The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast - Outdoor Therapy with Dr Abi Tarran-Jones

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hi there, it's Marianne here. Before we dive into today's episode, I want to quickly let you know about something exciting that's happening right now. If you've ever wondered how to create income that works for you, rather than constantly trading your time for money, then you'll love the Race to Recurring Revenue Challenge with my business mentor, Lisa Johnson. This challenge is designed to help you build sustainable income streams. And whether you're an aspiring psychologist, a mental health professional, or in a completely different field,

Starting point is 00:00:32 the principles can work for you. There are also wonderful prizes to be won directly by Lisa herself. And if you join the challenge by my link, you can be in with a chance of winning a one-to-one hours coaching with me, Dr. Marianne Trent. Do you want to know more? Of course you do. Head to my link tree, Dr. Marianne Trent, or check out my social media channels, or send me a quick DM and I'll get you all the details. Right, let's get on with today's episode. If you're looking to become a psychologist, then let this be your guide. episode. With Dr. Marianne Trent Hi, welcome along to the Aspiring Psychologist podcast.

Starting point is 00:01:33 I am Dr. Marianne Trent and I'm a qualified clinical psychologist. So episode 72, can't quite believe it, but thank you so much, especially if you followed me right from the beginning your enthusiasm and knowing how much you value this is so appreciated and keeps me going please do take a moment to rate and review the podcast on spotify and on apple and if you are willing to leave me an audio testimonial or even just to drop into my DMs with a testimonial about why you like the podcast so much, I would be thrilled to receive it. I personally love learning about new ways to conduct therapy and to deliver therapy as well. And today's podcast is no exception to that. I'm going to be chatting with Dr. Abby

Starting point is 00:02:28 Tarrant-Jones who is the outdoor psychologist and we're thinking about practical ways to take what we do in the therapy room outside the traditional four walls of a therapy room. I hope you'll find it so useful, so interesting. Abby was a delight to speak to and I will catch up with you on the other side. Welcome along. I just want to welcome my guest for today, Dr. Abby Tarrant-Jones. Abby is a clinical psychologist and is the outdoor psychologist. Hi, Abby. Hi, Marianne. Thank you so much for coming on um i've been following you on linkedin i often talk about linkedin on here and it's how i get my guests i love linkedin

Starting point is 00:03:11 and i love when i see people that are doing psychology but doing it a little bit differently so that is absolutely how you caught my interest yeah Yeah thanks Marianne. I think I haven't always practiced differently so I am now working in an independent practice after kind of taking a big leap out of the NHS in order to kind of proactively innovate the way that I work. So as the title suggests I take therapy into nature and the outdoors and I'm really excited to talk to you about that today. And I know that I'm excited to learn but our audience will be really excited to hear and think about perhaps how they might be able to to start doing some of this as well. So I know before we went on camera we were saying that actually not everybody gets it do they not everyone thinks it's like an evidence-based thing

Starting point is 00:04:13 or it's something we even should be doing or whether we should be funding it is that something you're coming up against quite a lot Abby? I think that traditionally therapy has always been considered that it takes place in the four walls of the clinic room. And that's kind of how it's been delivered since kind of Freud brought up the idea of psychoanalysis. and a lot of the time we end up delivering treatments and therapies within organizations, within kind of standardized protocols and guidance in order to ensure that, I guess, the treatments we're delivering are effective and evidence-based and safe, etc. And the majority of the research that's been undertaken into talking therapies has been delivered in this traditional way. So I think what's fair to say is that the evidence-based

Starting point is 00:05:19 for outdoor talking therapy is developing. Sam Cooley has done a lot of research into the outdoor talking therapy is developing. Sam Cooley has done a lot of research into the outdoor talking therapy and developed together with Noel the BPS guidance for taking therapy outdoors which was published in 2020 pretty much on the back of or as a result of how practice was having to change because of COVID that suddenly we were thrust into this situation where we couldn't deliver therapy in the typical way so it was either we go remote and you know what what we recognized I was working at the time in the NHS in an older adult setting and there was many people who didn't have access to the technology didn't have the skills to access the technology and we were having to find more innovative ways

