The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast - Why you should apply for research roles - clinical research practitioner

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hi there, it's Marianne here. Before we dive into today's episode, I want to quickly let you know about something exciting that's happening right now. If you've ever wondered how to create income that works for you, rather than constantly trading your time for money, then you'll love the Race to Recurring Revenue Challenge with my business mentor, Lisa Johnson. This challenge is designed to help you build sustainable income streams. And whether you're an aspiring psychologist, a mental health professional, or in a completely different field,

Starting point is 00:00:32 the principles can work for you. There are also wonderful prizes to be won directly by Lisa herself. And if you join the challenge by my link, you can be in with a chance of winning a one-to-one hours coaching with me, Dr. Marianne Trent. Do you want to know more? Of course you do. Head to my link tree, Dr. Marianne Trent, or check out my social media channels, or send me a quick DM and I'll get you all the details. Right, let's get on with today's episode. Coming up today, we are looking at why you should apply for that research role. I am

Starting point is 00:01:07 talking to Jess, who works in a research capacity for the NHS, and she is guiding us through all her top tips and insight, wisdom and brilliance in the field of research. It's a really captivating lesson and one that you can't help but learn from and feel inspired by. I hope you find it so useful. Welcome along to the Aspiring Psychologist podcast. I am Dr. Marianne Trent and I'm a qualified clinical psychologist. Now, when I was an aspiring psychologist, I was looking at how to tick off my different areas of expertise. And one of the ones that felt a lot trickier for me to do was gaining research experience and feeling confident and capable of discussing

Starting point is 00:02:00 research, handling research, dissecting research, planning research, all of that. And I came across a LinkedIn profile, which absolutely piqued my intrigue. And so I invited the profile owner onto the podcast so that we could learn more about her role. I think it is a fascinating episode. And I hope you will do too. Hope it inspires you to do whatever it is that you want to do from your psychology degree. That is what this podcast is all about. Please do like and fling a comment below as well if you're watching. I hope you'll find it useful and I'll look forward to catching up with you on the other side. Hi Jess, just want to welcome you along to the podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. Yeah, thank you

Starting point is 00:02:45 for having me. I appreciate it. Oh, absolutely my pleasure. So we got connected on LinkedIn, didn't we? And I was like, I've never met anyone with the title clinical research practitioner before. And that's how we thought it might be a useful podcast episode. But before we go into thinking about what your job is and what the role involves let's hear a little bit about you and what your journey has been in mental health so far. Yeah so it's kind of been up and down really I've been in quite a few different jobs I've done some volunteering so um obviously I've done uni I did my bachelor's and master's in forensic psychology um I knew I've always wanted to go in in mental health it was

Starting point is 00:03:32 just kind of the right pathway into it for me um I did volunteering with a company called community led initiatives I did that for quite a while whilst I was studying because I couldn't obviously have a full-time job and that was helping ex-offenders reintegrate back into the community and then after that I did some teaching assistant roles in different schools across Manchester and then I was a teaching assistant in an alternative provision of a high school and that was an interesting job to say the least it was a fantastic place to work and then now um obviously I'm doing the job that I'm doing now which is working in clinical research studies in mental health amazing you sound like you've had a very

Starting point is 00:04:16 busy few years and drawing and developing on lots of different skills yeah it was it was one of them things I kind of didn't know what I wanted to go into with mental health so I thought if I kind of get as much experience as I can it'll help me inform where I want to go so I don't you know end up doing something for a couple years I'm not really that interested in and um yeah I just kind of wanted to do everything before I settled on what I you know actually wanted to do so it was good getting all that different type of experiences. Amazing and did you just sort of decide now's the time to do something a bit different or was the opportunity kind of offered to you? How did your current role come about? Yeah the job that I'm doing now it's a bit crazy when I think about how I actually got into

