The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast - Gender, diversity & inclusion with G Sabini-Roberts

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hi there, it's Marianne here. Before we dive into today's episode, I want to quickly let you know about something exciting that's happening right now. If you've ever wondered how to create income that works for you, rather than constantly trading your time for money, then you'll love the Race to Recurring Revenue Challenge with my business mentor, Lisa Johnson. This challenge is designed to help you build sustainable income streams. And whether you're an aspiring psychologist, a mental health professional, or in a completely different field,

Starting point is 00:00:32 the principles can work for you. There are also wonderful prizes to be won directly by Lisa herself. And if you join the challenge by my link, you can be in with a chance of winning a one-to-one hours coaching with me, Dr. Marianne Trent. Do you want to know more? Of course you do. Head to my link tree, Dr. Marianne Trent, or check out my social media channels, or send me a quick DM and I'll get you all the details. Right, let's get on with today's episode. If you're looking to become a psychologist, then let this be your guide. episode. with Dr. Marianne Trent.

Starting point is 00:01:36 Hi, welcome along to the Aspiring Psychologist podcast. I am Dr. Marianne Trent and I am a qualified clinical psychologist. Thank you so much for listening. So when we are working in mental health there can feel like a lot of different issues that we need to be aware of and it can feel like a very quick-paced, quick-moving beast really to get our heads around and how best to understand the broad variety of people that we work with and their unique needs that might well be different to our needs personally and professionally and one of the recent very important debates and themes that have been raised in the media but also in mental health has been that of gender and diversity and I'm delighted to be able to welcome my guest today so that we can all think about how to understand more about these important issues and how we might be able to make changes in the way that we do things in our personal and professional practice

Starting point is 00:02:40 to better be inclusive and to yeah help other people know how open to conversations we are in this area and how we strive to help people feel understood validated and heard and seen please do stick around to the end because you will be able to learn about an exclusive competition that I'm running to win two very exciting prizes. But you'll need to take action quick because the entry will close a week today. It will close at midnight on Monday, the 2nd of January 2023. So dive in, listen to this episode to find out how you can enter the competition which is linked to the content of today's podcast. So with no further ado let me shush and introduce you to our wonderful guest for today. Hope you find it so useful. I'll see you on the other side with more information about that competition. Hi, welcome along to today's episode of the

Starting point is 00:03:51 Aspiring Psychologist podcast. I am thrilled to be introducing you to G. Sabini Roberts. Hi, G. Hi. So there's a number of reasons I wanted to talk to you in today's episode, because you're just a really interesting character to get to know. So we met on socials and I've been following your work for a while and you're really inspiring for a number of reasons. By trade, you're a brand specialist of doing branding and logos and things like that is that right? That is right yeah the original business 11 years old now yeah it's graphic design with a very definite brand specialism yeah. Yeah but you definitely have a more modern twist on the way you work and the topics that you talk about and that's really what I want to talk with you and to our audience about today. So originally I wanted to talk to you for a little bit of help really, a little bit of guidance

Starting point is 00:04:52 for how we can be really inclusive in modern mental health services, for thinking about diversity and gender and all stuff along those lines. what's your best advice for how we can do things better in modern mental health services gee oh what a huge question I think based on on the conversation you and I have already had what we really want to talk about is is confidence and comfort in being able to talk about these things. So just in terms of background, I'm queer, I'm non-binary, trans, I use people who are LGBTQ, we end up inadvertently delivering awareness, training, information, being the go-to voice because we're the only gay that somebody knows, for example. We all do that anyway. That's something we do for free every day of the week. However, a few years ago, we started offering that, myself and a couple of partners started offering that on a professional basis as well.

