From Police Officer to Trainee Clinical Psychologist at Age 47
00:00Hi, my name is Beth and I'm a psychological well-being practitioner from Newcastle.I just wanted to say the biggest thank you to the contributors of the clinical psychologist collectivebook. I've enjoyed reading this so much and loved having an insight into the range of backgrounds andexperiences. People have prior to applying for the doctorate and it's been really interestingseeing the potential barriers to the application as well and how I can try and work around this.I really started to doubt myself and whether I was good andto apply for the clinical psychology doctorate but this has really given me the confidenceboost that I needed to give it a shot so the biggest thank you ever.
00:40Medically retired at 40, trainee clinical psychologist at 47. Claire's story is one of reinvention,resilience and doing the impossible, landing a place on the doctorate in clinical psychologyon her first ever application. If you've ever questioned whether it's too late for you to chase yourdreams or feared that you don't fit the mold, this episode will show you exactly why thatthinking needs to change. Hope you find it super useful. Hi, welcome along to the aspiringpsychologist podcast. I am Dr. Marianne Trent, a qualified clinical psychologist. Some of my mostpopular content on YouTube has been that of older applicants. Whilst you mention YouTube,if you don't already like and subscribe, please do take a moment to do that now.
01:28Today's episode is helping us take a look at an old applicant.She is 47 currently and has just gained a place as a trainee clinical psychologist.It is a fascinating episode.We do discuss issues around suicide, around traumatic workplace settings, around prison.So if you are around young ears or you think that maybe now is not the most appropriatetime for you to look after yourself, please do feel free to come back to this episode at a later stage.Hope you find it really useful and I'll catch you on the other side.So Claire Dunn, welcome along to the podcast and congratulations on becoming an incoming
02:04trainee clinical psychologist. Thanks for inviting me. Yeah, it's such a privilege to be invitedto come along and join you today. Well, we've got chatting on LinkedIn, didn't we? And your storyis not typical and I love it. Because actually you had a successful career in the police.you rose to the level of police sergeant and I hope it's okay to say that your current age islet me say you say your current age how old are you Claire? I'm very proudly 47. Okay so you've hada great amazing so you've had a career in the police and then obviously at some point you thoughtno I think maybe psychology is actually where I want to be could you talk us talk us through some of thatClaire? Yeah, so I joined the police at 20. I really didn't really know what I wanted to do. I
03:04wasn't a child that grew up, wanted to be a police officer. If I'm honest, I wanted to be aBlue Peter presenter. And at the age of 20, I kind of thought that's unrealistically going tohappen. And I had a friend joined the police and I really was excited by the things she was doingand the riot training. And I thought, well, I'll give that a whirl.applied and I got in straight away, which I was really quite surprised about, if I'm honest.So at 20, I started my police career.At the age of 27, I was promoted to police sergeant and I worked predominantly response.So your blue lights, your urgent jobs.
03:45I specialised also in child video interview.so children who were witnesses of victims of crime, custody.I did a stint as custody sergeant, which I enjoyed very much.And I completed 18 years service.However, towards the end of my service,it became apparent that my mental health had been quite severely impactedby some of the trauma that I'd been exposed tothrough the incidents that I'd attended.
04:17And there were maybe four or five incidents,that I kind of had, you know, reoccurring thoughts about and struggled to process.Unfortunately, a decision was made that I needed to be medically retired.I was diagnosed with PTSD as a result of attending those incidents.And unfortunately, my career came to quite an abrupt end at the age of 38.And I found myself, having finished one career, wondering what I was going to do next.I was very clear.I didn't want my life to be defined by a job I once did.
04:58And it was really important to me that I had a second identity.Very few police officers go on to do anything else.Once a police officer, always a police officer.And that was very much the narrative and the culture from which I came from.And at 38, I had a medical pension.I could have, you know, kept it there.but I decided, no, I wanted, it was really important to me to have a second really meaningful career in which to live out the rest of my life with.I'm not someone that wants to retire at 65 or I'm very much working is part of who I am and my identity.
05:43But it needed to be something equally as meaningful.Yeah, well, thank you, you know, on my heart.with the great British public for the service that you provided in policing it's not an easy joband it is you know very nuanced it's very important but it also it does have an impact and actuallymedical retirement is not uncommon I've experienced in police services but also nor does it comewithout you know great levels of sometimes shame and regret and blame and kind of sadness about thatbecause people have often really enjoyed working in the police and that part of their identity.And so when medical retirement is kind of first mooted, that sometimes feels quite challenging in itself.
