The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast - What Is Neurofeedback The Mental Health Treatment Everyone Is Talking About

Starting point is 00:00:00 What if your brain could learn from its own activity? Not through talking, not through medication, but through real-time feedback about what it's actually doing. It sounds futuristic, but it's a technique called neurofeedback, and it's already being used to support people experiencing difficulties with anxiety, attention, trauma, sleep and more. In this episode, counselling psychologist and IALF neurofeedback practitioner, Dr Madeline Rhonetree, joins me as we explore what neurofeedback actually is, what the evidence says, and whether in future it could play a bigger role in mental health care and treatment. Hope you find it so useful. Hi, welcome along to Psychology Actually. I'm Dr. Marianne Trent, a qualified clinical psychologist

Starting point is 00:00:52 and today I am joined by Dr Madeline Rohn Tree, a qualified counselling psychologist. Hi, Madeline. Hi. Hi. So, pleased to have you here and I'm so excited. as well because today we're talking about something called neurofeedback, which is something that not that many people have heard of unless they have read the Bethel van der Kolk, The Body Keeps the Scorebook, which is where both you and I first heard about this from. I feel like it's the one that got away for me and it's the pandemic that got in the way of my

Starting point is 00:01:25 training, but you have done it. You are a neurofeedback practitioner. Could you tell our audience what neurofeedback is? So neurofeedback is a type of biofeedback. So you might have FitBits or your aura ring that's picking up your temperature, your heart rate. Neurofeedback is picking up signals from your brain and feeding that back to you. So you have, it's almost subconsciously really

Starting point is 00:01:53 because your brain is feeding back rather than your sort of conscious self. But it's really a sensory feedback on the brain waves that are going through your mind. Amazing. And why does that matter and how does that help? Yeah, it's a really good question. So if we think about when we, we obviously wake and sleep, we have different states of alertness.

Starting point is 00:02:17 And so in an ideal world, we want to be alert but not hypervigilant. We want to be relaxed but not disengaged or overly tense and emotionally responsible. are all responsive, so we're not sort of shut down. And in order to be in these states, we have different brain waves. So there's different frequencies for different brain waves that, sort of when we're awake, for example, we might have theta waves, sort of just daydreaming and hanging out in our heads. When we're sleeping, we have predominantly delta brainwaves. When we are sort of focused, we have beta, and they have like different frequencies. So the These are the different waves that kind of go through our brains and different states of wakefulness, if you will.

Starting point is 00:03:07 When we're particularly anxious and stressed out, we might have high beta waves. So these are what we call frequency bands, if you will, with these different frequencies. So that kind of sort of tells us whether we're awake or asleep in broad terms. underneath these bands is an infra-low frequency. It's a really slow frequency that is almost like the tidal wave, if you will, sort of how the undulations of the tide is, as opposed to each wave, which might be the bands. When we think about the optimal state of being, we want to be alert, we want to be awake, we're not only hyper-vigilant, we want to have this sort of present, relaxed state, but ready to spring and into action, if we need to be. And our nervous system is the driving system, if you will, of all of that.

Starting point is 00:03:59 So whether we are just sort of chilling out and having a cup of tea, but not so chill that if there's something that we need to attend to like an emergency, that we're not disengaged from that. We don't want to be so vigilant that we can't relax either. Our nervous system is the system that regulates all of that. And so if our nervous system is out of sync, we will be stuck in different brain states. And so if our brain can have a feedback information about how it's doing, it can better regulate itself. So I don't know if you've done any dancing or yoga or I don't even going to the gym. Generally, you'll see there's always mirrors, right? There's mirrors everywhere in these sorts of scenarios. Why? So that you can get feedback on your movements. Am I doing this

Starting point is 00:04:50 movement correctly, am I stretching properly? Because if you don't get the feedback, how are you supposed to know to correct yourself? And this is exactly the same. So you're feeding back to your brain, its own brain waves, so that it can regulate itself. We have this propensity to fix, to get into equilibrium, to get back into harmony, back into sync because we want to operate functionally optimally. There's no good being stuck in any of these systems. So if our brains can get some information about how it's doing, it can then change that. That's so interesting. And yeah, it's reminded me of the Seben Fisher book I read on neurofeedback.

