The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast - Should you go into private practice as a psychologist? with Thomas Gourley Trainee Clinical Psychologist - DClinpsy

Episode Date: September 25, 2023

Show Notes for The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast Episode 95: Should you go into private practice? with Thomas Gourley - Trainee Clinical Psychologist Thank you for listening to the Aspiring Psychologist Podcast. One thing I find myself often doing is reflecting on my own journey in becoming a psychologist, the struggles, the wins, the changes we adapt to, the different roles we play post-qualification. In this episode, I take a turn in the hot seat with Thomas Gourley, and speak about my path, as I navigated my way from a final year trainee, qualified NHS psychologist to finally private practice. We discuss different types of working, misconceptions, pros and cons of what private and NHS practices offer, as well as balancing everything else outside as a psychologist. Join us as we explore my own journey from a 3rd year about-to-graduate trainee to where I am now in this slightly longer, but jam-packed episode. We hope you find it so useful.Like, Comment, Subscribe & get involved:If you enjoy the podcast, please do subscribe and rate and review episodes. If you'd like to learn how to record and submit your own audio testimonial to be included in future showshead to: https://www.goodthinkingpsychology.co.uk/podcast and click the blue request info button at the top of the page.  Links:💼 To Check out my considering leaving employment masterclass: https://gtps.kartra.com/page/allin-registration🫶 To support me by donating to help cover my costs for the free resources I provide click here: https://the-aspiring-psychologist.captivate.fm/support📚 To check out The Clinical Psychologist Collective Book: https://amzn.to/3jOplx0 📖 To check out The Aspiring Psychologist Collective Book: https://amzn.to/3CP2N97 💡 To check out or join the aspiring psychologist membership for just £30 per month head to: https://www.goodthinkingpsychology.co.uk/membership-interested✍️ Get your Supervision Shaping Tool now: https://www.goodthinkingpsychology.co.uk/supervision📱Connect socially with Marianne and check out ways to work with her, including the Aspiring Psychologist Book, Clinical Psychologist book and The Aspiring Psychologist Membership on her Link tree: https://linktr.ee/drmariannetrent💬 To join my free Facebook group and discuss your thoughts on this episode and more: https://www.facebook.com/groups/aspiringpsychologistcommunityLike, Comment, Subscribe & get involved:If you enjoy the podcast, please do subscribe and rate and review episodes. If you'd like to learn how to record and submit your own audio testimonial to be included in future shows head to: https://www.goodthinkingpsychology.co.uk/podcast and click the blue request info button at the top of the page....

Hi there, it's Marianne here. Before we dive into today's episode, I want to quickly let you know about something exciting that's happening right now. If you've ever wondered how to create income that works for you, rather than constantly trading your time for money, then you'll love the Race to Recurring Revenue Challenge with my business mentor, Lisa Johnson. This challenge is designed to help you build sustainable income streams. And whether you're an aspiring psychologist, a mental health professional, or in a completely different field,

the principles can work for you. There are also wonderful prizes to be won directly by Lisa herself. And if you join the challenge by my link, you can be in with a chance of winning a one-to-one hours coaching with me, Dr. Marianne Trent. Do you want to know more? Of course you do. Head to my link tree, Dr. Marianne Trent, or check out my social media channels, or send me a quick DM and I'll get you all the details. Right, let's get on with today's episode. Coming up on today's episode of the Aspiring Psychologist podcast, I talk to Dr.

Marianne Trent about her journey from the NHS into her own private practice. We drop into Marianne starting third year of her doctorate and we go through the journey into qualification through some years working in the NHS service as a qualified and then blended and eventually full-time into private practice. Talk a little bit about standardised ways of working, the skills and knowledge and also how it feels and what kind of person maybe would succeed in private practice. We cover a little bit of the pros and cons including what both private and NHS can potentially uniquely offer for clients. And we also finish with some kind of big old reflections on the future.

Word of warning, this episode is a little bit longer than usual, clocking in about an hour and 20 minutes. But obviously you can duck in and out of that at your leisure. So thank you for listening. I hope you enjoy it and see you soon. You'll be on your way to being qualified. It's the Aspiring Psychologist Podcast. With Dr. Marianne Trent. Hello, and welcome to the Aspiring Psychologist Podcast with Dr. Marianne Trent. But wait, I know what you're thinking. This isn't Dr. Marianne Trent. But wait, I know what you're thinking. This isn't Dr. Marianne Trent. Who is this guy? Why is he here? And what's going on? Dear listener, worry not. Allow me to explain. My name is Thomas Gawley. And aside from lots

of other things in my life, I'm also a trainee clinical psychologist. A few weeks ago, I was a guest on the podcast. and Marianne and I talked afterwards about topics for future episodes. I said I'd be really interested to hear an episode about working privately and Marianne's journey from the NHS into her own practice. Marianne agreed that this would make an interesting topic, but what might not be too interesting for listeners would be, in Marianne's own words, to listen to her waffle on to herself about her own career. Instead, she suggested that it would be far better to be interviewed herself. And so the pyramid has been inverted and the former podcast guest becomes the current podcast host. That's me. So that's what we're going to do today. And I'm going to ask Marianne lots of questions about her journey out of the DeClin into her

qualified career and then her journey into private practice. And we're going to make some kind of general comparisons and maybe a few specific comparisons about those two different career paths. But first, it's DeClin application season, of course, so we're all ready to go. One thing that we need to remind you of is that the Clearinghouse will contact your referees as soon as you save them on your application form. That means that they will be contacted before you even finish your application and submit it. So quick note, make sure that you get consent from your referees before you add them and save them on the form,

because Clearinghouse will take that as consent and that they're OK to contact them. So consent first and they will get contacted before you've submitted your form. So without further ado, welcome to the Aspiring Psychologist podcast, not with Dr. Marianne Trent, but me, Thomas Gawley. And today's guest is none other than Dr. Marianne Trent. Hello, Marianne. How are you? Hi, I loved that. That's so fun. Thank you. Very, very pleased to be here. And I feel like I'm in very capable hands, thanks. Good, so I'm going to drop straight into it and I'm going to take you back to the start of your third year is probably also the start of the end of the training, and therefore maybe a time where trainees naturally start to think about what's going to happen post-qualification

and what kind of routes they want to take, maybe what services, maybe they're thinking about what placements they might want to do in third year and how that might lead into post qualification or not um so I guess to start um take us back to the start of third year what what were you doing and what were you thinking about post quality okay great question so um in the course or on the course should I say that the that I did um the third year is broken up into two placements two specialist placements that you really start to to pave the way for probably in year one really um and my first specialist placement was um in a wonderful wonderful service that's since been

