The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast - How to talk to children about a death by suicide - Daddy Blackbird

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hi there, it's Marianne here. Before we dive into today's episode, I want to quickly let you know about something exciting that's happening right now. If you've ever wondered how to create income that works for you, rather than constantly trading your time for money, then you'll love the Race to Recurring Revenue Challenge with my business mentor, Lisa Johnson. This challenge is designed to help you build sustainable income streams. And whether you're an aspiring psychologist, a mental health professional, or in a completely different field,

Starting point is 00:00:32 the principles can work for you. There are also wonderful prizes to be won directly by Lisa herself. And if you join the challenge by my link, you can be in with a chance of winning a one-to-one hours coaching with me, Dr. Marianne Trent. Do you want to know more? Of course you do. Head to my link tree, Dr. Marianne Trent, or check out my social media channels, or send me a quick DM and I'll get you all the details. Right, let's get on with today's episode. How do we talk to children about death?

Starting point is 00:01:03 How do we talk to children about death when How do we talk to children about death when the death has arisen as a result of suicide? These are really difficult questions in parenting, but also in mental health. How do we get the tone right? What questions are okay to answer? What questions are okay to ask? How do we phrase things? How do we create a safe space? I am chatting through all of this and more with Caroline Rudehouse in today's episode. I hope you find this so useful. Hi, welcome along to the Aspiring Psychologist podcast. I am Dr. Marianne Trent, and I'm a qualified clinical psychologist. Today's episode is part of our special season, talking about suicide and trying

Starting point is 00:01:46 to normalise conversations surrounding it. This is episode two in our special series of three. They are all separate episodes, but you might well find it helpful to catch the other two if you do have time. So I know you're here because you have questions about how to do this and what is appropriate. So let's dive straight into the episode and I will catch you on the other side. Hi, I just want to welcome along our guest for today, Caroline Rudehouse. Hi, Caroline. Hi, Marianne. Thank you so much for your time in speaking with us.

Starting point is 00:02:19 Just want to firstly say that I was so sorry to learn of the death of your husband and the father of your children thank you I appreciate that did you want to tell us a little bit about him yeah absolutely so I I met Steve in the year 2000 we were set up on a blind date um which I wasn't happy about but then clearly was in the end um and we we hit it off straight away um Steve was quite uh quite a chilled out character which helped balance me out because I'm quite highly strung so we we kind of met in the middle very well but he was um full of energy and kindness and warmth and he had friends all over the world which was very appealing and he

Starting point is 00:03:07 was very drawn to speed sports motorbikes those sorts of things and he introduced me to to lots of those sorts of things and he had a love for travel as did I so we had a huge amount in common and yeah as I say we hit it off very, very quickly. And we spent a good few years together before we got married in 2005. And then started our kind of family life together beyond that. So in work, Steve worked for a field marketing agency, and his role was to look after teams of people who would was because he was very well known for being an amazing motivational leader and helping a lot of younger people to kind of get onto the career ladder giving all of his time coaching them supporting them encouraging them and being very motivational and inspiring so very much a positive person which again I was drawn to on a personal

Starting point is 00:04:27 level and I guess in later years as we talk about things like spotting signs when somebody's struggling once we'd started to have children I could see that energy reducing and that love for life and for work and for people generally which I put down to just being a knackered parent, really. And all the things that go with lack of sleep and parenting and getting older and those sorts of things. So with hindsight, I can look back and maybe think differently about that now. But yeah, that was Steve. Happy guy for most of the time that I knew him and that we were together thank you and before we started recording you told me that this had really come out of the blue this wasn't a case of of someone with an existing diagnosed depression

Starting point is 00:05:17 or that had kind of evidence that life didn't seem to be worth living this was someone who was hustling out the door in the morning telling you that they'd be picking up your child from Cubs like usual, and they'd see you then. And that's not what happened. Absolutely not. No, I had no idea that Steve was struggling at all. As I said, the energy had reduced in him, but there was no suggestion that he had any mental health difficulties or was considering suicide in any way. So it was the 12th of November 2018. He was starting a new role with a new client through this field marketing agency on that day um we were running around getting ready for for work and I was getting our two young children ready for school and nursery

