The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast - What Do Occupational Psychologists Actually Do? Organisational Psychology

Episode Date: May 12, 2025

In this episode of The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast, Dr. Marianne Trent talks to Dr. Joe Grey, an experienced organisational psychologist, about what occupational and organisational psychologists actually do. We explore how occupational psychology helps to improve workplace wellbeing, support employees during major change, reduce burnout, and build proactive, psychologically safe cultures. Whether you’re an aspiring psychologist, a mental health professional, an HR specialist, or simply curious about workplace mental health, this episode will help you understand how evidence-based organisational psychology can transform the modern workplace. Plus, we discuss Dr. Joe Grey’s new book, Powering Workplace Proactivity. Subscribe for more episodes supporting your psychology career and mental health knowledge!Connect with Joe: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joannegray-theprogresslab/ and Check out Joe's Book: Powering Productivity: https://poweringproactivity.com Free 5-Day Challenge for Aspiring PsychologistsIn today’s pre-roll, I share an exciting opportunity: a completely free 5-Day Challenge designed to boost your confidence, clarity, and career direction as an aspiring psychologist. Starting Monday 12th May, each day you'll receive a short, live training session (15–20 minutes) with a practical activity that helps you take actionable steps toward your goals—whether you’re applying for Assistant Psychologist or DClinPsy roles or looking to get unstuck.What to Expect:Daily expert-led sessions with clear, practical stepsBite-sized mindset and career boosts you can implement immediatelyFlexible live sessions with replays available, so you never miss outComplimentary Space: Ready to take charge of your psychology career? Sign up Now via this link: https://gtps.kartra.com/page/5DC-Dr-Marianne Join us and let’s move forward together!Timestamps:00:00 – Episode introduction00:40 – Welcome back, Dr. Joe Grey!01:30 – Interest in occupational and organisational psychology02:10 – What is an organisational psychologist?03:00 – Evidence-based consultancy and gathering evidence04:00 – The consultancy cycle explained06:00 – Why working with qualified psychologists matters08:00 – Case Study 1: Supporting employees during organisational change15:00 – The role of communication during change20:00 – Case Study 2: Addressing employee burnout22:00 – Understanding job demands and resources theory30:00 – Participative wellbeing interventions34:00 – Case Study 3: Building a speak-up culture36:00 – Proactive behaviour at work40:00 – Psychological safety and its importance42:00 – Introduction to Dr. Joe Grey’s book: Powering Workplace Proactivity44:00 – Who the book is for and how to get it46:00 – Final thoughts and goodbyesLinks:📚 📲 Connect with Joe: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joannegray-theprogresslab/ and Check out Joe's Book: Powering Productivity: https://poweringproactivity.com🫶 To support me by donating to help cover my costs for the free resources I provide click here:

Just before we dive into today's episode, I wanted to let you know that I'm running a free 5-day challenge, which starts on Monday the 12th of May. You are so warmly invited to join us. It's designed to help you build your confidence, gain clarity and take practical steps forward in your psychology career journey. Whether you're applying for assistant psychologist roles, for the doctorate in clinical psychology, or just feeling a bit stuck. Each day there will be a short live training with me, just 15 to 20 minutes, plus a simple task

to help you move forward with more purpose and support. You can grab your complimentary space now via the link in the show notes, or on any of my social media links too. There's a link in the bio. I can't wait to see you there on the 12th of May. What does an occupational or organisational psychologist do and why is proactivity such an important psychological skill to nurture. In this episode, I am joined once again

by Dr. Jo Gray, who is an organisational psychologist. We explore how psychologists can facilitate meaningful change in workplaces and why proactivity, not just in ourselves, but in teams and systems is key to long-term success and wellbeing at work. If you're curious about different branches in psychology or you want to understand how to support growth and change in organisations, this one's for you.

Hi, welcome along to the Aspiring Psychologist podcast. I am Dr. Marianne Trent, a qualified clinical psychologist. It's so lovely to have you here. And we are welcoming back a previous guest today because the content has been really helpful and people have been reaching out to Joe and to myself. So with no further ado, let's dive in and say hello again to Joe.