Starting point is 00:05:31 And I just found it also fascinating. And I think I'm right in saying that she was talking about different brain waves. So, you know, delta, beta, theta, that kind of thing. And also made me think that I'm speaking to you at the moment with a broken hand, which I did watch happen via a mirror. I was at the gym when I did it. But can we have a little bit of a look at what might have been going on with my brain since then? So I did this on a Tuesday and today is the following Monday, so almost a week later.

Starting point is 00:06:01 I have noticed that I am just more exhausted and I've got less bandwidth for things. I've had to kind of reprioritize things. Can we make sense of what's been going on with my brain since that trauma and since the pain? Yeah, absolutely. So I would say that to look at this through a neurofeedback lens, we can see that our nervous systems get impacted by stress. So a physical trauma will be stressful. The pain will presumably affect your sleep, which will then also affect your nervous system and how it operates. And so then we can see how the nervous system kind of gets out of sync, gets out of kilter. sometimes it's difficult to get back. So if your nervous system was a little bit more sticky, say, it will take time for it to get back to equilibrium. But that's what healing is. Healing is we have this natural propensity to want to heal and get back to equilibrium. And so your body is obviously producing extra red blood cells and white blood cells to kind of fix the trauma in your hand.

Starting point is 00:07:15 the pain is there to kind of tell you what not to do, right? Don't over, don't overwork it, so otherwise I can't heal. So all of that is working perfectly, but it's also taking from your bandwidth. I suppose as long as it's within a window of what you might call reasonable, yeah, it's reasonable to imagine that you're feeling a little bit tired and a little bit exhausted and maybe a bit frustrated because you can't do the things that you want to do and you have to rearrange stuff, then you would sort of think about, I guess,

Starting point is 00:07:45 I guess we could maybe use the window of tolerance type of analogy here, right? That is this is to be expected. This is understandable. But let's say maybe three weeks later, you're still feeling this and you're still not able to, and there's still frustration. Well, maybe we could then start thinking about maybe the nervous system is stuck in some ways, that it needs to be re-regulated. And so from a neurofeedback perspective, it can actually help with pain.

Starting point is 00:08:11 It can help with feeling a sense of calm. so that and reduce the stress the stress mechanisms that are associated with maybe being tense and in discomfort so interesting thank you i will keep a mindful watch on that i think it's going to be fine i'm already in less pain so i think it's going to be fine and generally speaking what sort of presentations can neurofeedback help people to achieve changes in the interesting thing i think with neurofeedback and so what i work with is is is infralow neurofeedback, which is slightly different to the band, the bands that you were talking about, the alpha-delta theta. So those are EEG bands that you can work on.

Starting point is 00:08:54 I work on the lower frequency, the infra-low frequency neurofeedback, which is that sort of the wave, this slow kind of, it's almost like the foundation. We sort of talk about the architecture of your nervous system in a way. So once you regulate that and get that where the arousal system is, let's call it in balance, the instabilities are also balanced out, then it makes sense to add the other band trainings on top of that. So what that means is that we address a broad range of experiences and don't really focus on diagnostics. So if we were to use diagnostics, say depression or anxiety, those are the sorts of things that neurofeedback can help with. So autism, ADHD, post-traumatic stress disorder, sleep issues, migraines and headaches,

Starting point is 00:09:51 ticks, vertigo, perimenopausal symptoms. So it's, it can, it's because there's downstream effects of regulating a whole network. And so then it's an interesting way of working because when I talk, when I work with clients, we have this, it's 150 symptom checklist of all of the things that you might experience. You rate them on a scale from 1 to 10, like how, how am I much am I marked by various? And you go through psychological, sort of, so, it's like sort of the, well, just everything really you can think of from sleep issues to your appetite to everything. And so then you focus on, because that's the way we work around, then you focus on the ones that are scoring the highest,