Starting point is 00:06:10 Ada and Evie were nine and two at the time um Steve was getting ready for work even um just before he left for the for the day I had a sore throat which I mentioned to him um and he went flying up the stairs two at a time to grab me some throat sweets from the bathroom cabinet so that um you know just the way he would always be thinking of others and helping and then off he went just confirming that he'd pick Evie up from Cubs on his way home as he always did on a on a Monday evening um and I didn't I didn't give anything a second thought I had no need to until I had a phone call from his work saying that he hadn't arrived it was a about an hour away um so the assumption was that he'd his car had broken down maybe and he was

Starting point is 00:07:01 somewhere by the side of the road with no signal and that's why he hadn't notified anybody but as the day went on and there was no sign of him in the end I had to contact the police and register him as a missing person and that's when I went into full panic mode and that's when the the nightmare really began um the police were kind of not treating it as serious in any way because he had no history of mental health difficulties or no reason to be missing that would suggest he would be coming to any harm um but they they came on the Wednesday morning, two days later. And that's when I heard those 15 words that I'll never forget. And they said to me, we found him.

Starting point is 00:07:55 He's not alive. And it's clear that he's done it to himself. And that's when everything just kind of fell apart. And nothing really made sense ever again after that for me. Yeah. And even, you know, the phrasing of that, it doesn't sound hugely compassionate in terms of thinking about Steve as a person and a human and you as the wife and mother of his children. You know know that's yeah absolutely I had my daughter with me at the time she was two I had friends around me because we've been trying to work out how on earth we were going to try and find him um my mum was there so she broke down and and struggled to take on board that news as well um there wasn't a huge amount of compassion in many of the interactions that I had including things like the inquest for example where they read out

Starting point is 00:08:54 a huge amount of detail about the state of Steve's body when he was found in the back of his car which I had no idea was coming I was given no warning um and there's there's a lot of parts of of this story and different parts of the processes that come after a suicide notifying utilities and the kind of cold computers there's no responses that you get from people despite the circumstances so yeah that there's been a huge amount of moments that have been difficult and could have been made easier. But equally, I've experienced unbelievable compassion from people and from communities and groups of people that I wouldn't necessarily have expected to receive that from. And that's where my focus has had to be in the long run.

Starting point is 00:09:50 Yeah, absolutely. And I'm just so sorry that that's how you receive the news, probably at your front door, like no real warning or preparation. That's a lot. And that's a lot for you as a grown woman. I'm a mother to two children myself, and I know just how different developmentally a two year old and nine year old are, but how much they need their parents in so many different ways. How did you begin to be able to have those conversations? Probably is a separate question because of the different developmental ages.

Starting point is 00:10:31 How did you begin to have that conversation with with the eldest or the youngest absolutely that yeah there's a huge difference between the two and there still is because they're now 15 and 8 and um those gaps still exist massively so it's two different journeys I'm constantly trying to manage for them in those moments directly after I was told by police that Steve had died Ada who was as I say only two I vividly recall seeing her sat at her little white wooden table with her colouring with a police officer sat with her colouring too. And she seemed kind of self-contained. I don't even know if she was aware that there was anything going on. And I didn't have to worry too much about her in that moment. It was Evie, my nine-year-old, that I was desperately concerned about. And things were happening around me that I just wasn't in control of. Somebody from

Starting point is 00:11:26 safeguarding from her school turned up, she was at school at the time, and my best friend Emma contacted the charity Winston's Wish, which was a suggestion from the safeguarding person from school, and they gave her a bit of a script for me to be able to talk to Evie. I had no idea how you deliver news like this, let alone a death, but a death by suicide. She knew that Steve was missing because I'd had to explain it to her after a couple of days, but they had no idea what anything like this would be happening so armed with this kind of script and a few leaflets and pamphlets from this safeguarding person. I arrived at Evie's school and she had a she was standing out the front with the deputy head and she had a big smile on her face when she saw me coming because she,

Starting point is 00:12:26 that innocence of a child seeing their parents turn up at school. But as we went into the room and she could see my tear-stained face, she knew that it was not going to be good news. And from that moment, I was very clear that I had to be direct and honest and that's the the main advice that Winston's wish had given me and I had to say so it was something along the lines of daddy's been found and he's died and we won't be seeing him again his brain had stopped working properly and this was the beginning of that journey for me with Evie in particular of kind of drip feeding that information over a period of time now for Evie that took probably only a few months from start to finish I'd say that there's kind of these different stages which I can talk about in a moment. For Ada being two, that journey has taken years and just been drawn out across that period of time.

