The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast - How to thrive spending time alone with Francesca Specter - Alonement Author

Episode Date: July 3, 2023

Show Notes for The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast Episode: How to thrive spending time alone – with Francesca SpecterThank you for listening to the Aspiring Psychologist Podcast. For a variety of reasons in psychology we might find ourselves needing or choosing to spend large chunks of time by ourselves alone. But this can be frowned upon by others and also conjur up tricky thoughts and feelings for us too. In today’s episode I am joined by Times Book of The Year Author, Francesca Specter where we discuss how to understand and Nail spending time by yourself. I wish I’d had access to this episode when I was an Aspiring psychologist.I’d of course love any feedback you might have, and I’d love to know what your offers are and to be connected with you on socials so I can help you to celebrate your wins! The Highlights:(00:00): Overview(01:19): Welcome and Context (03:22): Welcome to Francesca (03:47): What is alonement?(04:55): How we met(05:10): Why is this an important conversation in psychology? (06:14): Why being alone is scary(07:07): Our tolerance for boredom (09:01): Loneliness and mindless scrolling (10:03): What does the state of alonement feel like?(10:44): Differences to loneliness(11:57): Extroversion and introversion (13:25): Normalising alonement (15:25): Alonement and the Psychology profession(19:32): Old habits and patterns can be a useful crutch but….(22:16): Confidence and courage to explore new local areas (23:25): Marianne’s unusual USA cinema experience (26:02): Main character syndrome (26:37): Chats about cauliflowers (27:22): Alonement – Francesca’s book(29:47): For future versions of ourselves who need it (30:51): Learning to emotionally regulate (31:52): Research into time alone and perceptions (32:46): The accidental breakup manual (34:29): Tips for starting out in alonement (39:19): The empowerment of alone (40:24): Connecting with Francesca (41:29): Thanks to Francesca (41:58): Summary and close Links:➡️ To connect with Francesca Specter head to: https://www.francescaspecter.co.uk/ and https://francescaspecter.substack.com/ and https://www.instagram.com/chezspecter/ 💝To support me by donating to help cover my costs for the free resources I provide click here: https://the-aspiring-psychologist.captivate.fm/support➡️ To check out The Clinical Psychologist Collective Book: https://amzn.to/3jOplx0 ➡️ To check out The Aspiring Psychologist Collective Book: https://amzn.to/3CP2N97  To check out or join the aspiring psychologist membership for just £30 per month head to: https://www.goodthinkingpsychology.co.uk/membership-interested Get your Supervision Shaping Tool now:

Hi there, it's Marianne here. Before we dive into today's episode, I want to quickly let you know about something exciting that's happening right now. If you've ever wondered how to create income that works for you, rather than constantly trading your time for money, then you'll love the Race to Recurring Revenue Challenge with my business mentor, Lisa Johnson. This challenge is designed to help you build sustainable income streams. And whether you're an aspiring psychologist, a mental health professional, or in a completely different field,

the principles can work for you. There are also wonderful prizes to be won directly by Lisa herself. And if you join the challenge by my link, you can be in with a chance of winning a one-to-one hours coaching with me, Dr. Marianne Trent. Do you want to know more? Of course you do. Head to my link tree, Dr. Marianne Trent, or check out my social media channels, or send me a quick DM and I'll get you all the details. Right, let's get on with today's episode. On today's episode, I am joined by Francesca Spector, who is a journalist and

author of Alonement. We're thinking about how to do things by yourself more often with joy and in a way that feels really enriching. These are really interesting ideas in psychology, both in undergraduate, master's study, and even in postgraduate doctoral courses, and for that matter, relevant experience roles, means that we can find ourselves starting afresh at different stages of our lives. Stay tuned right to the end for Francesca's top tips for how to begin to be more comfortable with spending time by yourself, even if you're in a relationship or have good support. With this podcast at your side, you'll be on your way to being qualified. It's the Aspiring Psychologist Podcast with Dr. Marianne Trent.

