The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast - Teen Dad Support: Real Help for Young Fathers

Starting point is 00:00:00 My name is Yana and I'm a trainee psychological wellbeing practitioner. I read the clinical psychologist collective book. I found it really interesting about all the different stories and how people got to become a clinical psychologist. It just amazed me how many different routes there are to get there and there's no perfect way to become one. And this kind of filled me with confidence that no I'm not doing it wrong and put less pressure on myself.

Starting point is 00:00:38 So if you're feeling a bit uneasy about becoming a clinical psychologist I'd definitely recommend this just to put yourself at ease and everything will be okay. But trust me, you will not put the book down once you start. If you're a teenage dad or you know one, you'll likely know how isolating it can feel. Too often people focus on the risks or challenges of becoming a young father, without seeing

Starting point is 00:01:09 the person, the potential, or the positive impact they can have. In this episode we're drawing on real life examples and research to explore what teenage fathers need to feel supported and understood so that they, their children and the communities around them can thrive. I hope you find this a super useful listen. Hi, welcome along to the Aspiring Psychologist podcast. I am Dr. Marianne, a qualified clinical psychologist. I'm also a parent. I know that's not an easy role to grow into, even when I did it in my thirties.

Starting point is 00:01:48 Today we're taking a really close look at an often not talked about group of people, and that is teenage fathers. We are looking at how we can understand the difficulties that they might come up against, and how we can help them and the societies and groups around them to overcome them so that everybody can benefit. Especially of course the children at the heart of these families and all families for that matter. I'm chatting today with Ali, an assistant psychologist. If you're watching on YouTube you might well notice that Ali's headphones suddenly disappear. We had a bit of a technical hitch which I think was actually my fault so I'm sorry Ali, but we have managed to get all of the content still together and I hope you'll find it really useful. If you do, please do drop a like, drop a comment. Let's really

Starting point is 00:02:35 get this feeling supportive. Let me know why you're watching and please do share this episode with anybody else that you think might find it helpful too. I will look forward to catching up with you on the other side of this. Hi, Ali. Welcome along to the podcast. Thank you so much for being here. Hi, Marianne. Yeah, it's really nice to be here. Thank you for having me. Well, thank you for getting in contact with me and pitching this episode because it's most definitely something we haven't covered in the podcast before, nor is it something that I've never really necessarily thought about, but it's very, very important topic.

Starting point is 00:03:12 Could you tell us a little bit about yourself and about the project you're working in at the moment, please, Ellie? Yeah, of course. So I'm an assistant psychologist, and I work within a team called the Family Nurse Partnership. Essentially that team works predominantly with young mums, so under the age of 19,

Starting point is 00:03:33 and it's basically an enhanced health visiting service. So when mums under the age of 19 go to their first scan, they're offered the opportunity to engage with the family nurse partnership and they can sign up, it's completely voluntary, and then they get kind of regular appointments from a family nurse who supports them through the period of pregnancy and then also up until their child is two years old. And ideally, in the kind of ideal world, the partner or the father of the baby would also be included in that kind of package of support. But there are kind of practical and also potentially psychological barriers towards the partners or the fathers necessarily always engaging in that support. So my role was created, the kind of title of the role is Young Fathers

Starting point is 00:04:27 Worker. And my role is to essentially engage the young fathers in the family nurse partnership and to offer a more kind of psychology based intervention as opposed to the more nursing based intervention that maybe the mom and baby receive, I offer psychological support for those fathers to prepare them for fatherhood basically and think about the type of dad that they want to be. So it's a pilot project and it's currently funded for two years. And yeah, we're kind of seeing how it goes and hoping that we can make a meaningful impact on these young dads and their families.

Starting point is 00:05:13 So yeah, that's a bit about the role. That sounds so important. Have you yet got any teen fathers or are they still, are the babies still not yet born? Where are you at with that? So we, again, in an ideal world, we would like to start working with these fathers before their baby is born,

Starting point is 00:05:37 because we know that feelings of frustration and stress and anxiety really build in that period of pregnancy and it can obviously put a real strain on relationships as well. So ideally I'm starting to work with dads from as early as possible. Obviously there are some dads who for whatever reason haven't wanted to engage during that period and actually a lot of the time when their baby is born then maybe they might realise oh actually this support might be helpful for me whereas in the period where

