The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast - Getting started in research, parental mental health & infant nutrition - with Prof Amy Brown

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hi there, it's Marianne here. Before we dive into today's episode, I want to quickly let you know about something exciting that's happening right now. If you've ever wondered how to create income that works for you, rather than constantly trading your time for money, then you'll love the Race to Recurring Revenue Challenge with my business mentor, Lisa Johnson. This challenge is designed to help you build sustainable income streams. And whether you're an aspiring psychologist, a mental health professional, or in a completely different field,

Starting point is 00:00:32 the principles can work for you. There are also wonderful prizes to be won directly by Lisa herself. And if you join the challenge by my link, you can be in with a chance of winning a one-to-one hours coaching with me, Dr. Marianne Trent. Do you want to know more? Of course you do. Head to my link tree, Dr. Marianne Trent, or check out my social media channels, or send me a quick DM and I'll get you all the details. Right, let's get on with today's episode. If you're looking to become a psychologist, then let this be your guide. episode. with Dr. Mary Andrews Hi, welcome along to the Aspiring Psychologist podcast.

Starting point is 00:01:33 It's really important when we're working with people as aspiring psychologists or beyond that we understand just how important the early stages of life are and the early stages of bonding and attachment and nurturance between caregivers and newborns and someone who has specialised in this over recent years is Professor Amy Brown. She's a psychologist, an author, a researcher. She specializes in researching infant feeding, maternal mental health and public health. She has published a number of books on this topic as well, and all of them are just wonderful. I hope that you will find this episode to be really useful in helping you think about any key and pertinent issues around this key stage of development and how and why it's important for us to understand this theory

Starting point is 00:02:33 and this practice as we go through our career in psychology. So I just want to welcome along Professor Amy Brown who is an all-round research genius in my eyes. Welcome along, Amy. Thank you for having me. You're more than welcome. So I thought it might be useful for us to think a little bit about your journey with research. And also feel free to say what you do currently as well. Oh, gosh. currently as well? Oh gosh, so I'm a Professor of Child Public Health at Swansea University

Starting point is 00:03:05 where actually I've been since my undergraduate. I'm one of those very lucky researchers who did their undergraduate, their master's, their PhD at the same university and also then managed to get several jobs at the university. So it is possible, You don't necessarily have to move around if anybody tells you that. So I run a research centre. I run a master's programme. I have numerous PhD students and different research projects. And then I also did quite a lot of writing in terms of media articles and engagement with the media. I run a website and I've written, I think it's 10 books. I've actually lost track at this stage. So I think it's 10, all about the research that I do, but trying to make it accessible for those who read it. So my research is into early parenting

Starting point is 00:03:59 experiences and birth and pregnancy and feeding babies and mental health in particular. And it's about writing guides for parents, health professionals, and just those people who work in that area. I just want to say thank you, really, because I think your books are incredible. You know, I first picked up Breastfeeding Uncovered when I was feeding my eldest, who's now eight and a half. And I just never read anything like it before you know it was on my side it was humorous and it was evidence-based you know you're really funny I think I think that I think that helps you know and it also you know inspired me to think about putting my own books together to get my you know words out there and so I just think you I just think you're incredible

Starting point is 00:04:46 Amy. Thank you it's about that gap that I think sometimes you have practitioners and writers who are outside academia and clinical practice and they write books in a certain way and then you have sort of academics and practitioners who might be very, very evidence based. And it it tends to be excellent. It's really, you know, research driven, but it's more challenging to read as a textbook or, you know, a seminal text on a subject. So it's what I try to do is kind of bridge that gap so that it's really evidence basedbased and it's supported by lots of references and research but you can sit on the sofa on a Sunday evening and read it or you can download it on Audible and take it on your dog walk with you want it to be accessible really I think that's the key word in it all and it really is you do it effortlessly you know I have said before that breastfeeding uncovered is one of my favourite books on any topic, not even just kind of infant nutrition.

