The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast - How to use Psychology in a war zone – Ukraine - Trauma

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hi there, it's Marianne here. Before we dive into today's episode, I want to quickly let you know about something exciting that's happening right now. If you've ever wondered how to create income that works for you, rather than constantly trading your time for money, then you'll love the Race to Recurring Revenue Challenge with my business mentor, Lisa Johnson. This challenge is designed to help you build sustainable income streams. And whether you're an aspiring psychologist, a mental health professional, or in a completely different field,

Starting point is 00:00:32 the principles can work for you. There are also wonderful prizes to be won directly by Lisa herself. And if you join the challenge by my link, you can be in with a chance of winning a one-to-one hours coaching with me, Dr. Marianne Trent. Do you want to know more? Of course you do. Head to my link tree, Dr. Marianne Trent, or check out my social media channels, or send me a quick DM and I'll get you all the details. Right, let's get on with today's episode. Coming up in today's episode, I am joined by Dr. Alistair Teager, who returns to the podcast this time to talk with us about his experiences of helping set up a new service in Ukraine. It

Starting point is 00:01:14 is a fascinating listen. We talk through all kinds of things, and I hope you'll find it so useful. Thank you. The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast with Dr. Marianne Trent. Hi, welcome along to the Aspiring Psychologist Podcast. I am Dr. Marianne Trent and I'm a qualified clinical psychologist. I've said it before, and I will likely say it again. I just love how varied our career in psychology and mental health can be. I love that the last time we met my guest for today, who is Dr. Alastair Teager, we were talking about how to get an assistant psychologist job. And in case you're wondering, that is episode 52. So you can watch that on YouTube or take a listen via Spotify or Apple podcasts. And you know, that was a really well received episode. And today we are talking about the fact that shortly after we recorded that episode, he went off to Ukraine and has been there a few different times to help us think about how we can use our skills to benefit others in perhaps very

Starting point is 00:03:07 different contexts than that which we learned them in or which we're familiar with ourselves honestly just a privilege to talk to him I hope that you all gain a lot from it we do mention a concept called moral injury and I thought it might just be useful for me to explain what that is in case you don't know already. So this was a term that I only really became aware of during the pandemic. And it was something that was cropping up for people, health staff, for example, who were having to make decisions over who to treat, who to give certain technology to if there's only certain amounts available. And then afterwards, having to then deal with the consequences of those decisions

Starting point is 00:03:52 of that moral decision. And you kind of can have a trauma presentation. So that's what moral injury is. So yeah, just to save you a Google i i like this to be a one-stop shop for useful stuff for you um if you've got any ideas for future podcast episodes please do get in contact with me and let me know please also if you do value this content please do rate and review it both on spotify and or apple podcasts and if you're watching this on YouTube, please do like, subscribe, share the content to help us get this word of the podcast that is getting really lovely feedback to as many people as possible. Don't let me stop you. Let's dive in. Let's reconnect with Alistair and I will see you on the other side of this.

Starting point is 00:04:45 Just want to welcome our guest back to the podcast today because we met Dr Alistair previously when we were talking about how to get assistant psychologist jobs but we were also discussing the very exciting and potentially a little bit worrying trip that you were about to make Alistair which was to go to Ukraine. Welcome back, thanks for being here. Thanks for having me, much appreciated. So can you tell us a little bit about what your experiences were like when you went to Ukraine? Yeah of course would help to I suppose give a bit of the background to how it came about you know. Sure that would be great. I don't think it's something I thought I was going to be doing as a an aspiring clinical psychologist so yeah coming out of training I worked in neuropsychology I also worked in major trauma center so with people with

Starting point is 00:05:36 brain injuries spinal injuries musculoskeletal injuries and I suppose as a part of that when I was working or overseeing the major trauma service, the Ariane de Grande concert bombing happened, so the Manchesterina attack. And we're based at Salford. So we had a number of people come to our hospital as part of the major incident. So we provide a lot of acute psychosocial care. And then more recently, we've sort of developed a bit of spinal cord injury service as well so i suppose thinking about ukraine and what's going on there in the war um and sort of some of my areas of expertise i think the the world health organization