Hi, welcome along to the Aspiring Psychologist Podcast. I'm Dr. Marianne Trent and I'm a qualified clinical psychologist. So people have been in contact with me recently to discuss what to do about doctoral courses and to discuss whether to accept jobs that are, you know, perhaps a couple of hours away or more from where their current lives are and what their current support systems are. And I want to be able to add to the narrative so that when people are making decisions about jobs, that they can do so by being empowered to know that it's okay to do this by themselves. And in that regard, I wanted to invite along a real expert in being alone and being comfortable with that. And so our guest for today is Francesca Spector, and she is a journalist and author of a wonderful book called Alonement. And I really hope that you'll find this episode useful, perhaps for your own uses, if you're starting out or maybe going to be starting out a new chapter of your life in future, but also for client work as well so if people are coming to you with issues of loneliness then how you can think about empowering them to feel more confident in being

alone and when to listen to those feelings of loneliness and to to forge and form connections and plan activities with others so for for many reasons, I hope you'll find it really useful. Francesca is wonderful to listen to and to speak with. And I felt so uplifted from our conversation. So I hope that you will do too. I look forward to catching up with you on the other side. I just want to welcome our guest for today, Francesca Spector. Hi, Francesca. Hi, Marianne. So you are a journalist, but you're also an author of a book that we're going to talk about a little bit later. But your specialism is or has become for one reason or another, about how to be alone, or how to not

be part of a couple or a relationship and how to do it well. Is that right? You know, it's so funny because it can be interpreted in so many different ways. I think the word alone, a lot of people still see it as synonymous with single. And the fact is, I think because I've been predominantly single for most of the past four years since I started writing about this subject, people are naturally making that conflation. I guess the way that I like to think about it is the ideas of alonement about how to spend time alone healthily and how to balance that with our natural desire for social time as well I think that being single can be a really fertile ground to explore that it's not the only life situation as we'll talk about in this podcast but one of those situations where it becomes a really good area to explore one's natural tolerance for time alone and how to make that a bit better and a bit more enjoyable so yeah it's it's really it is very open to interpretation and for a lot of people that's

when they discover my book and my podcast and my platform when they are in a period of being single yeah absolutely and one of the reasons I wanted to invite you on we've worked quite a lot together in terms of guest expert for your journalism pieces which I've loved being part of so thank you for that thank you it's been so lovely working with you thank you you're welcome one of the reasons I wanted to bring you on is because psychology can be what feels like quite a solo pursuit because it's it's you and your career and you're having to make decisions that might be in isolation of those around you. And in fact, one of the decisions I made was sort of to

decide to split up a relationship because I wanted, I knew where I was going and I knew it would involve me having to find new routes and new connections and trying to make my own way. But it means that quite often people are restarting or starting a new chapter of their life, and they're doing it in a way that feels like they might be quite isolated or sometimes even they're having to move to the other end of the country, either for a job offer or for a course offer. And it might mean either not living with their family or commuting back to their family or just just even if you are moving with your family trying to start over again

it's really really complicated it is and I think there are so many things worth doing in life there are so many things that are the most probably in the most self-actualizing things that you might do, whether that's being able to travel or live abroad for a period or pursuing something like psychology as a profession. A lot of those things, they require overcoming some sort of fear of being alone. And I don't think we really speak enough about how often that fear even whether you know whether it's named or not is the thing that actually stops people from pursuing their dreams and then people you know and then further down the line you know 10-20 years it's like oh I never did this because of so and so and I think that that resentment's probably loaded in the wrong place I think the first thing to tackle is, right, why is being alone so scary to begin with? Absolutely. And I guess I'm thinking

about how, especially over the last few years, we've all become not at all tolerant to the idea of being bored. And, you know, we've all become pretty ADHDhd about our phones you know and it's like it's thought that it's as addictive as crack isn't it having a smartphone um and you know someone was talking um the other day about being on a being on a train for three hours and they observed this older chap who just peacefully sat and watched you, the scenery unfold for those three hours, because he didn't either didn't have a mobile or didn't choose to use it. And in contrast to the people that were speaking, they were on their phones, they had their tablets, they had, you know, music to listen to. It was like they couldn't bear to have that unstructured time of being

just alone, they had to be part of something how how's your take on that yeah well firstly I don't know how much I believe in the idea of boredom I know it sound like a sort of you know parents sort of saying this to a child um you know sort of complaining about being bored but I just think there are so many things that we have this wealth of information, entertainment online and everywhere else. You know, we have, I'm sounding really old here. You know, we have public libraries. We have, the whole world is very, very stimulating