Starting point is 00:13:32 So that that first step of saying that Steve had died and he wouldn't be coming back was what I had to explain. And then it's kind of talking in terms that they would understand that it was something that daddy had done to himself. Evie had a very good understanding of mental health, thanks to conversations at school and learning that they do in PSHE sessions and those sorts of things. The next thing I had to do was talk about kind of why he may have done that. And we talked about mental health issues and people being unhappy and not knowing how to deal with that unhappiness or how to talk to other people about it. It was very early on that Evie asked me how he'd done it, which was the hardest conversation I've ever had to have with her, harder than telling her that he'd died, because

Starting point is 00:14:36 it felt like such a brutal thing to have to explain. Steve had suffocated himself with a plastic bag in his car. And to have to say that to a nine-year-old was horrific. But again, the advice from Winston's wish was when they ask, they're ready to know. And it's our responsibility as parents to deliver that news in the most considered and compassionate way and using language that they would understand. And that's what I was intent on doing whenever I needed to. So that whole kind of process with Evie, as I say, was done over the course of a few months. I'm still working on that process with Ada. We haven't got to the point yet where I've

Starting point is 00:15:27 explained to her what he actually did because she hasn't shown any need to know that information yet what she does know is her own understanding of mental health difficulties and how they can be so great that somebody can choose to take their own life or see that as the only option at least. She has said to me, there was one moment where I was walking her to school one morning and she came out with this really profound statement and she said it was something along the lines of men don't cry and they don't grieve and they really should because if they don't and they don't let the emotions out they can die and whilst it was a shocking thing to hear on the way to school when it wasn't the normal conversations that we would have it did give me a really good insight into how she was understanding

Starting point is 00:16:27 the conversations that we'd been having, not just between her and I, but also between Evie and her as well, and the three of us. And it was only actually the other day where she'd been hearing, when she hears the word suicide, it does prompt her to ask questions and start to get curious, as children do. She's eight years old. And she said to me the other day, Mummy, I don't want to know today, but at some point soon, will you tell me how Daddy died? And I said, absolutely, of course I will.

Starting point is 00:17:02 And then she went off back to her swing or her game that she was playing. And that was it. And I think I'm then left in tears. And as I have been over the course of many years on that day where she came up to me and said, for my birthday, could I have my daddy back? And I'm I don't know what to say, it's overwhelming. And then 10 seconds later, she says, actually, no, I want a unicorn. And I, I'm still crying an hour later, because of that initial thing that she's asked for that I can't give her, but she's moved on. And again, over, over the years, I've learned how both my children have received this information in different ways and then processed it in their own different ways Evie's much more of a deep

Starting point is 00:17:53 thinker she's a teenager she she has a much greater understanding of that permanence of loss and those sorts of things so yeah there's a there's a huge difference between the two of them, but there is this process that I've come back to time and time again of the different stages that are involved. Absolutely. Such powerful words you've shared with us. And I think I would just echo what you've said really about how quickly children can get full up and they will take away their little nugget that they've got from you. They will go away and digest that, maybe even across a few sleeps,

Starting point is 00:18:31 a few days, a few weeks. And then they'll come back to you when you're chopping some cucumber or something and come back to it again, ready for the next installment. And I think it's what you've demonstrated so nicely is always holding that open space of being willing to go where they need to, but stopping where they are at. So, you know, you could have said, sure, I'll tell you now, but that's not what she wanted. She very

Starting point is 00:18:55 quickly communicated and clearly communicated, I might be ready, I'm intrigued, but I want to know that that's within my control and that you, I guess, can manage that. Because as they get older, they think about our own kind of looking after us, don't they? And making sure that we're OK and kind of modelling back some of that parenting they've had from us. That's a really important point. Both of them are empaths, so compassionate, so caring about other people, particularly me. And they will often avoid saying something or asking something because they don't want to upset me. And I'm constantly reminding them that grief is sad. We can't get away from

Starting point is 00:19:40 that. It will be upsetting to have these conversations and we will move on afterwards and we will experience joy again and we will do all the things that make us happy but we have to have these conversations and we have to accept grief and we have to work through it together and I recall a really key point as well about trust as well that um I've I've come across so many people from the experiences and conversations I've had where they've lost a parent many decades ago and it was pushed under the carpet and they were told that it was a car accident or you know cancer or something because of the shame surrounding suicide and the difficult conversations that people would much rather avoid having. But then sometime later in life,

