The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast - What it means to call yourself a psychologist, with Dr Tara Quinn-Cirillo

Episode Date: August 15, 2022

Show Notes for The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast Episode: 36: What it means to call yourself a psychologist.Thank you for listening to the Aspiring Psychologist Podcast. The journey to becoming a qualified psychologist is not an easy one. Increasingly, there are people out there who claim to be psychologists when they are not qualified. Today I am joined by the inspiring Dr Tara Quinn-Cirillo, who is a counselling psychologist. We discuss what it means to call yourself a psychologist and the controversies around using this term without the qualifications. I hope that you find it useful and thank you for being a part of my world. The Highlights: 00:28: Welcoming Dr Tara Quinn-Cirillo, counselling psychologist. 02:23: Tara’s journey08:09: What can you do if you spot an unqualified psychologist?09:00: Why the difference between qualified and unqualified is so vital.10:21: What the BPS logo actually means.12:49: The impact on aspiring psychologists and qualified psychologists. 17:35: Considering risk.19:21: Let’s talk money.20:09: Tara’s brilliantly compassionate conversation starter project. 25:51: Getting in touch with Tara and a big thank you!Get in touch with Tara: Website: www.drtara.co.ukLinkedIn: Dr Tara Quinn-Cirillo https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-tara-quinn-cirillo-757301212/Links:Get your Supervision Shaping Tool now: https://www.goodthinkingpsychology.co.uk/supervisionConnect socially with Marianne and check out ways to work with her, including the upcoming Aspiring Psychologist Book and The Aspiring Psychologist Membership on her Link tree: https://linktr.ee/drmariannetrent• To check out The Clinical Psychologist Collective Book: https://amzn.to/3jOplx0 To join my free Facebook group and discuss your thoughts on this episode and more: https://www.facebook.com/groups/aspiringpsychologistcommunityLike, Comment, Subscribe & get involved:If you enjoy the podcast, please do subscribe and rate and review episodes. If you'd like to learn how to record and submit your own audio testimonial to be included in future shows head to: https://www.goodthinkingpsychology.co.uk/podcast and click the blue request info button at the top of the page.

Hi there, it's Marianne here. Before we dive into today's episode, I want to quickly let you know about something exciting that's happening right now. If you've ever wondered how to create income that works for you, rather than constantly trading your time for money, then you'll love the Race to Recurring Revenue Challenge with my business mentor, Lisa Johnson. This challenge is designed to help you build sustainable income streams. And whether you're an aspiring psychologist, a mental health professional, or in a completely different field, the principles can work for you.

There are also wonderful prizes to be won directly by Lisa herself. And if you join the challenge by my link, you can be in with a chance of winning a one-to-one hours coaching with me, Dr. Marianne Trent. Do you want to know more? Of course you do. Head to my link tree, Dr. Marianne Trent, or check out my social media channels, or send me a quick DM and I'll get you all the details. Right, let's get on with today's episode.

If you're looking to become a psychologist, then let this be your guide. episode. With Dr. Marianne Trent Hi, welcome along to the Aspiring Psychologist podcast. What does it mean to call yourself a psychologist? That is the question we are going to be answering in today's episode of this podcast. And I'm going to be joined by a wonderful friend and colleague, Dr. Tara Quinn-Cherillo, who is a counselling psychologist. And we're going to be answering this question together. I hope you'll find it a really useful, thought-provoking episode. And and as ever if you've got any questions comments or observations on it please do come along and talk to us you know so I'm going to be in the aspiring psychologist community Facebook group come and discuss your thoughts about this episode here,

because I'd love to know what you think. But for now, let me pass over to a very hot Marianne and Tara, as we answer the question what it means to call yourself a psychologist. And I will catch up with you on the other end. I'd like to welcome along our guest today who is Dr. Tara Quinn-Chirillo. Thanks for joining us Tara. You're welcome. So you are a counselling psychologist and also the Conversation Starter Project founder. Yes, yes. Lovely and we first crossed paths I believe via Facebook didn't we through a professionals group that we're both part of but you're also part of the clinical psychologist collective I yeah I asked if you'd like to be part of it and you were on holiday at the time and you absolutely rose to the challenge

