The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast - The Psychology Mum: From NHS Clinician to Global Mental Health Creator

Episode Date: February 20, 2026

In this episode of The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast, I’m joined by Dr Emma Hepburn, Clinical Psychologist and creator of The Psychology Mum, to explore burnout, shame in mental health professionals, creativity in clinical psychology, and what happens when your body forces you to stop. We discuss how Emma’s illustrations began in NHS brain injury groups, how her “capacity cup” drawing went viral during the pandemic, and how social media traction unexpectedly led to publishing opportunities. We unpack the psychology of burnout, emotional exhaustion, stress overload, shame narratives, and why even clinical psychologists are not immune to mental health difficulties. Emma also introduces her fourth book, The Anti-Burnout Book, and explains how visual metaphors like the match, the teeny tiny thing, Brian the Brain, and the tortoise help bring psychological theory to life. This episode is relevant for clinical psychologists, aspiring psychologists, NHS staff, teachers, parents, creators, and anyone interested in burnout recovery, stress management, shame resilience, emotional regulation, and sustainable wellbeing. Timestamps 00:00 – The quiet phase before burnout 02:35 – How The Psychology Mum began in NHS brain injury groups 05:20 – When Emma’s illustrations started to snowball 07:18 – Co-creation and why her work resonated during the pandemic 09:45 – Writing her first book just before lockdown 14:07 – Introducing her fourth book: The Anti-Burnout Book 16:42 – The Edinburgh weekend that became a turning point 20:35 – When your body says “stop” 22:09 – Burnout, shame, and being a clinical psychologist 24:32 – Externalising shame and the “negative ninja takeover” 28:45 – The “teeny tiny thing” that tips you over 30:07 – Why slowing down increases long-term achievement 33:06 – Technology, social media and burnout 34:43 – Where to find The Anti-Burnout Book Links:📲 Follow Dr Emma Hepburn on instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thepsychologymum/📚 Check out Emma's books here: https://amzn.to/4rvh6GI🫶 To join my podcast membership to get early access to episodes and / or exclusive weekly content head to: https://the-aspiring-psychologist.captivate.fm/support or to the Apple Podcasts App: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-aspiring-psychologist-podcast/id1605628278 or to YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOwjrIP_jatiqlAivJE2mgQ/join📚 To check out The Clinical...

Most people don't realise they're burned out until their body forces them to stop. But long before that, there's often a quieter face, one that people keep explaining away. Nothing's really wrong, but I don't feel like myself anymore. In this episode, myself and Dr Emma Hepburn, aka the Psychology Mum, known for making psychology visual and accessible through her brilliant drawings. Unpack what's really happening beneath the surface long before burnout breaks you. I hope you find it so useful if you do like and subscribe for more. Hi, I just want to welcome along Dr Emma Hepburn,

clinical psychologist, also known as the psychology mum to the podcast. Hi Emma. Good afternoon or hello. Thank you for being here. Could you tell us a little bit about who the psychology mum is and how she came to be? Yeah, so I was working in the NHS. in a brain injury group and I was doing lots of illustrations for that because one of the things of working with brain injury is you need to be able to communicate things in a way that people

can remember and use in their day-to-day life. So as part of this brain injury group, I was doing these big kind of posters, hand-drawn, so the group could remember certain concepts and take them and use them. And they were really engaging with these. I also have always drawn as part of my clinical work. So sitting with children or people with neuropsychology, I've always done. drawn things, maybe their formulation or an idea we're talking about, giving it away with them just to do it. So I've always drawn. And I decided to try and make these posters a little bit better than NHS paper from the printer and start drawing them out on my iPad. So I started drawing them out. And I thought, you know, wouldn't it be great if actually more people could use these

rather than just the 12 people I was currently working with or the one person you're working with in our clinic. So I thought, I'll start an Instagram account. And at the time, so it was at 2018, I think, there was very few psychologists on social media. And our social media guidelines were very, like, vague and unclear. So I was like, I don't know what this is going to, how this is going to be. I don't know how the profession will take this. So I didn't want my name on it. I didn't want to put it as Dr. Emma Hepburn. So I sat, I thought, what will I call it? And I said to my husband, he said, well, you're a psychologist and you're a mum. So why do you do that?