Starting point is 00:20:30 they've discovered the truth and that's completely shattered the trust that they have with those family members that could have been honest with them at the time. And the idea of that truth, that trust being lost between us just terrifies me um much more so than having to have honest conversations with them right now that they they seem to take on board unbelievably well um and I've had to learn this as a skill I've had to learn so many different elements of of this and know that I can be honest with them and that they will be okay. And they're growing and thriving and becoming more and more resilient with every conversation that we have and every challenge that they face. So I try to see these as opportunities to learn

Starting point is 00:21:19 and grow and get stronger, even though they're really sad. sad yeah and I think with the sadness um so my dad died in 2017 when my I think our youngest of very similar ages so he's just turned eight in June um so he was 18 months when my dad died and my eldest was four years old so neither of them actually remember my dad I don't't think. But, you know, I've always been clear that if they want to talk to me about him, and I cry, it isn't them that's made me cry, you know, it's the fact that I really, really loved him, I cared about him. And, you know, when we love someone, we might get upset upset but it's always okay to have those conversations even if it makes me cry does that make sense absolutely and and yeah we're exactly

Starting point is 00:22:13 the same I think they they would avoid at all costs anything that would upset me but I've had to keep on making that point that like you've, it's not you that's upsetting me. It's a sad thing when someone dies and you'll experience it again and again, unfortunately, as life goes on. So we can't avoid these conversations and we can't avoid being sad. But that equally means if we did try and avoid them, we never talk about that person um and we can't do that either so there's never going to be an ideal solution we can't take the pain away and have these conversations so we have to work through it in the best way that we can and I think that's where we've reached between the three of us yeah absolutely and I think one of the differences with suicide so in the grief

Starting point is 00:23:05 collective somebody talks about suicide as being like pouring acid on the wounds of grief because it kind of amplifies everything and it also takes away the opportunity to do some of the things that I recommend with children if you have got someone who's very unwell and a death is expected that actually when you when they're super young you sit and watch the bing bunny butterfly episode for example and that you start to as you're walking along and you see a dead mouse or a dead pigeon or a dead insect that you start to stop and take a look and actually think about the processes involved with a death and that it's permanent and that we don't come back that it's not like the cartoons we're not magically reappearing and I think what you lose with a suicide as well is so much of that preparation that you you're

Starting point is 00:23:59 not mentioning perhaps I didn't mention that grumpy was going to die but I'm making sure that my children have a developmental understanding of death. And I'm not using words like poorly, because then when I say, oh, baby, are you feeling poorly? They then begin to think, gosh, I'm going to die. You know, we're being, like you said, quite matter of fact with our words and and leaving them space to talk and to be curious and I think that's so important but it's then trying to kind of retrofit that in a suicide which is so so extra extra challenging absolutely I think like like you said at the start there I've heard suicide described as grief with the volume turned up and it absolutely is and the different extra emotions and challenges that it brings. But yeah,

Starting point is 00:24:52 you don't have that opportunity to prepare. But I guess that's the same with sudden accidents and those sorts of things as well. And I think perhaps it's a responsibility for us as parents to consider this at some point anyway. I mean, Evie in particular had experienced the loss of several grandparents. So she was conscious of the concept of death and people no longer being around, but nobody as close as her dad. So yeah, it was very much a retrofit. And it's those conversations afterwards that lead more into topics like mental health and self-care and taking care of ourselves so we don't end up in a similar position. I think one of the other complications with suicide is those statistics around people who have lost a loved one to suicide are more susceptible to mental health issues themselves and ultimately taking their own lives

Starting point is 00:25:54 or at least considering it and and so are their children there's studies to suggest that children who've lost a parent to suicide are three times more likely to take their own lives at some point. And these statistics terrify me. So rather than talking about the death quite so much, we talk about the need to take care of ourselves in an age appropriate way. And they do things like this at school as well. But yeah, we're constantly talking about needing to make sure we're being gentle with ourselves and being conscious of our emotions and all of those sorts of things, which I don't think I would have considered had this not happened. And I think if I'm desperately scrabbling around for a silver lining here, it's that

Starting point is 00:26:41 fact that both my children are very conscious of the dangers of um poor mental health and poor well-being poor physical well-being all those sorts of things and the the absolute paramount need to take our take look after ourselves and and look after one another Evie has since become a mental health ambassador at school and she goes talking to um primary schools and assemblies and things as part of this role to younger children on the subject of mental health and how we should be looking after ourselves and that I don't think is something that she would have done had this not happened um so yeah there's so proud of her and what she's creating i know you shared um a little short film with me that she'd been part of making as well and it was