disbanded actually unfortunately um but it was a systemic and family therapy service offering some solution focus, but also, yeah, like there was proper sort of family therapy rooms in there. I don't know if you or anyone else has seen them, but they've got one way mirrors and, you know, phones that you can talk through and things like that. So it was in there. But then I also did some had some clients for, yeah, brief solution focus, where you'd actually only offer appointments every four weeks, I think it was. So you're really setting kind of achievable, realistic targets and goals between sessions. But it was also a self referral services, like they were doing all of the really great stuff. And and also once a week on a Wednesday lunchtime they'd do a drop-in for any difficulties you were having um I think it wasn't just linked to children but often it would be children um or parents that were brought in I think it I can't quite remember I think it might have been a specific family support drop-in so literally you could come half an hour

before give your name to reception and then you know be seen for 20 minutes with a qualified psychologist to think through your difficulties and come up with a plan and then as a result of that the clinician who'd seen would then write an assessment report and send on any referrals that were needed so you didn't hold that as a caseload. And if they wanted to be seen again, they could. But actually, people didn't tend to. It was such a wonderful, wonderful way of working. And I learned so much.

And, you know, not even knowing anything, other than someone's name before you see them, I really learned how to think on my feet and how to think about our core skills as psychologists and you know building rapport and trying to also probably interject when things are getting too content heavy to think actually we've only got 20 minutes if if by any chance they were the only people that turned up or there were other clinicians, there was always other clinicians. But if it was a quiet time, then potentially you could go up to

an hour. But really, the idea was that in that hour you were seeing three clients and it was wonderful. So that was my placement there. And that was supervised by a clinical psychologist. It was a very big team, actually. And I think even trainee-wise, there was a trainee room up in the attic, and it was, I think there was, at different times of the week, there was probably four or five of us. So it was very busy, but I learned a lot. And then placement six was a dynamic placement, psychodynamic,

brief dynamic interventions, which was something I was very interested about in my first year um but actually as I develop my confidence um and just you just create new interests and new ways of being because I see placements as a way of trying on different stuff that fits and actually by the time placement six came I was much less interested in dynamic and probably you know I learned loads it was a great placement everyone was really lovely to me so I don't want to talk down that placement but certainly because of how long it takes to get into placement six my my interest for that were were less strong at

that time and I haven't worked dynamically since but I guess what I love about our work is that the theory is all up there still and sometimes with our integrative way of working sometimes it will just fit and I can kind of weave in some more um you know some more dynamic ways of working but of course alongside all of this um you have a personal life as well don't you and you've got cohort stuff and you've got a thesis so there was a study block in between placement five and six um where all sorts of things happen for context it's when um william and kate got married that's that sort of time it's that long ago um And that was the end of my that was the end of my study block, I seem to recall, because the rest of the world was watching the the wedding and I was beaver and happy I'd been living in my new house which is not this one for um for a year and I'd been with my boyfriend um who is now my

husband we had met um in the first two weeks of um my year two study block I think so that's kind of yeah I started the course single and then went went on the coupledom journey from year two but um yeah there's a very long answer to your question does that kind of does that answer it does that illuminate some of what was going on for me um yeah yeah it gives us gives us a good idea of where you're at. I'm wondering, of course, both those placements, I'm assuming, were in the NHS, as they tend to be, although I'm aware that it is possible to arrange third year placements on some courses privately. So getting towards the end of your time on the doctorate, what were you thinking about qualification? Did you have a job secured before you'd finished?

As I'm aware, most trainees I've met have that lined up. Was that in the NHS? And either way, what was it doing? Okay, so to set the context, we're talking about 2011 when I qualified. And due to some kind of financial shenanigans involving various banks and mortgage companies, including Northern Rock, which no longer exists, there was a recession, which was in full swing at that time. It didn't feel as bleak as the 2023 landscape, actually, because we hadn't also had a global pandemic. But at that time, actually, there seemed to be cuts across services, and there were very, very few jobs available. So of my cohort of what started as 15 but finished as 16 due to kind of maternity leave shifts from the year above um only i think two people had qualified jobs to go to when the course ended in september 2011 um it started to creep up um yeah yeah it started to creep up I guess that's unrecognizable that

situation to trainees now where you might be the only person interviewing for the job you might be the only person applying for the job um so yeah that's that's a big change um yeah and to be honest it was finding the jobs to apply to was the problem there just weren't any um you know quite often trainees might even get jobs in their final year you know sometimes services will wait you know almost a year for the right candidate but it was just like you know to begin with it was like hmm there's not really there's not really many jobs around is there um wonder where they're all hiding um oh I have got bills to pay like hmm um but actually as it went um what happened is that basically probably all of that cohort across

the country began to widen their search so I ended up in a role that was further away than any of my placements had been even though the way placements are allocated you know I never got a placement that was like right near where I lived I think my shortest commute was 15 minutes so my longest during training was probably 50 minutes but my qualified commute ended up being over an hour um so all of us probably yeah as a as a as a just as a whole graduate cohort across the country probably widened our search for where we were willing to consider um and really because of the the flavor of the work i'd done i didn't really have any strong preference to a clinical population at that point um but i'd only worked the majority of my work, including training, had been with adults.

And so nobody was more surprised than me when I got a CAMHS job in basically the heart of Birmingham, but also Sutton Coalfield. And when I was told I was in Sutton Coalfield, I was like, I've heard of Sutton Caulfield, but I don't know where it is. So nobody was more surprised than that than me. But actually, I loved it and I made a great CAMHS clinician. And what I really, really loved about CAMHS was just how energetic and joy filled the team were and how passionate about young people and they were just really vibrant people which might sound really strange but um when I was an aspiring psychologist and certainly when I was training it used to be said that if you go to and this is a complete over generalization please don't be triggered by this anybody, but this is kind of some of the, just some of the in-house conversations. If you

go to a substance abuse conference as a professional, the bar will be rammed, you know, and similarly, if you're working in an adult service, the clinicians might well have some of their own struggles whereas working in CAMHS everyone was just yeah at that point just vibrant and you know really positive and optimistic in a way that was so refreshing especially as that was my first qualified job and it felt it just felt really weird it felt really weird I think I've mentioned in the podcast before that I was expecting and sort of kind of hoping for kid gloves that I'd have like a a period of transitioning to this new qualified role but my manager who I am now good friends with um she was basically like we've been waiting for you

