The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast - Understanding diabetes, resilience and loss with Mark Turnbull

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hi there, it's Marianne here. Before we dive into today's episode, I want to quickly let you know about something exciting that's happening right now. If you've ever wondered how to create income that works for you, rather than constantly trading your time for money, then you'll love the Race to Recurring Revenue Challenge with my business mentor, Lisa Johnson. This challenge is designed to help you build sustainable income streams. And whether you're an aspiring psychologist, a mental health professional, or in a completely different field,

Starting point is 00:00:32 the principles can work for you. There are also wonderful prizes to be won directly by Lisa herself. And if you join the challenge by my link, you can be in with a chance of winning a one-to-one hours coaching with me, Dr. Marianne Trent. Do you want to know more? Of course you do. Head to my link tree, Dr. Marianne Trent, or check out my social media channels, or send me a quick DM and I'll get you all the details. Right, let's get on with today's episode. In today's episode of the Aspiring Psychologist podcast, I am joined by Mark

Starting point is 00:01:05 Turnbull and we are discussing so many things that it might well be easier to tell you the things we're not covering. We are covering diabetes, being a slightly older applicant, being married, being a parent. We're talking motivational interviewing. We are talking so many useful themes. Stay tuned right to the end to get Mark's top tips for how to reduce burnout and how to be your most authentic self. Hi, welcome along to the Aspiring Psychologist podcast. I am Dr. Marianne Trent and I'm a qualified clinical psychologist. I am told many times by people that they are worried they might be too old or that they want to get qualified and then have children after training. And I often

Starting point is 00:02:00 respond in the same way, that there is no race, it's okay, it's all right to have a different start point to somebody else and that we all have different life experiences really which will affect our trajectory. But today we are talking with an incoming trainee clinical psychologist who has had quite a few adverse life experiences and who has so much useful stuff that we can learn from. And it was just such a pleasure speaking with him. And I hope you'll find it a really helpful listen. We would love to know what you think to this episode so please do let me know of any feedback that you have got. I'd also love it if you came and let me know in the free Facebook group which is the Aspiring Psychologist Community with Dr Marianne Trent. I will look forward to catching up with you on the other side. Hope you find this

Starting point is 00:03:05 useful. Hi, I just want to welcome along our guest for today, Mark Turnbull, who is an incoming trainee clinical psychologist. Welcome, Mark. Hello. Hi, thanks for having me. Oh, thanks for reaching out to me. You are another LinkedIn, a LinkedIn reacher outer. And we just sort of just chatting in the DMs, didn't't we so you'd contacted me to say how much you'd enjoyed the recent podcast episode with nikita um who's recently she's also an incoming trainee um but also to just highlight that other perspectives are equally as valid and that sometimes it we just take our own sweet time to get to the same destination and I really enjoyed our chats which have been voice voice notes largely um and yeah I said how about how about coming on

Starting point is 00:03:55 the podcast and talking to me and thankfully you were game yes um it's certainly a challenging experience applying for the DECLIN. And one thing I've taken from it is we can add to some of that extra pressure. And if you've got any questions, I'll be really honest about my experiences. And hopefully it can help lots of the other wonderful people thinking about applying next year with their journey. Thank you that's really really helpful and I want to quickly highlight some of the reasons why I was so keen to talk to you if that's okay. We may not have a chance to cover them all because i've got to go and pick my kids up from school in a bit um but you know just so that we can really think about

Starting point is 00:04:50 some of the issues that you've been um you know that we've been discussing is that you are um age 40 currently is that right yeah yeah i don't act it but technically the birth certificate does say 40 now, yes. You are a parent as well? Yes, I've got a lovely six-and-a-half-year-old, lovely daughter who's an absolute character. Yeah, she's a really big, big driver for me, yes. Amazing, amazing. Best job ever.