Starting point is 00:06:06 So I have that slant to things too, but I'm very much an LGBTQ specialist within that. So really, I think the biggest question for most people seems to be example how do I speak with them refer to their past talk to them in a way that enables them to access whatever it is we're trying to access in a way that includes them and doesn't put up barriers is that right is that is that where do you think that kind of thing is what will be useful for people here absolutely yes please Okay so the first aspect of this is to recognise that when it comes to gender identity particularly gender identity is is an identity it's how you feel in your head your gender is between your ears not between your legs is a brilliant quote

Starting point is 00:07:00 that's a Charles Bono magical quote but it's true so when we're talking from a psychological point of view it is very much it's an identity that is owned and it does not necessarily correlate in any way shape or form with somebody's physiology biology anatomy hormones chromosomes all of the things that go into making a biological sex and it's important to acknowledge that because somebody may walk into a room and you look at them and you clock them as a particular gender and you do not know that that's the case until you've actually asked them if that's how they identify and this is why it's sometimes really easy to inadvertently put our foot in it because we make assumptions and that's the first thing is to recognize that we live in a

Starting point is 00:07:47 massively gendered society we have gendered everything from jobs to emotions to fashion all of it we have assumptions of we see this and we assume male we see that we assume female and that's the thing that we need to unpackage if we are going to make sure that at any moment when we meet somebody new or we encounter somebody new we are aware that they may not identify in the way we're going to assume that they will because we've been conditioned by the world we live in that's the first thing so anytime you might say oh yes and that you see that that lady down the end of the corridor that's the person immediately you do not know that person

Starting point is 00:08:28 may be wearing a dress but with that and if I was a lady would they identify as a lady even if they identified as a woman yeah it's all about recognizing the language we use can be very weighted and being conscious of as a starting point and and we can we can work around. So there's been a lot of conversations over recent years around pronouns and people sharing their pronouns and asking for pronouns, and that is a really significant thing. I have encountered people who have said, I see other people sharing their pronouns, but I'm a man, I'm clearly a man, people perceive me as a man, and therefore I don't need to share them because it's obvious.

Starting point is 00:09:11 And if we can reflect that back, we can say, well, if you are somebody who is regularly perceived by the world around you, by the people you encounter every day in the street, as the gender that you know yourself to be, then you have gender privilege. And what we are asking people to do by adding their pronouns to their email signatures or their their ID tags on their video calls and things like that is we are recognizing that not all people identify as the gender you may assume them to be when you see them on screen or encounter them in a in whatever setting you're in we don't know and by adding our own we help to normalize the process of including that as part of how we all generally identify first off it means

Starting point is 00:10:04 that you're always going to be gendered correctly because your pronouns are right there but it also means that two things one you'll encounter people who say why do you put your pronouns on there you you you've got a beard and a deep voice you're clearly a man well actually not not all people who maybe have those features are men, and I'm making it clear that I am, and I'm also subtly telling the world, telling any person who is gender diverse that may encounter me, that I'm safe. I get it. I've thought about this stuff, and I recognize that as somebody who has gender privilege, I can start to normalize this process of asking for pronouns, making identifying one's own pronouns part of normal everyday culture. It takes the pressure off gender diverse people to always be the people who are saying excuse me can I just correct you there?

Starting point is 00:10:53 Which every time you have to do that we've got that the negative impact that that has on somebody's mental well-being is significant especially when you're doing it 33 times a day so we start to help to take that pressure by being proactive in that kind of thing so that's that's the first point to acknowledge is we don't know i know that's specifically gender and we may want to talk about diversity and inclusion in a more broad way but that is one of the most significant questions i get asked what what's all this more broad way but that is one of the most significant questions I get asked what what's all this pronoun stuff about and that is what it's about that's really interesting and I know you know I think on LinkedIn because it offers you you know to choose your

Starting point is 00:11:38 pronouns I have done that but like you said you know whilst I don't have a beard um I do have long hair and often wear dresses. And so I wouldn't necessarily have thought, for example, on this to put Dr. Marianne Trent, she, her. That would be my pronouns, wouldn't it? But I will do. I will work out how to change this on StreamYard and I will do because, yeah, I think you're right um just because I'm feeling like I know that I am a she and her um it does give gives the sign that I'm happy to have that conversation and see that as an important conversation to have so that's absolutely my first learning point from from talking with you so thank you for that Jay. No worries it's it's fascinating stuff it really is and just say i