Hi, I just want to welcome back a lovely face who's been with us before. It's Dr. Jo Gray. Welcome back, Jo. Thank you. So lovely to see you and be here. It really is lovely to see you. And I've invited you back

because there's been quite the appetite for occupational and organisational psychology since we first met. When we met, you were just coming to the end of your training. You are now qualified. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. It already feels like a long time ago but yes it wasn't that long ago. Yeah like life moves very quickly doesn't it? So if people want to know more about you and how we know

what the field of organizational occupational psychology is and your experiences they should definitely check out the previous episode, which will be linked in the show notes and in the description. But today is going to be a little bit different because I'm going to kind of hand over the reins to our expert organizational psychologist to set the context and to kind of talk us through what this episode's going to be like. So over to you, Jo. Yeah, well thank you and thanks for the opportunity to come back and also a privilege to see your lovely face again. So, and I thought obviously after having some discussions with you and having had some of your listeners and viewers reach out to me following the last episode. It does seem like there's an appetite to understand a little bit more about what organizational or occupational psychologists do. They are one in the same thing. It's linked to whether you're registered with the BPS or not.

So I will kind of interchange. I'll use organizational psychologists for the purposes of today. And what I thought would be helpful is maybe just outline, just like as a clinical psychologist, you have an approach to the way you work. I thought it might be helpful to kick off maybe just highlighting.

There's a lot of terminology around evidence-based practitioners. And I think it's a little bit of a buzzword that maybe would be helpful for people to understand a little bit more about what that means in the context of work psychology, psychology at work. So I thought I could talk to you about that. And then I thought we could maybe talk about some scenarios that might crop up the kinds

of work that I have been involved in or get involved in or some of my colleagues get involved in just to highlight some of the tools my colleagues get involved in, just to highlight some of the tools and the processes that we would tend to draw on if that's helpful and then I would like the opportunity to tell you a little bit about my upcoming book. Oh that sounds all amazing and it is not brand new information because as you said we've already discussed this but I love that and I love that you've come with such enthusiasm for this. So we have already had a think about kind of some case studies and we will come on to those, but please do go ahead. Yeah, I thought, as I said, I thought before we got

into scenarios, it would be helpful just to kind of set out some of the basic principles, because I think there is also this kind of, yeah, organizational circle, occupational circle, what even is that? An evidence-based practitioner. So I thought it'd be helpful because I would describe myself as an evidence-based practitioner and consultant. So what does that even mean? And it really is about how we approach our work. And when it comes to client work, so we'll talk about these scenarios in a minute, but when a client comes with something they want help with, then I would tend to use what we call the consultancy cycle.

And that essentially involves starting off, having the conversation, trying to understand what their needs are and doing what we call contracting, setting some expectations about what's within our gift or scope of influence, what we can do, some of the really basic things as an independent practitioner, you know, how much you charge, how long do things take, the kind of processes involved. So it's, I mean, it is the contracting piece. So you set off with a relationship that's there's no room for ambiguity,

which is really important, right? That's the kind of first stage. Then once we've agreed there's work to do together, we get into what we call the information gathering stage. And that's where, when you hear about evidence-based practice, this is that we're gathering information from multiple sources. So if you're my client and you come to me with a problem,

I'm not going to just take your word for that, sorry. I'm going to want to do a little bit more digging around. Want to come in, maybe make some observations. And again, I know you do that in a clinical sense, you know, you work with a client, but you're going to want to gather context. Also draw on personal experience, which I have quite a bit of. Also looking at the academic literature, which can be really helpful, but we need to know sometimes that has its limitations, depending on what the setting of the study was, you know,

we need to be careful about saying research says, but actually, if there's several studies in the same setting that you find yourself in, then you can start to say, oh, okay, there's some, there's some evidence here, there's some interventions here, there's some theories here that could be relevant. And so with all of that information, you're then in a position to start making some plans, recommendations, so you formulate, get the client sign off,

and then obviously start to deliver those and importantly reflect on it as you're going through, report on it, and then do a thorough evaluation to show that this was worth doing. It worked. People want to see a return on investment. So that's what we describe is the consultancy cycle. Does that make sense? It does and it sounds exciting and because I'm excited about lots of things, I'm like, oh yes, I'd like to do that. And I know that that is a nice trait, but also can be problematic in organisations as well. And we might well cover that later too. But yes, it sounds amazing, Jo, thank you.

