The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast - How to Reduce Suicide in Men - Male Mental Health

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hi there, it's Marianne here. Before we dive into today's episode, I want to quickly let you know about something exciting that's happening right now. If you've ever wondered how to create income that works for you, rather than constantly trading your time for money, then you'll love the Race to Recurring Revenue Challenge with my business mentor, Lisa Johnson. This challenge is designed to help you build sustainable income streams. And whether you're an aspiring psychologist, a mental health professional, or in a completely different field,

Starting point is 00:00:32 the principles can work for you. There are also wonderful prizes to be won directly by Lisa herself. And if you join the challenge by my link, you can be in with a chance of winning a one-to-one hours coaching with me, Dr. Marianne Trent. Do you want to know more? Of course you do. Head to my link tree, Dr. Marianne Trent, or check out my social media channels, or send me a quick DM and I'll get you all the details. Right, let's get on with today's episode. 74% of all suicides in the UK are men. But why is this happening? And more importantly,

Starting point is 00:01:08 what can we do to change it? In this very special magazine style episode, I am joined by three people who can talk with us and help educate us about three very high risk areas for men. The first is Lee, an ex-marine who now works in the building trade. Our next is Sharon, a researcher and farmer's wife, who has a really good overview of farming life and farming community. And last but not least, I'm joined by Charlie, the CEO of Men's Sheds UK, whose organisation is all about transforming lives by giving men a safe space to get connected, feel supported and build meaningful connections. This episode is more than just about understanding the problem. It's about finding real, practical,

Starting point is 00:01:53 workable solutions for reducing suicidality in men. Whether you're directly affected or looking to support someone who is, I hope that you find this to be a crucially important conversation. Hi, welcome along to the Aspiring Psychologist podcast. I am Dr. Marianne Trent, a qualified clinical psychologist. Now in the UK, it is more common for women to be diagnosed with depression. And yet, of course, as our intro revealed, it is men who are higher in the suicide rates with 74% of suicides in the UK in 2022 being males. It's often discussed that there are certain industries that do seem to have a higher rate of suicides. So I really wanted to use this space to explore that, to empower you, to help you think about questions, to ask people that may be around you. And I think this is really important because sometimes we might feel like we don't have the necessary knowledge. We don't know

Starting point is 00:03:00 what to say. We don't want to say the wrong thing. So by watching this, hopefully this will help you feel like you are enough and you know enough to point somebody in the right direction and to instill a sense of hope. You may notice as this episode progresses, there's various different stages of Marianne because it's been recorded across the summer. One point I have a mole, then I have a bandage on my face, now I've got a wound. Stick with it and you'll get the flow of what was recorded when. These are really important conversations to have and I wanted to get our experts booked in and get these interviews recorded. I've previously chatted to Lee, not on the podcast, but in a social media conversation around about the pandemic time. He

Starting point is 00:03:46 is so brilliant and inspiring. I love chatting with Lee. So let's dive in. Let's meet him. And I will catch you on the other side of this. Hi, Lee. Welcome along to the podcast. Thanks for having me on, Marianne. I appreciate it. Thank you. I always love speaking with you and since we last spoke um you've had a change of your business you were previously working in fitness um and you from an ex-military background but you are now working um in quite a different area you've really taken control and you're doing something very different now aren't you what are you doing now yeah well basically yeah i went from being a raw marine to owning a boot camp fitness business

Starting point is 00:04:31 uh covid sort of saw the end of that um a bit of a long story but yeah covid was the end of the fitness business and i now find myself um operating a crane, installing steel beams for builders on building sites every day. So, yeah, a bit of a contrast from what I was doing before. Very different. I know from following you on socials and from our chat beforehand, this is really invigorating for you. You're really enjoying it. And you're a father, you're a father you're a husband and this is really helping to to help you do all the things you love to provide for your family but also your own mental health yeah that's it exactly um when the when the fitness business came to an end as you know it's a bit of a long story i know we're limited for time i'm sorry i'm going to do too much but yeah i've always been conscious of my my mental health i had a few

Starting point is 00:05:25 issues to say the least when i was a bit younger so since then i've always been you know really keen to prioritize my mental health and i understand that your job what you do for a living what you get up out of bed and go and do for eight hours a day, nine hours, sometimes more, can have a massive impact on your mental health. If you don't enjoy what you're doing, it can impact your mood and your energy. You go home, you take that mood and energy home with you, it then starts to impact your relationship, your parenting, your diet, and then all this has a bit of a snowball effect and it can be uh

Starting point is 00:06:07 obviously detrimental to say the least so yeah when i was looking for something to do after my fitness business i gave it a huge amount of thought and to be honest that was one of the main sort of priorities really is or was finding something that i I thought I'd be happy doing, I'd enjoy doing, so that I took home at the end of each working day a positive energy into my house. As you mentioned, I'm married. I've got a lovely wife. I've got four beautiful little kids.

Starting point is 00:06:38 And I didn't want to come home in a foul mood and let that foul mood affect everybody else. It's just something that, to is super super important yeah I think what I love about what you've done is that you know you've demonstrated that actually you can do a career change at whatever stage of your life you know I know that you had young twins at the time when this was happening as well and you're like well this is the right time for. And this is going to be giving me the chance to live my authentic self, you know, in my family and to have the kids grow up with a happy dad, really. That's what was important to me.

