The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast - How to strive for zero suicide - with Steve Phillip - The Jordan Legacy

Episode Date: September 9, 2024

Show Notes for The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast Episode 144: Achieving Zero Suicide: How We Can Get There - with Steve PhillipIn this podcast episode, I chat with Steve Phillip, the founder of the Jordan Legacy, a suicide prevention organisation inspired by his son, Jordan. We discuss the importance of having conversations about suicide and mental health, the need for a society that aims for zero suicides, and the various factors that contribute to suicide risk. We also talk about the work of the Jordan Legacy in raising awareness, collaborating with other organisations, and advocating for suicide prevention strategies. The conversation emphasises the importance of normalising discussions about suicide and providing support and resources for those at risk.The Highlights: 00:00 - Introduction00:40 - Host Welcome02:05 - Guest Introduction: Steve Phillip, Founder of The Jordan Legacy03:27 - The Story of Jordan's Life and Legacy07:11 - The Impact of Suicide on Families09:30 - Normalising Conversations About Suicide11:55 - Pressures on Young People Today15:10 - Reflecting on the Pandemic’s Impact on Mental Health18:05 - Creating The Jordan Legacy: Mission and Vision22:58 - Practical Solutions for Suicide Prevention26:48 - The Importance of Collaboration in Suicide Prevention31:00 - Economic Costs of Suicide and the Need for Investment36:45 - Personal Stories of Grief and Continuing the Legacy40:55 - Encouraging Conversations and Compassionate Interventions46:21 - Moving Towards a Zero Suicide SocietyLinks:📲 Connect with Steve on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stevephilliphope/ 🌐 Check out The Jordan Legacy and donate here: https://thejordanlegacy.com/ 🖥️ Check out my new short courses for aspiring psychologists and mental health professionals here: https://www.goodthinkingpsychology.co.uk/short-courses🫶 To support me by donating to help cover my costs for the free resources I provide click here: https://the-aspiring-psychologist.captivate.fm/support📚 To check out The Clinical Psychologist Collective Book: https://amzn.to/3jOplx0 📖 To check out The Aspiring Psychologist Collective Book: https://amzn.to/3CP2N97 💡 To check out or join the aspiring psychologist membership for just £30 per month head to: https://www.goodthinkingpsychology.co.uk/membership-interested✍️ Get your Supervision Shaping Tool now: https://www.goodthinkingpsychology.co.uk/supervision📱Connect socially with Marianne and check out ways to work with her, including the Aspiring Psychologist Book, Clinical Psychologist book and The Aspiring Psychologist Membership on her Link tree: https://linktr.ee/drmariannetrent💬 To join my free Facebook group and discuss your thoughts on this episode and more:

Hi there, it's Marianne here. Before we dive into today's episode, I want to quickly let you know about something exciting that's happening right now. If you've ever wondered how to create income that works for you, rather than constantly trading your time for money, then you'll love the Race to Recurring Revenue Challenge with my business mentor, Lisa Johnson. This challenge is designed to help you build sustainable income streams. And whether you're an aspiring psychologist, a mental health professional, or in a completely different field,

the principles can work for you. There are also wonderful prizes to be won directly by Lisa herself. And if you join the challenge by my link, you can be in with a chance of winning a one-to-one hours coaching with me, Dr. Marianne Trent. Do you want to know more? Of course you do. Head to my link tree, Dr. Marianne Trent, or check out my social media channels, or send me a quick DM and I'll get you all the details. Right, let's get on with today's episode. How can we begin to move towards a society where there is zero suicide? What sort

of conversations should we be having both with those we love or those that we work with if we work in mental health? These are all the questions that we are going to be discussing in today's episode and more. I am chatting with Steve Phillips, father of Jordan and the founder of the Jordan Legacy and everything that we can do as a community, as a movement, as an organization, as a country to begin to move towards zero suicide. I hope you find it so useful. Hi, welcome along to the Aspiring Psychologist podcast. I am Dr. Marianne Trent, a qualified clinical psychologist. Today, I know that if you're watching on YouTube, I do look like I

have been in the wars a little bit. And if you're listening and you don't know what I'm on about, I have got a large white patch on my face because I had a mole removed this week and they've told me I've got to keep this on for seven whole days which wasn't something that I was really planning on. I just thought I'd have some small stitches and that would be quite discreet and nobody would notice but that is not the way. Reminds me of when I broke my arm last year and then we had the poorly wing series. Now we will have the which stage of Marianne's mold treatment are we at? But today is such an important conversation. This episode is launching as close to World Suicide Prevention Day as possible. But this is not just a conversation

for September. You may be discovering this months, perhaps even years later. It's an incredibly powerful episode, of course, because we are talking about suicide. This might feel triggering, so please do look after yourself. And if you are listening around young ears, perhaps wear headphones or consider popping back later. And I will look forward to catching up with you after this chat with Steve Philip. Hi, welcome along to the podcast, Steve. Hi, Marianne. Really good to be here. Thank you for inviting me. Oh, I feel so honoured that you've agreed. I feel like I've followed you and your work

for as long as I've been kind of on socials, really. So I can't really imagine a time on LinkedIn when you weren't in it. And so I feel really honoured and privileged that you're affording us your time. No, thank you. And yeah, LinkedIn is a platform I'm very familiar with because it was my career before losing my son, Jordan. I taught organisations about how to use the platform and other social media. So it's somewhere that people have known me for many years, but in two very different stories, really. Absolutely. Well, that partly explains why you are so engaging on LinkedIn and why you've developed the following you have. But of course, it's the very poignant and powerful content that you are discussing, which really is scroll stopping for all the right reasons. Could you tell us a little bit about your son, Jordan, please, Steve? Yes, well, you know, the story or the second story,