Starting point is 00:05:24 Things we worry about the most but um yeah you get a lot back um you also have diabetes type 1 diabetes yes so me and my wife got married 2015 looking forward to sort of a first year marriage um felt really ill beginning of the year. I actually did an article for the London Economic about Blue Monday because I was feeling really down in January. I was thinking about different reasons that could be. The dip from the wedding, not really having anything, you know, like that to think about that year. Turns out a big reason for feeling quite down

Starting point is 00:06:06 was I was becoming really ill with type 1 diabetes hadn't realized it yet and it was only when I started to crave water and sugar like a vampire and the pants were starting to sort of get really loose around the waist I thought I need to get to the doctors here actually so uh that was a big a big uh shock and a big fork in the road so to speak but one one I think's been quite helpful actually in a way for the declin process and you know where I am today absolutely we can learn a lot along the way um and your alarm is going off are you gonna be that is my diabetes alarm but i've taken on some sugar my sugars will be covered and sadly treating the hypo is not like poppy with the spinach it does take a little bit of time for

Starting point is 00:06:59 to kick in but i assure you i'll be okay. Okay and this is perhaps an interesting dynamic that might crop up in therapy from time to time as well how does how does that affect things? Sometimes in a very helpful way if you're thinking about engagement with a person I used to work in diabetes prevention again trying to learn from difficulties and my current job I work in bariatric psychology. So it's people living with obesity and it happens more often than you'd maybe hope it happens, but my alarm won't go off during the session. And I've got a treat or hypos, I'm sort of stood during the session

Starting point is 00:07:39 about thinking about food, regular eating and I'm eating sugary snacks. And this is medicinal, this is medicinal, but I think it can help with engagement and that idea about the person you're talking to is a real person with a real range of experiences. I try to use this as helpfully as I can. And when I was diagnosed, I was lying in the hospital bed thinking, you know, I applied some motivational interviewing sort of techniques thinking, I'm going to have to dance with this and not wrestle. And that was really helpful for coming to terms with accepting and understanding. So even when I got out of hospital the next day, luckily I had that psychology within me to utilise, but I was already on a path of trying to manage it

Starting point is 00:08:33 and get along with it. Obviously you have ups and downs with it, but it got to the point where when I was doing the Declan application, I didn't want to tick the box for disability confident. And my wife told us I was being stupid. And I took it to supervision. And without telling me I was being stupid, I think my supervisor was wondering similar. And I took it to Facebook. And you even might have commented on the Facebook page about it. But a lot of people didn't. Everybody unanimously said, tick that box, basically. So I listened to everybody and thought, hmm, what's going on there?

Starting point is 00:09:10 Am I being too positive and am I ignoring my own role in managing diabetes that has helped my health, but I have to help it to help my health? So I've got a helpful relationship with it I would say on the whole the thing is it's a major major life change it's a major impact and I've only really learned that from my hairdresser has diabetes and has it since she was a child but I've only really learned it as I've watched her become pregnant and have babies and actually it's a whole different not it's not a species but a whole different way of trying to manage your own health which is different than everybody else's health who isn't diabetic and actually it's really empowered her

Starting point is 00:09:59 to think about the benefit of really informed practitioners who are either themselves diabetic or have very, very relevant personal experience to carve out specialist roles, you know, and it might well be that there's psychologists, I think there are psychologists working in diabetes services, but there's, you know, that within healthcare, there is kind of diabetic informed practitioners to be able to work with that condition because it changes everything you know before I got to know her well I thought diabetes was about sugar um and it just isn't is it you know it's so complicated it's about everything it's about everything and it's about you know I think the monitors have have helped things a lot but it still affects every area of somebody's life yeah and I think from a psychology point of view and it's a

Starting point is 00:10:53 it's a core a core counseling skill and it's a fundamental but it's that ability for the health professional to really try to hear where somebody is and to be next to them because it's very easy and I know I've done it in the past and I'm really aware of that sort of roadblock within me but to make assumptions make conclusions you know it seems logical that somebody would want to do something for health but how often do people just listen to you should do this and go off and do it? People have different levels of activation, motivation, different priorities, different needs. I think it's really important to sort of recognize where where people are. Diabetes is a tricky thing because you are managing it every minute of every day. It's one of those unique conditions where once a person leaves a room,

