The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - 13 players who can swing the 2026 NFL season

Episode Date: August 12, 2026

Get your tickets for the live show! https://lh-st.com/shows/09-01-2026-the-athletic-football-show-with-robert-mays/Nick Emmanwori. Parker Washington. Darnell Wright. All of these guys weren't necessarily getting a ton of attention at this time last year, and then they went on to completely swing how good their teams were. Who could do the same in 2026. Allow Robert Mays, Derrik Klassen and Dave Helman to bring you the players who could swing the 2026 season on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.Accompanied watching: Texans training camp notebook (https://youtu.be/dW-SINQBEiU), Seahawks training camp notebook (https://youtu.be/2C5ZH-Qm-wE).0:00 Welcome to the show3:46 Marlon Humphrey10:53 Nnamdi Madubike17:01 Garrett Bradbury20:32 Bears left tackles24:15 Ed Oliver31:35 Rashan Gary34:43 Cobie Durant38:35 Derrick Brown48:48 Jadarian Price55:40 Josh Jobe1:01:25 Keylan Rutledge1:06:12 Jayden Higgins1:10:00 AJ Brown1:20:51 TAFS live show!Join The Athletic Football Show Discord Server: http://discord.gg/theathleticfootballshowHost: Robert MaysCo-Hosts: Derrik Klassen and Dave HelmanExecutive Producer: Michael BellerSenior Producer: Katy DuffySocial Producer: Scott KrinchFollow Robert on Bluesky: @robertmays.bsky.socialFollow Derrik on Bluesky: @qbklass.bsky.socialFollow Dave on Bluesky: @davehelman.bsky.socialFollow Robert on X: @RobertMaysFollow Dave on X: @DaveHelman_Theme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Today, we're digging into the players who could swing the season for their respective teams. A lot of the guys we talked about here are from playoff caliber teams or teams that hope to be playoff caliber teams again, because those are the seasons that are worth considering when we're thinking about which way they're going to go. There are not a lot of Browns, Jets, and Cardinals on this show. And I think that's probably how it should be going.

We're talking about the guys who could make the difference in these borderline playoff teams feeling like real contenders or feeling like they were a little bit disappointing compared to what their preseason expectations looked like. Dug into a lot of fun names today. Really enjoyed this conversation with Dave and Derek. Before we get into the show, one quick bit of housekeeping. Athletic Football Show live at Lincoln Hall, September 1st. Please get your tickets now.

We would love to see you on that night. We were doing the wins pool draft at Lincoln Hall. We'll do a little Q&A after or a lot of Q&A. We'll answer all the questions you guys want us to. We'll be around for a while. We'll do a little meet and greet after the event ends. We had such a blast doing it the first time. We would love to see you all again.

So please get your tickets. Linkin Hall website in the description below. We're really looking forward to it. Hope you guys are as well. Let's get to today's show, the players that could swing the season in 2026 with me, Dave, and Derek, right now. Today we are talking about some of the most important players, the way that we see it, some of the most important players in the NFL this season.

Not necessarily the best players, not necessarily the biggest names, but the guys that for one reason or another could swing the season for their NFL teams. This is a crazy name to throw out, but it's the name I think about when I'm doing these sorts of exercises. I remember in 2017 when the Eagles traded for Ronald Darby during training camp. It was like an August trade that seemed inconsequential. And I was like, that is the lynchpin move for the Eagles winning. the Super Bowl and then they won the Super Bowl because all they needed was another outside

corner. And so I'm trying to think of like a dozen Ronald Derby's Dave as we sit here on August 11th about who could swing the season one way or the other for their teams. I love that shout and it's a perfect example of the exercise because we talked about it last night before we were like before we started putting this all together. Of course every team's quarterback is going to swing their season. That's boring. We all know that. You don't need me to tell you that the quarterback could do that. Like the goal, what I'm looking for here, and I'll say a few of my guys are much better players than Ronald Darby,

but you're still looking for linchpin players that aren't getting that sort of pub before the season who could matter that much. So no quarterbacks on this list. Mine are kind of all over the place when it comes to prominence. I got some kind of borderline star players, some bigger names, some guys that are maybe, you know, role players within their, defense. There's a bunch of different ways that you could go with this, Derek. I had, yeah, mostly guys who were, I think, too, it's a bunch, like I had a couple of rookies,

which I think that's always tricky to talk about because we've never seen them play before. I think we've got, I've got a couple of players that have reached previous highs that maybe they did not play to last season, but maybe could on their new team. And I've got, I do have one player that we'll talk about, and I figure we might talk about this team anyway for a different reason, but one team where they're replacing a player that was very good and they also need to be very good for this thing to work. I'm going to kick us off here because there's a couple of news items that we need to hit. I think we will naturally hit them via my list of players because two of the guys play on teams

where that news is coming out. I'm starting with Marlon Humphrey of the Baltimore Ravens. And I was already going to do this. And then the weight Nate Wiggins injury happened today. So we don't have a lot of clarity about what that means for Nate Wiggins. Jesse Minter said that he didn't have a lot of information when he was at the podium earlier today, but that it seemed like it might, there might be some reason for optimism. It might not have been as bad as they might have thought.

But let's just for our purposes here, assume that Nate Wiggins is going to be a part of what the Ravens are doing this year. I think that staff in talking to people when I was in Baltimore is very excited about what they could potentially get from Nate Wiggins. And when it comes to new coaching staffs, it's up to us to kind of figure out the breadcrumbs of like what it could be and how it could look maybe a little bit different than what those coaches had done before. And with Baltimore specifically, I look at having Nate Wiggins there and then they hired Mike Mickens from Notre Dame as their secondary coach and their past game coordinator. Notre Dame has run a ton of man coverage over the last few years while he's been there with Marcus Freeman. that's not what Jesse Minter had done when he was with the Chargers. And is that a product of the players of how Jesse Minter wants to play? So my assumption was, all right, they're going to potentially put more on the outside corners in this defense than we saw Minter do in Los Angeles.

Nate Wiggins is set up to hold up in that sort of world. Is Marlon Humphrey at this stage of his career? And it sounded like when I was there that they were really having him focus on playing outside corner. that was going to be in his role, his role. They were going to figure out what things look like in nickel and dime. He led the team in slot snaps last year. And so we felt good about Nate Wiggins, and we're going to ask Marlon Humphrey to hold up as an outside corner all year.

I think you could talk yourself into other elements of this defense being improved, being improved by personnel, but also just Jesse Minter being there. That, like, if we have to play more one-on-one with Marlon Humphrey outside a corner after what was a down year for him, I see that, Derek, as potentially a place where this defense could swing for Baltimore. And now it might even become more important if we think Nate Wiggins is going to miss any bit of time. I mean, I think so. You know, I watched the mailbag you did, or not the mailbag, but the news or thing that you did about the Ravens Camp and then putting him potentially more outside, which I thought was interesting. You know, on one hand, it's like, yes, you have Kyle Hamilton who can play the nickel and they bring in Jalen Hawkins.