Starting point is 00:06:14 of providing therapeutic support to our clients so I think the majority of the world went remote. And what I loved was that Cooley really jumped on an opportunity to explore the power of outdoor torturing therapy and to invest some time in metasynthesizing the evidence base for that. so I guess I use a lot of the information that they developed through that guidance to inform my work and make sure that the therapy that I'm delivering is evidence-based and effective and I can talk more to a theme some of that evidence-based about our conversation today brilliant thank you yeah and I guess the guidance was already perhaps on its way but then the pandemic came around and it was like more relevant than ever yeah exactly I think um like we saw with COVID in many kind of organizational settings with unprecedented change came unprecedented opportunity for innovation um and it's wonderful in some ways that some clinicians and therapists started to kind of adapt the way they were working in some ways what

Starting point is 00:07:36 I think could be a bit of a shame is that as the restrictions around COVID have been removed there's a sense, do we go back to working as usual, or do we stay online? And I feel like there's a possibility that organisations can really, are really missing the boat here on embracing a truly kind of holistic and creative opportunity to engage with our clients and enable them to, I guess, have a more empowered position within their therapeutic and recovery journeys. Yeah, I think there's and there's real power to human connection, isn't there? And of course, the internet is really useful. But I personally haven't been in a therapy room with a client since the beginning of March 2020. So that is over three years now, which is strange, isn't it? Because I obviously learned my craft, as you will

Starting point is 00:08:42 have done, in person with people. And it's a very different craft indeed, isn't it? I obviously learned my craft as you will have done in person with people and it's a very different craft indeed isn't it even with us you know navigating connection speeds and things this morning and you know yeah in the beginning trying to sort out your audio and you know it's a different beast entirely I think it is um it's uh I guess I it sits uncomfortably with me in some ways i wouldn't be able to practice remotely um in its entirety like you have i was uh i guess fortunate enough working in older adult settings that given that people didn't have the technology or the access and to the internet or in some um uh some settings because of the socio um economic deprivation in the area they simply didn't have internet they didn't have you know anything that

Starting point is 00:09:33 would provide enough um network speed to support video conversations um so we did uh a lot of our therapeutic interventions in person in people's homes during COVID, which meant we were fully gowned up with our masks and our aprons and our gloves and that in itself brings all sorts of difficulty to the therapeutic process because there's a physical barrier between you, even though you were in the room with somebody, they can't see your face. You might be wearing glasses because at that point in COVID, they were worried about transmissions through bodily fluids and your eyes. And so there was no perfect way. But I really enjoy working with people face to face. I have an option to deliver therapy in my indoor practice, my outdoor clinic and online. And I choose to do the majority of my work face to face.

Starting point is 00:10:42 What you mentioned about having that human-to-human interaction is so important. But I guess in order to deepen that further and think about why we might bring the outdoors into the therapeutic process, is that there's something important about the human to other than human connection as well so what it is about being connected with nature and things outside of ourselves enables us to understand ourselves better have a deeper connection with kind of who we want to be and how we want to live in the world. And so I guess the opportunity to take therapy outdoors adds a whole new angle as well of enabling people to not only connect with you as a therapist but also for us to use nature as

Starting point is 00:11:51 almost like a co-therapist in the process. Brilliant thank you Abby. Could you tell us a little bit about you know you said the outside therapy space or the outside therapy room could you tell us a little bit about how you set that up and what that might look like if someone was being a fly on the wall yeah so I mean I chose a place called Codbeck Reservoir to be my outdoor clinic this is a beautiful little place just on the edge of the North York Moors in the North Yorkshire area. And it's, I chose it because, well some of it was practical, it's not too far from home so my commute is not too long, but many of the reasons I chose it was because of the different terrain and landscapes that that space provided. So the reservoir is, as it says, still late. There's some lovely little kind of very evenly paved paths around it,

