The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast - Why Soft Skills Matter More Than Qualifications

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hi, I'm Max and a work as an assistant psychologist in the Learning Disability Service in West Yorkshire. Like most people working in psychology, I'm slowly but surely working myself up to that seemingly impossible goal of getting onto the clinical doctorate. With that angle in mind, I thought I'd have a look at what's out there and see what books might be helpful for this. I came across Marianne's book, The Clinical Psychologist Collective, and decided that this would be a great for me to help me on my journey. I found Marianne's book really informative, most insightful. I especially liked how the stories reassured me that you don't need to be academically perfect to become a psychologist, and that as long as you have good interpersonal skills, such

Starting point is 00:00:48 as compassion and empathy, you will get there. I would highly recommend this book to all aspiring psychologists, nor so those who want to know a bit more about the world of clinical psychology and maybe want to work in that field one day. What if one of the biggest mistakes we make in our careers is assuming that experience always beats fresh thinking. Because some of the most valuable things you can bring to a team may not be the things you've learned over decades. They might be your curiosity, your perspective and your ability to connect with others. In this episode, clinical psychologist Cliff Hawkins and I are taking a deep dive into soft skills and how they might just be the difference that makes the difference when it comes to psychology, work and life.

Starting point is 00:01:38 Hi, welcome along to psychology actually. I am Dr. Marianne Trent, qualified clinical psychologist, and I'm joined by fellow qualified clinical psychologist Cliff Hawkins. Hi, Cleve. Hello Marianne. Thanks for having me. Thank you for being here and thank you. We first got chatting, I think, on LinkedIn. And it was a really interesting idea that actually whether we are to caught up in the idea of how long you've been qualified or what your experiences are and whether we should be thinking it in a different way about that? Can you tell us a bit more clear? Although it did make me think back to my NHS days and thinking if I had an assistant or trainee psychologist working with me, I'd probably be involving that person in the work, whereas because

Starting point is 00:02:29 the piece of work, I was commissioned to do it independently by myself. I didn't have that facility open to me. And I do miss the opportunity to work with assistants and trainees psychologists because they bring so much more to the party. And I've always found that I learned from them, at least as much as they were learning from me. Yeah, absolutely. Just before we hit record, I was saying that one of my supervisors during my trainee years had just said, I really love it when we get trainees and when we get new assistants

Starting point is 00:03:01 So that we've got that energy, that new influx of ideas, new ideas of things that are working in other departments that I'm not familiar with or just almost giving us that permission to push the envelope a little bit and bring that and to not think about it as just a top-down service where the knowledge is only ever imparted from above. And I guess if we've got people that might be listening in earlier in their career to think actually maybe I've got stuff that maybe I have

Starting point is 00:03:35 you know, I might not be a qualified psychologist for years but I've got, you know, relatable transferable skills that these other people in the team might not have and that they might think of me as an asset. Yes, absolutely yes. Yeah, I think it is it is difficult particularly for people trying to break into the NHS because the NHS traditionally is a very bureaucratic and indeed patriarchical organization, a very old-fashioned organization in how it's built up and how it's developed. And so there can be a risk of assuming that if someone has simply been there longer than anyone else, that they must be the best qualified for a particular job. And of course, we know from the real world that that isn't necessarily the case.

Starting point is 00:04:23 Yeah, it's making me think about a couple of things, really, during my trainee years. And obviously if you're doing the assistant psychologist route, then you're used to knowing that you scored, you know, first or second best to be able to get that highly competitive job. And you've usually met the person who's going to be your supervisor or manager at the interview. So there's some aspect of having been, you know, hand selected and chosen. that's not usually the case if you then go on placement as a trainee. And often you are sometimes called the trainee or the trainees. And it's that idea that you don't really have an identity of your own and that you could have been a puzzle piece that's just slotted in.

Starting point is 00:05:16 And I mean, I think that's really tricky. Yes. Well, it reminds me a bit of the sitcom. Amandaland where the parents at the school aren't talked about or two by their name. They're just Damien's mother or Adrian's father. They don't have an identity of their own outside being a parent. And I think as you say, the NHS is quite good at putting people into boxes and not really thinking about who people are as individuals and what they might be bringing. I think it's the idea that that you are valued and you have value and that you matter even if even if you haven't

