The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast - What is ISTDP? The Therapy That Transforms Emotional Healing

Episode Date: November 18, 2024

Show Notes for The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast Episode 154: What is ISTDP? The Therapy That Transforms Emotional HealingThis episode is a fascinating exploration of how ISTDP offers a pathway to deeply transformative emotional work, encouraging both clients and practitioners to unlock their potential. Dr. Marianne Trent dives deep into Intensive Short-Term Dynamic Psychotherapy (ISTDP) with Clinical Psychologist Dr. Suzanne Brown. They explore how ISTDP addresses underlying emotional conflicts to alleviate mental health challenges like anxiety and depression. Dr. Brown shares her journey with ISTDP, its transformative potential, and the profound impact it can have on emotional healing.Guest:• Dr. Suzanne Brown – Clinical Psychologist with extensive experience in ISTDP, sports psychology, and embodied therapy practices.Key Takeaways:• ISTDP’s Approach to Therapy: Understanding the significance of unconscious conflicts, feelings, and defenses that drive behaviours and impact mental health.• Two Key Triangles: Dr. Brown discusses the “triangle of person” and the “triangle of conflict” to map therapeutic progress.• Importance of Therapist Self-Work: Dr. Brown emphasises the necessity of therapists undergoing their own therapeutic work to offer authentic, effective support.• Emotional Fitness in Sport: How ISTDP principles apply to high-performance athletes, helping them manage emotions and improve focus.• ISTDP in Practice: Techniques like videotaping sessions for supervision to refine therapeutic skills and build self-awareness.Highlights:(00:00) – Introduction to ISTDP and today’s guest, Dr. Suzanne Brown.(01:46) – Dr. Brown’s background and career journey, including her work in sports psychology.(05:27) – Overview of ISTDP and the importance of addressing unconscious feelings and defences.(08:07) – Dr. Trent and Dr. Brown discuss their experiences with the ISTDP triangles and formulation in therapy.(12:35) – The role of trial therapy in ISTDP and working through compliance, defiance, and dependency.(17:17) – Dr. Brown on the importance of therapist authenticity and human connection.(22:04) – The role of personal therapy and supervision in a therapist's growth.(24:28) – Handling transference and countertransference with clients.(31:12) – How ISTDP techniques can help athletes manage stress and anxiety.(36:12) – Portrait exercises in ISTDP to help clients face intense feelings.(37:17) – Recommended resources for learning about ISTDP, including books and training opportunities.(40:31) – Closing thoughts from Dr. Brown on embodied therapy and upcoming workshops.Links:📲 Connect with Dr Suzanne Brown here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drsuzannebrown/ https://www.emotionallyconnected.co.uk/ https://www.instagram.com/emotionallyconnected/🖥️ Check out my brand new short courses for aspiring psychologists and mental health professionals here: https://www.goodthinkingpsychology.co.uk/short-courses🫶 To support me by donating to help cover my costs for the free resources I provide click here: https://the-aspiring-psychologist.captivate.fm/support📚 To check out The Clinical Psychologist...

Hi there, it's Marianne here. Before we dive into today's episode, I want to quickly let you know about something exciting that's happening right now. If you've ever wondered how to create income that works for you, rather than constantly trading your time for money, then you'll love the Race to Recurring Revenue Challenge with my business mentor, Lisa Johnson. This challenge is designed to help you build sustainable income streams. And whether you're an aspiring psychologist, a mental health professional, or in a completely different field,

the principles can work for you. There are also wonderful prizes to be won directly by Lisa herself. And if you join the challenge by my link, you can be in with a chance of winning a one-to-one hours coaching with me, Dr. Marianne Trent. Do you want to know more? Of course you do. Head to my link tree, Dr. Marianne Trent, or check out my social media channels, or send me a quick DM and I'll get you all the details. Right, let's get on with today's episode. Have you ever wondered why we avoid certain feelings even when they keep us stuck

