health

Starting point is 00:08:42 or routine mental health services, GP, and then also being able to go to renew It might be helpful to say an NHS dentist that you get treatment that you then have to pay a little bit more for as your NHS fee. So nobody really gets the free NHS dentistry, but you get it heavily subsidised. But once you're paying your national insurance as an international student, you are able to use those services as if anyone with a British citizenship would be able to. Yeah. Okay, that's so interesting. And I'm actually really good friends with someone that runs a student mental health support at a local university. And I know that for international students, it can be really lonely because often people move without their family.

Starting point is 00:09:31 Often they've moved without any friends. And so kind of looking after your own mental health can be key, kind of. It can be a real challenge. Could you give us any kind of advice around that? especially I guess if people are coming in from an Eastern culture where actually mental health can be really stigmatized. Like, you know, I don't want people moving to the UK and really feeling like it's awful

Starting point is 00:09:55 and having a negative impact on them. Yeah, I think it is important to take it easy, to be compassionate towards yourself. I think a lot of us underestimate how big of a challenge it could be because, you know, when you are stressing about getting into the university, getting enough funding to go, supplementing yourself, visa. We sort of forget that there's actually a lot more to living somewhere completely different

Starting point is 00:10:26 than you would expect, given how, you know, you have so much support system in your home country. You know, you have friends established already. You have your parents, your loved ones. You know how the system works. You know where to access care. and you know the language and the environment that you have lived in for 20 years in your life. So I think it is important to be aware of first what the challenges can be, but also what are the resources that you can have around you once you are in the country.

Starting point is 00:11:03 So for example, if you are here for university, there's actually a lot more resources than one might think once you have landed here. So for example, you have university support, student support that are super helpful. One of my placements when I was in UCL was in the student support team and the team was brilliant when I worked there. So there's so much support you can have. There are also a lot of societies that you can join. And a lot of those times, you know, those societies, there's like a million societies that you can join.

Starting point is 00:11:42 I bet one of them would be something that aligns with your own interest or your own culture. So, for example, at UCL, at almost all London universities, there's a Chinese society, there's a Hong Kong society. So, yeah, there's actually a lot more support than you might think. And I think it's important to stay connected with those support systems. Yeah. I wish I thought of that when I moved, even when I moved from Milton Keynes to Coventry to do my doctorate, I sort of arrived with an undergraduate mentality of I was single and I thought everyone else on my cohort would maybe be single and would be just be able to go out and have fun and like, you know, just be really like young free and, you know, and just have fun and explore

Starting point is 00:12:30 Coventry. And it really wasn't that for me. And I was one of the only single people on training. And so I think I was lonely in the evenings and the weekends. And I used to travel back at weekends. And I don't think I ever really thought of myself as a student, because once you're working, you're doing university, you're doing placement, you're kind of doing assignments, I don't think I've really tapped into that student mentality other than the NUS discount. Like, I was down with that. But I don't think I've really thought, oh, I could have joined some local staff, like with the university. And I had the choice of Coventry or Warwick. So I think anyone listening to this, if anyone's moved for university,

Starting point is 00:13:12 Even if you're a mature student, I think that's great advice from your Samuel, actually, is think what might be going on that might be able to support you to either develop new interests or to kind of develop and cultivate ones that you're already interested in. So that's brilliant advice. Yeah, no, I think, you know, in the end, we are social animals, right? No matter how independent you are, you know, we need people around us. And, you know, I think universities is a great way for us to try out different things. You know, even if you are on the doctorate, for example, or you're doing a master's in psychology. It's important to not forget that, you know, you're there to not just learn, but also to experience what it's like to live in a, you know, in a different place to be in an environment where other people are learning as well. and that you know it is university is a place where people of all backgrounds come together because they're interested or they want to learn a subject so there's already some relevance that you can connect with and you know i think especially studying and working in london you see so many different

Starting point is 00:14:29 walks of lives like people from all over the world come to london to work and to study and you meet a lot of diverse people and people who are completely different and very similar to you as well. So I would encourage people who are thinking of whether or not to come to London or to the UK to study to like, just go for it. You know, how bad can you be? I love being in London. So I probably travel there about once a month at the moment. And I'm probably in London as worst nightmare because I speak to everybody. The last time I was there, I costed someone to come to help me when I was in Barbican to help me try and find somewhere.