Starting point is 00:27:30 so incredibly powerful you know it's shaping these little young lives but hopefully in a way that feels like it's building them as well absolutely yeah and and that that resilience um because the world's a tough place at times as as we know and unfortunately it's something they need to know too but yeah the the um animation that Evie uh was part of um creating was was sort of came about from some challenges she was having when she first started at senior school when she was 11 and she would hear people kind of laughing and joking about the topic of suicide saying you know I'll kill myself if I've got to sit through another lesson like that or kids would use that acronym KYS when they're messaging each other suggesting

Starting point is 00:28:21 they should you know kill yourself when they've done something embarrassing, which is horrendous, and it would be so upsetting for her. So she wrote a story about it. And she was really brave, and she approached the head of year at the school she was at at the time, and shared this story with them and they read it out at an assembly unfortunately it didn't have any impact at all and I think there were other elements of this school that we weren't too keen on when we when we first spoke to them about her going there and the extra support that she might need and they talked about all of the different facilities that they have to to kind of safeguard children and all the

Starting point is 00:29:09 well-being facilities that they have didn't seem to um pan out it felt like there was perhaps a little bit of lip service there so anyway this this story didn't land as Evie had hoped um and I mentioned that to some of my colleagues at work I work for a creative agency where there's some very clever animators and illustrators and they took Evie's story and turned it into a beautiful animation with stunning illustration and music and it was there was a voiceover recorded for it as well um and while they while that was being done Evie was finding this school more and more of a challenge for various reasons and I moved her to a different school where she immediately began to thrive and this is where she became a mental health ambassador and started just getting stuck into all of these different roles

Starting point is 00:30:06 there's an amazing well-being center where she can go at any point during the day and feel that sense of safety around her with people that she knows and trusts whether that's teachers or fellow students and I think from the very top from the senior leadership at the school, from the head down, they take it seriously. The whole subject of emotional well-being and mental health. It's built into everything that they they do, everything that they teach. And it's certainly not any there's no lip service there whatsoever so um Evie has now introduced the animation to this school and had an amazing response to it I've shared it um on my social channels and it's now being shown across the country um that's in schools um in assemblies it's being added to the curriculums

Starting point is 00:31:03 of different schools across the country but But there's also other settings and environments that are using it. So the NHS have built it into their nursing inductions in certain hospital trusts, different grief charities are using it. Mental health first aiders are using it in workplaces and line managers are using it with their training and those sorts of things. And it's all around this kind of sensitivity of language on the subject of suicide, whether that's for a child or for an adult. And that I am ridiculously proud of, with Evie being the instigator of this

Starting point is 00:31:42 and the one that made all that happen. Words. with Evie being the instigator of this and the one that made all that happen. Words. They can tumble out. As quiet as a whisper. Or as loud as a shout. Words. They can be mean. Hurtful comments or messages on a screen.

Starting point is 00:32:02 Words. They can make us cry. Especially when a loved one has died through suicide. Here's a letter full of words, written by a girl whose dad is now a blackbird. There was a time when I had two parents. I was young and I was confident that was the way life would be for us. But one day I got pulled out of class and saw my mum walking towards the school with my godmother. I was confused when I saw my mum's tear-stained face. She told me that my dad hadn't shown up for work and before anyone realized he was missing, he had died by suicide. This was the biggest shock of our lives. He had seemed pretty happy with life and had never mentioned feeling depressed, so it took months for me to even accept what had happened.

Starting point is 00:33:06 It took many more after that, for me to stop feeling guilty, every time I listened to the songs he liked to sing along to. I've missed out on summer holidays at the beach with him. I've missed out on having him in the audience at school shows. We've all missed out. So has Dad. I'm telling you this because I've heard jokes about suicide and depression at school. And this has really hurt me.