so thank you so much for being part of that welcome I think I wrote it on my sunbed. It's always useful to have a little overview of you and where you're at. Would you be able to give us a little flavour of of your career to date Tara? So I am a HCPC registered counselling psychologist so I qualified, oh my gosh I sound really old, a very long time ago, over 20 years ago, so I started my training in 1999 and back then psychologists trained in chunks, I did a master's and then a practitioner diploma and then my doctorate later on. So I've worked in mental health, disability, I've also worked with head injury patients as well, all sorts of things. I've worked in the NHS for many years and then set myself up in

private practice about seven eight years ago I have a real interest in humanitarian and community work as well so I'm involved in a few projects and run one of my own in my own local area to help people connect and feel better and combat loneliness I love that I'm so inspired by your community work it's incredible so we might well hear more about um about your projects um a little bit later but today we thought it would be a good idea to get together to discuss you know what it means to be and for those of you we are we are not recording video today because um we are both melting because we should say for our listeners it's currently 40 degrees and we we are

you know we're not camera ready so I was going to do some inverted commas um but that that's not going to work but um what it means to call yourself a psychologist and why that can be a bit confusing for the general public but also a bit confusing when you're trying to become a psychologist absolutely I think because even as a psychologist sometimes I struggle with who and who isn't allowed to use the title training has changed a lot over the years as well which I think also is something that added into the mix and I guess a really important thing for people to consider is that it's not a protected title so people can use it who have an undergraduate degree in psychology.

But when we think about what we call a qualified, a psychologist offering mental health service to the public, I guess is a nice way of putting it, needs to have undergone a certain type of training and needs to be registered with the Health and Care Professions Council. And that makes it really easy because you can look us up on that directory. So anybody who is saying that they are a qualified psychologist offering a service to the public, you should be able to look them up on that register. It's free to access and their name will be there. If it's not there, they are not qualified and they are not registered. OK, and there are a number of titles that are regulated by the HCPC, aren't there? There are, yes. there's quite a few which includes clinical psychology, counseling psychology as well. You do

there are psychologists who work predominantly in research as well and I guess you know in our discussion today we need to be really clear that we're talking predominantly about people who are offering a therapeutic service to the public so there may be people who are research psychologists that's very different um but we're talking about people that would look up go and see for something like depression or anxiety who are offering you what we call a clinical service really that might be a very nice way of putting it um and those people need to be registered and that is so that people can keep an eye on that we've done the right training that we're continuing to develop our skills and that we're practicing

within a robust ethical framework that's really important so we all do continuing professional development we all have to re-register with the healthcare professionals council and they keep an eye and people can make complaints about services they receive, which is exactly how it should be. So the framework is there to keep you safe and to keep practitioners in line as well. We need that. And that's what makes a good ethical practitioner. But it's just not very clear to the public what those pathways are. Yeah. And I think when you see someone calling themselves a psychologist I think you just assume someone wouldn't be wouldn't have a wouldn't have the gall enough to do that if they weren't actually qualified and so I think lots of people don't look into the qualifications and just look at what people

are describing themselves as and that is is it done to purposefully mislead I don't know and I certainly had the opposite when I was younger that I had massive imposter syndrome and wouldn't want to at all speak outside of my areas of competence it's you know maybe it's admirable that people live in the world where they feel they can do that but it can be really misleading can't it i'm so glad you brought that up because that's the thing that i struggle with so i was on linkedin literally for 10 minutes before this call um and a coach that i know who's now using the title psychologist this week and that's the thing that i struggle with is that people are using the term and it's the ethics of it so I