Starting point is 00:07:16 You know, don't get me wrong, I love my dad to bits. He was a brilliant dad and he worked so, so hard to provide for me and my sister and put a roof over our heads, put food on the table. But I didn't know at the time, but looking back, I understand he was under a lot of pressure. He didn't particularly enjoy what he was doing. For example, my dad, he used to work in a factory all day. And he used to say that in the winter, he didn't see sunlight. He'd get up really early in the morning, go to the factory,

Starting point is 00:07:46 work all day, do overtime. By the time he'd come out, it was pitch black again. He hadn't seen the sunlight all day. Then he'd come home and he'd start fixing cars. He was good with cars. And I remember him, he'd be lying in our back entry at home in the snow on his back underneath the car, welding cars. He was brilliant in that respect.

Starting point is 00:08:10 But at the same time, not all the time, sometimes it didn't take much to set him off. He'd lose his temper, start shouting and swearing and banging the table and all the rest of it. I want to be keen know keen i'm keen not to sound like i'm bad mouthing my dad i'm not because i understand what pressure is under you know i'm getting something getting up and doing something that you hate all day coming home and lining the snow welding cars i can understand why he used to lose his temper a bit

Starting point is 00:08:40 sometimes but i was just keen to you know as a as a father now myself not to not to repeat that pattern yeah absolutely it really it really reduces your window of tolerance when you are not vibing of what you're doing I don't think I'm young enough or cool enough to say vibing but there you go I've gone for it I've said it um it really does it really does change your outlook and it changes your capacity to do all of your roles, all of your responsibilities, but also to just do you. Yeah, that's it.

Starting point is 00:09:14 You can't do something that you hate all day and then come home to your family and be all happy and cheery and play with the kids and have some banter with your wife and read stories and output you know, output bedtime. You can't do all that stuff if you just come home miserable and you want to just open a beer and a bag of crisps and sit on the sofa and binge watch YouTube videos or whatever. You know, if you do something you quite enjoy all day,

Starting point is 00:09:40 you come home and you're in a positive mood and you're ready to be that husband you you're ready to be that husband and you're ready to be that father that you know i aspire to be and probably a lot of men aspire to be but they find it difficult because they're they're slugging away at something they don't particularly enjoy all day well done to you that's absolutely yeah i'm so pleased that you found that and that you're achieving that for your family um with your experiences of the building trade you know i'm very aware that there's a very high demographic it's not a very nice term but of high suicide rates in the building trade and i'm also aware you know that

Starting point is 00:10:18 within that there'd be a wide spectrum of people from kind of jobbing 16 17 year olds learning trade and doing kind of bricklaying and scaffolding apprenticeships and stuff right up to company owners you know this is a big scope of people that we're kind of discussing here what's your take on why the rates for suicide are so high in this industry Lee? I've got to be honest Marianne I was actually shocked when I found this out because I entered the construction industry I'm not I wouldn't call myself a tradesman because I just basically operate a crane at the end of the day and install steel beams but I'm still in the construction industry and I entered it because I thought it would be good for my mental health and it actually is I love it I'm outside all day I'm getting plenty of sunlight it's physical what

Starting point is 00:11:12 I do so it's I'm getting a form of exercise um I'm with the lads all day you know I don't want to be politically incorrect but I just love working in a male-dominated environment um it's a little bit dangerous you have to stay switched on otherwise you know potentially I could get hurt or somebody else could get hurt so when I decided to take this route I thought to myself when was the happiest time of my life work-wise and it was when I was in the in the Royal Marines so I thought okay when I was in the Marines what what was it that made me happy and like I said it was being outside it's doing physical stuff dangerous stuff I have to stay switched on being with the lads having a bit of a bit of you know banter and you know good laugh and taking

Starting point is 00:12:01 the mickey out of each other and all that kind of thing. So that's why I joined the construction industry because I thought it would be very, very similar. And I'm loving it. But since we spoke the other week, and then somebody else actually mentioned to me that the construction industry has a high suicide rate. I just got to try to think, like, why is that? Why is it that I'm loving it?

Starting point is 00:12:20 And don't get me wrong, a lot of the builds I speak to, they say they love it, say they enjoy it. So I know, you know know obviously it can be enjoyed um but yeah giving it some thought i've come up with a few things um the first thing that occurred to me is perhaps that what i do is is very very varied i go to a different building site every day meet a different bunch of lads i've got a different problem or a different set of problems to overcome i'm traveling sort of all over the midlands and the northwest so i'm i'm seeing a bit of the countries i'm driving around meeting different people i may be if you haven't got that variety if you're just turning up on a

Starting point is 00:13:00 building site every day and laying a thousand bricks you. You go home, go to bed, get up the next day, go back to the same building site, lay another 1,000 bricks, and that's your life, you know, week in, week out, just laying perhaps a lack of variety. And I'm just using the brickies as an example. I'm sure there's other areas of the building industry where there is that lack of variety. So that was the first thing that came to my head.