Starting point is 00:10:43 because these are the things that are going to be sort of impacted by the most. So it could look like the variability is huge. So I could have sleep issues, food difficulties, mood issues, and distractibility. So it's like a variety of things, which doesn't really necessarily fall under a particular diagnostic. Yet with the neurofeedback, we're having some ideas around, okay, this is, this might be an issue with instability, say, there's instability in my system, that I, my system struggles to toggle easily back and forwards to get to equilibrium, or it could be an arousal issue, that I have too much of something or too little of something. So I might have, if I have an overall,

Starting point is 00:11:35 arousal system, then it's anxiety, panic attacks, you know, those sorts of things, sort of insomnia, racing thoughts, that's sort of an over arousal. So then I'm having some ideas around, okay, what is it that the nervous system needs? It needs to have a sort of a karma. Well, it could be under arousal. So you have low mood, lethargy, fatigue, brain fog, these sorts of things. So that's a low arousal. And so it's kind of like an arousal and instability question. that we target from an ILF, you're a feedback perspective, the downstream effects of that is these huge, sort of broad range of difficulties, I guess, that people experience.

Starting point is 00:12:18 I see. So with, I know when I was reading the literature, it's about, you know, for example, complex trauma. And you've got an over-arousal because the body and the mind is constantly trying to work out why it's not safe or to feel safe or to kind of manipulate that environment. and they might be more anxious, they might be lower in mood. And so how might you expect, I don't know, I don't know how many sessions you typically have for somebody

Starting point is 00:12:45 with a complex trauma background, but how might that person's presentation change over time if they were treated with neurofeedback? So with PTSD, for example, you would, this is the thing, that's a diagnostic. So from a neurofeedback perspective, you would kind of like ask other questions you'd want to have sort of more back, I suppose you'd do this anyway within trauma work, right?

Starting point is 00:13:12 You'd want to have a full, the whole biopsychosocial kind of that template to ask about. But you'd also ask specifically which, I suppose, let me show you, I've got, you have sensors. I'm going to deviate slightly. You have sensors that you, that will pick up that you put on different places. So with infralow frequency, you have, sensors that you sort of place, but two of them always get placed in different way places depending on what it is that you want to work with. So you'd ask a whole bunch of questions in terms of figuring out where to start. Is it instability? Do I want

Starting point is 00:13:48 to stabilize the system? So headaches, seizures, flashbacks, dissociation is an instability issue, say. If for example somebody with PTSD has flashbacks, this would what we call a T3-T4 instability issue. So I put a placement on my, just above my ears on the left and the right hand side. If it's more sort of anxiety and panic, that's an intrusive thought, say, then I would want to lower the arousal where then I'd put the placements at the back on the right hand side and just above the right ear. So those are the two main placements that you would start to sort of stable. and regulate the nervous system. And so, again, it depends on what the client is coming with in terms of what is the most significant difficulty

Starting point is 00:14:45 or experience that they are they're having. I suppose the thing with diagnostics is it kind of gives you an rough idea about where in the department store that you're going to go shopping in a way, right? If it's depression, it's more likely to be low arousal, brainfrog, low motivation. So then you have some ideas about the people.

Starting point is 00:15:04 protocols where you want to place them. If it's anxiety, you want to figure out, is it a rumination overthinking OCD-like, or is it more sort of visceral kind of in the body, sort of panic of versions? So again, it will just kind of tell you whether you want to, is it instability or an arousal question. I see. And so these are electrodes that get placed actually onto the scalp or the forehead. And I think, right in saying that you kind of almost like playing games. So I think I remember there was one case where you've got two rockets and you need to kind of think, think the rockets taking off. Is that right? How does it work?