06:30And we probably could do another whole episode on that, and maybe we will in future.But how did you then begin to think about psychology?So I studied psychology at a level.I'd always really enjoyed it.I was always been fascinated by human behaviour.And as a police officer, I, unlike many of my colleagues, I did look beyond the offender.And I always wanted to understand, I had this real innate desire to understand how offenders came to be where they were at that point in time.What was their backstory?
07:09I don't believe people are born mad or bad.there is always a backstory and working in custody and as a police constable, I would spend a lot oftime conducting constant supervisions with detainees within custody to safeguard them becausethey were a risk to themselves. There was either a suicidal or a self-harm risk. So I couldspend upwards of 10 hours a day, literally sat outside a cell and talking with offenders, young and old.And it became really apparent that there was a trauma theme that ran through pretty much every offender I met.And that trauma then translated into substance misuse, so be it drugs, alcohol.They became incredibly vulnerable, in particular the females that I encountered, and in turn turned to offending behaviour.
08:06And it was this cycle that was perpetuated by the trauma that they had experienced.But as a police officer, it's a very punitive role, and there is no opportunity, really, to kind of support in any type of rehabilitation.So when I came out of the police and I was medically retired, I thought again about psychology and mental health specifically.I attended more attempted and completed suicides than I can recall.The number was so devastating, actually.And I can talk a little bit about some of those experiences later.But I felt quite drawn to mental health and improving the lives of othersthat were struggling with mental health.
08:52And we know that offending behaviour and mental health go hand in hand.Trauma and mental health and offending behaviour also go hand in hand as well.So on a whim, and literally on a whim, late.On August, I decided to sign up for the Open University psychology degree that started the following month.And it really was on a whim.I had done a degree.I made the decision to go straight into the police rather than do a degree.I was meant to do primary school teaching and I changed my mind at the last minute and didn't go.
09:31So on a whim, I signed up for the degree and that's where it all started.Amazing. And we'll perhaps hear a bit more about your experiences and kind of flexible learningand self, kind of self-paced learning often a little bit later. But I just wanted to pick upon what you'd said about, you know, the prison service and the justice services being fullof traumatised people. And it's so incredibly true. And if people want to learn more about that,I would really recommend an incredible book by Chris Dorr, QC, which is called Justice on Trial.Such an interesting book. And I might have.well, reach out to Chris and see if you'll come and talk to us on the podcast because it's such
10:10an interesting topic. And I'm intrigued about, you know, before you started your undergrad withthe OU, did you have any relevant experience roles working in kind of mental health?So shortly, shortly after I was medically retired and once I was well again, having receivedquite intense CDT therapy. I made the decision to start working with young people in alternativeeducation. So I worked for an alternative education provision, which are very similar to what wereknown as Prue, so pupil referral units. So their settings that provide alternative educationfor young people that are unable to access full-time mainstream education due to a number ofenduring issues, including mental health issues and challenging behaviour arising from trauma.
11:07I worked predominantly with looked after children. I did that for five and a half years in total,and I worked in that setting on a part-time basis alongside my degree with the Open University.So I feel that it gave me a lot of experience, and I was able to really reflect onwhat I was learning within the content of the psychology degree and kind of reflect and put thatinto practice with working with these young people. So really, really super helpful.Amazing. And how long did it take you to do your undergrad degree? And a question I always wondered,do you still get like an in-person graduation, even though it's kind of all remote?You do. You do. And actually, that great.