in anxiety, depression or physical pain? In today's episode, we are exploring ISTDP, Intensive Short-Term Dynamic Psychotherapy with Dr. Suzanne Brown. This groundbreaking therapy dives deep and fast to break through the barriers holding us back from truly feeling our emotions. If you're curious about how ISTDP helps people face their fears, heal old wounds, and transform their lives, stay tuned because you won't want to miss this. Hi, welcome along. I'm Dr. Marianne Trent. I'm a qualified clinical psychologist. Thank you so much for being here. What an incredible episode we have lined up for you today. Dynamic therapy can get a bit of a bad reputation and I definitely think that it's one of the ones that makes people

think that you can read their minds when you meet them at parties. But today we're really having a close-up look at a modern dynamic therapy and frankly it's made me want to dive back headfirst into therapy to kind of explore what might be holding me back and how this might be affecting the relationships in my life. I would love to know how this resonates with you. What does this make you think about yourself? Please do drop me a comment, like, subscribe, share with your friends. Come and connect with me on socials too, where I'm Dr. Marianne Trent everywhere. I cannot wait for you to hear, to experience this episode. I will see you on the other side.

I just want to welcome along our guest for today Suzanne, Dr Suzanne should I say. Hi Suzanne. Hi Marianne, thank you. Thanks for being here. We've been trying to catch up for some time and to be fully honest with our audience we first met when you were a trainee and I was qualified in an adult mental health service so that's where we first crossed paths but our lives have moved in very different directions since then and you've been doing some really exciting work. Could you tell us a little bit about you and your background Suzanne? Yeah so yes we did we met almost about a decade ago I think it was. So following on from training I went on to do additional training in America so I would fly out four times a year to Boston

to train in a model called intensive short-term dynamic psychotherapy. And I was introduced to that on the training course actually, but I just kind of followed it and pursued it as an interest post-course and during it. And then very quickly after graduating, and actually, I think still whilst I was in training, I'd begun to liaise with a local football team, so Birmingham City Football Club. And then from there, it just kind of expanded. So I always tell people I kind of accidentally fell into sport. It was never an intention. I have family that work in sport, which is probably the link.

And yeah, so following on from that, I very quickly went into private practice from graduating immediately. Actually, I did part-time NHS for a year and part-time practice. And then I took a position with Arsenal Football Club, working with the women's team, the first team, and have worked around sports so various different sports since rugby hockey some olympian work transitioning in and out after the olympics supporting players whilst they are at the olympics primarily it's been football and so most recently i was setting up the psychology department for Sunderland men's first team

football club and yeah alongside that I guess I have maintained a private practice it's it's reopening now but have explored various different avenues and most recently and I would say returning much more to ancient methods of shamanic practice and sound healing and very much embodied practice of therapy so that's in a nutshell what's been happening in over the last decade oh amazing well you have been very very busy but also i've got a lot you've given yourself permission to do what excites and delights you and helps you get clinical results that really help people to thrive and I think that's admirable. Oh thank you I think the approach for me in terms of ISTDP my first introduction to it it was just

an instant recognition really I would say of this is what I think therapy should look like right like this is um it just spoke to me at a very deep heart and soul level so yeah I just I knew I had to pursue it and then I was fortunate enough to go to a conference where I met Patricia Coughlin who became my trainer and later mentor. And again, it was a very similar experience of I must train with this woman. You know, I just have to do it. So I have always, I think, supported that intuitive side and leaned into that and more so recently. Incredible. Could you give us a brief overview, if that's at all possible, about the approach and kind of what people could expect in a nutshell

from it okay so it's it is a psychodynamic approach so if we kind of just start with the assumption that we believe in the unconscious right so that actually the majority if not all of our behaviors are driven from this unconscious place that then tries to link these two very important triangles and i think this is really important if i if you know people could know about one thing for me it would be the two triangles so the triangle of person so when you're working in therapy with somebody you're holding in mind uh the therapist you're holding in mind the relationship then and how that links to their current life situation, who's in their current life orbit. And of course,