Starting point is 00:05:48 But, you know, what you do really works and it really matters. Actually, your first year of parenting book, I think, should be given out to people with, you know, with their Emma's diary or whatever, you know, because it's so useful. And actually, I would have been much kinder on myself as a parent had I read it. So I was definitely in in the attachment parenting camp and I read it. Is it a lovely book by a doctor? Is it doctors? His stuff felt like real real sort of soul food as a parent. But actually, yours is so much more compassionate. And, you know know I just really like I just really like it I even like the yellow pages in it like so you know what you do what you do

Starting point is 00:06:32 matters and you're somehow you know you're doing it you're bridging that gap between textbook and freaking useful stuff I think it's I think I to myself. I think I write what I needed 15 years ago. And I know what new parents need, because I've been there three times. And I think that when you have some distance from that, you start being able to be more open. So you can admit that things were really tough, or that some days you really didn't like it or you could admit all those thoughts you had in your head about running away and never coming back and that parents often say to me on social media it's like it's like how do you know this about me like it's some sort of magic and it's like no no you you just basically are me but sort of 10-15 years behind me that's all definitely definitely we've all had those moments of hiding as we go and eat something

Starting point is 00:07:26 to hide from our children to like have a moment to decompress and just feeling like you know who's who's let me be the grown-up with these children you know who said I can do this because I think we need a recount here how did you get started in so I love that you actually you know our dads told us growing up there was no such thing as a job for life these days but you are you're disproving that certainly in Swansea how did you get started in academia oh gosh right so when I was an undergraduate student like many psychology students I wanted to be a clinical psychologist and it's almost a funny story it's kind of in hindsight that I think you end up where you're meant to be so I really wanted to be a clinical psychologist but I'm also a person who really absorbs other people's emotions

Starting point is 00:08:21 really really strongly so I get quite distressed if friends are distressed. You know, I watch TV and I'm feeling everything. And I thought, OK, right, hang on. I don't think you're going to be able to cope with clinical psychology. You're just going to be a mess the whole time. So I thought I'd go into that really non-emotive field of research. And I kind of started on the edges of nutrition research. So I was really interested in childhood nutrition and mental health, kind of more broadly. But I was going to do my PhD on, I can't even remember what it was meant to be on though. I think it was feeding older children. So it's older children's diet around emotional feeding practices so the idea

Starting point is 00:09:05 that you know not bribing children with food not rewarding them with food like all good plans um about a week into that phd i realized that i was pregnant with my first baby and this you know this is a whole other kind of theme of this you know as people told me then oh that's the end of your career in academia are you going to come back to it you're never going to manage with one baby so I had three instead just to prove them wrong but I became fascinated by the experience of maternity care so infant feeding in particular because all the way through pregnancy people kept telling me that breastfeeding was really, really important and you must do it. And it was, you know, really important for the baby and

Starting point is 00:09:50 yourself. And then I had that baby and I realised that actually a lot of the support and care around feeding your baby and your own mental health was missing. And I kept meeting other mothers like you do when you've you've got a baby you go to the baby group and when they saw me breastfeeding they would always tell me their story and it was usually something along the lines of they really wanted to but their baby fed too much or they couldn't get the support they needed and it was like they kept having to justify but there were all these myths around feeding so they keep telling me oh I couldn't feed because of x and I think well that's not you know with the right support you might have been able to to feed them so I just became fascinated in the whole issue of

Starting point is 00:10:39 barriers to breastfeeding and the lack of support and then subsequently the impact upon mental health which is where we come full circle because I've ended up doing so much research now into the grief and the trauma and the increased risk of postnatal depression that comes alongside not being able to meet your own feeding goals so not being able to breastfeed for as long as you wanted to experience lots of pain and difficulty. And of course, the level of emotion and grief and just distress that goes alongside all of that is immense. So, you know, you have 20 year old me deciding, oh, no, we can't possibly be a clinical psychologist because there's just too much emotion and distress involved and yeah no you can't escape from what you're meant to be doing it's basically the lesson of all of that your path found you yeah you're doing you're doing

Starting point is 00:11:37 such worthwhile and worthy work but also what interested in what you said is is something that I experienced a lot in in my burgeoning career and probably still now, too. But it's what unhelpful messages people give you about yourself along the journey. You know, you couldn't possibly do that and you won't do that and you'll never get to there. And perhaps you should try a bit, you know, aim a bit lower. And that's not that useful, is it? No, it's it's a complete red rag to a bull for me, to be honest. As soon as somebody tells me I can't do anything, I'm going to do it. And I'm going to do it 10 times more of what you just told me I can't do. But I was told that so many times. I mean, my PhD supervisors were brilliantly