Starting point is 00:06:17 reached out to a number of services including um the stoke mandville, which is the National Spinal Cord Injury Centre. And I'm in a couple of networks with guys from there. And Dr. Jane Duff, who's the lead there, she kind of knew my background and thought, actually, this is probably up your street or within your wheelhouse. So, yeah, they were trying to set up a national rehabilitation center for um casualties of the war civilians and military um with an onus on spinal cord injury and traumatic brain injury so i suppose that's where i thought actually that's probably something i can offer um i wanted to be able to to do something, but wasn't sure that was. And then this landed in my email inbox and I thought, you know,

Starting point is 00:07:09 I'm going to follow that up really. So, yeah, I suppose that's a bit of the backdrop to it. Yeah. Yeah, like it's an incredible career that we're in, isn't it? That sometimes something will just drop into your emails that you weren't necessarily pursuing but once you you know once you know about it you're like oh that that is intriguing I think I would like that I think I would do that well and it's that flexibility of our skills but also

Starting point is 00:07:37 our eagerness to learn and to support and you know help people as well I think yeah I mean I think I've never been particularly ambitious to want to do one thing or the other but I've been sometimes in the right place at the right time and perhaps a bit opportunistic um and obviously with it being that um the war in Ukraine people were incredibly supportive from from my hospital um Northernolines they were they wanted to be able to support the effort in some way so they were able to you know provide me with the the leave but also permission to to explore it really so yeah just went from there really great and how long were you there for so um i worked there off and on between start of December and end of March,

Starting point is 00:08:28 but I was effectively doing about two weeks in Ukraine and then coming back, working in the NHS for two weeks, then going back to Ukraine for two weeks. But it's quite difficult because I suppose contextually, you know, it is a war zone, so it would take me two or three days to get to the hospital where we're working and that's because i have to fly into poland well for starters i'd have to get from chester to stansted which is where most of the flights go to a place called jejov in poland then i'd stay there overnight then i'd have to get a UN vehicle across the border to Lviv.

Starting point is 00:09:11 And then I'd stay over there overnight because you're not allowed to travel in UN vehicles during nighttime. And then you've got to line up with them when the transports happen. So then the next day I'd get a lift up to where we were based. So it's quite disjointed, but also understandably so. So if I was out there for 14 to 16 days, I might only be in the hospital for eight days because of the travel restrictions, really. And I think personally, I went out for a week in December to start just to get a feel for it, which was really useful because it's quite anxiety provoking to think about where I was going um possibly more for my mum less so my dad when they heard what I was going to be doing um so I think it provided them with a bit of a reassurance and also it's kind of a dry run for me you know sort of get to know the country a bit get to know what the needs were and then I went back in uh in first week of

Starting point is 00:10:03 January um to sort of, I suppose, start the work in earnest. So, yeah, that's that side of things. It was, it's a beautiful country. I've loved being out there, like, experiencing the culture and stuff, but it's also incredibly daunting and humbling to see what they're going through and what we can come back to. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:10:23 Yeah, I feel like I've learned a tiny amount of culture from some Ukrainian refugees my mum had staying with her for a while and seeing their pictures of, you know, their homes and their areas where they'd lived before. It was beautiful. And then seeing, you know, what it had been raised to. It was, you know, just tragic. And it's real people, you know.

Starting point is 00:10:43 It's really, really emotive, isn't it? And we're recording this, Alistair, as you know, just tragic. And it was real people, you know, it's really, really emotive, isn't it? And we're recording this, Alistair, as you know, in the time when actually there's lots and lots in the media about the Israel attacks and the atrocities that have been happening there. And I was in a private practice discussion for someone who was a clinical psychologist that lives and works in Israel, but had trained in the UK and was really trying to help people, you know, in a crisis situation, but isn't necessarily a trauma therapist and was saying, how can I do this? How can I be help? How can I be help? And, you know, I also work in trauma. I was saying, well, it's very difficult to try and help people find safety when there's so many unanswered questions and when when we can't get that felt sense of safety. And of course, when we're doing trauma work, it's partly it's what we're having to say to people. It's over now. You know, how do you do that? How do you manage that when you're in an ongoing situation?