where that stems from. So the past is kind of the other part of that triangle. And then what you're then mapping that across to is the triangle of conflict so you're thinking about these underlying feelings that at some point we have learned or been introduced to very very early on and in some way these are forbidden we should not have these feelings they should not be expressed and they can include any any feelings so rage grief sexuality joy pride you know people can feel anxious about any of those feelings and so that's the other part so feelings anxiety it gives rise to anxiety when these feelings start to to rise and break through into the the surface or the consciousness of the person and then they employ many and we we employ defenses to defend against that so we all have defenses

they're part of our normal psychological development but often they've become very rigid very crippling to the person so it's different and it deviates from normal psychodynamic therapies or maybe psychoanalytic tradition in that it welcomes resistance and it works specifically with resistance we work with defenses and we see that they are interconnected with that anxiety so there's a kind of a central dynamic sequence that we will follow but of course it's for me it's the ultimate blend of kind of art and science coming together our sessions are videotaped so we can review the sessions in between to see what we're missing and obviously we take that for supervision so we can have our own blind spots explored. But of course you're always responding to the person in front

of you so your intervention is always built upon the last response from the person in front of you. So it's very in the moment, very experiential. Thank you. I actually did my sixth and final placement in a service offering that. And yeah, certainly the triangles is bringing me back to that, the hidden desires, hidden feelings and all the conflict yeah and I guess as an aspiring psychologist being able to formulate from a variety of perspectives is so important and I remember having to try and get my head around these triangles I think for my first ever placement my first ever adult placement and being like having the book on formulation from Johnston and Dallas and and trying to get my head around Milan and his triangles and

trying to make sense of it. But it's kind of, yeah, it develops. And I think being able to formulate like that really helped me think very deeply about the client. I'm feeling quite grateful that I didn't have to record my sessions, I think, as a trainee. Oh, that, yeah. I mean, I did actually on placement one one audio record some of my sessions you know it's all for learning isn't it it's all for our growth and for our clients protection and advancement in their therapy but it can make people feel quite uncomfortable I think it does ask of you to confront your own inner of course conflicts and I'm mindful like of using too much terminology but I guess that super ego part of ourself right our inner pathology our inner

our own inner parts that again if we would kind of use an IFS term our own inner parts that are more critical are more harsh and of course it is a process I think I actually did start recording during my training. And I think that is exactly what you were saying to the point of what has enabled me to confront that is this deep desire to actually be able to give the person in front of me the best treatment possible. So I have to be able to see my failings and see my own contributions and the things that I haven't been aware of and might be being enacted.

And since obviously learning this model, it's just such an incredible way to then receive supervision and to be able to give supervision to others that are willing because you really have the material in front of you. There is no kind of distortion of this is how I think it went, or this is what I'm taking from it. So yeah, but it is a process and an inner journey, I think, and my own inner critic and having to meet that. And over the years, actually, actually yeah I think work with that and mellow it itself. Yeah and does that make supervision a lengthier process than you might typically have? No so it would be traditionally still well we would work to a 50 minute supervision but actually sometimes you might show the first three minutes of your supervision tape and you would spend the whole 50 minutes on that.

Because actually, as we probably know, you know, that first opening gambit is so fully loaded, right? Often the person brings and I will start sessions without, you know, I'm not intervening. I'm waiting for the person to see what they're bringing. It's so full of material and content so we might just spend the first few minutes watching that other times you might jump through to a place of stuckness or you might jump through to this had an incredible effect and it you know we got a breakthrough and what did we do to get that? Because we want to maximize that. We don't just, it's not just looking at, right, what do I need to improve upon? It's what do I need to maximize?

What am I really good at that actually I need to lean into more? Because this has had a really great effect with this person. Absolutely. It's that tweak and refine, isn't it? Yeah, it reminds me of trying to almost have the intro session with a client beforehand and encouraging them to start the session because I think especially with kind of the fiduciary relationships of power people are used to deferring to the qualified psychologist or the position you know the person in charge and so for them to kind of be able to come in

and think that they can start wherever they want to does mean you sometimes have to work with silence, which can feel triggering, especially as a trainee or a junior member of staff, I think. Yeah. So the initial trial therapy is what we term it. And actually that is an extended session. So that will be three hours long typically so you're having a three hour long session with somebody now in that first part you are really asking what's the problems that bring you here because let's be honest people don't know people come to therapy often because there is some suffering and so what we're really getting

