The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast - Retraining, Dyslexia, Thesis Hiccups & Making a Difference with Challenging Populations, with Dr Deborah Kingston

Episode Date: July 4, 2022

Show Notes for The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast Episode: 30: Career Changes, Dyslexia and Making a Difference with Challenging Populations with Dr Deborah KingstonThank you for listening to the Aspiring Psychologist Podcast. Today’s guest speaker, Dr. Deborah Kingston, shares here journey through the Royal Air Force to Clinical Psychology. She shares some experiences she had when working in forensic settings that I think you will all enjoy, and that have something to teach us about how we help others and view behaviour. She also talks about her journey with dyslexia and when her clinical training took an unexpected turn.  I hope you enjoy listening as much as I enjoyed the recording! The Highlights:      00:28: Introducing the lovely Dr. Deborah Kingston02:15: Through the Royal Air Force to psychology·       09:00: A thesis in 13 months!        10:14: Parenting and other plates to spin!·       11:41: Trauma and the military       13:20: Learning and imposter syndrome       16:54: Working with Trauma in forensic settings·       19:57: When we cannot help others in a clinical setting·       22:47: Seeing more than just the behaviour ·       27:14: Keeping in contact        29:16: Private practice and helping those that cant afford it ·       29:57: The challenges of working in a prison·       32:22: Using supervision·       33:16: Failing a thesis – what now?!·       36:12: Reducing burnout     37:46: More amazing advice!Contacting Dr. Deborah Kingston: LinkedIn: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/dr-deborah-kingston-658871b9Links: Connect socially with Marianne and check out ways to work with her by clicking on her LinkTree: www.linktr.ee/drmariannetrentTo check out The Clinical Psychologist Collective Book: https://amzn.to/3jOplx0 Like, Comment, Subscribe & get involved:If you enjoy the podcast, please do subscribe and rate and review episodes. If you'd like to learn how to record and submit your own audio testimonial to be included in future shows head to: https://www.goodthinkingpsychology.co.uk/podcast and click the blue request info button at the top of the page.

Hi there, it's Marianne here. Before we dive into today's episode, I want to quickly let you know about something exciting that's happening right now. If you've ever wondered how to create income that works for you, rather than constantly trading your time for money, then you'll love the Race to Recurring Revenue Challenge with my business mentor, Lisa Johnson. This challenge is designed to help you build sustainable income streams. And whether you're an aspiring psychologist, a mental health professional, or in a completely different field,

the principles can work for you. There are also wonderful prizes to be won directly by Lisa herself. And if you join the challenge by my link, you can be in with a chance of winning a one-to-one hours coaching with me, Dr. Marianne Trent. Do you want to know more? Of course you do. Head to my link tree, Dr. Marianne Trent, or check out my social media channels, or send me a quick DM and I'll get you all the details. Right, let's get on with today's episode. If you're looking to become a psychologist, then let this be your guide. episode. With Dr. Marianne Trent Hi, welcome along to the Aspiring Psychologist podcast.

Thank you for being part of my world. Today I am joined by a lovely lady by the name of Dr. Deborah Kingston. And we first connected on social media. And it feels like we spent the last couple of years during the pandemic chatting and cheering each other on from the sidelines but today was the first time I've been able to speak with her you know one-to-one actually in real time and so it felt like a real treat. I really wanted to invite Deborah on for a variety of reasons because I think she has so much that so many of you will be able to resonate and connect with for a variety of reasons actually. So we are talking about coming to psychology slightly later than average, we are

talking about dyslexia, we are talking about retraining, talking about working in tricky areas, managing tricky situations, mental ill health, you know, striving for being a psychologist whilst being a parent. We've got it all covered. It's a punchy, interesting, engaging episode. And I hope you will find it so useful. I will catch you on the other side. Hi, welcome along to this very special episode where I am joined by Dr. Deborah Kingston. Deborah, thank you for joining us. You're welcome. So you are a fellow clinical psychologist, but your route to clinical psychology may not look like you know a typical textbook assistant you know bit of a master's get on to doctorate and done. Would you like to tell people a little bit about your history? So when I was seven well let's start I