and exciting when we have the chance to experience it. And I think the problem is we've normalized a level of as you say a level of noise which is so distracting without allowing us to go into any depth and I think I think it's crazy that our you know our attention spans are sort of evolving into a TikTok length um period of time it. It's really crazy. And, you know, I definitely can speak from my own experience. When I find myself feeling the most lonely, I'll be going on Instagram the most, but then inexplicably, like ignoring all the WhatsApps from my close friends or not feeling like I have time to reply to a voice note but scrolling for hours and hours and I think it's that sense of I don't know it's like a sense of sort of calm and like

groundedness you need to get to to be able to actually find this stuff engaging in a way that feels nourishing not just sort of distracting to the point that, like, you know, it's actually more like a crutch. But I think that that's, it's why that I say that with, with alonement, with, you know, which, which alonement just in and of itself just means kind of time alone that's positive and fulfilling and nourishing the opposite to loneliness but I think to get to the state of alone month the sounds very that sounds very enlightened doesn't it but you know just to get to any positive alone time space you need to have a grounding practice like something like breath work meditation doesn't have to be as you know it doesn't have to sound as lofty as that you know walking it doesn't have to sound as lofty as that, you know, walking by yourself, reading, whatever.

Something that will take you away from that frenetic, distracted state to a bit more of a sort of slow exhaling state that then you can enjoy things a bit more and actually be a bit more comfortable in your own company to then be able to sort of think about the bigger periods of time you might spend by yourself. Yeah, yeah yeah absolutely and and I guess it's thinking about how you want to be alone isn't it so alone isn't the same as lonely and if you feel lonely it's perhaps a sign that you can do things differently yeah absolutely I mean I think it's worth saying like you can feel alone months and you can feel loneliness in the same day hell you can probably feel them in the same hour it's you know it's really I think it's funny because when I started out um mostly what I spoke about was almost you know how, how to make your alone time better. So, you know, how to plan in solo dates into your schedule, how to actually, you know, think proactively about what you're doing. All of that, you know, a little bit like also crossing over with the self-care but actually as my thinking has evolved as I've had more conversations about

this spoken to more experts I think a lot more of that is in the balance and acknowledging that for instance you know I come to this as from the perspective of a natural extrovert and I you know I say natural because I think that there is you know scientific um evidence you'll know more about this than me that you know you know genetically you are wired one way or the other towards extroversion or introversion I am more wired towards extroversion so I know that actually a big important thing for me safeguarding against loneliness is sort of planning ahead my week and thinking okay like how much time am I going to have with others this week how many how much quality time time how am I going to get that into my day whether that's the

yoga class I'm doing at lunchtime or whether that's you know meeting up with a friend going and sitting on someone's sofa one evening and I think it's really just being aware that both of those can happen and not sort of almost, I don't know, not being so self-critical about those times where you are sitting alone on a train and you feel the need to pick up your phone, just I'm not in this sort of frenetic state of not really appreciating my alone time in the nourishing way that I should or would want to. Absolutely it's giving yourself permission to just enjoy that moment and open up that book perhaps and not feel guilty about that and not worry about what other people might be thinking or saying right because I mean that's another element that comes into it I think that quite often even if we're alone at home it's really funny it's like the sort of we're almost imagining what people might be saying especially I think trigger times like a Saturday night or New Year's Eve is the big one um even though I don't know about you I've

hated most New Year's Eves and I really want to spend it alone yeah it's just such it's such a thing it's such a universal thing and everyone drags themselves out and I just yeah we sort of imagine that and I think that actually the more we normalize conversations about this and we always the more we open it up and make it a bit sociable. Like, oh, I just had a really great train journey, read a book, you know, stared out the window, and then someone's like, oh, that sounds good, I might do that. You know, we're social beings in a lot of ways,

and I think that actually normalising aloneness for each other can be quite a healthy thing to do as well. So you almost, then the next time you're sitting there alone on a train we're using that um example you know even alone on a Saturday night you're kind of thinking oh like you know I don't know Emma did this whoever Emma is but you know Emma did this last Saturday and she had a great time like maybe you know we can chat about this we can relate about this this is not a weird state of being this is actually something I need as much as much as I need my you know Friday happy hour drinks whatever absolutely absolutely let's normalize