Starting point is 00:15:15 We went walking together and we had a big old chat and it was lovely. And then I was in the Prettamonte, jean, getting the train home. And I overheard a conversation. It was really interesting and I joined in. I just love opportunities to talk to people and learn about people and their stories. so I definitely bring some of my more northern approaches down south. But I just, I love it. So yeah, I like that idea of actually coming and experiencing some of the UK culture

Starting point is 00:15:47 and yeah, learning about it and just seeing what you make of it really. It's powerful stuff. So for you, you did your undergraduate and then you almost immediately after that do a master, Samuel. Yeah, I think you made a really good point. point about difference between the big city versus kind of smaller areas and towns. And maybe it's my own kind of growing up in Hong Kong is, you know, it is in many ways similar to London where people don't socialize with each other and they're always on their phone.

Starting point is 00:16:23 So they actually can be quite lonely at times compared to the northern side where everyone is treat each other like they have been friends since primary school. So, yeah, I think it is a very good point. And I think that's why having those systems in place is quite important. Because at times it can be quite lonely, you know, given how people, there's so many different people in London that sometimes they might not seem like a university campus or university life because you're walking with professionals and wherever else in London.

Starting point is 00:17:06 Yeah, yeah. I genuinely say hi to everybody that I walk past in the street. Like I have made a friend in the street that was 84 at the time. And we did become friends for quite a number of years until she moved out of the area. And she got to know my children. She was a bit of her like a step-granny. and that was literally just from becoming kind of familiar strangers and then chatting. And then I also once met a friend in a car park because my little boy who was in a sling at the time had pointed to them

Starting point is 00:17:35 and was very insistent that we go over. And that ended up with us being friends for quite a few years as well. So I really do talk to strangers, but yeah, not everybody does and you might not be able to achieve the same if you came to the UK. So Samuel, you went from undergraduate. to kind of postgraduate study. You did a master's, I think I'm right in saying. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so after my undergraduate,

Starting point is 00:18:04 it was an interesting time because during the undergraduate, COVID happened. So that means there was a period where, you know, there were no lectures that, you know, I was back in Hong Kong. And so, you know, during that time, I was also kind of working a little bit in research, in psychology and

Starting point is 00:18:27 you know afterwards I was sort of having this dilemma of whether or not to go into academia so research university in clinical psychology so working as a practitioner or something perhaps completely different like in big data and you know AI which

Starting point is 00:18:47 it's actually quite funny I think thinking back to it now that AI is so prominent and Hey, maybe I should have gone to AI work. But anyways, I end up choosing a master's in clinical forensic psychology. And I think what really influenced me into doing that is because I had an assistant psychology post back in undergraduate working in forensic psychology. So I remember speaking with one of the lectures in my forensic psychology placement. and he was basically inviting everyone, the whole class,

Starting point is 00:19:24 to see if anyone wanted some experience in forensic psychology, just email him. I end up being the only person who emailed him. And so, yeah, right? So I then, you know, started kind of going under his wing, observing some clients, client work, and I started picking up cases myself, doing psychometrics, doing assessments,

Starting point is 00:19:49 with him. And I became quite fascinated, actually, in forensic psychology and in the way, you know, people think, feel and behave and how our earlier relationships really influence how, how we relate to the world and with ourselves and with other people. So then I decided to sort of, because I know how competitive clinical psychology is. I've seen the forums. I've seen YouTube. I've other YouTube videos of people say, you know, I've tried 10 times and I'm still, and here's my reflections and they're all super helpful actually. But I thought, you know, clinical psychology is something I've became increasingly interested in. So that is something that I want to put both fit in and yeah, go for it. Yeah. Wow. I cannot believe that of a whole lecture studio,