Starting point is 00:13:30 Second thing I've noticed is a lot of building sites I go to, and I'm not trying to be judgmental here, but their diet is atrocious. It's all Greggs. I don't know if I'm allowed to name names. Sorry if I'm not allowed to name names, but it's all gregs definitely to name names sorry if i'm not adding name names but it's basically fast food junk food you know bags of crisps bottles of pot etc etc um and i think a lot of people don't understand the relationship between the food that we eat sugars refined carbohydrates all the chemicals that they put in processed food

Starting point is 00:14:06 these days a lot of people don't understand the link between that and their mental health so i think a lot of builders will probably benefit from cleaning cleaning their diet up um obviously there's a bit of a drinking culture a lot of builders they'll go for a few beers on the way home or they spend all weekend having a few beers drinking basically and as you know obviously alcohol is a is a depressant doesn't do you any good from a from a mental point of view so if you're you know sort of combining all this oh and another thing i've thought about as well is um his status I found a little bit that if you if you basically you're walking around in a suit or you know you've got a laptop case like a briefcase for example or you're you know perhaps when I was a PT in a tracksuit or a vest I was

Starting point is 00:15:01 looking in shape people look at you differently. Whereas if you've got work boots on and you're covered in mud and you're soaking wet and you've got all muck all over your face and your hair's everywhere, I don't know. You know, there's like a – I don't know what the word is. I don't know if stigma is the right word. But I think some people in society can sort of lock down on workmen, on tradesmen. You know, I remember at school or somebody said to me the other day, actually, that when they're at school,

Starting point is 00:15:35 the teachers used to say, if you don't try hard, you'll end up working on a building site. And there's that sort of, so I don't know if some lads in the in the trades feel like they they lack a bit of status in society i don't know this is i'm just trying to um you know i'm not trying to trying to offend anybody i'm just trying to i think you're right you know i think i can remember that sort of being said and threatened and around and and maybe you know what we know is that perhaps people that do find formal education more tricky are more likely to end up in kind of hands-on manual labor professions and so maybe there are more people that are perhaps struggling with some of the interfacing of kind of modern life and yeah keeping up with everybody else and the shame and stigma

Starting point is 00:16:25 um maybe people are ending up in the building trade who who didn't thrive in school or didn't find it the easiest or weren't supported optimally to to overcome dyslexia to kind of think about adhd all of those kind of different things that make engaging in education trickier yeah yeah i'd just like to say at this point i think there's a massive difference between academic intelligence people that can read books and sort of memorize it and regurgitate it or even you know understand it hopefully there's a big difference between academic intelligence and practical intelligence and common sense i work on some building sites and you can tell that they're a very, very good builder.

Starting point is 00:17:08 And some of the things I see them come up with to overcome problems, to get these steel beams in, and all their work is immaculate. You know, they've got a really neat, tidy, clean site. And you can just tell that they're very, very proud of their professional capabilities. And I can almost guarantee a lot of these lads, they're fantastic builders, carpenters, electricians, plumbers, all these kinds of people.

Starting point is 00:17:34 They're very, very skilled. And a lot of the work they do is dangerous and it's hard work and it's in unpleasant conditions. Oftentimes you're cold and wet. And when I think back on the attitude to these guys when I was at school by the teachers, not all of them, obviously, but some of the teachers, and the way, like I say, sometimes society

Starting point is 00:17:56 looked down on tradesmen, the work some of these guys do in, like I say, unpleasant conditions, hard graft, it's, you know, I take my hat off to them. And I think a lot of tradesmen should recognise the contribution that they make to society. You know, where would we be without these guys? You know, they build their houses, they fix their houses,

Starting point is 00:18:18 they fix our roofs, you know, any pipes start leaking, your lights go out, you know, these guys will come out and they'll fix it for you. And I think they need to give themselves a pat on the back for that and understand they do a lot of things that these more academic people just couldn't do or wouldn't want to do. I hear you. And today we've had someone out to look at our guttering.

Starting point is 00:18:42 So exactly that. And my husband was like, I could do it. It's got to the stage where he's going to be 49. And he's like, it's going to be really hard for me to do that. Like, I think we should get someone. And I was like, yeah, I totally support that. Like, you know, I think you're absolutely right. Yeah, these guys fulfil a vital role.

Starting point is 00:19:07 Absolutely. We'd be lost without them, and they need to give themselves some credit for that. It's just a different type of intelligence and aptitude and common sense, you know. And some of the lads, like I say, Blame It On Some, the things they come up with, their problem-solving abilities

Starting point is 00:19:24 and the pride they take in their work and the things they construct is fantastic. I think you could be the difference that makes a difference here, Lee. I feel like more sites need to be run by compassionate leaders like you are and like you would be kind of pointing out actually i can see that you struggle with xyz but this is incredible like you should be really proud of this and just try and help lift people up and see themselves as an asset as doing good things not perhaps looking at a deficit looking at things they can't do.

Starting point is 00:20:06 Yeah, yeah, that's it. So say if you got the lads and they started understanding how sort of valuable they are and what skill sets they've got and understanding that's actually, you know, they're a massive credit to society. If you sort of change their mindset in that respect and if they clean their diets up a little bit and maybe cut down on the boozing and maybe did a bit of exercise or what was the other thing I mentioned?