Starting point is 00:13:00 so really supports people to engage if they have more mobility issues or feel that physically they wouldn't be able to do something too strenuous. But on the banks of the reservoir, you go up into the woodland area and you can find some of those paved but kind of steeper hills, but also some beautiful little snickets, which means that you're just getting into the trees, which is just wonderful for kind of mindfulness exercises and stabilization and grounding because you've got, you know, the stimulation of all of the five senses with the bird song, all of the sunlight streaming through the trees, the different vegetation, you've got the smells of being in the woodland, you know that earthy smell or the smell after the rain, and you've got the process of walking or moving which enables kind of a deeper kinesthetic experience to touch. So there's opportunities to kind of get off the beaten track,

Starting point is 00:14:07 get into the woods. And then there's also at the top of the woods, moorland, like kind of beautiful rolling moorland and kind of everlasting views across the Cleveland Hills. So there's an opportunity to literally throughout the therapy gain a different landscape or perspective as we move around. people make sense of their experiences depending on whether they're stuck in the middle of the trees in a darkened part of the wood versus at the top of the hill looking over vast expansive land so the very nature of being able to more walk through different terrains and landscapes means that people end up being able to view their experiences from very different perspectives. It sounds absolutely fascinating and yeah I do EMDR

Starting point is 00:15:14 and lots of work around trauma and it we're often kind of trying to find a safe space but the idea that you can in person in the moment you know create a unique safe space where you've also been with them is potentially really powerful isn't it yeah absolutely i mean we have to remember that when we're taking kind of deeply personal and emotive and sensitive therapeutic conversations into outdoor and potentially public spaces, there is going to be an impact in terms of somebody's psychological safety and confidentiality. OK, so what's really, really important in outdoor therapy is that as part of contracting and assessment and formulation, there's a deep understanding about what those individuals' experiences have

Starting point is 00:16:05 been in nature, whether there's been anything that could potentially be triggering or distressing for them, if they might find being emotive or being emotional and other people potentially passing by, if that could be a really difficult experience for them. So you've got to think creatively about how you prepare people for these situations and we'll have very individualized plans for what to do say if a member of the public comes past or if they meet somebody that they know because that's that's a possibility in these situations when taking therapy outdoors. But that's not to say that people can't make a plan that enables them to feel prepared and empowered enough to deal with that situation when it arises. And actually, on the very few situations where somebody has met somebody that they know whilst out in outdoor therapy,

Starting point is 00:17:05 it can often offer something useful for the therapeutic process in terms of whatever is enacted or triggered by that person coming into that client safe space can then be worked through in a way that you just wouldn't get if you're sat in the four walls of the clinic room so what I think some people might see as red flags if they're carefully and effectively managed within an understandable individualized contract can actually end up meaning that there's more opportunities for learning and development than perhaps we would have by just being in therapy in a therapy room. It just sounds you know so rich and powerful and so you know full of opportunity really and what might a typical sort of first session be like for somebody well it depends on the individual really and I offer what I often call

Starting point is 00:18:18 a hybrid approach which is where people have the power to choose whether they want the session indoors or outdoors. I'm really fortunate that my indoor setting is a little lodge converted at the bottom of my garden and sits within a woodland canopy. So even my indoor therapy is spent, you know, within a woodland, hearing the birds song with squirrels scampering over the roof and climbing down the drain pipes outside. So there's always some sense of connection with nature, whether you're taking therapy indoors or outdoors when you're working with me. But I think it's really important at the outset

Starting point is 00:19:00 that people are empowered to make choices in therapy. People often come for therapy when they're feeling stuck, when they're feeling disempowered, when they feel silenced or they have no voice. And sometimes just going to sit in someone up being something that can be again silencing or pressuring or intimidating in a sense so outdoor therapy or offering a hybrid approach it gives people an opportunity to make decisions and choices about where therapy takes place, how it looks, whether we take that outdoors if they just want to sit by the reservoir, they want to take a short walk or they want to get up into the hills. They choose whether to take it outdoors or bring it indoors and that seems to serve to settle some people. So I leave that choice to them.