Starting point is 00:12:26 know plenty of non-binary people and gender diverse people who to look at they have long hair they sometimes wear dresses it i don't know until you said that then i didn't know and then we've got a side issue here when it comes to titles you know you have a non-gender specific title which has pros and cons you know I would I have one mine is MX and that although it has been a legal title and and recognized for the last 20 years it isn't on every form that's also a very interesting conversation to have because I know you had quite a high profile battle with your mortgage provider when you moved recently didn't you could you tell us a bit about that because that was fascinating it was it was a little bit crazy but yes um my legal name is mux g just the letter g c just the letter c sabini roberts that is my

Starting point is 00:13:22 complete legal name I changed it by people I have all the documentation my bank accounts are in that name am i my driving license is in that name that is my legal name and just as an aside anybody can change their name by deep hole to anything at any time and that is entirely legal so I have a legal name and it's what I go by at the start of this year my wife and I wanted to get a mortgage to buy the house that we now live in and the broker that we were working with came back and said right we've got the mortgage it's all agreed it's great and here it is and they had put Mrs. as my

Starting point is 00:13:59 title. So of course we went back and said well actually that's that's not correct and can you change it please? This is the legal name and this was with one of the UK's biggest banking groups, in fact the biggest I think and we were basically they didn't have my title on their system. They couldn't figure out how to make it work. So well, we can't do that at which point we have a problem because we also have money laundering laws that state if you are taking out a financial agreement such as a mortgage

Starting point is 00:14:29 it has to be in your legal name otherwise you're breaking the law so we have two things going on here that is firstly we can't our systems the computer says no essentially our systems can't accommodate that because yes it's been around for 20 years but we haven't put it, our systems, the computer says no, essentially. Our systems can't accommodate that because, yes, it's been around for 20 years, but we haven't put it into our systems yet. And then you've got the book. We can't give you a different name. They did try to give me different names. They suggested Mrs. They then suggested V as my title.

Starting point is 00:14:58 V, G, C, Sabini Roberts. For some reason, they could make that work and they couldn't make Mooks work. And eventually, after weeks of wrangling, which, which of course we were in the process of trying to buy a house, it's not exactly a low key time. So it was quite a stressful situation, full stop. Eventually they did find a workaround with their systems. The media got hold of this because at one point i reached out and i said this is maddening and really frustrating how come you can't use my legal name i cannot be the first mux person who

Starting point is 00:15:32 has tried to get a mortgage with this massive bank it can't be the case however it turns out i was the first one to have that problem and then not back down and come and agree to a compromise and so we made it everywhere we were we were we were in the daily mail and on lad bible and all over the place talking about this the fact that this is such an issue and then ultimately celebrating the fact that they figured out how to make it happen and they are going to be changing their processes moving forward they now have a system by which people who have a title that isn't already on their system that they can actually use their legal name to get a legal mortgage it was it was huge um and it was just for me it was crazy that it in 2022 that it had to happen and it had to get as big as it did

Starting point is 00:16:21 before they actually worked out how to make it fit. Well done to you, though, because actually it is that I'm not backing down. This is correct. This is right. And I believe this needs to happen and it should have been available. Whereas lots of people will just comply, won't they? I might have taken the um but like you said that's not my legal name I am not I am not the Marianne Trent um you know legally I'm doctor or missus um so those would be the options I would have gone and if doctor hadn't been available I would have gone with missus but actually I should have the choice to be able to say doctor if I want to um but not all systems are

Starting point is 00:17:04 geared up for that no and that's the same everywhere even within the NHS I am only registered with my legal name in some but not all aspects of of my health care simply because some systems can handle it now and some can't which is a challenge. And this is a challenge when we're looking at healthcare in a broader sense, because we have got different issues at play here. When we start looking at healthcare settings,