Starting point is 00:20:32 Yeah, maybe added a little bit of variety. If they get a bit bored laying these bricks or do get a bit bored doing this or that, how can I add a little bit more variety into my job? Then perhaps, like I like say those things over individually or combined could um yeah could improve their mental health and you know maybe do something about the the suicide rate I don't know yeah amazing I love those ideas and actually if anyone's listening to this and thinking well I've got a builder coming into clinic next week these are really good examples to be able to discuss with them but also really empowering them to think about well

Starting point is 00:21:09 if we could make a change you know what would that look like what would be enough you know if you woke up tomorrow and you didn't feel like this what would need to have changed and it might be that they're kind of drawing on what you've said like actually this site this job that I've been in for five years it's not igniting me and you know they might then come kind of with a problem focused narrative of I can't change my job because I'm 10 years away from retirement or um you know I won't find another job or no one else will want me or you know I've only ended up in this job because I came in from school and you know challenge that

Starting point is 00:21:45 you know I know that we can kind of pigeonhole ourselves but just I believe in infinite possibility for change and rehabilitation and that you know we we can we can live successful happy fulfilling lives and I know you feel the same way. Yeah, definitely. Well, like I say, I do try and talk to the lads when I'm on site. And I do say to them, I've only been a builder, a lot of them say, since I left school. I say, do you enjoy it?

Starting point is 00:22:19 And like I say, a lot of them, I'd say the most of them say, yeah, I love it. Now, you've got to bear in mind, some of them might be lying, because a lot of people will just say, yeah, I love it, even if they don't. But some of them do say, I a lot of people would say yeah i love it even if they don't but some of them do say i hate it i can't say yeah but i say well what why do you why do you keep doing it then why don't you do something else i couldn't do anything else i've done this since i left school and i don't feel at that point i don't feel like it's my place to try and coach them or lecture them or try and talk you know it's not my place really I don't think in that in that environment to to to try and help them or you know try and instigate a career change I'm there to install the steel beam and work to to get you know a life

Starting point is 00:23:02 yeah I hear you but I guess what you're saying is that they haven't necessarily experienced an upbringing where they realise that you can be really, really happy in your job, and love it and, you know, sing about it almost like, you know, perhaps if they've been raised in an environment like like you were where your dad actually didn't really like his job, and he wasn't fulfilled by it. And then he kind of had to live for the weekends, really, you know. And if other people on building sites have had that experience and then go on to have the same experience themselves yeah they kind of develop that belief that this is just what work is and it's all just kind of drudgery really until you retire or die and that's not particularly

Starting point is 00:23:41 hope filling is it no that's it i think you know i hope you'll agree and correct me if i'm wrong but i think to have good mental health i think part of it is is optimism you need to be able to look at the next six months the next five years the next 10 years the next 20 or 30 years with a sense of optimism you need to be looking forward to your future whereas if you all you can see in your future is getting up every day and going to something that you hate obviously you know common sense dictates that that isn't good for your mental health just looking forward and not wanting to do it i've gone from marine to fitness business owner to crane hire business owner.

Starting point is 00:24:28 And, you know, if anyone's listened to this and it resonates, just have a look at me. I've just gone from one thing, made an extreme move to another, and then I've done it again. I've done it with babies at home, very young children, four very young children, bills and mortgages to pay and all the rest of it. And I'm not saying it's easy.

Starting point is 00:24:50 It's not. It's actually very, very hard. It's risky. You'll lose a lot of sleep. Your anxiety levels will go up. It's a difficult transition. But in my opinion, you know, I've been going 18 months and it's only just really in the last maybe four or five months

Starting point is 00:25:11 started to get established and my stress and anxiety levels have started to come down. I've just had to put a lot, a lot of hard work into it. Like I say, a lot of sleepless nights, a lot of anxiety when things are a bit tight. But you've just got to think to yourself, right, do I want to do something that I hate for the next 10, 20, 30 years, or do I want to have a bit of confidence in myself,

Starting point is 00:25:34 take a few risks, and maybe go through a bit of a stressful year or two, transitioning into something else that I'll enjoy, hopefully enjoy. And, you know, just weighing it all up and maybe, you know, being inspired to make the decision to go for it, you know, for the benefit of your own mental health, your own happiness, but also the sake of your marriage, your kids, and your wider relationships and just weighing on. Absolutely.

Starting point is 00:26:07 And, you know, people don't have to do this alone. They can kind of try and get financial backing as well. You know, like speak to bank managers, you know, put a case forward to kind of really put a business plan together for this and how you're going to earn that money and, you know, in the process make yourself so much happier thank you so much Lee I've loved speaking with you and I think these are really really interesting points and I hope this will inspire people working in mental health but also those who might be

Starting point is 00:26:36 listening to this who are thinking oh that's me I didn't realize I was supposed to be happy in work where can people connect with you? What's your Instagram? Yeah, on Instagram, my StillBeamLifter Instagram is StillBeamLifter Midlands and Northwest. It might be StillBeamLifter Mid and Northwest. So, yeah. And we'll make sure it's on screen on YouTube

Starting point is 00:27:00 and that it's in the show notes. Honestly, I've loved speaking with you, Lee. It's been a real privilege. And thank you for taking the time out of your evening to do this because I know time is so precious. You're more than welcome. And, yeah, thanks again for asking me on. Thank you.

Starting point is 00:27:15 Oh, how great is Lee? Honestly, chatting with him was a real pleasure and I found it so uplifting. And thanks again to him for taking the time out to speak with me after his busy day at work. So we're already getting an idea of what some of the problems might be and how it can make you feel quite stuck, actually, quite downtrodden, quite entrenched, and how it might begin to feel like there's not much hope.

