The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast - Men's mental health matters with Dr Ajayi

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hi there, it's Marianne here. Before we dive into today's episode, I want to quickly let you know about something exciting that's happening right now. If you've ever wondered how to create income that works for you, rather than constantly trading your time for money, then you'll love the Race to Recurring Revenue Challenge with my business mentor, Lisa Johnson. This challenge is designed to help you build sustainable income streams. And whether you're an aspiring psychologist, a mental health professional, or in a completely different field,

Starting point is 00:00:32 the principles can work for you. There are also wonderful prizes to be won directly by Lisa herself. And if you join the challenge by my link, you can be in with a chance of winning a one-to-one hours coaching with me, Dr. Marianne Trent. Do you want to know more? Of course you do. Head to my link tree, Dr. Marianne Trent, or check out my social media channels, or send me a quick DM and I'll get you all the details. Right, let's get on with today's episode. Coming up in today's episode, this is a shout out to your men. This is a call if you are

Starting point is 00:01:09 men, if you have ever worked with a man, if you know a man, if you work in a team with a man, this is a call if you have a father, if you are a father, if you have sons. This is a quest, a call, a movement into action to better include men within mental health services and I am joined by a consultant psychiatrist as we talk about how to better engage men and be the difference that makes the difference for men in mental health to make life feel like it's worth living. Hope you'll find it so useful. Please do share this content far and wide. your guide. With this podcast at your side, you'll be on your way to being qualified. It's the Aspiring Psychologist Podcast with Dr. Marianne Trent. Hi, welcome along to the Aspiring Psychologist Podcast. I am Dr. Marianne Trent and I'm a

Starting point is 00:02:28 qualified clinical psychologist. I like to introduce you to interesting themes and debates in psychology and today's is going to be a really powerful episode. I am joined by a consultant psychiatrist today, which is a little bit different, but I hope that whatever discipline you are as you listen to this, and you may not work in mental health at all, you might actually be someone that might find the content in this podcast really empowering and maybe just life changing. We are talking about all things male. How can we better engage men in mental health services? How can we de-shame? How can we have better results and give more hope? It was such a pleasure to speak to my guest today. And I hope that you find it to be just the most nourishing, interesting, thought-provoking

Starting point is 00:03:27 episode like I did. I will look forward to catching up with you on the other side of this. It is my absolute pleasure to welcome to the podcast today Dr. T. Ayodele Adjaye. Hi. Good. Hi, Harm. It's nice to be here and thank you for having me on the podcast oh thank you for saying yes we um crossed paths on linkedin i think originally you'd started commenting on some of my four minute clinics and then i started commenting on your stuff and then it just got to the stage where we're having big long conversations in the chat and i was like maybe we should actually have a podcast episode to discuss this yeah yeah so it's um it's it's amazing how many um connections you make on on linkedin or particularly i particularly like linkedin because of the professional conversations and it's really a very interesting place where people have regard

Starting point is 00:04:17 for each other so it's my i i it's one of my preferred social media platforms for that reason. Me too. I just, I do love the random chats you can have, but I love that you so effortlessly rub up against different disciplines. So you, for example, are a psychiatrist and I love seeing where we might have shared ground, where we might be able to learn things about each other's profession and, you know, potentially what you can do together, together such as this could you tell us a little bit about yourself please right so um i'm a consultant psychiatrist and i work in the southeast of england i'm in the east of kent and um i've been in psychiatry i started my psychiatry training about 23 years ago. Also, I do

Starting point is 00:05:08 run a Tripad Care Emotional Wellbeing Hub, which is an online safe, sensitive space for people of Black ethnic minority and faith communities to come together and look at mental

Starting point is 00:05:24 health in a way that is non-threatening and in a way where we can encourage open conversations and sort of normalize things that it's okay not to be okay and to have these conversations in a healthy way yeah such important conversations to have and we're recording this in November and this is likely to be going out in January but I really like the stuff that you were talking um during men's mental health awareness um campaigns in November about about kind of wanting to encourage men specifically to talk and to de-shame the process of having feelings, you know, because we are human.