Starting point is 00:33:38 Take it from me, suicide isn't funny. It's not something to laugh and joke about. You may not know it, but your words can really upset people who have been affected by suicide. It's tough, you know, to hear people laughing about something that completely turned my world upside down. My dad died a few years ago now, but the memories of what happened are still a huge part of my daily life. Words matter. So think before you speak. Please make kindness a promise that you keep. keep oh amazing as a mummy a fellow human it just brings shivers down my spine it's amazing stuff and i just wanted to talk to your fear really so speaking as a qualified clinical psychologist who specializes in complex trauma and grief I would say that the the stats for increased probability

Starting point is 00:34:51 of someone ending their own life when it's been in their family is probably going to be in families where it's been shame-filled and not spoken about and where they've not been able to really express their emotions and ask questions without fear of the reaction the response or that they might be in trouble and I think that what I know about mitigating factors you are doing in abundance and what we know is it's the difference, being the difference that makes the difference for children and always knowing that they've got that safe space that's non-judgmental, that's compassionate, that they can bring their best selves to, but also their worst selves. And I often think with my children, you know, I will always love you. I don't always

Starting point is 00:35:40 like your behavior, but you can always talk to me whatever you're worried about and that mitigates so much to to the extent where I would say it mitigates it to kind of minimal um so I don't know if that's useful at own father took his life it could almost normalize it to a point where it becomes an option for them or they believe that it's an option for me if i'm having a bad day or i'm reacting badly to something that's happened or I'm upset about something and I I've worked very hard and researched a huge amount on how to to mitigate that we can never remove it completely because it's suicide is something that exists one way or another but I'm almost hopeful that through the experience we've had we can go the other way and we can learn that suicide yes it might be an option but there are a huge number of other things that we can look into doing that we are much more

Starting point is 00:36:54 conscious and aware of as a family now that we otherwise wouldn't have been um wouldn't have known about so yeah I'm hopeful that it's always okay to ask for help always yes absolutely um and I think that there's there's a lot of people around well I wouldn't say there's a lot of people I mean there's a few people around me that reinforce that message um my best friend for example who is the girl's godmother checks in in with them regularly and she'll do it in a way that works for them. So she'll send them a WhatsApp or, you know, see that they've been on Instagram recently or Evie has at least and send something funny to her or something that relates to a conversation we might have had. So we're kind of learning to operate on their level as well and have these conversations that they can relate to without turning into like embarrassing parent mode and trying to use language that just wouldn't work. So yeah, it's, it's,

Starting point is 00:38:02 it's a constant journey that I'm on and I'm, I'm lucky to have support from a few good people with too. Yeah, I'm so pleased to hear that you're's a very special thing to me so um I'm not particularly religious I don't believe in in reincarnation but I I'm open-minded about about the whole concept um and shortly after Steve died there was a a little boy blackbird that would always be in the back garden um and I'd started to notice that he would kind of hop right up to the back door um which was unusual um but I you know I was too busy thinking about other things to to think much of that but there were times when I'd think back to how Steve would talk about his mum and some of the beliefs that she had around kind of an older relative who had died and maybe had come back to visit as a bird or something. And my mum, again, not particularly into things like reincarnation, but when she'd see a butterfly, it would make her think of her mum and bring her some comfort so I started to look at this blackbird that was hobbling around the garden all the time

Starting point is 00:39:31 um and for some reason I started referring to him as daddy blackbird and I'd call the girls over and say look daddy blackbird's come to visit it almost felt like something nice to just say in amongst all the horror and sorrow. And they'd get quite excited to see him. And there were times when I'd be a bit pissed off when he turned up because I was busy washing up and doing all the millions of jobs that Steve would have been doing had he been there. And instead, that's potentially him hopping around and flying around free as a bird. But no, over time, I sort of developed this odd relationship where I'd be happy to see him in the back garden and I'd feel a sense of comfort when I did.

Starting point is 00:40:16 And I was able to bring him into conversation with the girls as well. And then there were long periods of time where we wouldn't see him, but he always seems to come back. I'm not sure if it's the same blackbird but it doesn't really bother me either way it's more around what it symbolizes and on his first on Steve's first birthday after he died we went to a garden center and we bought a china blackbird to put in the garden to fill those gaps when the real daddy blackbird isn't around. Meanwhile, I'd been kind of starting to write about my experiences just to get it out of my head and onto a piece of paper because writing is a passion for me. And I realised when I looked at what I'd written, it was almost like a series of chapters. And then I realised that a series of chapters actually sort of represents a book. And all of a sudden, when people were

Starting point is 00:41:12 saying to me, you should write a book about everything you've been through, I thought, oh, I think I have, or at least I've started to. So I continued with that. and there seemed to be only one title that I could give this book and it was Daddy Blackbird and it's in three sections it talks about the history of how we first got together and some of the amazing adventures that we had together as well as some of the challenges that we faced together. It talks about the horror, obviously, when Steve died and all the things that came after that. And then the third section is about the hope and all of the lessons that I've learned that I want to share with other people, particularly people in a position like me. And I've broken that down into three different sections.