And it is. It's a rigorous approach. And sometimes people might want to cut corners. I would say, you know, it's a proven sort of structure that works well. I'll just quickly delve into this information gathering piece, because this is when you can also then start drawing on other frameworks. I've previously used this approach that we call design thinking to organisational interventions. Again, it's your thinking in different stages.

I've got my own take on this. So design thinking is all about, you know, understand what the problem is, figuring out what your options are with the evidence you've got and then creating plans and launching them. So I've created my own version of that called the Progress Formula,

because my consultancy is called the Progress Lab, although I do a lot of work within proactive behavior, but and I call it the progress formula and it's five P's and it's about probing, probing the problem, problem identification, processing the possibilities, creating purposeful plans, propagating. So you know, getting them out there by bringing people on board. So participating within, you know, getting participation, and by bringing people on board. So participating with them, you know, getting participation and then proofing is the evaluation.

So that's all the kind of technical jargon out of the way but I think that just gives you a sense of, I guess, why working with a qualified occupational psychologist, organizational psychologist might give you a slightly different experience to someone who's maybe not got that training and background. Absolutely. And this is why it's really important to work with people with the appropriate qualifications. I understand that you are not registered with the HCPC because you didn't do a psychology undergrad, but you are still, you still have the professional qualifications. And so I think for me, that's a bit of a learning point as well, is that people might be having the right qualification, but they might, they may be good and important reasons why they're not registered

with the HCPC. So I've learned something there too, Jo. There you go. There you go. So our first case study is looking at supporting employees during organisational change. So the context for that, a large financial services organisation is undergoing a major restructure due to a merger. The company is consolidating departments, leading to role changes, job uncertainty and potential layoffs.

Employees are anxious about their future and HR is concerned about a decline in morale and performance. So let's take a look at the challenges here. There's discomfort around the change. Employees exhibit low engagement and cooperation, delaying the implementation of new processes. Communication issues, a lack of transparent communication leads to rumors and misinformation. And lastly trust perceptions, uncertainty makes employees hesitant to share ideas or collaborate effectively. Alright so that's our first little case study or vignette and I think these can be really

helpful approaches to really help people get an understanding of what work would an occupational organization or psychologist do? Could you give us a brief overview of what you would do in this example? Yeah and I like this example for several reasons. One, it happens fairly frequently, lots of organisations, particularly in the current sign of economic socio-political context as organisations merge, they have for a long time. And I've worked in organisations when I worked almost 20 years in corporate roles and experienced the merge situation several times. So I've got that first-hand experience, not altogether positive, if I'm honest.

So that was one of, you know, I'm always motivated by how you can do things differently. So I've got that first-hand experience and it is really difficult for employees. And when I talk employees, I'm talking everybody, really difficult for everybody. And for managers, for leaders, everybody in the organization, it can be really difficult. I've worked with various scenarios like this, and it kind of depends what's needed at the time. But there's various things that you might get involved with. So, I mean, a strategic level, if I was brought in at a strategic level, if we're really still trying to figure out what these changes meant for the sort of the organisational design, then we might get involved at that level. And that might be, you know, again, looking at the

evidence around change, change management, organisational design, and job design. So in previous work that I've done, I have looked at different frameworks. There's actually probably not surprising to you, there is so many different frameworks on what good organisational change should look like. Yet, interestingly, some really outdated frameworks are still being used. This is one of the frustrations sometimes in our work that there's almost that face validity of some frameworks, even though we're kind of like that was developed in the 80s and 90s and things have changed. So there's quite a lot of change frameworks out there that get used often but actually aren't in my opinion the best.