Starting point is 00:20:07 And some people will choose to have the initial assessment sessions indoors because there's something containing about developing a relationship with somebody in the four walls. process that initial raw emotion in a space that feels a little bit more private before then taking the therapy outdoors. So some people choose to do that, other people really interestingly go I couldn't bear to be in a room with my distress or actually I couldn't bear to look at you in the face that's really intimidating and i just want to meet outdoors so i give them a choice and they can make those decisions if it's an outdoor therapy session what's really important is that we build in a sense of therapeutic frame and boundaries so that that also offers some sense of psychological safety to the individual but also to the practitioner so I have what I call a therapy threshold which is a place where we start and end therapy no matter what when we're outdoors it marks in some ways

Starting point is 00:21:21 that that idea of walking through the door of the therapy room. This is when therapy starts and it's when therapy ends. And it's my responsibility to get people back there within the hour, which can be challenging at times. But largely within the therapy, I give them the choice on where they go. So we meet a fork in the path, and they're choosing where they like the session to go. And this is what Cooley and the Wells suggested in the guidance offers an enhancement and an enrichment to a therapy that they call mutuality. So there's a mutuality that's developed within the therapeutic relationship, which means that that power imbalance has been broken down. It's less hierarchical.

Starting point is 00:22:15 They're no longer stepping into my space. I'm stepping with them into theirs or into our space. Nature isn't owned necessarily by anybody. Yes, we might have landowners, but it's a space for us all to embrace and we all have our own connection and story with being outdoors. So taking therapy outdoors means that it's no longer on my terms. It offers the opportunity for that client to feel comfortable in a space what's the word it's just calming in some way

Starting point is 00:23:13 you might be able to relate to this Marianne you know often people say well you know if I want to put the world to rights I'll go and have a walk with my friend and we'll talk about everything. And we can do that because there's no interpersonal pressure. We're not being scared out. We're not being watched. And being in nature, it's distracting in terms of the stimuli that's around us, but it's also calming and restorative. So we can have really deep and personal, intimate conversations in a way that feels less intimidating than if we were just in the house or trying to have a conversation over dinner.

Starting point is 00:24:02 So that mutuality and that sense of freedom that comes with working alongside somebody and kind of entering into their own world really frees up the therapeutic alliance and enables people to be much more expressive probably earlier on in the therapy yeah and i don't know if you're aware of it but um the founder of um EMDR who sadly passed away quite recently she put that together as a model initially because she'd been out for a walk and thinking about something that had been really problematic for her and observed that the very act of walking you know I think she was tapping her legs as she went sort of absent-mindedly she felt a lot better and so you know even talking think she was tapping her legs as she went sort of absentmindedly, she felt a lot better

Starting point is 00:24:45 and so, you know, even talking about things that are challenging as somebody is walking or using both hands, for example, you're getting that bilateral stimulation which helps everything process and lay flatter, doesn't it? Absolutely, absolutely and so bilateral stimulation is the core part of what taking therapy outdoors brings to the process, because walking, as you say, one foot in front of the other provides that bilateral stimulation of the brain, which we need in order to process traumatic experience and memories. So you don't really need to test or do any of that because walking itself will offer the same stimulation that's required. But kind of to deepen that a little bit more, we can take, we can think about the cat plan and cat plan theory about attention restoration. So in our day-to-day lives, you know, when we're working, when we're

Starting point is 00:25:48 on the computer, when we're studying, you know, we're on placements and we're actively trying to problem solve, decision make, you know, consider rationales for things um we're using a part of the attentional system called focused attention okay and when we're using that day in day out it's extremely fatiguing it's resource heavy um and that's why at the end of the day when we've kind of you know finish the day at work or we've been working on an assignment um or we've been um you know spending endless kind of hours looking at the computer doing zoom stuff it's it's kind of just um mind-numbing you might end up with a bit of fog might might have a headache, we might have reduced attention, our concentration might not be quite as good. What nature offers us is an opportunity to switch systems. So in nature, we tend to utilize part of the attentionalal system which is unfocused or spontaneous because we're

Starting point is 00:27:06 constantly just drawn to something visual in our in our visual fields or in our auditory fields or what we're feeling with the wind kind of brushing through our our skin we'll suddenly turn to that that place or away from it we'll see something we like we'll hear something we like and we're no longer engaging in focused attention we are using spontaneous attention and we're just drawn to whatever is around us so that automatically means that our eyes are moving left and right left and right left and right that bilateral stimulation happens no matter what um and um cat plan and cat plan suggested with attentional restoration theory that moving on to kind of that unfocused attentional system enables um uh the kind of a