Starting point is 00:27:43 I have to confess that I absolutely love this series on Amazon called Clarkson's Farm. Now, in case you're not a Jeremy Clarkson's fan, perhaps don't be put off at this stage because it's honestly one of the favourite series of mine that I've ever watched. I found it so interesting having a closer look at farming and the farming community and the things that crop up within it. But of course, what we know is that farmers and people working in the farming industry are also reported to have higher than average suicide rates. Why could this be?

Starting point is 00:28:27 I reached out to Sharon May, who is a trained counsellor and has done an MSc recently, looking into farming and mental health. Let's take a closer look for some of the themes and debates and common issues and perspectives that might come up in this area. Hi, I just want to welcome along Sharon May to the podcast. Hi, Sharon. Hi, how are you doing welcome along Sharon May to the podcast. Hi, Sharon. Hi, how are you doing? Really well, thank you. Thanks for asking. How are you feeling now that you've handed in your research for your master's? A big sense of relief. I don't think it's quite hit me yet. There's always that niggly thought that there's something else I should be

Starting point is 00:29:01 doing, but you know, I'll get used to it. it yes yes absolutely and the uh the nature of being an academic is that you might well start studying sooner than you imagine yeah so obviously I hope it's okay to say that you are immersed in farming yourself you married into a farming community in a farming family um and you have now done research looking at what it's like to be a farmer's wife could you tell us a little bit set the context really for why mental health is even a conversation in farming if that's okay? Yeah sure I mean it's often touted as a statistic that the suicide rates for those in farming are much higher than the general population. And it's one of the occupations with the highest suicide rates, unfortunately. I think the research into why has accelerated massively in recent years, which it's needed to do. There's so many contributing factors to why agriculture takes such a strain on mental

Starting point is 00:30:07 health but I think the interesting thing is that it doesn't just affect the principal farmer it has a ripple effect into into those around you know partners families that sort of thing as well because the nature of it is that it's a family business very often so it affects more than that one person but that one person is the linchpin for a lot of the pressure I think. Thank you and yeah I'm sort of racking my brains a little bit thinking about some of my learning for kind of this during my career and remembering some kind of theories that maybe it's not necessarily about the number of people attempting to end their own life, but it's about the people that manage to do that.

Starting point is 00:30:49 And actually in farming populations, people have got access to perhaps more space, more seclusion and more kind of violent means. Is that still a current theme? It's an interesting question to ask because I think a lot of people put it down to oh it's got a high rate of suicide because of the access to lethal means you know particularly firearms and things like that. Unfortunately it just means that those who attempt tend to complete. I think suicide statistics in their own are an interesting measurable way of assessing mental health in an industry but they don't take into account those who don't attempt suicide or those who have thought

Starting point is 00:31:32 about suicide but haven't attempted it and they don't take into account all those people who are struggling on a day-to-day basis with mental health issues um so whilst it is an interesting statistic to use to kind of illustrate the prevalence of mental health in just um in farming i think it i think it's just the tip of a very large iceberg to be fair yeah i agree and i think sort of thinking back on everybody i've ever assessed really it's very rare that someone hasn't told me that I've either attempted to end their own life or certainly been very close to it and of course I'm a skewed population because I'm a qualified clinical psychologist having worked in trauma services but I think this is this is endemic and I guess we're talking specifically about men today even for a man to be in a service, seeing a therapist and turning

Starting point is 00:32:26 up regularly is kind of hard. And I guess that's even harder in farming where, you know, we're putting barriers in place. If we're asking people to come into clinic, you know, don't wear your wellies, you know, don't be too smelly, you know, all of that stuff. But also how do you get cover to do that? How do you begin to tell people, maybe, maybe you're just a lone farmer also how do you get cover to do that how do you begin to tell people maybe maybe you're just a lone farmer how do you begin to to have the space to do that Sharon? I think I think one of the biggest barriers to um sort of help seeking when when farmers are struggling with their mental health is that self-stigmatization you know generalizing massively but they're they're a practical logical person and um they're used to be able to fix things you know if something's broken they find a way to fix it even if it's

Starting point is 00:33:13 a botched job you know they tie it up with a piece of baler twine until it works um emotional stuff doesn't work like that and i find i think they find that really destabilizing and see that as a bit of a failure. It's not helped by the masculine stereotypes that go along with farming, as with a lot of other masculine based industries. And then you've got the sort of the work ethic that is born from necessity, but becomes a bit of a badge of honour you know I haven't taken a day off the farm in you know six years you know plus the practicalities of you know not being able to step away at certain times of year or certain times of the day that sort of thing so it there's a lot of things in the way before someone can say I need help primarily admitting it to themselves then admitting it to other people, then actually seeking the professional services that they might need. Geographic isolation always

Starting point is 00:34:12 used to be a big factor because, you know, literally stepping off the farm. COVID, if it's done anything, has proved that actually you can do a lot of that from the comfort of your own home. But still, then there's the element of privacy you know your home is your workplace your workplace is your home um and there's there's a lot of things that just generally get in the way of kind of being able to take that step forward I think yeah absolutely and I have to confess I might be profess I'm not sure um to being a big fan of Clarkson's farm and that feels like it's illuminated some areas i'd never considered you know even you know the maths element of how can we get profit out of this when there's actually very very hard the margins are so reliant upon the seasons but also upon