Starting point is 00:06:12 you know the baby's not here yet I think they think oh you know maybe it'll be fine you know I don't need that support and then actually maybe they get a bit of a reality check when maybe they get a bit of a reality check when the baby does arrive. So there's kind of mixtures of when we start engaging with with the dads. But at the moment we only started the clinical work in January but we already have had a lot of referrals for this support. We've had a lot of young men who are really enthusiastic about accessing the support. So I currently work with nine young fathers and we have two more who are due to start any minute. So yeah, so far the kind of uptake of the service has been really enthusiastic and we've been pleasantly

Starting point is 00:07:00 surprised about how many young dads have wanted to access the service. So yeah. Amazing. And can we just, are we able to say which area of the country or which trust you're operating in? Is that okay? Yeah, of course. So I work in Bristol and so I sit within Sorona. We cover mainly Bristol, but there are some dads who maybe are living slightly further a field whose partner and baby are kind of living in Bristol, but they may be living a little bit further away.

Starting point is 00:07:33 And obviously we have to think about that as those cases come up. But yeah, most of our fathers are in Bristol and obviously Bristol is quite an interesting place to work. I would say there are real areas of deprivation and so there are challenges that come with that as well and I think even basic things like public transport in Bristol is not great so that can cause a real barrier as well to engaging some slightly harder to reach groups. So we've been navigating and kind of thinking about how we can adapt and respond to those difficulties as well.

Starting point is 00:08:16 Thank you so much. So you mentioned earlier on some of the barriers for teen dads being perhaps involved in their future children's lives or maybe even their current children's lives if baby's already been born. Could you guide us through a few of those barriers, Ali? Yeah, of course. So I think we did a literature review at the start of this project because there has been some research into this subject, into young dads and the psychological barriers that they experience and the process they go through when they're becoming a young dad. But to be honest, it's very minimal. And as you touched on at the start,

Starting point is 00:08:56 it's not an area that many people think about, or maybe in clinical psychology, it's certainly not something that regularly of regularly comes up as an area of research or kind of intervention. But what we know is that a lot of young dads feel like they are risk-assessed as opposed to viewed as a potentially useful resource. They often feel, so a kind of process that some researchers identified that is kind of specific to young dads is this process of sidelining, which is essentially where a lot of the package of support around the young mum and the baby is maybe quite intensive and really supportive and there's a lot of kind of charities and groups and support that

Starting point is 00:09:48 young mums can access. But the father is quite often not included in that thinking. And often what actually happens is a lot of the young dads I speak to, if the only questions they've been asked by professionals are things about their mental health, things about kind of the basic things like where do you live, how are you guys going to navigate your co-parenting, or whatever it might be. It's very practical things. Whereas they're not often included

Starting point is 00:10:21 in the narrative around, OK, what type of parent do you want to be? What's important to you? How do you feel about having this baby? And another thing that a lot of young dads experience that they've kind of talked to me about is a lot of people assume that because their pregnancy was potentially unplanned, that that means that it's unwanted, which actually a lot of the time isn't the case. There may be a period of shock, potentially denial, you know, frustration, feelings of

Starting point is 00:10:57 oh my gosh, my life is about to completely change or I really wanted to go traveling and now maybe that's not going to be able to happen. Of course, there's that massive kind of upheaval when they get this news but actually a lot of teenage fathers kind of really resist this idea that they're having an unwanted child because a lot of them are really, you know, they're really passionate about being a good dad. They're enthusiastic about providing their child with the best life possible. And whether they're still in a relationship with their partner or not, they really want to make it work. And I think so often they're not giving the tools or resources to do that. And I think if we shift to starting to see these young fathers as a really useful resource

Starting point is 00:11:52 to improve the outcomes for the whole family, then that could lead to a real shift in not only stigma and kind of societal expectations, but also it will lead to a better outcome for the child. So I think that's something that we've really thought about in our work and it's something that the young dads I work with are really kind of passionate about. So, so interesting speaking to you and just thinking about how important this work is really. At the moment, I'm watching a series on Netflix called Young Sheldon. In the current series, I think it might be series five. A spoiler alert for anyone who's not yet watching that series. Georgie, who is Young Sheldon's older brother, He is 17 and he was in a relationship with someone

Starting point is 00:12:47 and they are now expecting a child. And it's really been interesting because actually his character in earlier series was quite irresponsible. Lots of kind of butt of the jokes were kind of how silly and naive Georgie was, especially compared to young Sheldon, who was very, very intelligent. And it's been really interesting seeing him really rise into the role of a hopeful, excited, attuned, mindful, expectant father and how supportive he is being of the mother, even though they're no longer in a relationship, and how he's surprising everybody with his capacity to do that, even though he's only 17. I think this is the narrative that we want to really highlight, that it's not necessarily

Starting point is 00:13:37 about someone's age. Georgie has been fathered. He has a father and has always been living with his dad, but I'm guessing maybe perhaps for some of the families that you're working with and certainly some of the dads across the UK at the moment, they may be in the position where they're preparing themselves to become a father, but haven't ever really had an active or positive, supportive paternal role model in their own lives. Does that make sense, Ali? Yeah, definitely. And I think it's really varied, to be honest.