Starting point is 00:28:03 restoration of concentrated or focused attention. So it actually ends up being something that's important for our cognitive restoration and supports kind of in terms of rest and managing fatigue. So just to kind of take that idea a little bit further, not just only is it about the walking and the movement of our body left and right, but our eyes are drawn and our senses are drawn in different directions. And that also offers another level of the bilateral stimulation of the brain. So useful. So interesting as well. Thanks for sharing that with us um i guess i'm thinking

Starting point is 00:28:45 about our audience being aspiring psychologists um and or mental health professionals um and i'm imagining you know in fact i did suggest going out and walking with clients and it was very family said no it's too risky um how do you begin to kind of have that conversation with employing trusts, managers, supervisors, teams around risk, Gabby? Well, I think it can be a little bit more difficult. But as long as you've got multiple levels of assessment of risk throughout your contracting and formulation, and you can make a clear articulated argument for why taking therapy might be in this person's best interest, then you should have a strong case. You can use the Cooley and Noel guidance to really help you to understand what needs to be considered as potential risks within outdoor therapy

Starting point is 00:29:46 and what might be required to mitigate against those. So, for example, in the assessment process, you would have questions about what that person's relationship is with nature, why they're drawn to taking therapy outdoors. Some people just have a natural affiliation with being outdoors. That's where they go to heal and to be invigorated. I know that's certainly the case for me. And that's a little bit about my journey into why I chose to become a specialist in outdoor therapy,

Starting point is 00:30:20 which I can share in a little while if you're interested. But you want to find out what the relationship that person has with the outdoors is, why they might want to deepen it. Now, some ecopsychologists suggest that actually, the research that we're looking at is the wrong way around. It's not that there's physical and psychological benefits to being in nature. It's actually the fact that due to industrialization and urbanization, humans have been removed from their natural communal settings.

Starting point is 00:31:02 And it is that disconnection with nature which is causing us distress and I think that's really powerful to the point where some people will suggest that there is a thing called nature deficit disorder that the reason we're hurting as humans is because we're no longer living connected with nature. We forget that as human beings, we are nature. We are an animal and an organism in this greater whole. But unfortunately, I guess the way that humans have developed in modern societies and modern cultures is that we often think ourselves as greater than nature and the things around us and that that has led to some

Starting point is 00:31:53 difficult situations like the climate crisis that we find ourselves in. But yeah so there's this sense that if we enable people to connect more with the natural world, not only will they gain the benefit of kind of, you know, reduced stress, reduced anxiety, lifted moods, sense of contentment, the physical benefits of being in nature are kind of linked to the reducing, kind of the suppressing of the stress response and supporting our immune system, supporting our cardiovascular system, those types of things. If we actually enable people to connect more with nature, they're going to reap the benefits of that. And I guess that's one of the reasons why I was interested in bringing therapy outdoors and making people more connected

Starting point is 00:32:57 with their natural land. Yeah, and I think in terms of services, you know, one of the very contentious issues when I was in the NHS was room availability in the service I was most recently in. But actually, this is a way potentially, I know you said that you've got an outdoor space and an indoor space. Potentially, this is a way of increasing capacity because we often have the staff but not rooms and so when I was in my most recent job at one point I had four peripatetic clinics that I'd set up which isn't very great use of my time you know diving all over the city but I was passionate about you know trying to maximize my time efficiently so that I could see you know the number of clients that was in my job plan

Starting point is 00:33:45 but not all therapists were doing that because they couldn't get the rooms and potentially introducing a new therapeutic outdoor space is quite useful in combating that difficulty yeah exactly I think so there's going to be logistical reasons why organizations might benefit from broadening their perspective on where therapy can be delivered. But also, I think there's something important about recognizing the impact on therapeutic outcomes for clients. clients like you I'm sure Marianne will have spent many a time many a session um in a room with a client and it's felt really really difficult it's felt like kind of the the phrase that's coming to my mind is like it's like drawing blood from the stone like people in some settings they they they close up they struggle struggle to feel safe enough to express themselves, particularly those people who have experienced some level of neglect or abuse,

Starting point is 00:34:55 find it difficult to trust others. For some people, being in a room with somebody is paralyzing. It removes their voice, they feel silent. For those people, actually the therapeutic outcomes that we can get from being in a room with someone is limited. So there were some people that I was working with at the time, prior to leaving the NHS, and I put a business case forward for them to take that therapy discussion outside. And thankfully, I had quite a creative lead psychologist at the time who authorised that for me. And it just transforms the work. You put that person in a setting which they feel safe in because it's theirs, they have ownership over it, and you're not staring them in the face. You're walking alongside them and suddenly they can speak.