as you were, Marion started on December the 4th of 2019, when Jordan was 34 at the time, took his own life, something that none of us had expected, despite the fact that he was diagnosed four and a half years prior to that with clinical anxiety and depression. I think it's fair to say that most of us who knew Jordan were uneducated about the risks involved. So when it did happen, it was a complete shock. For context, Jordan's story is not that dissimilar to many others that I've that I've heard say he was 34 at the time he had his own house um just outside Leeds he had a successful career as a officer with the Independent Office for Police Conduct the IOPC quite a stressful job but managing it well very well thought of he had a

lovely relationship with his partner Charlotte a loving family despite his mother and I having separated and divorced back in 2005 we've kept a very close relationship she's best friends with Jordan's step-mom which which is wonderful thing to see-year-old mother finds it a little weird when the three of us are sitting on a sofa together, but she's from a different generation maybe. But he was the lad described by his friends as the, you know, the guy who would light up the room when he walked into it. He was over six feet tall, a good-looking lad by most people's estimation.

His dance moves apparently at weddings and events were legendary. And on many a night out, his friends would look around to see where Jordan was, only to find him in the middle of Leeds, kneeling down, talking to a busker or a homeless person. And Jordan was very much one for the underdog. You know, if he had a friend or a pal that was in trouble. He was probably the first of the group to jump in his car and drive a few hundred miles to be there to support them. And that was very much how Jordan was described to me, really, after his death. Because when you have a child, you know that child until they leave home. And then there's parts of that person's life that you just don't know about, partially because they

keep that very private from their parents and family and partially because they're living a whole different life and existence outside of that direct family circle. But yeah, a lad that I think most parents would be very proud to call their son. It's certain that it shines out of you and the content that you create, really. Just what a lovely, kind person he was. And I feel like I know him, despite the fact that obviously I've never had a chance

to actually meet him. And the other day I know him despite the fact that obviously I've never had a chance to actually meet him. And the other day I was on holiday in Greece and in the resort was someone I thought was Jordan, because someone looked so like him. And I'm sure you've had moments like that yourself over the years as well, where you, you know, someone's similar posture and size and mannerisms. It was only a few months ago we took a holiday at the end of December, actually, and went to Tenerife, a spot we know well there, just to take a short break before Christmas.

And on a table next to us were some young people. And I remember taking a very sneaky sort of sideways photograph, as I said to my wife, look how much that lad kind of looks like Jordan, and shared it with with the family and and there was a similarity but yeah moments like that kind of stop you in your tracks really they do and for a moment you can kind of imagine or just enjoy seeing them I think this is the power of video content as well isn't it that you can see them alive and well and yeah sort of you kind of kind of it's it's a mixed poignant emotions isn't it so you know bittersweet happiness oh yeah definitely

um just before we came on air you talked about the fact that um uh say Jordan's stepmom and I married 10 years ago uh this this month and um as part of that day, we treated ourselves to a spa day locally, but we pulled out the wedding video that was really nicely produced by somebody locally for us. But, of course, as we sat there and watched it, there was Jordan delivering his little poem and nervous as heck delivering it and other moments where we could see him during the video. So, you know, we both said it was a

real roller coaster you know such a happy day and yet on reflection now you look back and go wow you know there's all that potential still there you know 10 years ago absolutely um i'm pleased you've got those memories and that you've got them to be able to look back on but i just i wish it had a different outcome. And the audience for this video in this podcast episode will be varied. Actually, we may have people listening or watching because they've recently been affected by suicide or because they're starting to worry about themselves or someone they care about. about you know the question that we often might ask in a mental health service along the lines of are you having thoughts that life might not be worth living or have you had any thoughts about about ending your own life or or planning or preparing for that and sometimes a parent will

become aware of that answer before a service will and it's it's how to manage that but some other audience will be people working in mental health services who'll be having these clients in the room with them or or their referrals on their desk almost as we as we speak as they're listening to this and it's it's a big deal and we want we want to get it right for everybody that's listening and everybody that's watching and everyone that comes into contact with these people it's a really really big but important job isn't it so I guess if we first speak to what the heck do we do if we find ourselves in this position how can we try not to scare people away and that would be the same as a parent or someone working in a service how can we

how can we have this powerful impact yeah it's a really good question marion and you know we hear the word normalize used a lot how do we normalize the conversation around mental health how do we normalize the conversation around suicide? But because it is so prevalent, because it impacts so many people in this country alone, you know, over 800,000 people every year are going to be impacted by a suicide death. So we need to recognize the scale of the issue and we need to become more comfortable in talking about a subject that's been extremely taboo. You know, if you had a child or someone you loved who'd gone out on a motorbike, for example, and, you know, they've been riding it too fast, they came off and had an accident but but fortunately got away reasonably unscathed you'd be you know even before that you'd be having a conversation with them wouldn't you

about you know just be careful out there you know these are the risks you know you wouldn't think twice about doing it but but when it comes to to suicide um we we just find it very difficult to have that conversation. So in some way, we have to become better at that. And I think that becomes more of a hope if we, as a society, become a much better educated society around suicide and these conversations are taking place in our workplaces, our schools, in our public health departments and in our communities. Yeah, absolutely.