Starting point is 00:42:06 And it's what I call my triangle of recovery. So I talk about the power of me and how I've drawn on the strengths I had already, but also developed new strengths and skills. Then there's the power of my children, which I've spoken about in depth and taking strength from seeing their resilience grow and thrive and all the amazing things that they're achieving. And then the last part of that is the power of my community and the people around me that have supported me from day one, but also the new connections and relationships I've built in more recent times.

Starting point is 00:42:53 And yeah, Daddy Blackbird is now a very special thing to me, not just the actual bird that visits every day in the garden, but the book that I've almost completed now. Well it sounds like it's a great read is that aimed at adults would you say? Yes I would say it is aimed at adults mainly as I say for people that have been through what I have but I've found in sharing all my different experiences and stories and the little anecdotes that help people understand what it's like to lose somebody to suicide. I think I've had so many people contact me to say that it's helped them get

Starting point is 00:43:44 through a difficult period where they'd perhaps been considering suicide. And then when they read about the horrific impact on the people left behind, they've perhaps started to think about alternative things that they can do. And that is really powerful. So that's another group of people that would greatly benefit from reading my book. But yeah, parents like me who have had to struggle with their own personal loss, but also the loss of their children and how to deal with that and the things I've got wrong that didn't work or the things that I've learned that really have worked and the place we're in now and just that message that it's hell

Starting point is 00:44:31 and you will go through the worst times and we had Covid to deal with as well in amongst all of that but there's hope and I remember one line in particular that I've included my book from a therapist that I saw once and I will never forget those words and I hope that my book does something similar for at least one person and carries some hope for them until a time where they can they can actually feel it themselves. Absolutely such powerful words and is it available on Amazon? It will be available on Amazon at the beginning of October. My intention is to publish it on World Mental Health Day, which is the 10th of October. I do have a website where I've got some free chapters available to have a read of now, though, so you can get an idea of whether it's something you want to know more about um great what's your website uh it's daddy blackbird www.daddyblackbird.com amazing thank you so much for your time and sort of throughout our discussion

Starting point is 00:46:00 there's been lots of different themes and the one that we've kind of alluded to but not mentioned is anger you know and i think that came through quite strongly when you were talking about Daddy Blackbird hopping about the garden and anger is a such a normal part of the grief process but I think with with suicide it can really feel amplified as well and then you can feel kind of very conflicted for feeling feeling anger towards somebody that's died but anger is a very important human emotion and it's understandable that we would be feeling that. Absolutely, anger is something that I've felt from day one particularly when I see how sad my children are and when I'm struggling in the middle of the night with a

Starting point is 00:46:46 poorly child on my own or there are moments where Steve should be there and isn't and I'm angry because he didn't share with me his issues and challenges that led him to where he was I'm angry for this sense of abandonment that I feel for me and for my children. There's so many reasons why I'm angry and the anger has led me to some very dark places over time and some very unhealthy habits as well which have not worked well for me and again I've come out the other side of those and hopefully others can learn from those too. But yeah, anger is still a part of my life, much less so than it was before. My children don't seem to come across angry in any way. And I'm very grateful for that so I try to keep my anger away from them as

Starting point is 00:47:48 much as possible I'll let them see it occasionally because I think it's right that they do and I don't want to kind of hide things and lie about things but there's um there's certain elements of my anger that they don't need to see um and there's yeah there's a funny a funny moment where I'd I'd written um a lot about my anger there's a lot in my book about my anger and how that's changed over time but I wrote about how when I first saw this black bird and I could see how it was free and it was kind of liberated from any any kind of restrictions in life and that that's maybe how I saw Steve now and I think there was a moment where the house was a mess and I was knackered and I was fed up and the girls were having a bad day and I saw the blackbird turn

Starting point is 00:48:38 up and I had some really dark thoughts about what I wanted to do to this blackbird and I wrote that in my book and when it was being edited by my proofreader he said whoa you can't say that um so he he helped me filter that down to more appropriate language um around how I felt about the blackbird but yeah it has it has softened over time I've learned more about how I need to understand the place Steve was in I've learned more about suicide and how it changes the way people feel and how mental health can impact people in such different ways which I didn't know anything about before so yeah anger has been massive and I actually shared the manuscript with somebody just like me who'd lost a husband to suicide when she had two young children not that long ago. And she read my manuscript and gave me some amazing feedback on it recently. And the biggest