alonement for sure and at this time of year people who are getting on to doctorate courses in psychology are sometimes having to decide whether potentially to accept a place that means that come September, they will be moving possibly hours away from everything they currently know. What would be your advice about how to navigate that period well I mean so assuming assuming this person makes the decision to to then go I think that it is it is a very difficult decision um to begin with I think that we are so we're told from god we're told from like you know first years of primary school you know we're taught social skills we're taught how to be around others um you know we're taught rightfully obviously the you know the the importance of friends family but we're not taught solitude skills and so we're not taught the skills to deal with a scenario like that where you're like oh wow i really am away

from my support system no one ever gave you know yeah okay we're told to told to be ambitious we're told to pursue our dreams but actually no one gave me the skill set to be able to navigate this scenario so I think even just beginning if that feels like a daunting decision that you've made starting with okay that is that is hard and you know so socially we're not really equipped to do that um you know to begin with it is it is it is natural to feel scared but then I think that there is so often I think people will say that they've come to a state of I don't know increased alone time whether that's through a breakup whether that's through living alone for the first time whether that's through I don't know a pandemic you know

in recent history where they've had that time and it can be a really fruitful time to learn a bit more about yourself it can be really exciting and I think that knowing that that might be inherent too and just I guess thinking a bit more proactively about you know okay so my schedule back home or back where I'm coming from might have been dictated by you know maybe going to the I don't know you know going to the pottery class that all my friends do even though I'm not really that into pottery or like I'm doing everything that my immediate friendship group or you know family kind of fancy doing but that's not something that necessarily is how I would live my life and just thinking about this kind of um blank canvas is okay scary because blank canvases are scary but also an exciting fertile prospect you know I think that that is it always is an

opportunity even though we don't frame it that way um in society and but you know I think also what I said about balance as well I think that so you know some people are natural introverts and honestly I've had you know my cousin for instance he is amazing in his own company he's funny because he's super confident super you know life of every party but loved the pandemic and he really took that as a huge opportunity to just lean into all the you know watching all the films he likes taking really long walks if you are if you are wired a little bit more like me um and you are more towards the extra version and you think okay I'm really going to struggle because this is just

naturally what I need I think it's really going back to square one and thinking okay so I want to do these nice things alone I want to make the best thing best of my time but like also I do need you know I do need to see someone three evenings a week whatever like we all have different sort of balances or I do need maybe I don't know a community activity at least once or twice a week and thinking what that might be and just being a bit more proactive within the obviously it depends where you are but within the realms of what you have possible like thinking about this as like almost a logic problem because I think it's so easy easy to think about to feel when you feel a bit lonely and when you leave it too long to to think about this as a sort of very personal very isolated state that no one ever has

experienced whereas if you can think about it a bit more proactively a bit more detachedly and you know obviously easier said than done but like almost anticipating these issues then that can be a really good state to then just put in the framework that you need to be able to enjoy social time and solitude time alongside each other absolutely and as you talk I'm thinking gosh I wish I'd had this alternative narrative available to me when it was my time to be a trainee clinical psychologist actually because I spent many of my weekends certainly in the first year coming back you know an hour to where my parents lived and seeing my friends that lived more locally and yes I've got

some I had some really fond memories of um you know going to my normal Saturday morning Pilates class and then catching up with my friend and having um a cup of tea together and you know, going to my normal Saturday morning Pilates class and then catching up with my friend and having a cup of tea together and, you know, spending time together. And it meant that I got to see my dad and my mum or my dad's passed away now. So it's kind of, you know, it's nice. But if I'd had the idea that I could just be by myself or, you know, join a local class and learn something, connect more to the people around me, you know, bear to tolerate meeting new people, making new connections, rather than just leaning as a crutch on my old ones. You know, I don't know what that would have been like. It's hard. And I think, you know, it's difficult where you do have that, you know, that pull of, you know, friends and family back home.