guess legally you can say if you have a psychology degree you can use that title that's always going to be confusing unless that is changed but what I struggle with is people who perhaps haven't got a first degree in psychology so what we call an undergraduate degree and then call themselves psychologists because that's very different and I really struggle with why someone wants to do that because just like you Marianne I sometimes get nervous about am I able to offer things and I've been doing this for 22 years so you know I really do struggle with that and actually on the one hand I think should I admire these people that they are bold and putting themselves out there but then I actually then remember to go back to my original viewpoint which is actually I struggled to see how that was safe and ethical and how we manage risk in those situations. Yeah you raised a really good point about you know who do you complain to if someone isn't registered or regulated or qualified

and that's not something I considered. Yes yeah so I did try to raise a complaint against somebody recently actually when you didn't have an undergraduate degree and was using the term psychologist to offer under an umbrella of an applied psychologist name, so using counsellor psychologist as a title, but because they're not registered as anybody, there's no one to complain to. So it's almost as if if you are qualified, you're doing the right thing like we are, you're actually more vulnerable because people can go and make a complaint against you, which is absolutely how it can be. But what do we do if we're concerned about people? You can bring it up with them.

I'm not sure what else you can do because I know that our professional bodies are not interested in that, which is another issue. And there are different layers, aren't there? I guess we could do several podcasts on this. There are some people that are using logos from certain professional bodies for example on their website so those professional bodies i think have a duty to be monitoring that and to do something about it um but again if people are just using the term um the word psychology is the science of mind and behavior so if you feel that you are supporting people to understand their behavior and make different life

choices then technically maybe you feel that you are a psychologist um the other thing i wanted to bring up and it is a tricky subject is that sometimes when we try and bring this up in the media or between professionals on a public platform it can look like we're being very protective over what we do and i don't feel that it's about that it's not about that we don't want people to say they're psychologists because we need to be very special and a very elite group it's about safety and recently that's the only reason that i like to talk about this is who is offering services to the public people that are often vulnerable maybe not be in a position to make a really good informed choice about who

they're seeing if you're overly anxious or you're depressed how often are you going to be able to be in a position to really look into someone and to know there's a trust element huge trust element someone says they are but they presumably are and that's I guess why it's really important that we speak out and try and help people make more informed choices about who they see yeah I think if you do see certain logos you think that they're credible but actually um let's talk about it it's bps isn't it that we're alluding to that you could be registered with the bps as a graduate member and then you could display their logo yes but if if you were doing that the general public might assume that you were at doctoral

level because you don't necessarily have to say what level of membership you have so people use the term registered which actually is on anybody's paperwork so when i was a student you could register as a student member so even before i started my training i registered that was very exciting to do because i wanted to get, you know, CPD events. I wanted to learn. I wanted to get the job section, which used to be at the back of the magazine we got in those days before the Internet became a huge thing because I'm that old. But there is a difference. I'm registered with. You could be registered with any organization, but it doesn't tell you much about what you do

and what you're able to provide and how safe and ethical you are and actually when you are a qualified psychologist you don't even need to now be registered with the vps if you don't choose to so the absence of a logo isn't necessarily the sign of a lack of qualification but if someone is calling themselves one of the protected titles like clin psych or you know forensic psychologist or you know sport and exercise psychologist counselling psychologist then they need to be registered with with the hcpc and if they are not then you can report them to the hcpc to get that stopped so you know some people are very clever so they have done this research so they know to get that stopped? and that's really confusing for the public now the public are using social media to find people and there's a number of BBC

documentaries actually over the last couple of years about unregulated therapists in general and who people are going to see and how they're finding them so the route's changing and when people are looking at social media your title, the way that you portray yourself also can give you an indication of how qualified you