and you're qualified away you go and I think that was empowering so they were thinking of me as qualified I mean in terms of um I don't know if Kappa still exists but a choice and partnership approach that's how the service worked and it worked beautifully and it won awards for patient safety it was a great service um but in terms of how it works with kappa is that you don't suddenly get like 15 cases given to you it builds week by week so that did allow me to have more time to think to plan to you know make sure my notice board next to my desk looked nice all those things but it meant that I wasn't suddenly swamped with activities. So I did get to grow into that role. Whereas I think still some services might have been tempted to,

you know, you're new, have this, and then juggle your new client that comes in three weeks out of four. But that didn't happen. So I was thankful for that. But I was just a qualified member of staff and expected to to roll with it yeah I'm obviously being at the stage in my career I'm out I'm kind of focused on the transition uh onto the doctorate but yeah I'm also aware that there's there's been another another big transition and i know a former supervisor of mine uh talked about uh about that transition in supervision and and kind of

described it as being you know where where before you're qualified you you don't have ultimate clinical responsibility because you have a supervisor who is responsible for you ultimately, you know. And he said, you know, in kind of getting registered after he'd qualified, he'd gone from Friday having no ultimate clinical responsibility to Monday, suddenly it's all on him. And, you know, he's got assistant as well. So, yeah, I can imagine that's a difficult transition to make. But you've made that transition and you've gone into your qualified role. So I'm wondering how long were you at that CAMHS service for? And I suppose, where did the journey into your own practice begin, both in your mind or your ambition? Was it something that you were planning to do or was it something that just kind of emerged?

Yeah, how did that come about? OK, so I was there almost four years, but that did include one little maternity leave and a wedding and all the hen shenanigans that went with that um so yeah I wasn't planning on doing private work so before I um before I got my qualified job, I did do some brief project work for organizations, which was basically sort of using my research skills and trying to kind of put together a report for an organization, which I did really enjoy. But to be honest, the idea for private work wasn't my own it was um it was offered to me as an idea by my husband um so um I'd had a second um lot of maternity leave when I was working in an adult service so I left that cam service to come to a an adult service it was closer to home um and again really really valued my time there and I learned so much and that's when I became a trauma specialist is what I would say um and I miss my

colleagues I do I do I do um so and I miss my colleagues in CAMHS as well, you know, but you can keep them as friends once you leave is what I'd say. So my youngest was starting preschool at the school and I was only by that stage working three days a week. So after my first maternity leave, I went back to the CAMHS service four days a week. And then when I went back from my maternity leave for the adult service, I decided I only wanted to be three because as anybody who works four days will tell you, you're basically doing five days work in four for less pay. So I wanted to absolutely be part time. And so, yeah, it is a bit of a shock when your wages go down um but you have to kind of cut cut your cloth accordingly is what um is what my my parents

would have told me um so I had those two days with um with my um well being a parent and doing all of the school run bits and pieces for the eldest but then when the youngest was going to be starting preschool my husband was like well what are you going to do with those three hours a week um on a Wednesday and a Thursday and I was like did I maybe have a nap maybe have a facial tidied the house and he was like you could start some private work. And I was like, oh, I could. But I didn't feel like a proper enough psychologist, I don't think. It felt like I needed to be some, I don't know, something different. Well, I didn't feel like I was it. But I was, oh, well, yeah, maybe some more money would be nice.

You know, I don't know. So I was part of a psychologist network for private professionals, and I'd been part of it probably for a year. So I knew it was possible. And one of my good friends, Cara, I know she won't mind me mentioning her, she was already working in private and had done for quite some time. And she was like, you'd be fabulous at it just you know do it do it so um to cut a very long story short um I found myself two clinics one that had space on a Wednesday one that had space on a Thursday that were traveling distance from my children's school so that I could drop them off for 8.45 and then hot foot it by car to the clinic and then see

two clients and then hot foot it back to the school to pick up my youngest just in time so that was quite an action-packed three hours it really was but then the pandemic happened um so I'd started that in September 2019 and then by the time March came around obviously it all shifted online and then I didn't have the school run to worry about so I increased it to three kinds because there was increased demand because of the pandemic and then randomly ended up setting up an evening clinic one evening a week so before I knew it I was then doing eight sessions a week and I was so terrified of not getting the tax right that I saved every single penny um other than um my costs and my overheads um for you know software and you know ICO um all of the uh insurance well all of that jazz um because I didn't want to then suddenly not have enough money so it got to a position where I was like oh I'm gonna be a higher

rate taxpayer before too long I am working working myself to the bone for actually no benefits. And so it just made me think, well, could I shift the balance slightly? Could I maybe do two days in the NHS and then have three days in private practice? And, you know, the pandemic kind of was resolving itself. The kids are back at school. And by the time I actually went all in self-employed, it was April 2021 because my request to drop down had been declined. And it was interesting that sometimes when we might get what we want, we might realize it's not what we want um and it was actually as I was doing my appeal for that that I suddenly realized if they say yes I think I might be a bit disappointed I might be a bit sad um and I think that that speaks volumes doesn't it because if you then get what you want and you still don't want it maybe that's not what you know that's not the course of action you should be taking so I did then make the decision

to go all in which is you know not an easy decision someone on my cohort had always planned to be a trainee and then set up their own practice and that is what they did um right from the beginning and to watch that going on as someone that was newly qualified it was like oh gosh that feels like oh wild you know they had a website and everything um so to to kind of go through that process myself but but no I already could pay my bills if needed. You know, I got my accountant to help me calculate what I needed as a bare minimum to kind of make my ends meet and still pay my tax and my national insurance and all of that jazz. And to actually take out any passive assets at that time. So by that time, I did have the tricky brain kit and the grief

collective book and a couple of different bits and pieces but if we took that out but it's not as predictable as regular one-to-one client work so we took that off the table and kind of helped me have a figure for how many clients I needed to see a week so that's where I started um but it still feels like a big deal um and I would say that I never felt alone so people are like won't you be lonely but actually my accountant is so lovely she feels like part of my team um and I've got a virtual assistant Hannah who helps me do bits and pieces for socials and keeps me on track and thinking I haven't got any content planned I haven't got any content plan what are you going to do um and so at that time we were running regular five-day challenges for people with complex trauma and so um yeah I think Hannah and I were doing more work together at that time because there's lots involved in running a