Starting point is 00:06:06 It's such important stuff to do. Absolutely. Yeah. I couldn't agree with you more. My interaction with men over, I think, more intensively over the last three years, I've shown that it's not that stereotype is actually a stereotype that men don't talk about their emotions. I found it not to be true. What I'm finding is that men actually, like women, like everyone else, have emotions. But we feel we only let down our guts when we feel safe. And I think it's really the honors is on society to begin to challenge those stereotypes about men don't talk.

Starting point is 00:06:45 Because it's very difficult to beat stereotypes, isn't it? You feel boxed in. And when you are the outlier, it feels like swimming against the tide. So if society believes that men should not express emotions, it's not okay, it's a sign of weakness. For you to then be the man who comes forward and begins to talk emotions can be quite daunting and that's what I'm hearing from men really which is interesting. It really is and I am the mother of two young boys but I also have an older brother he's 17 months older than me so not massively older but it's interesting for me to be able to kind of compare

Starting point is 00:07:26 and contrast the differences that I've observed from being the sister of a brother and then being the mother of two boys whilst also being a psychologist absolutely we are empowering our young men these days to to talk about emotions to tap into their feelings. But this is not easy, I think, certainly for our generation, because it wasn't the way that we've been schooled. We're almost having to learn with them as well. Has that been your experiences too? Absolutely. I couldn't agree more that there's such a generational gap in terms of emotions and in terms of men being in touch with emotions. I think the older generation, the baby boomers, don't even do emotions at all. And interestingly, that's striking because it's striking because the suicide figures, for instance, three out of four men dying by suicide in the UK and the highest age group is the 50 to 59 among men.

Starting point is 00:08:31 So that's telling us something, isn't it, about really what's the link between how we feel comfortable about speaking about our emotions and then taking it out on ourselves and then ending up taking our lives. It's just something to think about um yeah i absolutely agree with you i do hope that we are experiencing a bit of a wave of change though for example i don't know if you saw my post on linkedin the other day about what if we were all as emotionally sophisticated as the average modern

Starting point is 00:09:07 seven-year-old so as I was on my way home from school with my seven-year-old he started telling me about someone in his class that was basically trying to get him to be her boyfriend and he didn't want that he didn't want that and she was kind of trying to manipulate him and saying well I'll invite you to my party if you if you'll come if you'll just be my boyfriend for a day you know I'll I'll invite you to my party and in the end he basically called her out for gaslighting you know and said I don't I you know this is not okay you can't do this to me I've said no I've you know and and then was able to not only do that in the moment, but then tell me about it as well. And I'm like, gosh, I think there's change happening.

Starting point is 00:09:53 I think your voice is certainly ahead of the curve. It's probably because it's got the benefit of having been like that, having the benefit of a clinical psychologist mom, all these growing years for the last seven years, which are very crucial years. But I also do agree that I think things are changing. I think my feeling is that the Gen Z's

Starting point is 00:10:16 and the millennials young men are more open to discuss their emotions, but they're also looking for safety. I've found that that psychological safety, for better use of a word, in terms of just really having that safe, sensitive space where men don't feel they're going to be criticized or that they're going to be fixed, because that's the other thing. A man by nature wants to feel that they are the king of their castles even when the

Starting point is 00:10:46 castle is in ruin and when everything is not where it should be, every man still wants to feel like he is in charge and because men have fixed us what we then have with men relationship, peer relationship with men is that as soon as you open

Starting point is 00:11:02 your mouth the other man wants to jump in and tell you the things that you are doing wrong and what you need to fix and and that man is just looking for an outlet he's not looking for somebody to fix his problems he knows that he's in trouble he knows that there are things that need to be done but you also just wants another peer who is a good listener and who is authentic okay so one of the key ingredients then for creating that safe space is a little bit less talking a bit more zipping it's just kind of to hear rather necessarily than to fix. Yeah, absolutely. And there might be, you know, things we can suggest or come up with. But I guess, you know, do you believe in someone's ability to kind of find their way to healing?

Starting point is 00:11:57 What's your opinion of that? So I believe that there are different paths that we find to our recovery journey, that our recovery journeys are different. Everyone's recovery journey is unique. It's based on probably their childhood experiences, their education, and their exposure, the things that they've been exposed to in the course of their lives. Because that's where they pull resources from when it comes to periods of conflict, when it comes to periods of challenges.