are but actually you can do a different story can't it yeah and with our audience being aspiring psychologists i can imagine it's quite disheartening to see people calling themselves psychologists and making you know probably a reasonable income when they're trying to do it you know the actual qualified hard slog route um you know it really disheartening that's such an important point i know when you're talking about doing this podcast you know the kind of first call is to think right we need to educate the public but also what is that journey like you know someone like myself my course was self-funded i had to work night shifts in hospitals to be a robust ethical practitioner and i had to strive

really hard to do my best on a day-to-day basis and there are even sometimes when i take referrals i think actually i'm not sure that's the case for me maybe someone who specializes there a bit more should take that on um and i pride myself on that and actually it can be really frustrating when you've got people who don't see that as an issue who are quite happy to use something it's often the words be clear about the prestige that goes along with that you know quite often people won't question the word psychologist yes and i see them and there is a certain um i guess the word robust, that title sounds quite robust. This person must know what they're doing.

They must be able to manage my problems. Maybe I feel safe with them. And certainly I know when I've had patients inquiring to me, what are the differences between psychologists and, you know, a lot of them have said just make them feel safe seeing a nurse psychologist. There is something there, isn't it? You know that and you're offering yourself out as a psychologist it's really unethical really really unethical and it does make me question

why are you in that industry in the first place yeah when i when i reflect back on my title clinical psychologist when i use that it's like everything that's gone before me you know the good days bad days the time I got my first assistant post the time I had some real stress in my vibe room was feeling really sick you know all of that and then the day when I graduated and I was wearing my funny little sorting hat um in the in the cathedral feeling so proud about to cross that stage having that moment that all goes with me you know I'm a clinical psychologist but I am years in the making it's a bit like that Royal Navy life but it is isn't it you know and I bring that wealth of experience all of those different

levels with me and that's what makes us quite unique as qualified psychologists is that we're able to bring multi-layered thinking and approach and even maybe sometimes multi-layered experience from different careers in to what we're doing with people and people have often said to me who've had therapists before oh okay you're, you're different. This is different. You know, it's not just counselling. So counselling absolutely has its place, doesn't it? But counselling psychology is different because it's the application of that to clinical settings and clinical populations.

And it is different, isn't it? It's quite an active process when you're with a psychologist. Absolutely. And, you know, it takes a long time with very in-depth formulations for specialists and looking at human behavioural dynamics and how that may impact mental health and our behaviour and what then ultimately keeps problems going and as you say there is something about quite often psychologists don't go straight into doing their training they have to do many different jobs and sometimes working night shifts and as you say you know all of those different jobs that we've done that's why I wanted

to write my section for your book because I thought actually people maybe want to know what the journey is like and how that shapes you as a practitioner so when someone's in front of me I'm drawing on not just my training but years and years and the character building stuff and the jobs I didn't want to do in the night shifts that I really didn't want to do and then go do lectures the next day but it's all part of it and I guess this for me there's something isn't there just about what sits well with you as an individual and we might never be able to overcome that there will always be individuals who might be outside of that framework but I think we can do our best to educate the public so they can make an informed choice they might decide to see someone based on what they do but that's very different than advertising

yourself as something you are not yeah so if you're fully aware what qualifications someone has or haven't got and you believe their testimonials and you're choosing to make that as an informed decision absolutely fine and we really hope that works well for you this is not a case of sour grapes this is a case of communicating to the public um you know what to look for and that people may not be as they seem and it's that for me it comes down to risk background and doing risk assessments every patient i see i'm looking at what's helping and what's not helping in terms of risk assessment. And people who have not gone through psychology training, you cannot take that as given. So somebody who's coming through groups, and the problem

with unregulated and unqualified psychologists is that they can be running groups. And because I was saying before, the kind of modalities, treatment modalities have changed people are running whatsapp mental health groups and running facebook groups is that what happens when someone gets missed because they don't have that background they don't have that ability to risk assist or they don't have the ability to think about how they even would and that for me is something that really sets up on his path because our you know we will always have a good robust framework around anything we do, whether it's community work, for me whether it's community work, or paid client work, it's exactly the same framework it's about.