clear on within that three hours they're having an active exposure to the therapy first off, right? It's, this is a joint assessment. Am I going to be a good fit for you as a therapist? And are you responsive to the model, right? How are you responding to the interventions? But for me, so much of that early trial therapy is being able to look at aspects that you're talking about there with whether it be compliance or defiance or passivity versus being active. And even that initial question, you know, what's the problem that you would like my help with? It really opens up the person in front of you's experience to dependency right am i going to depend on you

and what has happened in my past with the people that i did depend on so you write into their attachment system as soon as they sit down opposite you really so yeah it's um so the first the first trial therapy would always ask that but and they would then be you know I suppose help to understand that subsequent sessions you are encouraged to be in the driver's seat because if I start the session we're working from my agenda and actually I'm here to help the person in front of me so I think there is a cognitive element to that because some people have never experienced therapy you do have to help them but mostly you know people have agency and they don't like to be overly controlled funnily enough we don't like that so yeah I think once once you're clear on that and the the task of therapy

and the goals of therapy and the the way that you're going to get there then you're really off and you're into it yeah absolutely I think it probably takes a bit of unschooling actually to kind of work in this therapy model because even when I was an assistant you know you're encouraged to to kind of plan and prep for the next session ahead of the next one and you might kind of go in with a session plan about what you're going to do but this is like the opposite of that. You know, you've spent your time perhaps formulating. I remember writing process notes, things like that.

But this is really seeing because you don't know what's happened in a client's life and what they've made of the previous session. And, you know, whether something's just, you know, blown up in their life or whether they've had that moment of breakthrough or clarity. So it's really allowing the client to be right where they're at then, not where they were last week. Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's such a good point because for me, and I know I've had supervision where I've then gone back into the next session thinking, right, this is how I'm going to intervene. These are the defenses that are in operation and I've got a different person in front of me. So all of a sudden, I'm relating

to a past version. And actually, that's caused a rupture. And so following supervision again, I've been able to go back in and say, hey, I'm really sorry. I was relating to past week you, and I was missing you. I wasn't attuning to you and that was just incredibly profound for this gentleman that I was working with you know he'd I don't think he'd ever had anyone say sorry to him right and take real ownership and accountability of I was missing you but I also do think a lot of this is about the therapist being willing to look at their own barriers to emotional closeness and some of that I'm not saying all of that because I appreciate the diversity of different models but some of

that can come from over preparation control bringing in a sheet in front because it's it's creating such a barrier to engaging and being open and available to the person that is just in front of you and can we connect human to human heart to heart soul to soul right it's weird that i've chosen to wear a black roll neck top today because i never i never wear black and i know traditionally kind of dynamic therapists would wear very plain colors they might have their hair tied back you know the room would be quite bland and you know not too distracting how does what you just said sounded quite human and a desire to actually connect as a person so that sounds very different than what what kind of people might be imagining about the kind of Freud approach to this yeah so I mean it it derives from Freud's second theory of anxiety, but Habib Davinloo was the person who really

took Freud's, I guess, he had an issue with this idea of analysis that was interminable, that would just continue on forever and said, actually, we don't just have to give way to the resistance. We actually need to be able to use the resistance to kind of get to a breakthrough. And he was influenced a lot by even like Eric Linderman's work of grief. So he had worked alongside him after the Coconut Grove fire disaster. And what he could see was that this external event gave rise to this intra-psychic crisis. And that is also at the heart of the the theory really behind istdp how can we facilitate the intra-psychic crisis so that the person can really be holding and and again that i love you know many different models i'm in my own jungian analysis so i can i can kind of think about it as

how can we hold the tension of the opposites of these things right like a part of me wanting something another part of me not but actually it's designed to to intensify that intra-psychic crisis within levels that are tolerable right we are tracking unconscious pathways of anxiety so that the person can actually get to the the core of the issue. So it's absolutely not just about symptom management. It is really trying to resolve this at the heart of it, right? Free the person from the suffering so that they don't want to, in Freud's terms, you know, the repetition compulsion, that we will find a way, you know, to continue to put the pain and suffering in our lives because we're not aware of it but it's you know the conferences that we we go to because obviously the material is filmed and i have such gratitude you know for the patients that are willing to share that material because it means