Starting point is 00:12:31 It's from those places that they draw their resources. So I believe that everyone's unique and journey is unique. And that really, even as psychiatrists, as psychologists, as therapists, I think our role is to create a safe space, sometimes even for coaches and mentors as well, to create a place of safety where people can reflect because sometimes we lead the reality that we live in a busy world. So people can step back and reflect and find their own answers and join their own dots.

Starting point is 00:13:06 Yeah. And, you know know as you were talking it was making me think about the importance of having a really good relationship with your supervisor because actually a key part of managing this work we do is that safe space you know that if you've ever had the experience of being supervised by someone you don't have a good attunement with but it it can really wobble you it doesn't feel safe it makes it feel like you're being judged and you're being criticized that you're not good enough whereas there's something really containing about that safe space even therapeutically with as a professional and so to be able to create that um for our children and create that for our service users and our clients is incredible.

Starting point is 00:13:47 You know, we might be doing that for the first time ever, especially if we work with people that have had complex trauma backgrounds. You know, it's a chance to get it right at whatever stage we're working with, either a client, a colleague, or, you know, a family system yeah yeah yeah i think psychological safety and i've been containing having that containment that that's um that space is it cannot be overemphasized as you say because it's amazing as well what then comes out the content, the interaction that takes place when people feel safe. Because as you say, I don't even think it's only the supervisor that benefits. I think the supervisor as well benefits from that interaction because it helps you to feel safe to also admit sometimes your own vulnerabilities

Starting point is 00:14:40 because that's the other issue in terms of really being able to admit that yes I'm supervisor but I'm not the reporter of all knowledge or that there are things that I'm also going through their processes that it's an organic process for me as well. Yeah I don't know if you've ever done that exercise, and I'm not going to ask you to give me the answer to this question, but for you to hold in mind where you connect now to the thing that you are most ashamed of. And I'm not going to ask you the answer, but if you just take a moment to just think about what that is and then you imagine having to tell me it, I'm not going to do it. But, you know, being able to do that and, you know, the physical sensations that you might feel as you were to imagine that, you know, you might feel squirming. You might start to sweat. You might start to think, oh, no, what's she going to think of me? This is going to be awful. It's going to be broadcast everywhere. It's that sense of shame, judgment criticism um and how it can kind of really

Starting point is 00:15:47 kickstart our fight and flight and that is what we're essentially asking our clients to do certainly every new assessment aren't we you know tell a stranger your deepest darkest thoughts and feelings but that said it's not as bad as you imagine when it's done when it's handled well is it yes that that's really i like the way you've discovered described it so graphically because it just brings it to light and the interesting thing is when it's done well it's amazing how many consultations that um i been in, particularly as I progress and learning the way not to do it and the way to do it. It's amazing how many times I've been in consultations where somebody has said, actually, I've just said to you something that I've never said to anyone else in my whole life. Sometimes it's from a 63-year-old man. Sometimes it's from a 54-year-old man.

Starting point is 00:16:46 So, and we are thinking, and that strikes me. I'm thinking, oh, wow. So for maybe 63-year-old man, so he's been conscious about his thoughts and about his wellbeing, maybe for the last 55 years, and he's been carrying that around. And it just, I think, it tells me

Starting point is 00:17:09 how much of the safety we can create and how it can trigger somebody's set up or initiate somebody's recovery process by doing it right. And sometimes people don't engage because they are worried about what they're going to find. People don't want to come to psychiatric consultations. They think it's almost like a death sentence being referred to a psychiatrist. And because of the fear of the unknown,

Starting point is 00:17:36 people don't engage. And of course, what then happens, sadly, is that outcomes are worse because of poor, because of the delayed intervention. Yeah, such incredibly powerful and privileged stuff to be part of, isn't it? And to be potentially the difference that makes the difference and to get in there early enough before things spiral. So quite often during a postnatal period actually for men can be really tricky after they've become a father for the first time perhaps they've you know witnessed

Starting point is 00:18:12 a traumatic birth perhaps they're worried for the life of their partner and their child and then they've struggled with that for years and years and years and then kind of meet me when the child's 15 18 20 whatever and we're then processing that birth trauma that's impacted on their ability to parent it might have impacted on their ability to grandparent you know to run their lives and had we been able to see them at a sooner period it would have just been liberating for them and so I absolutely echo what you say about do it now, you know, do it now. Because so many times people have said to me, oh, oh, well, I wish I had done this sooner. Because actually, you know, it wasn't as bad as in terms of really encouraging anyone who feels that they're at that point in which they're contemplating to just do it now.