Starting point is 00:34:59 kind of government subsidies as well and the kind of whether things are changing almost by the minute it seems is i think i think farming is a kind of it's a difficult one because because a farm is a home and a home and a farm that you're caught at both ends you're a producer and a consumer so when when economically things start to squeeze um the cost of living goes up but you're also getting less margin for your product. You know, the supermarkets, the big sellers are paying less for what they get from their producers and charging more to their customers. And a farmer or farming family gets stung twice in that. So economically, it's very difficult. Then you've got things like sort of global events, you know, the in Ukraine affecting fertilizer prices fuel prices that sort of thing so their their costs of

Starting point is 00:35:50 production are going up too as well as the amount they're getting for their product so financially it's a really really tough place to be and then there's so much out of your control in terms of the weather the weather can absolutely scuff you there's um animal disease you know uh avian flu has been in the news a lot recently tb that sort of thing can all these things that are nothing you have any control over can scupper an already very tight place that you find yourself in and i think the pressures of that were highlighted by Jeremy Clarkson. I think a lot of people came up to us after that first series in particular and said, oh, we just had no idea. And I think that's part of it, too. You know, some farmers are afraid of, well, not afraid, that's probably another word, worried about talking to people because they just don't get it there's that cultural isolation too there's a feeling that the professionals they might talk to might not get the pressures of their job or understand the situation that they're in and I think that also creates a bit of a gap.

Starting point is 00:36:56 Absolutely and if people listening or watching to this are thinking about how they could be a better friend or a better family member to someone in farming or a better clinician if they're working with kind of farmers or wanting to engage farmers what what what's the one top thing they could do Sharon that's a big question uh I think I think it's difficult because not many people know a farmer like not many people can go and hug a farmer it doesn't work like that um but those that do you know check in but i think as as consumers we have a responsibility to be more careful about the choices we make in order to support an industry that is on its bottom

Starting point is 00:37:46 so to speak at the moment and i think as professionals flexibility is a big thing which for those of us who are used to working in sort of regular weekly slots um at certain times that sort of thing it's it's being open to working in a slightly different way and the same that you would, I don't know, with shift workers, that sort of stuff. To kind of go into it with an open mind about there's a certain amount of mistrust between farmers and health professionals sometimes, because historically there hasn't been that understanding of their industry in physical health as well as mental health. So kind of as a practitioner going into that sort of with a bit of an open mind, knowing that that trust really has to be established. I mean, it does with all relationships, but particularly with that one, I think it's probably shaky to start with.

Starting point is 00:38:40 And if a farmer turns up asking for mental health support, they really need mental health support. You know, there's anecdotal evidence that, you know, if a farmer turns up in A&E, he's probably really injured. Take him seriously or he's really sick. And I think it's the same with mental health too. Absolutely. And thinking about whether we can kind of prioritise as key worker, you know, accordingly in our services. And, you know, I think another thing that Clarkson's Farm has done quite well is highlight this real joy possible in farming as well. And actually, those still moments, the moments where you're just at one with nature, you know, it really does show us the appeals of farming doesn't it I think I think that's really true I mean most people are in farming because they have an affinity

Starting point is 00:39:31 for it because they love the lifestyle they love the job they love the animals um and if you were if you were talking to a member of a public who was suffering with depression you'd tell them to get out in nature get some fresh air you know do something physical all these things that like farming tick tick tick uh but it's it's almost like the pressure of the other stuff is preventing that from happening you know it should be a wholesome engaging lifestyle but the the external pressures are such that at the moment it's very hard to enjoy it you do get those bits in between for sure and that's why those who still farm still farm yeah absolutely thank you so much for your time today Sharon I think this has illuminated some really important considerations for people who might be working with farmers or or would like to work with farmers

Starting point is 00:40:23 thank you so much for your time. You're welcome. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you so much to Sharon for your time and for illuminating us into this area that's so important. If you are in farming yourself or if you're working in mental health, hopefully that gives you some interesting insight and some ways to help think working in mental health. Hopefully that gives you some interesting insight and some ways to help think about making mental health care accessible to all. But we're already beginning to piece together a narrative that actually it's tricky to get men through the door of a traditional mental health service. And so that's why I really wanted to think about what is out there that could

Starting point is 00:41:08 be the difference that is making the difference or could be the difference that makes the difference. I chatted with Charlie Bethel, the CEO of Men's Sheds UK, thinking about how his organisation can be and is becoming a difference that can make the difference for men. Hi Charlie, welcome along to the podcast. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me. Thank you, thank you for inviting me. Tell us a little bit about men's sheds and why that is so powerful. So men's sheds are safe spaces for men um and it's somewhere where men can go to create or to connect or to um just just just communicate just just talk as i say and um the majority of men's sheds are woodworking shops um but they'll do metal work they'll do 3d printing they'll do

Starting point is 00:42:04 all sorts of things and then we've got some sheds that just play music and we've got a shed that is a chicken shed so they just go the group of men there will go and look after chickens the use of many is is a little bit it's not necessarily completely fair because a number of sheds now have women but generally there's always a men's only session and it's that piece that really works it's magical on the men that go to them um and then there may be mixed sessions or women only sessions as well and there are women only sheds um but we keep men in the title because we're there for men's health and our vision is healthier and happier men. Yeah, which has a knock-on effect for society as well, for the families and the friends around these men.