Starting point is 00:14:13 The dads that I work with, and some of them have really positive role models, male role models in their lives. And they have good relationships with their dads and when we reflect together, they can think about really positive memories that they have with their dads. They can remember kind of really emotional conversations they used to have with their, with their father when they were younger. And that's a really wonderful thing to be able to reflect on. And they're able to pick out the experiences

Starting point is 00:14:47 they had with their own father and think about, do I want to take that on as a dad? And do I want to be that type of father? Or is there a slight adjustment I want to make to maybe what my dad's approach was? And that's a really useful exercise for some of them. And like you said, a lot of the dads I work with have not had a relationship with their father or have had an extremely strained relationship with their dad or in fact, you know, both parents. And I think what's really interesting in terms of kind of thinking about kind of how they respond to becoming a dad is actually when they have a little girl. And I think that's been really interesting to see some of my dads who kind of maybe their

Starting point is 00:15:40 relationship with their dad was based around being quite disciplined and maybe they experienced quite a lot of harsh discipline from their father. Maybe that was something that they, before they had a child, thought that they wanted and then they've had a child of their own. Maybe there are differences with raising a little girl and a little boy and we kind of reflect a bit on that and kind of different approaches and things that they can do with their daughter because a lot of these boys, you know, they're 18, 19 and in their mind, you know, they're completely overwhelmed by the idea of having to plan activities for

Starting point is 00:16:22 their daughter and they're like, I don't know how to navigate this because my dad and I just used to game together or used to watch football. And obviously not that girls can't do those things but they're having to kind of really think in a way that they haven't had to maybe think before. And I think we do a really interesting exercise where we think about the traits that their father had,

Starting point is 00:16:52 if they did have a relationship with their father. And then we map out this kind of quote unquote ideal father next to that. And we look at, we kind of make a list of all the traits of their father. And they highlight of make a list of all the traits of their father and they highlight and kind of move across all the traits that they want to bring into their own kind of father identity and they think about the ones that they want to leave behind. So a client I'm working with at the moment, his father did use kind of physical punishment. And he thought, and this young father thought

Starting point is 00:17:25 that that was something that he agreed with. He kept kind of saying at the start, well, it works for me. Look at me. I'm fine. And actually, as we kind of discussed that idea of discipline, what actually became apparent is what he was talking about is he wanted boundaries for his child and actually it wasn't that he felt physical punishment was appropriate, he felt that he wanted to find a new way to set boundaries with his child and that was a really interesting exercise to think with him about okay how are there, what are the other ways that we could set boundaries with our children that aren't kind't that punitive,

Starting point is 00:18:05 don't use that punitive approach, how can we build that and we identified building that trusting and nurturing relationship with his child would help him to lay down those boundaries. That was a really nice exercise to reframe his way of thinking about discipline and all of those kind of things. So yeah, I think it's really varied how I work with the dads and think about their experiences of being fathered. It's a really mixed bag, really. That sounds so lovely. Like sounds really nourishing actually as a piece of work. And I know when I've worked with 17 year olds, not on kind of becoming a father issue, but a few of the 17 year olds have said to me, they have been young men, they've said,

Starting point is 00:19:00 this is just the best work. I know one of the, one of the sisters of one of the young people I was working with, they were all sitting having dinner together one evening and he said, oh, I've got my therapy with Marianne tomorrow and she went, all right. Is that something to look forward to, is it? Like, great. Are you not dreading that? And he went, no, I really like it. Like, she's really good and I really value our work. And it's like, actually, that's really powerful. And he would say to me regularly, everyone my age should have this. Like, because

Starting point is 00:19:38 you really hold that non-judgmental space, I can bring anything to you. We can pick that apart and look at it, but also having you not really know the people in my life, but also helping think about what might be my wants, my desires, my needs, my wishes, but also helping me find a middle ground and look at the kind of the darker fears, the things that might feel scary or they might feel guilt inducing and knowing it's safe to bring all of that there. So I guess probably you're doing some very important work along those lines as well as preparing someone for what we call pretrescence. So the idea of becoming a father and fatherhood. So I'd done an episode on Matrescence before, which is kind of the issue of kind of becoming a mother. But this is,