Starting point is 00:19:11 Because that same message is what I hear all the time when people say, well, actually, I wish I'd done it sooner. It's not as threatening as I expected it to be. But also, I didn't expect that it was going to be such a beneficial process in terms of really the the it's like I dreaded coming um having these encounters but now I'm looking forward to it after a few sessions because I can actually feel that things are changing and moving in the right direction so um do it now is is is the same message that I would echo to anyone who is contemplating. And do you know what message I think is now becoming unhelpful about mental health support and therapy and intervention? It's one that I've heard lately quite a lot is that people are saying to me, well, I know it's going to get worse before it gets better when I'm working with you. And people are like, I didn't do it because I couldn't afford for it to

Starting point is 00:20:09 get any worse. But for me, it's like, actually, if we're managing you well, and helping you within your window of tolerance, we're not going to do things that are outside of your level of comfortability. So please, if I guess guess if if anyone's listening to this thinking i can't afford for it to get worse before it gets better i don't think that's necessarily what happens what's your view on that i i couldn't agree more because i think that it's important we i think the the role of the professional, be it a therapist, the psychiatrist, the clinical psychologist, or the psychotherapist, is to create that safety and containment. And I think part of our responsibilities is to help the person who is coming into that session to be able to manage some of the distress that they may feel, whatever it is. So part of the offer is to be able to manage the situation, whatever arises in the context of coming to those sessions for the first time. So really,

Starting point is 00:21:16 I absolutely agree that it can be very damaging because people don't understand what that means. It's going to get worse before it gets better. How long is a piece of string here? And somebody's already probably dealing with recurring panic attacks or having flashbacks. They can't imagine what it's going to be like for things to get worse. So really, that's a message that should be very clearly spelled out rather than just throwing it as a cliche.

Starting point is 00:21:50 It's going to get worse before it gets better. Because we are going to be there to hold anyone's hand when they come into that space. That's probably what we should be saying, I feel. Maybe we just change it to it's going to get better. Yeah, absolutely. Because it does get better and perhaps more people who for whom it's got better should really particularly people who have clout people who have a platform people who are celebrities people who are role models in society really need to be talking about the fact that yes it does get better

Starting point is 00:22:27 I took a chance on myself and I'm glad I did I think that's also an important message to put out there yeah and when someone it's more men who do say this to me actually than women when somebody says if I hadn't met you I would have ended my life you know and now i have hope for the future it's it's real it happens it you know this can transform people's lives and then transform the next generation too i like the generational part of what you just mentioned in terms of generation because really we do we do know, for instance, that adverse childhood experiences, that we do tend to carry that over. The impact of adverse childhood experiences is generational.

Starting point is 00:23:15 That if they're not dealt with, they start showing that it then becomes generational in terms of we will then pass that on those generational trauma onto our own children and then they will pass it on to their own children so really that's another incentive particularly for men who have one drain should i should i not because i know for most men because of the sense of responsibility that we carry passing inflicting um inflicting damage on the next generation inadvertently is not something that a lot of us would want to do. So that could be another reason actually to think that I'm not only doing it for myself, I'm doing it for my children, I'm doing it forvation is that people haven't always had their own male parenting experience.