And I actually did a project when I was going through my professional doctorate where I did a project that involved a change and I actually did a little light touch review of all the different change frameworks and almost tried to do, tried to get to taking the best from to come up with something really good. So I do have a little adapted version and process for how you therefore help an organization go through some of the change. Communication tends to be one of the biggest issues in organizations when they're going through change, whether it's the what they're communicating, how they're communicating, the frequency in which they're communicating or not. So communication tends to be something that we might get involved in helping the senior team communicate the vision and be able to bring people on with them.

I've also done work previously where actually if the organisation's looking for employees to actually participate in giving their perspectives on things, I'd really advocate. So, you know, running focus groups, trying to do some kind of appreciative inquiry, what is good about, you know, what's currently here, what would you absolutely want to keep in a new version of this organisation? So actually conducting some qualitative research, getting that participation, that helps people with what we call change readiness. So you're bringing people on the journey rather than coming from the top here,

this is what we're doing and everyone goes, why would you do that? Doesn't make sense. So trying to combine that kind of bottom up and top down approach to change. Yeah, that sounds really good. And it's kind of forefront in my mind anyway today, because when I was eating my lunch, we're recording on the day where the news broke that WH Smith is going to be only focusing on its travel and airport shops. It's going to be disappearing

from the high street and it's being bought out by someone else. And so as you were speaking, I was thinking, well, this is going to happen to so many people across the UK that are currently working for WH Smith and presumably will be two-ped into this new organization. But actually, the WH Smith brand has been on the high street for over 200 years. It's very, it's very, you know, embedded in UK culture. And, you know, that that will run through the organisation. And they made it clear to say that actually, the shops are still doing well. It's just that they really want to see themselves pivoting to be a travel retail brand, which is not the same kind of as as on high street presence is it? Yeah and you know I guess they're evolving to the needs of the consumer

and to the stakeholders to a certain degree so and some of these changes can be difficult for people to process so one of the other things that I do a lot actually is organizations going through significant changes is more of a kind of learning and development type initiative. So whether that be helping at an individual level, build some resilience, build some coping strategies for navigating change, because change is tricky, right? You know, even I'm someone who really leans into it. But some things, you know, particularly if you really enjoy your job and the way things are structured, and the colleagues, you know, that feels like a loss, if that's going to change. You know, it can create a real, you know, emotional response, and it's

difficult for people. So we do a lot of work at that individual level, but also helping leaders and managers be able to support their teams in navigating some of those changes is really important. And actually, I mean, one thing I always say when I'm working with leaders and managers is you've also got to put your own oxygen mask on first because you are also going through this change and you're supporting others. You're trying to be the best manager you can be. You're soaking up some of that emotional contagion and you're trying to remain positive and motivated and driven when you yourself are experiencing some of those feelings. So it can be a really tricky time. But there are again lots of things, lots of strategies that we can encourage people to think about and work out what's going to what the primary emotions are when we see a secondary

activity like anger or kind of fear, you know, there'll be a very good and important reason that probably comes first. And it seems like what you do as an occupational, organizational psychologist is, is to kind of support everybody so that it feels less us versus them and kind of we're in it together. it together and we're trying to find a way that the honours and respects everybody in this organisation, not just those at the top. Yeah, yeah for sure. And I think that's what a lot of the work I would do reminds the senior leaders and decision makers that actually if you want to create a culture of change, you need to bring people

on the journey with you. People do not like feeling done to. Yeah, and that's where then this whole participation and, you know, involving, you know, whether it's focus groups, improvement groups, getting people and listening to them, and being honest about what you can respond to and being honest about what you can and fulfilling that. So again, communication comes back. It's at the heart of it. And I always say when the communication breaks down, unfortunately, you've got to have a problem. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Thank you, Jo. Let's go on to our second case study. Our second one is addressing issues around employee burnout.