Starting point is 00:11:51 they have a huge amount of responsibility potentially where the disease sort of goes. And I think people need to be respected with the challenge of that. And the more the psychologist or the nurse or whoever it is in the care team can meet the person where they are, the greater that person's got a chance of having a really helpful relationship with the health team, with managing a daily condition, that's, you know, for the rest of the life. I was lucky I had the psychology within me to call upon some of those

Starting point is 00:12:26 skills um but some people don't have those skills and the support around us it's better than what it used to be but it's tricky and it's challenging but i think with that adversity of that condition um plus some of my daughter's adversity i think I think it's trying to sort of reflect and notice how it impacts on you in a positive way, but also possibly, I'm a big fan of Leonard Cohen, and one of his lines is, there's a crack in everything, and that's how the light gets in, and I really keep that in my mind, you you know so even in those sort of dark moments is there potentially even if it's in the future or even small some form of crack of hope an opportunity where eventually if you can just get through the day just get through the day and just get through the day eventually that might grow into something

Starting point is 00:13:21 hence why I've worked in diabetes prevention and did really well delivering those sessions to patients hence why I think I've ended up at this time in my life being able to get on the declin I've probably answered a second question you've not even asked for haven't i sorry it's all right like honestly there's so many areas of of real that's going to sound really morbid but interest like you've you know you you've alluded to another difficulty there um that your daughter has got health conditions as well yeah yeah so my daughter was born with a just through she had she had bad luck, if you think about genetic conditions, there's a lot of luck in people being healthy, isn't there? As well as what people do when they're older, you need luck. A bit like running a car, things can happen. But yeah, she was born with a complex condition, a number of different issues, problems,

Starting point is 00:14:27 dozens of operations. She had her last one two years today. I was telling you about it earlier, which was essentially a gastric bypass. So on a four-year-old, in my interview for bariatric psychology, coming up to nearly two years ago, said that my daughter had a gastric bypass but i didn't tell them the context why it was only when i came off the phone i went how on earth did that land how did his daughter have a gastric bypass this is for people living with obesity so i sent an email when i got off at the job going can i just explain what i meant by that

Starting point is 00:15:03 what i was trying to say was i've got some experience from a personal point of view but about during the interview it didn't i didn't actually give the context but i think you know i'm not gonna lie it was absolutely brutal particularly the first year and for me again using psychology at that point there's no manual that says how to get through those times and I sort of remember thinking I'll get through each day and if it works for one day I'll try it the next day and if it doesn't I'll try something else and I know people talk about being mindful being in the moment there's times where you know what you want to be away from that actually and distraction could be the key thing you need to be a bit more present the next day and I think it's one of those things where if you get through the day that's a massive success but people did say to us things would get better at around four or five years. I mean, it took a gastric bypass for my daughter to start improving.

Starting point is 00:16:09 But you know what? It sort of did around the age of five. And through going to work and that adversity, I mean, there was times where I was like living in the hospital, like literally with my work stuff, clothes, leaving the ward, bye, I'm off to work, say bye to the nurses, coming back afterwards. And I look back now and I think, how and why did I do that? But in terms of training, in terms of being resilient, for me personally,

Starting point is 00:16:42 it was really helpful because it was always going to be a long haul this. It wasn't going to be a quick fix or anything like that. But it gave me a platform to grow in my career. So from the diabetes prevention work I did, I ended up working in a role where I was a team leader. I was training social workers on MI and CBT. I was a team leader I was training social workers on MI and CBT I was doing my casework with patients and had the biggest caseload and working with the most amount of GPs so in a in a way I sort of felt quite fit you know at work and um I'd written myself off again Again, I was telling you about my roadblock of ageism. I was writing myself off in terms of declin and felt the ship had sailed. I'd squandered my best chance of getting on in my 20s by just enjoying my 20s too much.