we can all learn is you know honestly some of the most heartfelt-filled, emotional material I've ever seen across training. And I like to kind of keep aware and abreast of other kind of modalities. But for me, it is completely about kind of heart-to-heart connection with the person in front of you. So very different from that blank slate, cold, perhaps, idea that you might be having if you hear about traditional psychoanalytic methods. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's interesting to reflect upon. And as you were talking about apologizing to the client for kind of missing them, I felt that kind of a visceral shift, like I felt them in my tummy. It's that connecting to another person and being seen as important, isn't it? And that you matter

and you can have an impact on the world and you can have an impact on me. And for people that have been stuck and conflicted and perhaps not had the nicest compassionate responsive care it's really really important to to let people know when you've got it wrong and that you're not perfect yeah absolutely and like the ability to be moved by another person you know I'm thinking of times where I will show emotion you know I will tear up I will have and it's not it's not in a way that the person then feels they have to take care of me or you know but in fact that has had such a profound impact on people and I remember in training actually with a woman where I had been moved to tears by her experiences and I remember

she came back and she said exactly that like I had an impact on you and and that had just kind of completely blown her away that she could that her experiences that her her you know really her suffering her pain could be felt and held and not not be overwhelming to somebody, but could just be acknowledged and seen. So I'm, you know, I'm very much, I encourage people to kind of be in touch with those emotions. It's very different, you know, if I was having a reaction that was perhaps something about my, you know, it has triggered something in me. Then yes, I would want to be taking that to my own therapy or supervision. But I think it's very different just to be able to be open enough to be touched, you know, at an emotional level. Because, you know, we work with the kind of the most intimate and deep emotions and feelings and experience of a person. So how could we not be in a way, you know, like, I'm kind of baffled,

how could we not be? Yeah, and I think I'm kind of baffled how could we not be yeah and I think the if our audience are kind of hearing this and thinking was that transference is that counter transference but actually you're being quite clear this is this is not your own stuff being triggered so for example if I was working with grief it might be making me think about having lost my dad but it's not that it's just being humanly moved by what you've been told you're moved for that person rather than moved for yourself it's like you know compassionate like you'd stop stop someone in the street and go are you okay you don't look okay it's it's that human connection yeah yeah absolutely and i it's

also why you know your own therapy in my, and supervision are essential so that you have really worked through and are continuing to work through all of our own, you know, relational patterns, our own disappointments, our own pains, our grief, you know, all of that because we are human too you know there's no difference there is no difference between me and the patient in front of me we've got our own experiences and I need a place just as much as they do of course but again so that I can offer the greatest care to them so there isn't some kind of counter-transference reaction going on. Or, and again, when there is, I can come back and say, this was my part to own in that. Or, you know, and I'm reflecting on that. And sometimes you can catch it beautifully in a session, right? You might be in the middle of what we would think about as a projective identification. And you're able to actually, again, you know, if your anxiety is regulated enough and you're able to actually again you know if your anxiety is regulated enough

you're able to have access to to kind of seeing what is going on and then be able to bring that into the session so oh I notice I'm really being pulled into feeling like a an angry school teacher and like I'm telling you off and what's going on here because that's not usually my response and they can then say yeah you know know, that's so true. And I find myself in that all the time. And then we're into something maybe about authority and a complex around that or a conflict. But to me, it is just, have we done enough work on ourselves

as psychologists as, you know, to be able to sit in front of another person and yeah, to hear their experiences and be truly moved by them yeah and i think still i think i'm right in saying that clinical psychology has no requirement for you to actually have done therapy of your own so during my training there was professional development groups which as was very well aligned and very harmonious and worked really really well in terms of development rather than just conflict that worked really well but the other half of the cohort had a very different experience it didn't feel safe it wasn't