Starting point is 00:20:34 yeah, like an issue of Patrescence, which is making it conscious, making it mindful. And actually, yeah, like thinks, you know, all the baby magazines, I'm a mama of two, but all the baby magazines I read and the psychology forums I was part of and the Facebook groups I was part of when I was pregnant with my first really helped me in my journey in matressence to helped me in my journey in matrescence to mindfully transition to that motherhood role and to learn to become a mother, which included for me going along to NCT classes and things like that. But I definitely think there's less focus on that for men. I don't know of any magazines specializing in supporting expecting fathers. There are expecting father books aren't there but this definitely just for mine in my knowledge just isn't spoken about but it's such an important issue. Yeah definitely and I think just

Starting point is 00:21:36 touching on what you were saying there about kind of how that young person you were working with said oh everyone, everyone should get this. You know, that's certainly been the feedback that I've been getting. And I think what's so important about this work is they feel like, because this role has been created to work specifically with young fathers, I think they really feel kind of seen and heard and supported because my

Starting point is 00:22:09 role is really clear. I work with the fathers and there's not many services that specifically have that function. Of course, midwives and health visitors and family nurses can include the father in that package of support. But a lot of the young fathers I speak to, they say, my family nurse is great and I love sitting in the sessions. But the focus is still quite rightly

Starting point is 00:22:38 on how mom's feeling, how the pregnancy's going, the sessions are around like breastfeeding, labour and all of these kind of things. But actually, even if the professional is, you know, really trying to include the father, there's not that space separate from their partner and their baby to kind of say, I'm actually really struggling or or I don't understand this, or you know, what's this? And we did, we partner up with a charity up north who are an amazing charity, work with young fathers and you know, they shared that actually a lot of the young dads they work with went through this really long period of having all these scans and midwifery appointments and things,

Starting point is 00:23:25 and then actually said to the people running the charity, you know, I have no idea what perinatal means. And everyone keeps saying this word to me, and I have no clue what they mean. No one sat down and explained it to me, you know, and maybe their partner has been reading the books and has been, you has been looking at the leaflets and things and Googling. But I think it is a bit different for our young boys. I think that it's not necessarily something. I don't want to make sweeping generalizations,

Starting point is 00:24:00 but it's not. They don't necessarily think to go out and seek out a book about perinatal mental health or whatever it might be, because they maybe don't feel welcome in that space. And again, going back to what I said at the start, they feel risk-assessed, they feel sidelined, and they feel like they're constantly being monitored. So it's really hard for them to ask those questions, like, really, sorry, I don't understand what's happening here, or I don't understand this part, or, you know,

Starting point is 00:24:34 they feel, I think, not necessarily because of the professionals, but just because of society as a whole, they feel judged, and they feel like they're not able to ask those questions. And I'm working with a young dad at the moment who, you know, his partner's family, you know, maybe have views that he doesn't get that involved with the baby and they have concerns around that. And actually when we sat down and had our session, just me and him,

Starting point is 00:25:08 he said to me, everyone keeps having a go at me for not holding the baby, but no one has ever shown me how to hold a baby. And I'm, it's too far along now. My baby's, you know, however many months old, I'm now too embarrassed to ask, could someone please show me because I'm terrified that I'm gonna drop her or I'm gonna hurt her. And if you didn't delve deeper into what was going on for that dad, you might just look at him and think, God, he doesn't want to hold his baby, you know, that's not great. But actually, when you sit down and you talk with them about what's actually

Starting point is 00:25:50 going on for you, that's a really reasonable thing to feel terrified of if you're a 17-year-old and you've never held a newborn baby and no one's shown you how to, that's really scary. It really is such an important point and we ought to be able to, yeah, like hear whatever the fears are, but also dig for the real reasons that it might not be able to tell anyone else. But even, you know, I had a almost three-year-old when I had a newborn and even though

Starting point is 00:26:22 I already had had a newborn before, I still didn't really know how to hold a newborn again because I was so used to holding like a, you know, almost three year old who's clambering all over me. Like, and if I was to pick up anyone else's newborn baby now, you know, I feel anxious about that as well. So it's just normalizing that's really okay. I guess you know people might be watching this either because they are aspiring psychs themselves or maybe because they are of themselves finding themselves that they're going to become teenage fathers or you know that maybe a parent of