I was like, okay, the psychology mum. So there wasn't really much thought to it, to be totally honest. So I started posting this, the psychology mum. And that's really become my kind of moniker or handle for the illustrations. So I still use that for the illustrations. So, you know, in the bottom left hand corner, somewhere in the illustration, there will always be the psychology mum. So it's like a kind of comic handle for it. So for a couple of years

I kept on putting things out and they were kind of people were really enjoying them people were picking up on them they were getting shared lots I hadn't really thought much about you know

what the aims were for social media if I'm totally honest I really didn't like social media much I had my own personal account I had about five friends in it most of it were my family so they kind of had to be friends with me so I didn't have much kind of

idea of what I was doing I just thought quite cool to do something a bit different. So I didn't have my name on it. I didn't show my face. I didn't do anything. And then I guess the pandemic hit and I started, like most psychologists, I got redeployed to work and staff wellbeing. So I was in a hospital wellbeing centre hearing people's experiences of working on the front line and hearing their experiences of COVID. So I would come home and I kind of needed to process this. So I started drawing them out. this is what I've been hearing.

Obviously, nothing personal, nothing specific I'd been hearing. And this is when it just started to grow and grow and grow. And it was getting shared by, you know, I'm not very good at known famous people, but somebody would say, well, so on so shared your post, and I'd be like, who's that? But some people I did know, so like Alanis Morissette,

you know, started following me. I was like, okay, I know her. So, you know, it just started growing, growing and growing exponentially. And around the same time, I was approached by a publisher to write a book. And they really said, you can't continue under a pseudonym. You need to put your name on it to give yourself credibility. They need to know you actually do have a qualification. There is credibility behind these drawings.

There is kind of, you know, science, theory, training behind these drawings. So if we're going to do a book, you do need to put your name on it. So reluctantly, I then added my name to as well. and de-anonymised my account from being the psychology mum. So that's how it all came around. Amazing. I mean, yeah, Alanis Morissette. And isn't it ironic?

Well, you can imagine the text messaging between me and my husband. Alanis Morissette has followed me. Text Mac. Isn't that ironic? My equivalent of that is that I adore Jeremy Vine and he follows me on Instagram now and I'm like, Love it. Love it. Love Jeremy. But yeah, was there like one particular drawing that was pivotal, which was the one that really started the snowballing? Or did they all sort of take off at the same time? Because of the perfect storm of the pandemic and everyone having their phones in their hands. Yeah, I mean, I think beforehand they were being shared lots. So the original drawing that started at all was the capacity cup, which is basically a kind of really simplified everyday version of the stress.

bucket, but making it so simple. And that started from the brain injury group where I was trying to explain how we have limited capacity and why sometimes it overflows. And I actually just picked up from a table. I said, it's like a cup. We old coffee cups. It's like a cup. And just imagine it's getting full, but you're a full capacity. Then through it out, it became part of the group. And then through it out slightly nicer, slightly more colourful, not using NHS viral pens. So that even before the pandemic became, you know, was something that people obviously engaged with and got the concept and just understood and clicked with them. And so even before the pandemic, things were being shared lots. So that was probably one which started, I don't know if it was the first time I drew,

but it certainly started a lot of it. And then in the pandemic, I'd say everything I did, really, people were just, it was making, I think it was making sense of it for people. It was helping people understand what they were experiencing because none of us had experienced it before. We were all trying to make sense of it. It was a bizarre new world. And what I was doing, I guess it was twofold. I was taking experiences I'd heard, but also I was doing them with people on Instagram. So I'd say, I'm doing this drawing.

I put up a cup without anything in it. But the kind of titles, I said, what would you put in here? So it was almost like a thematic analysis. People would send their responses to me and I'd theme them, nothing that could be identified, but I'd theme them and then put them into the drawing. So it was kind of a collective experience,

not just my experience, not just people had scenes experience, but collective experience and then put those up. So I'd say just about every post was just, you know, it was just, yeah, just going a little bit out of control. But then that makes it so, you know, validating for people, which is why it was really resonating, doesn't it? And it's that co-ownership that, yes, I see myself in the work of the psychology

mum, and I feel like she's actually speaking to me and in some cases for me as well. with that co-ownership. Sounds like some really powerful, powerful stuff to have done. How often were you posting during the pandemic? Oh gosh. I mean, I have no social media plan. I have never had a social media plan.