Starting point is 00:05:05 it so I never thought of going into research I didn't even realize it was a a job role I know it sounds a bit crazy but you don't really think do you that research is a viable route for you to go into especially at like an entry level um and I just in my old job I knew it was kind of time to move on I'd got the experience that I wanted from that um and so I was just looking around applying for a few different jobs that job role came up and I think it was a couple months I want to say two months after something like that and they said do you want an interview and by that time I'm scratching my head thinking yes I can't really remember what it's for but absolutely I would like an interview

Starting point is 00:05:45 and yeah obviously applied for it did the interview I really didn't think I was going to get the job so I kind of just went into it thinking you know just be myself and you know if I get the job fantastic if I don't I kind of already had the expectation that I might not get it so yes I feel very lucky that I've been the expectation that I might not get it so yeah it's I feel very lucky that I've been able to get this job and get the experience in research and meet all the different people that I've met because you know a lot of the people that I speak to say that research is one of the hardest places to get experience other than when you do your education in uni so yeah I'm very very grateful to be in the role that I'm in now.

Starting point is 00:06:25 Yeah it really is and I was reflecting upon that as you spoke really that often when people come to me as part of the membership or even with questions about kind of professional roots in psychology it's the research that feels like it's a bit of an Achilles heel that it feels like they need developing and if you're not working in a trust that seems to do much research or your supervisor's not involved in research or you haven't done a master's it can definitely feel like it's a diff a more difficult competence to kind of thicken your thicken your experience in yeah i completely agree um especially for people that want to go into the d clean and things things like that I genuinely didn't realise how valuable the work that I'm doing now is for the rest of my

Starting point is 00:07:10 you know my career really so yeah it's definitely a fantastic place to get into if you can and if there's jobs available out there but it's just knowing where to look as well isn't it so yeah I definitely would would say that if you can get in in this way um then do so but with the job that I do the ACRP so um that is it's quite a new role um it kind of works in conjunction with a research assistant so um I think I'm getting ahead of myself here with a question later on down the line but but I'll carry on anyway. Yeah, so I help recruit into clinical studies and get them through the consent process, do the baseline measures, which is a few different questionnaires to measure what we want at the beginning of the study.

Starting point is 00:07:59 So we can compare at a later date, you know, to see how effective the treatment might have been or it might not have been. And the research assistant then does like the follow-ups and things like that um but yeah so I completely forgot what my point was but that's what I do. Okay so are you sort of supporting with what we learn about in research as being the gold standard of research which is randomized controls trials are you sort of doing all of that you know assigning people and getting them through the onboarding processes for that yep doing all the good stuff um so I liaise with like clinical services whichever one is you know deemed suitable for the research that we're currently working on um kind of integrate myself within that team I screen off their waiting list or through like referrals and then get people in I'm at the first point of contact with potential participants

Starting point is 00:08:51 then explain what the study is take them through the consent process obviously make sure they've had a amount of time away so they can have a think about if they want to take part and then yeah we do the consent and we will start on the baseline measures which again is i said it's just like a few different questionnaires to measure how they might be feeling so then we can compare at a later date um but as part of my job role i also have an additional um additional job role to this which is a study facilitator um and that basically means that I upload the recruitment data onto the system the CPMS system and then that directly affects the

Starting point is 00:09:34 funding that the study gets based on how many participants are put onto this database and that kind of job role comes with a whole other like little additional tasks which is liaising with the research office um making sure that the principal investigator who runs the study is aware of any like um updates on amendments that they might have put in and things like that so um it's it's a lot of responsibility but when you actually get into it like for me now when I first started it really overwhelmed me I thought you know am I capable of working at this level am I capable interacting with all these like you know top researchers and things like that but now that I'm in it it just it feels like second nature um so yeah I think it's definitely it seems to to me and you know probably to other

Starting point is 00:10:22 people that it's an intimidating job to go into but once you're in there and you kind of know how everything operates it's it's yeah it's just fantastic I I feel like I'm biased I have to big up my job role but truly it is a fantastic place to get into and to work for yeah it sounds amazing and I think what you're evidencing really nicely is you know when we do a role we just begin to become skilled at it and the things that might have sounded daunting like some of the phrases you were kind of punting out there like you know lead investigator and you know oh man but it just becomes commonplace to you whereas I remember when I kind of filled in my ethics forms for my doctorate research and you have to kind of call yourself the principal