Starting point is 00:24:13 And what's been really nice is when there's been males in the community who have kind of stepped up to kind of try to be a positive role model and I think that's really really important um what's your experience of that so that's that's um I totally agree on that count as well that the responsibility of males in in society particularly if one is a male who has managed to go through the rite of passage and you've got some things wrong, but you've also got some things right. And you're now at a place where for one reason or another, most people don't choose to be like that. But for some reason or one reason or another, people then look up to you. I think it's important to then extend the definition of parenting. So beyond biological relationships, I think there's a responsibility on the men who have managed to go through those rites of passage to look out for young people

Starting point is 00:25:18 in your community who might be rootless. Rootless in terms of they have no roots because there's no father figure in their lives. That's one thing that the Tripad Care Emotional Wellbeing Hub, for instance, looks out for in terms of quite a lot of young men through that hub that I've been able to connect with some of them that I didn't have one-to-one sessions with in terms of just really helping them to have somebody who who is a grounding factor in their lives and who creates a sense of safety to be able to help them to consider things to reflect and help them to join their own thoughts without being critical and yeah. Such important stuff so tell us

Starting point is 00:26:06 a bit more about the tripartite care mind gym how did you come to start putting that together yeah that's that's quite an interesting question and the reason is because it was quite a dramatic way so just talking about the benefits of social media because some people knock social media and say oh it's all rubbish but but there are benefits to social media we benefits of social media, because some people knock social media and say, oh, it's all rubbish. But there are benefits to social media. We met on social media, for instance. So my friend, just about the time we were entering into the second lockdown, was about September 2020. She puts up a post about another story she's heard about

Starting point is 00:26:42 holding her son from jumping off from a high-rise building. So they lived in a high-rise, and that was really, and I read that and I thought, oh my God, I've always been thinking about doing something for young men, particularly from young men who are from ethnic minority backgrounds, and this might be my opportunity so I sent my name box message and say actually I read your post and it just feels you know sometimes you read something and it just feels like it's all personal you feel that it's almost like destiny is calling my name like you've got to do something now do it now so I sent her a message and said that really strikes me and then she gave me the details and at that point i then thought okay let's put out a i was going to put out a post

Starting point is 00:27:33 and i did i said please inbox me if you're a parent who has a child who is struggling with mental difficulties at the moment or distress let's know um if you are if you would be interested in meeting and that was my opt-out clause. I'm being very transparent here. My thinking was nobody's going to respond anyway, and then I would have satisfied my conscience. I put out the post out there, nobody responded. And I was inundated with inbox messages. So I knew, okay, now you have to do something. And so we had this first zoom meeting February 2021 where people came together and we just said this is an open session and the attendance to start

Starting point is 00:28:12 with Saturday morning I was surprised how many people turned up and the stories so that was when we thought okay yes there is a bed that's in India and that's how it progressed. Great. So it's all online, is it? It's all online. We meet by Zoom and it's usually the last Thursday of the month. And it's usually from 7pm till 9pm. Is this over 18s? Is there an age spread or a range that you can cater for? Very interesting question. Because when the Zoom session started,

Starting point is 00:28:47 it was targeted at 18 to 35-year-olds. But then I began to get messages from parents who said, oh, you are being ageist here. You should really be catering for the parents as well. So these days, what happens is that there's no age restriction, but we then have the gym courses. The gym courses are targeted. So it's a six weeks course

Starting point is 00:29:09 where we discuss issues of identity. We discuss issues of finding your purpose, having a sense of what am I here for, dealing with issues of depression, stress, anxiety, and all of those. And that's ring-fenced for the 18 to 35-year-olds. And is that 18 to 35 for males, or is that males and females? Males and females.

Starting point is 00:29:34 Males and females, okay, yeah. Yeah, and, you know, I think, well done, well done. And I know before we started talking, we were talking about actually this going over and above monetary compensation for the work that we do. This is, you know, in your words, this is like a calling. This is because you really care about alleviating distress in people yeah that's that's an interesting conversation wasn't it because i think in order to continue to be a mental professional there must be and to do it well you must sit beyond just something that pays the bills uh there must be a sense of calling a sense of purpose that this is something that i'm caught out to do and and and it's also a privilege it's also a blessing to be able to do it because i feel that when we see the transformation