So they would have two safeties that they could play behind Hamilton if they want. want him to play a nickel. Like all that makes sense. But to me, at Humphrey's stage in his career, kind of to what you're talking to, he can still play outside. And I still think he's a very good zone corner. Like, he's still very smart. I'm not sure he has quite the same juice and speed that he used to,

maybe some of the same quickness to hold up in one-on-one. I do think if they want to be a, like, physical and really play a lot on the line sort of team, like if they're using him the way that they used, Mentor being used like Cam Hart a lot last season, I do think that Humphrey can just be a better version of Cam Hart. But to what you're talking about, like, that doesn't necessarily allow you to play more one-on-one man coverage. It's still a lot of zone principle and type of stuff like that. And it might still be those zone principles, just a little bit more in-your-face zone principles. I think that's part of the prospect of hiring Mickens. It's not necessarily

we're going to be a 40% man coverage team now. I absolutely don't think that's going to happen. I do think it is a in-your-face play style thing they're trying to tap into. And so maybe it is more zone with that kind of being the foundation of how they want to play. But either way, you're asking a lot of your outside corners in a defense like that. And so I think if we feel good about Nate Wiggins, Marlon Humphrey is a guy that people thought he might get cut this offseason because of the money that the Ravens might be able to save. And so if we're trying to build an optimistic case for the Ravens being this defensive turnaround team with Jesse Minter and going from a really disappointing unit to one that's in the top 10, Dave,

I really do think that Marlon Humphrey is like one of those guys where it could tilt either way here. That just makes me wonder. And of course, we don't know what the issue is with Nate Wiggins will have to see. I don't want to react too strongly to something that's not finalized yet. But assuming for the sake of conversation that it's a pretty serious injury, it's August 11th as we record this. I would wonder if the coaching staff would adjust some of their goals. based on that because I think that it's worth pointing out there's a big difference between this happening on August 11th and in season when you're already you know your game planning as

soon as the game is over whereas here you have time to tinker you have time to say all right we weren't going to run 40% man anyway let's maybe we dial that down even further than we were already you know or we dial it down from what we ideally had in mind already if we don't have Nate Wiggins available. Like, I do think there's still time to tinker with this if it turns out you don't have Nate Wiggins. But I get your point, though. I mean, just losing him emphasizes the strain on every other cornerback in that room.

It just does. If you look at it, Marlon Humphrey right now has a $26 million cap hit this year. Like, that's, he needs to be better than he was last year to justify, like, that sort of investment. on a team that has a lot of high-priced players. Like, there is real opportunity cost in rolling with him at $26 million based on what they got a season to go. And so I really do think that it's going to be way more complicated than this.

Nomdi Madi-Bke is somebody who can easily mention here. I probably didn't just because it's an injury-based thing. We may get to him in a second. I think there are. I think that you can make an argument maybe outside of Nomni-Madabake. If we look at the performance of one player on the Ravens defense, If we get to the end of the year and we say, oh, man, Marlon Humphrey had a really good year. Doesn't that make you feel pretty good about what the Ravens defense is going to have looked like over the course of the season?

I think when you frame it that way, yes, because with Nambi Matabika, who we can talk about in a minute, it's the what his whole thing hinges on is like, is he even going to play. And like, if he plays at all, like, yes, that's a great thing. But like we're, you know, barring him getting injured in the next handful of days or whatever. Marlon Humphrey is going to play basically every single snap for this team. So whether or not he has a He's a fine starting Cornerback type of season. He still tackles well. He makes a couple of plays in zone coverage versus like

oh, he's back to playing like a Pro Bowler. That might be the difference between like whether or not this team can hold up because I do think like Roquan Smith, I know the beginning of last year I think really saves in people's minds by the end of last year he was very good again. I do think the front is deeper than it used to be. And I think that like that safety room with Hamilton Starks and Hawkins is like really, really good.

And so if Wiggins comes back healthy, and Humphrey is 15% better than he was last year or even really again, just like a better version of what Cam Hart was with Jesse Minter, we're kind of cooking with this defense. Okay, but everything we're saying right now is exactly why Namdi Matabike was the first name that came to my mind when I sat down to do this.

When you're talking about guys that can swing the season, and of course, injury is a huge part of it. Namdi's not practicing as of yet. Every time I check in on the Ravens, he's doing conditioning and rehab, work. We'll see where it goes. He's just off to the side wearing a big old neck roll. That's what was happening on the day I was there. Just waiting. And that's what makes it so intriguing is who's he going to be or is he going to be available at all? I don't know. But if he's remotely

the player that we remember, even even in light of the Nate Wiggins injury, I'm not that worried about the Ravens defense because Robert, you said, we talked about it a few times over the course of the offseason, how many difference-making defenders do the Ravens have? And that was coming off of a year where Madabike wasn't available and you felt it. Like the Ravens were first in defensive DVOA in 23, 6th and 24, and dropped all the way outside of the top 10 last year. Can't attribute all of that to Namdi Matabike, but it's such a huge deal. Adding him back to the lineup, I think A, him, if he's that guy, to,

Trey Hendrickson, three, Kyle Hamilton, and then if Namdi Matabike is playing up to his normal level, I'm so much more confident that Roquan Smith is going to be fine. And so now we're saying four with a bullet and then whatever you get from everybody else's gravy. I think Jesse Miner can make that work, man. Like I think this defense could be really, really good with a guy like that plugged into the middle of it affecting everybody else. And I think with him, even let's say he does play, but even if he doesn't, I think the front has more workable pieces now and more skill sets that when you cobble them together, I think it's easier to get excited about that group. The edge group room is a perfect example where last year you had Tavius Robinson and Mike Green and now you have two guys that kind of mirror those skill sets. Like Trey Hendrick isn't just a more fully formed version of the speed rusher you were hoping might.

White Green would be. And Zion Young is coming in to give you hopefully the same sort of skill set generally that Tavius Robinson is giving you. So now you have like four guys in that room that all kind of complement each other in the right way, plus being a lot deeper in the interior. The interior is so banged up right now, even outside of Matabake like Travis Jones isn't practicing. John Jenkins is practicing. Callais has been in and out. But in theory, Derek, you're going to have a lot more usable bodies up front. And I think that just speaks to the quality and, the variability of this defensive personnel compared to what it looked like a year ago

where it all just felt so much thinner and so much more specific. And I think last year it being thinner, even if the Ravens didn't always have stars beforehand, it did always feel like they had depth. And so last year, them having none of that, I think was tricky. The depth I do feel good about it,

like if, you know, Jones can get back in the lineup and all those guys, if they can be healthier, I feel pretty good about the depth at edge and even at defensive line. Last year, I think defensive line depth was one of their worst, like, toughest spots on the roster. At the same time, I do still think you need one of your front players to be someone who can get into the backfield specifically against the run. And I do think Nomni Madabike, when I'm looking at the roster now, is really the only guy that I trust to do that. And so if he comes back and he's, you know, let's say 85% of what he can be, that is like the biggest delta for what we're talking about here, where he literally might not play versus like if he's 85% of what he was,

He's getting into the backfield once every couple of drives, and he's really allowing you to do a lot of the stuff that you want to do on defense. I know on-off splits are a flawed statistic in football. I know that. But I looked at the 2023 and 2024 seasons. So pretty big sample size to draw from. Namdi Matabee, Matabeeke, on the field versus off the field, the Ravens had a 9% explosive run rate allowed with him on the field.