Starting point is 00:11:12 investigator like oh I feel fraudulent like what I see is everything you're talking about and everything you're experiencing it really does you know set you up really well for anything you do in future even if it's your own research in future um but for helping you know in future you may be working in clinical services where a client's not sure about whether they should or shouldn't get involved in research and you can have a really helpful informed discussion with them to kind of discuss what that would involve yeah yeah and I mean it helps it helps as well being able to um be like embedded in some of the clinical teams so I've worked um within early intervention within this job role I've worked in the prison system

Starting point is 00:11:56 um I've worked in CAMHS I've worked in IAP services so not only do you get kind of a roundabout view of the services that you work in and how mental health services work in general but you also get to meet all these different people all these different practitioners and you're able to kind of bridge the gap between research and you know the people that are actually dealing with mental health as like the the I can't think of the the right phrase in like the first responders you know the people that are actually embedded in in helping the service users with you know whatever they might be be facing um because a lot of people i think they kind of don't really know much about research

Starting point is 00:12:37 or sometimes might not see the benefit of it um and it's nice being able to bridge the gap in between them both um so yeah yeah it sounds amazing i guess what i hadn't realized is just how many clinical populations you're being able to work with because of the changing nature of your research studies it sounds incredible and in terms of you know i'm often thinking about when people are getting feedback about their professional psychology applications you know and in the old days you used to get like you know more varied clinical experience more research experience needed you know more clinical experience needed like you're you're just like you're just ticking off all of those competencies you know so. There's less and less reasons why somebody would say, oh, not ready for this next stage of what you want.

Starting point is 00:13:29 But of course, you may choose to just stay where you are right now and work in research and become a principal researcher yourself. You know, it's not necessarily that it's always going to be, you know, a throughput job to then go on and do professional psychology but what you've evidenced beautifully is that once you've done a psychology degree it can take you in such a beautiful variety of directions yeah and i really think that the biggest piece of advice that i can give anybody that's on the same journey that i've been on is that even if you think you might not be eligible you don't meet the requirements for a job just go for it and truly don't stress about trying to get all the answers and give these you know textbook responses they just really want you to be yourself because if if you're interested in this type of work and you've got some kind of

Starting point is 00:14:23 relevant experience then go for it because you'd honestly be so shocked at the opportunities that you miss out through kind of thinking that you might not be ready you might not be good enough um and you know this is why when everybody asked me how I got into this role I like to kind of put in there that I didn't think I was going to get this job I didn't think that I would meet the requirements I thought it'd be too difficult for me especially because I'd never worked in research before and now that I'm in it like you said it's just fantastic the amount of different experiences I'm getting all within the same role my day-to-day is completely different all the time I've interacted with so many different people

Starting point is 00:15:05 professionals and different service users I've heard so many different stories um I've had to deal with like varying situations risk situations and I don't I think there's there's nothing more valuable than hands-on experience especially when you're working in these types of environments with the right support and obviously within research it's very, I mean, in most services it is. But especially within research, you've got to make sure you have like clinical cover. You've got to make sure that you've got people around you constantly to be able to say, have I dealt with this risk situation correctly? Should I have done this differently? You know, I said this to a participant that didn't particularly react very well like could I improve on this and um yeah it's it's definitely something

Starting point is 00:15:51 like like I keep saying um go into it if you can amazing thanks Jess that's so interesting and um I've got so many things I want to say to you next but it made it made me think about some research um I'd become aware of about gender and employability and the employment processes and something that was like um men are more likely to apply for jobs that they don't have all the clinical yes or they don't have all the essential personal criteria for in terms of the person spec but women are more likely to only apply if they're like 90 95 percent meeting the criteria and so that in that way you're more likely to get men in higher jobs because there's going to be more more men applying for those higher jobs exactly i as soon as you said that it made me think about i also saw a piece of research I don't know if it was the same one but it was about um pay rises and it said that men um often get pay rises more so