Starting point is 00:17:40 Somebody said to me, Mark, look at what you're doing at work every single week. I just stood back and thought, this is like working like a clinical psychologist. So I thought, I'm going to have another go. I'm going to apply. And, you know, I'm really, really grateful I did. Yeah, absolutely. And I think all of your future clients will be really grateful as well. And your cohort, they're going to be delighted to get to be part of your life and to benefit from your rich experience um and there's

Starting point is 00:18:11 further adversity to come in case everybody thinks oh that's surely enough that's enough um i'm yeah really sad to say that both of your both of your parents died when you were a child. Yeah, yeah. I hope people have tissues. I don't know. But no, I don't cry about it. And, you know, I've done my crying many, many years ago. It's something that has been so long ago now that it does have an impact,

Starting point is 00:18:42 but not like an acute uh problem these days and most of my life i've lived without my parents so it is something that i've gradually adjusted to i found it hard when i was a child obviously um in different ways once you know my mom died removed school i was very quiet uh all of a sudden from being really you know chatty in this new you know in a new school I was very quiet and I did my work and I was doing my work within a few minutes and I used work to distract myself from being in that environment after my mama died but I sort of realized I was fairly intelligent as well. So that became an unhelpful coping strategy in a way because I was also competitive.

Starting point is 00:19:29 So I wanted to be the quickest and the best at everything. And I still have that in me, but it's quieted down a little bit that competitive streak. But I went to high school, a 2,000-pupil school, just after my dad died. And that was really challenging because I'd moved back to Newcastle from the countryside, Northumberland, where my nana lived. And all of a sudden, I'm in the town again. And the people are slightly different compared to you know northumberland you know a lot more you know a lot more direct a lot more um so confident and you know brash i guess

Starting point is 00:20:18 at least on the surface and going to a 2000il school after your dad had died, it was really, really difficult, really tough. And I remember as an unhelpful behavioural strategy fighting a lot, you know, because I was so frightened that I thought if I lash out almost, like, it's going to keep me safe. But it didn't. It just got me more attention. So it was a really maladaptive thing uh with hindsight um but again it was trying to find like an identity for me

Starting point is 00:20:54 and i think that's probably why up until i became a 30 year old person living with my now wife i didn't have that identity i didn't have that stability in my life i probably didn't get it till me me and my wife moved in when i was 30 which at which point your pancreas decided to yeah exactly just just to just to give us another curveball but uh yeah i could be a charver i could be a swat i could be a sporty person i could be a class clown i was just so dysregulated and um although i did well at a levels well sorry i didn't do well at a levels i actually failed my psychology a level because i had further adversity around that time but the university took me on i got a 2.1 i did a master's i struggled with that but i was

Starting point is 00:21:38 so dysregulated through my 20s and you know if i did have a tip for people you know based on my own experience and I imagine this might be a minority thing but it's just check in on where your head and emotion is at that point because although in some ways I felt I was ready for Declan and good enough with hindsight my emotional intelligence my stability I just wasn't anywhere near it um hence why i'm a little bit old i get onto declan i think we get there when we're ready you know absolutely i believe that um but with my psychology head on i'm thinking gosh with the greatest deal of respect you could be one of my clients you know um absolutely there's there's enough experiences here that many other people not paying yet no it's fine you know many people

Starting point is 00:22:34 would have have really struggled with this along the way and would have faltered and it would be understandable given these nature of cumulative things that life got tricky but also with my psychologist head on I think gosh you must have some really you don't need to disclose them but you must have some really strong protective factors obviously your intelligence is one of them but there's you know we're always looking at well why isn't this a problem why isn't this as well as why is this why now but you know protective factors can do a great deal yeah i've got a i guess i've got a competitive pride like i mentioned earlier and um like a determination to i guess when you've had quite a lot of adversity one thing that may happen

Starting point is 00:23:20 eventually is you become familiar with it and you become aware that some of that adversity might sort of gradually chip away to some degree um through time but also that there might be things that we can do to to sort of heal from that adversity so it might still be there and it might still be with you but it could be further away it might not come out as often potentially or the trigger situations might be a bit more few and far between um but i mean my protective factor now is obviously you know my my family um but one one thing i didn't say about my dad was he was a competitive person and he had the opportunity to go to university to be a doctor like a medical doctor he didn't want to leave Newcastle and I mean in my wedding speech I did I did mention that and I did say I hope to you know follow in his footsteps so even though he