Starting point is 00:15:48 So those are the band frequency. So the C-Bahn book doesn't talk about INF and neurofeedback. So the band frequency, so the typical ones that you would train are alpha, alpha- theta, or alpha-beater. they might they wait they can work on operant conditioning so you have some kind of a reward so like a rocket that that sort of takes off what have you with infralow frequency the frequency so slow it's it's there's no kind of reward for the brain necessarily and so what you what the feedback looks like depending on the program that you're using it could be well there's three ways of getting the feedback. So visually, so you might be looking at a screen. And the screen, depending on what you're using, I mean, you could use, for example, a YouTube, so you can

Starting point is 00:16:43 add YouTube onto the system and then it would increase or decrease in size, for example. So that, what would you call that? Sort of the frequency by which it decreases and increases is kind of like a pulse, I suppose, and that pulse is letting the brain know that this is what your, your, your frequency is doing. This is what your brain is doing at these particular electrode placements. Now, nothing's going into the brain. A lot of people worry about something's happening to them because they sound like, you know, electrodes sound quite. So I call them sensors because that's all they're doing. They're just picking up information and then giving it back to you, a bit like an aura ring or a refit bit. Nothing's happening to you. All it is is your brain kind of

Starting point is 00:17:27 realizing that this pattern that is being shown to me is mine. So I think an example could be you and I might have a conversation, you know, in a networking event, and then you hear your name and you'll sort of turn, you'll react to that. You're not talking to me listening purposely out for your name being called. Your brain is doing that. Our brains scan for patterns the whole time. If I was to say Mary Mary had a little, your brain is instantly going to go lamb, right? Because that's the pattern it's learned. So our brains are constantly looking for patterns. So now you're looking at this screen and you have headphones on. So you're also getting auditory information. And I also have a tactile ones. It's like a little box that sort of vibrates. So I've got three

Starting point is 00:18:11 methods by which my brain can then give me feedback on its rhythms. And so that's what it's doing. It's noticing these patterns and thinking, oh gosh, this is me, this is me. And then, I mean, hang on a second, this doesn't feel really nice. And so then it regulates itself. It's really clever. Yeah, it is. And it's also a lot to almost get your head around as well, isn't it? Like, if someone's never heard of this. It's very passive. As a therapist, you're asking questions and you're noticing micro-movements in the face and you're kind of like listening out for stuff that's not said and you're sort of really active. But here, you're just watching something and listening to something. And And then as a practitioner, I'm sort of asking my clients, so how does it feel on the body?

Starting point is 00:18:57 How are you feeling? And kind of using their feedback to inform me on whether we're on the right track or not. Hi there, only me. I'm just popping in here to let you have some exciting news because I really do believe that conversations about neurofeedback are so long overdue. If like me, you're fascinated by how neurofeedback can transform mental health, then you are listening to the right conversation. After filming finished, I contacted B-Medic and I'm delighted to say, not only are they sponsoring this episode, they're also offering you an exclusive discount code. If you'd like to bring the benefits of ILF neurofeedback to your clients, then B-Medic offers complete medical systems and accredited training to support your journey. As a global supplier of medical equipment and accessories for mental health specialists,

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Starting point is 00:20:28 That's www. B-E-E-M-E-D-I-C.com. Or click the link in my show notes. And you can also save 20% with my exclusive code, actually 20, A-C-T-U-A-L-L-Y-20. And that is valid on all basic courses in the UK during 20. 2026, hurry because the code is valid until the 1st of November, 2026. Now let's get back to my chat with Dr Madeline so you can fall even deeper in love with ILF neurofeedback.

Starting point is 00:21:04 Okay, so for example, autistic people, people with an ADHD diagnosis, what kind of changes might they see and is it okay that we're making those changes or helping people to make those changes? So, certainly from social psychiatry back in the day when I worked in that, we always talked about whether symptoms were bothersome. So the example would be OCD, for example. So let's say I have OCD and I checked my door handle five times every morning before I leave. Now does that bother me?