left school didn't have a GCSE no qualifications whatsoever was told I was a little bit sick and incapable of learning I think that's what one of the teachers said to my parents on a parents evening uh so uh I decided to join the RAF and that was my escapism from home and a life that really wasn't going to offer much opportunities so I joined the RAF age 17 and did quite well but it was during my RAF career I started to get educated and I was I worked really hard in the RAF and it was quite male dominated as you might imagine and it was really hard to kind of get ahead in a little bit of a way but I still I did really well I got promoted but I did accountancy so I was a catering accountant I dealt with a lot of numbers I dealt a catering accountant, I dealt with a lot

of numbers, I dealt with a lot of people, I dealt with a lot of problems, because drinking and the RAF problems, people would always come to our boss, and I'd be like the gatekeeper to the boss to go talk to him, so I really had this flair for chatting to people, which I quite liked, and then in 2003 I became quite poorly with my mental health you know severely being bullied by a senior rank um who you know a lot of ganging up and stuff and the medics just wanted to medicate me and said antidepressants for the rest of your life you know there you go and it was during my time off sick I helped one of my friends do a psychology module for their social work course and it just felt like this was an easy thing to be doing for her like and she'd failed it so she'd come saying I failed this module I need to redo it I'm really struggling

and I was like oh yeah but you know this one says this and this is really exciting and this is really good and it was like a real flair and I'd been doing a business degree so I was only two modules short of my BA in business studies and it was then she said have you thought about doing psychology so I called the Open University which again is not a conventional route for clinical psychologists and I joined the OU and I did my first course and luckily for me there was a lady that had left Cambridge University and moved up to the north of Scotland and had a little freehold and just wanted to do a little bit of teaching. On my second essay, she wrote at the bottom, come see me after lecture. This subject's not for you. She told me in that lecture, I was amazing last time. And I was like really conflicted.

And then when I went to see her at the end, she's no no Deborah I don't need to see you really good lecture again and I'm like right whoa you're confusing me now and I pulled these essays out and I said because you wrote this and she's like oh my god why don't you just tell me you were dyslexic and we could have sorted something out and I'm like do what and she's like how has nobody pointed out to you that you are severely dyslexic and I was like well they just said I was thick and she's like no you can clearly tell by your verbal ability you know your stuff but your written ability is just so poor uh we just need to get you some software and some techniques and that'll make a difference. And I went from basically going from a thank you for coming degree to 5% off for first.

That's all I was at the end. And I got a high two on, really pleased with it. To be honest, I didn't even know that I was going to become a clinical psychologist because every single time we went to an open university thing, they said to you, if you're over 30, you're too old to become a clinical psychologist. If you're just doing your degree now and you're over 30, rule out becoming a clinical psychologist. Because clinical psychologists, you go A-levels, you go degree, you do some work experience,

you do a master's, you get an assistant post you go on the doctorate course that's your route and I was like oh god I'm I'm I'm not just over 30 I'm well into 30 I was like okay anyway I I then I started working an admin job in the nhs which i turned clinical a little bit i could do some audits and i did some clinical interviewing for the audit and then i published the audit because i wanted to try and then somebody said come get an assistant job but you need to like have some experience um and then i took the risk and left my full-time paid job with a mortgage and two kids and jumped ship to a six-month fixed term assistant psychology post with less money and I thought I've got to do it got to do it and then I started that job in chronic fatigue services a brilliant psychologist headed up that service

but it was only six months she said we can't do any more after that and then I got another job in forensics in the same trust but again only six months and it was there I really studied to apply for the doctorate you know when I did oh I missed a bit I did an honorary assistant psychology job in the evening after my admin job all day in a learning disability unit with challenging behavior and the year before my supervisor had asked me to do the doctorate form and I had been like okay I'll do it and then when I went to my next supervision with him he said where is it I said it went in the shredder and it was the most cathartic experience ever because I could see the gaps I didn't have which is what then made he said take the risk go fix them

so I did that and then yeah I applied for the doctorate thinking go for feedback because nobody gets on the doctorate first time or it's quite rare the Trent course is quite grueling like really grueling um and I thought I'll go for the feedback but I made sure I studied every night in prep for that interview just so I could go for the feedback but I made sure I studied every night in prep for that interview just so I could give myself the best shot and that year they dropped the places from 20 to 19 and I was first reserved for a place and that's how I got that's from the RAF different things onto the onto the doctorate that's incredible deborah and actually a real few magic moments there you know the moment of um discovering accidentally you know