Starting point is 00:17:34 I know we're talking specifically about psychology here, but it's the same if somebody is an inpatient for whatever reason, and they are in a ward with a group of people who are meant to be the same gender well if I was a trans man and I changed my I actually went through and changed my name on my medical records and changed my mark up my gender marker from a female to male then I would be invited for standard prostate screening. I would not be invited for cervical screening, for example. If I went into hospital and a trans man who goes through a full transition

Starting point is 00:18:14 is a man and will be perceived as a man by people in the street. He may have facial hair. He will have a deep voice. His body fat distribution in his body over a period of years of taking testosterone will you you will recognize him as a man but actually that man could still get cervical cancer for example and if they do and they're taken into hospital what would you put them in because if you put them in a gynecology ward and the five other people in that ward are women, looking at this bearded chap in the bed on the opposite side of the room, they're not going to feel comfortable. That man is not going to feel comfortable.

Starting point is 00:18:53 We actually have a challenge here to how we make trans-inclusive and gender diverse inclusive practices function i'm not i don't have an answer necessarily but there are very big questions on how we how we work this how do we find a way that meets everybody's needs absolutely and i think we're going to be really stirring the pot now rightly so in um in mental health services up and down the country as we all then go to our care notes software whatever software we're using and just looking at what pronouns are available and rattling some cages if the there's not more inclusive options available so yeah really important to to get our little renegade activists out into out into services yeah it's partly it's partly uh well pronouns and titles are different

Starting point is 00:19:48 i think that's an important thing to recognize is getting someone's name right matters that's an important part of treating them as a human being so having someone's name right is there but actually having a note on their records about pronouns is really useful because there's a lot of talking about people in the third person in a medical setting you will talk to other professionals who are working with that person and even if that person isn't the room it isn't in the room you should be using the pronouns that are right for that person is there a place on the records where we can say these are the pronouns that we use for this individual not to my knowledge not when I was in the NHS um but it might have changed I left in

Starting point is 00:20:33 April 2021 so it might have changed since then but to my knowledge there wasn't at that time but I would hope there will be if there isn't already. But yeah, I think if, you know, I spend a lot of time talking with aspiring psychologists, and the way that I would say this is I would say, when I am talking to a client, I will say, when I'm not with you, for example, when I'm talking in supervision, I will make sure that I always use your preferred pronoun of they and them, just so we're making those processes more transparent but also respectful yeah yeah very much yes and language goes further than that doesn't it yeah there will be people who have encountered the argument that's come out in the

Starting point is 00:21:18 last few years about expanding the language that we use in the services we offer the general public. As an example, we've got the breastfeeding and chestfeeding conversation and the fact that some trusts in the last five or so years have started to release information to their service users that talks about breastfeeding and chestfeeding or talks about the gestational parent as a way of making sure that people who are maybe non-binary or trans men who are going through pregnancy and having children

Starting point is 00:21:54 are included in the services and are meant to feel safe and included and heard and respected within those services and we've had a lot of backlash from that as well. And that is quite a challenging one because that backlash and that argument is happening all the way up to the very top levels of decision making within all kinds of trusts and organisations and educational establishments. Those conversations are going on on and I think this is where it's it's it's appropriate to talk about this gender critical movement there is a section of the population section of all these organizations that are very against that evolution into more inclusive language based on the idea that we're actually in some way

Starting point is 00:22:46 excluding women or removing rights from women by taking these inclusive steps and I understand where those worries come from because people have said that I have encountered many people who say they've told us we can't use the word breastfeeding anymore we can't talk about ourselves as women we you know can't talk about pregnant women we have to talk about pregnant people I've heard all of those things what's really interesting is that they said they said that we can't which means I always get to go back and say who said that oh they did who say who's actually's they? Who's actually said that those arguments have been put forward by a very small but very committed anti-trans movement also sometimes