Starting point is 00:21:40 No. Is it an issue? No. Do I need to have therapy for it? No. Or, as my CBT trainer once said, you know, I know when I'm stressed, I'm going to be really pissed off it for my husband, hasn't put his cup away in the dishwasher. So do I want to have therapy about that? No, because I know what it's all about. So it's kind of like the same sort of thing. Like, are you bothered by these things?

Starting point is 00:22:06 So my son, for example, he's seven. And school reports came back with, you know, he doesn't listen. He's easily distractible. keeps playing with his other friends and he doesn't you know and this is not unusual for us no big news for us because it's like for the umpteenth time can you do X and even in swimming you'd see him like doing all sorts of other things rather than listening to the instructor so clearly an inattention issue and so I tried the infralone neurofeedback on him in in a half term and you're always sort of is it neurofeedback or is it placebo? Like is it just because we are doing this? You know, and I said to my

Starting point is 00:22:50 husband, well, the proof will be in the pudding if the school recognises anything. And sure enough, I think two weeks later we have, you know, a parent meeting. And the teacher goes quite spontaneously, it's really interesting. Since the half term, he's been so good. And you're just like, well, okay, fine, you know, and I was like really curious like me, the scientist and me was kind of like So, because they have these tracker systems, you know, if they misbehave or do something, they go on track her and there's a warning system. And I'm like, so, and she goes, she hasn't been on tracker, he hasn't been on tracker all week. And I'm like, oh, so how often would be on tracker before half term?

Starting point is 00:23:25 And she goes, oh, about four or five times a week. And now I go, she goes, oh, or maybe once or twice. I'm like, okay, right, we've got hard data here that suggests there's something that's changing. And it's kind of like blind control in a way because she doesn't know. what we've been doing. So you could say, well, it's good to be distractible if you're, you know, looking out for danger, say, but if you're in a school environment and need to concentrate and listen to what the teacher's saying, well, then that's obviously not a really productive position to be in.

Starting point is 00:23:58 And plus the poor kid, right, he's getting an 80% reduction in being told off, really, right? So school is now going to be a much nicer experience. And at home, you know, it's now, can you get ready for school? and he's sandwich in hand that he's made by himself with clothing and book bag ready and shoes. And I'm like, who are you? Like, who are you? Right?

Starting point is 00:24:19 So massive changes. It's really impressive. Yeah, it sounds it. I think I could go on that for myself. I think my husband would like me to do it as well. Yeah. Is there much emerging evidence base? So of course, when I was in the NHS, I said,

Starting point is 00:24:35 oh, can we, you know, can you pay for me to be trained in this? And they were like, no. So I was going to be self-funding. But is there any emerging stuff? Is it ever going to end up on the nice guidance? Could you imagine? Definitely, definitely. I think it's headed in that direction.

Starting point is 00:24:50 There was a massive study, a literature review that came out in 2022, that found, they found 18 studies that they could use, basically, out of, I think, 36 or about 40 pieces of work that they had identified as for or infrared low neurofeedback specifically. But they'd also demonstrated an almost an exponential growth in research around the area since, I think, the last 20 years. I mean, neurofeedback has been around for a very long time. Infra low has been around for a shorter amount of time.

Starting point is 00:25:24 So the active treatment group, I suppose they range, well, a lot of the studies are single case studies. And I think one or two of the studies had maybe 40 participants in them. and maybe half of those were control groups. So the main criticism is we don't have big enough controls. Another difficulty, I think, is that it's very individualized. You know, our nervous systems are different, depending on what environment we've grown up and what, you know, you've just broken your hands, say, so maybe your nervous system is out of kink a little bit.

Starting point is 00:26:00 And so it's quite individualized in terms of the placements, whether it's, you know, over the ears or behind the head. or wherever we put these placements, which makes it difficult to standardize as terms of protocols, right? So those are the main criticisms of it. That said, there's just recently, I think it was this year that was an MFRI study published with single ILF sessions and neurological changes already in a single session. So there's definitely promising research that's coming out and more people are, it's having, you know, if you think about medicine, it takes decades for even in, I think, I think the average age in medical school for some finding in the medical field, it takes 17 years on average for it to reach medical school to be taught to our GPs or whoever, right?