Starting point is 00:35:53 And for those individuals, the therapeutic outcome, the benefit is going to be significantly better. So organizations are going to benefit from people having access to a therapy which is best suited to their individual needs, which means that they're going to be, we're going to be working through those wait lists in a way that meets everybody's differing needs. Now, not everybody wants to take therapy outdoors and not every practitioner wants to do that either. What's really important is recognising that there has to be a joint interest in taking that work outdoors.

Starting point is 00:36:42 Because if we end up trying to force some practitioners to do something they're not comfortable with, we're actually gonna damage the therapeutic process. And if we try and put everybody in outdoor therapy because we don't have rooms, when they don't have a natural affiliation with the outdoors, or maybe something traumatic or triggering happens for them outdoors,

Starting point is 00:37:04 we're gonna be doing people harm so it's not just about this is something we should just be offering it's coming back down to that very bespoke initial assessment and formulation about what is it about nature and being outdoors it's therapeutic or invigorating or restorative for this particular individual and how does that marry alongside their more generic and traditional therapeutic goals and bringing those things together absolutely so it sounds like it's bespoke for the client but also for the therapist as well um and yeah i'm imagining a number of clients i've worked with who've been you know salted in woodlands or went out running you know that's not that would just be flooding wouldn't it do

Starting point is 00:37:53 that to them straight off the bat exactly and some people don't realize so i've had people come exploring and interested in outdoor therapy and they've not made connections with their their experience which actually could end up being quite triggering or challenging for that person and that's not to say that we then don't do it we might do it in a more graded way and we might have very explicit things around particular parts of nature or interactions which would be more challenging and have ways of managing or mitigating against those becoming potentially triggering situations. So it's not a blanket rule and it's not one size fits all. It's very individualized and it can change. So I've had people who I've been working with indoors and we felt stuck to a point you know we've done some good work but

Starting point is 00:38:47 it's just not moved on um a particular client's coming to mind um I was working with him in relation to an abusive relationship that he was stuck in um but he hadn't realized it was abusive to start off with and had some really challenging suicidal ideation and intent around what he was struggling with at the time, although he didn't realise the reasons why he was feeling that way. We did a good piece of work using Kat to help make sense of the relational dynamics he was struggling with. And he knew he had to leave. But we kept getting snagged, you know, make really, really clear plans about how he can do that

Starting point is 00:39:34 safely. And he would get caught and pulled back in again. So I offered that therapy to take to go outdoors, sometimes putting one foot in front of the other literally means moving, becoming unstuck. And for him, it was the landscapes that really offered something very beneficial for the therapeutic intervention. So he was drawn to going up, you know, onto the hillside. And I asked him what he was feeling as he up onto the hillside. And I asked him what he was feeling as he got to the top when he was looking out over the expansive kind of landscape. And he just said, free.

Starting point is 00:40:18 This is freedom. This is what I want. This is what I need. And it was almost, it was a very powerful embodied emotional experience of what freedom felt like, that he didn't have any grasp of that before then. There was this sense of an emotional embodied experience that, oh, this is what I'm after. And versus seeing, which was a space just on the other

Starting point is 00:40:48 side of a dry stone wall of deforestation of kind of like a burial ground for trees and we went there and he was like oh god this is where I am this is where I'm stuck now it's like a graveyard I'm trapped um and we did some work about what what he needed to do to be able to either climb over the wall or walk through the gate and it was really powerful stuff um and the next session he'd left and I was like why did you leave and he was like oh because I knew what that felt like now I knew that that was worth it and it didn't matter how frightening it was the potential of leaving I knew I knew what hope felt like I knew what it looked like and I could climb over the wall