psychology degree really and then being told you're dyslexic and do you know it was like potentially lots of things suddenly might have added up and, you know, ends came together that really gave you important answers. And then, of course, I think telling you that you can't do something, I think it's probably similar to telling me that you can't do something. It's really difficult. It's like, well, I'll show you, you know. Yeah, I really try and being because, you know, also on on the doctorate course I'm the only person on the Trent course to actually submit to full thesis because and they failed my thesis on a technicality

of one word which my tutor had actually changed my research question with me and they failed me on that question and they said I had to do a brand new thesis from scratch and they thought I'd resign they thought I'd come off the course because I wouldn't want I wouldn't have had time to do another thesis and I turned that thesis around in 13 months from idea to ethics well I didn't need the ethics still to put it through 13 months start to finish and it but I put you know I went up to like nearly 15 stone I was very heavy you know my husband was away in the RAF he did he did the Libya campaign he's done Afghanistan during that time you know he did Iraq prior to that so the four years I was on my doctorate course I think he probably only spent about 200 days of that four years at home

in that four years and I had a and I had a child to look after my eldest had moved out and it was just it was it was a difficult time but it's well worth it for what I do now that said it really shows what we're doing to our aspiring psychologists doesn't it you know because we are trying to live lives at the same time and it is a grueling process you know there is many different um plates that you're having to spin at that time you know you had the additional um I was gonna say complication but let's say let's say additional joy of being a mother um no seriously it felt like a complication at the time because nobody else on my course had children well there was only one other lady that had children and she she also found being a mother

quite challenging you know the rest not even all of them were married you know they didn't have that juggling act and I think we are you know sometimes when you see these assistants desperate to get on a course and celebrate and they've got on a course like I remember cheering when I got on the course and when I reflected back on it the other week I was like really I don't think I'd be cheering if I knew what I was in for it is and some courses I've got to say are really better than others and more diverse than others uh my course was not um it was really challenging but I'm they taught me a lot although trying to tell me that I would no longer be dyslexic after I finished the course

I you know they know something we don't about dyslexia apparently I was going to do that much reading and writing I would cure myself yeah interesting again they you know a lot of academic psychologists that teach clinical psychologists you know are very different you know and i think clinical psychologists then go off to split in different domains you know some go neuroscience some go academic you know i think i was very much i wanted to help people I wanted to help overcome trauma because you know for me being a child I did a lot of trauma I had a lot of trauma in the RAF and I just felt that I could I could really understand people not from a book not from a manual but from actually from some lived experience of just being in services.

There's lots of evidence to suggest, isn't there, that people who've had developmental trauma are more likely to end up in an armed force or in prison as well, you know? Yeah, yeah. Well, if you think about the ACEs, that's very much so. But the military does attract people with a lot of developmental trauma gives them a real family yeah you know it gives them a purpose and a structure and boundaries and rules you know like i'm early for everything

like literally everything i can't be on time because that's late because the military teach you that if you're going to do something, you're five minutes early because that means you're on time. Oh, Deborah, even getting ready for this podcast, I confirmed with you, didn't I, as I was about to eat my lunch. And you were like, yep, I'm just making a cup of tea and then I'll be ready. And I was like, oh, my God, I'm still eating my yoghurt. But that's how it goes.

That's just, you know, I've been out of the military a lot longer now than I was in it you know I left in 2006 but I you know I just I'm more I still have some of those ways I like if I tell somebody I'm going to do something I do it I never break a promise um I work way too hard because in the military there's a really hard work ethic. So I do know that. But sometimes that can also in clinical psychology worlds or that's not what they're used to. They're not used to somebody like me. And again, if you're a little bit different, regardless whether it's sexuality, whether it's color of skin, whether it's class and background, you know, if you're a a bit different you're going to really feel the weight of the clinical psychology course sometimes

because it can feel like you don't fit in that you don't belong there um and I was very prickly on my doctor course I'm not going to lie I think I probably annoyed a few people at times because I constantly ask questions because I love verbal feedback. Like I really learn through people talking to me and listening. It's that connection as well, isn't it? Often in teaching, you don't have the same connection. It's not personal. Yeah.