Starting point is 00:26:57 So it's, it's, you know, this is a, in some, in one way it's the brand new thing, even though it's decades old, but it's definitely gaining traction. And the, the changes that I've seen is I sometimes tell myself, like why is this not more widely available? It's that transformative I find. Since Dr. Madeline and I chatted, I had a little dive into the research for neurofeedback. And I also got in contact with B-Medic, who gave me a few more examples of relevant research. I know that if you're a fan of the show, you also care about research. So since Dr. Madeline and I chatted, I have had a little look into the evidence base even more.

Starting point is 00:27:34 And I've chatted with B-Medic as well. The neurophysiological effects of neurofeedback are actually now coming together as a pretty solid evidence base. There's also the landmark fMRI study, which was published in the journal Neuro Image and looking at the kind of connections in the brain as a result of ILF neurofeedback. All of the details for this are in the show notes and in the description for the video. Hope that you also think this really matters and it's making you even more excited. Now, back to Dr. Madeline and my question. It's such a beautiful bolt on to therapy. So I'm beginning to see this as sort of neurofeedback is like working on the hardware and therapy works on the software. We're like updating our thoughts

Starting point is 00:28:20 and our, you know, our belief systems, but the neurofeedback just gets us over the edge in terms of the finish line with our therapeutic goals. It's really fascinating. It's like the treatment that reaches parts of the brain and the presentation that other therapies. can't, it sounds like. Yeah, absolutely, 100%. And in terms of, you know, medication can have side effects, are there any risks to this? It's a good question. So yes and no. So there's no, it's not side effects as such. It's just the effect of training a system, nervous system. So if you, if you are already hypervigilance, say, and you have a frequency that's a bit too high, you might aggravate that or you might get a little bit of a headache because it's it's the nervous

Starting point is 00:29:10 system is kind of oh i don't like this so it will react it will this is the way it's telling you i don't like i don't like what i'm seeing i need you i need you to change the frequency it's short-lived though right because a single session it maybe lasts up to about 48 hours or something something like this you know so which which is also the downside of neurofeedback in some ways i guess is you need quite a few sessions. The recommended is a minimum of 20 sessions at least once a week, ideally two to three times a week, again, depending on your, like, how well you respond or how sensitive you are to the feedback. If you have an adverse effect, it would be short-lived and you can also change. So let's say if I have a client that has, gets a headache in the

Starting point is 00:29:53 session, I can just change the placement and then I stop the headache. I've had people, you know, almost migraine, right, onset migraine, and then we go in, our instabilities over the ears, right, the left and the right ear, and then migraine gone to the point where, you know, after, like I said, after every session you need to check in. And so here I am checking in a little bit earlier with this client saying, you know, how's the, how's the migraine? And they go, oh, I'd completely forgotten about it.

Starting point is 00:30:23 You know, so it can really. Yeah, I mean, that's what got us talking about neurofeedback in the DMs because I shared that my son has migraines and he's nine and he's had them for years and you're like, have you ever tried neurofeedback? And I was like, well, no, I haven't. And then you're like, oh, I'm trained in it. So yeah, like I guess the disadvantage to this is, is that because it's not really available on the NHS currently is that if you're needing multiple sessions a week or certainly weekly, the cost can stack up, can't it? I have found that I, as a private practitioner, in own therapy, I have, I think I can't remember which insurance company it is now,

Starting point is 00:31:05 but they have allowed neurofeedback simply because it was the last port of course. I had a particular patient where done loads of therapy, done all the medication, quote-unquote, none of it worked, let's try neurofeedback, and then the insurance company goes fine. And so something is happening in terms of the recognition of this. Okay. And obviously not to share any personal details of that client, but is that making progress? Is it making changes for that client?