challenge um so I never felt by myself I've never felt lonely. And of course, when you're seeing clients, you are connecting with people. And I have done some networking here and there and I'm part of various groups. But, you know, I still talk to Cara most days and other kind of psychologist friends as well. So, yeah, that's a very long answer to your question again. But that's that's what happened. I'm just gonna gonna take that um the kind of you don't feel lonely but um you also mentioned during the camp that you really missed the people you worked with in in the services as well um and i know from my from

my own experience i i feel like part of my um continuous development has happened in kind of what are kind of informal micro-supervisions, just these passing conversations or in my role as an AP, I was really fortunate that we always had two trainees in the team and we we had a had our own room and they would they would come in from a session and they'd be you know quite often they'd be everyone would turn their chairs around and they'd be like a little kind of debrief and sort of sharing ideas we also did a balance group as well every month with the whole team which would be six of us um so for anyone who doesn't know what a balance group is it's a basic a case discussion that's unprepared so one person presents a case generally something that they're really stuck with and that can be either with a client or working with another team or working with a system but something where they're stuck

and the progress of the work is it's kind of become difficult um they present that for 10 minutes i've not heard of that before is it b balance b a l i n t i think it's named after a psychologist so it comes from the around the mid-century i think it was a group of psychologists who created this group in order to kind of have supervision and share ideas and develop their thinking. It's really, yeah, it's a really good learning session. I always felt, I think generally I felt kind of perceptibly developed as a clinician after each one of those sessions um but in terms of just those informal little chats that that kind of go on there's a kind of drip um drip drip effect of development through those so i'm wondering you know when you're saying you missed the services do you how do you how do you compensate by what by working as a kind of lone private clinician how do you compensate for that

yeah good question i'm very perceptive you should notice what i'd said and then being a bit of a disparity there so um it's very tricky because in my CAMHS service, I had my own office. And if you're busy, you can shut the door, which is quite clear communication, isn't it? Whereas in my adult service, I didn't even have my own chair. So it was agile working, but in an environment where there wasn't even really room for all the clinicians that were there. But at that point, they weren't that hot on you working from home until the pandemic happened. And then obviously everything became deathly quiet. But I have always, in my qualified capacity

and in my assistant and aspiring capacity, been a real grafter. I will I will you know I will take on cases I will fill my caseload we used to work with a job plan model as part of CAPA and that's something that's followed me through my career and I still have now so I was recruited to the 8a post in adults to do 50% face-to-face clinical time and when i started i was sort of told by another clinician oh it's not possible because you can't get the rooms um you know you just can't see people i've only seen probably one or two people this year um because you can't get the rooms because the rooms were given out to people all across the trust, not just to the people that worked in the building, which again, I think needed reworking. So I was like, well, I've been employed to do face-to-face time. I'm going to do it.

So I went all over the city getting rooms. So I wasn't always there, you know. So when I saw people, it was a really nice connection time. And actually, in my first year of working there, I only was at base on a Tuesday afternoon. That's the only time that I had to connect with people so I was used to lots of my time with my colleagues being via whatsapp or text message or emails so actually working now in isolation it doesn't feel hugely different does that make sense so it it did when I went back from my second maternity leave, I have only got two kids, it did. I was careful to give myself more time with my colleagues. And I've always really loved working with aspiring psychologists. So I loved spending time with trainees. I loved spending times with assistants and I've been able to obviously weave that into my current working model so that I'm still getting that aspect of something that I really enjoyed and that I was good at as well and of course I've still got supervisors so I've got a supervisor

for my EMDR work and I've got a supervisor for my generic practice not specifically linked to EMDR and there's a mixture of ages there as well so my generic supervisor is an um an advanced a man in the advancing age and I really love his just his view on things and that we do have different personal experiences and professional experiences and what he brings to that but um yeah so you know I am still in contact with people and because I've moved more into I would now call myself a businesswoman as well as a psychologist and actually a few years ago that would have made me sick in my mouth um because it I wasn't comfortable with that with that idea because I've now moved into those networks. I'm also kind of, you know, making contacts in the business world as well.

And I'm feeling kind of, yeah, that they're my colleagues as well. So it is, you know, I do do some networking in person and I do do some networking events. And I'm just freshly back from Galway doing a keynote speech in person. But for me, I like my own company. I think I'm quite good company. I have excellent choice in activities that I always like to do. And I always say yes to. I am good company and I I'm all right with silence um and

yeah I like radio too as company so it might sound like a really washy wishy-washy answer and solo private practice working remotely will not work for everybody but for me it works really well and it helps me to be more available for my children so that they've got mummy um picking them up and dropping them off you know nine times a week so we're meeting quite early on a friday because this is the day the day i don't do it um but it just it just suits my work-life balance and it suits me and it suits my clients and it works for me, but it might not work for everybody. That's really interesting. I mean, you say wishy-washy, but you've actually made me, I was starting to think about the triangle of supervision. So for anybody who's not aware of this, it's a kind of a model for supervision on which to structure your thinking

around supervision and also supervision sessions and on that triangle we have normative formative and restorative and these are the three aspects that you might want to think about covering overall during your supervision normative obviously being about standardized ways of working shared shared ways of working shared shared ways of working formative being kind of skills and knowledge and then restorative being more about you as a person and how things have felt either within the case or just just generally and I think in that answer actually you managed to kind of go around all all three of those uh points

you know you talked about supervision and cpd but also some new skills so like business skills and keynote speaking and also like the type of person um that you are so you're you're happy being by yourself but you're also happy with the company but also yeah that it that it works for you kind of on a on a personal level um so i'm just gonna let's do another quick lap of that triangle as well um so in terms of the normative things so the standardized ways of working as a private clinician compared to working in the nhs um what what things what things do you need that are kind of standardised? So things like insurance, do you need business insurance? Do you need insurance to cover you in case something goes wrong

with a client that you are responsible for? Are there, yeah, in terms of i know that you you work online but what kind of like clinic space do you need how how do you get that how much does it cost you know um all of those kind of things do you share one with other private clinicians so um yeah do you want to just do you just want to do a quick lap of the normative section of that plan sure absolutely so um it's probably also worth saying that on the morning of my first ever private clinic i was standing in my kitchen crying because i just didn't feel enough i just didn't i was i would say i was more nervous than my first day working qualified,

more nervous. I don't remember being nervous when I was starting training because I didn't have time. I'd just got back from India as well. More nervous than my first assistant job. I think it's more nervous, probably as nervous as I was on my Viva day, really. Like it was, I just felt awful.