Starting point is 00:41:47 so powerful and such transformative stuff isn't it you know and yeah it's you never know what's going to be the difference that makes the difference until it's happened until it's done it's honestly we've just got the best job in the world to be part it's a real privilege isn't it to be part of people's stories and part of people's transformation and healing just before we finish I'm conscious of time and I would like to talk to you all day but um this career of ours can be really tricky to get into and especially around this time of year with interviews and you know people having other people's celebration their own celebrations or their own disappointments and that kind of relentless slog of autumn's coming I've got to

Starting point is 00:42:30 all again and you know I've got to do research I've got to do you know clinical work I've got to formulate I've got to reflect there's a lot um have you something I ask lots of my guests, have you got like a top tip to try and reduce burnout in people's lives, Abby? So I didn't live in Teesside or even know where Teesside was before I kind of applied to the course. And I applied to a variety of different universities in Stoke North because I'm a northern girl at heart. And when I came over here, you know, I did certain things for myself, good friendship groups I had, I did a bit of running that I enjoyed, but I was moving away from all my family and friends, let's face it, it was a really difficult time, I'd never lived in Teesside before, I didn't know anyone here, and so that was really challenging. But that's where my love for nature came in. I was, you know, I switched my road shoes for some trail shoes and I found a local running

Starting point is 00:43:55 group and I used them to help me to explore the local area. I downloaded OSMAP's app on my phone and I just immersed myself in nature. And I genuinely think that that was something that was hugely important in enabling me to feel a sense of balance when I was undertaking the doctorate program. there is so much pressure okay whether you're doing all of the work and all of the voluntary stuff and trying to get everything in your application or whether you're already on training and trying to figure out how to balance all of the different parts of the job that it's so important to hold on to something restorative for you. Restoration and working in a way that helps me to be invigorated and calmed was the reason I took therapy outdoors. That is the benefit that it has for me. So I guess make space for time in nature.

Starting point is 00:45:09 It is deeply therapeutic it doesn't need to be massive our connection with the outdoors and getting um benefit doesn't need to be you know going hiking in the lake district it doesn't need to be far away it can be as as simple simple as taking an early morning walk in can rest appropriately and manage all of the stress and the burnout that we might be experiencing throughout the day. So I guess a couple of things jump to mind. I really like the idea of a sit spot. So you could take five minutes and go and sit in a natural space, be that a park, a garden, a cemetery, by the beach. It doesn't need to be wondrous and awe-inspiring. And sit down, close your eyes,

Starting point is 00:46:22 tune in with your senses, what you can hear, what what you can feel perhaps the wind around you and slowly open your eyes look around you in your immediate vicinity look at the floor the grass beneath you perhaps even better have taken off your shoes and feel the grass underneath your toes and take in all that you can through your five senses and your immediate surrounding and then through that five minutes gently unfold a little bit further and look a little bit further into the distance until suddenly at the end of the exercise you've got your whole kind of experience you can turn around and take in the 360 degrees and just notice what it feels

Starting point is 00:47:05 like to be deeply connected through your five senses in a space in the in the natural world in your environment um and just take a pause for you take a pause in nature and connect and another thing that i really find valuable and it kind of links into the case example that I just shared, is that we can often find ourselves stuck or perplexed or with a question. We just feel indecisive and we can't find the right answer. Getting a different perspective is really, really valuable. There's times in that scenario where we see we can't see the wood for the trees, we're just stuck in the problem and we can't see a way out. So take that problem on a walk with you. You know, you might walk, if you can get up high, really great because there's a sense of helicoptering up when we get high.