Starting point is 00:20:44 only one person and that was you email to do the kind of the shadowing. Like I would have snapped my own arm off to get that opportunity. But it sounds like you learned a lot and it helped you to kind of think, I do, I do want to become a qualified psychologist. Yeah, yeah. And I think there is so, there's a lot of benefit in doing research obviously, you know, you get to kind of pave the way of more new evidence-based. But I think if I ever do that, I'll always have this thought in my head, like, you know,

Starting point is 00:21:27 what would it be like to work with the people, you know, work with the feelings and with the emotions. And, you know, there are, of course, a lot of benefit to have those experience when you do research as well. And that's what the doctor is extremely helpful for. And yeah, and I think, you know, I end up being very lucky. I had very good mentors. I had very good experience, opportunities. And, you know, I think that's how I got onto training. Were you able to secure paid work or was it all kind of honorary, as they say,

Starting point is 00:22:04 or voluntary work until you got onto training? So I did secure paid work. when I was on the clinical forensic psychology, it's a stage one training in forensic psychology. So that means that we need a minimum of 60 days in clinical work. So then there I worked in a medium secure unit and as an honorary assistant psychologist. But towards the end of that, they had an assistant psychologist post that came up and I applied for it. Well, alongside many other assistant psychologist applications I did not get in. So I got into that and so I was actually, I've actually started my assistant psychologist post as a paid employee there.

Starting point is 00:22:48 And then at that point, you know, I got an offer from UCL. So then, you know, that's where I transitioned my assistant psychologist role. Okay. So people might be watching this because they're interested in becoming a psychologist or they might be watching this because they're looking at coming to the UK to do something else. but I'll just briefly explain. So to become a clinical psychologist in the UK, we have to apply through a scheme called the Clearing House. And they will sort out the applications for home students

Starting point is 00:23:22 who then would attract NHS funding. But actually, there's a number of universities across the UK, not super loads, but a number of universities that do accept international or self-funding students. And so we still use the same forms, a clearinghouse, and you still have to have the relevant experience, don't you? You still have to be able to demonstrate that you're a great candidate for this role. So it isn't like it's not going to be a walk in the park for you to be offered this place. Could you talk to us about your experiences of that, Samuel?

Starting point is 00:23:57 Yeah, of course. So I think it is very important to think about the requirements to apply for, like, doctorates, different universities have different requirements in their clinical training program. So, for example, if I remember correctly, KCA has a minimum of six months, even though most people apply have a year or more. And a lot of universities is a mixture of both clinical and research experience. So clinical work could be work as an assistant psychologist, as a psychological or well-being practitioner as a perhaps healthcare assistant or kind of a clinical research assistant where you have patient-facing role as a research assistant.

Starting point is 00:24:43 And for research experience is basically a research assistant post or above where you sort of a part of a research project in a university program. And a lot of unis require a mix of one year of either pure clinical or a mix of clinical and research. So there is a lot of questions, I know, from different queries that the UK international trainee group has, where a lot of questions are, you know, is this clinical experience in my home country? Is it relevant when you apply for UK doctor programs?

Starting point is 00:25:25 And most of the answer is yes. you don't need clinical experience from the UK in order to apply for training. Obviously, you might get an advantage. Let's say, you know, if the university is looking for whether or not, you know, how the NHS system work, because once you're in training, you're working in the NHS. So working in psychology, in the NHS might give you some experience in what that's like, but it is not compulsory that you need NHS experience to get onto training. And, you know, there is another section that asks, you know,

Starting point is 00:26:03 what you think of clinical psychology is, responsibilities are in the NHS, and I think that's where you kind of showcase what you think it is, what you know it is. But overall, you know, it is six months to one year of clinical and our research experience, and it doesn't have to be continuous, it can be done maybe like part-time or full-time. Yeah. Yeah, thank you. And actually, since you've now qualified, I think you said that even during your undergraduate,

Starting point is 00:26:42 your family moved over to the UK and you are, you are, you know, working towards hopefully becoming a British citizen, aren't you? Like this is, this wasn't just a three-year impulsive jaunt. This is, this is becoming your life. Yeah, yeah. I think there is a lot that the UK offers. I think it's very different. And I've been really enjoying living in London.