And the idea of asking someone for money for what I did that felt like common sense, I think that's the thing. We get so schooled into what we're doing that the idea of actually being paid more than £22 an hour or whatever it was that we're on at the time, it felt like I was robbing a bank. It felt like I was doing something really, really naughty. But actually, and I felt like I needed to be able to give extra do more to earn that money because I was so institutionalized by being an employee um I would say that certainly initially the work was easier um than than the NHS work I'd been doing

um and very quickly I was like oh I guess, it's fine. It's all right. So, yeah, you do need to register with the Information Commissioner's Office, the ICO. I mentioned those earlier, but I didn't give you the full details about what ICO was. And you need to have processes set up for kind of your GDPR, how you're going to keep notes, all of that jazz. Mine's all electronic. And you need to have indemnity insurance. Sorry, does that mean that you... So in the NHS, we are ardent note takers and we can be audited.

And in fact, patients can access their own records and their progress notes. It's information that is kind of right rightfully theirs and so I'm assuming that means that that's that's the same working privately but there's a different slightly different process in which you have to hold that data but also make it auditable is it auditable by the hcpc so yes the hcpc at any time could contact you and tell you that you've been selected for audit um the the clinical platform i use makes it all quite easy to kind of to download and share notes if if and when required and of course so clients still like they can in the nhs request access to their notes. But largely speaking, they don't tend to unless it's some legal funded work or something. But yeah, it's still absolutely the process.

And you do need to have indemnity insurance. But actually, I would suggest to anyone listening to this, perhaps even when working at trainee level, perhaps even before that, to consider insurance anyway. It's not a fortune. It's probably £150 a year for a level that's reasonable cover. Because I would say that the NHS will cover you, you know, in an unlimited capacity, I believe, but only if you followed the right procedures and processes. So if it's found that you haven't you're going to be liable um which i don't think they always you know they don't always tell you so if you had your own you're about to be a little bit sick thomas if you have your own cover then you're covered regardless and it just feels like a little bit of immunity um so yeah i would

say for anyone listening to this if you're working um in a clinical setting to consider getting your own um your own indemnity insurance and there's a variety of providers i use oxygen there's towergate there's there's a few others as well but i think they're all standardized pricing, you know, a bit of a price fix situation. But just something to make you feel a little bit more confident, because with the best one in the world, sometimes you may not do clinical notes within 48 hours or whatever it is that your trust wants, which then would not be you following procedures. So it might be potentially something as small as that that might lead you to standing on a stand in you

know speaking to your honor um and all of us have been there all of us have been there where we haven't met the targets we haven't perhaps done what we should have done you know if you've maybe let your you know what's it called that training that you have to do mandatory training um if you let a bit of that lapse then technically you're not you're not compliant with trust regulations and requirements so yeah um i would look at some sort of indemnity cover um wherever you are um initially i was doing all of my private work in the clinic settings and the prices for that will absolutely vary depending on which part of the country you're in I was paying 25 pounds for um for the two hours that

I needed so technically I could have wanged in an extra client if I'd had the space um if I'd had the time and no time limits because they tend to do it in half days so people don't often want you to do ad hoc hours here and there they will they will want to look for for something a bit bigger and more consistent but um you know that said even on harley street i've seen that you can get therapy rooms for as little as like 12 13 pounds an hour so please don't be daunted by anyone that you see talking about themselves as a harley street therapist because it's not, it doesn't mean what you think it might mean, you know. So yeah, there's quite a few steps and stages to overcome initially. But actually, it's just that all of those steps and stages have been

done for you if you've been employed before. And now you're responsible for it yourself. But yes, it's not it doesn't need to be as daunting as you think it might be and connecting with other professionals who've been through that can be really useful too might be worth saying I've also got a webinar a masterclass on considering going all in self-employed so if anyone's interested in checking that out they can check out the details in the show notes how about so so that's the kind of the the kind of normative way and i i'm i suppose within that actually that there seem to be some some new skills as well that are unique therefore to working privately like you know organizing these things a lot of kind of admin but also

learning about you know the limits of potential limits of indemnity insurance when it comes to working for a big organisation, which I, for one, didn't know. So thanks for that pro tip. I'm going to look into that. That's not to say that I don't always work within protocol. I try to, but sometimes, yeah, maybe I'm not even aware in the moment whether I am or whether I'm not. For example, if you suddenly went home sick and you just weren't well enough, you might easily forget to do your clinical notes or, you know, not do them for a week or so, you know. And that's just part of being human. But technically, you know, it might be that if something happened to that client and the team weren't aware that that we've fallen foul of the trust procedures there and they might be like well

you know we told you to do your clinical notes within 48 hours it's a small example but but one to be aware of I think for sure yeah um you touched briefly on working privately as it working for you on a personal level, but without wanting to ask about your personal life. what kind of person do you think would succeed in private practice or in blenders, maybe part-time NHS, part-time practice, or even full-time private? Is there a type of person who is maybe more geared towards succeeding in that setting? I would say no absolutely and you know it might be the question might be are you more driven by money than any other clinician that might be part of the question you know um and I guess when we look at our own stories um and our own relationship with money there can be money trauma you know so um growing up at different times there's been

money in my family and no money in my family you know there's been times where my parents were having to shop in netto um and only buy tesco value food that's kind of the era that i was growing that i grew up in um where you had to go to school with you know blue and white striped crisps you know which was like the worst thing imaginable. Um, so it was like, Oh, value, value. Um, you know, and I guess the worst thing is no crisps at all, isn't it? Cause then you can't afford crisps at all. But, um, yeah, there's been times when there's been more money and less money, but my mum's always, her mantra has always been look after the pennies and the pounds look after themselves and if we were ever going out for lunch if I didn't choose egg sandwich I'd be like like I was made

out to be a millionaire because egg is traditionally the cheapest in any sandwich in any shop because it's so cheap so yeah I was always taught to be quite frugal and that earning money is, is good. Um, so yeah, I do like earning money. I've always earned money. So even when I was 13, I was working selling magazines that were called Candice. I think they are still around. I wrote for it recently. Um, and then I, my brother broke his leg and I ended up doing his paper round. Um, and then, um, I ended up working, washing up in a hotel and then I worked for Boots. And so I was always used to working and enjoying that and feeling like I got a sense of satisfaction and had her own money as well so you know that is just the way that for me grew up as normal that you have your own bank account you can do what you want to do you might also have a joint a joint account when you're when you're married as well but um being

able to look after myself and be independent um have my own car and so I needed to be able to earn enough to to do you know I've got a 10 year old car Thomas you know it's I'm not I'm not extravagant as a person this necklace came from a charity shop you know um I'm not extravagant but I want to be able to afford the things I want to be able to afford um and yeah you know I don't work as many hours as you might assume. So you might be like, oh, well, she's in private practice. You know, probably she sees as many clients as she did in the NHS. She's probably a high rate taxpayer.