And it is, you know, that's one really normal coping mechanism to be going back a lot. But, you know, I suppose it's obviously like case by case basis but like I think almost being able to sort of I don't know I I I was the same like it's actually making me think of my first year at university um I I was going home quite a lot um and it means I don't think I ever made any I've made two friends from university, actually, two very close friends, which is great because, you know, how many friends do you need in adulthood, really, you know, as long as you've got the quality ones. But I do sort of regret not having that university experience because I was going back and forth all the time.

And I wish, like specifically, I'm thinking about, I was at university in Leeds for my undergrad and I'm like I didn't go and walk the Yorkshire Moors like I know it sounds like a ridiculous thing to be but I'm probably not going back to walk the Yorkshire Moors but I really wish I'd sort of got I'd celebrated where I was I think the chance to live somewhere else uh for a bit is really exciting and I really wish I'd sort of connected with the environment a bit more and even I don't know I think that if you know you've got your solid ground of people to come back to and you know that it's not necessarily like you need to make your friends for life in this place I think even leading with like okay what do I want to do in this local area you know because it's maybe because it's local and it's got these

specific things or what do I want to like what kind of identities do I want to do in this local area? You know, because it's maybe because it's local and it's got these specific things or what do I want to like, what kind of identities do I want to try on for a bit? Leading with that. And then either you'll meet people there, you know, if you're going to a class or something or, you know, an exercise or whatever, or you can say to people,

oh, like I'm going, do you want to come with me? And obviously that's a really bold thing to do, but actually it works quite well. I find like I've been, I was living in Lis for um four months at the end of last year coming into this one and I found a really wonderful thing about um about expats is that they're so used to the potential for loneliness in situations that they're they're able to do that it's like quite cool American things but oh yeah I'm going to the beach welcome to come people follow because like how often are we proactive in this life how often do we actually wait more often for the lead of other people so I think you know even if it's not a case of

needing to replace friends and family back home that can be a really again that that fertile space can be something about just you know doing you for a bit and seeing who might follow and who might not it's funny you mention Americans there um in 2003 I was backpacking around the world with my friend for six months and we found ourselves in San Diego um and she got very very unwell just had to lay in bed for a bit and she was like seriously don't just don't just watch me be unwell I'm gonna be okay I just need to rest I need to sleep yeah and there's tiny rooms as well you're probably like okay maybe maybe there's my time to leave oh yeah she's like you just you go out and I'll see you in a bit um I was like okay so I went to the cinema um I can't even remember what I saw um

but I was I was sitting in the cinema by myself which is actually the perfect activity to do by yourself because you're not supposed to speak during during performances anyway um and there's a chap on the on the just in front of me who's American and he was with what looked like his girlfriend and he was like oh hi like do you want to come sit with us and I was like no no no I'm okay and uh he said oh my my name's Brian and I was like oh hi Brian no, no, I'm okay. I'm all right. And he said, oh, my name's Brian. And I was like, oh, hi, Brian. And we sort of ended up chatting. And then he said, oh, at the end of the performance,

the end of the show, he said, I know this is really, I'm going to drop the American accent now, but this is really forward and really weird, but did you want to come out for dinner with me tomorrow? I really like you. And I was like, I'm really'm really sorry Brian I would love to but I'm going to Mexico tomorrow it's like the best the best to know but I often wonder what would have happened you know if I'd gone out to dinner with Brian like who knows was Brian

attractive he wasn't unattractive yeah he wasn't unattractive but yeah yeah it's like almost I was partly was pleased I didn't have to go because like you know but you know I think just clearly he was better at yeah creating opportunities and seeking those and being quite in the moment I guess yeah yeah um I think definitely there's an American confidence confidence there that we don't necessarily have. But then it's so easy to say. But, you know, I've had solo trips in Paris and more recently Florence where, honestly, I've met too many people. And I think that there's something about if you're, you know, if you're by yourself I don't know if you've ever had that where you've gone to a friend with sorry gone to a party with a friend that you or you know with a partner where you're you're just they're not particularly they're not particularly outward facing person and you

end up sort of in this weird thing where you are the pair of you and you don't actually meet people it's harder to meet people because you sort of come as a two when you're by yourself in the world like moving around things happen in a way that you know I think we talk you know there's this whole social media narrative around main character syndrome but like you sort of you are the main character and you do have adventures in a way that you just don't expect because people do feel like they can kind of come up and you know ask you to join them for dinner which you know is polarizing I think definitely at the cinema that's a very strange thing to do but you you have these stumble upon occasions and I think we sort of underestimate how much that might happen if we haven't actually been in the