And it's kind of evoking memories of when I worked in a CAMHS service, which is, for anyone who's not sure, it's the service for children, adolescents with mental health difficulties. And as part of that, there'll be close working with families. And sometimes a parent would be realising that their child is self-harming and then naturally sort of jump to the conclusion that that means that they're suicidal. And to that, I would say not always. Sometimes people will engage in acts of self-harm, but never become suicidal. And so the two are separate.

But of course, what we know is it's possible for people to engage in no self-harm but be suicidal or actually end their own life. And it's a lot, isn't it? It is. And I think if we look at, again, young people in particular, what are the risks involved? You know, things have changed, particularly from my day as a young person, that I think the pressures,

societal pressures on young people are far more multifaceted and extreme than we ever experienced. You know, the worst-case scenario for us was our parents were probably worried if we'd fall out of a tree because we were climbing it. But, you know, we've got, you know, peer pressure at a level we've never seen before. A lot of that through online social media comparisons and influences out there at the moment. We've got standards within schools that are having a knock on effect not not only to teaching staff but to the pupils as well it seems to be almost now from preschool there's a standard you've got to meet as a young

person or an examination you've got to to go through we're in a world that many are considering is unstable in many respects from a from a climate point of view and some of the conflicts we're seeing around the world. So, you know, there are many reasons why young people in particular are feeling confused, displaced and fearful for the future. And if we know and understand that, although there are many reasons why someone might go down the path of attempting suicide, two things usually create that situation. One is a sense that that person is trapped in some way.

That can be in a relationship or in financial difficulties or through addictions or whatever it might be, which ultimately leads to a sense of hopelessness. And if that person feels hopeless about the future in any way, then that's the point where they've now potentially become at risk of considering suicide. So I, again, yeah, hope I was really thinking about the timeframe of Jordan's death at the latter end of 2019. And, of course, what we know came next was the pandemic and I'm kind of struck by the fact that I'm remembering that Caroline Flack

ended her own life in February Valentine's Day wasn't it 2020 but what we know with hindsight is that just a couple of weeks after that, everything seemed to stop mattering. And the kind of context of the entire world shifted and nobody could have known what was going to happen with the pandemic. But it may have made such a difference to so many people in terms of everything shifting online, people staying home, the pressures being different, people may have been furloughed. You know, people are not, shame almost would have been excised from so many situations and guilt and responsibility and shoulds and I musts.

And that's the variable that we just, we can't account for and we can't turn back time. Nobody could have known that was going to happen but I find myself as a professional dwelling on that because so many people did seem to begin to thrive on the other side of the pandemic where actually they'd shifted to working from home or remotely or they'd they'd seen that actually nothing happens if they don't go to work every day you know and they are happier and actually when they include exercise and they've got more time to eat and they're not spending an hour each way commuting they're able to spend time with their

family and their loved ones and it just it's less depleting and more enjoyable and kind of it reminded so many of us about the important factors for life I think I think that's a really important point to make Marion for a number of reasons so you know I think back to those initial weeks and days and weeks following Jordan's suicide um you know where was I in that moment i was in a in a place where nothing mattered really at all you know we talked offline again about the fact that my work with the jordan legacy is full-time and i immediately stepped back from my career in consultancy because that didn't matter um you know nothing in previous to jordan's death would have ever made me make that kind of decision. Yeah, I mean, literally nothing really kind of, nothing could have hurt me, nothing could have

harmed me, nothing could be worse than what had happened. And I know so many other people bereaved by suicide, you know, have said they felt the same way. And then, as you say, we all moved into COVID at that period of time. And I think there were many who, and we saw the tweets, we saw the comments on social media suggesting that suicides were increasing rapidly as a result of the COVID pandemic. We know that wasn't factual, unusually for X and Twitter. We know, in fact, there was a slight decrease of 5% in suicides during that period. And there's a theory and a belief out there that we changed our attitudes during that period of time that we did, as you say, started to realize that actually lots of things we did worry about before were maybe not as critical, but we also as a community and a society came together.

We started looking out for each other. We started doing shopping for our neighbors and checking in with them and family to see if they were OK. We did all these things, which we should be still doing. But as is the human race, we've kind of reverted back to type in many cases. Some haven't. Of course, they've continued on. But it proved that as a society we can be kinder, we can be more supportive of one another, and as a result of that, you know, more people can thrive as a result.

So I think it's a really important point you make. I think we are definitely stronger together. Like I love people. I love conversations in Tesco about cauliflowers with random people. Like, I really, I really like connecting with people. And I think when we were all masked up, and in many ways, were being more community driven but we were having to be physically distanced from people that I think that was trickier so this is you know it wasn't all hearts and flowers during the pandemic you know especially for someone in a domestically violent relationship where they're suddenly in a lockdown situation with that partner or you know actually what we also recognized during lockdown was that so many of us, we have

our three soothing systems, I don't know if you've done these three systems, it's compassion and focus therapy idea, so you've got your drive, your threat and your soothe system, so many of us had our soothe system activated outside of the house, so it might have been cinema trips, it might have been meals with parents, it might have been, you know, catching up with friends at the pub or it might have been meals with parents it might have been you know catching up with friends at the pub or it might have been cinema it might have been um I've said cinema twice cinema twice go twice in a week's fine um it might have been gym going you know it might have been something outside of your home that kept you really well and then when all that went off limits it's almost like how do I begin to soothe myself which is why there was kind of suddenly loads more kind of downloads of mindfulness apps and the podcasting went through the roof I don't know if

you're part of the clubhouse generation but clubhouse was like a just exploded because everyone was home and listening to that and so really encouraged us to think about how we soothe ourselves and how we keep ourselves well and obviously a part of this time you were thinking about this needs to be different this needs to matter you know there needs to be a purpose and so you began to think about Jordan Legacy coming coming to fruition and obviously that's happened. Could you tell us a little bit about the project, the company and what you what your aims are? Yeah, it's it was an interesting time because like many people bereaved by suicide, your your instant reaction once the dust has settled, so to speak, is is right.