At the end of the day, keeping my patients safe, my clients safe, as well as supporting them in their problems. And to me that's what differentiates us. Yeah, absolutely. And if someone doesn't need to be seen with a risk framework then absolutely they can be seen elsewhere you know it's stepping down to the most appropriate service um but it's being robot you know and being honest with people about that so sometimes come people will come to me and i'm like i don't actually think you need me you know i think

um i may be more money than you need to spend, actually. But they're still saying, well, I want to see you because I know of you or I believe that you can help me. And I say, well, I can. But it's being honest, isn't it, about, you know, what you can offer, what you're good at. And there are other options available there sometimes as well. Absolutely you know let's talk money there's a huge difference in pay between certain types of therapists counselors psychologists coaches and to the public that must be really confusing and i imagine at times very overwhelming if you are struggling with something like depression or anxiety for example so some people go to therapy or go to coaches because they're looking for kind of life changes or slightly different things than those that might be in a slightly more risky or more vulnerable situation

so how do you know what are the differences and psychologists are usually slightly more expensive than other therapists and counselors for the most part and it's kind of educating the public as to why and i guess there's something there isn't it if someone's using a title with the kind of aim of getting paid more money that's really unethical you know doesn't sit well with me at all yeah I hear you I hear you um we could probably moan on about this for ages but this isn't it's not the function it's not a sour grapes um episode it's an information episode and an overview of you and your important work could you tell us a little bit about your conversation starter project and how you got it started so my project was a really i would say is was a really small community project um to help people connect and manage

emotional well-being after the pandemic um but actually it has a wider remit now so the idea is that it's a free community resource where adults over 18 can come, walk in nature, so we walk in local parks where we know, from a neuroscience perspective, we process the emotions much differently, or much more different, a little bit of that bit, much more different when you are walking and talking in nature.

But it's a really robust framework with a very simple model for the attendees. So there's a lot of risk assessment, there's a really robust framework with a very simple model for the attendees so there's a lot of risk assessment there's a safeguarding framework in place so that everyone can come and have a really safe experience but to the user it's free you turn up you have different walks at different times and different localities you turn up you talk there's no format you don't have to talk about a specific topic and it just works so we've been going a year and it's just getting bigger and bigger and the idea is we'd like to replicate the model across more and more localities and train people up to be able to deliver the model and again i'm about reducing

barriers and stigma so sometimes if we know we've got to go somewhere and be there exactly on time that can be a barrier especially if you have anxiety so you can come late you don't have to come on time we walk the same route so you can join us whenever you can leave whenever so it fits in with the other things you're doing so it's an anchor for the week for people it tackles loneliness we've already had people reduce rates of anxiety reduce rates of depression you know reduce rates of social anxiety as well off the back of all those lockdowns and not knowing how to talk to people so it's a really lovely thing to be involved in it makes me feel good being able to do that i have a wonderful team of volunteers now which is just incredible who give their time for free every single week multiple times a week

um and hopefully it'll continue you know i can reach more people doing community work as well it's just my clinic work and that's why i do it I love that it's so inspiring and I know when you first started I can't remember if it was 10 o'clock or 11 o'clock on a Wednesday but you'd be there and we'd be pouring with rain and you're like all right I've got to go now I'm off out and come rain come shine come whatever heat waves, we are there. And I think that's what people like. People take ownership of the group. So every person that comes along, you don't have to come every week, which is also why

it works. You come when you need it. For the most part, people come quite regularly, but some people just dip in and out. Some people use it as a foundation to other things as well. So we have the formal pathways now with local agencies which is fantastic um so sometimes that helps people get back into work while they're off work physical health issues as well sometimes because the walking gentle walking can help people who are recovering from all sorts of things um and it's just really lovely to do it's really yeah I never walk away feeling like it's a chore and that has to be something.