Starting point is 00:27:01 someone who is kind of linked to this impending baby is watching this. They might not know what perinatal means either. What's a brief explanation of what perinatal means, Ali? There's lots of different language around it, but kind of, I guess the perinatal period is the period of around labor, so before pregnancy, labor. And just after, it's that general period. And then we also have postnatal, which is after birth. So that can obviously stretch on a little bit longer. And then we also have antenatal, which is before birth. And obviously all of those periods come with

Starting point is 00:27:55 massive kind of upheavals for the mother, the father, and the system as a whole, and whether that's about hormones or kind of anticipation of labor. And obviously when you're a teenager, you know, a lot of the, you know, it's not necessarily a conversation you've had before what labor looks like, or how to support your partners through labour and you know it's a really mixed response from a lot of the dads I work with

Starting point is 00:28:30 where actually you know labour might have been really quite traumatic experience for them because you can obviously talk to someone about what it's going to be like but then it never quite captures how kind of intense and scary it can actually feel when you're kind of in the room. So I think, you know, after the birth, a lot of these dads are in a real kind of period of shock. Sometimes they're in a period of like absolute amazement for what their partner's just gone through. period of like absolute amazement for what their partner has just gone through during the period of feeling just like complete overwhelming love for their child and their partner. And sometimes actually it can be a time when everyone, everything feels very real all of a sudden.

Starting point is 00:29:19 And that can be really, really difficult for these young people. And I think it's an incredibly difficult time for anyone. But I think when you're that young and when you've never experienced it before and you may be in kind of quite a recent relationship, you know, it may not be that these relationships have been kind of long-term things, and then navigating that as a couple or as a co-parenting dynamic, that's really, really difficult.

Starting point is 00:29:54 Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, there might be hostilities. It might be that for whatever reason the male is seen as being the problem here. If this had been an unplanned pregnancy, actually this is your fault. Some of the anger and the uncertainty and the anxiety might get put in the direction of the young male's way. But of course, what we know is it does take two to create a baby, but it's a very big growth period for the mother, for the father and for all of the systems around that couple as well. Just thinking, I know this is not legal advice, but thinking around the birth certificate and when dads are named or not named and what's called parental responsibility, am I right in thinking that if the dad is named on the birth certificate,

Starting point is 00:30:46 that automatically gives them what we call parental responsibility in the UK? Do you know the answer to that, Ali? I actually don't know the answer to that. But I know that a lot of, not a lot of. Some of the fathers I work with, there are definitely difficulties around parental responsibility, certainly if the couple are not together. And a few of the dads I work with, there is kind of a history of interpersonal violence and domestic abuse and things. So we have to tread really carefully when I have to work really closely with the family nurses who are predominantly supporting mum and baby and I'm supporting the father, we have long conversations and really careful planning around how we work

Starting point is 00:31:48 with the family around that, because obviously, we would like them to develop a co-parenting relationship that is supportive for the baby and beneficial for the system as a whole. However, we have to balance that really carefully with kind of safeguarding concerns. We have to link in with social care and kind of that side of things a lot as well to kind of inform our decision making. So it is complicated and a lot of the time, you know, the dads I work with might not see their child as much as they would like to, but there's quite a lot of maybe tension between them

Starting point is 00:32:32 and their partner's family. And so it's really complicated and it's certainly not something that is kind of straightforward. It's really complex and requires quite a lot of planning and thinking around on our side, I think. Yeah, and I guess also there's probably family court proceedings that happen sometimes as well so that people can kind of formally sort out their shared parenting. Obviously, like you say, that is trickier if there's been any violence or aggression or issues that might indicate that either of the parents might pose a risk to themselves or the child.

Starting point is 00:33:14 What we know is that actually the evidence shows us that children thrive with attuned supportive mothers and fathers. It sounds really wonderful the work that you guys are doing in your service to really support those relationships and to allow young fathers to step into that role with confidence, even if they haven't necessarily had that safe non-judgmental space and those role models for themselves in their own lives. Is there a type of therapeutic modality or approach that you're tending to use or is it kind of more practical and kind of relationship building work that you're doing, Ali? Yeah, it's a good question because certainly, I mean, we had a period of planning, obviously, before we kind of launched this project.

Starting point is 00:34:09 And what we've realized is it's really, it's easy to kind of plan what you would like things to look like. And then as we know, when you actually come to do the clinical work, quite often you think, particularly in a pilot like this, you have to have a bit of a shift or kind of realise, oh actually this is working and this isn't working and we've certainly had to do that a lot. You know, I work really closely with my supervisor who is a clinical psychologist and we think together kind of every week about what's working, what's not working.