It jumped to 12% with. him. They had a stuff rate of 22% with him on the field, 18% with him off the field. Like just tremendous jumps when he is available. He's top 10 in tackles for loss over the last two healthy seasons and third among interior defensive linemen and pressures over his last two healthy seasons. Like just a really, really good football player. And at that position, a player that can have a gravitational effect on so many guys, be it other front players, be it Roquan Smith. I just, I don't think you can understate how big it is.

And that's the thing. I feel like he, the style of player that he is, is perfect for their linebackers. Some linebackers need defensive linemen who can eat up a little bit more space, buy them a half second so that by the time the guard comes up, they're in a great position to just knock them back to. Rokwon Smith, and it, you know, depending on when Teddy comes back, like Trenton Simpson will probably be their other backer.

They need runways. Like those are guys that need space. And if a guy like Namdi Matabike can just create a mess and knock a guard back two yards into the backfield, that is a perfect runway for a player like Rokan Smith or Trent Simpson to go make a play. And that's, it's interesting because these lightbox teams, they all play they'll run a little bit differently. And Jesse Minter, he'll let the defensive linemen get after it a little bit in order to account for that stuff. Like it's not just we're going to two gap and we're going to play everything really kind of passively. And they'll try to must.

I'll try to muck things up a little bit more by letting guys be a little bit more aggressive, and that's exactly what you're getting out of Madabike. If you kick someone's ass hard enough, you can get two gaps. You don't have to like play both sides. Yes. You steal the gap back with violence, not by holding up at the point of attack. And so I think that's interesting. You saw that a little bit with the Chargers last year.

All right, Derek, who's your first guy here? Your first player that you feel like can swing the season this year. Yeah, I actually want to talk about your Chicago Bears a little bit. I think for me it's Gary Bradbury, the center. He's also on my list. Yeah, okay. I figured we might be talking about Luther Burden, which, you know, we might at some point. But Garrett Bradbury, to me, like, any time.

So for most of Ben Johnson's time in Detroit, he had Frank Ragnow. He was healthy for almost all of 22, 23, and 24. And obviously those lines and those offenses were incredible. And then last year, Ben Johnson goes out and pays a lot of money to get Drew Dalman, who short of Creed Humphrey and Aaron Brewer, might have been the best center in football last year. Like, especially in the run game, he was dominant. Like, what he was able to do with Jonah Jackson and Joe Tuny, I think, was exceptional.

Garrett Bradbury, I think, is fine. Like, he played decent football for the Patriots last year. He's a pretty good athlete. He's just not the same people mover as, as, you know, Dolman's not necessarily like a mauler either. But I do think he's a little bit stronger than a guy like Garrett Bradbury. So I think we're going from a place where you're replacing, again, I think, like the third best center in football last year,

to a guy who is average at best. And I'm wondering, like, how much of a drop-off do we see in the offensive line play and in the run game with that being the case? Because, like, the only path forward to me for Bears being, you know, 12-win team, then being at the top of the division and that stuff like that, is the offense is like firework show. And I do think that the center being, like, a dominant player, or at least a very good player, he's not going to be as good as Dolman.

But if he can be closer to that, then we think that, I do think, goes an extremely long way for this team. This is precisely my thought process and argument is that I'm now terrified about the defense. Right before we started recording this, we just saw that Kobe Bryant is now going to be out four to six months with knee surgery instead of those eight to ten weeks. So you're looking at the bear's situation on defense and the safety depth specifically. And now Cam Lewis is supposed to be able to play nickel, but now Kyle R Gordon's hurt. So Cam Lewis would have been your backup safety.

Well, now Kyle Gordon's also hurt, so he's having a. to play nickel a little bit. It's just a position they're already not deep at. And so I'm just very worried about what the state of the defense is going to look like. And exactly like you said, Derek. So if they're going to be an 11-win playoff team, the offense is going to need to carry them. Can the offensive line play in the run game be in the same general area it was last year when Dalman was giving you what he was giving you?

I think my goal with Garrett Bradbury this year is that we just never talk about Garrett Bradbury. If we're like going through the season and he's just never a consideration, like the thought of like man the bears really miss true dalman and we hate watching garret bradbury every single week as long as that's not happening i do think the other pieces can lift you up other people are going to point to the left tackle situation and be like well that's a concern isn't it they don't know who they're starting left tackle is going to be they didn't know who they're starting left tackle was last year

like that was a revolving door and it didn't matter because you can hide one guy and so i think Bradbury being able to get within spitting distance of a version of what you got from Dalman last year, I don't have many doubts about the skill position talent. Like, I think that's kind of wheels up. I'm ready. That I feel like is going to be really, really

good. But if Bradbury can give you something akin to a diet version of what Dalman did last year and you can keep building as an offense, to me that it's almost the most important question about this team, period. It's funny, I'm one of those people.

that circled the left tackles. And I hear you, Robert. But the reason I, when I was looking at this, I'm so interested in the left tackles, I think because Garrett Bradbury's been starting in this league since 2019. And so for better or for worse, I think, I think you know what you're getting. I guess Ben Johnson and playing between Tuny and Jonah Jackson could elevate him. Yes, that's hope, right? He gets hit both literally and figuratively between those two guys.

he's still so much of a known, so much more of a known commodity than whoever comes out of this left tackle thing. And last year, I'm like, okay, if left tackle is the one weak point on the line, you can definitely hide that. If it's two guys who are struggling,

all of a sudden I'm really worried. And ideally, we're not talking about Garrett Bradbury, but it would be amazing if one of these left tackles could step up their level of play. I don't know how optimistic you are about that. But the other interesting news coming out of Bears camp right now is that Ryan

Poles is the latest guy to say Ozzie Tripillo could be back faster than everybody expected, which is just blowing my mind, by the way. Like, I can't believe we're at a point where they're not ruling out a potential return by him during training camp. I think that's the long shot outcome, but that's still insane. Because of how the left, maybe because of how the left tackle position went last year and the fact that they did have to cobble it together with three guys last season. I just living that life again as I'm ready for it. Like I do think they can cobble it together with three to four guys again. The center thing is just such a different challenge than it was a year and ago at a different

consideration. I think that's why it's at front of mind. Maybe I should be losing more sleep about the left tackle thing. But because I've already seen them do it, it leaves me a little bit less worried about it. that's actually where I took it. Like I've like yes, we've already seen Gary Bradbury played a lot of NFL games, but we've never really seen the Ben Johnson offense without an elite center.