Starting point is 00:24:22 passed away coming up 30 years it's still a driver in me um but it's not just to make him proud i said this on father's day when i was at the crematorium but it's it's also to like in a jokingly way but get one up on him so he was competitive could have been a doctor and uh i'd be i'd be lying if i said like like you know but you know deep down he's going to be proud deep down he will be proud that I've done it but it is a little bit of competition getting one up on him because he's such a

Starting point is 00:24:53 talented man he really was but it has spurred me on and I know we've all got different reasons for wanting to get on the decline most of mine are obviously about psychology and what I want to do to, you know, assist people in difficulties and in distress. But I think being aware of your personal drivers is really important.

Starting point is 00:25:15 As one of your books, you know, reports, we've all got them. And again, Marianne, I know in your book, you talk about being in a lecture theater hearing about clinical psychology and somebody saying basically oh don't even bother essentially yep bingo i remember the same conversation sit you know same lecturer saying something very similar and me going i'll show you you know it's that competitiveness I guess possibly telling me not to do something I'll show you I'll get there then I'll like tell everyone about how you told me not to do it but I think you also um touch really nicely on on a grief issue there which is how

Starting point is 00:26:01 we can actually keep the presence of someone we loved with us in the present and have it be about continuing that relationship that never got a chance to reach its natural conclusion in longer life. And it's something I do with my dad as well. You know, I think about what would he say about that? What would he do about that? Or, you know, would I tease him about that? Yes, I would and it's really nice that you can still have that playful element even though your dad's not here yeah yeah yeah I agree it's something nobody ever taught me to do um

Starting point is 00:26:37 and if that's a helpful strategy that you share with some of your clients going through grief that's something that when I was like 11 or 12 um I I just sort of did and it helped me with sort of getting through different periods I used to um if I was struggling with motivation or something I used to sort of say like do it for me dad you'll do it for dad and that was something I would like sort of call upon to to spur me on as a coping strategy um and yeah it is something that's sort of call upon to spur me on as a coping strategy. And yeah, it is something that's sort of still in me, but it doesn't come out of these days like I needed it to when I was a teenager. I think probably in my 20s, actually, I forgot about that and didn't maybe call upon it enough.

Starting point is 00:27:23 Hence why I had such a good time at university and not enough uh studying and you know um yeah lack of emotional intelligence let's say but um you're right you get there when you're ready don't you and there's a lot of readiness we do all do slightly sillier things you know before we've got our full frontal lobes as well so you might be being slightly harsh on yourself, you know. We're supposed to be like playful adolescent monkeys, you know, going off to go and wrestle and have fun with our colleagues and friends. And, you know, coming into scrapes and then coming back into the fold in the evening and it's maybe you know I hope that you had a fold that felt safe and loving but your fold would have looked a little bit different than than the average 2.4 family would have done yeah yeah no yeah that's definitely

Starting point is 00:28:18 that's definitely the case I mean I am aware like during times, I still got A2 on, and I still managed to do a master's. I used my dad's inheritance to self-fund the master's. I expected to do it within a year. I didn't want to go to work when I finished my degree. Just do a few essays, do an assignment, dead easy. First paper back, this is a poor piece of work 35 you know oh big shock big shock this is going to be a lot lot bigger a lot more challenging but that just shows where my head was i was either too high or too low and um that's what i mean about checking in with sort of head

Starting point is 00:29:01 space and readiness and and just just sort of making sure that you know the situation around you feels stable enough you know like we might do with patients on the bariatric pathway is this the right time is this going to help you more than it's potentially going to hinder and um yeah yeah just just i guess know yourself as well as possible because we spend so much time thinking about the course, what the panel might be like, what to put on the form. But I know you talk about, you know, sort of self-compassion. You talk about, you know, kindness and patience quite often, but it's a neglected area potentially to somebody's preparation for this career.