Starting point is 00:16:50 than women do because they ask for them and it really it struck a chord because I thought you know there's so many women out there that are missing out on these extremely fantastic opportunities because of things like that um and you know especially within mental health um not to say that men don't have an empathic side because they do but you know women they're just more in tuned that way and I think that just having that compassion and empathy would get you a lot farther in the the job process than you might think so um yeah if you don't meet all the the specification still absolutely go for it the worst they can say is no so you know absolutely I'm a massive advocate for go for it you've got nothing to lose oh I love that I love

Starting point is 00:17:41 that and you know I'm thinking well okay so if I for this job, I don't quite meet the spec for what is an interview going to be like for a research practitioner? They are going to rip me to shreds. They're going to ask me all sorts of difficult research questions. You know, what what was that process like for you? The interview process. So beforehand, I'd really built up in my own head um exactly what you said I thought it was going to be really tough I thought it was going to grill me on absolutely everything um it wasn't like that at all um I did a 10 minute presentation um I can't exactly remember what the question was but it was in a sense why is research important what value does it have um for the community and you know the wider um population so I did like a very brief

Starting point is 00:18:32 presentation on that and put a lot of research citations in there just to kind of show my knowledge um and then after that it was a question and answer but it was like it was obviously knowledge-based questions like you know if this happened how would you deal with this but it was very relaxed the people that I had on the panel I've worked with since getting the job and they were just themselves they were exactly the type of person that I've got to know them as after I you know got the role um so it was very relaxed very chilled out um because I was kind of my mind was running a mile a minute I had to keep asking them to repeat the question um and I really thought that would like go against me because I thought oh they're not they're gonna think that

Starting point is 00:19:16 I'm not listening or I'm not you know involved or anything like that but um yeah I was just myself because they kind of fostered this environment where I could be comfortable and that really helped me get the job but yeah so the the actual process itself um wasn't as daunting as I thought it was going to be I just built it up in my own head. It sounds like they um they were screening you for your soft skills and your kind of personability as much as as much as what you knew because obviously they know what sort of roles you're going to be in are you ever working people's homes or is it always in clinical settings no so I can work in people's homes but

Starting point is 00:19:56 it's just kind of discretion based personally I try not to do that. But if, you know, for example, if some people need that for whatever reason, they have mobility issues, they have kind of something that gives them a bit more anxiety about going out of the house, I will do that. But because I'm not clinically trained and because, you know, I'm kind of when I was new to the role, I was a bit more anxious about that but now um I'd feel a lot more comfortable doing it but it's mostly um mostly in the clinical services but we can I would I would say that you do have loads of clinical skills and training yeah um and all the stuff you said before about all the stuff you're working with, kind of young offenders and stuff like that, like that is definitely teaching you clinical skills. And yeah, you may not be you may not be yet professionally qualified, but I would say that you definitely have clinical skills. But this is the thing, and it's about trusting yourself, trusting your own judgment and the person ability and things like that I think it's took me

Starting point is 00:21:05 a long time in this job to kind of feel comfortable with that I am competent um it's kind of like remnants of you know feeling like imposter syndrome where I don't really well I do now but I didn't really trust that oh have I done this right have I done this right but with the um the experiences that I've had and the positions that I've like kind of been put in the environment um yeah it kind of forces you to know that you you're good at what you do you know what you're doing so um yeah it's just about learning to trust yourself as well I think that's one of the most difficult parts of the the journey into psychology like you know what you're doing so kind of give yourself more credit yeah for sure and even myself you know I've been qualified since 2011 you know and I still have that oh you're gonna be rambled you know and even when I'm doing this podcast I think oh people are gonna be like