Starting point is 00:49:39 point, other than things like she said, I can share it with my mum and she can now understand where I'm coming from but the biggest point was that she was nodding all the way through it when I talked about the anger and she'd never felt that she could show that anger or talk about it because there's so much sympathy for the person that's died and what a sad place they must have been in to get to that point that it feels inappropriate almost to talk about how you're angry with them and we don't want to blame them and we don't want to bring about shame but anger still exists because of the circumstances that we find ourselves in. It really does. And, you know, we think about anger as being a secondary emotion. So something else always comes first. And the fact

Starting point is 00:50:30 that you're not seeing that in your girls at the moment, I think, again, reinforces what a great job you're doing at helping them recognise and discuss their primary emotions. So maybe they are feeling abandoned. Maybe they are feeling disappointed. Maybe they are feeling abandoned maybe they are feeling disappointed maybe they are feeling sad maybe they're feeling jealous of their peers who still have both parents and when we're able to properly tap into those primary emotions there's less need for the secondary emotions um and again just shows me what a great job you're doing i think that's really helpful though what you what you've said there and I think the the different emotions that you you've listed um are really I mean there's endless emotions that we can talk about but it's good to have a broader vocabulary of emotions that that you can help

Starting point is 00:51:16 children to to use because for me it's been sad and angry a lot of the time and I need to remind myself that there's a lot on that scale in between and and they need to know that too and like you say that that kind of maybe resentment towards friends who've got the most amazing dad and and they don't have that um and moments in the future when Steve isn't there to walk them down the aisle when they're getting married and those are moments where anger might appear or any of those other emotions and we're not out of the woods now and we never will be but by equipping ourselves with coping mechanisms to deal with all of these different emotions I'm hopeful that we've got a decent future ahead of us. I really, I feel so certain of that. It's been an absolute pleasure speaking with you.

Starting point is 00:52:12 Keep doing what you're doing, both for the community, but for yourself and your girls. I can't wait to read Daddy Blackbird when it's available. And I will share that freely on my networks as well once it's published. But thank you so much for your time, Caroline. Thank you. I really appreciate the opportunity to talk about all of this and your lovely approach to listening and understanding. Well you're so welcome it's been an absolute pleasure and it's

Starting point is 00:52:38 such an important conversation to have and I'm hopeful that this episode will trickle through where it needs to, it will be listened to and watched by health professionals, but also by, by people who are interested in learning about this stuff and might be experiencing, you know, some of the stuff that you've been through too. Yes, thank you. I'm hopeful that it can help somebody well thank you just before we finish could you tell us where people can connect with you on socials Caroline yes absolutely um I talk frequently on LinkedIn so I can be found there I don't think there's many other Caroline Rudehouses around um so yeah I'd love to connect with people on LinkedIn. And my website again is www.daddyblackbird.com where you can connect with me there too. Thank you. Oh, what an incredibly powerful episode.

Starting point is 00:53:36 What a real privilege it was to speak to Caroline. Please, if the conversations we had today and the book, which is going to be published very soon does resonate with you do go and follow her on LinkedIn. If you have enjoyed this episode please do rate and review on Apple Podcasts. Please do subscribe on YouTube and follow the show on Spotify. Please also when thinking about grief do bear in mind one of my books The Grief Collective which gets lovely feedback on Amazon and And if you have read that already, I would be so grateful if you consider rating and reviewing that on Amazon and or Goodreads. If you're an aspiring psychologist or mental health professional, please do check out the Aspiring Psychologist Collective book and the Clinical Psychologist

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Starting point is 00:55:34 with dr marianne my name's yana and i'm a trainee psychological well-being practitioner i read the clinical psychologist collective book i found it really interesting about all the different stories and how people got to become a clinical psychologist it just amazed me how many different routes there are to get there and there's no perfect way to become one and this kind of filled me of confidence that no I'm not doing it wrong and put less pressure on myself. So if you're feeling a bit uneasy about becoming a clinical psychologist I'd definitely recommend this just to put yourself at ease and everything will be okay but trust me you will not put the book down once you start.

The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast - How to talk to children about a death by suicide - Daddy Blackbird

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