Starting point is 00:31:32 Yeah. I don't know if I can share. I don't think they would mind. There's an anger and difficulty almost coming in with a black eye from a road rage incident. And a few weeks later coming back into therapy, saying, oh, there was an incident, but I wasn't bothered. And that's, yeah, some of the literature I'd been reading was kind of using neurofeedback

Starting point is 00:31:56 post-traumatic brain injury and how you could really help the brain to repair itself in a way that just hasn't been possible with kind of rehab work. And it's just fascinating stuff. It really is fascinating. And, you know, when you, when you read this list of things that it can, it can it can help with your life oh oh and when when i did the training i'm like oh really night sweats i'm in sort of perimenopal state right like oh night sweats and disturbed sleep and brain fog um and it seriously does so so for me that so that's kind of i'm dyslexic so i and i think i'm neurospicy in the sense that you know tabs open and a little bit of distractibility i know my placements now if i'm feeling a little bit demotivated, a little bit flat. I've historically been prone to depression.

Starting point is 00:32:47 I put on my antidepressant placement and the next day it's I'm good again. It's nuts. It's almost again, I sometimes sort of is this is it is this placebo or is this kind of like it's but it does it does it does it does it does it does it does it does it you know is it is it an issue where is if let's say I can't I can't organize myself and I can't. I'm just inundated with sensory informational visual stimuli coming at me. Then I've obviously, my whole family, blessed them, have been through the whole neurofeedback treadmill. And my husband's like, well, I'm fine.

Starting point is 00:33:25 I don't really need anything. Well, if there was anything, I could maybe do with a bit of, you know, good, better focus. Fine, right. So we train on that. And he's, I'm sure he doesn't mind me sharing the story. He, amongst other things, does printing. So printing press, so etching.

Starting point is 00:33:42 This is a very old technology, where you put pieces of paper through a press to print fine art. And so I guess it could be a slightly mundane job, right? And he said, oh, I lint straight into this. Normally I'd be like, right, when can I finish this job so I can get onto the next one? And he was like, I felt almost serene and calm doing this, which was a new experience for him. So that was quite interesting. So, yeah. How nice.

Starting point is 00:34:10 my husband would say, can you keep the hall table clutter free? And can you keep your side of your side of the bedroom a little bit tidier? It's not awful, but yeah, like that's the recurrent themes from our marriage that he would change in a heartbeat. It's been so interesting chatting with you. And this hasn't done anything for dissuading me for learning more about this. So thank you. This really does feel like the one that got away. I was almost about to book onto training and then the pandemic unfolded and then I've gone online only.

Starting point is 00:34:45 But thank you. Where can people learn more about you and your work, Madeline? So I've just started a clinic in London called the London Neurofeedback Clinic. So that's it, the London NeurofeedbackClick.com. It's based in East London. There is also a directory on the B-Medic.com website where you can find your feedback practitioners across the world. So if you're not in London, maybe take a look at them. They will be practitioners that do more than ILF as well, so they'll do frequency band training as well.

Starting point is 00:35:14 So that will be my next training, I think, is some frequency band training. Amazing. Thank you so much for your time in speaking with us. Thank you for having me on and talking about this is so exciting. Yeah. I'm excited too. Thank you, Madeline. Thank you so much for being here as a listener, as a watcher. If you've listened this far and you're not already following the show, wherever you listen to your MP3 podcasts, why not do me a little favour? and click follow. And likewise on YouTube, if you're not already a subscriber, please do. Consider

Starting point is 00:35:45 subscribing and clicking that notification bell so that you never miss another episode. I definitely believe that our bandwidth can be affected by all sorts of things and grief is a big one. If you are grieving or you know somebody who is that absolutely can diminish our capacity, I think you might well find the Grief Collective book really helpful. If you've enjoyed this, episode and you'd like to learn a little bit more about the history of traumatic brain injuries. There's a really great episode on Phineas Gage and what that taught us as a profession about traumatic brain injury. That's on screen for you now or linked in the show notes.

The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast - What Is Neurofeedback The Mental Health Treatment Everyone Is Talking About

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