Starting point is 00:29:50 Absolutely, absolutely. You've mentioned motivational interviewing quite a few times and I know that there might be some people listening to this who are thinking, oh, I should know what that is or maybe even earlier in their career and think I've not heard of that could you save people a google and explore explain briefly what motivational interviewing is and why it's so good yeah so motivational interviewing is a style of having a conversation with a person and it's not about, I think about it like this. So if you're trying to help your child into the water,

Starting point is 00:30:30 I'm totally nicking off Steve, roll Nicky up by the way, but you know, instead of like trying to push them in or to pull them in to change, to doing something, you're next to the person and you're using some uh conversational skills that essentially are from sort of Rogers and a person-centered way of working with someone um to really try to ask open questions find out what matters to them what's really important to them um you know so if you're thinking about blood sugar it might not be important for them at that moment to manage your blood sugar it might be important

Starting point is 00:31:10 to do something else but if you can have that conversation about what something else looks like you might be able to then trickle down no pun intended to something that could help them with thinking about their diabetes differently seeing how those two things fit together. So it's really a style of conversation I alluded to earlier that looks more like a dance with the patient. So I know when I'm talking to people, if it feels like it's getting tense, if it feels like it's getting difficult, and the answers are becoming short, I'll just sort of check in on that and just sort of

Starting point is 00:31:45 go back to how it's going but it's it's something you could use with other approaches so you can use it with like act you can use it with cft you can use it with cbt it's not something you you do on its own in my opinion it complements some of the other work um but finding out what really matters to the person what really matters to the person yeah and then you can use that to be the difference that makes a difference yeah yeah definitely there's lots of resources out there about motivational interviewing lovely thank you for filling in that gap because that's not something we've spoken about in the podcast so far so what are you hoping to gain from training

Starting point is 00:32:26 at risk of making you answer your declan cyphum all over again what are you hoping to gain from training or what are you looking forward to about these next three years so personally it it's felt like a recovery for me given the potential i had and the decisions I might have made that took me away from that and then some of the adversity that you know landed into our lives so it feels like you know it's a symbol of recovery from that and I'm I couldn't have done that without psychology because psychology over the last few years has helped me with that growth and that adversity and managing some of those difficulties. So for me, I'm looking forward to learning more about psychology, becoming a far more helpful, well-rounded practitioner. And the university I'm going to really encourages you to become the practitioner you want to become, which is

Starting point is 00:33:25 wonderful for me because I feel quite versatile and curious about different approaches. But I also hope that when it comes to retirement, how old will I be? 65, 70, who knows? I can look back on, you know, the next 30 years and sort of feel like I've made a contribution to psychology. So I don't just mean with the services I work into and the patients I meet. I'm really passionate. And I know this could be a cliche, but the systems, you know, so to use Dr. Kamara Jones's analogy of the dust factory producing loads of dust giving people masks to wear treating them for the condition you know the chest problems but

Starting point is 00:34:14 actually tackling the factory itself that's sort of where I hope my work takes me doing some work with people who are struggling with some of the difficulties, but doing something that really informs the societal, cultural community change. And if I train other people along the way, or supervise people along the way, who look back and say Mark's been a helpful influence, I'll take that at 70, if I get there.

Starting point is 00:34:44 I'll take that. I'll be quite happy with that. But I'm really excited because, you know, 20 years ago when me and you were in those lecture theatres hearing about clinical psychology and that sort of spark happened 20 years later, you know, four decades, 99, I started my A-levels. I'm just going to remember to be grounded, not too high or low, and to appreciate being on that course. There's going to be challenges.

Starting point is 00:35:11 There's going to be bumps. I'm going to ask for help. I'm going to put my hand up. And I'm going to do my best and really relish the opportunity. And I'm looking forward to the cohort itself. They seem really lovely from our social media conversations. I might be one of the older people, who knows, but I'm going to be enthusiastic and fun,

Starting point is 00:35:36 and hopefully people will not realise I'm 40 when this starts, unless we're watchers, obviously, because this gives it away. But I think there's so much i don't know i felt like 41 was a bit of a dodgy year for me for a variety of reasons but 40 i was just just loved life like i felt really vibrant my children were a little bit older i felt like i'd come out of the kind of grief dip that i'd been in and you know i just felt I felt really good. I was the healthiest probably I've ever been. Like, yeah, I felt like 40, it felt like a big deal. But actually when I got there, I was so proud to be 40 and, you know,