So it was erratic when I had the chance. When my children were usually in bed, I was sit and do it. But I was also finding it personally very relaxing. I've always been quite creative. So drawing was really at that point my way to switch off. And also makes sense of my own experiences and working, you know, in a staff well-being during the pandemic. So it was erratic.

I could post maybe three, four times one week and the next time nothing, because I had far more on. There was no clear plan. And I remember people getting touched with me saying, what's your social media strategy? I was like, find the time when I can. That's my social media strategy, which, you know, it was nice that I just chose to do it when I wanted to,

but also probably made it on the manageable longer term as a start. to grow. Yeah, I think even for myself, speaking as a creator and a psychologist at the same time, I need a job plan. I need to know, for example, when I'm going to record podcasts, when I'm going to have time to watch the edits, when I'm going to have time to think about thumbnails and all of that jazz. Because this stuff isn't just going to happen by magic. I think when we don't have that structure, then we can often pick up the slack,

which I guess ultimately contributes to our own inner resources running thin, which then heads us towards the concept and the reality of burnout, which is of course what we're going to be talking about today as well, because you've got a new book looking at burnout. But before we get to that, what was it like then when you were creating your first book baby? Like, how did that all go? So that was just before the pandemic hit. So I actually wrote it from January to March, 20.

And I handed in, I think, the final draft. I mean, there's multiple iterations asked, you know, but one of the final drafts. Just as the kind of March 2020, we were talking about locking down. And one of the things I'd said in it was in my, you know, in the recent pandemic, because the book was coming out in September. And I remember at the time thinking, oh, should I be saying this? We don't know where this is going. And the editor, who was fantastic, saying, well, I think we shouldn't maybe emphasize

this too much because it'll be it probably be over by the time the book comes out in September. And I think that's how we were all thinking. So I mean, I remember it, you know, I had a really kind of contained period to do it and really enjoyed doing it. It was really, you know, something that was really exciting, you know, taking it from an online format into a written format and doing something creative around psychology. And that's, you know, inherently exciting. So it was a, you know, an enjoyable process putting it together. And of course, just the hands in, you know, the lockdowns hit, the whole thing, you know, the whole pandemic started, which went on for much longer than any of us could have anticipated.

So by the time the book came out to September 2020, I think we were just about to go into the next lockdown. You know how we all get confused about the timelines roundabout then because time became blurred and strange. And also, I'm in Scotland. So our timelines for lockdowns for lockdowns. were slightly different to England, which were different to other countries. But I remember that we were either still in lockdown or about to go into another lockdown. So it became a lot of online work, recordings, things online. Actually, it's funny setting this up because I haven't done this for a while

because this was actually giving me flashbacks to that time of, you know, doing things online. So all the things I thought would happen as an author, you go into events, see my book, in a bookshop just didn't happen. I had no experience of that. So it was all online and all digital and yes. So it was an interesting experience, but a very enjoyable experience right in the first book, which is something I think, you know, in clinical psychology training, it's not necessarily something you think you will do. So it was very exciting for me to be doing that. Well, congratulations on that. And I hope that you've since seen your first book baby on a, on a shelf in a bookshop. Yeah, I have a multiple occasions. And I still,

And I actually posted a couple of days ago because I was down in Edinburgh. And I saw two of my books in a big shop. And I still get a thrill. An absolute thrill of seeing it. And I don't know if that's because I didn't see it for so long. Or maybe it's just because it still has some things like, oh, I'm an author. That's quite exciting. Yes, I still take a photo every time and I have lots of photos on my phone of my book in a book shop,

which is very, very uncool. And my kids think it's very uncool when I do it. I don't think it's uncool and I totally get it. I love it. Do it more. Do it. Continue to do it every time you see it, I would say. And of course, you know, your first book baby is not your only book baby. Others followed quite quickly, didn't they? So then, yes, then I wrote three books in three years. So the first one, a toolkit for modern life, came out in September 2020. And then September 2020. one, a toolkit for happiness. And then the completion of the trilogy was due to come out in September 2022. But I delayed it a bit just because I had a lot going on. And it came out in January, 2023.