experience of being you know backpacking solo or whatever absolutely and I love a random chat to somebody like one of the things I missed during the pandemic was all the conversations about, you know, cauliflowers and things in Asda or Tesco because strangers just stopped speaking to each other. I think with the mask and with the fear, we just didn't do it in the same way. And I just love chatting to random people that you meet along the way and spreading a little bit of joy and learning a bit about strangers as you go about your day I really like that um but not everybody likes that I know it's perhaps part of my alonement spectrum as well but um could you tell us a little bit about your wonderful book please I know that it was the time one of the times books of the year in 2021 wasn't it yeah very very um yeah very flattered when that

came out in November 2021 um so yeah it's so alone month is really funny because people quite rightly assume that um it was a something I came out with in the pandemic that that concept was born but actually it it came out of a breakup um in which happened at the end of 2018 so I'd well I'd broken up with a man who was you know perfectly wonderful but and you know who I thought I would marry but it became quite clear as we got to that sort of you know finish line stage that actually that probably wasn't going to be the case for us so I had to confront this whole different this whole path that I just wasn't expecting to and and I was living alone and I I you know we'd been planning to move in together a lot of things were changing and in that process I was finding it I was finding it very hard and also because

um I was at a time where a lot of my friends were getting engaged and were living with partners. And I felt very kind of alone in this life stage. And I realized that I had this fear of spending time by myself. And I was like, wow, this is, this is really, this has really motivated me. This, you know, this, this was the thing that, this was the fear that kept me in that relationship that wasn't quite working out this is the thing that keeps apparently you know sending me into scrolling dating apps on Sunday nights this is the thing that's making me um I don't lean on friendships or connections that aren't quite working for me and I was like I don't I don't want to be dictated by this fear

you know I'd rather sort it out. And so I spent about a year, hilarious that this happened pre-pandemic, but about a year learning to be comfortably alone in my own company and sort of blogging and, you know, writing about that, but also just doing it on a sort of very private level. And I came to the point where,

I think I'd spoken about it with so many people and I'd I don't know I'd I'd had this conversation with so many people where it did feel like they weren't just saying yeah yeah yeah they were also saying wow we we relate um and I'd actually in the meantime started a podcast around that and I was like wow I think that this needs to be this needs to be a book. It's amazing that this manual wasn't there for me. And I kind of would want it to be there for any version of me going through this again. So anyway, so that was where I started.

I think I began with honestly just coining the word alone month. So I was like, right, okay, I need to have a shorthand for when I say to people, I spent, you know, I spent a week, a weekend evening alone and they don't say, oh, like, oh, poor you. You know, it's not a situation of pity, it's one of triumph.

And I started exploring things like, for instance, the work of Dr. Virginia Thomas. She's a researcher in the US. She specializes in something called solitude skills. So learning skills to be comfortably alone, like a lot of the stuff I've touched upon in this episode. So learning to balance social time and solitude and learning to sort of schedule ahead alone time into your calendar

learning to communicate to others when you need healthy alone time learning to emotionally regulate so doing things like meditation journaling get into that grounded state where you can enjoy other states of alone time without I don't know panicking panicking so much it's it's intolerable um and and all that stuff was was what ended up going into the book um and then as I say so I had the podcast and I still have the podcast and I was having a lot of conversations with people like Alan de Botton the um author Paul Nabel uh former uh Vogue editor Alexandra Shulman, and getting lots of different perspectives from people at different life stages, different ages, different relationship statuses about how they had alone time in their own life, how it factored in, how they liked it, how they

didn't, how it had changed. And the book ended up as this sort of compilation of that so it was part memoir part my own reported experience part sort of expert interviews that I'd done through the podcast and done specifically for the book and part you know sort of research into these things so really just interesting studies like for instance one of them is something called the spotlight effect, which is a phenomenon, I think, discovered or at least coined by a researcher called Thomas Gilovich. And he discovered that actually when we're alone in a crowd, we overestimate how much other people are looking at us by quite some way and I think just having that having that research having that phenomenon in your head and knowing that when you're eating alone at a restaurant or something like that you really you think that you're sitting there being observed by everyone um but you're really not and and it's just it's a comforting thing um and also all of that came in together as this deep dive into alone time that has become this manual this