Starting point is 00:36:19 to be the product of my own experiences and all of the people that had shaped me along the way and um as i say that i'm mindful of sometimes people say is there like a limit to the number of um relevant experience roles you can put in on the declensi form having read yours i'm going to say no like yours went on for pages and pages and pages and pages and pages but you know all of those experiences we have with us and we take with our client sessions and with our parenting you know and I felt so proud to be 40 and I'm now 42 having recently turned 42 but to have all those experiences with me and to have that within the room with clients yeah it's trying to say it in a helpful way as a

Starting point is 00:37:06 strength and and to have that sort of you know brush of compassion to you know paint it in a helpful way but it's interesting you mentioned about experience and I would always go back to I know it says this in the guidance but the quality of experience so one benefit of my career path is I've had a couple of jobs where I'm working with people every single day Monday to Friday and I was able to do that for a period of a couple of years in one job and that for me was so helpful early on in my career so I would be supportive of people thinking about working in supported housing for a reason because just my experience, yeah, it was really helpful to see the wider determinants of health at play.

Starting point is 00:37:57 You know, you get to know people and you find out about their sort of life experience and adversities and you're able to sort of start mapping it out. And I didn't know I was formulating at that point, but that's what I was doing is I was taking in people's narratives and stories. But I think it gives you a really rich experience. And it's that lived experience that can really inform as much. I don't want to be too controversial and say more than a textbook or more than a lecture, but in terms of the colourful way of learning, watching somebody and getting to know somebody in front of your eyes

Starting point is 00:38:35 and having that honour to be in their lives is just so powerful and it really helped me become the person-centered person that I am you know working next to the person as an equal um and it's I've loved last few years seeing the NHS sort of catch up on that sort of spirit it's a long time coming but it's better late than never I guess um I would definitely echo that I think so I think i said in the clinpsite book i was a home carer for about a year or so i learned so much about dignity and respect and compassion and just being a really good human first as an intervention, you know. I use it every day.

Starting point is 00:39:29 You don't have to do psychology. You don't have to do psychology necessarily. If you just meet them in a very equal way and you listen and you're just there, that can be powerful. I think for me it's the treating people as important so um at the time I was working with um colleagues who would be very much trying to rush the jobs to get them done as quick as they could so they could get out the door and still claim their full wage and get home um and sometimes I would turn up to what was supposed to be double-handed jobs

Starting point is 00:40:02 and the client was already in bed because they'd done it themselves and that's like I was to time because if there was extra time if it was just to go in and you know make them a cup of tea and then check the doors locked call really for 15 minutes I would sit and massage their legs with cream because they looked a bit dry and they'd be like oh you sure you don't need to dash off and I was like no I've got I've got another seven minutes we can we can do whatever and sometimes they'd say will you just watch Coronation Street with me and I was like yes of course I will um because that's part of being human and I could almost see them like really puzzled. Why are you wanting to do this?

Starting point is 00:40:46 But it's because A, you matter to me, but B, I don't want to be in the nature of fraud. You know, if I've said I'm going to be here for 15 minutes, I'm damn well going to be here and I'm going to do your washing up and I'm going to change your bedsheets and I'm not just going to make you that cup of tea because you matter.

Starting point is 00:41:04 And I think that's what we get from relevant experience roles. Yeah, no, definitely, definitely. And you could have chose not to. But for you, your values, your character, you were very self-aware about how I would land, how I would feel. And yeah, you know, you give a damn, essentially. Yeah. That said, I've never lost more sleep than when it was my job to lock people's doors. Then I'd be like, all right, did I?