11:59graduation was something I held in mind. My best friend had completed her teaching degree with the Open University before. And I remember her on her graduation walking across the stage at the Barbican Theatre in London. And on those really difficult days, nights, early hours of the morning, when I'm trying to meet deadlines of assignments, it was that I really held in mind. So the degree in total on a part-time base,is six years. However, in year one, there is the opportunity where you can kind of do two modulesimmediately after each other. So whereas you would normally work from October, the course wouldstart and you would normally finish at the start of June, I have the opportunity to completethe second module, which is the equivalent of the second year by starting that. I think I started that inaround March and that went all the way through to the end of September. So in that first year,I had about four months where I overlap two modules and that was really, really challengingin terms of time. When I started my degree, my children were 11 and 13. So I was still very much
13:23a mum and the commitments of all the clubs and, you know, school.and everything like that.My daughter was still in primary school,so I was still doing school pick-upand balancing, working in the school as well.So that first year was really tough.However, it paid dividendbecause it actually reduced the length of the course
13:45from six years to five years.It did mean I didn't get a summer break from it in that first year,but it did mean that I was able to complete the degree in five years,which I actually really recommend for anybody.If you can manage to do that, then I think that's really, really helpful to reduce it by year.Yeah, absolutely.So, and what stage are we at now?How long was it ago that you graduated from your OU degree?
14:17So I started in 2018.I completed in June 2023, graduating in September,2023. So it's been, we're coming up for, yeah, two, over two years now. Amazing. And what haveyou been doing since? So as soon as I had, I received my result, my classification, I workedreally hard. I was very driven to achieving a first. And the reason I was so driven toachieving a first is I had watched, joined a webinar about clinical psychology and roots.into clinical psychology and at this point I knew nothing like I didn't even really know thedifference between a clinical psychologist, a counselling psychologist, forensic, educational
15:08and I watched this webinar and I saw the success rate in terms of age and then it got to the 40sand it was I think it was less than 1% and it was really emphasised that how competitive it wasand a first class degree was really quite important.So I made it my, really, my life's work really at the time to secure that first.So as soon as I had that confirmation that I'd received the first and I had my degreewas all confirmed, I started applying for assistant psychologist roles within the local area.I had one interview quite quickly.I didn't get the job.
15:54I got some really lovely feedback.And the feedback I got was the applicant that we have recruited, had previous NHS experience a week,and that was evidence through the language that they used, that they'd worked within the NHS before.I then went again. I got another interview very quickly. And within a month, I had secured an assistant psychology post.And this was in our mental health support team. So working in schools. So actually,even though I didn't have that clinical NHS experience,the experience I'd gained through working within an education settingreally placed me in a really good, strong position for that post,
16:39and I was really fortunate that I got that.Well, well done to you,and I know that when I chatted with Sam previouslyabout kind of the barriers to progressing in psychologywhen you might be slightly older than the average applicant,that actually the salary of an AP role, typically at band four or band five,can keep people quite stuck from accessing that route.Because, of course, if you've got a family to support,
17:06that is not a massive salary in this day and age.And I'm guessing the police pension obviously helps subsidise thatto make it more accessible for you.And I'm very pleased to hear that you've been able to do that.And I guess ultimately that's meant that you are now,you know, you've been able to apply to the doctorate in clinical psychology. I think I'm writingsaying the first time and then you were successful and I've got on. So tell us about that processfor you. So the process of becoming an AP in terms of salary that you've mentioned is really
17:42problematic and it's something I feel quite passionate about actually. I'm very fortunate. I havea husband who brings in a good income and alongside mypolice pension, I could supplement my salary with my pension. I could top it up. Had I have beenan old applicant with children, it would have been impossible. You cannot survive on it. I think Iworked it out. It's something like £12 an hour. I could have got paid more in Audi, working inAudi or Liddle. At the time, I think they were paying £13 an hour. So it's really difficult.It's extremely problematic, and again, it closes that route off to so many people that are not in that privileged position to be able to do that.And something needs to change, and that's something when I am qualified, and I feel that my voice can be heard a little more, that I would like to advocate, in particular, older entrants, APs.
18:44The majority of APs I work with, they do still live at home.So it is accessible to go on that band four wage.But there is absolutely no progression, like you say.Band 5 AP roles are non-existent,certainly within the trust that I currently work in.There aren't Band 4, Band 5 roles anymore.So you're really stuck.And unlike the other banding,
19:09whereby you move to the next increment after two years,for Band 4 it's three.So you really are very, very stuck.in that role.Yeah, thank you for talking to us about that.And I hope it didn't feel kind of too prying.But I know it is a really important conversation.And yeah, like if we really want to advocate for diversity in our workforce,
19:36like it matters, doesn't it?And, you know, we don't want people in a position where they're having to go to the bankand saying, can I have a loan to support me to be an assistant psychologist?Because ultimately I'll be able to pay that back hopefully when I'm,when I'm a qualified psych.Like, that's not how we want to be getting diversity in our workforce.So tell us then about what came next, you know?So from that one AP role, have you then applied to the doctorate in clinical psychology?