Starting point is 00:34:45 And I think what I reflected on a lot is that generally assistant psychologists role, at least in my experience, you kind of have a caseload and you have your appointments and kind of you have quite a clear approach that you're using. And what's different about this project is obviously what we've said from the start

Starting point is 00:35:09 is 50% of it is engagement. You know, 50% of the job was always gonna be to try and get these dads engaged in the service. As you touched on at the start, these are young men who feel quite resistant to engaging with professionals because of past experiences or whatever it might be. And so we've had a long period of just building those relationships. I tend to work a lot outdoors, you know, we go to

Starting point is 00:35:37 parks, we go for walk and if not that then it's home visiting as opposed to coming into the clinic. So it's maybe a little bit more kind of informal than some other AP roles I've had before. And I think in terms of kind of the therapeutic modality we're using, I've used a lot of motivational interviewing. So I did the motivational interviewing training during the kind of planning phase and then I've used that kind of at the starting, in the starting sessions with these dads. I've kind of been able to use those principles to help them reflect on what they would like from the support, what they would like to move towards, what their goals are, what are the things that they might be doing that are keeping them stuck, what

Starting point is 00:36:27 are their protective factors, what are their strengths, and all those kind of things. And then now we're moving slightly more into the kind of intervention part of the work, I suppose. And although that is still really flexible, it's really led by the father themselves because as I said, it's all about engagement and keeping them engaged and keeping them kind of talking and reflecting. So I'm really flexible, but we are mainly using kind

Starting point is 00:36:59 of an acceptance and commitment therapy type approach. And that's mixed in with some other kind of resources that the Family Nurse Partnership in general use as well. So we're kind of using a bit of a mismatch of things, but with the acceptance and commitment therapy approach, I think what we realised quite early on is a lot of these dads have quite strong pre-existing beliefs about themselves, about potentially feeling like they're not good enough, feeling like they don't know what they're doing, feeling like they don't have enough confidence or skill or knowledge to be a dad. And I think an acceptance and commitment approach is helping them to identify their values,

Starting point is 00:37:55 to think kind of in a more general way about the things that might have happened in the past that maybe they would like to leave behind and not bring with them and think about kind of new directions and where they want to move forward. And I think we thought briefly about a slightly more kind of that traditional CBT based approach, but what seems to be working really well What seems to be working really well is having kind of a slightly more flexible approach and an approach that can be used when we're out on walks

Starting point is 00:38:32 and can be used when we're sat in the park or whatever it might be. And so we felt that maybe acceptance and commitment therapy would work a little bit better in those settings. And it's something that can be a little bit better in those settings and it's something that can be a little bit more creative as well. So that's the approach we're kind of using at the moment but we're kind of assessing and reviewing all the time. So it may be that our approach slightly changes but yeah that's kind of what we're using at the moment. Brilliant. Thank you. That's really helpful for clarifying that. If there was a teenage

Starting point is 00:39:10 father watching this or someone that's due to become a teenage father, are there maybe a couple of pieces of advice or kind of reassurance that might be helpful for him to be hearing and seeing right now? Ali, sorry to put you on the spot with that. Do take a moment to think about that if that would be helpful for him to be hearing and seeing right now, Ali? Sorry to put you on the spot with that. Do take a moment to think about that, if that would be helpful. No, I think it's a really important thing to ask. I think that what we obviously, I'm by no means an expert, but what I've done a lot of the reading around the research and obviously I've done a lot of the practical clinical work myself as well. I think what I would say is that finding some kind of neutral space potentially away from from your family or your partner,

Starting point is 00:40:05 finding a supportive space that you can access that just gives you a bit of a sense of community. I think that's really important. There are things emerging across the country that are not only specifically for dads, but there are also kind of charities that are working specifically with young dads. And there are some really great resources, websites, apps, social media pages and things. So whether it's even like an Instagram page

Starting point is 00:40:36 that you can look at that kind of has information about being a young dad or kind of reassuring messages or speaks about other young dads' personal experiences. I think that knowing that you're not alone in how you're feeling is always really important for anything. But I think particularly when you're a young father, it is a small group and it is a very unique experience. We know that the things that young fathers go through, it is slightly different to what older fathers go through. There are really specific kind of psychological things that occur for young fathers specifically. So I think it's really valuable to be able to find other people who can relate to your experiences. And, you know, I can maybe share the details of those charities or something,