Starting point is 00:22:01 oh Marianne's clinical skills there were a bit off. But, you know, as long as you do it with a good heart and you're not actively setting out to be, you know, putting someone at risk. Like I think, you know, and I think you need to be aware of everything you don't yet know. But, you know, it's feeling comfortable with the things that, you know, you're doing well enough, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree completely agree yeah and we can always learn something from observing our colleagues or our supervisors do something you know that's a really nice a really nice thing but we don't necessarily need to be daunted by that we could think about that as a learning opportunity yeah I mean yeah we do a lot of shadowing um in the in the services that I work in and that is where I kind of learn most of the skills that I have now kind of see how they would

Starting point is 00:22:54 react how would they deal with certain situations um and then obviously having somebody shadow me when I kind of then was on the journey to loan working but yeah they were that was probably one of the best learning experiences for me. Great and are they I'm assuming the NHS roles what sort of banding are the roles coming out at if that doesn't feel like too too improper a question to ask you that's absolutely fine i'm all for band and pay transparency um so what i'm working at is a band four um and a research assistant which is you know they they're what kind of what i touched on before they do like the follow-ups and things like that um they are mostly band four as well but some of them can be at band five um but yeah mine's at a band four.

Starting point is 00:23:52 Thank thank you I know that that will be a question that people are wondering so it's kind of yeah like I was I only ever made it to band four assistant psychologist um so it's kind of yeah similar kind of pay levels well the same yeah same pay levels yeah and is it only ever one research study at a time or were you constantly juggling different ones no absolutely not so I think at one time I was working on about five um at the moment I'm working on three um and they kind of they have um quarterly reviews of ACRP allocation so um they'll kind of say well this research unit needs two days of your time this research unit needs three days of your time and then they'll divvy it up between themselves so

Starting point is 00:24:42 um under one research unit for two days you could be working one day on one study one day on another study and then for the three days remaining you could work two days on one study and then the remaining day on another study um so it really just depends on your um time allocations to each study what study study needs are, and obviously how comfortable you are with the amount of work you're doing, and kind of managing your own time, but they're quite good with kind of keeping in constant contact through supervision, to see how you're getting on with things, is it too much, can you take on a little bit more um so yeah currently I'm working on three studies one of them is due to end in February so we're having talks at the minute about other studies that are coming

Starting point is 00:25:32 up that I can like become involved with brilliant thank you and are they are we what we're looking at like medication studies or therapy studies or does it really depend like all of these things and above and beyond and difference like what are we looking at? There is about eight research units but I only work with the non-medication trials I can't think of what the correct term is but mine's all intervention or therapy based so um I'm currently working on one called prospect which is um working within the prison system and that is looking at suicide prevention in prisons for men um I also work on something called relate which is um trialing cognitive analytical therapy for self-harm in step three IAP services and above

Starting point is 00:26:26 and then the final one I work on is called BAE which is working in CAM services so that that's like quite a big trial it's kind of all over the country um looking at behavioral activation in youths I love that they've called it BAE because like youths are all about their BAEs but like actually it's kind of behavioral activation that's why they've called it bay because like youths are all about their bays but like actually it's kind of behavioral activation that's why they've called it bay is that right every yeah every time that I say that to people they give me like a bit of a side eye and they're like bay as in like like like bay like boyfriend girlfriend I'm like no no no no no I don't mean that amazing so not every trust will have a research unit it's is it sort of localized I do think most trusts do have their own research unit yeah um okay it just depends

Starting point is 00:27:18 like how big it is and whether they liaise with like different trusts so for example um on bay they it's run by gmmh so under research and innovation but we work with pennine we work with um yorkshire research innovation um and kind of all over so it's kind of a joint a joint effort i suppose perfect thank you is there anything i haven't asked you that you think would be useful for our listeners and our watchers to know or understand about your role? Yeah I think one of the biggest things about this job role it really is about time management and especially saying no if you can do something so I know at first I kind of really struggled with uh saying no I don't know how to do this um no I can't give you any more of my time I