it wasn't a properly you know what do they say form stormed normed group like it was not safe so it couldn't be used like that but counselling psychologists I think do have to have their own therapy and I think it's so important during my training I actually had analysis as well and still some of those kind of reflections realizations they've stayed with me the only thing I didn't like if I'm honest is having to pay for sessions when I was on annual leave even if it was planned months in advance. And the idea that my therapist would sit and talk or think about me in that session, that felt a little bit not very human, you know, because this wasn't the cheapest of

processes for me as a trainee. And I think it does have a tendency to be kind of quite consistent in terms of day of the week time of the week slot I found that hard as a user of the service. Were you able to bring it up in the therapy were you able to talk about it with them? Yeah it worked with some of my rage. Yeah exactly right and this is it it's just such a good opportunity like everything is an opportunity right and yeah I don't know I guess there's something in that initial contracting right like what are we contracting to and I just remember saying you know in that even like talking about dependency like I'm just so rageful that I need to be here in the first place and you know it really did it really kind of brought up my own dependency

and i'm like pretty self-sufficient thanks and i have gosh now i've got to rely on somebody and yet it has become absolutely one of the richest relationships with another but also actually to facilitate the richest relationship with myself so but i i can appreciate that and obviously um i think that is partly why the costs are very different it's much lower in psychoanalysis than it tends to be in clinical psychology yeah I don't know I think there's almost something of like to me it's something about the commitment to right like I have committed to this process and now if I'm if I can't make it because my work schedule is well actually I'm I'm kind of, yeah, I'm

abandoning the commitment to myself, but I have got somebody else who I'm committed to. So I encourage the working through of the rage too, right? We get there eventually, one route or another. So, yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I'm self-employed now, so I do get it as well. But yeah, it's like, yeah, thank you. Thank you for asking that question because that's really interesting in itself and kind of seeing that process play out like yeah it's

important stuff and it can really help people to change their lives and change their relationship so that they're not just going around on that hamster wheel really yeah and I love you know it's it's always like I guess ironic isn't it that we know let's say for instance the research says CBT therapists go to psychodynamic therapists for their own treatment and I trained an intensive short-term dynamic psychotherapy and I I'm in the long term I'm seven years in you know like I just I think it's really funny isn't it of how we are drawn to maybe there is something quite whole about that and kind of a wholesome aspect of that and I think it can truly change people's lives and it does come down to the

common factors actually that make therapy effective right that's why I'm you know a big supporter of many different modalities because actually there's many ways to be effective it's actually more to do obviously with things like therapist fit and rather than the modality and how authentic it feels to the person and which is what is truly life-changing I think but also people do get a lot of experiences of bad therapy right like would be remiss to not mention that too so yeah yeah absolutely and if if you were to be working with an unnamed professional be no different to being sat down with a patient in private practice so I am trying to understand what is the problem and how is it I can be of help and then what will inevitably arise is resistance resistance to me or resistance to themselves

about accessing deeper feeling and of course that does translate it ripples out into your life so i'm thinking of an actual literal example of you know they're having conflict with the coach and how can they resolve that because they might be a high performer but they're losing out access to maybe some important information from the coach or they're keeping them at a distance or they're being avoidant with them that is inevitably and has you know I'm thinking of real life examples here but you know is of course related to past figures past experiences with those in authority where they have been mistreated or disappointed or so it's really no different in that sense of us being able to sit down and face the feelings towards those people

so that they don't keep getting anxious in response to these feelings and then doing all sorts of defensive behaviors like acting reckless and getting a red card and being sent off or going out and drinking and eating badly which you know is not on their plan and is going to sabotage their you know desires to be a better performer but also affect their performance and impact the team but that's just one example say because my experiences and I think a lot of sports psychologists would at times or have echoed this with me that you know there are mental skills that can be very helpful but in my experience people um just don't use them right they've been taught them and unless you're getting through and you're able to break through that resistance that is you know sometimes at the

heart of the self-sabotage they aren't going to use the the things that are available to them so we've got to first deal with that otherwise you know you can teach them tools you can talk at them but it's not going to be of much help so i try to weave in these principles both in the one-to-one work but i will run emotional fitness classes which also tries to normalize you know if you're human this is going to relate to you you know other humans you're human this is going to relate to you you know other humans you might find this useful so we might talk about boundary setting and obviously you do need good access to healthy anger for that right you need to be able to say no and set a boundary and assert yourself if that boundary is violated or transgressed at other times you're