20:03I knew that before I could apply, I needed 12 months experience, clinical experience,which prior to entering the NHS, I didn't have.So initially, I thought, great, I will graduate and I will apply that year.and that will start the process.And then somebody told me the reality.And I was very much, oh, okay.So then I had to accept I was going to be an AP on a ban for wage for a minimum of two years.And I got my head around that through thinking that it would be an investment.
20:38I was investing.This was a stepping stone and it would require some investing.So I worked within the mental health support.team as an AP. I worked beyond my remit. I went a little bit further. I brought over my passion forreducing male suicide based on the experiences I'd had with attempted and completed male suicidesinto this service. It was clear from the outset. There was a huge disparity between the number ofboys and girls being referred into the service for low mood and anxiety. And I really wanted tounderstand why that was. With male suicide, the leading cause of death in men under the age of 50,
21:22for me it was blatantly obvious that we needed to be targeting boys at a younger age to break downthose barriers and stigmas, enable them to feel safe and secure to access mental health supportat a much earlier stage. And to recognise the signs of poor mental health, which I think issomething that still needs a lot of work. So I started a quality improvement project and I basedit in a school and that project really did give me a springboard into my career. I had a veryunique opportunity I had to present the findings of my project to the trust executive boardof directors. I was able to increase the number of referrals from this school from 4% for boys.up to 50% by between January of 2024 and November of 2024.
22:22So in that short space of time.I did that through a number of routes, including boy-only assemblies to raise awarenessof mental health in which I invited a guest speaker from Health Watch Essexwho had lived experience of mental health.I've developed a boys' participation group to have so that the boys could be heard andthey could shape the service they receive. And that gave me an awful lot of really valuableexperience that I could use as evidence for my doctorate application, which was really helpful.And that's something I really advocate any APs. Go beyond your role and your remit.
23:07look to do something different, such as a quality improvement project. We know that we goand we do clinical service audits and we'll look at data, but see what more you can do,because I truly believe that that work that I did, which is work that I would like to continueas part of my thesis, if that is I'm allowed to do so, that work really did provide mewith that additional evidence that I neededto demonstrate that I was ready for the doctorate.Yeah, and it sounds like such an important piece of workand well done to you for kind of reducing that disparity
23:48in kind of gender referrals to actually make it equitable 50-50 boys and girls.Like that's, you know, really important.And I'm kind of just going to point out that the episode before this onewith Jack Lowe for our watchers and our listenersis kind of about kind of making the most of the experiences you find yourself in.And we talk about something called kind of job crafting,which is exactly what you've just spoken about,kind of trying to really maximize your opportunities for learning and growth.
24:19So if people want to learn more about that and haven't already watchedor listened to the episode with Jack,please do check that episode out as well.So you got all this kind of on a form, you know,you were happy with your form, you clicked, submit,it? Then what happened? Then I changed jobs. So I stayed within the mental health support teambeyond the 12 months purely because I wanted to see through the quality improvement project.So I stayed in the end, I think it was 19 months. So longer than anticipated. However, I click
24:56submit and thought, okay, I'm either going to get on this year or I'm not. The last,likelihood is I'm not. The odds are stacked against me because we know the statistics, we knowthe ratio, and we know the chances of getting on first time are really, really slim. So I needanother role. If I'm going to apply a second time, I need a different position in a different serviceto show that I am expanding my skills and I'm able to diversify it and work within anothersetting. So I applied for a number assistant psychologist roles within Essex where I liveand within London as well. I was really lucky once again. I had an interview with aneating disorder service based in Barking, covering Barkin and Dagenham, Waltham Forest, Redbridge
25:49and Havering, boroughs of London. And in April of this year, I joined the intensive supportpathway of the CAMS section of the eating disorders service. So I've been working as as an AP nowsince April. I did break the news prior to starting. Great news for me. But I said, you know,for full transparency, they knew that I had applied. I was very opening interview I had applied.I said for full transparency, I have been offered a place and I have accepted. So my time here will beshort but I you know I will give it everything 100% and they wanted some support with setting upa quality improvement project which is ongoing at the moment so they were still keen for me to gowhich I was really relieved about because actually I was really excited at getting that experience so
26:44from April until I start on the 1st of October I'm in the eating disorder service and theexperience is incomparable to anything that I've ever done before.Having that physical health component, the assistant psychologist role, is so valuable.I feel like a nurse.I do blood pressure.I do the way in the blood's temperature.And I really enjoy that physical health aspect.I work really closely with psychiatrists, clinical.