Starting point is 00:28:11 you know I don't have any time to give you so it's about kind of yeah just kind of sticking up for yourself um some people might not struggle with that but I know I did um it's got to the point now where they're like oh can you take on a little bit more and I'm like no no I've got too many things to be doing I'm busy enough as it is um but yeah I think that's that's um one of the biggest time management definitely something to to be aware of that's really empowering and actually I often ask people at the end of podcast episodes what's your tip for reducing burnout as a in a in mental health and aspiring psychologists I think that's it you know you're allowed to say no or if someone says well this is really important this needs doing you're kind of looking at well I can't do all of this so could you help me look at my priorities to work out

Starting point is 00:28:59 which which other one I can put down because I can't do all of this there's only one of me yeah exactly and I think it's also taking advantage of the support that's within your job itself um because obviously within mental health you get your own kind of internal hub that will will help you out with whatever you might be uh you know you might be needing I think it's just kind of trying to reduce the stigma around well you know I might not have it as bad as the people that I'm working with so I have nothing to worry about or I have nothing to complain about because I know I've experienced that before you're hearing a lot about all these really traumatic things that people experienced and then when you kind of you can look at your own life and it pales in comparison

Starting point is 00:29:46 and you think well you know mine the way I'm feeling I'm burnt out from work it's not as bad but you know it you need to look after yourself to be able to then look after the people that you're working with so you know manage your time well make sure that you can say no to people when it's you know when it's needed and access the support that people are offering you and that you job and the trust itself can give you because I just think it's so important it really is and it's good to know that you still get supervision around that because it can be so containing especially when you're trying to learn about an area yeah and of course what we know is that supervision you know its primary function is is client protection and safety and that's incredibly important in the role that you're doing yeah definitely I agree I get supervision um every

Starting point is 00:30:34 week so it's you know it's fantastic for me I'm able to get the support I need on such a consistent and regular basis and it's why it's been it's not been easy but it's been much more manageable um to kind of ease into the job manage my own time loan work and all that kind of stuff um it's really helped me settle into it like quite well good it's been an absolute pleasure speaking with you and thank you so much for helping illuminate our audience about about research and how it doesn't need to be scary and how you absolutely can and should apply for those research jobs yes definitely please do and yeah thank you for having me it's been brilliant being on being on here oh you're so welcome thank you so

Starting point is 00:31:17 much for your time jess yeah no worries thank you how incredible. And just after I stopped record on that episode with Jess, I said that I hadn't wanted to ask her publicly what her career plans were in case she upset her employees. But she said, I'd been all right with that. So she said that originally she wanted to do forensic psychology. Actually, now she's really considering clinical psychology and she feels like she's building good skills and experiences there. So, you know, I love how versatile a psychology degree can be. And I know Jessie's was a forensic psychology degree, she said at the beginning. But, you know, it can take us in so many different glorious directions.

Starting point is 00:31:59 So whatever stage of your career you are at, as you listen to this or watch this thank you for spending the time with me thank you for trusting me to help you learn more about this really important area if you'd like me to help further your knowledge and expertise even more do please consider coming along and joining the aspiring psychologist membership which you can do from just 30 pounds a month do also check out the aspiring psychologist collective Psychologist Collective book and the Clinical Psychologist Collective book. And I will look forward to catching up with you for our next episode of the podcast, which will be along for you from 6am on Monday. Take care. then let this be your guide with this podcast at your side you'll be on your way to being qualified it's the aspiring psychologist podcast with dr marianne My name's Jana and I'm a trainee psychological well-being practitioner. I read the Clinical Psychologist Collective book.

Starting point is 00:33:15 I found it really interesting about all the different stories and how people got to become a clinical psychologist. It just amazed me how many different routes there are to get there and there's no perfect way to become one. And this kind of filled me with confidence that, no, I'm not doing it wrong and put less pressure on myself. So if you're feeling a bit uneasy about becoming a clinical psychologist I'd definitely recommend this just to put yourself at ease and everything will be okay. But trust me you will not put the book down once you start.

The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast - Why you should apply for research roles - clinical research practitioner

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