What do I do now with my life? And think because um I was so uneducated about this this subject and started to realize that that many other people were as well um I wanted to get the message out there so people understood the the risks and that all began only three weeks after Jordan's death when I went back to LinkedIn a platform I knew well, and in some way as a release to get some anger out, I shared my story as an article. And partially in the hope as well that if I explained how awful this situation was that we were going through, that it might just resonate with somebody who was thinking of taking their own life. And it might just cause them to go go let me just step back from this and although it was a naive thought and I recognized that that that it doesn't work quite as easy as that it did in fact work because I did get many messages from people who said I've read your article I just can't do this to my family

and I thank you for sharing it and and the article, as far as LinkedIn is concerned, went viral. I had people like Ariana Huffington from the HuffPost emailing me and lots of people. And I think although I knew I had a voice on that platform, I suddenly realized that potentially I had a new voice and that people, if they could resonate with what I'd written there, that perhaps if I shared more of the story and, you know, that might in turn help me spread a message.

And that message became fairly clear within a number of months when I started talking with a number of people really about what do I do in terms of suicide prevention? What do I need to know? So I was reading books during this time through the whole sort of January to probably late summer of 2020 through that COVID period, watching videos, listening to podcasts, connecting and engaging with people around suicide prevention, not least the many people that reached out to me as a result of some of those early articles and posts.

And it became very clear that I wasn't going to set up a charity that was going to be a helpline or, you know, they were there. They were already there. I didn't want to just go out and do fundraising or anything like that. I wanted to know what were the practical things that needed to be done. And as I started to learn more about the zero suicide community globally and society and the practical solutions that could be put in place in our community schools and workplaces and our healthcare systems, that kind of appealed to me because I had a business background. That kind of made sense. What can we do in a practical way? So the Jordan legacy, its mission has always been to help us move towards a zero suicide society. That term often gets some pushback, but it's an evidence-based concept that comes out of Detroit and the healthcare system through the Henry Ford healthcare system there in the early 2000s. But it,

by our definition, is a society that is willing and able to do all it can to prevent all preventable suicides. And the argument is that if we don't aspire to zero, what do we aspire to? Because anything less than that is surely suggesting that we're going to set limitations and restrictions on that. So that's where that comes from. We recognize and the research will. So that's where that comes from. We recognize and the research will support that most suicides are preventable, but not all suicides. And that's a really important message because for anyone who's lost someone

to suicide like me, to be told that all suicides are preventable, you start looking at yourself. You go, well, so what did I do wrong there? So I think we've got to be really very conscious of that that message and how that is is delivered so our work is to and as we've done so far engage with government departments with other charities with campaigners with people working in local authorities within businesses schools and communities to have the conversation. So I deliver a lot of talks on this subject, but also to to collaborate and work in partnership. And one of our missions really moving forward from autumn of 2024 is recognizing that we've we've had 16 years now of suicide numbers flatlining at best, increasing at worst. And now with the latest Samaritans report that

came out a few months ago, we now know we've seen a 6% increase in suicides during 2022 and 2023. That's 5% for men and 8% for women. So something's not working. National suicide prevention strategies are not delivering the significant downturn that we need to see. So one of our major focuses going forward is how can we bring all these incredible people together that are doing marvelous work in pockets around the country? How do we bring us all together to share that knowledge and experience? Let go of the egos sometimes that hold us back i think as a community how can we all come together to really make that massive macro difference that needs to happen so that we don't see a figure of 6 000 plus deaths by suicide every year in this country that that we do steadily

start to see coming down to five and four and moving closer towards zero. So this is very much our focus. And just one final point on that, Marion, a lot of this thinking came from an action research project and report that the Jordan Legacy published in 2023, which we put together in collaborative partnership with Paul Vittles, who now has his own moving new CIC called Towards Zero Suicide. And that was considered a groundbreaking report by a number of suicide prevention leads in the country.

And we asked two fundamental questions of dozens of people. Do you believe we can significantly reduce the numbers of suicides in the UK? And if the answer to that question was yes, how far do you think we can significantly reduce the numbers of suicides in the UK? And if the answer to that question was yes, how far do you think we can go? And we looked at all aspects of society and community and workplaces. And essentially what that report did was map out what life would be like if we were living in a zero suicide society. So it's on the basis of that report that we're now moving forward to look at how we can strengthen collaboration in the uk yeah thank you steve you obviously really know

your stuff but you're also contributing to the data yourself as part of the jordan legacy and um you know just i hope it really it achieves and strives for its goals. And thinking about that word ego, you know, I'm thinking about myself as a mental health professional. I just want to say to you as a father, every time I hear of somebody's suicide, I'm gutted. Absolutely gutted you know I've spent years in theory and in practice working with people to to strive for this zero suicide alliance but also I'm sure as you have recently had people saying to you if it wasn't for you I would have ended my life and I've heard that on a number of occasions but it almost begins to make you feel slightly slightly powerful and magical for this ability to make a difference and so when I and my colleagues I think I speak for us here of these suicides honestly I cry like if only there'd been a chance for somebody to work with that person but what we