Starting point is 00:11:49 Yeah, million-dollar question, really. I think one of the things I've talked about in a few of the conferences we've been to or with colleagues is actually there's a collective trauma going on, you know, the psychologist that we're working with. So the role was more around know the the psychologist that we're working with so it's more the role was more around training up the psychologist getting a sense of what they're working with and perhaps identifying needs um but they're going through trauma they're you know they're listening to the radio watching the news every day there's a lot of people that they know have been

Starting point is 00:12:21 hurt killed or friends of friends etc so it's all very close to home. So them trying to manage their own well-being, for want of a better word, is really tricky. I think because there was, I suppose, a spinal cord injury or SCI center and a traumatic brain injury center as well, there was certainly a degree of trying to get the patients or the clients through rehabilitation or get them engaged in rehabilitation to minimise their difficulties further down the line. But there's lots of other things coming up,

Starting point is 00:12:56 lots of guys with PTSD, lots of anxiety, lots of low mood, lots of maladaptive coping strategies. So almost trying to unpick that as well and trying to navigate it and then also displacement so millions of people have had to move and millions of people can't go back to where they are from so even just trying to get these guys back or discharged from the hospital is a real a real tricky thing um i've been really impressed though with you know for saying in ukraine there's not a formal pathway for psychologists a lot of the stuff they're doing is similar to what we do but perhaps not necessarily with our uh clinical training or uh evidence base or sort of theory practice links but it it does make sense um so i think for me is trying to provide them or help

Starting point is 00:13:48 them think about core skills um so there's things like um motivational interviewing techniques and even just goal setting um also thinking about uh adjustment after spinal injury. But with me only being out there effectively two or three months, I was never going to be able to train them in a therapeutic orientation. So we were trying to recommend that the WHO and the Ukrainian Ministry of Health look at getting them formal or accredited qualifications in things like CBT and in EMDR because it's a recognition to the fact that those things would be helpful for a variety of reasons for the patients they were working with. So, yeah, really multifactorial. And like I say, it's difficult to concentrate on one thing when there's a backdrop of systemic problems that you're not going to be able to resolve.

Starting point is 00:14:44 Absolutely. And I guess it's knowing that what you're not going to be able to resolve. Absolutely. And I guess it's knowing that what you're doing is all that can be done right now and that it's helpful and worthwhile. Yeah, that's something I've reflected on a fair bit because, again, I knew I was doing a relatively short-term contract and I knew I wouldn't be able to do everything that would be possible, the sort of moral injury side of things. But I suppose being in amongst that system, that ecosystem,

Starting point is 00:15:12 you get more of an idea of what the government are doing or how the people are seeing things. So Zelensky's wife is the first lady, and she's very much on the mental health ticket. She's really promoting that stuff for civilians, the military but also those providing care um and i think from talking to the psychologists in ukraine as well um mental health is taboo um it is it is in most places they feel it's very much so out there very proud country but i think this is bringing it to the surface and i think it might be changing the culture in some ways and in trying to um say

Starting point is 00:15:52 that it doesn't can happen to people and we need to think about how we support people before during and after in order to to try and help people get better absolutely and you know to be human is to you know actually absolutely be unifying but it sounds like actually it's just it's culture and kind of traditions that dictate how mental health is responded to but actually the symptoms of mental health are pretty pretty consistent across our human population yeah yeah i think um yeah i think you're right there i think there's definitely cultural language difficulties or differences but there's often commonalities that we can see between people as well i'm intrigued in your opinion so today um i've been on lbc radio because um a very big newspaper in the UK had decided to print a really emotive photo.

Starting point is 00:16:50 I won't share too much information about it in case it's triggering for people. But the question I was asked is, was it right to print that? Is there a responsibility to print that? And they were really pushing me on that and I was sort of dancing around that topic because you know in essence my answer is maybe not in baby loss awareness week you know there's better times we could do that um but it's so triggering to people this kind of emotive photography what's your viewpoint on that Alistair? So obviously I'm not not an expert in it but I did go to a talk at the European Congress of Psychology in Brighton over the summer and they had a an expert from the US on this very topic

Starting point is 00:17:38 and her advice was if there's news stories with images that are potentially traumatizing then she covers them up she doesn't click on the videos she might read the text but she's their evidence is that if you engage with the picture or the video you're more likely to get secondary traumatization than you were if you just to read the text so that's not my opinion but i well i i get it i agree with it and i'm trying to practice that a bit to myself um but that's where they sat with it um yeah i wouldn't all like to comment on the the moral duty of a newspaper because it's difficult because you've got raising awareness of things that are going on versus how do you do that and what content do you put out there for others to see yeah i agree and in the pre-production