Starting point is 00:41:37 Did I put the key back in the key safe? Did I? Did I? Like, it's a lot of responsibility,'t it yeah i can imagine imagine right this is taking an unexpected turn but it all feels so deep and so rich and so i hope what feels useful inspiring and engaging for people um you've given us lots and lots of really great take home nuggets about reducing burnout on the way to, you know, doctorate courses. Have you got any other kind of parting words of wisdom? Yes, I think it's important. And I know you talk about patience and compassion, being authentic, you know, being yourself on the form. We're not looking to catch you out.

Starting point is 00:42:31 I couldn't say I do this and do that and do that when I've got a daughter with disabilities where what I do is a lot of extra work and support around her. So I think be authentic on that part of the form. I think regardless of the outcome, and I accept this is really, really challenging, but the fact that you're doing the application form, just take a bit of moment every now and again to recognise that you're doing that form and what that says about you as a person, as a practitioner,

Starting point is 00:43:04 and to really, yeah, just appreciate the enormity of it, I guess. And I think if you are feeling distress and difficulty while you're going through the form, my experience from talking to people is that the process doesn't half add to a lot of that. So it's nothing in you if so many people are feeling that that says something about the system the process itself so i think just you know being really kind take your time with it uh take breaks don't do too much work on it get four people maybe maximum to have a look at people

Starting point is 00:43:46 that you trust people that you know um be aware of too much social media but also too little it can be useful it can be helpful but get the amount of it right um pat yourself on the back and give you a cuddle like before i applied i would have loved to meet people who got on first time. And actually, I'd love to have conversations with people who got on three or four times. I'd love to hear about them as a personality. Yeah, just honestly, just, yeah. Incredible.

Starting point is 00:44:21 Just, yeah, just empower people to do what's authentic to them i'm really sorry but we are going to have to go because otherwise my kids are going to be uh put into wraparound child care but it's been the biggest privilege to speak to you and i feel like i can invite you back on for many many future episodes but wishing you the loveliest time on training there will be hard days you know you may even fail another assignment and that's okay it's it's all part of the process and many of us do i definitely failed one so um just be kind to yourself support yourself look after yourself really enjoy this summer as well you know i think it's a very special summer indeed where you're about to start your training

Starting point is 00:45:01 enjoy your family life enjoy not having any academic work to submit. Definitely. I'm going to take a break, give you a bit of a rest before it all costs the kickoff again. But best wishes to everybody listening and thinking about applying for next year. Really, really good luck.

Starting point is 00:45:18 Take care. And thanks, Mariam. Appreciate it. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you. Well, I am now back from the school run and i've also been to the supermarket to get some mushrooms and some bread but it is the same day that i spoke to mark and it was such a pleasure to speak to him um i'm sorry we didn't have a chance to properly

Starting point is 00:45:37 finish the episode as mindfully as i might have enjoyed but I did send him some voice notes with quite profusive thank yous so yeah I hope you found that really interesting if you have your own unique stories to tell that you think people in this audience of aspiring psychologists might well gain or learn something from then do please get in contact with me and let's see if we can sort out getting you on the podcast if you would welcome some more guided help and support to support your career aspirations, then do check out the Aspiring Psychologist membership. There's more information about that in the show notes or you can get it by clicking on any of the links in my social media bios. I'm Dr. Marianne Trent everywhere. Thank you so much for being part of my world.

Starting point is 00:46:27 We will have some compassionate Q&As coming up to support the next application season. I will find some space in my diary and communicate those dates to you as soon as I can. Be kind to yourselves and I'll look forward to catching up with you for the next episode, which is available for you from 6 a.m. on Monday. Take care. If you're looking to become a psychologist, then let this be your guide With this podcast at your side You'll be on your way to being qualified It's the Aspiring Psychologist Podcast

Starting point is 00:47:14 With Dr. Marianne Trent my name is Jana and I'm a trainee psychological well-being practitioner I read the clinical psychologist collective book I found it really interesting about all the different stories and how people got to become a clinical psychologist it just amazed me how many different routes there are to get there and there's no perfect way to become one and this kind of filled me of confidence that no I'm not doing it wrong and put less pressure on myself so if you're feeling a bit uneasy about becoming a clinical psychologist I'd definitely recommend this just to put yourself at ease and everything will be okay. But trust me you will not put the book down once you start.

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