Oh, that's golden, isn't it? When you feel like you're, you know, I'd say you're doing it for free, but you have been anyway, you know. But, you know, it feels like it's giving to you as well as, you know, giving to others. That's where you know that you're doing something good. Absolutely. Compassion for others is evidence-based to help our individual well-being. Sobeing so you know the time that i invest in thinking about others and how the group can develop is actually really good for my well-being as well yeah yeah brilliant tara it's been such a pleasure

speaking with you um and let's just recap then so people are concerned that somebody is perhaps claiming to be something that they're not um is there a good first step a good way of investigating what their qualifications might be i often have a little look on linkedin to see what's in their education section is that a good idea so it depends there's lots of different platforms so i wrote a blog on this recently actually so one of the things i've said is often you know have those conversations a robust ethical practitioner will not mind discussing their qualifications with you and they should even signpost you i show all my patients here i am go look me up you know this is where i am this is where you go if you have an issue

with what they do um so look them up on the HCPC website, ask them what their qualifications are, who's their professional body, even just asking that question will sometimes give you a huge indicator of what's coming next and talk to them about your concerns and to me I always think sometimes difficult conversations are needed because it comes to you and your well-being and you're passing your money. So we're talking about practitioners who are working in private factories here. You are part of your money to see them. You have a right to know your students are young, who's ethical. But have a look. A psychologist who has a first degree can call themselves a psychologist, but that's very different from being a qualified and

regulated psychologist off in the mental health service to the public so they should have doctoral level qualifications we use the term or equivalent so some people who've been practicing quite a long time will have a master's degree and then a diploma in psychology but they will talk you through that you don't have to go and look that up they will talk you know and if they don't want to talk about it that to me is always a big red flag yeah absolutely thank you so much for your time um is there a good way for people to be able to connect with you if they should like to i'm on twitter so i'm at chirillo

doctor um and i am on www.drtara.co.uk could you help us spell could you help us spell how we look for you on Twitter, if that's okay, Tara? I know. So it's at Chirillo, capital C-I-R-I-L-L-O, and then capital D, lowercase r. Lovely. Thank you very much. Thank you for coming along today, despite the 40-degree heat. You may now go and recline with an icy drink. I'm going to get a melt.

Yes. Thank you for joining me tara thank you thank you thank you for listening i hope you found it a really useful interesting engaging listen tara is certainly a bit of an inspiration for me what do you think about using the term psychologist do Do you think it should be protected? Have you stumbled across people who are using the title without possibly the necessary backing behind them? What are your thoughts? Do come and discuss this with me over on the Facebook group, the Aspiring Psychologist Community with Dr. Marianne Trent. That is where lots of good stuff happens and it's totally free to join. So come and do that, won't you? In the meantime, thank you so much for listening.

And I'm looking forward to connecting with you again very soon. The next episode of the podcast will be available for you from 6am on Monday, but yeah, it will be here for you whenever you're ready. Please do subscribe on your chosen podcast platform. And if you're watching on YouTube, subscribe there too. If you're listening on Apple, please do take a moment to rate and review. It really is appreciated. Thank you for being part of my world and I'll catch up with you very soon. Bye. Thank you. It's the Clinical Psychologist Collective. Boom. If you're looking to become a psychologist,

then let this be your guide. With this podcast at your side, you'll be on your way to being qualified. It's the Aspiring Psychologist Podcast. With Dr. Marianne Trent. My name's Jana and I'm a trainee psychological well-being practitioner. I read the Clinical Psychologist Collective book. I found it really interesting about all the different stories and how people got to become a clinical psychologist it just amazed me how many different routes there are to get there and there's no perfect way to become one and this kind of filled me of confidence that no I'm not doing it wrong and put less pressure on myself so if you're feeling a bit uneasy about becoming a clinical psychologist I'd

definitely recommend this just to put yourself at ease and everything will be okay. But trust me you will not put the book down once you start.