Starting point is 00:18:26 chat that i'd had um i was saying you know this this does kind of make us aware of what humanity is capable of you know in terms of the compassionate focus trauma you know approach you know humans are capable of doing really awful things on purpose to other people um but also we're capable of imagining you know we don't necessarily need to see a photo to you know to have it paint a thousand words um and sometimes you don't need to see pictures of people that are wounded sometimes just the setting where they've been wounded is equally as powerful you know I'm still struck with the the images of when Osama bin Laden was was captured killed that was really really powerful you didn't see him but you saw the room and that's you know it is powerful and I guess when we're working with

Starting point is 00:19:17 people who either are traumatized or have been traumatized there's a real impact of vicarious trauma both upon ourselves but you know upon people that you'll have been working with as well um how do we look after ourselves in terms of the carers trauma how have you been looking after yourself yeah i think before i went out i was trying to make sure trying to think about that before i needed to um and you know it's interesting, the first, when I went out in December, we were in a hotel that was slightly out of the city that we were based in. And, you know, we'd go to work in the morning,

Starting point is 00:19:54 get back at four-ish, but it was winter, it was cold, it was dark, there's nothing else around particularly. You think about the things that we do around achievement connection i suppose enjoy enjoyment you know um internet connectivity was poor so it's difficult to speak to people back home or even just go on social media to connect with people or stream stuff um there wasn't a gym in the hotel so you couldn't necessarily do anything to keep yourself active um you couldn't go out for a walk because we're on a dual carriageway the nearest thing was like a supermarket half a

Starting point is 00:20:28 mile away and so i i felt that the first time around i thought you know i took out some gym gear to work out in the room um i tried to think about eating healthily but that's very difficult when you're living in a hotel um so i think as a i suppose as a who team we sort of agreed that we'd move into the city for the for the january to march phase because for me i wanted to be a part of and i like to go for a coffee or i like to go to the gym or i like to have a few options once i get back from work and that was a really strong move to i suppose be closer to it and also we're able to experience the ukrainian culture a bit more you know i i went to a coffee shop regularly in the morning and they got to know my order um i went i joined a gym and

Starting point is 00:21:11 went to that like several times a week and that was great for me because you know i usually go out mountain biking or swimming or going to the gym and stuff um there were lots of restaurants we could go to so again sort of like dipping into that I think in addition to that you've also got to think about what you eat so my routine when I've had to think about why I eat when I get back because you know I probably put about 10 pounds from just sort of living the life and eating in hotels or restaurants three times a day and then I suppose the other things is trying to think about, again, foundation stuff, but, you know, not drinking particularly.

Starting point is 00:21:49 You know, I'm not a big drinker, but I'd have to make sure that I watched that because it's quite easy to, when you're meeting new people or you've got sort of meetings with officials, you have a drink or the tradition around it. And sleep, sleeping somewhere different i'm not gonna lie there were air raids or air raid sirens you know sort of every couple of days and they could be any time of the day they could be in the middle of the night they could be for 10 minutes it could be for three hours so it's trying to think about you know i often sleep with earplugs

Starting point is 00:22:20 and eye masks they definitely came with me had some herbal sleeping stuff that I took occasionally but that was just to try and keep me going because um it's easy to say but you're in threat mode most of the time and the work we were doing was pretty intense I was also trying to navigate doing stuff back here um by either providing supervision or dipping in on more complex cases that I'd left behind so it's almost like give yourself permission say actually I'll dip out of this or I'd not go to that or I need to I'm going to give myself permission to self-care a bit um it's all very well and good saying that but it's very hard to do it so I think for me going out there and having that was really important and then when I came back you know it probably take anything from a few days to maybe a week or so to just uh decompress you know I wasn't like up here but I was a bit more down you know

Starting point is 00:23:14 sort of the sort of the uh counter counter side to that so again for me is trying to do stuff with my wife and my dog and meet mates or organize a night or a day where i'd go actually i'll put this in the diary because when i come back i might not want to do that but if there's something already organized it's kind of in the offing um so yeah just i suppose being for me being a bit organized thinking ahead of time about stuff that i know is good for me and then trying to stick to it or getting other people to remind me for it you know i think um after say that one of my trainees that was back in salford you know before i went out i was like checking on me because i might be a bit more irritable than normal i might be a bit tired and she was great at just

Starting point is 00:23:55 sort of asking that question um because again when you're in a perceived perceived position of power people don't necessarily ask um but it was really good just to have someone that within a safe space almost like a peer supervision element just to try and make sure that you know i'm not going down a path or that i'm not thinking too much i'd say yeah so yeah there was a few things that you know we teach others to do and i wanted to practice what we preach um i haven't done anything specific in terms of supervision or seeking i suppose uh counseling support because i don't think it's i've been one step separate from that and it was short-term basis but you know if that comes up in the future that's not something i would shy away from for