Starting point is 00:12:18 supportive, but people around me told me my career was over and I'd never succeed now. And isn't it a shame because I was doing such good PhD work, but I had, you know, I would say I had two and a half babies during my PhD because I was about 20 weeks pregnant at Viva. I just got the corrections in before he was born. And, you know, if anybody is reading this as a PhD student, I actually found that it worked really well, because, well, for my type of PhD anyway, because A, I was conducting research with families, so it actually gave me more accessibility and more credibility.

Starting point is 00:12:58 But also, I could just fit it around them. I didn't have to be in an office job nine till five every day. so it was actually a one of the easier times in my opinion to actually have them at that point they certainly never stopped me and of course once you have children you you don't really get the option to just stop and not you know carry on you you have to keep working to support them and that's essentially what I did. I just kept going. I wish I could say there was some big strategy with all of this, but it was just persistence, I think, alongside luck, you know, positions coming up at the right time,

Starting point is 00:13:35 being able to have the skills of writing easily. So I had lots of publications. So I was getting research positions and then academic posts. But they certainly never stopped me. They helped. I don't think I'd have the career that I have without them, both through the drive to keep going and prove everybody wrong, make sure that they were supported, but also just the huge understanding and access to the area that I was researching. Life happens whilst you're waiting for your psychology career to start doesn't it but actually what you're saying is it really makes your career as well you know I was I remember being in CAMHS placements and things and thinking oh they're gonna say have you got any children and I'm gonna be like no um and I but I definitely

Starting point is 00:14:23 feel since becoming a mother it's broadened my ability to connect with others and to understand you know I was already pretty much an empath anyway but I really feel that you know becoming a parent and then losing a parent as well has just helped me on so many levels and actually I don't spend all of the sessions crying so you know we do all right we do all right and it sounds yeah it sounds like you actually you know absolutely made hay whilst the sun shone as you were developing your career. Yeah and it just gave me insight into what was missing from a research perspective that I was having these experiences and at the same time I could see the gaps in the literature. And I just I think I was kind of riding a wave at the time that we're talking back 2005, 2006 here.

Starting point is 00:15:14 So my eldest is nearly 16. And at the time, there was a kind of gap in the early parenting, midwiferyery infant feeding literature around the psychology of all of this so there was great research around you know breastfeeding from a health professional perspective and you know supporting mothers so in terms of peer support and professional support there was less around some of the core areas of psychology. And it was just kind of really bringing mental health into it. So although there was research around postnatal depression and feeding experiences, there were gaps that I could explore in more depth and take advantage of, is the wrong word, but take advantage of from a research perspective in filling some of those gaps particularly around the lasting emotional impact of not being able to breastfeed and we're taking that further now looking at the emotional experiences and mental health impacts of

Starting point is 00:16:17 receiving donor milk if your baby is premature or unwell so there's there's so much still to be done and it's just a really good overlap of psychology with that really early parenting experiences it really is and actually it raises really valid and important points you know this feeding trauma it's a thing and actually so many of the people i've worked with in adult mental health services women they you know they recount when they were trying to feed their baby and nobody's ever thought to ask them a question but when you look at postnatal depression and you look at how it developed so often it's about that you know you're taking really exhausted women you're giving them false information you're you know shoehorning them to kind of top up their baby and to give food that

Starting point is 00:17:05 they might not want to give and they're not allowing mothers to develop their own trust in their ability to feed and this you know this isn't supposed to be an episode about breast is best it's not it's about being informed isn't it and actually being able to make choices and having professionals that are supporting you and giving you evidence-based advice and guidance. Yeah and it is about listening to women as well. Whenever I've done research around mental health and infant feeding experiences it's split into two parts so it's about the actual infant feeding experience and not being able to feed your baby in the way you wanted to but then it's about the dismissal and people not listening once that has happened so one of the big issues across birth and early parenting is the tendency for people to say that it doesn't