And I'm not saying that like the entire Ben Johnson offense hinges on whether or not his center is elite or not. But we haven't seen that. And I do think that we've seen him already put together an offense with like whoever you're putting out at left tackle. I think that's, I think, I think you're both right. the having uncertainty at two positions makes me really nervous. But I think you're probably right that Bradbury fixing it is,

is the more realistic outcome probably. I think the hope and the cope is that you have such a good run game designer. And coaches talk about this all the time, like who we put the hard downs on? Can you remove as many of the hard downs as possible from your undersized center and just ask him to be like, the things we're going to ask you to accomplish are going to be based on you being able to move a certain way and can you build the run game that way it's like dolman's undersized too obviously

he's capable of being the third best center in the league in a way that garret bradbury is not i think you're hoping for average but i think that if i again if i'm coping a little bit it's that drew dolman and frank ragnan are very different players and we saw the bears construct we saw ben jonson construct the most efficient running game or one of the most efficient running games in the league with two very different types of centers over the last few years all right let's take our first quick break and then come back and chat about a few more of these guys. So the next guy I wanted to talk about is another kind of more prominent player than I expected when I was doing this exercise.

But I was in Buffalo yesterday. And a name that kept coming up when it comes to this defense just feeling a little bit better, one and two, the reason that Jim Leonard got hired and somebody that had come up a lot in the process in terms of like his vision for the defense and, you know, things that they can maybe tweak a little bit. It's actually Ed Oliver. And the reason that I want to go with Ed Oliver isn't because I think that Ed Oliver is like a volatile player and, you know, like, would they need a better version

of Ed Oliver? This isn't like the Marlon Humphrey thing. I think it's if you're talking yourself into this year's version of the bills, it's that we will feel the defense in a different way than we have over the last few years. And that includes the best players. Like if we're getting the best versions of every guy, defensively, I think when we think about that with a coordinator. it's usually, oh man, like this role player just had his career year under this guy.

Like, what a great coaching job. But that multiplier applies to your best players too. And so the idea that Ed Oliver in a defense where we're getting more 5-0 looks and he's getting more one-on-one, so we're moving him around to create those pass rush opportunities a little bit more. Do we get to a place by the end of this season where in this system, Ed Oliver is weaponized and had the best season of his career? He's a second team all pro because of what some of the third down and pass, pass down stuff looks like from the bills.

And that fuels this unit looking like a different version of the one that we've looked at over the last couple years. And so it's a slightly different version of answering this question. But I think after being in Buffalo and hearing about some of their lines of thinking, I actually do think it applies to the conversation that we're having here. But I can buy that too for almost the same reasons that I would Namdi Matabike, where like, at Oliver played, what, two games last year? Like, he really was not on the field hardly at all. And so the fact that they were missing him for a lot of last year, he comes back this year

and he's obviously going to be, when he's on the field, I think he is, him and Christian Benford, I would probably say, are their best players. And this is also a linebacking core, similar to what I was talking about with the Ravens, they are not like defensive line buys him a half second. They can come up and punch the guard and now the air is squeezed out of the run fit. They need someone to create a mess and they are going to run. and backfill and be able to get into the backfield. Both Bernard and even Dorian Williams,

who I think he's going to start a linebacker for them. That is what they are best at. I don't know, man. Is he not? Who is it going to be? They like the kid. Caleb Illam Zor is like making like a real push to be that guy next to Trow Bernard. But that's real.

Even he, that's what he does. He's an athlete. Like these are guys that like it's run and hit. And so if they can, if you have Oliver who I think that that's what he's best at right, where you're slanting him, you're allowing him to penetrate, get into the backfield. And also, Deion Walker, like, as a nose, that's what he does.

Like, he's, I know he's a bigger guy, but, like, that's what he does is he gets into the backfield. And so, and I know they drafted TJ Sanders last year. He we talked about a little bit on a different show where, like, at his best, I think that that's what they want him to be. So if this is, like, a very attacking, we're slanting, we're creating all this stuff for these linebackers. You can start to see the vision if Oliver plays back at the level that he was, which was kind of what you were talking about. We're like not lock it in all pro type, but like, like, He's been knocking on the door the last couple of years when he had been healthy. I think, yeah, it's a great thing to point out.

He did play three games last year. I'm more mean it's not that he needs to necessarily be a better player than the, like, the last time we saw him on the field consistently, it's not that he was bad, right? It's not that we need to be an improvement over that in terms of quality. I think it's more to be about deployment. And again, like the subtleties and the nuances of how this defense can feel a little bit more dangerous. And yeah, the front is going to be fascinating. Like, we got players that were picked for a very different system.

that are now going to be asked to do a lot of different stuff. And you mentioned T.J. Sanders as that third interior guy, they're moving Landon Jackson inside. So he put on like a ton of weight this year and he's that other five technique. Yeah, I kind of like that actually. That's what he does best is set the edge, like hit in the run game. How much did he add on? Did they say?

He looks big. I think it's like 15 pounds. I think he's at like 2. I think he's at like 280, 285 right now. And when you look at him, he looks big. And initially he, he's, was not mixing in that much with the first team. And now it's like, I think it's going to be a real question of week one, we're in

base. Is it T.J. Sanders or Landon Jackson? And so it's, I just think there's so many. It's the defense, that defense period is just so intriguing to me. Like what it's going to look like, how, like, what, which players does that like scheme help make sing? And Oliver, to me is the guy I keep coming back to where it's just like, he's had more than

five sacks once in his career. Can we get back to a place where he gets. it's eight or nine, and he feels like the most important, impactful player on the defense, in part because of how they're using him. Again, if we get to the end of the year, Derek, and Ed Oliver has eight and a half sacks, would you feel pretty good about what the Buffalo Bill's defense was in 2026? Yeah, probably. If you told me that he had that sort of season and one of the DBs took some sort of step,

that would probably be enough to be like, yes, that defense is what you wanted it to be. That was too much of a hesitation. opportunities. That was too much of a hesitation for my preferences. I think that would be amazing. Is that where he's coming from? Because there are a lot of other considerations. There's some other issues on the roster, I think, yeah.

But I feel where I'm out with it is like, like you said, Derek, like, I want them to make a mess. Let's make a mess. Like, they just have not done that. And that's what I want to see from this group is like, I'm not trying to shit on Sean McDermott. Sean McDermott was a really good. stabilizing defensive coach for a long time.

But we got to a point where the defense, especially out front, just wasn't very exciting. It just was not an exciting brand of defense. And now I do think we have a chance to get there. And if that front can play that way and have that sort of production, it almost is like what you say, where you're saying with the two gaping

and with the defensive line, and Derek, it's like, we'll figure the rest out. Like, if we're making a mess and we're really like creating opportunities and making things hard for people up front, a lot of the rest of that stuff figures itself out. Not exciting is such a great way to say it with the bills. And some of that's not their fault, right?