Starting point is 00:24:36 sure oh i mean you said the words right out of my mouth but you really have been practicing what we preach you know the the basics of eating sleeping activity scheduling you know trying to look for the things that you know keep you well generally and trying to see what you can do to to keep those as constant as possible but um it made me made me think about some of my conversations with my um with the people that were staying with my mum and they were like there's too many too many vegetables here in this country we need more meat we need yeah yeah and so I can see how if that's kind of what you were around that you might have put on more weight than you're used to as well very much so it's a lot harder to lose when you're a bit older as well oh yeah i hear you i hear you um but you

Starting point is 00:25:26 know i was i've been it's only the second time i've met you um i follow you on twitter and was trying to follow your exploits on there a little bit we're allowed to say twitter anymore i don't think we are x whatever it is um but you know like your parents i was worried about you yeah sadly when you were there there there were two British journalists, it turned out, who were missing and did not survive. But to begin with, that was reported as two British men. Everybody who knows you and everybody who knows them, of course, would have been thinking, oh, gosh, oh, gosh.

Starting point is 00:26:02 And it's very difficult. It wasn't easy for you either. thinking, oh, gosh, oh, gosh, you know, and it's very difficult. Yeah. It wasn't easy for you either. It's tricky because I also wasn't allowed to say where I was. And there were people who did know, but I think from my side, I was able to tell broadly people back home where I was, and I was sort of northwestern Ukraine, which is very reassuring when you think how far away it is from things but the airline say people who slightly more removed or might be able to who who won't

Starting point is 00:26:30 got a message from me just in general um were wondering what was going on and interestingly a lot of my friends who i worked with out there from the who's have still been working out there and it's been harder for me back here seeing what's going on out there and then going oh gosh is that is that near you or there is something near them and worrying about them more now i'm back than i was about myself when i was out there i felt far safer when i was out there than people might my thoughts i would have been so yeah that was that was odd um but yeah i think um i mean it's always it was funny telling my my mum and my dad about it because my mum worked for the nhs for 40 or 50 years as a nurse and she did a bit of work in

Starting point is 00:27:13 in hong kong over that time and so she was used she she was sort of used to the idea of doing a bit of work away um but i think i i told her you know all oh you know i've got a job it's really exciting um i'm going to be working for the who she said oh that's amazing that's fantastic and then she goes where i was like oh in ukraine and then that i took a screenshot of it at the time because i was but she it was crestfallen but at the same time there's so much pride in it and i think um i think that was the heartening thing i didn't want to make people too worried or too upset but at the same time it's a very uh just thing to be doing um and i think if i thought it was too dangerous i would have just probably pulled out or um tried to end

Starting point is 00:27:56 the contract early so yeah it's difficult isn't it we have it in the uk if there's a major incident in london i've had that with friends 2007 mates working in london and the bus bombing and i was like oh gosh and there's the whole check-in thing and that sort of stuff so yeah i've seen it from the other side um i think i think that's the thing isn't it i was struck by that today so just before we met i popped to aldi um to get some bits and pieces and i bought myself a new pair of slippers which I'm very excited about. This is the thing isn't it people are just going about their normal lives and you know even in Israel this time last week people were just out there buying slippers and

Starting point is 00:28:36 dishwasher tablets you know and it's when it just catches you in the middle of your ordinary life it's really derailing yeah i think um i'm supposed to reflect on what it looked like out there as well there is a new normal for the guys in ukraine um there's a curfew still at 11 p.m for everyone across the country um there's air raids and people are supposed to go to air raid shelters but depending on where you are you're more or less likely to do that because there's an app that tells you there's an air raid. There's also people messaging saying, oh, no, it's not here. It's gone past here, et cetera. Everyone's got power banks because phones and electricity can go down.