And I just needed it. But I think a lot of people wanted to be silent and thinkers or just get in and get finished early to go to the pub or just go and lay lay and do nothing I think there was probably some of them too yeah yeah that's not me I'm always like what I need to learn this more and I still like I do so much CPD now like I'm always on a CPD course like my husband's constantly saying what another course why do we need another course now. Like I'm always on a CPD course. My husband's constantly saying, what, another course? Why do we need another course? And I'm like, I need to know more because what if I don't know enough?

What if I don't know it? What if a client sits in front of me and I don't know what to do? It's like, you do need a mother. What's your advice to our audience if they are feeling that imposter syndrome, they've got that worry that that someone's going to ask them something that they don't know well do you know what when I was on my third year of my course my supervisor had said asked me a question that there was no answer to and I really really struggled to say the words I don't know they literally choked in my throat as I was scrambling in my head for the answer

and I couldn't just say to her look I don't know I'll go check and I'll come back and see you I literally froze on the spot in that imposter syndrome moment I like she's found me out kind of thing and she's like Deborah I've asked you a question there is no answer to I was like why would you do that she said because you have to learn to say I don't know and I don't know can be okay and I was like what do you mean I don't know can be okay my chest in that moment felt like it was literally crushing I was like what do you mean I don't know is's okay we're meant to know the answer this is what they're paying us for and she's like no they're not they're paying for you to then go away and

think about it come back to them I was like oh so that's now when I don't know something and somebody asked me something I genuinely don't know it it took me a long time to say I can just say I don't know. Okay, so you can sit with that now and be okay with that. But if people can get there quicker with that, it'll save them a whole host of worry and hassle. Yeah. So where did you end up working when you first qualified then?

What did you do? I got a job at Lincoln Prison. And I absolutely loved it. I was finishing my thesis. I didn't quite have my doctor's title or the banding or the pay, but that's OK. I absolutely loved it. I went in there and the guys at Lincoln Prison were amazing. I set up a trauma-informed work group for both prisoners in the vulnerable prison wing and then the other wings because you had to keep them very separate. And initially the prison thought we'd only do a group for one type of population, not for both.

And I just felt that both populations really needed it because the one thing we found, like you said earlier, the majority of people that end up in prison have had developmental trauma but the one biggest thing I found through working there was nobody recognized those guys as victims it was heartbreaking some of their stories Marianne were really really heartbreaking in terms of the abuse they suffered, the neglect they suffered, and the fact that nobody cared until they pitched up in the criminal justice system. And then there was more a big stick approach than a trauma-led approach. approach and it was through group work and eventually EMDR that the guys I worked with really started to notice their own victim status and how they needed that to heal but in doing that they noticed that they created victims and you know and the prisons put on these victim empathy courses that supposedly teach them how to have victim empathy but unless they truly get to the roots of their own trauma they have to defend the fact that they've got victims because it'll just make them feel more vulnerable okay so a lot of the

joined up that compassion haven't you that's what you've done yeah but then i then then they started to spread my job a bit thin so I had to then cover Lincoln and Nottingham and then Lincoln Nottingham North Sea Camp the open prison and then it was Lincoln Nottingham North Sea Camp and Morton Hall the Immigration Removal Centre now that again was quite harrowing seeing people dragged in because they had failed to complete a form in time or were deemed to be a risk now yes if you commit a crime over a certain length of time apparently you then are likely to be deported however there was a lot of people in that immigration center who had not committed a crime who had come here for what they thought was a better life their journeys were terribly

terribly distressing from leaving their country of origin and their family at home and being almost imprisoned because they tried to find work and do the right thing um and even some of the issues like the idea of sending somebody back to a country that was homosexual which which would have led to their death. You know, I just thought, no, that's not the society. So I felt like I had a real fight for them. So, you know, I wanted to get their voice heard within that system, within that home office system. So, again, in that place, I did teachings for home office staff around trauma and the impact of trauma because

they'd say well they didn't tell me that on the first I didn't hear that they haven't told me that so therefore they're lying to you and I'm like why do you think they might not have been able to tell you about their most traumatic experience anyhow and so we do some work on what was your interview skill like what how did you present them did you make them feel safe in the room and they're like it's not my job to make them feel safe um some of the immigration removal officers were brilliant and they'd get all that information it's the same as prison officers prison officers would say prisoners were needy and manipulative and they and they all they always choose the soft officers and And I said, and I remember saying to an officer one day, he said, am I being manipulated?