handbook I think it's the accidental breakup manual that people seem to get handed by their their close friends when they go through a breakup um although as I say it's it's relevant to all uh and yeah that's that's uh and I guess in the uh wake of pandemic, or at least, I mean, it came out during the pandemic. It came out in March 2021. That took on a whole new resonance, both for people navigating more alone time than they'd ever been used to before. Or on the flip side, people who were, you know, I don't know, cramped into a one bed flat with their partner or, you know, in a house with their kids homeschooling experiencing alone time or a lack of it in a whole different way and and putting it on a pedestal in a way that they might not have before absolutely and well done for the work you're doing and you know I

know that I wish it had been around you know know, earlier in my life. Because other than a four year relationship, I spent most of my adult life single, actually, and trying to feel confident enough to go out and eat dinner by yourself. I'm definitely there now. Now I've got children, but I'm married. But I still do really enjoy and enjoy mindfully sitting in a cafe eating by myself or having a drink and watching other people and just you know being part of something but enjoying that and knowing that that's that's okay um have you got any just before we finish have you got any tips or advice for, yeah, for how people can begin to tentatively explore alone-ment? Yeah, absolutely. So I would say baby steps. So, you know, the first thing is to be able to say, spend, I don't know, 10 minutes alone a day. Something that I do, I've done for, getting on for about two years now,

is I use the Calm app to do a 10 minute meditation every morning. And that just means that it's just this little thing I internalize that knows that I can sit and breathe with my eyes closed and I'm safe and that's okay. And it just, it's in the back of my mind as I go throughout my day. And honestly, I feel very strange if I haven't done it. So doing that or something like journaling in the afternoon and the evening, you know, getting your thoughts out on paper. And I think that's a really good exercise as well,

because you start to listen to yourself a bit more you start to a take a bit more of a curiosity in your own interests needs thoughts whatever um and be just it's it's almost like I think it's it's allowed for me to sort of get my negative thoughts out as well and be aware of my inner critic a bit more I think just doing things like that which help you sort of meet yourself in a sort of non-threatening time limited way are really important to create that foundation and I think you know once you started practicing that a bit more and again you know things like you know things like going for walks without headphones can be really nice just on a lunch hour something like that once you're sort of practicing that a bit more I think you will naturally as I did you'll get a bit more curious to think you know how how far can I take this you know can I do those things where I don't

know if you maybe you see someone sitting in a cafe by themselves and you think oh I could never do that challenge yourself a bit you know it's a bit like exposure therapy go and have a coffee by yourself and and see how that is and you know it might a bit like exposure therapy go and have a coffee by yourself and and see how that is and you know it might be uncomfortable the first time uh or the second time obviously and do try and try to pick a place where you maybe you know you know the barista maybe or you know it's a nice environment with a comfortable chair or something like that way or a sofa where you can go and sit um and you'll find yourself going back and getting a bit bolder um and I think you know from there on it really does just it depends on you you know it

depends on how you know what your individual needs are you know say you're a film lover but you've never had the confidence to go to the cinema alone you might try that say you really love the sort of glamorous um notion of the solo diner you might experiment with that I think you know just going and exploring in different ways and also just opening the conversation up with your friends about doing this thing and normalizing it um I think that often you can have you know I've had people in my life where I'll think okay they're my sort of alignment icon at the moment like I want to be a bit more a bit more them a bit more bolder a bit bolder to do the things that they do alone and I think it just becomes a really wonderful process of exploration and yeah obviously

you know I'm speaking as if we all have you know I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who is single lives alone freelance has quite a lot of freedom over my schedule at this life stage. But I think that alone time can also take on a whole different, it's like a commodity. It can take on a whole different sense of value in a stage where you have, you know, we have a partner, we have kids, where you have a close network of friends, you were sort of seeing each other all the time. And I think the consideration there, the thing to think about is also just proactively scheduling it in and thinking, okay, this needs, if this is something I'm valuing, like, I can schedule in, like, you know, an hour or two before I go and meet my friends on a Saturday, or I can, you know, schedule in this time, I can say to my partner, like, actually, this is something, you know, I quite fancy a Saturday or I can you know schedule in this time I can say to my partner like actually this is something you know I quite fancy a night in alone you know would it be okay