The context is an HR professional in a pharmaceutical company notices a significant rise in absenteeism and turnover among employees in operations. Employee Assistance Programme, EAP, data reveals an increase in stress related claims. Employees report feeling overwhelmed, emotionally drained and disengaged. Our challenges are reduced productivity, staff are mentally and physically exhausted, affecting their performance. Increased turnover, this is driving higher attrition, putting additional strain on remaining employees and low morale. Employees feel undervalued and unsupported, creating a negative workplace atmosphere. Okay, so what are you doing in that case?

And again, sadly, this is not unusual. We are seeing more of this. Interestingly, when I did my master's dissertation in 2018, my topic was around wellbeing at work. And at that time, burnout was, I think it was the second or even third reason for long-term sickness absence. Muscular skeletal was absolutely by quite a difference at the top. That has changed in the UK in the last couple of years with burnout now at the top.

So there is obviously some things going on, there are things going on that are contributing to that, and this is a reality for people. Just so we're really clear on burnout, when we talk about burnout within work context, it is that it's exhaustion. It's by being exhausted, we're not thinking as well. So cognitive impairment, when I know what I'm like on sleep deprivation,

emotionally unstable, so emotional impairment. And actually that combination starts to make you withdraw, distance, kind of, you know, we become more cynical, apathetic, that kind of thing. And again, you probably see some of this in your work, but you know, there's some overlaps. And as I said, we're seeing more of it, particularly in roles where there

are what feels like intolerable demands. I'm really interested in this one today because I was at a fabulous workshop, well, conference last week of a conference like no other. It was in Holland and it was celebrating a theory that we use a lot in workplace wellbeing called the job demands resources theory. It was inspired by Eva Demaruti and built on with her supervisor at the time Wilma, Jofeli, Arnold Backe, these are really big names in organisational psychology. And that theory was developed 25 years ago. So we were at this festival last week celebrating the knowledge that has developed over the last 25 years relating to this theory. And when I talk to people about it, the best way to

describe it is imagine you've got a set of of weighing scales and you've got all of your job demands weighing you down on one side, workload, pressure, you know, colleagues, all that kind of thing, relationships if they're not going well, although these are all demands. And then the other side, you've got your resources and the idea, so when we have good relationships with our colleagues, we've got support from our line managers, leaders, all that enriching stuff, the idea is if we've got it in equilibrium, we're going to be feeling okay. If the demands are just completely outweighing the resources available, we're going to be on that one-way ticket to burnout. Interestingly, if we've got too many resources and they're outweighing the

demand, that's when we actually get a bit bored. So there is a balance to achieve. So that's a really good theory to try and draw on, to so often use that to try and understand, you know, what are people's demands and what are the resources and is there a misbalance here. What was also really inspiring and I can't give too much on this because I haven't done enough analysis of it since last week but so Wilma Shafeli who decades and decades of experience in stress and burnout at work has recently created a new diagnostic for measuring burnout. It's called the Burnout Assess... I think it's short for BAT, so Burnout Assessment Tool. So that's a new diagnostic that actually, again, recognising that the original burnout instrument was developed decades ago. There's some limitations to it. So there's a new burnout assessment tool that I would certainly look to use as part of the information gathering. I draw on the job designs to try

and get to what's going on here, then start to do qualitative interviews, try and find out what was driving the excessive demands potentially. And once we kind of have that information, then it's about trying to design interventions. And when it comes to well-being interventions I would always take the participation route for well-being interventions. People who work in the organization know what they need. So getting them and there was another brilliant psychologist who I'm sadly is no longer with us, Corinna Nielsen from Sheffield University, who did brilliant work around wellbeing interventions using participative techniques, getting people on board.

So that would be something I would also definitely advocate. And then start to look at some of the job design. So again, another academic hero for me is Sharon Parker. Her work on proactive behavior is one of my inspirations, but she's also done a lot of work in work design and has a really great framework called the Smart Work Design and it really brings in how are we making creating healthy sustainable jobs. So that these are just some of the things I tap into. Amazing and you know it's really lovely

to hear about the people that inspired you. But let's not forget that for many people, Dr. Joe Gray was going to be, is going to be a real inspiration, you know, and the first occupational and organisational psychologist they will have heard of might well have been from this podcast. It might be this one they're watching right now. And there might be organisations themselves watching this thinking why do we need an organisational psychologist and you're demonstrating beautifully why they need that occupational or organisational psychologist. So I think you are certainly one to watch as well, Jo. Before we think about exactly why with your book that's coming out, shall we have a look at our third case study?