Starting point is 00:06:02 necessarily been chosen for that particular role or service and empowering yourself to think well what can I learn what can I demonstrate and I think it is really tricky during training because I don't know what your experiences are like and how you've seen this play out in your own training and other people's but I certainly, when I was in my intellectual disabilities placement, I was on my third placement in my second year and very much felt I should know more. Like, I'm going out to people's homes, I'm going out to kind of residential facilities as, you know, the trainee, clinical psychologist who's going to really help them with their problems. But I had never worked in a service for people

Starting point is 00:06:52 with intellectual disabilities. And so it was really, I think, a very humbling experience because I had to just think about, I guess, my soft skills, my transferable skills. And it's very interesting to me that by the time I finished that six-month placement, the team wanted to be able to create a job for me to have me back kind of when I was qualified. Unfortunately, the timeline didn't align, as NHS jobs often don't. But that I think really did me the power of good to think, well, maybe it isn't the magic things that I might have in my toolbox that matter. Maybe I guess I'm enough and it isn't just the things I've done that make me a good enough trainee and will make me a good enough qualified psych. Well, I think you make an extremely important point there, Marian.

Starting point is 00:07:56 And I think it's interesting that we refer to certain attributes as soft skills. And the implication can be that they're somehow easier or less important than the hard skills. Although actually in my experience, the hard skills are easier to learn. So, for example, I've been really struggling to get a plumber. it's quite easy to get a plumber who has the hard skills, who knows how to fix taps and things like that, what I find it really difficult is to find a plumber who has certain soft skills,

Starting point is 00:08:30 such as calling me back when they say they're going to. And it might sound a trivial thing, but I'm a busy person. I don't have time to wait around for a plumber to decide when that person will come and work with me. I need someone who will come, who will work to my agenda. And so I think we often underestimate the soft skills. And the danger there is that aspiring psychologists and even qualified psychologists can neglect soft skills.

Starting point is 00:09:02 And I often say to trainees and assistants, the most important thing is to be reliable, which means being on time, which means keeping your promises, not arriving at 10 past 9 for a 9 o'clock meeting. It doesn't matter how many degrees you've got, people will get irritated if you're consistently late for meetings. Yeah, because it doesn't feel like you've been appropriately respected, I think. And it does get people's backs up, doesn't it? When I've worked in teams when someone's consistently late or, I guess, goes out for many, many cigarette breaks. And then other people in the team maybe don't smoke or only smoke outside of work hours. It's kind of hard to have that team harmony and resentment can build, can it, very much so.

Starting point is 00:09:54 Yes, and I think a lot of the people we work with are very disempowered. I remember watching a drama, a play that had been put on by people with intellectual disabilities a number of years ago. And it was, the play itself was of a case conference, a multidisciplinary meeting. And it started and then one of the actors came in breathlessly a few minutes later and said, oh, sorry, I'm late. I'm the social worker. And of course, everyone in the audience laughed because the stereotype was, well, the social worker will be late. And so although it was making a comedy point, it was a very serious point as well that these people with intellectual disabilities were used to not being respected at all. And although it was a

Starting point is 00:10:41 social worker in that scenario. In my experience, unfortunately, it could just as easily have been a clinical psychologist. Yeah, I think I probably have a natural tendency to be a bit later, but I make sure that I am not late because I was raised by a late mother and would drop me at swimming lessons. And I might be on time for the swimming lesson, but she wouldn't be on time to come and get me, because she was like, oh, I did this or I went to do this. And she kind of wouldn't stay and be present. And I was used to being dropped off to work late or being picked up from work late.

Starting point is 00:11:23 And I don't want that to have other people have that experience of me. And I don't want my children, I guess it's how trauma works, isn't it? I don't want my children to have that experience of, oh, well, they're always late. I didn't enjoy that, you know, because when, I guess, and I guess this is interesting for reflection on clients attending services. If they are younger, if they're minors, you know,

Starting point is 00:11:52 that doesn't reflect on them always, does it? It's often about who is bringing them. So I have to make sure that I factor in the extra time it takes to do the things that we'll often forget we have to do, like find our shoes, get our bag, make sure we've got our phone. or a charger and brush my teeth and look in the mirror to check my hair's looking all right. So I have to almost make an active decision to tack that extra bit on because it was always that bit that my mum would be late by. And I just don't want that. I'm not willing to continue to perpetuate that cycle.

Starting point is 00:12:30 But also I'm not willing to have people hold me in mind like that. Okay. So we thought about kind of soft skills and how they might be very much underrated. Are there any other kind of bits and pieces that you think we might be overlooking, clear? Well, one of the soft skills that I think does get underestimated is, is Carpe deum sees the day. Lots of times in my career and I appreciate it helps that I've got the privilege of being white and male and sounding middle class. Lots of times I've applied for things and I've got things and I've been surprised to think, well, I was the only person apparently who applied, even though I'm sure there are other people out there more qualified. So, for example, last week I bumped into a support worker who I found out had a psychology degree and I said, okay, send me an email and I'll see what I can do to help you.