27:20psychologist, psychotherapists, really, really experienced clinical nurse specialists.And I feel so fortunate to have been able to have these five months within that service.So that is what I did.So after I click submit, that's what I initially did.And that's worked out well.It has.But I do want to shift your narrative perspective slightly because you keep telling us that you're lucky.You're very skilled. You're a strong applicant and you deserve to be here. You have had a successful, long career as a police sergeant and all that that entails with working with offenders, working probably closely with families as well and staff teams and kind of the police organisation as a whole. Also, you've applied yourself very, very firmly and strongly in your OU degree. And you've
28:20got a first and you've gone above and beyond in every role you've done and done that jobcrafting but also you know you haven't thought right well I've clicked submit I'll just wait andsee you've thought well how can I make myself an even stronger applicant so I've got maybesomething else extra to talk about interview or you know or just more strings to my bow for nexttime you deserve to be here Claire and I'm so excited for your future cohort who who getspolice sergeant, you know, background and expertise, who gets, you know, someone that's a mummyto probably quite grown up people now. So you've come through the education system,who is married and all that that entails, who likely has her own experience of grief,
29:10loss, friendships, but also applying yourself and holding yourself accountable and self-actualising,I would say you are not lucky. You are an incredibly strong candidate and that the doctorate course are lucky to have you.Thank you. I think we experience imposter syndrome quite a lot, don't we? I remember getting the first AP role and being told it can take years to get your first AP role. I had a 10-year plan. My 10-year plan was I started by degree at the age of 40 in 2018.my tenure plan worked like this. Okay, so six years for the degree. That was initially. One yearclinical experience, three years doctorate, and I will qualify at 50. I then brought that down tofive years and then I had that realization that actually it would be two years before I couldstart the doctorate once I started to get clinical, but I'd have to get on first time. So this10-year plan was going to be tough. I got the first, I secured my AP role literally within a few
30:23weeks of getting my final result for the degree. And I remember on my first day, going into mytrust, and I work for a wonderful trust, NELFD, North East London Foundation Trust. I'm picking upmy badge and seeing the words, assistant psychologist on my ID badge and feelingso proud, so chuffed. Going in and on my first day, I met with my team and I worked withsome wonderful people in mental health sport team. But there was this one individual who wasa band five at the time, so not a senior. And she said to me in front of everybody,I don't mean to be rude, but you're only a band four. What could you actually do? And at that point,my bubble burst and that realization hit me, I'm only a band four.
31:21And I've been fighting against that psychologically ever since.And I think that's why I probably on reflection used terms such as lucky.I've been called out a few times for saying I'm only a band four.And my colleagues and my seniors have said, Claire, you're not, you're not only a bandfor you're so much more than a band for you're so different to any assistant psychologist we'veever had you need to stop saying you're only a band for and i i would second that but also you knowa question that i'll often ask someone in a trauma service is how much of that that person said to youdo you need to hold on to and how much can you let go that comment has driven me and after my bubble
32:11it lit a fire in my belly and yes I am currently a band five I'm going to be a band six I'm going toleap I'm going to be that band six and then on qualification going to be a band seven within 12 monthsI'll be an eight a and my aim is a band nine I want to be making I want to be an executive directorI want to be making fundamental changes and improvements withinthe NHS within the trust. From a band fort, I have battled to make those changes.To me, it's so clear what we need to do for example in schools to reduce male suicide.Let's start with the younger generation now. But as a band four, I just don't have that network.I don't have that connections, authority, but that comment really drove me. And that's
33:05something that I, I belong to a number of AP forums. And APs often feel very demanding.moralised by how they're regarded. People don't have an understanding of the skills that theybring. And I use that story a lot. Let that bring fire in your belly. One day, I will supervisethat clinician and I will remind her what she told me. And I will ask never, never to repeat thatand never say that to anybody else that is on their way up. You are a force to be reckoned with and I amexcited to see how you thrive and how you grow. And please do keep us posted. If you've gotany kind of last advice for someone listening to this who've maybe not feeling that maybetheir time has ticked past for them or that they, you know, they've been burned by people
33:59that have made them feel that they can't do this. What would you say, Claire? This is a long,hard process, like to become a clinical psychologist, I think is actually longer than to become amedical doctor. I think it takes longer. It has to be your passion, your dream. You have to bemotivated. You have to really, really, really want it. If you don't, I don't think it's necessarilythe right path for you. But if you do, then never give up. I have a friend who I've met throughAP forums. We worked on a AP community of practice together with the psychology professions,psychological professions network, the PPN. She got on this year after seven attempts. She'salso an older applicant. She has children. And this was her seventh year and she's got on.