Starting point is 00:29:22 Similarly, you walk down the high street, every shop's got sort of a petrol generator outside when the power cuts happen. The transport infrastructure has been affected because they've had to invest in the military. So getting around is a lot harder. The roads are a lot more cut up. But, you know, there's a big belief amongst the Ukrainian population about winning

Starting point is 00:29:42 and also that this is the right thing to do. And I think that's reflected in some of the people who've joined the effort from neighbouring countries because they're worried about being next so it's a really really interesting one because they have I suppose have adjusted to it but it's still not right. One of the things that was really telling was one of our drivers was talking about you know if an air raid happens during school hours the school shuts so parents have to go get the kids pull them out of school i'm like well i said there's a generational trauma about to happen or what the generational effects of people not getting adequate access to education over time what does

Starting point is 00:30:22 affect people going into employment you know lots of working age men are in the military um so yeah there's there's just a lot of dynamics where people have sort of accepted a new norm but there's no end point in science how do you carry on that on really yeah really important questions really important questions and i guess we're we're humans and we adapt, don't we? Because what are the other choices, you know? No, it's just such a huge question, isn't it? You know, we've not experienced wartime in our country.

Starting point is 00:30:58 You know, there's a few generations back you have, but it's very different when you see it first hand or even second hand you know and i just had not imagined there'd be an air raid app you know there are apps for everything but they are pretty useful it's a pretty useful app to have if you need it it's incredible yeah again i didn't think that would be the case but i think you know i've had friends who've been out in japan and they get warnings about tornadoes and i was oh yeah that makes sense and then it was when i got to ukraine oh yeah you need to download this this will tell you when the air raid starts and when it stops and you know um where we were staying as well they had a siren and it is what you hear in the films from the blitz it's exactly that and it's like you feel like you're transported

Starting point is 00:31:45 back in time and it's a very evocative um noise um very very loud obviously but it's just again it's something that'll stick with me you know when i hear something on the tv i was like oh sort of transported back not in a reliving sense but it's just reminiscent you know so it's loud but you know i don't know if you've ever been to a sound bath class but some certain frequencies resonate in your body you know do you have that do you have that experience with it i suppose thinking about it now not i had i usually had earplugs in um but yeah i don't think i had that per se but i think i'd probably acclimatized to it in a way i don't know if you know i've been we've holidayed like heptabridging they've had similar sirens around flooding um so i wonder you know i wonder

Starting point is 00:32:31 if there's a certain pitch they have it so it is like say resonating in a in a very physical way yeah oh i've got so many questions and conversations to have with you. But, you know, if people are moved or intrigued about what we're talking about, is there a best place they can learn or is there a best place they can offer any support themselves, Alistair? Oh, gosh, I don't know, really. I think it's tricky. I think there was a big, I suppose, a big move early on in the war about people offering support and sending things out there but i don't know how that looks at the moment um i suppose most big cities have got ukrainian communities that could reach out to um but aside from that i suppose for me i'm trying to share the good work that's being done out there and share it as a mental health is on the agenda

Starting point is 00:33:22 and the who and the ministry of health out there are pushing this but it's difficult to I suppose it's difficult to get that momentum or sometimes to know what to do and I've got I've had a very small part to play but I suppose I'm just trying to at the moment support the guys I know in being able to support more people so almost like multiplier effect you know so yeah I'm not sure really mary i'm sorry yeah okay that's all right um and you know you feel like it's a small part but i guess for me i know that the goodness that you're putting in there and the good practice and the really sound principles of how to set up a service in a compassionate, holistic way are going to be far-reaching, not just now,

Starting point is 00:34:09 but in years and years to come. So I think, you know, I feel really proud of you as a human, but also really proud of the profession that you've been able to do that and you've been able to offer that at such an important time for that country. So, you know, not my place to be proud of you but I am all the same and thank you for doing this really important work and to share your skills so richly and freely you know at risk to yourself no um you know thank you it's

Starting point is 00:34:38 very very nice of you to say I think it's always nice to hear isn't it that people are proud of you and glad that you've done what you've done. I don't think I'd say that's why I did it. Four is something I thought I can do. It's within my zone of proximal development. It's within my wheelhouse to a degree, but perhaps a bit of a stretch. But, yeah, I think when I was leaving Ukraine and when I was finishing out there,

Starting point is 00:35:03 you got a sense of the outpouring of the gratitude. And, you know, when you're walking down the streets, people are generally like, why are you here? And then when they find out, there's similar sort of a bit of amazement, but also then a real outpouring of love and affection for the fact that you're actually wanting to put yourself in that situation. And I was probably a bit blasé about it at the start I'm probably still a bit now but yeah I think over time I'll probably think about the gravity of it and I think seeing the