Starting point is 00:30:33 that you've spoken that you've eloquently spoken spoken about the the way people move on in their recovery journey some men confiding in you that if they hadn't met you they would have taken their lives there's no pay packet that can pay for that um i think it's far beyond so there must be a sense of purpose and calling that drives us and keeps us going yeah i definitely agree i definitely agree and i have that i think it's the way i've been raised by my dad who um sadly is no longer with us but he kind of had the the belief that if you can do something for someone then you should and I guess I've probably got some of that in myself as well. I yeah that's my ethos as well that if you if it's a privilege to be able to do to be in that position um i think sometimes because we live in society where sometimes we look at we're almost programmed

Starting point is 00:31:34 by media and by all the messages to make us look at life in the half full or half empty glass view when we are looking at the things that are going wrong. But if you're in a position to be able to do anything, it's a position of privilege and it's a blessing to be able to do that. And I think that's something that we should all do. We are the ones that benefit at the end of the day. Yeah, definitely.

Starting point is 00:32:06 It's a two-way street isn't it absolutely thank you so much for your time dr j it's been really really lovely speaking with you where can people learn more about you and about the tripart care mind gym right so uh so the tripart care um we've got a YouTube channel actually by the same name, Tripadcare. And we've got lots of videos on there where people can connect. And of course, on LinkedIn, that's where I put most of my thoughts and posts. I'm Dr. Tiara Dele Ajay on LinkedIn. And we've got a website that is still just developing there's not a lot of content there yet but also by the same in tripath care

Starting point is 00:32:51 thank you i will make sure that i link in the show notes and with the social posts and stuff so that people can find you easily but honestly it's been a pleasure speaking with you i feel like i could speak to you for for days and still not be done. If you had any advice for reducing burnout in the mental health professional sphere, what would that be? If there was any advice, I think it would be that one to make sure that one avails oneself of supervision, having a peer support group. But importantly, having a life outside of work. I think that sometimes as health professionals,

Starting point is 00:33:39 it's very easy for our job to become a persona and to become our identity. I think having outlets, something where, possibly not even doing it with people who are mental colleagues something that makes you grounded and keeps you in touch with reality is a good thing such brilliant advice um thank you again for your time um and for the important work that you're doing with your clients and with people that you may never meet face-to-face to. Thank you. And thank you for having me on the programme.

Starting point is 00:34:11 And thank you on the podcast. And thank you for doing this podcast to put message out there and to highlight, spotlight some of the brilliant things that are going on around. Gosh, speaking to Dr. Ajay was just like soul food. It was really, really lovely. I feel really privileged to have been able to have that conversation. And I hope that you found it useful for whatever reason that you are listening to or watching this, either because you work in mental health, or because you might be male or be looking at trying to help support and better

Starting point is 00:34:47 understand someone who is male what an incredible job i do what an incredible job he does and please know that there are people like us who work close to you so if you need care and support you need guidance and nurturance there are people out there who can help you who will get you who will hear you and can help make this different for you and those around you i just love what i do and if you love it too please help me spread the word about this podcast i look forward to bringing the next episode to you please do let me know what you think to the episodes. Come and connect with me on my social media. I am Dr. Marianne Trent everywhere. I will look forward to hearing what you think. And if you've got any ideas for future podcast episodes, please do let me know. And in the meantime, I hope you find the books useful, the Clinical Psychologist Collective, the Aspiring Psychologist

Starting point is 00:35:45 Collective, and I will look forward to bringing the next episode of the podcast to you from 6am on Monday. Thanks for being part of my world. Take care. If you're looking to become a psychologist Then let this be your guide With this podcast at your side You'll be on your way to being qualified It's the Aspiring Psychologist Podcast With Dr. Mary Entrance My name's Jana and I'm a trainee psychological wellbeing practitioner.

Starting point is 00:36:41 I read the Clinical Psychologist Collective book. I found it really interesting about all the different stories and how people got to become a clinical psychologist. It just amazed me how many different routes there are to get there and there's no perfect way to become one and this kind of filled me with confidence that, no, I'm not doing it wrong and put less pressure on myself. So if you're feeling a bit uneasy about becoming a clinical psychologist, I'd definitely recommend this just to put yourself at ease and everything will be okay.

Starting point is 00:37:24 But trust me, you will not put the book down once you start.

The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast - Men's mental health matters with Dr Ajayi

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