if you looked after the kids this evening because I've got you know I quite like to experience like a movie alone or whatever I think it's all those communication things as well and feeling that alonement is a value that's important in and of it in and of itself enough to say it's it's like it's the same as saying I have a social plan you know it's making that time for you and valuing that enough to give that to yourself without feeling guilt around it because you know I think that the reassuring thing is the moment you start taking that time for yourself even if it's just you know 10 minutes a day or that choice evening every every couple of weeks it really comes back into your relationships with others and it really is a means to then give back more uh if you need

to justify it that way no one should feel like they have to but it does seem to work out that way I love that and it sounds wonderfully liberating and empowering actually as a as a way of life and as a yeah just as a movement or yeah just giving yourself permission to do that it really is especially if you're someone that's told that you only exist in relation to other people you know someone that feels like a huge sense of um I don't know I think it's I think I think it is a gendered thing sometimes I think women particularly can feel like a sense of um sense of guilt if like you know they're taking that time for themselves and I think it's so it can feel very liberating once you do it realize you know

it's not no one thinks you're a selfish so and so and actually it's it's made you a better person for yourself and others as a result yeah well I needed you and your work about 13 years before you before you started doing it but what I love is that it's there for people now um how can people learn more about you and your work francesca well so i uh i'm on social media as uh ches specter so c-h-e-z uh specter um on twitter and instagram uh and for the past uh seven months i've been writing a newsletter called the shoulds on substack so you can find that uh just francescaspector.substack.com and i post for uh for free and paid subscribers so i sign up to the to the mailing list and then that's the best way to keep in touch um weekly um with i do weekly newsletters and uh as my my

podcast season eight is coming out in the next couple of months so I'll be posting sort of bonus content and interviews and things on that so yeah lots lots coming out and of course your wonderful book too well yes I should really sorry I should really apologize to my publisher at that point yes and the book is also available everywhere um yeah bookshops uh amazon online all of those I will tag you um and pop all the details in the show notes for how people can reach you as well but thank you so much for your time I know this is going to be really really soul food for those that need to hear it at the moment and for for setting out in their new direction their new lives for either for a new job or for their new training doctoral courses so thank you so much for your time oh thank you wonderful to speak to you as ever marianne

what an absolute pleasure and a privilege to speak with Francesca Spector today. Thank you so much for your time, Francesca. I honestly feel so good having spoken to her. We've spoken across the years. We've spoken via voice note and email and social media. But it's really lovely to have finally met her in person. Yeah, I hope that you have taken something from our conversation today. I'd love to know what you have taken from it. If you'd like to come and connect with me on socials, I'm Dr. Marianne Trent everywhere. And there's also the Aspiring Psychologist community on

Facebook that you're welcome to come and join and share your thoughts about how this has been insightful for you and perhaps for your clients as well and how it will shape your thinking. Please do also connect with Francesca. As she said, she is Chez Spectre on Twitter and on Instagram. There'll be a link for her book, Alonement, How to Be Alone and Absolutely Own It in the show notes too. If you have got any ideas for future podcast episodes, please do get in touch. Even if you think it might not be a podcast episode, sometimes the questions you ask me evoke the idea of a podcast episode, just like today's. I will be back along with your next podcast episode which will be available

from 6 a.m on monday thank you so much for being part of my world and do be kind to yourself take care if you're looking to become a psychologist Then let this be your guide With this podcast at your side You'll be on your way to being qualified It's the Aspiring Psychologist Podcast With Dr. Marianne Trent My name's Jana and I'm a trainee psychological well-being practitioner. I read the Clinical Psychologist Collective book. I found it really interesting about all the different stories

and how people got to become a clinical psychologist. It just amazed me how many different routes there are to get there and there's no perfect way to become one and this kind of filled me with confidence that no I'm not doing it wrong and put less pressure on myself. So if you're feeling a bit uneasy about becoming a clinical psychologist I'd definitely recommend this just to put yourself at ease and everything will be okay but trust me you will not put the book down once you start.