So a toolkit for your emotions, the completion of the trilogy. There we go. Amazing. So in your mind, it was always going to be a trilogy? No. No, it wasn't. It wasn't going to be a trilogy. It was, I didn't know if I was going to write any other books after the first one.

I think it is unpredictable as an author. You don't know, particularly when you don't know much about the publishing industry. I didn't know what was going to happen, but then after that it was decided with the publisher. We were going to write three in the same series. Lovely. Well, they are lovely books. And now we are here talking about, you know, you of course, but also your fourth book, baby. which now we've kind of learned a bit about the whistle stop tour,

kind of makes a lot of sense, because actually the book is about burnout, and it's really inspired by your own tale of burnout and how that came about and how you kind of have learned to thrive again. Could you guide us through that a little bit, Emma? Unfortunately, I can't show you the book because it has been printed or it has been printed, and I'm awaiting copies,

but I can show your little figure from the front cover. So this is the flame from the front cover, which goes from being fully lit, excited, energetic. If we turn it round, and it turns to burnt out. There's a little face in there too. However, I am now through that stage, and back to my flame, being lit again.

So this really is the story. This is what inspired the book. So unlike my previous books, where there was a little bit of personal information in them, but very, very small amounts. This is a slightly different book because not only is about the psychological theory of burnout, the science behind it, the therapeutic skills and tools to support you getting out of burnout, but also stopping you getting into burnout in the first place. It also, as you know, has my story woven through it.

So what led me to burning out? what helped you when I was burnt out, what didn't help me when I was burned out, and what helped me to recover. Thank you. And yeah, sometimes I think we can tell a story with more conviction and with more resonance when we do weave in our own personal story, really.

And it kind of really shows that we are even more credible because we've got the professional and the personal insights. So of course, you know, whilst they say it, you don't have to, you know, be hit by a bus to know it hurts, it sure does help with the empathy. Thank you. And I'm kind of remembering something I read in the book, which felt like really quite powerful about something that should have been kind of really fun. And actually Emma on a more resourced time in her life might have found it really fun.

But it was a weekend away with your friends where it really came to fruition. Would you mind guiding us through that story, Emma? I guess I'd probably been burned out for a while, but I'm a very busy person. I was working in the NHS, I was writing books, I was parenting and doing lots of other things. And I have a coping style, which has worked for me throughout my life of keeping on going and persevering. Just get to the end of this, get it done, and then you can relax. So I kept on going, persevering, kept on getting through the next thing and the next thing. But the things were increasing hugely.

So I'd probably be, well, I had been burnt out for a while and it's very obvious in hindsight looking back. But my friends, I may usually arrange a trip around about January, February in the year. And this time, I think there were still restrictions. So we decided to go to Edinburgh, beautiful city. Highly recommend for anybody to go to Edinburgh. It's absolutely stunning city. And these are some of my oldest friends also from psychology degrees, you know, caring, kind, passionate people. And I debated whether I should go because I knew I was exhausted.

And I thought, will I benefit from this or not? Or will I enjoy it? But also there was an element of can I contribute to this or not? Because, you know, I don't feel like myself right now. I feel like I've lost my sense of humour. I feel like I'm not quite me and not Emma that I normally am. so, you know, will I be, you know, they're not going to be getting Emma as she normally is. So my husband said, look, you know, it's a great thing.

You love going to see them. You love going away with them. So just go. I said go. I said go. You know, you're right. Let's go. So I did go. And it was a lovely weekend in many ways.