Yeah! So supporting organisations to promote a speak up culture. What's the context? The leadership team in a mid-sized software development company known for its cutting-edge products has noticed that employees are increasingly reluctant to speak up in meetings, share ideas or raise concerns. Leadership has observed that innovation and problem solving have slowed and there's growing frustration among managers who feel disconnected from their teams. What are the challenges? We've got disengagement among employees leading to a lack of accountability and impacting on team dynamics

and the organization is at risk of losing its competitive edge and impact on future sustainability. Okay Jo, this last one is over to you. And this one really speaks to my area of expertise, proactive behavior at work. So speaking up is what we describe as a proactive behaviour, proactive behaviour self-initiated in order to change the current situation or the environment. So if you think about speaking up, I'm speaking up because I want something to change. Or if we're speaking up and it's around innovation, I'm speaking up because I want to create something. So that idea of creating a speak up culture, it can be to highlight kind of issues within an organization.

You might speak up if there's some bad behavior being experienced, that's one form of speaking up. But speaking up around improvement ideas, innovation, all that kind of thing, that's also a speaking up type of behaviour. So speaking up comes in various different guises. And I guess it's important if you're, you know, because again, you know, a lot of buzzwords about, oh yeah, we want to create a speak up culture.

Be really clear. What is it? Why is that important? And why are you trying to do it? And if you are trying to create a speak up culture, then you absolutely need to make sure that the environment is safe for people to speak up. So this really does speak to a lot of my own work. So a bit of some shameless plugging here. But so one of the things I have designed, so I've got a new website, which is called poweringproactivity.com, and I've created what's called the Proactivity Pulse. And that is a short diagnostic that asks questions to almost determine which proactive behaviors

are in evidence or not within your organization. And there's kind of six key proactive behaviors that I've identified that organizations tend to appreciate value, speaking up will be one of them. So I would probably be asking some of those questions from the speaker, you know, I probably to be fair, I probably asked someone to do the whole pulse. And I've designed it in a way that actually you could get a whole team to do it. And then I can aggregate and, you know, come back with a scores for the whole

organisation. So there's, there's that option. And that would then pinpoint, yeah, okay, actually it's speaking up maybe and innovative behaviour. What, what sort of causing that? So once we've got the diagnosis, then it's trying to understand what might be driving it. And that's where my book is premised on the proactive work design framework. So it's a nine dimensional model using the word proactive, and there are nine factors to consider. And the idea is that if you get those nine, if you based on the evidence that's out there, if you are doing those nine things, the chances are you're going to have a pretty empowered workforce.

But if some of those are lacking, then it can have a real impact on certain proactive behaviours. So if people do not feel safe to speak up, guess what? They're going to be silent. So imagine you've probably heard there's quite a lot of psychological safety gets banded around quite a bit. Again, if you're on LinkedIn, quite often, this idea of psychological safety, and it really is premised on the idea that the environment feels safe for people that they're not going to get, you know, told off or shut down or, you know, reprimanded. You see that in, you know, when they have wellbeing, employee surveys, don't they? And even in the NHS every year, there'll be a satisfaction survey. But then

there'll also be the meme of people being escorted out by security for really sharing what they think. And so it's exactly like you say, it doesn't feel psychologically safe to actually be honest about what it's like to work there. I think and I think, you know, there's a psychological safety and that's, and are people going to do something with that? Because sometimes, you know, I speak up, I'm not being heard. So, you know, there's also the idea of how we can kind of create influence, you know, help people to develop the skill to be able to be heard in a way that influences others and allows them to be heard. So yes, there's a few chapters in the book that I would say are very much linked to speaking up. But the idea and the way the book is premised is that you do that diagnostic.