Starting point is 00:23:52 referred to as the gender critical movement who ultimately are pitching two different marginalized groups against each other or women versus trans people whilst that infighting is going on use the right language don't use the right language someone up there is doing very well and the fact that they're getting away with not actually delivering brilliantly to both groups of people and the argument is focused elsewhere but it's about offering choice to the patient or the client isn't it so i identify as a woman and i think of these as my breasts and I use them to breastfeed my child and if someone who's been trying to support me in breastfeeding my children had been talking about it as chest feeding I would say well I identify as a woman

Starting point is 00:24:36 and these are my breasts so I'm happy to to call this breastfeeding but it's about knowing that that whatever I want to call them or the process is okay and encouraged by whoever I'm speaking with yeah and I think that is the point there is a fear that rights are being taken away language is being taken away identities are being taken away and that's not the case we are simply adding so you won't find literature that talks about chest feeding only you will talk find literature that talks about breastfeeding and chest feeding you won't find literature that talks about chest feeding only. You will find literature that talks about breastfeeding and chest feeding. You won't find literature that only talks about gestational parents. They will reference all aspects of being a gestational parent because everybody needs

Starting point is 00:25:20 to be included in that rhetoric. It's like, the way I sort of reflect on it is imagine we have leaflets for our services and then we recognize that those leaflets are no use to our blind and visually impaired patients because they can't see them so we produce a braille version. We don't then stop producing the regular printed version and only make the braille one available. We simply add. We add so that we can include more people. And that's what we're doing by broadening the use of language when it comes to gender, is we are recognizing

Starting point is 00:25:51 that what we've got works brilliantly for the majority, let's keep that, but let's recognize it's not quite working well enough and add stuff in to fill the gap. That's what we're doing when we're saying, let's include different language in our conversations here. We're simply making, we're recognizing that it doesn't fit everybody and we want to make it fit everybody. People aren't going to access a service if they see the headline and it doesn't include them and that's where the problems lie because we know

Starting point is 00:26:19 that trans people have, are one of the groups that are least accessing services because they're afraid because they've had too many experiences where they have been excluded where they have been challenged in ways that are incredibly damaging to them I totally agree I totally agree and I know that you saw another niche in the market recently for thinking about diversity and inclusion and having very important conversations whilst also seeing yourself and other people being represented in just a standard thing like playing a card game. And that's another reason I wanted to talk to you, G. Could you tell us a little bit about your exciting new project, please? Absolutely. We had an accident where we created a new version of the Happy Families card game.

Starting point is 00:27:12 So I don't know if you've played the traditional Happy Families card game. I have, I have, as a child, not for a long time. Yeah, well, it's essentially like Go Fish. You have to collect all the members of a particular group and then once you've collected all of them, you've got those ones and the person who collects the most all the members of a particular group and then once you've collected all of them you've got those ones and the person who collects the most by the end of the game is the winner it's a fairly simple card game that's been played well since 1851 in fact

Starting point is 00:27:33 when it was first created because i miss the baker family and stuff like that is that the baker family the butcher family so the original one had all these families that they're all white, they're all a husband, a wife, a son and a daughter, Mr, Mrs, Miss and Master and the surname is the father's profession. So it's based very much on these traditional notions of what families looked like back in the 1850s and we know that families don't look like that anymore. Occasionally they do, but families are way, way more diverse than that. And because of the business that I have, where I'm working with people with their branding and creating resources for them to market themselves and create products, one of the things I wanted to make available to people they were asking me can you help me make a deck of cards could be prompt cards or

Starting point is 00:28:28 all kinds of different types of cars that people want to use within their businesses to help deliver what they do so I started looking into that and I found somebody brilliant LGBTQ printer up in Yorkshire and the queer own print company and we figured out a way to print cards. I thought, you know what, we'll do a test. And I had a look around and realised that there wasn't a version of Happy Families that was anything like representational of what modern families look like. And we ourselves are a blended family. We're a queer family.