Like there were a couple years where they were just cobbling it together out of injured players and dealing with loss after loss. And Sean McDermott did some really admirable jobs building a functional defense out of what was healthy. But I often wound up feeling so underwhelmed, whether because of injury or because a guy just didn't take. And talking about Caleb Elam Zor, like, there have been so many years where I've been excited about the top 100 picks coming in. And I mean, Dorian Williams was that guy for me a few years ago.

And it never quite materialized the way you wanted it to. Cole Bishop is rounding into being a good dependable player. And maybe he'll keep ascending. But he wasn't that guy early in his career. I would love it if some of these offseason additions and some of these young draft picks hit right away. It would be so refreshing for a unit that has kind of leaned on the old guard for as long as the bills have, which ironically, you're talking about the oldest member of the guard of all. But if Ed Oliver benefits from it, that would be great. All right, Derek, who's your next one here?

I'm going to stick on the defensive side of the ball. I've got Rishon Gary of the Dallas Cowboys. And I'll admit, I was not like super enthusiastic when they made this move. but I think the more that I've sat with it, it's like I'm starting to, I don't know if I see the vision necessarily and I'm like optimistic that we're going to get there. But I've at least found the case where like this could be a pretty big swing player for them. This if we remember, Rashad Gary had really started to come on like around 2020, 2021, 2022. His pressure rate from 2020 to 2023 hovered anywhere between about 16 to 19% or according to NFL Pro. Then Jeff Hathley comes in and that number drops to more closer around 30.

And I'm not saying that's necessarily Halfley's fault, but player in a new defense sometimes things are just going to happen. And he had never quite felt like he had got back to some of the highs that had got him paid originally. Now he's going to Dallas where they've obviously completely retooled this front. But he's playing, I think, next to some defensive tackles that will make his job easier. And he's now a guy that is, I think, a pretty good scheme fit for what they want to do and is now being given a role and given an opportunity where it's like, hey, you're the guy here. You need to be. like our pass rush demon. And so I just think that there's a chance that if he plays closer to the pro bowl like consistent pro bowlish guy that got him paid originally that we can get there. And I think I will say to like you could have picked what a half dozen players for probably the Cowboys defense right. But I have one. Yeah.

My next guy is a player on the Cowboys defense. I was having a hard time figuring out who I wanted to land on because there are so many ways you could go with it. There truly were so many ways. And the only reason I picked Gary was that. to me, along the front four, he really felt like the guy where the biggest delta between like what he has been at times and what he can really be at his peak could swing things. And then the secondary, it's just like there were kind of too many guys that I just didn't

know who to pick, which became the problem. Well, I think you could go, if you wanted to stick with the front, I think you could make an argument for Azaraku, too. I knew you were going to say Azaraku. I knew that's where you were going to go with that. you could go with that you could go with Gary I saw him set in the edge in practice the other day I'm very impressed by what I'm seeing

when I started this I did almost pick as a rock the only reason I picked Gary is that if we're talking about swing right like we're talking about like what can this guy be on his high end maybe asa Raku has some peaks but like we've seen what Roshan Gary can be at his peak and that is a difference making NFL football player so I think that's the reason I picked him is like we've seen it can he get back there I'm not you know we'll see maybe

it's not fair it's a new scheme it's you know he he got traded somewhere that really wanted him maybe he feels rejuvenated but like the end of gary's time in green bay is just hard for me to get excited about maybe that's not fair but that's just how i feel i mean playing with his hand off the ground again like this is good hopefully like the scheme fit thing is just something to consider i there's a billion different ways you could go with this you go with Caleb downs but it with a rookie it's always so hard to know. And like the guy I went with is probably less exciting. And I'm with you, Derek. I think maybe Gary gives them the biggest fluctuation. But the guy I went with was Kobe Durant for a couple different reasons. I think that having like a solid, solid outside cornerback play

if Duran Blan is going to be in that other spot. Because I think that was, I think the second outside cornerback spot when they came into camp was up for grabs. I don't, I don't think that anyone had been penciled in there. I think they felt good about Blan in one of those spots. And then the other spot was like, we're going to let it play out. We're going to roll the ball out. We're going to see where we're best. And I actually think that for Durant, it's a couple different reasons. If he can solidify

that second outside corner spot in some looks. And then the other thing about Durant that is like, all right, what could the Cowboys defense be over the course of the year? What are the layers to this? He can move inside. And so if you're going to try to play a little bit more dime and you can put Ravel in there

because you feel good about him as depth and Durant moves inside. And Durant moves inside while Caleb Downes plays that dime linebacker spot. And that's a way to get six guys on the field that you feel pretty good about on a team where I think the number one question about the defense is off ball linebacker quality and depth. Kobe Durant suddenly becomes a really important pivot point because beyond his own play, he potentially allows you to play in a way that you want to over the course of the season. Also, my thing with Durant, and this is this is a thought that I keep having. looking at this roster and I brought this up on Mina's show and I did the NFCE's preview. I know that Parker is coming from the Fangio world, but when I look at what the DPs are,

especially at Corner Witheron Blan and Kobe Durant, those feel like to me, quarterback vision, eyes on the quarterback, we're driving on route sort of players. It's what Kobe Durant was really, really good at at L.A. He wasn't always the best like run deep down the field on vertical route stuff, but he could play the quarterback and attack, especially when they were playing a lot of these Blitzfronts. That to me is what their corner. underbacks do best. And so I wonder if they are a little bit more spagnolo Flores-ish influenced than like the Fangio tree typically. As I'm not saying they're going to lean all the

way into it, but I wonder if it does look a little bit more like shoeless defense than necessarily like Fangio's. I think Durant would be my answer to this for the Cowboys because you have, which I did not forget about Quinn and Williams. I want to be clear. But when the news of his contract extension came down, I was like, oh yeah. Holy shit. Yeah, that's great. I did have the same thought. I did have the same thought because it was such a dumpster fire at the end of last year that it's it's almost one of those things where you're like, you forget that if you're trying to build

the case for optimism for the Cowboys defense, it starts with Quinn and Williams, a guy that we just have not seen there for very long. So I'm with you on that. I'm not going to give you shit about that. I have the exact same response where it was like, oh, yeah, Quinn and Williams is on the Cowboys, that's cool. But like with Quinn and Williams anchoring that front and what he can do and how he can help all the other options up there.