Starting point is 00:48:08 We see things from a completely different perspective. We're enabled to think more reflexively about our situations when we have height. height or if we can't find height just gently allow that question to form as we take a walk through a wood or in nature in general and see what happens see what answer and what answers the natural environment can provide thank you that's the most wonderful um answer and i know it's one that people will find really useful it's not like a massive thing that you need to do everyone can find those five minutes and I've actually got we've got Easter break coming up as we talk today and I've got some time booked in in a woodland with my children so that makes me feel even more you know like that's the right activity to do so thank you for nourishing me in that way but an've had an absolute joy talking to you

Starting point is 00:49:06 today Abby. If people want to know more about you and your work where's the best place for them to follow and connect? Yeah so you can follow me on LinkedIn if you just look for Dr Abby Karen Jones I'm sure that you're going to put everything in the bio Marianne but also if you want to go to my website that's www.theoutdoorpsychologist.co.uk and then on Instagram I am the underscore underscore outdoor underscore psychologist so you can look for me in a variety of different places and if you're interested to learn more about what I do reach out connect I'd be curious to hear your questions or to hear your reflections on what you've heard today. Thank you so much, Abby. I'm sure you'll be, yeah, you'll be very popular.

Starting point is 00:50:09 People will be tapping up your little inbox. So thank you very much. It's honestly been really, really interesting and yeah, really nourishing speaking to you. And I'm going to definitely think about how I can enrich my own life with more outdoors stuff, but also my children as well who are still quite young as well so yes thank you so much. Yeah you're welcome Marielle

Starting point is 00:50:31 and thank you for inviting me today it's been lovely to speak to you. Thank you so much to our guest Dr Abby Tarran-Jones. I hope you found that as interesting as I did. And it certainly made me think about how we use our bodies, how we use our voices, where we deliver therapy, and the value of the setting in which we deliver it. Let me know any salient learning points for you. Also, let me know what's happened if you've tried to take therapy outside of traditional therapy walls in your trust or wherever you work and how you got on. Love to know what you make of all this in the free Facebook group, the Aspiring Psychologist Community, brackets, free group with Dr. Marianne Trent. So do come on over there. Please do come and connect with me on my socials as well. I'm Dr. Marianne Trent everywhere. And

Starting point is 00:51:32 if you're watching on YouTube, even if you're not watching on YouTube, slip on over, type in Dr. Marianne Trent, click subscribe and like a few things as well. If you're feeling particularly generous, please fling some comments into some of the videos as well. I realized that I've done it again. I realized that I had it in the diary to do a compassionate Q&A on Monday, the 17th of April. But that's also the same time that I have an expert in the membership, guiding people through CBT formulation and skills. And it was all about how to do that well and how to think about planning your intervention and talking about your intervention, which can be really useful for interviews as well. And that was on my mind and in my diary for 7.30, but I'd neglected to

Starting point is 00:52:27 see that I was also supposed to be running a free Compassionate Q&A. So I'm so sorry. I am likely to schedule it for a Tuesday because I think I need to keep Mondays free because Mondays are the days where we have Marianne Mondays in the membership. And clearly, it's too much for me to hold in mind that I've got two things happening at 7.30 on a Monday so it is likely to take place on Tuesday the 25th of April at 6pm so I'm going to get that in the diary and I really hope you can join me and I'm once again very sorry for anybody that was hoping to catch up with me last Monday. I totally forgot. To err is human.

Starting point is 00:53:07 And again, I'm sorry. And if you needed that for your interviews, I can only apologize. As you might well know, we have new episodes of the Aspiring Psychologist podcast landing at 6 a.m. each Monday morning. And so have a lovely week, be kind to yourself, and I'll look forward to catching up with you for our next episode. Thanks for being part of my world. Take care. Professionals on their way to getting qualified. So many tips and lessons to learn from. So many things that you can try.

Starting point is 00:53:53 The Aspiring Psychologist Collective. The Aspiring Psychologist Collective with this podcast I feel sad you'll be on your way to being qualified it's the aspiring psychologist podcast with Dr Marianne Trent My name's Jana and I'm a trainee psychological well-being practitioner. I read the Clinical Psychologist Collective book. I found it really interesting about all the different stories and how people got to become a clinical psychologist. It just amazed me how many different routes there are to get there and there's no perfect way to become one and this kind of filled me with confidence that no I'm not doing it wrong and put less pressure on myself. So if you're feeling a bit uneasy about becoming a

Starting point is 00:55:22 clinical psychologist I definitely recommend this just to put yourself at ease and everything will be okay. But trust me, you will not put the book down once you start.

The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast - Outdoor Therapy with Dr Abi Tarran-Jones

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