Starting point is 00:17:54 matter so usually it comes from a good place so it's things like after a difficult birth people will say well look your baby's healthy they're here it's fine and of course you want that but it's completely ignoring the the trauma that you've just been through as if you don't matter and with feeding babies if you're somebody who really wanted to breastfeed and it didn't work out and that's because you weren't supported and you couldn't do what you were promised that would happen then of course you're going to have grief around that you're going to have all sorts of emotions and when people then just tell you it doesn't matter it's it's so dismissive and it's not a judgment of

Starting point is 00:18:37 using formula and you're not necessarily unhappy about using formula you can be very happy that your baby's fed and thriving but it still matters to you and when that's dismissed then I think that's what sets up this long-term emotional impact because you don't get a chance to process it and you're told it doesn't matter so you just bury it down and of course it comes out at later stages it's that constant invalidation whilst actually trying to be quite helpful in the process of accidentally invalidating someone and I think that's really useful stuff for our audience to hold on to you know to not be too quick to smooth things over and say it's all fine because look baby's baby's brilliantly healthy and look what a good job you did you know still still doing

Starting point is 00:19:21 what you needed to do to get your baby you know healthy and well but um yeah this in terms of it sounds like you've done some really wonderful user-led research but it was you know it was stuff you recognized needed to happen but has led to really brilliant outcomes have you got any advice for how other aspiring psychologists might be able to kickstart their own research efforts? I think it's around just if you've got a passion for something never giving up and just taking those first steps to actually get it done I know that sounds you know kind of simplistic but don't let anybody stop you or tell you that that research area doesn't matter That's one of the other unhelpful messages that I've had along the way is that at least two very senior academics, not at my university, but at different universities, told me that if I wanted to progress,

Starting point is 00:20:17 if I wanted a permanent academic post, if I ever wanted to be a professor in the future, I had to stop focusing on this niche area of infant feeding and early parenting and do something far broader and I thought no I don't you're daft go away Mo's been slightly less polite version than that but you know they again please don't tell me what I can't do because that's just going to encourage me to do it but if you think something is important it's it's worth starting with with that small scale research and it will build. You've got to start somewhere. And that first piece of research is going to be a learning experience. It's going to have mistakes in it. That's just normal. That's a part of research.

Starting point is 00:21:01 But it's about building up that overall picture over time and what might just be a small study and you think isn't might not be fascinating to the wider world probably is fascinating to somebody else and they'll see it and they'll build on that and collaborations take time but it's planting those first seeds I guess and having the confidence to take that first step and say this is important stuff can anyone do it Amy so if people are listening and thinking I kind of thought I needed like a research supervisor or a real grown-up to help me through this process or can anyone kind of look to do you know research ethics and get started and do something that's interesting and useful yeah I don't know about this grown-up stuff I haven't met any to be honest I think if we wait around for a grown-up

Starting point is 00:21:49 we're going to be waiting a long time I think you know research ethics is is really important so it's around working out where you're going to get permission from a ethics committee it's worth contacting if you're working out in clinical practice and you can see an academic working at a university email them get in touch with them and say I've just got this really interesting idea because we love collaborations particularly with people who are working out they're in practice you know I'm not going to say I sit in an ivory tower because I don't I work with you know talk to parents via social media all the time but I'm not working in practice I don't have that experience so it's about recognizing the value of what you do have and working in collaboration if you haven't got

Starting point is 00:22:35 access to an ethics committee so please do reach out yeah look at such wonderful advice put it into google scholar and see who's doing research vaguely in your area and get in touch with them that's honestly that is like golden advice because i think when you're sort of going down a route where you're doing like the you know you're doing the relevant experience um section of your cv it can feel like well no one's really doing any research in this department so i can't really tick that part of my CV off right now. But actually, you can because you can do stuff outside of that or you can do it in parallel. Absolutely. Or contact a university that has a research team in your area that you're passionate about and see if you can do some research, you know, as an honorary research assistant

Starting point is 00:23:25 alongside them. You know, I can't say that everybody will always say yes, but certainly we have people who we employ on short-term research contracts to do a little bit of research around their training and you then have, you know access to all the the research learning and knowledge that goes alongside it um ask if you can do a placement on a a research project you know they're just get in contact and ask because you know that's the beginning of the conversation it really is and you know you never know the answer might well be yes um and you know that can be really useful for you but also the populations that you're researching people are gonna love what you've what you've said today amy it's gonna really boost people's confidence you know because