And the things that you're already doing well, great. Don't worry too much about those. Let's try and work on the areas that probably need a little bit of attention. The other thing I have also recently worked on is I've created a kind of coaching framework around how to build confidence in speaking up. And I've used again, sorry, I'm a bit overuse of acronyms but it's called the safe framework and the S is for psychological safety so a little bit of a stretch PS but psychological safety, authenticity,

fairness and emotions and the idea there is one we need to be psychologically safe, like I just explained. But also to speak up, you need to feel authentic. You need to feel like you can be authentic. And again, sometimes in organizations, there are social norms, expectations, and people don't feel like they can be authentic. You need to feel authentic and true to your values to be able to speak up on things that are important to you. So it's the authenticity piece is about helping individuals build confidence to be true to themselves. So that's the kind of authenticity one. The fairness considerations, a lot of people speak up when things are unfair. Some of us have higher fairness barometers than

others, but most people will respond when they see something that's unfair. So it's about bringing to their attention. If this feels unfair, how can you therefore communicate that in a way that's authentic to you, that people will be willing to listen to. And then the last one is recognising that sometimes our emotions can get in the way of being heard. So how can we bring some kind of emotional regulation so that again we can be heard without people kind of, you know, dismissing us. So those are like techniques that you can coach someone to help build those areas of strength to give them the power to and confidence to speak up.

Amazing. And I do, I love all your acronyms. I love them. And it makes them, yeah, it makes them easier to remember, doesn't it? But also to kind of use to implement because you kind of can stick them up and then they catch you out. And I should, yeah, you do that. I

should do that. Use that. And I liked that you had your own five five P's model as well, because that's like a CBT thing, isn't it? But now obviously is a is an occupational psychologist thing as well. So we are sold on this as being really helpful. We are sold on you. And so we should be definitely checking out your brand new book, baby, shouldn't we, Jo? Tell us about your new book. So I've obviously been alluding to it already. So it's called Powering Workplace Proactivity, How to Create a future focus change oriented culture.

And it's recognising that proactive behaviours can be really helpful for organisations, but individuals may not always feel that the environment within their organisation is enabling or stimulating that behaviour. So I'm a big advocate of this kind of fix the environment before you try to fix the person. I think sometimes within psychology generally, we have a tendency to want to fix the person first and foremost.

And I think actually if the environment is right, then actually that might enable the person to thrive. They don't need fixing. So this idea of let's fix the environment first. And then if there's still, you know, there will still be individuals who for one reason or another lack confidence, lack, you know, the self-esteem and self-efficacy, you need to be proactive and, you know, might need a bit more hand holding. But let's just get the environment right first. And so that is what the book is about,

creating the environment, the culture, before we start just fixing people. And that really made me think about comparing and contrasting, for example, the NHS versus YouTube and Google as an employer. So I went to the YouTube offices earlier this year. And they have a free canteen, you might know this already, Joe, but they have a free canteen that's like buffet, amazing salads, soups, you know, kind of little Brazilian tapas and burgers and fresh

pastas and deliciousness. All the drinks, you drinks, all the puddings, all of that. And it's free for all employees if they're on site that day. They also have a rooftop terrace with barista made coffees with an ice cream fridge, all of that's free. You get access to the gym there. You also get massage credits that you get to use. You get so many massage credits a year. and then you can also buy extra massages. And I just think, you know what, that's a pretty cool culture.

Obviously, people will still choose to leave at some point in the future, of course, but I think it's about, for me, valuing your employees, you know, whereas when I was in the NHS, I once got a pair of fluffy socks as my Christmas bonus with one chocolate gold coin. And I actually said at the time, I would have rather had the two pounds it cost them to buy. And had they consulted us on what we wanted on our bonus, I don't think anybody would have said I'd like a pair of fluffy socks and a chocolate coin. So I