Starting point is 00:42:56 It does, and many people that come to the shed come because their wife has taken them down to the shed or their daughters have said they should go to the shed. And there was one occasion um not so long ago where a shed in reading had a wife come down drag the husband and say i'm going shopping you're not leaving until you've signed up and and that's very often what happens and the analogy we use is that if you put 12 men in a in a square room um which is quite important that's square and ask them to talk about their feelings six will leave immediately and the other six will try to find the corners of the room and being men we can't work out that six doesn't go into four. However, if you put a lawnmower in the room and

Starting point is 00:43:32 say fix it, after two hours they will know each other intimately because they will work shoulder to shoulder, they'll talk, they'll know the names of their children, their grandchildren, what ails them and it has further impact not only from a mental health perspective but also from a physical health perspective and there's lots of examples where shedders have not ganged up on somebody but subtly convinced them to go to the doctors and sort out an ailment you know and it's really seen blind people see you know there's been some people that have lost their sight and actually going to the shed has made them then go to the doctors and resolve those problems.

Starting point is 00:44:13 And, yeah, there are a number of stats we can give you on suicide or on anxiety and depression that it's better than any pill you can get on the NHS. Yeah, it's the inclusion, isn't it? And the being seen and being part of something and feeling heard and feeling like you matter. And so much of what we know about depression can be the opposite of that.

Starting point is 00:44:39 Yeah. And it's the sense of purpose. So you go to a shed to make something for yourself, you go to the shed to make something for your family or for friends, and then because you can be on your own in the shed, you don't have to be working with the other shedders, but then there's that sense of purpose when you're making things for the local train station or local school.

Starting point is 00:44:59 One shed recently made 17, recently last year, made 17 xylophones for school. No, glockenspiels. I always get that wrong, apparently they're different. But they, and unfortunately for the children they then played them to them, but it's just that sense of pride that it gives them and that sense of purpose which is really important and I, you know, when people talk about, you know, Maslow's hierarchy, you know, that sense of purpose should be in there front and centre because it makes all the difference. We have people say to us, you know, I had a choice,

Starting point is 00:45:36 go to the men's shed or die by sofa. And it genuinely is that. And there was one guy from Redcar car this was in the newspaper and if you know kind of bear in mind we're talking about men here so them actually opening up and telling these stories afterwards is a huge step and shows how safe they feel um one guy was going to the sea to end his life and um on the way there he bumped into somebody who started talking to him about the men's shed was He was really enthusiastic. He didn't know why this guy was walking down this path.

Starting point is 00:46:08 The guy turned around, went to see the shed with him, and he hasn't gone back since. And we hear that story time and time again. And it is about that safe environment. It might take somebody five, six times to walk through the door of a shed. It's like they're casing out the joint. But when they do come through, they find a very non-invasive, non-questioning culture, an environment where they can thrive. And as I say, there are plenty of stories. We did a survey.

Starting point is 00:46:40 There's 1,180 sheds across the UK at the moment. And we did a survey asking a number of questions around health and wellbeing. And one was, do you believe your shed has saved a life? And 25% said yes. There's 178 replies. So quite a reasonable chunk. 25% said yes.

Starting point is 00:47:00 And 14% said, yes, we believe so. And some of those 25% said, yeah, and that includes me. And there wasn't a question of like, that you might've felt that way later on to end your life. It was direct, yes, this has saved my life. And if a shed has done one thing and it's done that, then the whole movement's been worthwhile. Absolutely.

Starting point is 00:47:22 It's incredibly powerful stuff. And to get those you know those real case study examples it's oh it's obvious it's just life-changing for people does it matter if somebody's never picked up a saw or a chisel or a spanner in their life only for their fingers um no no it doesn't matter um many people that go to sheds won't have done anything before. So a shed leader will have done because they just keep a bit of oversight of what's going on, like open the door. Most sheds, if not all, will do some vetting first in terms of, you know, do you know how to use this machine? Right, OK, well, let me show you how to do it and put people through and sign them off on on machinery and equipment the most dangerous tool in a workshop is probably the stanley knife

Starting point is 00:48:09 but um no the sheds will start off with simple projects for people if they've never done anything before and so bird boxes so if the wi is jam and jerusalem men's sheds are bird boxes and tea um so there are lots of bird boxes made but there's lots of wood turning to turn a bowl it's um you know it's a relatively easy thing to learn um and there are different techniques for people at different levels and you know if your hand grip isn't as strong you can use the other devices you can use and some people just go and just have a cup of tea in the shed they don't they don't actually engage in anything so um but they engage in the community so so you know it doesn't it doesn't matter i mean at the other end um well sorry i should say the first shed i ever went to

Starting point is 00:48:55 see there was a lady in there making a um bird table and the nails that were sticking out of this bird table would have been they would have impaled a robin from 100 yards and it was frightening and my degree was design so I'm looking at it thinking do I really want to come and work somewhere like this or for charity like this but the joy that she had and the joy that the other shedders had seeing her create that was just immeasurable I mean that was fantastic and then at the other end of the scale, you see people making freezes for the backs of churches, so wooden carvings, and you see the most incredible pieces of art and design that are created and, you know, trains for the Father Christmas sleighs,

Starting point is 00:49:39 you know, when he lands and he has to go around the local streets, that they create those for him. It's a huge range of things that they can create. But you start one nail at a time. There's only one person I've seen in a shed not be able to use a tool. And it'd probably be too political for me to say that that was the former prime minister visiting one. So, but, yeah, no, the shedders really do help bring on other people it's really it's a non-competitive environment there's there's that they leave egos at the door generally