Starting point is 00:24:19 when you're applying for whatever branch of psychology is that you're aspiring to you know you get the feedback form um i don't know if you ever have got around to applying for whatever branch of psychology it is that you're aspiring to, you know, you get the feedback form. I don't know if you ever got around to applying for anything like for clinical, but you get it broken down into what's wrong about you. You know, why your application didn't make, you know, more. So it's more varied clinical experience, more relevant clinical experience. Academic stuff needs strengthening. And so often people are saying it's the academic one actually and I don't feel I don't know where to begin so people will really really find your words so incredibly useful today thank you oh good let me please do tell us some more about your your

Starting point is 00:24:57 book babies um and you know what what areas you cover and how people can get hold of copies? I've got to remember what they are now. We started with Brass Feeding Uncovered back in 2016, which has just had an update because so much has gone on in the area in the last five years. And there's another story about perseverance with that as well, because I was initially in discussions with another publishing company to write that. And they actually approached me and asked me to propose this book. But when they took it to the higher levels, their kind of boss person turned around and said, no one's going to read a book on that. It's not going to sell. So of course, they had to come back to me and say, sorry, we can't

Starting point is 00:25:41 publish your book. And you know, I had to write, write you know no one's ever gonna I'm never gonna write a book I can't write and no one's ever gonna publish me um thankfully I pulled myself together after a few days and resubmitted it to Pinter and Martin who said yeah sure we'll publish that great so that was the start of that and it's just an important lesson again in in rejection is a normal part I think kind of a key message throughout academia and through psychologist training is you are going to get rejected it's how you deal with it that matters it's not a criticism of you it's just the system so from there so breastfeeding and covered is all about the barriers that women face when they're breastfeeding from a physical, psychological, social, economic level. Then it was why starting solids matters.

Starting point is 00:26:32 So it's around all the research evidence and guidance around introducing solids to babies. So it's again, it's bringing some research evidence rather than myths to this area. From then, it was positive breastfeeding, which is a guide to breastfeeding. So something that was slightly out of my comfort zone at the time, it was kind of writing a book that was full of evidence based practical advice. So turning the evidence into practical innovations or support for parents, but I had to back off the references, which I'm still never very comfortable with. You know, the researcher and student in me has to reference every line. But of course, you can't do that with a book directly for parents. Although, you know, they don't need thousands and thousands of references.

Starting point is 00:27:19 They need a hug. Oh, gosh, what was next um informed is best so informed is best came about after yet another argument on the internet about how research evidence was being used incorrectly and myths flying about so it's it's aimed at parents and health professionals and anybody who wants to know more about understanding research, really, and all the tricks that the media play, and the biases in funding, and how basically we need to read behind the lines when we look at media headlines and research studies. We have Breastfeeding, Grief, and Trauma, which was the book that I was talking about earlier, which is, you know, just validating women's experiences around not being

Starting point is 00:28:06 able to breastfeed and offering some ideas for how you can get more support with that what's next I think that's the first year of parenting book so let's talk about the first year of parenting which is it's a big guide but it's it's meant to be a book that you dip in and out of so it's it's basically all the psychology really of early parenting so looking after yourself your mental health your physical recovery all the pressures of becoming a parent relationships going back to work kind of a guide there's a section in there about um but babies in uh early neonatal units as well isn't there yes yeah so what happens you know supporting you if your baby's in neonatal care or has a disability or you know just your circumstances have changed in any way we've got sections for single parents

Starting point is 00:28:59 um it's got everything in there i'll guide to that first year then we have oh a guide to supporting breastfeeding for the medical profession which is actually aimed at medical professionals and it's a edited textbook so it's got just lots of great authors in it all providing lots of information it was aimed at medics due to the gap in the research training around breastfeeding and infant feeding that many doctors don't actually have much training around it. So we were just trying to provide an evidence based guide. What are we up to? We then have let's talk about feeding your baby, which is a shorter book, which is a shorter guide to breastfeeding formula feeding and introducing solids i'm sure i've missed one here anyway then we have the one you get the updated breastfeeding uncovered and then we've got the newest one which is covid babies which is looking at all the