34:55So if that's what you really want, then just, just don't give up. Be really, really focused.And look beyond the undergrad. Look beyond the band for and the future. And that's what I'vealways held in mind. So when I'm feeling really demoralized, really undervalued, I hold thatin mind. I hold that. And when I got that email to say, been offered a place, I cannot beginto describe how how that felt. It was unreal that I got that. I got one shot. I got oneinterview, one shot, and I knew everything was waging on that. The other three, I didn't getan interview. I wasn't shortlisted. So I had one shot. I was my true authentic self ininterview. Everybody told me to be. I thought, I don't think that's good enough. On the day, I decided I
35:55would be and it's paid off. Just don't, don't give up and it's never, ever, ever too lateto change career. I will qualify at 50. I have no plans to retire. I've got friends my age that'stalking about winding down. I'm winding up and I will continue working for as long as my brainwill allow me to cognitively continue working and I'll be working within the NHS as well. And I'msuper excited. Amazing. Hats off to you and many, many congratulations, but this is not, this isnot a fluke. This is not a fluke. You absolutely have earned your stripes and you deserve to bethere. You deserve to be here and I'm excited to see how you grow. So please do stay in touch withthis. Thank you so much. I will do. And thanks for having me on. Oh, you're so welcome.
36:49Lovely to getting to chat with you. It's been a real privilege. Have a beautiful rest of summer.and hope that your training goes well. Thank you. What an absolutely brilliant episode that was,what a real privilege to speak to Claire. And if you like me think that Claire is an incrediblycapable applicant, please do give her some love in the comments on YouTube. And if you'reseeing this content on social media, please do like, comment and share to help it reach thewidest audience possible. If you are able to rate or subscribe to shows or follow creatorsthat you really rate, that really is the kindest thing you can do. So please do do that if you lovethe content that I create here. If you've got any ideas for future episodes, please don't be a
37:32stranger. Please do come and connect with me on my social media where I'm Dr. Marianne Trent everywhere.If you are an aspiring psychologist and you are thinking that it's your time and you're readyfor the next step, but perhaps you don't have the requisite, you know, support, guidance,nurturance, things to help you stretch your own development, then please do consider joining usin the aspiring psychologist membership community, which gets wonderful reviews and which you canjoin for just £30 a month with no minimum term. And then, of course, if you are ready for somethinga little bit more intensive and a little bit more time with me, please do consider theReady to Rise program, which is just the biggest pleasure to run. And that means that you get
38:1612 one-to-one sessions with me across a year plus a load of other great benefits too, which youcan check out in the description on YouTube for this video or in the show notes on social mediaor if you click any of my link tree bios, you'll find the information for the membership andfor ready to rise there. Please do come and grab your free psychology success guide from my websitewww.AspiringhyphenPsychologist.comco.
38:47com.UK.Hi, my name is Emily. I am a master's student studying clinical psychology at Southampton.I bought the book of the Clinical Psychologist Collective to help myself prepare for my first roundof doctorate applications, and I'm so glad I did. Seeing how others have reflected on theirjourneys has been so insightful, and it's given me a lot to reflect about with my ownjourney and skills. It's also helped to put things into perspective and reminded me that if I don'tget on to the doctorate this year, that's okay. I think the most unexpected pleasure of this book,
39:55however, was just how inspirational each and every person's journey was. And using these storiesas my morning motivation each day has been such a pleasure. I'm almost reluctant to come to the end.You know,
There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click any sentence in the transcript to leave one.