And I said, who would you go to on this wing right now if you had a problem? Which officer would you select? And he named them and I said, why is your behavior then not deemed to be manipulative, but their behavior is when they choose the same officers? And so I did a lot of psychoeducation around that. I thought that was really important.

And it was a shame because the prison employed somebody to come in and be the boss of therapy services who had no therapy experience, wasn't a clinical psychologist, didn't meet this essential criteria. And then called me IAPT and told me I was to stop working with patients therapeutically, do desktop analysis. And at that point I said, no. If I'm not going to see and help patients, I'm leaving. And that's why I then went private. OK. Oh, it's very difficult, isn't it? Because I know, you know, this work matters deeply to us as clinicians and humans. And when we feel we can get that human connection and make a difference, even for one person, it's incredible and it's powerful.

And it keeps you coming back to work, even on tricky days. But once someone gets in the way of, you know, I think it's that idea of moral injury, isn't it? And I'm not willing to work in that way. And that's actually more challenging to me to watch that go by and not be able to do anything. That becomes a trauma in itself for ourselves if we stay. And you're then left with the decision of leaving a job that you love and a client population that you love very much because I can't be party to it anymore I can't just go in and help people you know the amount of times I would go on a wing walk through and just stand with somebody and ground them you know I went to Nottingham once and I changed days just because I had to and as I walked in I heard that

one of my patients was on the netting and they were calling in the national team to get him off and I and I wandered up to the wing. Can you tell us what can you tell us what that means? Paint us a picture of on what on the netting means. In each prison as you go up the steps there's a net between each floor so somebody can't fall and land on the bottom floor so they can't basically commit suicide but they're on this netting and it's quite still a little bit dangerous and they're literally suspended in the air on this net so if you fall from a trapeze rope onto some netting you'd normally be able to roll off and get off in the prison you can't really do that you have to then get yourself to the edge and you have to climb off um but prison officers because it's dangerous won't go on and get you off so they won't go get locked up they won't go back to

their room they won't do what they're being told to do so the prison officers have been doing this merry dance for a few hours now he's been on the netting he's not coming off he's right in the center and i so i go in and he sees my face as if saying no it's not necessarily an act of suicidality it's an act of I really don't want to be around anyone I don't want to do what you want me to do I don't want to do but also he knew he would get a kick in because the national team would come in and manhandle him off there and put him down to segregation so he'd get to be alone in a room in segregation away from all of it so it was functional in the fact that it's like basic behavior in nurseries isn't it you know it makes a lot of sense he just

needed to de-stimulate it was too busy for him it was too much he was overwhelmed he was also due to be released he'd been in prison on and off since he was like 17 he's never really known the outside world he was bloody petrified just dysregulated in every area yeah so I go on and I say to the prison officers look I'm gonna get him off here and they laughed and like he never comes off he gets this is the process and I said no I'm gonna get him off but when I get him off we're going into the little office and I'm gonna just talk to him and that's not protocol he has to get no I'm like no but neither is me getting him off protocol let's just try to do something different let's see if we can avoid him getting the kicking avoiding going to segregation let's see if I can get him that like let's see if we can

re-regulate him let's see if we can get him to choose a different behavior that's more adaptive let's go with that idea so literally i walked over and i stood there and he's like that's that's what you're doing here that's what you're doing here and i was like i've come to get you off the net and he's like but they'll give me a kick in devs if i come off those prison officers or jump on straight away i said no i've got the assurance that's not going to happen me and you are going to go to the office and we're going to have an hour just in the office and he's like you promise if I come off this net and we're having that hour and I was like promise and literally I had to get him even before he could get himself over the bars I got him just to notice the feel of the netting on his hands to notice the feel