also know is that people do end their lives when they are in active therapy and active treatment but they also end their lives before they engage with treatment or the shame of engaging with treatment feels too much or the one that is just honestly on a waiting list with no intervention that still really really gets me because one of the things I was doing was working with the NHS was assessing pretty much most of the people in the service so I was holding these stories they weren't just names for me they were people you know with families with lives with goals with with hopes with dreams but also then seeing them on a waiting list that was really really really hard really hard and wanting to create a modern service where actually you get treatment at the point

where you need it and that there's a zero wait list service which is what I'd been used to when I worked in a cam service which I know sounds radical but we were working in what was called a choice and partnership approach model at the time so it was all closely calibrated and job related that somebody would come along and if they had a need for treatment they'd be they'd leave the clinic with an appointment their next appointment but it seemed pretty much impossible to replicate that in an adult service which destroyed me really because that's how I wanted to be able to work because people matter lives matter and I know there's some rather grisly research that suggests what's lost to society from a suicide,

that it's actually there's a monetary value based on what that person would have spent, how they would have populated, how they would have, you know, earned, how the taxing would have happened. There's a big loss to society, to the world, with each and every suicide you know this is something i recently well earlier this year delivered a ted talk at bristol

university and it was one of the the points that i that i raised and and and i know it does sound crass because we're talking as you say about lives and and lost opportunities and loved ones but but this is what frustrates me sometimes about the lack of investment in suicide prevention because when Samaritans brought out their report a few months ago where they estimated that each death by suicide had a cost to the UK economy of £1.45 million, there was the initial cost of death and all that's involved there,

the inquests, of course, and other legal aspects of that. There's the therapy and support, of course, for those that are left behind and ongoing support for them. But there is this loss of earning, depending on the life expectancy of that individual, that's calibrated to be an average of 1.45 million pounds. So if you take the total number of deaths in the UK at over 6,000 to suicide, that's what's reported, you're looking at a staggering 10 billion pounds in cost to the UK economy. Surely it makes sense to invest that money up front in just the same way as it makes sense from a physical health point of view to have a preventative program in place to stop people being ill. But we just don't seem to get either of those right in society at all but it just seems a no-brainer to a layman like me it really does like it's just simple economics really absolutely totally agree so how how do we you know if we've got that six billion then he goes he goes steve is six billion

how i know it's 10 10 10 billion 10 billion sorry i've short changed you i've kept i've kept four billion under my desk but we'll take this we'll take the six billion though you know because we're not getting that i'm gonna give it you all here you go here's the other four so i'm giving you all 10 billion what what are we doing with it yeah what are we doing with it or what should we be doing with it what do we do with it if we've got 10 billion now how do we create this gold standard get it right first time it might be a service it might be you know just something that takes you from the first realisation that I'm having thoughts, life isn't that enjoyable, to then beginning to live a fully active, enjoyable life? When we published our report in July of 2023,

we took the 84 pages of that report that Paul and I had worked on and thought, how do we condense this visually? And we created this jigsaw puzzle, if you like, where all the pieces slot together. And they were all the aspects of suicide prevention that if practical solutions were implemented and they all came together, you know, would make that difference. And this is what we were told by all those people

that we interviewed and spoke with, many of them with lived experience. And it's a combination of factors that we need to invest in listening more to those with lived experience and get their involvement and viewpoints. That's really important. We need to look at national suicide prevention strategies that don't prioritise just certain target groups, but recognise that everyone is a priority for someone. We need to have active suicide prevention in our workplaces, in our schools, our education systems, in our health systems. We definitely need a suicide prevention educated and activated public.

But then if you look at the infrastructures around our societies and communities, we lobbied through a petition to have a National Suicide Prevention Office, a central office independent of government things that you've mentioned there with your CAMHS experience, Marion chronic pain who are at risk of suicide. We need to invest more in our tech, those things that can help identify when somebody is at risk or provide support when they are. And we need to look at our infrastructures, our buildings, our railways, all the environments where people choose to end their own lives and invest in better protection there i mean the list goes on um that 10 billion can be spent um very quickly when you just consider some of those things but some really wonderful places to start in spending that 10 billion um yeah the And, yeah, the idea of making it harder, you know, monitoring our railway bridges better, having better sensors, having more awareness, maybe even having more, you know, I'm aware that I've got a friend who used to be a travel policeman.

That's not the right word, is it? You know what I mean? British transport police, is it? Yeah, like they just scrapped it all, like in my locality. There's no one who will chase after you if they see someone recklessly driving. Like that's not a thing anymore because they're not out and about. It's more that you get called to a site of disturbance. But there's less, you know, this isn't an anti-police movement at all,

but there's just no this isn't an anti-police movement at all this but there's just less there's less presence and are we all quite scared to talk to people and and intervene and um i don't know if you're familiar with one of my friends and colleagues dr tara quinn chirillo but um in the in the locality where she works she's um got a project called the conversation starter project that she actually started during lockdown which is in Horsham Park and literally you get together you go along and you go for a walk and you have conversations with strangers but of course over time those strangers become friends and it's facilitated by a qualified counselling psychologist but it's not therapy but what we know is that when we feel like we're part of something and we've got a function and a purpose that can be so powerful yeah very much so and and again one of our

our visions for this fairly ambitious um collaborative initiative that we're putting together at the moment is that we recognize there are so many people working in suicide prevention in the third sector, non-professional, if you like, that are doing this alone. You know, people like myself, you know, people think because of the presence that we have online and the work that we've done over the last four years, that we're some massive organization. When they hear there's like two or three of us um you know they're shocked i even had a call from someone recently um or a

message that said you know we'd love to come up and visit your foundation i said well you can come and have a cup of tea in my kitchen if you want uh because that's who we are you know but there are many like me you know that are working quite isolated very often you know doing the best they can to make a difference but but being part of something bigger than that I believe is a way of helping people like myself and others to feel they're part of a community and not just working tirelessly from home to try and make a difference on specific campaigns or projects. Absolutely. And I know from following you on socials that your daughter now works with the Jordan Legacy as well. Yeah, it's been a really important step, I think, for both of us.