think, you know, I know that Google and NHS are not really comparable as an organisation. But, you know, it just that's what resonated with me when I heard you say what you said. Yeah. And I think, you know, it's also about the job design, you know, so the, you know, the perks around the edges, lovely, but it's about giving people opportunities to have meaningful work, regardless of what that role is. But, you know, they do feel that they're being heard and I'm contributing. So when we talk to people around, when they feel empowered, when they're being proactive, and it's wanted and valued, then they are, you know, pride, joy, energize. So we actually creating, you know, on that scales, I talked about earlier, yeah, proactive behavior, when welcomed can be a

resource, can also be a demand. Because if we're in an environment, where it's not welcome, and I'm pushing, it's like I'm hitting brick wall every time I come up with something, that becomes a demand. And that can actually lead people to burn out and leave. So there's a double edged, proactivity itself is double edged,

but when the environment is right for it and individuals can exercise it, that's when the magic happens. So that's kind of what I, that's what I want to do. I want to create workplaces where people feel they can go to work, contribute, feel like they're having it, you know, meaningful experiences, and someone's valuing it. And as a result, the organization's doing well. That's, that's my aim. You're all thriving together. You know, you're earning money in a way that feels like it's authentic

to you, makes you feel good. You've got joy in delivering that service that makes it feel like what you are delivering is being appreciated by everyone, by the clients, but also by the people around you. They're not undermining you. They're not jealous of you. They're not sniping at you. It actually feels like a joy to come to work and that is not impossible, it is possible for that to be the case and not just in a self-employed situation, that's not the only environment where you can love your job. Yes absolutely, 100%. Amazing. So who is the ideal client for your book, do you think, Jo? So, if you're a HR professional, for sure, if you're involved, anyone, HR professional, organisational development consultants, anyone who's in an organisation

and has an influence over how work is designed and the organization is designed. Leaders at any level, managers, anyone who has an influence in creating the culture, so do individuals, but it is leaders, managers, even coaches, because quite a lot of the interventions, so within the book I've got some little tools and some resources, and there are some coaching interventions so actually even if you are a coach who's interested in helping people and organizations leaders create those environments then it could also be helpful for them. Perfect and we are releasing this episode at the point where this is a brand new book baby you can go out and buy this now. Is Amazon the best place to go? Is it available in other places too?

It's available in all good outlets. If you go to my website, powerinproactivity.com, for a limited time there is a discount code that you can use at Routledge. So the publishers are Routledge. So Routledge.com, you can go there. And if you want to benefit from the discount code, go via my website. It's on Amazon, it's in Waterstones, and hopefully other reputable book outlets. Lovely. Thank you so much, Jo. And I believe that code is currently available until the end of June 2025. but there might well be future discount codes available. So please do go and check out Jo's website.

Jo, where's the best place for people to be able to connect with you, follow you, engage with your work? So LinkedIn, I would say, although I have got an Instagram page for Powering Proactivity, so you can find me on LinkedIn, Jo Gray, Instagram page for Powering Proactivity. So you can find me on LinkedIn, Joe Gray. But there's also Powering Proactivity has a LinkedIn page and a Instagram page. So yeah, you can you will find me one confusing thing is on the book. It's Joanne Gray. I to friends on Joe Gray with an E. I know that's confusing. But so if you can't find me, is your man great? It might be Joe great or vice versa.

Joe, thank you so much for your time today and coming back to speak with us. Wishing you the very best of luck with your brand new book, baby. Please do stay in contact and hope it really soars for you. Thank you so much. And thanks for having me. It's been a joy and pleasure. Oh, it really has been. Hope you have a lovely rest of your day. Thank you, Jo. Thank you. Oh, what an absolute treat it was to speak to Jo. Please, if you do think that you would find her work interesting, please do buy her brand new book, which is available right now.

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Dr. Marion's book, The Clinical Psychologist Collective, has been so helpful to me on this journey to becoming a clinical psychologist. As I plan to continue postgraduate studies in the UK, I found it extremely useful that this book provided in-depth information on the UK decline site application process. I enjoyed reading about the experiences of both qualified and trainee clinical psychologists. The various narratives were my favourite part of the book as everyone's story was different and it provided amazing insights into the clinical psychology journey. I would definitely recommend this book to anyone interested in psychology and aspires to become a clinical psychologist.