of himself there to notice the connection with me and then to come and hold on to the bars and notice how cold they felt on his hands and just ground himself before he then flipped himself back over the bars onto the landing to then walk down the landing to go in a little office and he sat in that little office on the floor like he was a five-year-old boy petrified saying that they're gonna burst through the doors don't don't want you to get hurt Deb so you stay away from me just in case they burst through the doors Debs they're gonna don't don't want you to get hurt Debs so you stay away from me just in case they burst through the doors and I can't have you hurt and I'm like they're not coming in it's fine let's and I got him regulated and I said but what's this all about and he said um my girlfriend wrote a letter in and she's breaking up with me and I'm due out next week I didn't know what else to do so I thought well they'll keep if I create havoc I get I'll get extra days and then I might stay in and I'm like are you really that scared so we then

were able to process why he was really that scared of being released and what stepping stones did we need to put in place for him to be released safely so it was a really it was a beautiful thing but and I do miss not being able to go do that because those clients aren't going to walk through the door of my private practice which is a shame I bet you still live in their hearts and that's the incredible power about what they wrote to me some of them wrote to me um you know I've had drawings I've had writings I once worked with a guy who called me a see you next Tuesday for eight sessions, ripped up loads of ID cards, wouldn't work. And then I said to him one day, look, I need to be your co-driver on this journey of change.

Like, let's get on this train. Let's make a difference. I'll be a co-driver. And let's see what we can do. He's a Manchester lad. He was over here in Lincoln. You know, we talked about Holland's pies and Morby's bread you know it was something that just helped us connect and if you're from Manchester and Lancashire you'll know what Holland's pies are if you're from anywhere in the country you might have to google them and it was something so simple to him and he'd he'd been failed by mental health services and every prison he'd ever been in he was hooked on lots of prescription medication you know he was on the hook but he had been in and out of prison again since 15 putting this window through this house um constantly and then we did

some really good work with him and he recognized the house that he keeps putting the windows through is the man that abused him but what he'd failed to realize in his head was that man had moved on years ago and it was always new families in that house that he was putting their windows through on. So nobody joined up the dots that this was part of his trauma. And nobody treated his trauma. You know, this dad had been abused by everybody in his family. It was probably one of the most horrible abuse cases I've ever heard. And we worked really well together and then I managed to get him in a drug rehab service over in Manchester he then wrote to me and said

do you want to come to my graduation because I'm about to drive my train for myself I no longer need a co-driver but you're still there and it was like oh it brings that shivers down my spine it's just how amazing is that really really incredible it was never was never gonna never been it's never been seen before so to me that was beautiful but I still do some I do some free work in clinic with some veterans that can't afford private therapy who've been let down by the system so because i am a veteran that they're like the group i tend to even in the prison i used to go to the veteran groups you know the prison officers would go to those veteran groups we made the prison officers would just put a normal jumper on over their uniform kind of thing so they didn't look like prison officers while we all sat around the table um and uh we'd take biscuits in and we'd have a cup of tea now i know tea and biscuit is something

that you think but they don't get them in prison you know and it was just that area to like let's think about this let's just did you take did you take nice biscuits yeah of course i did when it was my turn but then they couldn't have foil on and you couldn't have this and you had to decant them out if they had any foil to them that's a risk hazard in prison so you weren't allowed um yeah but prison work was amazing so anybody that wants to go to prison by the way absolutely 100 and if you look at the Scotland stuff they're doing loads on compassionate prisons amazing I loved forensic work until I became a mummy and then for me it just changed the way I felt I felt more vulnerable um but I know lots

of people that do work um in prisons um whilst being a parent as well yeah that was hard because there was only one time it really impacted on me which was when I was doing the assessment of a sex offender and and he'd come in on multiple multiple counts scout leader that impacted me on what I was going to let my son do at the clubs he was going to I was constantly hyper vigilant around that and I started to notice that was not a great thing as a mummy um but this day when I was interviewing this sex offender he literally told me about he told me about boyfriend and I'd carried on with the assessment and then all of a sudden I went uh hang on a minute just just let me tell you back in a minute how old is your boyfriend and he said the same age as my son at the time and I was like