Starting point is 00:27:08 I think, you know, even after seven, eight years, I'm still exploring London. Like, it's just so big. Apparently it's larger than Hong Kong. It is crazy. So, you know, I think I will continue to stay here, if not to kind of think about what being a clinical psychologist is like and what it's like practicing here compared to in other countries. I think being a clinical psychologist in the UK is quite different, both studying and working here compared to other places. Thank you. And so are you having to kind of reapply for new visas at the start of each block of study to make sure that you're going to be able to complete those?

Starting point is 00:27:57 Yeah. So for undergraduate masters and the doctorate, you require T for visa. So this is something that you need to apply for. And I would say you shouldn't wait until the last moment to apply. It does take a while as well as the DB. is something that we use in the UK in order to kind of prove that you have no criminal records, for example. And in order to have that check cleared, you need both a police check from your home country and in the UK. But I think getting the police check from your home country is super important before you come over to the UK. Because if you don't do that, then it might take an extra amount of effort to get that police check done. before you start training or in any kind of clinical jobs where you have faced with patients.

Starting point is 00:28:53 That is such good advice. And actually when I was an assistant psychologist, I ended up working in a youth prison and the enhanced DBS wasn't enough. So I was 27 at that time, I'm gonna say, and they wanted a 20 year history and they wanted references from everybody spanning that 20 years. So I actually had to write to my primary schools, which I think covered

Starting point is 00:29:22 two primary schools and my secondary school and, you know, the jobs that I'd worked with, I had to get written references for everybody. So if you end up working in prisons, you might well find that you've got some additional hoops to jump through. But yeah, we do have the DBS system which stands for disclosure and barring service. And even as a qualified psychologist, I'm signed. up to the rolling enhanced disclosure that means that I pay yearly to kind of for them to check and say that I haven't been caught. I haven't got a criminal record. I haven't done anything, I should say, but yeah, I haven't got anything on my record. Yeah, and I don't think speeding fines count. So for people who might occasionally

Starting point is 00:30:08 accidentally speed, you know, it's don't worry about that. Yeah, excellent advice. And then so now you're your, your, you're qualified. You're finding your feet as a qualified psychologist, you know, full stop, let alone in the UK. But, you know, I guess how do you, how do you take the next steps? How do you, because you do want to build this life in the UK, how do you strive to be able to do that, Sam? So I think a lot of people put training as a pedestal, so, oh, once I get on training, everything will be complete and, complete and you will know everything now and your life is complete but yeah well getting on to train it is is super super impressive and like you have done it but there's so much to life after

Starting point is 00:30:57 qualifying that you don't really think about before you got on right so and you know this is I'm in a stage where you know I'm thinking about a lot of different things so what kind of psychologists I want to be what kind of psychologists I want to specialize in and also what it means to be a clinical psychologist working in the UK who speaks the different language who's in a different culture who has an English a different accent and so I think everything is sort of an experience for me and things that I then take back to reflect on. And so, you know, at the moment, I am working in a child developmental service because what is brilliant in training is that you get to experience different types of services,