Now three years it'll be coming up that she started working with us and having been a teaching assistant before, no experience of of uh social media or working in a business environment like this and she looks after and does an incredible job with everything that we do online and looking after elements of our website as well um and although she she shies away from the the limelight um even though i'm trying to push her in certain directions now. You know, she does this wonderful job.

And then every so often she will write a post of her own, very heartfelt post, beautifully written, which resonates with so many people and embarrassingly outshines mine quite easily when she writes them, which is wonderful to see. And, you know, I think one of the things we've both found about this work is, and people have asked me a question quite often, you know, how easy or difficult is it to do what you do? And this conversation I had with Danielle very recently,

you said, how are you finding this? Because, of course, she's sharing images of her brother, sharing stories of her brother. All the conversations are really about her brother whatever it is that we we do and she's felt that loss like we we all have um and she said i don't know she said i suppose when i'm working on the jordan legacy anything i do there it's it's like it's like work it's like a project and a separate box that i put this into. And it's very much what I've had to do as well.

I know there are times where I speak on podcasts, kind of got through today, fine, or deliver talks where there will always be a wobble and a moment because you're talking about something so personal at times and your mind can't help but go there. But I think that's important as well, because I think the day you lose that connection with why you're doing this and that does happen with some charitable organizations. I think that's the time you step away because you become too disassociated with with what's with what's happened. So I think for both of us, yeah, working together is great. We work remotely remotely she's about 80 miles away from me so she doesn't have to put up with me physically every day uh does a great job and we we both are able to have our private moments and reflection about jordan um but when we we come to each day we're able to sort of crack on and do what we we need to do so I think in some ways it's I wouldn't necessarily call it a therapy but for me I think it has helped enormously to throw

myself in into this and by talking about it as much as I do I think it's helped me to process some of that grief as well. Yeah I think what you're nicely demonstrating there is kind of externalizing yourself and externalizing jordan from this it's about him and it's about people who find themselves in a situation that he was in so that we can prevent people finding themselves in a situation that you're in but it's it's yeah it's almost like a separate thing it's not about you and your grief anymore it's kind of it's it's morphed beyond that and um the podcast episode just before this one was about how to progress your career when you're grieving um and both myself and my podcast guests were in tears at points during that because it's so raw and sometimes you will

get more of the authentic person showing up as they're talking about that but you know I guess you've you've managed to progress your career whilst grieving it's okay to do that isn't it it's it's okay to to make money to have earnings while still grieving. The two are not mutually exclusive, as we say. Yeah, and I'm really glad you brought that up because, as you asked earlier before we came on air, I do this 100% of the time now. So I had a career where I was a consultant running my own business and earning quite a nice income and a salary, and I stopped.

I wasn't at retirement age yet at that stage. No real plans for retirement. I had an exit strategy looking ahead several years for the business, but I needed to earn an income. And so, you know, I'm very open about the fact that this is a business really it's a community interest company but to all intents and purposes a limited company and although most of the income will come through the talks that I deliver and donations that is invested in us to do the work that we do we don't have a building we don't have a

direct service that we provide but it is invested in us working the hours that we do we don't have a building we don't have a direct service that we provide but it is invested in us working the hours that we do every single day to do the work and you know that i've described today and i think you know we shouldn't shouldn't shy away from from that we're doing a a job that as is important as any other job that's out there at the moment and we have a roof over our heads that needs to be paid for um despite the fact that uh yes certainly the income from this job is nowhere near the income it was from the previous one yeah absolutely and that's some of the stuff i come up against with kind of providing services for aspiring psychologists as well people are like well shouldn't it be free and it's like well be amazing if it was but my mortgage isn't free and you know they tesco don't give me

groceries for for doing what i do you know i'm passionate about doing what i do and doing it well but i also do need to live yeah it's really important and i think a lot of people get that it's very rare i i've ever ever come across an issue with that. But it is important. Yeah. At the end of the day, if all the Marks and Spencers and Tescos of the world said, we think you're doing a wonderful job. Have all your clothes and groceries for free. Then we would do it for free. And the local car dealership said, oh, and here's a car. And Jet 2 said, here's a holiday. Absolutely. We would do it all for free. I mean, that's what happens to the influencers,

but the influencers still charge high fees. So they're getting it all free and they're getting the big bucks. You know, that's what we'll do. As you were speaking earlier, I was thinking about hope and hope can feel tricky because what I know that you've spoken about, I think it was looking at Jordan's Gate, we might think a bit about Jordan's Gate shortly, was you saw a young man who looked at peace is good this is good but what we know clinically in services is almost when somebody has come up slightly from depression and kind of crippling anxiety they almost become slightly riskier actually because it's a fact isn't that like and that that's horrendous because that felt really good for you as a parent,

but it was kind of at that point where he was suicidal and you didn't necessarily know. And that's incredibly powerful as a parent, but also for anyone listening to this. Yeah, I mean, you're referring and you referenced Jordan's gate and it's what's become a fairly iconic photograph to many people when Jordan, his stepmother and I took a walk not long after he's first been diagnosed with clinical anxiety and depression.