that's and I and I was quite shocked and I said to him that's not your boyfriend that's a victim and I was really indignant about it and then anyway I then took a breath and I carried on with the assessment and at the end of the assessment I said to him how did that go for you and he was like well you really didn't like it when I talked about my boyfriend and I said he's not your boyfriend and he's like yeah but you didn't like it he wanted me to agree with him and I can't you can't collude you're just gone but that was the first time I ever felt quite rude in a session where normally as clinical psychologists that we keep that nice face sometimes so yes and we'll just you know but I'm really I've got facial leakage like

you what you see with me is what yeah I'm like if I if I'm know but I'm really I've got facial leakage like you what you see with me is what yeah I'm like if I if I'm confused or I'm horrified I show it because I think it's more transparent and genuine for the client but with him that day I was furious but it really impacted on me on my own child that day was really hard and the way we deal with that is obviously take it to supervision as well don't we let's model that as appropriate as well yeah we take it to supervision but sometimes supervision sometimes you need to go for a run yeah or you need to scream it out or you need to go then actually there's a whole host of good ways the supervision for me any assistant psychologist anyone that wanting to get on this course

get in the habit of being vulnerable in your supervision because yes when you go it's all right to swear on these things we can we can bleep it but basically when you fuck up you don't learn if you don't go talk about it yeah how do you learn to overcome something you've done wrong if you don't talk about it open and honestly and supervision because then you learn better and we get better at who we are we do we do um i know that my audience will be really keen just for us to clarify the process around what happens if when you're on a doctorate course your thesis is failed so my understanding is that you then qualify as an unqualified um clinical psychologist and you don't get paid anymore you have to do the

thesis in your own time and you'll need a job is that right no so basically you're still attributed to the course that you're doing your thesis for you're right you have to stay on your band sick uh trainee wage wherever you are on that you might the increment wherever you are that's where you stay so you go still as in in your employment contract it will say that your employment will be terminated if you do not complete your doctorate course so yeah so you're doing the qualified role but you're doing it as a band six well not a band seven and you don't get the study day yeah you don't get any study leave you don't get any study time in your new role so basically what I'm saying to everybody is get your thesis done before you

qualify but what you're also saying is it's not it's doable it's not the end of the world and this does this does happen um and it might not be reasons that feel like they're within your control um but you can survive it and actually in the grand scheme of things that one year hasn't really made an impact on your career and it's likely that you would have but you would have doing the same job anyway you just got less money for it yeah yeah but the thing is is it did take a real toll on my mental health because they kept saying things like this is a declensi normal version there's no dyslexic version this is a declensi you know people like you people should my course director at the time my course director said that to me another another member of the research team said to me people like you lower

the academic superiority of our course you know when you're getting those comments said to you at the same time and you can't on behalf of on behalf of clinical psychology dr deb. Deborah Kingston, I'd like to apologize to you because that's not OK. You know, that's not all right. But that's the thing. People hear these comments, they hear things. And what they do is they'll internalize them based on their own history. Sometimes there's no need, Dr. Marianne Trent, for you to apologize for clinical psychologists because you're not narrow minded, small, bigoted and discriminatory. So, you know, don't apologise for people who choose to have that behaviour. Yeah, I know. But I'm just I'm sorry for humans what they've done.

But I'm aware of the time I could talk to you for weeks um but something I ask um everybody is for any advice they've got for reducing burnout um along the journey for aspiring psychologists what top tips would you give I would definitely say embrace yourself with people around you that love you because it's number one factor I would get some support on your journey so like I think you do a lot of literature and a lot of things I think I don't think we've had as much out for aspiring psychologists as we've currently got now and I think it's tapping into those resources because I genuinely at times felt quite alone and if you can connect with like-minded people in some form of collective experience I think it's invaluable because I think

it'll keep you right your hobbies I think it's so important to keep an essence of you even though at times you might not feel like you've got any time for them you can imagine doing them just for a couple of minutes and it will really help because that sense of imagination your body knows where that like knitting or crocheting or art or dance or drama your body knows where that feels good for it it's got a good memory of that so even for five minutes and then the most chaotic of days when we're trying to juggle 15 plates stop for a moment imagine you're doing the thing that you love the most and just really sense it in your body and then you'll feel like you've just got a pep of energy to then keep going which should in theory stop some burnout oh you're worth your