Starting point is 00:31:59 you know, and, you know, so I've worked in general mental health, I've worked in child and adolescent mental health, I've worked in neuropsychology, in leadership placements, and I've really enjoyed working in CAMS back in my placement. So that's what I've decided to do. And this is, again, something that is quite nice working as a psychologist in the UK, which is that you get to pick what you want to do after you qualify. I know friends who have then gone on to academia, who have gone on to adults or neuroscience or psychosis. And, you know, I've chosen for this stage in my life to work in children's mental health, which I find very rewarding and very interesting. But, you know, who knows where life will take me, right? I think at the moment I'm thinking about working in

Starting point is 00:32:53 community mental health next to see, you know, what that's like and whether or not, you know, I could develop my own identity as a practitioner. Yeah, amazing. Was there anything, as you think back, that really surprised you about British culture or that you didn't see coming or were like, I cannot believe this. Well, actually, there's a lot of things, right? But maybe it actually shows the difference between my culture and the British culture. But in my culture, there is a lot of emphasis on people older as they're elderly, as someone you have to respect a lot.

Starting point is 00:33:30 And there are also different customs that you do, depending on age and, like, ranking. So, for example, if you are studying in a university, university in Hong Kong. You have to call every lecture or professor as Professor Chan or Professor Professor X, Y, Z, right? In the UK, you call people by their first names, which is something that I'm still a bit kind of not uncomfortable, but like it catches me by surprise every time. Where, you know, it is actually quite friendly. You know, most people are very friendly in the UK, be in the workplace. in university, if you are brave enough to talk to them, they can be quite friendly.

Starting point is 00:34:17 And this is a surprise for me, I think, because, you know, I think, yeah. How about the British sense of humour? What should people be prepared for that? Yeah, major sarcasm. I think, you know, it is quite funny because a bit about me is because I am exposed to the Westernised. media, like I watch Netflix, for example. I'm on the internet. I'm on YouTube.

Starting point is 00:34:44 And so you already get a lot of exposure for American cultures, which, you know, I'm generalizing heavily, but compared to the British culture, everything's a lot more subtle. So I think it's definitely something to grasp. Like, for example, you know, I am very well rehearsed in what the weather is like every morning because it definitely changes by the hour. You know, we experience four seasons in the day. So I can't, and I can't believe that I didn't talk to you about the weather when we first started this podcast this afternoon. It's raining currently where I am.

Starting point is 00:35:23 You might not surprise anyone watching this. Could you tell us a little bit about where people can learn more about you, where you are on social media. Tell us about your YouTube channel, Sam. Yeah, so I have a YouTube channel called Sam who's psychology, where I share a little bit of bit about you know my own thoughts and feelings about what it's like studying in UCL which was where I was trained and also a little bit about what the application procedure is like and I know Marianne also has her own extremely lovely and professional website so you can do that as well and you know I also have my own

Starting point is 00:36:00 website to think about kind of working in private practice so at the moment I am I have my own little private practice where I see kind of adults and young people who are looking for mental health support. I am also kind of engaging in a lot of therapy and psychoeducation and webinars for people who are in marginalized communities who really want more access to psychological help or psychological knowledge. And I think it is super important for us to remove these barriers to mental health and to psychology. And so I'm doing that as well. And for any other prospective international candidates that might be interested in clinical psychology, of course there is another committee called UK International Training Committee that is being run by a lot of my lovely friends and colleagues. So there's that as well.

Starting point is 00:37:01 Perfect. I will make sure that all the details are in the show notes and in the description if people are watching on YouTube. Thank you so much for this chat. It's been really fascinating. Thank you for your time, Samuel. If anyone has got any questions, any comments, drop them in the chat and we'll do our best to keep an eye on those. Thank you, Samuel. Thank you. Thanks for inviting me again. Oh, you're more than welcome. What an absolute delight to speak with Dr Samuel. Thank you so much. much again, Samuel, for spending your time and sharing your wisdom with our audience. If you would welcome learning more about UK clinical psychologists and people's roadmap to becoming them, you can absolutely check out. The Clinical Psychologist Collective inside is over

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The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast - From International Student to Clinical Psychologist in the UK | Dr Samuel Chu

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