We took a walk in the countryside local to where we lived. We came across this gate. Jordan just sat on the top of this gate, was looking up at the sky, big smile on his face. I thought, well, there's a photograph. First time we'd seen him smile in ages. Little did we know that that would become almost a poster for Jordan. Yeah, told you to be a moment.

Always is. But it has and and because you know little did we know that it wasn't until after his death that we read journals that jordan had written that we found in the attic of his home that only a matter of probably a couple of weeks prior to that date he'd written in his journal that he'd been researching methods of suicide for the first time so you know you just have got to be so careful I think the message that you're putting across there is that when we talk about spotting the signs that someone might be suicidal automatically people will look at the depressive signs, the signs of worry, fear. And when someone's suddenly their spirits are uplifted and they seem to be in a better place,

that's the time everyone breathes a sigh of relief. But we also know clinically that this can be a moment where the person has found peace with their decision to end their own life. And because of that, they have a way out. And naturally, as a result, all the stresses and worries and the anxiety and the pressure that they have will be alleviated and their mood will change. So I think, you know, it's a really important sign that if you've seen any change in behavior in someone

where they've had a period of depression and suddenly become very upbeat and and seem to have it all together and it's maybe a you know quite a rapid change but you see this change in behavior that's not the time to sit back that's the time just to keep the focus keep having the conversations and checking in to make sure that they're okay or even to say, look, I've noticed this sudden change in behaviour. You seem really, really well. What's brought that on? And try and get to the bottom of that if possible.

Absolutely, absolutely. And I feel like we could talk for a week and still not do this justice. But what's next for Jordan's legacy well we have say two real real areas of focus one I've alluded to before is is a fairly significant vision and plan to strengthen collaboration between those of us that work in the suicide prevention space nationally been having a number of of uh close-knit conversations with people sharing kind of thoughts and been doing quite a bit of research into how do we create such a community because i think um if i mentioned people collaborating in suicide there

will be many say well this is you're not the first to have come up with with this idea but but what i wanted to understand was you know what makes real communities and networks work well globally in different settings maybe to suicide prevention what are some of the reasons why maybe some of those um that have tried to go before haven't uh worked and remain sustainable so be doing a lot of research around that and and now have a framework of a plan that we're going to start communicating very soon within the next few weeks and start extending invitations out to those that I know like and trust if you like within my network who would be interested in exploring this

further because I think we need to do something different and I do believe that strength in numbers we're stronger together something you said earlier is is really important um and you know when i shared this with danielle we had a conversation recently i said what do you what do you think about this i said we've got a choice here or she said you've got a choice dad you can either put that to one side and just carry on delivering talks and doing stuff fairly local which would make a difference that'd be great or you've got this bigger aspiration that will terrify you and us probably but if you don't give it a go how are you going to feel in five ten years time and she said if it doesn't work the door doesn't achieve what you hoped it's going to achieve it will still be better than having done nothing and at least we've given it a shot and i think that's what life is sometimes

isn't it it's about giving it your best shot uh for the right reasons and sometimes you're going to win and sometimes you're going to get a silver or a bronze medal yeah analogy they're given the games are very very recent at the time of recording yeah but you want to give yourself permission to to do it as well yeah i i think it's very easy to go you know for imposter syndrome to kick in isn't it and go who am i to to think that i could pull this off but you know again coming back to the olympics and some of the interviews you know from this summer um of people that that shouldn't have been there for all kinds of reasons or didn't believe they could be there and then

came away with medals you know some truly inspiring stories they could have gone you know many of them with mental health issues could have gone I'm not well enough to to take part and step back and yet they they showed up and came away you know with with medals so you know I think we need to be inspired by what we've seen this summer in Paris by so many of our athletes as well yeah but I'm also aware that we've had two relatively high profile suicides by by sports professionals or ex-sports professionals over this summer period as well and I'm also aware that this episode is coming out very close to World Suicide Prevention Day but this isn't a conversation for just one day

is it this is this is something that needs to be woven into the fabric of of everything like you said like from real grassroots levels nurseries you know um you know early years education primary and you know i've been a school governor for a couple of years as well during my career and pastoral care is getting so much better and um the episode that's coming, I think, after this one is about by the founder of Daddy Blackbird. And there's a really, really powerful animation that's been created by Caroline's daughter, actually, that's in the episode talking about actually how harmful

and hurtful the word suicide can be used, if used as a joke or if used as a colloquialism and that we need to be aware of the power of that but also that it can be evocative you know but we need to be able to have those conversations in a in a compassionate helpful way and be prepared to have those conversations not just on one day every year yeah and i think it's really important you again coming back to something you said there marion about woven into kind of the fabric of our society and there are different ways to do that you know people like andy mike and tim who we know well the three dads you know have said that you know

their campaign to have suicide prevention on the school's curriculum is about age appropriate training. You know, I remember being invited out last year in October to deliver talks through the Department of Education in Gibraltar. And I was delivering talks to year 12 and 13s where we talked about suicide. And then I suddenly found myself talking to five and six year olds. That hadn't been in the plan beforehand, by the way. And on the plane, hurriedly putting something together for that talk. Once I got the email about four o'clock that morning, but we were able to talk about being kind.