She's probably absolutely milking it, especially with everything else she's got going on. I'm not. I'm not a higher rate taxpayer as yet. I only want to see nine clients a week, three mornings a week, because otherwise I will be depleted. You know, I won't be as good for those clients. If I was seeing 20 a week, I wouldn't have enough in the tank um so I balance myself um I go to personal training twice a week which again I know is is is quite extravagant but I pay 25 pounds a session and it does so much for me um so I'd go on a Wednesday lunchtime and a Friday morning um because that helps me build exercise into my week into my work week rather than trying to tack it on. And again, I know that's a luxury not available to everybody. But yeah, do you need to be a particular type of person, you need to be able to give yourself permission to earn money,

and to do that transaction between yourself and a client, you know, and if you're working in a in a face to face setting, there might be reception that can handle that for you. If you don't want to do that, not all clinicians want to, to handle the money or do the contracting and all of that jazz. My contracting is largely done remotely. It's done via the platform, you know, so you explain your terms and conditions, but then you send them and they're all sort of sorted out that way. But you have to give yourself permission to earn money. You know, some people do set themselves up as CIC, community interest companies, if you know, if they want to do that. But I am OK with making a profit and charging for my time.

And even, you know, with the As know with the aspiring psychologist podcast I do have these free resources I do have the free Q&A's but if people have the resources and have the will there's other ways of working with me as well which are not free they're great value I still think but I know some people are a bit like charging money for that but it takes me hours and hours and hours and hours and hours even to do podcast episodes you know even to edit them even to to schedule everything it costs me money to do all of this even the platform we're streaming on and the platform that the podcast is then hosted on you know it's not free um and the stuff with the membership again that's not free I pay all of my experts within that so

I know my you know and even people saying oh you've taken the NHS training and now you're not even working for them for some people that feels like something they don't want to do or can't can't allow themselves to do um but I feel like I've been exceptional value for the nhs and i still you know in essence do some nhs work in helping support aspiring psychologists and supporting the well-being of the country when i do different bits and pieces as well so you have to be able to give yourself permission to earn money in a way that might look different than it was if you were salaried um i've not always been this out there with with the stuff that i do um that's come with time you have to what you what you very quickly learn is that people aren't necessarily going to come flooding to you knocking

on your door wanting to ask to give you money you have to be okay with putting yourself out there and discussing the things that you have that are available for people to to spend money on and that is a transition period you know um even my mum on my social she's like oh you like talking about yourself don't you I'm a businesswoman you you have to do that, you know, and that's a comfortability curve, I would say. And that will just come with time. And if you want to funnel more money into paid for advertising with different platforms to get your, you know, your one to one clients, that's a possibility. I don't struggle for one to one clients, they're're always you know fairly consistently available at at the level that I want them um so you know so I advertise on psychology today um which keeps

things kind of trickling in but I think I don't know I don't actually ask my clients where they hear about me from I perhaps should start to um yeah I feel like all my answers to your questions are very rambling no no no not not at all um and in fact i was that that's kind of covered a lot a lot of what i was gonna ask about next in terms of the the kind of maybe the pros and cons between working privately or working for the NHS. And yeah, one of those things is the financial implications. So on the face of it, I mean, I'm sure most listeners have had a look at private psychologists' websites and seen that their fees,

and they seem to be, depending on whereabouts in the country they are, I'm going to exclude London, you know, somewhere between £80 and £150 an hour. We all know we're not getting paid that at Band 7, but of course there are cost implications as well. There's no pension either, which is renowned in the NHS. Costs like insurance, costs like clinic hire. So I suppose just very quickly, do those costs and earnings kind of balance out to make it worth worthwhile it's probably worth saying that until about four months ago even with me working what I consider in a really diverse way and really hard I was still only paying myself

what I got from the NHS for working three days a week okay so do you have moments where you think you know I could it would be nice just to rock up eight till four a service do my work and just and then just go home no not anymore I think I'd got myself to a position where I was unemployable um because I know I would say no um it got to a position where I was probably probably verging on being unemployable I was so energized for everything that I had going on and learning about um how to serve clients better and how to to do it more to do it quicker with less of the loopholes that were involved which was the things I found really frustrating about um employed life um and um you know just thinking about I know learning about funnels and things like that um for kind of how to get clients on board for,

you know, working with me and stuff. I was just, I was going private at the point where there was a platform called Clubhouse. I think it is still around, but it's not around as much. And it was launched at a time that allowed it to just go wild. So it was launched at a time just in the pandemic when everyone was home, everyone was stuck. People were just really receptive to be able to listen to this kind of live streaming of business experts, basically. And I just lapped all that up. I was really, really energized by that. So it got to the position where when I was at work I wanted to be working on my socials or doing x y and z or writing a book or you know and so it and I wasn't of course I wasn't that would be really unfair but it got to the stage where

I felt like I was having an affair you know that I would rather be somewhere else. And so that really helped to make my decision. And I just think now I'm so used to doing what I want to do when I want to do it, I would find employed life quite constraining. So we've talked a lot about working privately from the perspective of the psychologist and how the journey goes into it and the kind of various pros and cons, the various different ways of working and things that you need to consider and maybe the things you need to be and embody. But I really want to give a bit of time and a bit of space to the clients as well um and kind of ask you about your thoughts on what the private sector can uniquely offer clients what what does because i'm i'm aware that they could become a kind of us versus them in terms of NHS versus private, but they both exist for a reason.