Starting point is 00:50:12 yeah and there's scope for everybody even if you don't get on very well the first time we can all grow we can all develop new skills yeah and it's different to say art i remember this one of my um one of our funders saying to me telling me off because I said you know it's not too dissimilar to art classes and she said no no no no in an art class you might be sat next to Constable or next to Pablo Picasso um you know that would dishearten you in a shed you can just be sanding down the wood and get the satisfaction of it so she was one of our very many advocates amazing and are they all free for people to join and come along too so they vary um so some sheds give us for a donation other sheds might say it's a pound

Starting point is 00:50:58 a session um other sheds might have a it's a you know 100 pound for a year's membership and then you can pay that over that time but it's usually mean they you know by declaration means test it and if somebody's struggling the shed will always find a way of keeping them in there and and i think every shed i've ever spoken to would not put um the cost um as an obstacle for somebody joining and and our first the founder the UK Men's Shed Association's founder that was was at Camden Shed set up Camden Shed and the first guy who came through the door was living on five pound a week because he had an argument with the DHS whatever they were called at the time he was mending his own shoes he was doing all of those activities and after three months he said to them

Starting point is 00:51:48 do you know I'd have been dead if it wasn't for this place and it was because they didn't charge but because they were so welcoming as well and he had nothing else in his life to go to at that time he no longer goes to that shed he's got a job he's got somewhere to live it's a very different story

Starting point is 00:52:04 because the shed gave him that confidence um and so yeah it's it's an incredible power you know and it's been coined as therapy that dare not speak your name speak its name the men's shed i prefer soft play for men but um it it really does have that kind of kind of cheeky impact as well so yes yeah so it's a case-by-case shed by shed basis but finances are not a reason to not go because there's you know something can always be done if if if you need the shed then the shed needs you how do people find sorry sorry you you go no no, the only obstacle is that sheds are at capacity at the moment. So we're trying to help sheds with training and finding other premises

Starting point is 00:52:52 and more sheds to open because a lot of sheds have waiting lists, which should never happen. They're trying to open more days where they can. But a lot of sheds are open five days a week and looking at well do we do evenings do we do weekends and that's starting to happen around the shed network as well so that's probably the only barrier that's there at the moment okay and how do people find their closest shed or try and get themselves on a waiting list or see if there's space available? So there's an app on our website, which is mensheds.org.uk. There's a find a shed tool.

Starting point is 00:53:31 You type in your postcode. You remember to click search, which is always my issue when I do it. And then it comes up with all the local sheds. And it will have their contact details, whether that's a phone number or an email address. But also, if there isn't a shed in your area, we're there to try and help create more sheds. But sheds need to be created by the men and women in their local community because then it becomes sustainable. There are a number of shed projects where somebody sets up a shed and pays for somebody to run it.

Starting point is 00:54:03 But they usually, they're not very sustainable and even if they've lasted 10 years they then just collapse where and we're seeing this quite a lot now whereas if you build it from that community and you know we helped to do that you see a very strong sustainable uh shed with all the income that it needs to continue to exist and to grow and develop. And some sheds have got over 200 members. Okay. Well, it really does sound like you're changing lives. And if people are touched by this and want to donate to the Men's Sheds Association, can they? Yes.

Starting point is 00:54:37 Again, on our website, there is an opportunity to do that or just to email in and speak to us, particularly if that function is broken again. But, yeah, they could do that or just to email in and speak to us particularly if that function is broken again but yeah no they could do that but just give us a call and find out more about us and what we're doing so there may be some local sheds that you want to support and amend sheds on social media can people follow you on socials yes we're on all of the things that are on social media which I don't know how to use but yes no we're on linkedin twitter instagram i'll make sure it's on i'll make sure it's on on the screen and in the show notes and people can follow thank you so much for your time and for everything that you

Starting point is 00:55:15 and your organization do to support men and in fact women in men's sheds thank you marianne thank you thank you so much to charlie and indeed all of our guests for their time in speaking with Thank you, Marianne. generally, but also to think about reducing the incidence of male suicide specifically. I would love your thoughts around this. Have you found this a useful episode? Has it inspired your thinking, either for your own mental health or that of someone else that you support? Please do let me know in the comments if watching on YouTube. Please do subscribe, like, share, share to the teams that you're working with, be they clinical or be they on a building site, in a farm or just down the pub. If you're listening as an MP3,

Starting point is 00:56:10 please do consider rating and reviewing on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. I'm Dr. Marianne Trent. It is my privilege and pleasure to speak with you and to bring you this really important content. If you would like to connect with me, please do come and join my Facebook group, The Aspiring Psychologist Community, with Dr. Marianne Trent. Thank you so much for being part

Starting point is 00:56:30 of my world. Take care. with this podcast that you're sad you'll be on your way to being qualified it's the aspiring psychologist podcast with dr marianne My name's Jana and I'm a trainee psychological well-being practitioner. I read the Clinical Psychologist Collective book. I found it really interesting about all the different stories and how people got to become a clinical psychologist it just amazed me how many different routes there are to get there and there's no perfect way to become one and this kind of filled me with confidence that no I'm not doing it wrong and put less pressure on myself. So if you're feeling a bit uneasy about becoming a clinical psychologist I definitely recommend this just to put yourself at ease and everything will be okay.

Starting point is 00:57:51 But trust me, you will not put the book down once you start.

The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast - How to Reduce Suicide in Men - Male Mental Health

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