I can make my piece with that. The secondary is what scares me. And Kobe Durant, I'll say till I'm blue in the face, is a good football player. And if he can just sort of hold everything up to get creative and lift up the rest of the guys

in the secondary, particularly the cornerbacks, I just, I feel much better about what they have if he's available. All right, Dave, who's your next one here? I feel like we skipped you for like two turns because mine was connected to Derek's. I just feel like each guy we say

reminds the other two of three guys that they wanted to talk about. It's fine. I want to talk about, so I reverse engineered this. I want to talk about a certain team and that team is Carolina. And I was sitting here debating players

that could swing Carolina's season. And here was my thought process. If Carolina is going to win the division again and be a better team and be like a legitimately good team and not just a mid-team in a bad division. What do you think is more realistic? Bryce Young becoming a wholly different player than what we've seen through three years

or the defense becoming like a legitimately pretty kick-ass unit. I think that is the more realistic answer of the two things. And if that's going to happen, Derek Brown is like a rising tide lifting all boats sort of player. Like obviously the Panthers made two of the biggest defensive editions of the offseason. Jalen Phillips and Devin Lloyd are both awesome. But like they're going to be unlocked to their truest potential by Derek Brown being one of the best DTs in football. And he is, by the way.

But like if he puts together a season like that maybe unlocks another level as a pass. rusher and opens things up for Jalen Phillips and lets you know takes the pressure off that secondary. I think that's the path toward Carolina being a legitimately exciting team because it reminds me of the conversation we had about the Saints the other day. Like the Panthers made a legitimately great jump on defense last year. They went from unplayably bad in 24 to like 22 in defensive DVOA last year. That's a great success story, but it's still not good. If they can get too good on defense this year. Now we might be talking about a different sort of Panthers team.

And if one guy is going to have a hand in that, Derek Brown is my vote. What say you? The only reason I push back on a little bit is just because I just think he's good. Like I just, I think that we know what he is. And like it, I think there are other guys that when I think about the season,

we know what he is. I'm, I didn't even do the win horse fingers on purpose. But do we, Do we know what he is with like all pro caliber players around him? Like do like have we seen. Does he have that? Can I ask that question?

I mean, I know. I say what you will about Devin Lloyd, but he officially was all pro last year. And then Jalen Phillips. I mean, I hope he has all pro potential for the money they gave him. God damn. Like, come on.

I think that's, I think that's where I, I think that is my only contention with it is that I think maybe I'm just too hung up in a Devin Lloyd of it all, because, but I will say at the same time, like Devin Lloyd, I think not. But again, what if Devin Lloyd looks like the guy from last year consistently because Derek Brown is just mauling everything in front of him every down, which is what he does? Okay.

That's my thought is that I would, I think it's, to me, it's probably more Devin Lloyd. Because I think that Derek Brown's level of play. Like, I think I know what I'm going to get out of Derek Brown. I think I need Devin Lloyd to be the guy they paid in a. order for this defense to be as good as they want it to be. My argument would be. Devin Lloyd is going to be that guy if Derek Brown is wrecking shop for 17 weeks. That's my contention.

I do get what Dave is saying now because I do think last year with Devin Lloyd, not that I don't think the Jaguar's interior was all that good, but the defense as it was constructed always put him in really, really good spots. Like I think especially in coverage, they just put him in really, really good spots. I don't know if that's necessarily going to be as true in Carolina. not even they go every else defense is fine. But I think if Derek Brown, just by virtue of being the third or fourth best nose tackle in the league, is putting him in advantageous spots, maybe you can get there. Again, I'm still dubious that he can play at that level consistently.

But if he can do that and if Phillips is giving you a little bit more presence on the edge, there is a chance that this defense does take the jump that they need. Derek Brown obviously didn't really have a 2024 season, which was part of why Carolina's run defense was so atrocious. but across his last two healthy seasons. So 23 and 25, Derek Brown leads the league in run stops, which is classified as a tackle that leads to an unsuccessful rushing play. And he's fourth in the league in run stuffs, which is a tackle for zero or negative yards. He's top five in stuffs and leads the league in stops.

The only guys who have stuffed more runs than Derek Brown in that time span are Crosby, Quinn and Williams, and Miles Gives. Garrett. He's an awesome football player. And I guess you're not wrong, Robert. Like, obviously, they need Devin Lloyd to be that guy. But all due respect to Devin Lloyd, I think him being that guy is going to hinge on that. And so I think, I think Derek Brown, like having that sort of season where he plays like the best nose tackle in football is the most realistic path toward the Panthers having that sort of defense. And I think you can make an argument. that Jalen Phillips could be here as well.

Like if Jalen Phillips stays healthy for 17 games and Jalen Phillips has the sack season he's never had before, the Panthers just didn't have that player last year. And so I think there's a bunch of different ways you could go with Carolina's defense on this one. Even though at the end of the day, I think that's the team where who's the swing player for the Carolina Panthers, the quarterback? The quarterback is the swing player for the Carolina Panthers. Okay, devil's advocate, like, Bryce needs to be better. But like if Bryce is only marginally better,

but the defense is like top 10 at everything. I mean, I'm not picking the Panthers to win the Super Bowl, but that's like, that's a team that could win 10 games and kick somebody out of the playoffs. I have my doubts about that. Yeah, I think they're one that I need to see it until, I think I need to see it with them. The crappier version scared the shit out of the Rams a year ago.

I think the one that I just outlined could ruin somebody's season at the very least. That felt like a weird Rams had like a weirdly specific Achilles heel for that team or something. It's a weird one-off game with an oblong ball, guys. Like, that's the whole point. Well, it's also, the Panthers could scare anyone for one game last year. That was the whole thing with the Panthers is that there would be games or they would look like a top five team in the NFL. And there would be games where they would get blown off the field by teams that are worse than that. by the Saints in their series.

Swept by the Saints. I'm familiar. They beat Atlanta 30 to nothing too. They're the weirdest team in the world. But like if their defense is legitimately great and Bryce Young just stays out of the way, they'll just be better than last year is all I'm saying, which is not that high of a bar to clear. I think I have questions about if their defense could be legitimately great.

Even though they brought in those two guys in free agency as high-priced players, like Jalen Phillips is really nice on the Eagles defense where he's I mean I guess you can make an argument that you have J.C. Horn, you have Derek Brown. Jalen Phillips could be the third best player on your defense and you could still have a really good defense. But I do have overall questions about what the ceiling of the defense is, even though I think that to your point, they're absolutely better set up to be a borderline top 10 unit than they happen over the last couple of years, surely based on the talent that they have. I don't think you're crazy for saying what you just said about the Eagles though, because like I would say, two of their DBs are better players.

I think both of their defensive tackles when they're healthier, better players, like Zach Bond probably is like he, again, Jalen Phillips is a good player, but there is a difference from being the sixth-ish guy compared to... To being the third. Pretty definitively being the third, if he's, yeah.

That's kind of what I was getting at, but I think that, yeah, that's not to discount the fact that the Panthers do have a couple of lead players. And Mike Jackson played at that level last year. And so there's an argument to be made. If the three big dogs play up to, that level, then I think this could be a pretty nice unit.

I hesitate at like top 10. That's like out over my skis a little bit. But they were again, they were 22nd in defensive DVOA last year. If the three big names play up to that level, I think they could be substantially better than that. I guess my hesitation in terms of what you said when it came to, all right, if they're a top 10 defense and Bryce plays the way he did last year, like how would you feel about that team? they finished 24th in offensive DVOA last year. Like if they're the 23rd best, I think there are reasons to believe that they can be better than that.