And they do both offer perhaps unique things that the other way can't offer, or ways of working that can't be done um so yeah what do you what do you think the private sector generally for for psychology can can uniquely offer clients and why yeah yeah okay good question so i would say the primary and possibly even one of the only benefits um is there might be zero weights and i know that um we speak to each other as of yesterday when record nhs weights certainly for physical health were announced as up to two years um and that's not uncommon in mental health services as well so um you know currently usually if someone emails me they can usually be seen at least for an initial assessment, if not necessarily a regular weekly slot, but certainly fortnightly to go

weekly if they want to within a couple of weeks. And that's often just not heard of in NHS services currently, I wish it was. And that was something that I was absolutely trying to sort out so when I was um going on my second maternity leave I got the weights from the service down from two and a half years to six months because of the way I was working because of that face-to-face that I was offering 50 percent um and unfortunately by the time I got back to the service it had had gone up again. And we never quite recovered from that, perhaps because I was working three days a week rather than four. But that for me is an advantage. But in terms of the level of expertise available in the NHS and the level of passion and care and commitment, I would say that is second to none you know people in the NHS that I work with care so deeply about the clients they work with on on the whole um I think because I was doing

the majority of the assessments in the service I was most recently working at I was holding the client stories in my head they weren weren't just names, they were people. And that was difficult because having to say goodbye to people I'd never get to meet, you know, in my head, I'd assess them and they were never going to come to the top of the waiting list. Whereas often when I'd meet people, they'd be like, oh, I hope I get to work with you. And often they did because I saw lots and lots of people. So letting that service go and letting those clients go, but, you know, letting those clients go but um you know letting those really professional established clinicians out of my day-to-day radar and um yeah like the cross-professional working that you work with you know that's that's unique isn't it you know even

the informal conversations you're able to have in an employee capacity that then have a cost attached for the client if they want that outside of that but often people have got practices that have got even private practices have got multi kind of discipline approaches but I've got people that I can work with informally and kind of ad hoc here and there but in terms of the full MDT meeting and the case discussion and stuff, clients aren't necessarily going to get that. But often the type of clients we're working with don't need that anyway. And one of the other key benefits other than waiting times is session number. So sometimes I'm working with a client and I will actually say to them, if we were working in the NHS, you wouldn't meet the criteria for this service.

And it's a lower level of intervention, but they want it from a specialist rather than someone that could actually probably do some of the work in a more junior capacity. And they want to know that they've got that for as long as they need to. And if they want to, they can dip back in a month. They want to, they can check back in in six months. Do you see what I mean? So they've got more freedom. They've got that for as long as they need to and that if they want to they can dip back in a month they want to they can check back in in six months do you see what I mean so they've got more freedom they've got more control but private work is not always self-funded private work might be legal funded it might be some of my favorite clients to work with are actually those that are covered by their own occupational health cover plans and that feels a bit more like NHS type working actually so even though those contracts are less lucrative I do enjoy the work for them you know for the

type of clients that I pick up from there. Yeah that's really interesting in terms of the MDT working, that you can still access that. Yeah, given that you say not many of your clients require that, but it's useful to know, I think, because that's one of my, one of the images of my mind of being in a clinic with multiple different teams to going to working you know in a garden shed it's it does it does seem like there's suddenly you're really on your own and so it's good to know that um that can still be transferable what do you think so well just to speak to that to the point where you're working with less complex clients so what I know in NHS

services is often you're working with clients sometimes who really need to be in an inpatient setting because they're really not well they're not thriving whereas I wouldn't necessarily work with clients at that level of crisis in private practice that would feel unsafe that would feel risky for me and for the client so I think I'm working with complex but not um not actively in crisis clients if that makes sense yeah absolutely and it and it sounds also the way you're saying about the kind of the amount of sessions and yeah I'm aware in the NHS um there's generally a kind of commission to do a certain amount of sessions especially when it comes to things like cbt um and that of course is it's kind of evidence-based um uh limit on sessions that you know um i think it's within six sessions

you get your most effects and then it kind of plateaus. So I suppose in terms of commissioning and resource, if the evidence says that 12 or more sessions, you just plateau, then you shouldn't really be commissioning more than 12 sessions. But what it does do, I suppose, in the private setting is give clients the control over how much they want. Obviously, notwithstanding the fact that that is a collaborative conversation

about whether they need it as well. But it certainly seems a bit more kind of control and discussion around that, which is good. I also wonder about population groups as well, who might not access mainstream services in the NHS. Not that they can't, but that they wouldn't. One of the things that I'm particularly interested in is elite football. We don't have time to go into that, but there are many clinical presentations going on

and some clinical issues in elite football, but you wouldn't necessarily see an england footballer sat in an nhs waiting room um so i you know people who live who live and work in a world which is very structured like elite football or like the military might not find their way to an nhs mainstream service so there's perhaps potential population groups who um with whom the the private sector can can uniquely work um but one of the things that I wanted to ask about um is evidence-based practice versus innovation so um generally speaking in the private sector um one of the the arguments for its success is that it's kind of less regulated so it's more

open to be able to innovate and to try new things that are maybe not tested or proven or have a huge or decades-long evidence base and I sometimes see that with people on LinkedIn who might post about something they're doing a model that they're using, I've never heard of it, I look it up, the evidence base is slim or completely absent. And I take very seriously the model of being a scientist practitioner and so far I might change my mind, but I take that as an obligation and I think if I'm not being a scientist practitioner I'm not being a clinical psychologist but on the flip side of that is there an opportunity to try something which although hasn't been proven might have some evidence but whereas it might not be commissioned by the NHS for that reason, there's an opportunity there

in the private sector to innovate and use new models and new ideas. What do you think about that? Yeah, I think there probably is. It's not really something that I have done. I'd say I'm still a very similar clinician now than I was when I was employed but you know there are people for example someone had on the podcast recently who were doing sort of eco-therapy and stuff outside the therapy room and that's a really nice opportunity to bring something of yourself but also stuff that's that's got an emerging evidence base but I think it gives you freedom and permission to to be yourself and to niche as well. So you only have to work with the clients and the populations that you want to.

So I only work with over 17s, really over 18s, ideally. For me, working online only doesn't feel safe enough for working with children and young people. So I'm now not working with any children's or family services, which feels different because I did really love that years ago. But I now feel that I am, I do feel equally as competent in working with children and adults because of the length of time I've done both. but I would say I'm now a specialist adult clinician um and uh I kind of will see trauma complex trauma complex grief um and that's you know I will do OCD because it's usually linked with complex trauma but I wouldn't necessarily see myself as a as a specialist OCD clinician but if there's complex trauma roots then that often is something that I will do but I can say no to you know other bits and pieces that I don't think I'm

the best clinician for you know whereas when you're in a team you can't always do that yeah absolutely um I think from my from my limited time already I can see that there are particular um particular types of work that I I would prefer not to do if I if I could choose and that I'd rather put my energy into things that I guess the path of least resistance here's here's a here's a type of client a type of issue a type of way of working that just feels really good to me so um yeah that's that's um yeah it's like I could do that but it will take me a lot more and I will need to do lots of reading around that to do that. Or I could do what I'm already in my zone of genius in, as they say in business terms,

where actually things will come more freely to me and I will be more help to you as a clinician because I'm having to do less learning and scrabbling and kind of getting to where you need me to be you know when I when you're working with me in complex trauma you want me to say oh actually this is a really good example of that and I wonder if this is happening not me going all right how do we how do we work with pain again like what's that approach what's that thing oh I don't know what I'm doing there like you know I wouldn't ever say to a client I don't think I'm the best choice for you this has turned out a bit different than we expected and they might still say I still want to work with you because I like you best and it's

like well you can make that informed choice but I still I'm still regularly telling you you know this is largely pain work I'm not much good at pain work. And they're still making that choice to work with me. That's their choice, you know, but I wouldn't generally go ahead picking up pain clients because I know I'm rubbish with pain. Personally, you know, I don't necessarily mean rubbish clinically, but really difficult. And that said, if anyone's watching Painkiller on Netflix at the moment, I've just finished it yesterday with my husband. It's really, really interesting. And yeah, useful watch as an aspiring or qualified psychologist.