Starting point is 00:29:00 We have non-binary family members. We're, you know, within our extended family, we're certainly not all white, we're a diverse bunch, as are probably most families. And so we created a new version of it that is full of different combinations of groups of people who call themselves families. We've got single parent families, we've got blended families, we've got family without children, we've got blended families, we've got family without children, we've got grandparents, we've got multi-generational stuff going on, we've got pets in there. We just mixed it up and

Starting point is 00:29:34 we did this for fun. We've got a hundred boxes printed thinking over the next year we'll sell them to our friends and our friends' friends and that'll be lovely. And it's kind of blown up. so we're now on our third big print run and um we're starting out going to one of the big games expos next year and we have accidentally created an inclusive games production company in an entirely unexpected way which is lovely but it's um it wasn't something that we planned. Really lovely, but really important. And well, well done to you. There it is, happy families. But it's, I really, you know, I reached out to you, partly because of this, because when I was working in CAM services, which stands for Children Ad mental health services um we often you know play

Starting point is 00:30:26 games with um children and young people whilst we're kind of you know getting to know each other but also because sometimes some people find it really difficult to to talk one-on-one and so you're kind of busy yourself and be doing things but it's a really nice opportunity actually this card game to do something that feels inclusive and respectful but also helps many of the people who might be in our services to feel heard and understood and you know whether it's because of issues with gender and diversity or pronouns or you know ability or you know whether their family are you know their birth family it provokes lots of really important conversations that might well like i said be partly part of the reasons why we're actually

Starting point is 00:31:11 seeing them in the service to begin with yeah very much so and i think this is one of the things or the biggest piece of feedback we've had from people has been we don't we don't define the family we simply say here's a group of people and for the purposes of this game they are a family. We don't know how many of those characters are trans or how many of them speak English or how many of them have hidden disabilities. We simply don't know and that's the point. We don't know if the family that has three adults in it is a blended family, are they a polyamorous family, are they a group of friends who are collectively raising a child? We don't know. We don't need to know. And that's the whole point

Starting point is 00:31:53 is families can look like all kinds of things, they don't need to tick any particular boxes in order to be validly a family. And it comes down to representation. Particularly in young people, if you don't see yourself represented in the world around you, then you always will start to question, why? What's wrong with me? Why am I not there? Why am I so different? And little things like this help to alleviate that a bit and just show that all families go all families are valid and all families are okay and what we found has been brilliant is the way that people have jumped on this as a way to start having those conversations so

Starting point is 00:32:34 hey let's play a game but you know by the end of the game you'll be having a conversation that's along the lines of so so do you think that person is is in a relationship with that person or do you think that person is in a relationship with that person? Or do you think these families might live next to each other? And how would that work? And you get to start those easy conversations, open conversations, without putting anyone on the spot. Important conversations to have.

Starting point is 00:32:58 Show us the pack again up to the camera so people know what they're looking for, G. It's that. At the moment, the happy uh it's the business we've set up is the rainbow family circus so it's rainbowfamilycircus.co.uk and you'll find all the information about the game and be able to buy it on there but we've got you know we've got a single dad family or a masculine presenting person and we have mixed race families we've got um a two dad family we've got two mom family we've got an adult only family or maybe one of them's a teenager or we don't know maybe they're siblings we don't know we don't need to know yeah they do have a very cool power of them

Starting point is 00:33:41 it's stay curious isn't it and you know, give people permission to be who they are and help facilitate conversations, you know, in an open, non-judgmental space. So thank you so much for your time. I feel like I could have spoken to you all day about so many different topics. But, yeah, I will make sure that I put details about you and your social handles in the show notes. And of course, tag you in this podcast as well. And the wonderful the wonderful Happy Families game.