Starting point is 00:13:29 Now I'm used to doing that and I'm used to not hearing from those people. And I always think, well, what an opportunity they're potentially missing. That I, you know, I know lots of people. I could potentially be helpful. Now, as it turned out, this particular graduate has emailed me with a very, a very, a very appropriate email. And so that will make me inclined to give that person a bit of my time. And who knows how helpful that might be? And I think often people don't have the confidence.

Starting point is 00:14:02 And again, I appreciate I have multiple privileges, which perhaps have imbued me with a certain confidence that other people might not have. However, going after opportunities, not letting opportunities pass one by, I think it's a crucial skill, given how competitive we know it is to become a professional psychologist, any type of professional psychologist. Yeah, and it kind of making me think of when I work with people contact me and say, how can I, you know, get my foot in the door? And I think if someone's already working, like, as an HCA, so a healthcare assistant on a ward or doing bank work, I'm always like, well, if you're already working, you know, doing one-to-one obes or kind of regularly working with a particular client who you know is open to clinical psychology, can you start to say to the psychologists, would I be able to come into the MDT formulation

Starting point is 00:14:57 when you're discussing this client? Because then you're getting that experience of seeing how this is applied in reality, but also that you might be able to feed in your kind of examples and insights and reflections of this person. And they might really value you that because you might be seeing things differently than they are. And it's not just that you are, trying to take from that experience. It really is that actually we think you've got really interesting insight and you might benefit our team discussions, but unless you think to kind of say that you'd be happy to do that,

Starting point is 00:15:36 you'd be willing to do that, that opportunity might not necessarily come directly to you. Yeah, yes, because people like you and me have got limited time and we're unlikely to chase people who might, be asking us for things. It might be necessary for people to chase us and that might make the difference. Someone who is assertive enough to, for example, send the email after after approaching me and to send an appropriate email as well, an email that makes me think, yes, this person, I think will make a good clinical psychologist in the future. So I'm prepared to put myself out to

Starting point is 00:16:15 give them some help for free. Whereas if someone either didn't email me or it was perhaps a badly written or badly spelled email, then I'd be less likely to give that help. Yeah, I think it's about making it bespoke and personalised, isn't it? So in this days of kind of AI and chat GPT, it's kind of easy to tell whether this feels like it's something that's been written by a person. And so just really empower yourself, to be yourself, to use yourself kind of as that intervention as part of the tool to get you what you want. I think it's also really important to hold in mind the idea that you're not an extra in your own life. Kind of we should be a key player, but to bear in mind that everyone else is the kind of the leading actor in their own lives. and they don't always have time to fully consider everyone else in the cast.

Starting point is 00:17:16 And so it's kind of your job every now and they're, woohoo, I'm here and remind people, but also know that it's okay to ask to have your needs met. And then that gives people a chance to either meet them or or politely decline that opportunity. Yeah. Okay, so we're getting a really nice collection of these soft skills. Any others, Cliff? I think another one is to keep promises. For example, if I'm asked to deliver a report by a certain date, I will deliver it by that date. There's no doubting that that will happen. And thinking back to people earlier in their careers, that might mean if someone asks to receive some data from you, if you're doing some data analysis, again, get it done by when you say you're going to, because that may be your one opportunity. to impress that individual or that maybe that you'll want opportunity to surprise that individual.

Starting point is 00:18:15 Sometimes when people say to me, well, yes, Cliff, I'll let you have that by a certain date. Unfortunately, sometimes I'm surprised. I'm more surprised when they do let me have it by a certain date because I'm used to people always providing things late. Again, coming back to the plumber, I'm more used to plumbers not ringing me back or not getting back to me by the date, they say, so when someone, does, it's a nice surprise. So we're not necessarily talking about who's the most intellectual person to be a psychologist. It might seem boring, but the most reliable person can actually be the

Starting point is 00:18:52 most useful person to the people for whom we're working. Yeah, can't it just. It's reminding me that I've promised to get some quotes back to a journalist today about a certain thing. And I've I've had to add that to my own Trello board and set myself a reminder because it's important for me to be able to do that, but also I've said I'm going to do that and so I want to be able to do that. Yeah, very much so. Okay, Cliff, are there any kind of models or ways of kind of holding all of this stuff in mind? Well, one thing that I've been lucky enough to do in my career is to spend some time completely out of healthcare for a number of years working as a management consultant in industry and also as part of that time I did an MBA and although I now work primarily