Coker being healthy all year is a big part of this. Jonathan Brooks and like the mystery box that is Jonathan Brooks. Like I'm very much open to the fact that the Carolina offense, independent of the quarterback, can feel more dangerous and dynamic and explosive than it did last year. But if they're the 18th best offense and their 11th best on defense, that doesn't really scare me all that much. Like maybe that's enough to win a shitty NFC.

but beyond that, how much different is that team really than what it was a year ago? Okay. Can I be an asshole for like five seconds, though? Because I'm taking swing the season very literally. Matt, like if the Panthers beat the Rams in Charlotte last year, how does it change the complexion of everything? I mean, I guess it doesn't keep the Seahawks from winning the Super Bowl, but you get my point.

Like, a better Panthers team can change the landscape of the league for the year. that's my contention here I don't know if I agree with that they just feel fake to me I don't know if I agree with that I'm open to being wrong about it listen if the Panthers defense comes out and they're like the fourth best unit in the league

I'll happily eat crow I just even I have questions about what this team's ceiling looks like based on how the quarterback place that's I know that's not an interesting place to land but like I just can't eject that from my brain all of all Panthers yes it all

boils down to that and that's completely fair but whatever I wanted to talk about Derek Brown for eight minutes all right let's take our next break and then come back and hit a few more of these guys all right Derek you got one more I have two more I actually think Judarian Price for the Seattle

Seahawks is like a pretty big swing to season player I had like 14 guys and he was among my 14 guys that I wanted to talk about I really do like this they so obviously the story with the Seahawks offense last year is JSN. But by the end of the season, teams kind of figured out what to do with their passing

offense a little bit. And they really had to become a running team. And they did. Like over the second half of the season, including the playoffs, they were at zero point zero EPA per rush. But that was 10th in the league. And they also had 12 runs of 25 plus yards, which was basically won a game. The only other team that was doing that over that stretch was the Ravens. And obviously when you have Derek Henry, you're going to be able to do that. And it was actually a pretty even split. And, you know, I know we think of Kenneth Walker as like the explosive guy, but it was kind of an even split of Walker doing that, of Charbonnet doing that. They're like one or two of those were like Rashid Shaheed plays.

But I do think, you know, obviously with Charbonnet coming off of the injury that he's having and then Walker being gone, you really do need a guy like Price to come in and give you the explosives, the field flipping plays that you want on offense. Because that's what this whole thing is built about for them. Like they need to hit explosives. They can be kind of efficient. But the offense is like, hey, the defense is going to give us good field position. we're going to flip it in one or two plays and boom, we're in scoring position. And so I think whether or not Price can give you that,

especially again with Charbonnet not being healthy, especially at the early point of the year, whether or not he can do that, I do think goes a long way in determining whether or not the Seahawks offense can feel similar to what it did last year. It's interesting. I hear that and I think that's a good way of thinking about it

if it's about replicating what they did last year. I'm really interested in how different the offense feels. and in what they're asking their players to do. Because I think that's right. Like if we're going to try to figure out, okay, we have the same model we had last season. How do we get back to the Super Bowl? Judarian Price replicating or approximating what you got from Kenneth Walker is very important in that. I think that we're going to see some different wrinkles for what the offense feels like with Brian Fleury as the coordinator.

And I actually think that's part of the reason I wanted to include Judarian Price in this. The Seahawks last year, I believe, finished 31st in the NFL. in the number of their pass attempts that had five guys in protection. So getting five guys out in the route. They were 31st in the NFL. The Niners, I think, finished fourth, but when you compare that to total pass attempts,

the Niners percentage is up near the top of the league. And so I do think we're going to see more, we're going to see fewer heavy protection, big play action shots as like the centerpiece of the Seahawks passing game this year. I do think we're going to see more guys out in the route. and Judarian Price, what he's been as a pass catcher in training camp has been one of the things that's really jumped out to that. Like when you look at the past catching backs for the Seahawks last year, it was mostly that Zach Sharbonne was playing on passing downs because Kenneth Walker couldn't pass protect.

That's why they did it that way. I think they'll ask their backs to protect less this year. And I think it'll create more opportunities for Judarian Price in that role. And I think that's going to give this offense a little bit of a different flavor than it had a year ago. And so I had the same guy, but for a slightly different reasons, even though I think the starting point, Derek, was exactly where you brought it. That is interesting, though, and this is why it's great that you do all the training camp tours. Janarian Price, like, didn't catch passes in college.

And I think on sometimes you're scared of that. You look at the numbers. I do think with him specifically, it's easy to be like, well, yeah, Jeremiah Love was. Like, why would you not just have Jeremiah Love on the field doing all that? And I do think that there probably is some validity to that. And so if he's looking good doing it in camp, and they think that Sam Donald is a guy who, because I think I will say, I think part of why Sam Donald works is they don't ask him to do that as much,

but I think if that's something that they can get him to be comfortable with, and Judarian Price is comfortable handling that and, you know, getting out on time, making sure he's at his Lambar, is catching the football correctly. That could be like, like you said, these offenses, these defenses are always going to have to change a little bit if that's their wrinkle because, again, like, this is not something that Kenneth Walker did a ton. That is interesting because that was the part of it.

I just didn't feel comfortable projection. because again, he didn't do it, and I haven't really seen them in training camp. I don't think they're going to run a Niners' offense from last year. I think that they'll do a lot of the same things and carry it over that they were really good at. But I think that's potentially one layer that we didn't see, and that's the element of Price's game that I'm really interested in watching. Since we're talking about him anyway, can we flip over to the other side of the ball? Let's do it. Oh, who do we got?

Robert, what's your read from being in Seattle on the secondary and just like, Like what like the structure of it this year. Like I mean, are we just plug in guy like are we plug in Josh Job and going or are we, is there more happening there? And obviously I know Emin Worry hasn't been practicing. So maybe it's hard to say. I mean, Joe will be one of the outside corners the same way he was last year. Right. And I think that it's so it's going to be when Iman Wari comes back, we'll see Job and whether spoon on the outside.

And but I think they really want to make sure that they can continue to, use Weatherspoon inside. And so I think that's going to make that third outside corner spot, the one that, you know, a combination of Job and, let me do that again. Five, four, three, two, one. I think they want to find a third outside corner in order to use Witherspoon in the ways that they want to. And so when I was there, Julie and Neal was not practicing.