Starting point is 00:41:29 and maybe put it somewhere that would be helpful. But I think that would be my first piece of advice. And secondly, to kind of try, if you can, to kind of speak up for yourself as well in the situations where you are feeling sidelined or you're feeling risk-assessed. Don't be afraid to ask important questions. If you're feeling really confused about the language people are using, if you struggle to understand the level of information that is being told to you if you're, you know, attending an antenatal class with your partner or your midwifery appointment or whatever it might be. I think, you know, don't be afraid to advocate for yourself and find other people who can also advocate for you. So if you've got a family member who can maybe support you with appointments or support you with a phone call

Starting point is 00:42:27 Or you can speak to your GP if you're feeling low or anxious or whatever it might be. I think just being able to Really? Realize that you are a valuable resource for your family, but also for your child. And we know all the research points, as you touched on, to the fact that when children have attuned, nurturing present fathers around, that results in really positive outcomes for children. So know that you are a really important piece of the puzzle,

Starting point is 00:43:06 even if you don't feel like it. And hopefully it's kind of a bit of a cycle really, because if more young fathers speak up about feeling sidelined or risk-assessed, then hopefully that will feed into the wider narrative around people thinking more about young fathers or fathers in general and thinking about changing policies and changing the way we work with dads.

Starting point is 00:43:32 And hopefully it will kind of be that sort of symbiotic relationship where one feeds into the other and eventually will be in a place where fathers are viewed as just as much of an important resource as mums are. I think that it's really important. They're my main pieces of advice, I think. I hope that has helped. Absolutely. They're really, really useful. I think to obviously underpin everything you've said, but perhaps think about some other bits and pieces as well. It's like it's never too late. Even if your baby is one, two, three, you've got a young child that's about to start school, you've only met them a few times, it's never

Starting point is 00:44:12 too late. There's always a chance to create a relationship and to become a father. It doesn't matter about shame and guilt. We can always work through that. We can almost de-shame this process. We are where we are right now. We can't necessarily change the past, but we can certainly get some of that trauma to lay flatter if it's stopping us from thriving in our relationships with those around us and in becoming a mother or a father. Don't feel invalidated. If people are saying, oh, it'd be better if you just went away and weren't part of this child's life, everyone would be better off without you. That doesn't necessarily mean that's true. You still can choose, so long as it's not a risk to yourself or your baby or, you know, the factors are all safe, shall we say. You still can

Starting point is 00:45:06 choose to be a father and to be attuned and present and that's okay. It's not silly, is it, to want to be a father? You don't have to let other people get on and do that for you. It's safe for you to explore some of those factors about what that would look like, how that would be for you, so that you can be a consistent father. I think this is some of the stuff that's really powerful is we want children to have an experience of consistent, reliable, safe parents. And in supporting both parents and the systems around them, we want to give everybody the best chance of having that consistency.

Starting point is 00:45:45 Yeah, so that you can be predictable and reliable in a good way, not the kind of parent that's like, oh, they've let me down again. We want you to feel like it's safe for you to show up and you enjoy those relationships. Is that kind of fair to say, Ali? Yeah, I think that's a really good question and a good point to make. I think that there's a lot of pressure for parents in general, but I think, you know, if we're thinking more specifically about fathers, to feel like you're kind of the finished package when you become a dad. And I think what's really important to mention is that, you know, the dads I work with they're 17, 18, 19, 20. And, you know, no one's the finished package at, well, no one's the finished package ever, but we're constantly evolving. But I think, you know, when you're that young, you know, you're going to still have a lot of kind of work to do on your identity, what's important to you,

Starting point is 00:46:51 what makes you tick, what your values are. So it's kind of acknowledging that there's not, there doesn't need to be this pressure around feeling like, oh, I'm not ready to be a dad, you know, I haven't worked on all my stuff yet. Because actually, in some ways, that can sometimes be a really, like, beautiful, meaningful thing. Because you're kind of, I think a lot of my dads model really nicely to their children that actually they're not perfect and they're still working things out and there's still things that they want to achieve and things that they're not sure about and they're learning as they go and I think as long as you're trying your best you know you're seeking out support and

Starting point is 00:47:42 information when you feel a bit lost and not feeling, you know, like you're not able to do that, feeling that you have just as much of a right to seek out support and talk to people about how you're feeling as anyone else. And I think we really as a kind of wider society, and particularly as mental health services, we need to really start acknowledging with a bit more kind of seriousness how much of a massive upheaval in identity it is to be a young parent. It's a big undertaking and it requires a lot of support and yeah nurturing and I think that we have a long way to go but I think things are moving in the right