And how do you feel when someone isn't kind to to you and and so we were able to have a conversation around similar issues but just using different different language so there is a way to deal with the issue at hand in age appropriate ways but we need to start early we need to start dealing with young people's emotions early in life so we're not trying to rescue them when they're drowning in in the river to paraphrase the famous Desmond Tutu quote we need to go upstream and find out why they're falling in in the first place and look after them at that point to stop them falling into the river absolutely and I'm currently wearing a patch on my face and part of me is thinking oh maybe I should write you can talk to me about suicide

on my patch so people know but I'm also remembering that when I'm 43 now and when I was in sixth form I was in year 12 I was part of the magazine. We'd founded a magazine. And on the front page, I think, of our second episode, second edition, if you like, I'd written a feature about teen suicide. And I got my mate to pose with some pills on a desk. And, like, you know, I was having these conversations. I might see if I can dig it out to put it in the YouTube episode. But I'm still banging on about this stuff over 20 years later, but we need to keep banging on about this, don't we? Yeah, it's really important. You know, World Suicide Prevention Day is an

important reminder for everyone. I think these days are really important. They do, you know, have a significance and relevance. But it's important to recognise that kind of every day should be World Suicide Prevention Day as well. And, you know, I would look to any company or school or community organisation out there who may be thinking of doing something for World Suicide Prevention Day or during this month and say, are thinking of doing something for world suicide prevention day or during this month um and say are you just doing it for this day and this week and this month what are your plans once september's finished um and you know i think that's a really important message

to get across yeah and it's safe to use the word suicide it's safe to talk about it you know you're not going to give somebody an idea because if that's not something that they are considering they will they will be you know they will be taken aback with that and that's not something that you're giving them as an idea but being able to have that conversation in a way that feels safe might just be the difference that makes a difference. Oh, that question, we know from so many people who've been asked that question, are you considering suicide or are you thinking about ending your own life, that invariably it's been the question they've been hoping

someone would ask them and it's come as a huge relief and release for them to be able to answer that that question um you know it's a myth that it will plant the seed in someone's mind as you rightly say um and um it's so important you're more likely to save a life than than lose one by asking that question absolutely where can our audience learn more about you and about the jordan legacy i think the website is uh two places i suppose the website and and by connecting or following with me on on uh linkedin where i'll share a lot of fresh regular content and thoughts uh there um the website is the jordanlegacy.com. You'll find our mission and our strategy and all

about us and Jordan's story on there as well. So that'll give you a real feel for the work you do, we do, I should say. But also, you know, if anyone would like to support our work, we've got a menu there that says supporting us. and you can see our fundraisers what other people have done from running marathons to climbing mountains doing all kinds of things to support us and without that support um you know we wouldn't be able to continue doing the work that we do so whenever anyone makes a donation to us or does anything uh they're often surprised when they get an email from me the same day just saying look really appreciate uh this it means a lot to us because uh it does absolutely and that was going to be my next question but i will make sure that it's on

all the show notes and in the emails related to this as well thank you so much for your time steve marion thank you for inviting me really enjoyed the conversation and uh yeah appreciate the invitation thank you so much oh what an absolute privilege it was to speak to steve we had some time both before and after the recording and we kind of got you know plans to stay in touch and to think about how we can continue this conversation. Please, if you do feel moved by what we've been discussing, do consider donating to the Jordan Legacy so that their work can be furthered to aim and strive for the zero suicide stats that would be just incredible. If you are listening or watching this because you have lost somebody or you're worried about somebody

then I'm so sorry to hear that you find yourself in that position. If you're watching this because you are considering that life might not be worth living please do make an appointment with your GP or if you feel like you can't keep yourself safe please do make contact with emergency services because what we know is that the emergency services are not just for broken bones. They are for kind of places of safety and emergency assessment for people who cannot feel that they can keep themselves safe. Please know that hope is possible and that the right services, the right treatment can lead to you having a richly enjoyable life. And if you're listening or watching this because you've lost somebody you love, and I'm so sorry to hear that, please look after yourself.

Ask people for support. Ask people for care. And yeah, you can follow me on social media. I'm Dr. Marianne Trent. Please do follow Steve Phillips on LinkedIn too. Please let me know what you think to this episode by coming along to the free Facebook group, which is the Aspiring Psychologist Community

with Dr. Marianne Trent. And if you are grieving, you might find my book, The Grief Collective, useful. Thank you so much for your time in listening or watching this episode. If you're watching on YouTube, please do subscribe. Please do like, share and comment.

If you're listening on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts, please do rate and review. Thank you so much for being part of my world and I will look forward to bringing you the next episode, which will be available from Saturday at 10am on YouTube and from 6am on Mondays wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you, take care. With this podcast at your side, you'll be on your way to being qualified. It's the Aspiring Psychologist Podcast. With Dr. Marianne Trent. My name's Jana and I'm a trainee psychological well-being practitioner I read the clinical

psychologist collective book I found it really interesting about all the different stories and how people got to become a clinical psychologist it just amazed me how many different routes there are to get there and there's no perfect way to become one and this kind of filled me of confidence that no I'm not doing it wrong and put less pressure on myself so if you're feeling a bit uneasy about becoming a clinical psychologist I'd definitely recommend this just to put yourself at ease and everything will be okay. But trust me, you will not put the book down once you start.