Starting point is 00:29:59 research evidence for the impact that the pandemic and lockdowns has had upon pregnancy and birth and early parenting and just really helping validate experiences during this time because it's been so so tough yet lots of parents have felt that they can't complain because obviously we're in a global crisis and pandemic but it's really about calling for more support now and support services to help parents process what they've been through and what they've missed out on and changes to the care that they might have had I think that's it well done because honestly there I've read three out of three out of the nine but I'm definitely going to grab me a code of babies but I'm sorry um but you know it's important stuff and you're doing it so well and I recommend you so often

Starting point is 00:30:48 and you know I'm sorry for fangirling all over you um in this podcast episode but you know um yeah you're doing really good stuff what's the best way or multiple ways that people can get hold of copies of your books um so I have a website um professor amy brown.co.uk novel uh website there but it's got everything on there so it's got well i'm trying to put all copies of my research articles on there but that's that's taking a while because there are over a hundred of them and i you know i get i wander off in the middle of the task um i've got loads of blog articles I've written. I've got videos to watch of presentations that I've done. And then there's just a little shop on there where you can buy signed copies and packages of books. I should say as well that Lindsay Hookway and I have got a new

Starting point is 00:31:40 book coming out towards the end of March, which is actually putting together all our experience of writing books and writing for the public. So look out for that one as well, because if you're interested in writing and communicating and aren't sure where to start, it's some guidance around the practicalities, but also dealing with criticism and imposter syndrome and rejection and all those things that we go through so we're hoping that will be really useful as well so useful absolutely and it might well be we'll discuss when to schedule this at this episode but if it would be useful to schedule this one around when that's uh when that's going to be published then we can absolutely do that but you know you've

Starting point is 00:32:25 been such an inspiration to talk to you've you've never think i thought you would be um but you know you you know you're you are doing what so many people um would would be striving to do and you've given them some really tangible steps for how to do it but also you know for anyone working with any human during their aspiring psychology journey you've given us some really useful pointers to consider and the impact that has on them and their ability to to be a parent or a child for that matter in in the world right now thank you i think my main message is just don't give up just keep going it's tough yeah keep going yeah thank you so much for your time Amy thank you so much for listening um please do come and connect with me on my socials

Starting point is 00:33:16 linkedin dr marianne trent youtube good thinking psychological services facebook good thinking Thinking Psychological Services, Facebook Good Thinking Psychological Services, Twitter Good Thinking PS1 and Instagram Dr. Marianne Trent. Thank you again for being part of my world and for listening right to the end. We've just got a little bit coming up about the Compassionate Q&A series and then you can enjoy the jingle. Take care. And like I said, if you'd like to get involved with your own story for the Aspiring Psychologist Collective, then do check out the details in the show notes for how you can request more information. But if you head to my website, which is goodthinkingpsychology.co.uk and then head to my books there will be information there for you being well supported during any interview season is so important I have therefore

Starting point is 00:34:18 planned some compassionate question and answer support sessions for you. You are absolutely welcome to come along to all of them. Some of them, none of them. No need to book. And here are the dates for you. Monday, the 28th of February from 7.30pm. Monday, the 21st of March, 7.30pm. Monday, the 4th of April, 7.30pm. And Monday, the 9th of May, 7.30pm.

Starting point is 00:34:51 And they will all be live streaming via my socials, which includes Twitter, YouTube, LinkedIn and Facebook. So you can absolutely pick your favourite platform and they'll all be available on replay as well. Hope you find it so useful and I will look forward to catching up with some of you then. Take care. With this podcast that you'll see, you'll be on your way to being qualified. It's the Aspiring Psychologist podcast with Dr. Marianne Trent. My name's Jana and I'm a trainee psychological well-being practitioner. I read the Clinical Psychologist Collective book. I found it really interesting about all the different stories there are to get there and there's no

Starting point is 00:36:07 perfect way to become one and this kind of filled me of confidence that no I'm not doing it wrong and put less pressure on myself so if you're feeling a bit uneasy about becoming a clinical psychologist I definitely recommend this just to put yourself at ease and everything will be okay but trust me you will not put the book down once you start.

The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast - Getting started in research, parental mental health & infant nutrition - with Prof Amy Brown

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