Starting point is 00:19:42 clinically I still do work organisational as well and even when I'm working clinically I bring that organisational experience and training and learning to bear so for example there's a model known as the the seven S's developed by the McKinsey management consultant. and you reminded me of it, Marianne, when you talked about soft skills. And with that 7S model, which people can Google, there are three what are called hard Ss is. And that's the strategy that an organisation has that then leads to the structure of that organization and the systems that enable that structure to work. And those three hard essays are all vital, of course.

Starting point is 00:20:27 However, they won't be sufficient for any organisation unless the organisation pays at least the same amount of attention to the four softesses. And the first softnesses is staff or could be people, getting the right people in the right place at the right time. And making sure that those staff have the right skills. They might come with the right skills or we might have to develop those skills. And then what about shared values? How are those people fitting into the organisation or how does the organisation evolve to take account of new shared values? And what's the style of the organisation? What's the style of the person? So, for example, someone who's going to work with me will have to be reliable. I'm not interested in flaky. I don't want brilliant flaky people. I want steady reliable people. And so I think remembering those seven s is, it's it's crucial for anyone leading an organisation. However, it's also good to bear in mind for someone at the start of their career as well,

Starting point is 00:21:31 because I think at any stage of our career, paying attention to each of those seven S's and thinking, where do my strengths lie? What can I bring into an organisation? One doesn't have to be good at all seven. However, I guess anyone with a psychology degree is going to be good at some of those seven. Yeah, it's making me think that would make a really nice kind of way of, I don't know, interacting

Starting point is 00:22:00 in an interview, especially for that, you know, the end bit that's always a bit awkward, have you got any questions or have you got anything else you want to say? And actually being able to demonstrate some of those softer skills and using that model, because I always think it's really nice in an answer to be able to weave in like a little bit of theory or, you know, demonstrate how you can use this complex psychological knowledge. So I think that would be a great tip, an idea for someone. Thank you so much for your time in speaking with us, Cliff. I've loved it.

Starting point is 00:22:31 Where can we learn more about you and your work? If you go to my website, you'll find some things in the blog section of it, which you might find interesting and a whole stack of other stuff. My website is www.cliff Hawkins Psychology, all one word.com. Cliff Hawkins Psychology.com. Thank you so much. I'll make sure that I link all of that in the description and the show notes. But thank you again for your time in speaking with me. You're welcome. Thanks, Marianne. Thank you. Thank you so much again to my guest, Cliff Hawkins. Please do go and follow him over on LinkedIn. If you are curious about the psychology career journeys

Starting point is 00:23:16 of clinical psychologists and other HCPC psychologists, I think you are you. think you will really like the Clinical Psychologist Collective book. And if you have read that or any of my other books, I'd be so grateful if you consider leaving me an Amazon or Goodreads review. If you are an aspiring psychologist yourself and you love the nuance and the reflection and the ability to formulate that being around clinical psychologists gives you, I think you'll really love the aspiring psychologist membership, which you can join from just £30 a month with no minimum term. And the membership really does get real results for people. Check out my Google reviews for the aspiring psychologist website. At the time of recording this, I've just had the

Starting point is 00:24:07 10th person this academic cycle confirm that they have been offered at least one place on the doctorate in clinical psychology. So they are going to be trainee clinical psychologists. and we are not a big membership, so that is a massive figure. If you would like to be in that position next year, please do consider joining us. There's no minimum term you can join from just £30 a month, and I will look forward to supporting you. And if you've enjoyed this episode, I think you will really enjoy this one too. I'm chatting with Dr Adam McCartney, a qualified educational psychologist about well-being at work. and how we can reduce burnout.

Starting point is 00:24:52 I think you'll love it. My name's Yana and I'm a trainee psychological well-being practitioner. I read the Clinical Psychologist Collective book. I found it really interesting about all the different stories and how people got to become a clinical psychologist. It just amazed me how many different routes there are to get there and there's no perfect way to become one. And this kind of filled me of confidence that,

Starting point is 00:25:27 no, I'm not doing it wrong and put less pressure on myself. So if you're feeling a bit uneasy about becoming a clinical psychologist, I'd definitely recommend this just to put yourself at ease and everything will be okay. But trust me, you will not put the book down once you start.

The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast - Why Soft Skills Matter More Than Qualifications

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