Thanks. I'm just aware of the time that it's maybe slightly longer chat than you usually have. So I think maybe we should think about sort of moving to the end. So I'm just going to ask you a kind of general, your general thoughts and views around the future. Maybe a general reflection, if you want to, on the future of clinical psychology in the private sector and the NHS. If you want to on the future of clinical psychology in the private sector and the nhs um if you want to get politicized about that you can um but maybe

more specifically um the future of you yourself and and it can be a long career um and yeah um just yeah tell us about what what what you what you see in the future for both of those things. Yeah, I mean, I can't ever really imagine not doing psychology. So I can't imagine retiring and not being a psychologist. And I know that's not unusual as as as a profession um because I feel like it's part of my identity you know I love being a psychologist um I love being Dr Marianne Trent actually it feels weird that I just wouldn't do that that I wouldn't and I wouldn't continue to earn money in in some capacity because the state

pension's not going to be enough and I left the NHS too early to have a really well and I'm the wrong age to have a really nice NHS pension and I have got a private pension but I probably started that too late like so I think many of us are going to need some sort of supplementary income. I don't own any properties to rent out or anything. You know, that's not something we've gone down the route of. But it's interesting because what quickly became apparent when I first qualified is that the NHS training scheme is not a guarantee of employment. And ordinarily, there's jobs available. But what we learned in 2011 is there's no guarantee of any NHS employment. It doesn't lead to, you know, a band seven or preceptorship role. There's not funding earmarked for paid, qualified work, just because you've been trained as a qualified

psychologist and so I could potentially have moved into private work at that point but really I feel what is useful about band seven's roles is that you are able to to come up to full speed of being qualified which really full speed is 8a I would say that's traditionally how they were thought about you know two years of band seven and then preceptorship to 8a and certainly in my experience that's absolutely the case I've become a better and better clinician the longer and longer I've been qualified but in terms of the future of clinical psychology it's really tricky I think some element of AI will come in and that will be sad for the profession and sad for the clients as well because connection with another human and being able to share things that you feel are deeply personal and private with someone where it feels safe and trusted to do that.

Honestly, it's just the biggest privilege. I don't know, you know, if the funded NHS route will continue in this regard for for the foreseeable you know if we think about will this still be like this in 10 years how is it possible that counseling psychologists who largely are similarly qualified and experienced to ourselves are having to self-fund you know and forensics as well like how is that okay how has that been that there's only funding for educational and, and, and clinical that's feels massively unjust. So will it be that it will be leveled across the board? Or will it be that it will become self funding, you know, you're starting to see more courses, signing up to self funding routes over the last couple of years um I don't

know um I still feel like I've got the best job in the world you know that it allows me to do clinical work it allows me to do um you know I've got tv series starting on Sunday it allows me to write for the media it in the Galway it allows me to stand on stage in Galway and talk to people who are equally passionate about mental health and the career of psychology and that is all because I did a psychology undergraduate degree you know that's what my um you know my key stakeholder benefit was to begin with that's allowed me to jump through all the hoops to get where I am to be sitting with you discussing my private career. Why would you not want to do this job? But, you know, will it always exist like this? I don't know, is the answer. Yeah, I suppose a big, yeah, those are big elements, aren't they?

The future of the NHS, which could go in one of two extreme directions, has kind of ebbed and flowed the whole time that it's existed and continues to ebb and flow. And yeah, AI is coming over the hill real quick. But yeah, I'm also interested by the AI idea as well. Wait to see what impact that has. And yeah, actually really have no idea. I guess that's probably about as much as we should talk about. We've covered your journey out of Declan into NHS, out of NHS into a kind of blended situation, then into full-time.

Covered some pros and cons normative formative restorative some big reflections as well in there so I think we've we've done just about um covered just about everything that that we could um so that's been really interesting I found it really interesting so hopefully uh everyone listening has found it really interesting as well. So thanks for tuning in and listening and thank you for having me as the kind of informal host for the day. It's been, yeah, it's been really fun. Also as a final note, we should mention that Marianne has her free compassionate Q&A that you can access information about across all of her socials, which is Dr. Marianne Trent.

And there are two sessions coming up. So the first one is Tuesday, the 3rd of October at 6 p.m. And the second one is Tuesday, the 7th of November, also at 6 p.m. So check out Marianne's socials if you are interested in joining any of those. Which I think wraps everything up for today doesn't it? So I should thank my guest Dr Marianne Trent who is also obviously the leader of this podcast um and thank you listeners for tuning in and uh yeah having a little listen to this kind of little reversal and uh and finding out uh a bit more about um marianne's journey herself at this point so thanks marianne how was it thank you so much

for your bravery in in in tackling me and suggesting this podcast. If anyone else has got any ideas for podcast episodes, please do feel free to let me know. Or if anyone wants Thomas to grill me on anything else, let me know and I'm sure we can sort that out as well. But you are about to start your journey as a trainee. In fact, by the time this comes out, you will be in your teaching block. So I hope it goes so well for you. Thank you again for your time, Thomas,

and thank you to our listeners for listening. and let this be your guide with this podcast that you'll side to be on your way to being qualified it's the aspiring psychologist with dr marianne My name's Jana and I'm a trainee psychological well-being practitioner. I read the Clinical Psychologist Collective book. I found it really interesting about all the different stories and how people got to become a clinical psychologist it just amazed me how many different routes there are to get there and there's no perfect way to become one and this kind of filled me with confidence that no I'm not doing it wrong and put less pressure on myself so if you're feeling a bit uneasy about becoming

a clinical psychologist I'd definitely recommend this just to put yourself at ease and everything will be okay but trust me you will not put the book down once you start.