gonna you're gonna lose that championship game and you're going to be devastated and if you're blocking your grief to that you might find that actually instead of moving through grief you got depressed right isn't it going to be important for us to help you access the grief instead of going to a depressed position so it's just so relevant because fundamentally we're emotional creatures right so you can't dissect this from any aspect of our life. Oh, Suzanne, I feel like I want to have therapy with you now. It's making me think of a game I watched recently or a snippet of a game I watched recently where there was a biting incident or what looked like a biting incident.

And it absolutely made me in a football game case and not familiar with what I'm talking about somebody I think is what making me think we became frustrated and angry and acted out with their teeth and it made me think about what I used to say to my children we keep our teeth away from people even when we're cross you know it's that very basic rule but also the word bite for children. It's quite fun, isn't it? Bite, bite, bite. But, you know, it's about thinking about when you're told no, how do you respond? You know, my little boy, my youngest used to take himself to the porch and headbutt the wooden floor because he knew that was a behavior mommy couldn't ignore.

He probably knew mommy was a psychologist and she was weird about brains. You know, how are you gonna, how are you gonna perform and carry yourself when you're told no, or when you're dealing with big, big feelings? Yeah. And when the opponent is purposely trying to, you know, get you going, is using material that is going to aggravate you, is, you know, going to get you mobilized or the referee isn't going to you know fairness is a big thing and obviously from a very young age children are very in touch with fairness and justice and if that has been violated at a young age you can see where these conflicts arise right so the ref gives you know an unfair card or a penalty or whatever it might be.

And I think I know, I think there's been a couple of biting incidents in, I mean, I'm also thinking of the quite famous boxing incident where, I guess we won't name people, but yes, it does happen. And we would, of course, be thinking of that as an acting out. So this is not, that is more defensive behavior because the anxiety is so dysregulated that they might be feeling a primitive rage right that is very primitive the the desire to bite and like you're talking about this is the other beautiful thing that i'll often talk about you know when people say i'm not an angry person or uh you know like um well you weren't born like that because if you look at children they are absolutely in touch with the full force of their raw feelings and i have two kids and i am bitten

regularly marianne i you know with both of them they did you know my older one has moved out of that but my younger one does and he had butts and he pinches and he claws. And actually it's so primitive that that pathway is there with us right from birth. And then over time, we learn that in order to preserve the connection, to preserve the relationship to the people we need the most, I'm going to have to suppress this. Mom, dad, teacher, coach can't tolerate whatever the feeling is. So I learn eventually just to not even notice I'm having the feeling, but maybe, and this I think is quite chronic, people are aware they're anxious. Or other times they've just become so used to that anxiety, they think that's how I am. So if I think, I can tell you I've worked with professional footballers that will say to me, when the ball is at my feet, I have ringing in my ears, my vision is blurry. That is an extreme level of anxiety. They're still performing at a very high level, but you imagine the energy that is then freed up when they've learned to regulate their anxiety they've looked at the feelings that are generating that they've got

an absolutely different level of clarity and ability to perform they're already performing at an incredibly high level but they're absolutely crippled with anxiety you know so yeah i think it's just i mean it's essential in all areas but we we often have conflated rage and anger with the actual destructive acting out. And I think it takes a lot of just normalizing to people how, yeah, it's a very human, normal reaction. And part of what is quite well known, I think, in ISTDP is this idea of portraits. And maybe that would be referred to as active imagination in Jungian psychology, which is the invitation to face and feel the feelings, right? So actually to be able to portray what exactly you would like to do that is a world away from doing it. So just like I might say to my son, yeah, you do really want to hit your brother, but we't right like it's it's okay to have the feeling but it's not okay to act out and lash him you know lash lash out on him so yeah oh it's so