Starting point is 00:48:29 direction and hopefully in the future we'll live in a time where you know all parents in whatever you know whatever gender will feel supported and heard and seen and seen as a really important resource for the whole family. That's kind of what we hope to help to move towards through this project. Yeah, and it sounds like an incredible project, but I became a parent at 32 and it was still a steep learning curve. I was ready for it and it was a planned pregnancy and I had done lots of lovely things before becoming a parent. But like we said earlier,

Starting point is 00:49:13 you are where you are. You're the age you are. You are a parent or you're becoming a parent and you can still move forward with your life. This isn't the end of your life. This is the start of a new generation of your life and it doesn't need to feel... It's safe for it to be an exciting thing, but of course it might feel a bit scary too as well. But we can still move forward when things might feel scary. That's okay, but trying, like you said, to get people around you who are supportive, who are going to support you in your journey in becoming a young father is so important, isn't it? Definitely. And I think that just also being flexible in just rolling with what you're feeling from day to day. It's very

Starting point is 00:50:08 acceptance and commitment therapy kind of way of thinking. But just if one day you feel excited and so in love with your baby and so attached and everything's going amazingly and then the next day you feel like, oh my gosh, you know, I'm totally overwhelmed. I, you know, I'm feeling anxious, I'm feeling low. What have I done? All of these feelings, like, I think it's really important to acknowledge that all of these feelings are welcome. And they're, you know, part of the process and just leaning into how you're feeling and just kind of welcoming that with a bit of acceptance and being kind to yourself as well. I think it's really important and I think without generalizing massively, you know, I think young men are not always that kind to themselves.

Starting point is 00:51:00 And I think that, you know, we have a, there's a long way to go as a society in terms of making young men feel welcome with feelings of vulnerability and expressing feelings of shame or embarrassment or hurt or whatever it might be. So yeah, I think that's really important. Yeah. And it wouldn't be okay to have an episode talking about children and babies without saying just a quick mention about sleep. Sleep is really challenging. And what I know from being a parent is when we're incredibly exhausted, perhaps these babies, in my case, one of them woke 31 times a night, what I noticed is that the self-criticism, the self-doubt really ramps up. There's more of a vulnerability when we are physically exhausted.

Starting point is 00:51:46 So please, if you are tired, try to get some rest. Try to ask others around you to support you so that you can get some sleep as well. And that goes for the mother as well. Like, sleep is a big one and affects so many factors, doesn't it, Ali? Right. I would just like to thank you, Ali, for your time in bringing this to our audience and for your really thoughtful, insightful approach in this episode. Thank you so much, Ali. Thank you. Yeah, it's been great. Thanks, Marianne. You're so welcome and do stay in touch.

Starting point is 00:52:22 Yeah, I will. Thank you so much for watching. I hope that you found that to be as useful as I found it interesting. I would love your thoughts. If you're watching on YouTube, please do drop me a comment. Please do drop in a like on the episode if you do find it helpful. If you're listening to this as a podcast episode, please do follow the show. Please, if you're listening on Apple, please rate and review. If you're on Spotify, don't forget, you can always drop in a Q&A and you can still subscribe to the show too. If you're an aspiring psychologist, please do come along to the aspiring psychologist

Starting point is 00:52:55 community on Facebook, which is my free Facebook group. If you love these kinds of conversations, the growth that can take place from these sorts of interesting, compassionate, curious conversations, I think you'll really like the Aspiring Psychologist membership too. You can join from just 30 pounds a month with no minimum term. And if you're ready for a longer term commitment, we've also got the Ready to Rise program,

Starting point is 00:53:21 which is where you can work in a one-to-one capacity with me, Dr. Marianne Trent, to really shoot for your psychology career dreams. However, you might well be a teenage father or supporting someone that is, and therefore none of that might be relevant. But thank you still for being here, and please let me know what future content

Starting point is 00:53:42 you would find helpful, wherever you are listening to or watching this podcast. Hi, my name is Emily. I am a master's student studying clinical psychology at Southampton. I bought the book The Clinical Psychologist Collective to help myself prepare for my first round of doctorate applications and I'm so glad I did. Seeing how others have reflected on their journeys has been so insightful and it's given me a lot to reflect about with my own journey and skills. It's also helped to put things into perspective, and reminded me that if I don't get onto the doctorate this year, that's okay. I think the most unexpected

Starting point is 00:54:52 pleasure of this book, however, was just how inspirational each and every person's journey was, and using these stories as my morning motivation each day has been such a pleasure. I'm almost reluctant to come to the end.

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The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast - Teen Dad Support: Real Help for Young Fathers

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