But it was also, you know, doing things that hadn't been doing much for a while. So going out socialising. None of us had been doing for a long time because of the pandemic. But going out socialising a night. drinking, we're out for meals, walking lots around the beautiful city of Edinburgh to have a look. In general, it should have been a really, really beautiful, pleasant weekend. And then the first night we went out, we had a nice meal, the second day we wandered around the city. The third day we decided, or the second night, sorry, we decided to stay at, in the, we had a beautiful

flat in Edinburgh and we decided to stay at home and just have a few drinks and a chat. And we're having a chat. And then out of seemingly nowhere, I got up and left the room. And we've been, I can't even remember what we've been talking about. It was something really innocuous, you know, quite interesting conversation. But something just hit me. And I got up and left the room.

And my friends were kind of like, what's you doing? And I was also thinking, what am I doing? And I just started shaking. It was effectively, the way I described in the book, it was ostensibly a shock reaction with nothing to be shocked. about. But obviously, I think, you know, what had been happening is I had so little resources left. And this is just pushing me over the edge. It's like my capacity cup was full. And I had so little level left. I was about to overflow. And having been, you know, in people's company for two

days now, walking lots, drinking, tired. Also probably for me not having my own space, because I like having my own space, all this tiny little things, which otherwise would have been really enjoyable, just pushed me over the edge. And I guess it was my body saying, Emma, stop. You need to stop. Stop ignoring me.

You've been ignoring me for too long. You can't ignore me anymore. So that was the, what should have been a wonderful weekend in Edinburgh became the point where I was like, okay, we need some action here. something needs to happen. Yeah, absolutely. It's making me think about when I was an early career psychologist myself and I was working with older adults, many of them would talk about having had

a breakdown and really that led me to think, well, what is that? And it was only as my career progressed that I thought, I can't seem to find like a diagnosis of a breakdown. Like it, it doesn't seem to be a thing, but I'm aware that actually burnout is now in the ICD-11, I think I'm right in saying as an occupational kind of syndrome. But of course, burnout can go among, you know, all of our roles. You know, I'm a mother. I run a business. I'm a wife. You know, I'm a creator. And so, you know, you can burn out in many areas of your life, not just in, not just in your occupational. And yeah, I just, I know there's, I don't think there is an answer to, this isn't even any of a question. It's just an observation that actually we are now moving towards understanding

this more. And when we understand it more, We can validate people more and we can help them understand how to, I guess, ultimately, a gold standard prevented. But, you know, if it has happened, how to get the wheels back on and to do so in a way that de-shames people, empowers them. And does what you've shown us with your lovely matchman, which is to, you know, to regain power, achievement, sense of satisfaction and enjoyment. of life so that your flame is back aglow. Yeah, I think that's very interesting because I also kind of consider what is the term breakdown. I've considered that throughout my career. And I think often we apply it to circumstances when we're not sure what's going on and to try and make sense of it. But I also think it feeds

into something else, which is really critical for burnout, which is around shame. You know, I think often we internalise these things as being something about us. And And I think the same can be applied to the term breakdown. You know, something's happening. I have broken down. And there can be a degree of shame around that. And as a clinical psychologist, I'm not immune to that. In fact, I think there's almost an extra layer of shame that you come with a mental health professional.

Because not only do you have the normal societal shame, which is from, and I know where this comes from, thousands of years of beliefs about emotions and how they operate in mental health, which we really need to shift. and that's been our work, you know, for many years as clinical psychologist, trying to really update these beliefs with the science behind it. But I then think there's an extra layer of shame. And it's like, but I'm a clinical psychologist. I write books about this.

I tell people about this. And yet it still happened. Now, on an intellectual level, I absolutely know that there's nothing to be ashamed about. There is, you know, I fundamentally believe that anybody can experience mental health difficulties, and in fact, most people do. So most people, you know, and in fact, the research suggests that it's much rarer to stay mentally well throughout your life than experience poor mental health. So poor mental health at some point in your life is the norm.