Starting point is 00:34:14 So thank you so much for your time and for so richly and generously spreading your knowledge with with our audience. You're very welcome. Can I leave you with one thing? Please do. One of the things you said right at the start of this conversation was recognising that sometimes people have a fear of getting things wrong. And I just want to tell them that that's okay. You will get things wrong. I get things wrong. We all get things wrong. If you inadvertently misgender somebody or use the incorrect name or title there's a really easy answer you just say oh I'm sorry I meant the right one and you move on that's the really key thing acknowledge it and move on that's all you

Starting point is 00:34:59 need to do you will get it wrong I misgender myself sometimes it's okay to get it wrong as long as you put it right. Yeah, absolutely. And I think there's been a very high profile case in the palace recently of someone not backing down and apologising and, you know, actually really offending somebody about their about their heritage. And I think there can be a lot to be said, but just saying, you know, I'm sorry, I misunderstood. I got it all wrong and I'm really sorry. But, yeah, this is just, you know, give people mission to be human and to be who they are and know that we can't get everything right all the time. But if we do it with the best of intentions, hopefully, and apologize when we do get it wrong, we'll do more good than harm. We will, indeed. Thank you so much for your time gee thank you it's been a real pleasure wow wasn't that amazing gee is incredible um and i certainly learned a lot there so will you be changing um your socials to say what your preferred gender pronouns are.

Starting point is 00:36:07 Is that something you could consider doing? I absolutely am going to be doing that in future. So I will be changing my overlay to tweak it to say she and her. So, yeah, thank you for that important conversation, G. Hope you found that useful. Please do come along and discuss it on the Aspiring Psychologist Community free Facebook page. As promised, there is an exclusive competition. I have bought two copies of the Happy Families Progress Edition. That's them shaking card games that we discussed in the episode

Starting point is 00:36:49 i'm going to give both of those away one over on linkedin and one over on instagram so do come and connect with me on both of those platforms i am dr marian Marianne Trent in both places. And the competition will run until midnight on Monday, the 2nd of January 2023. So yeah, come along, take part. I don't quite know what the details of the competition are going to be yet, but I will by the time you listen to this. So you've got a week, but don't wait. Do it today because I will post a copy. If you're the winner on Instagram or you're the winner on LinkedIn, I'll post those to you in the UK. So, yeah, G kindly said that she was happy for me to to run the competition. So I bought those. So I bought those along with my own version. So I do actually have three.

Starting point is 00:37:42 I'm going to keep one and play those with my children but yeah if you would like to have a copy for your children and families service or for your own private practice working with children and young people or just to play with your family then please do swing over to LinkedIn or Instagram or both. You can enter on both platforms. Yeah, and I will be delighted to post those to you if you are the winner. We'll get my lucky prize wheel wheeling around again. So yeah, thank you so much for listening. Hope you found it useful. And yeah, good luck if you do decide to enter. Thanks for listening and I will look forward to catching up with you for our next episode that lands with you from 6am on Monday. Thanks for being part of my world and On the way to getting qualified

Starting point is 00:38:47 So many tips and lessons to learn from So many things that you can try The Aspiring Psychologist Collective Inspiring Psychologist Collective If you're looking to become a psychologist Then let this be your guide With this podcast at your side You'll be on your way to being qualified It's the Aspiring Psychologist Podcast

Starting point is 00:39:33 With Dr. Marianne Trent My name's Jana and I'm a trainee psychological well-being practitioner. I read the Clinical Psychologist Collective book. I found it really interesting about all the different stories and how people got to become a clinical psychologist. It just amazed me how many different routes there are to get there and there's no perfect way to become one and this kind of filled me with confidence that no I'm not doing it wrong and put less pressure on myself. So if you're feeling a bit uneasy about becoming a clinical psychologist I'd definitely recommend this just to put yourself at ease and everything will be okay.

Starting point is 00:40:33 But trust me you will not put the book down once you start.

The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast - Gender, diversity & inclusion with G Sabini-Roberts

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