so interesting so interesting thank you Suzanne is there a right or wrong stage for people to start learning about this in their career are the books that people can kind of start reading before they begin any kind of training is there you know I know that for example they don't let you train in it until you're a final year trainee are there any similar rules for this no so I mean there's a lot of books out there so my kind of I suppose the people that come to my mind are of course, Patricia Coughlin. She has a number of books. Alan Abbas is very well known in the field. He has a number of books. John Fredrickson is again, very well known in the field. Josette Tenhab de la Bige and Robert Naborski have collaborated on books. the thing I would say is this is a lifelong model right so I think

what can happen and this is a I suppose something we're mindful of and we speak about in the community quite a lot is that you can get so excitable when you come across this material and you see the videos and they look incredible right I mean it's just fireworks on on kind of the screen and because they have been practicing for decades it does look seamless but of course they will talk to you about you know I could have gone off on this junction I could have gone here instead there's not a perfect way of doing it but I think then the tendency is to rush in and try to apply these practices. And then it can go very badly, right?

Because this is a very potent model. And so I think there needs to be an adequate respect for learning that and taking the time. And so the way that you train in the model, you do go into a core training, which is three years. And then after, you know, I've done advanced training after that and then I stay in contact with peer groups and I seek out supervision and but it's it's really getting your head around this is a lifelong learning this is not going to be you've done the three years and you're good to go and that I I think the principles are great but the way that you learn it is that you actually take your videotaped material and you show it to every block

so you're constantly getting feedback in real time of the material that you're showing and it did really feel like a group psychotherapy process as well Patricia is particularly skilled at being able to kind of bring that group dynamic process in so you again it's kind of like you're having your own therapy alongside it but of course you know there's a lot of material out there she's also on youtube so are so is john frederickson michelle may is releasing a book that i think is going to be very accessible so if people want to kind of have a read of it and how it's applied i guess from her own life and as a therapist and being in therapy yeah like and

go to a conference that's where you're really going to get to see that material so um I think I was introduced to it on the doctorate I saw a video and I signed up to a conference in Sweden I was like right I've got to see more of this this is the soonest conference I can go to but go to a conference you know um yeah see what you you make of it. But I guess I would just encourage like a healthy caution that, you know, we can get really carried away with this. But, you know, I wouldn't want anyone to have too much hubris in thinking it's an easy model. It is very complex. Yeah, it sounds it.

But you have made it sound, I don't know, you're obviously just a master in your field. I've loved know, you're obviously just a master in your field. I've loved chatting with you. How can people learn more about you and connect with you on socials if they want to, which I'm sure they will? Oh, thank you. Well, I am not super active on socials. It is something I need to get better at, but you can find me at the website www.emotionallyconnected.co.uk. I am on X and I am on Instagram and we are definitely looking going into next year. I am partnering with some professional dancers to kind of bring very much this embodied psychology to life. So one of the hopes is that we will have for professionals only workshops that kind of bring together we're calling it at the moment story body soul work and it's really going to

integrate story work with embodied movement practice sound healing and yeah encouraging people to of course grapple with themselves because of course who you are determines everything that you're able to bring into the world so if people want to register interest they can reach out and email me. That sounds amazing I will absolutely be on the waiting list for that. Thank you so much for your time I've loved chatting with you what an absolute privilege to have spent this time with you and yeah I feel like our audience are incredibly lucky to have had you as a guest because yeah you've just been wonderful so thank you well thank you for what you are doing and bringing many voices to this space so it's very much needed so I appreciate

I appreciate you having me on thank you and on brand I will say thank you Suzanne that makes me feel very seen very important thank you you're welcome oh gosh what an amazing experience that was speaking with Dr Suzanne please do go and follow her on socials and check out her website too what do you think to this episode has this wet your whistle to learn more has it made you think about the importance of accessing your own therapy? Or perhaps you're accessing this episode because you are considering ISTDP as a therapy approach for yourself. Has it sealed the deal for you? Please do let me know. Drop me a comment. If you're on Spotify, you can drop a comment as well and if you're on apple podcast please do rate and review wherever you get your podcast please do follow the show it really is the kindest thing you can do for totally free for any podcaster that you appreciate

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