Starting point is 00:35:32 psychologist particularly sort of like Nadia who's one of the ones I've been mentoring and seeing how she's come on since I first went out there and she was almost learning and sitting in the stuff I was doing to now when she's delivering teaching or CPD for others is great. And like I said, hopefully there's just a thin foundation that they can then build on and provide to others, because previously it's probably been it's not been a particularly popular profession, similar to OT, relatively new or sort of undersourced or lack of structure. So hopefully, unfortunately, this has brought it to the surface, but hopefully there is some good coming out of it in terms of

Starting point is 00:36:12 the public perception of psychology being changed. Anna, you're making me think about when I've worked with service personnel and when I've worked with people that work in the police and in the fire service you know it's often a certain breed of person that is able to run towards things that people would usually run away from would you say you're kind of a white knuckle sort of adrenaline sort of guy generally or is that is this I was going to say no but then I'll probably then you probably ask me a follow-up question about oh yeah i've done that and i've done that and i've done that so i think i do i do those sort of things but i'm not sort of i'm not necessarily an adrenaline junkie but i do um

Starting point is 00:36:54 i've always been competitive sports or done things that i think to relax i've always done something quite active um but yeah i think i think again just going back to what you're saying about so people running towards it, a lot of the guys we saw out there were military, obviously. And I suppose there's a lot of them who wanted to get straight back into it or felt guilty about not being able to go back. And for me, I was just like, I've never been inclined to join the military. I've always been very impassioned about people who have.

Starting point is 00:37:23 But it was just very humbling to see these lads with these awful injuries going okay so I want to go back and and fight for my country I want I've got a band of brothers or a band of sisters that I want to to be in amongst again so yeah I I like doing things that are energizing but yeah it's uh I wouldn't say I've run towards it quite so much no okay well thank you so much for taking time on your day off as well like it's again dedication to the cause um it's been it's been an absolute pleasure to speak with you um and thank you for coming back on again because it feels like a really important conversation and i wanted to just pay kudos to the really important work that you and your team have been doing no thank you Marion it's really nice to I suppose be invited back on and I suppose talk about

Starting point is 00:38:13 something different and I suppose share that psychology is not just one element and you know if there's something that takes your fancy there's an option for you to try and pursue that as you know if you if you look into it absolutely it's a multi-f to try and pursue that as you know if you look into it absolutely it's a multi-faceted career and i just you know i'm never stopped being blown away for the directions that a single psychology degree can take you and you know it's incredible stuff thank you again and uh yeah i hope you have a lovely weekend and it's restful i want you to rest i don't i want you to rest don't worry i've been out for brunch i'm gonna walk the dog everything's good okay my my desire to keep you safe is like oh let's look

Starting point is 00:38:50 i'm in chester i'm not anywhere ridiculous at the moment okay thank you again for your time thanks maria oh thank you so much for watching. I hope that you found that as interesting an experience to listen to or to watch if you're watching on YouTube as I did to speak to Alistair. You know, I said it all really, just what a privilege to speak to him and what incredible work he's done. And yeah, I just feel really proud of him and of our profession. I would love your thoughts on this episode. Please do come and connect with me on socials. I'm Dr. Marianne Trent everywhere. But also do come along and join the Aspiring Psychologist Community free Facebook group. Please do either watch the compassionate Q&As

Starting point is 00:39:40 for psychology application season either live or on replay by going along to YouTube, clicking my videos, Dr. Marianne Trent, going to the live tab and you'll find them all there. They're also in the playlists. Yeah. Tell your friends if you do find this useful and if you like the sort of things and the conversations that I have and the support that I can offer, do also consider the Aspiring Psychologist membership, which is doing great things. Thank you so much for allowing me to be part of your world and for being part of mine. The next episode of the Aspiring Psychologist podcast is available from 6am on Monday. Until then, be kind to yourselves. Take care. Bye. then let this be your guide with this podcast that you'll say to be on your way to being qualified

Starting point is 00:40:49 it's the aspiring psychologist podcast with dr marianne my name's Jana and I'm a trainee psychological well-being practitioner I read the clinical psychologist collective book I found it really interesting about all the different stories and how people got to become a clinical psychologist. It just amazed me how many different routes there are to get there and there's no perfect way to become one. And this kind of filled me with confidence that, no, I'm not doing it wrong and put less pressure on myself. So if you're feeling a bit uneasy about becoming a clinical psychologist

Starting point is 00:41:46 I'd definitely recommend this just to put yourself at ease and everything will be okay. But trust me you will not put the book down once you start.

The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast - How to use Psychology in a war zone – Ukraine - Trauma

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