That should be no surprise to anybody because poor physical health is the norm. And whether we separate these two is still something. we need to scientific we'll look at in future years. So that should be no surprise to anybody. But you can know something theoretically and you can feel something very differently because, you know, all those thousands of years about beliefs about mental health, emotions, they still impact on you despite knowing it theoretically. So I think, can I speak about this in the book? There's almost a, there's in fact a shame narrator throughout the book who I call shame and the idea is to externalise it from yourself. And shame,

says to me, what right do you have to tell people about this? You didn't exactly do it yourself. And that's an extra layer of shame. It's like you're a clinical psychologist who supports mental health, who writes books about mental health. This is at the heart of what you do. But yeah, you didn't do it. And I, but I think, you know, what would I say to somebody else? That's life. You know, these things happen because a complex mix of persons. context and everything that's going on for them. So you have to draw back and think what did lead to this. Be curious rather than shameful.

Stop and think, what contributed to this? Which elements do I need to recognise as things which I couldn't control? Which elements can I do something about? Which elements have I, which elements kind of recognise that I can't actually shift that? And that's really kind of what led me down that journey and stepping back and seeing, yeah, Shane's telling me this. Shane or shame speaks to everybody and particularly when our resources are low,

when our resources are depleted, they go into negativity overloads. So I describe it as a negative ninja takeover. The negative ninja is take over your brain, they're kicking at your brain, they're pushing hard. So it's much harder to override that when you are feeling depleted.

But it is really about stepping back and saying this is just a normal human experience and being a clinical psychologist probably does give you some extra protection about that, I guess, and some way because you do have the theory and knowledge that supports you in your life. And I do put those in place. But yet there still will be mixes of person context that lead to, you know, it impacts on you. It would be, you know, we would be robots if it didn't. Yeah, absolutely.

And that was kind of my thinking as you were speaking where. that I think we always need to empower ourselves to allow ourselves to be humans first. Yeah, absolutely. So of course you started off your journey as the psychology mum with, you know, with a pen in your hand. Am I right in thinking that there are diagrams, there are drawings, illustrations in your new book? Yes, absolutely. So that's how my brain works. It works visually. I like to bring concepts to life through visuals. So initially there weren't going to be illustrations in this book, but then I found it impossible to keep them out.

I was visualising what this looked like, so we agreed that there would be some images in this book. The slight difference to the previous books is it is black and white. That was a whole new learning process for me, trying to draw things in black and white. So there are visuals in this book because that's how I've always operated clinically and how I always operate in my books.

I just think it really helps bring the concepts to life. poses a bit of a challenge when you're trying to record the audio book, as I have been doing the last two days. But what I do in each book, so I have characters that go through the book, which almost bring psychological concepts to life. So you've seen the match. That's the representation of burnout, but you can relight your fire again. The classic one who appears in every book is my little brain character, so Brian the Brain. So this is, represents your brain because I really believe that understanding your brain and how it works, understanding, you know, the kind of biases,

the things that go on and why these things happen to us in terms of brain functioning can really help de-shame or de-stigmatise and help you understand kind of your human experience. So Brian the brain appears in every single book. And in this book, he appears to introduce a set of reflections. So reflections of you've, okay, you've read

this content, but how does that apply to you? What's your thoughts around this? So he guides us through the book. And then there are some other characters I can introduce. So my story about Edinburgh, nothing ostensibly happened that threw me over the edge. But what it was, if you look here, was a teeny tiny thing. So this is the teeny tiny thing. So the teeny tiny thing is that thing which makes you overwhelmed or your capacity overflow. I describe it that you might not understand this if you're not a child of the 80s and the 90s. So apologies for those that aren't. You might have to Google it. I describe it as the teeny tiny thing is a thing that makes your capacity cut overflow into cremola foam land. Do you know what cremola foam is? No, okay. I'm sure by age here.

So cremola foam was a drink from the 80s where you put some. powder into cup and you added water to it and you never got that quantity right. It all was overflowed. So the teeny tiny thing is a thing that your capacity is so full already and you might not notice it or your stress levels are so high is the tiny thing which pushes you into overwhelm land or Cremola foam capacity cup. So it's about recognising that thing in itself maybe is an issue because people can go, why did that happen? I mean it was a nothing but there's everything else that's going on underneath it that's creating the stress that's adding to your capacity that's already filling your cup to that level. I guess the modern kind of visualised image of that

would be putting a mento in the in a Coke bottle, right? A tiny thing leads to a big reaction. If only had thought of that before I wrote the book, that would have been much more modern and talking to this generation. But I didn't. And some of the final pictures in the book are my little snail here. So this snail appears throughout the book and it's remembering that you can still achieve by slowing down. Actually, you will achieve more longer term