weight in gold deborah um amazing advice and you know i hope that our audience are just eating us up with a spoon it's lovely um where can people connect with you or learn more about you um if they should want to well I'm on LinkedIn I'm not we listen I put the odd post out here and there but I do I always respond to private messages you know I've never let anybody down with that because I think it's important to pay back you know but I'm not the best at giving advice like on forms I'm dyslexic people it's not my strength um however what I would say is really analyze that you know the application form for the doctorate of the clearinghouse really look at the scope of everything that you really need to do and then ask yourself do I have that experience and if I don't have that experience where can I

go get it because I think it's important so many people apply for a doctorate course before they're actually ready to apply so the year I shredded my application form it actually felt like a cathartic experience because it would have just felt like for me like a huge failure but I could see from the form there was gaps so I think it's just being objective as well through this whole process and if you have applied for the doctor course I knew a girl that applied for it four times on the bounce got on the reserve list and on the fifth time of asking didn't even get an interview but then on the sixth time got on the course it's interesting because actually I think this amount of time to get on means that when you get on I think you're ready for training but there are some courses I know

we're running over time but there are some courses who now don't even look at the form so long as you meet essential criteria you can then do an assessment test and if you come first on the assessment test for example not first but the first however many you then get invited to interview so the form's not even really being used so in theory you could potentially get on very soon after your undergrad but I needed all those extra years even the time I spent sitting in a hammock in Thailand for a few months you know I needed that time to help me later in my career and I was the same I did my honorary where I really learned about behaviorism I learned about wards I learned about nursing teams the dynamics of teams then I went to the chronic

fatigue service and I learned about occupational therapists and support workers and the vital role they play and the team element and group work and then I went to forensics and I really cut my teeth and I had an amazing supervisor I'm going to give her a shout out because without her, I wouldn't be here, which is Dr. Kerry Beckley. She was phenomenal. And she was the one that mentored me. I'm getting on to the course and then beyond that three years of my doctorate. So, you know, it's about without that levels of experience, joining it up together, I would never have got on. And I wouldn't be the clinical psychologist I am today doing my trauma informed stuff because I've gone more specialism to be trauma informed. I can't I don't treat everybody. I don't have a list as long as you are.

I do all these conditions. I'm a specialist in all this because I'm not. I'm just trauma. And that's me. Very lucky they would be to see you. Deborah, it's been such a pleasure having you here. I might well invite you back in future because there's lots and lots I could talk to you about. But thank you so much for your time. It's been a joy. You're welcome.

Oh, thank you for listening or watching. If you're on YouTube, I just could have spoken to Dr. Deborah all day. If you don't currently have someone that feels like they're on your tribe, they're your community, as we discussed with Deborah, then why not let me be considered for that role for you? Why not let me welcome you into the Aspiring Psychologist membership. We are doing great things in there and people are finding it to be really supportive in, you know, compassionately encouraging their development, but also helping to develop their skills too. Got loads in there. So you can find out more information about that by clicking the link in the show notes

or my bio in any of my social media platforms will take you right there too and of course the clinical psychologist collective is also a great place to start if you're looking to broaden your narratives of people heading towards qualified roots in psychology thank you very much for being part of my world and don't forget the next episode of the aspiring psychologist podcast will be dropping into your ears um at 6 a.m on monday take care of you be kind if you're looking to become a psychologist then let this be your guide with this podcast at your side you to be on your way to being qualified

It's the Aspiring Psychologist Podcast With Dr. Marianne Trent My name's Yana and I'm a trainee psychological well-being practitioner. I read the Clinical Psychologist Collective book. I found it really interesting about all the different stories and how people got to become a clinical psychologist. It just amazed me how many different routes there are to get there and there's no perfect way to become one and this kind of filled me with confidence that no I'm not doing it wrong and put less pressure on myself. So if you're feeling a bit uneasy about becoming a clinical psychologist I I'd definitely recommend

this just to put yourself at ease and everything will be okay. But trust me, you will not put the book down once you start.