if you pause regularly and you don't need to rush constantly to get there. You don't need to always keep on and get the thing done. You don't need to go on to the end and finish it off. And finally, my little tortoise. So it was very, very cute. So the tortoise appears in the book too again, plodding along, not going very fast, and enjoying life, looking around them and seeing what's happening there, rather than just looking to the future and constantly leading on to the next thing on a treadmill. So these little characters appear throughout the book in the illustrations and exercises, which are designed to really help you apply the theory, the science, to your own situation.

amazing and I think yeah that's when you've got something that you can visualize or that you can hold in mind visually I think it can be so powerful in helping those concepts to develop and I love that I love your story that actually this emerged originally in clinical practice and you saw that it really did seem to make a difference for actual clients and you were like I think I think we can do more here it's the true consultation model of psychology right like why do it? for one if you can do it for many. Emma, it sounds amazing. Who would you recommend this book is for? What sort of age? Are we talking adults here? Well, initially my books were published with the intention of using them with adults. But what I do know, and so yes, the book is for adults.

But what I do know is my books are used throughout schools, throughout, you know, primary schools, secondary schools, because children and teenagers engage with the visuals as well. And burnout is also, a elephant issue for adolescents. There's so much going on for them in the world. So I think the book could be used at any age, but might need adult facilitation to support with that, because I do know that teachers will build lessons around the book, lessons around the visuals. And I think this applies really nicely to this book as well. Okay, just before we have a think about where your books are available and when they're coming out and all of that stuff, I know that there was kind of a chapter that there just wasn't room for in your brand new book.

And it was something that we chatted about just before we hit record. And the impact, I guess, of maybe being the psychology mum and kind of showing up and the pressures of social media and technology, you were like, oh, that's something I'm actually still really passionate about. Could you talk to us a little bit about that, Emma? Sure. So I wrote a whole chapter on technology and burnout. And it's really interesting because that's actually what I'm. research as well. So it's a topic that I'm really passionate about. And I wrote too much for the entire

book. I wrote about 30,000 words far too much. I made myself a bigger job than I had to. So something had to go. And this was the obvious chapter that had to go. But it sat there and it felt uncomfortable with me because I think it's such an important topic. So what we decided to do is release it as a free e-book. So that is out there as a free e-book, which you will find via links on my page, or you can come over to my substack as well to find it and use that freely and download it. This was based on a further big question I should have mentioned previously. We released a free e-book during the pandemic to help people cope and that really was circulated all around the world. Ended up randomly with me meeting the Prime Minister,

which was very, very strange. Don't expect that to happen from this big, but hopefully it's of benefit to people because really my whole aim is to get stuff out there and get people to use it and improve their lives and for it to have an impact beneficially in their lives. So please come and find the free e-book around technology, social media and burnout. Amazing. What a brilliant and beautiful resource and what a great way of making sure that your work doesn't just kind of end up sitting in a filing cabinet somewhere. So well done to you and to your publishing team. So when people obviously are very keen to get hold of your brand new book, what is it called and where can they get it? So it is called the anti-burnout book and is available

in any book shop. And if it's not available, you can ask for it to be ordered or obviously any online book shop as well. Great. I'll make sure I put a link for that and for your other books in the show notes. And most importantly, just before we leave, we've spoken about your Instagram page, we've spoken about your social media. Where can people follow you and connect with you, Emma? So I am still on social media as at The Psychology Mum. I don't post too regularly. A bit of a clue if you read the free e-book, why that is. And Facebook is the same.

The free e-book is actually available via my substack, which is the Well-Being Society, and that's where it's available to download. So you can also find me there where I'll write longer form content as well. Perfect. Thank you so much for your time. I'm wishing you the very best with your new book baby and everything that comes thereafter. Do stay in touch.

Lovely to see you. Thank you, Marianne. Great to meet with you. Oh, thank you. Thank you so much for watching. Please do let us know in the comments if you've found this helpful. And if you read Dr Emma's book,

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