And so it's been 12 days since I was there. I don't know what that looks like now compared to what it. looked like then. My understanding in that moment is that Nehemiah Pritchett was probably heavy inside track or was if they had to play today, he would have been the third outside corner to make sure they could continue to move with a spoon inside. It's safety, it feels a little bit more unsettled in a good way where I think coming into camp, Taya Ocada was going to be the guy that was next to Julian Love. That's one of those, this is classic, safety specifically. All right, we, you feel good about the floor that Taya Ocada

gives you. We saw what he could do in the defense last year. Does Bud Clark give you a little bit more of a ceiling because the range and the man coverage ability is just like a slightly different notch above? I think that's the conversation that Mike McDonald is going to be having with himself over the next few weeks as they figure out how they want that group to shake out. So I think that that's kind of where I land. We're like, we still need to figure out the third corner. That's like a question mark where it's like we'll see who that ends up being. At safety, I think it's a question mark but complimentary. Like we're sorting between two options that we feel good about for different reasons.

So that's more or less what I gathered. And that's how I settled on Josh Joe being a guy that could really swing things for the Seahawks. And I don't want to sound like I'm betraying my guy. I love Josh Joe. But I do think there's an element of. And by the way, I think it's good team building, assuming you catch the right breaks to let Rick Wullen walk. sign Josh Job 3 for 24 draft Julian Neal and that enables you to sign JSN and Spoon and Byron Murphy and whoever comes down the pike after that.

It makes perfect sense. It hinges pretty heavily on Josh Job and to a lesser degree, Julian Neal, to step up and and be those guys. And like Josh Job was, I thought he was great, especially down the home stretch last year. as the CB2 and a guy that you could count on to not be like a lockdown cornerback, but just consistently do his job. I think naturally when you're working with two established starting cornerbacks instead of three, it just gets that much more difficult. And I think the spotlight is that much brighter on the guys that are left after Rick Wollin.

It's not to say Josh Job is a bad player or like, or like he proved himself as a good player last year, but you're reducing the number of known commodities in your secondary. And I think it's just easy to kind of land on Joe because you feel that much better about bouncing spoon around and doing all of that fun shit if there's somebody on the outside that you can just count on. Like that was the value of Rek Wullen is everybody else is running around having a blast doing God knows what having the time of their lives. And Rieks just out there consistently for the most part being. a steady presence. Do you have that guy now? It needs to be Josh Joe. And I think he's up to it, but I don't know that he's as good as Rik Wullen. Yeah, and like last year they would kind of tell

you that they think that he is, but I still do think that like cornerback two, cornerback three on this team, whoever it is and however it shakes out in that order, that does to me, that is what is going to hinge whether or not this is arguably the best defense in football again, or do they feel more like the sixth best defense in football, which, which is obviously show really good. And I trust Mike McDonald a lot. And this front is incredible. But I do think the fact that they had three really, really good corners last year. And maybe now they only have two. And maybe there's a chance that you just deal with a little bit more health issues at that spot. I do wonder how that's going to go. Again, I trust Mike McDaniel to, or Mike McDonald to get these guys right. But losing a player like Tariq Wullen, even if he wasn't like a full time starter by the end, like that is going to matter with the way that they like to move their secondary.

It's interesting. I think that it goes back to the Ravens conversation where the Ravens, I feel like they would rather have, keep those guys on the outside and figure out who the depth is on the interior. I think Seattle, the thought process is flipped, where it's like, we would rather have to worry about, you know, whoever.

And, you know, I think you can correct me if I'm wrong on this, Derek, but the way that they played the corners, they had Josh Job into the boundary in order to kind of, can account for the fact that maybe his change, direction, just the way he, who he is as a player is something you have to worry about. They, one would play the field just because of the range that he was able to, the range that he brings to the table. So the fact that that that's a harder job, right? And so the idea that that's, that's the guy that they now have to replace. What does that end up looking like? I probably should

know more about that in terms of who's been playing the boundary and field corners when they move, where they're put inside. I don't know what that has looked like from training camp. That's I'm sure people who cover that team have done a good job of pointing out. But it, they would rather say, we'll figure out how we need to get by at one of those outside cornerback spots because we need to move Witherspoon inside in order to access all of the things that we want to be as a defense. And so it's, it's interesting to see how these different teams think about it differently. We're like in Seattle, it's almost like we need our Alohi Gilman at corner in order to move Witherspoon in all the places that we want to. Where with other teams,

it's like, ah, we're just going to worry about who is we're going to worry about who the third like the second interior player is it can be keon martin some undrafted guy and so the way that these different teams think about those spots differently because of the players that they have i think that's it's it's noteworthy and i think this is a very good example of that where teams are considering that in different ways it's worth saying too julian neal six two with 33 inch arms and runs like a gazelle he might be able to step in and give you some of that right away we just haven't seen him yet. I mean, I think he just hit the practice field for the first time this summer yesterday. So maybe in 10 more days, everybody in Seattle will be saying, ah, we're good.

Julian Neal is as advertised. But right now, I'm looking at it. And it makes me, it doesn't make me nervous. I think Derek nailed it. Like, this could be the difference between Seattle being a normal good defense and Seattle being like, holy shit, where do you go with the football? You know? And that's a big difference from what they were by the end of last year. And that's the difference between winning or losing the Super Bowl. I think the Seahawks with the sixth, if the Seahawks were the Jaguars defense last year, who were like fifth or sixth by DVOA, they do not win the Super Bowl. And so like it's, it does like, again, they'll still be good.

I trust Mike McDonald and the rest of the players. But that little bit of a difference, that is what gets you championships. All right. Derek, do have one more. I do have one more. And we can do this quickly because I think we've done this in five different ways. offseason. Keelan Rutledge for the Houston Texans, I think among all of their offensive line shifts and offensive line changes, he to me is the one that is, I picked him because I think he's

the biggest unknown. Like Wyatt Teller has played for a long time in this league. Braden Smith has some injury issues, but I think we know that generally when he's out there, he's been a pretty good player. And then Ersri and Ingram are coming back. Keelan Rutledge is an unknown, not only because he's a rookie, but he's changing positions. Like he played guard in college and he's, I think, expect to play center here. Whether or not he is like, if he is not sinking as a rookie and he can actually give you something and he can give you some of that moving, mauling people that you want, I do think that that can be the difference of their run game being not great, but can get them into

downs and distances that the offense works as opposed to there where they were the same last three years, where they're the third worst rushing offense in the league and they cannot do any of what they want on offense. It's funny that we were thinking about the same unit. it's Derek but going with different players. I almost went with Keel and Rutledge, but we've talked so much about it that I, that's why I went a different direction.

But you're right. Like, you're absolutely right. Like, if he can be somebody that's just an ass kicker from day one. And I think that with him specifically, this is even a better argument for it. If he can play center,

that allows why, Keel and Rutledge is going to start for this team. The question was going to be whether it was a guard or center. And it was going to, him starting at center, I think was, do we feel good about where he's at to be able to handle some of that stuff within the offense. If the answer to that is yes, let's pencil him at its center because if he plays center, that allows Wyatt Teller to play guard,

and then you get more physical at two positions. And so I think that's what is such an important consideration here. And it does sound like we're trending in a direction where he is going to be the starting center for this team. And so now you look at that interior and Wyatt Teller, who knows how many games are going to get from Wyatt Teller? Maybe it's eight games. Maybe it's 10. But for those 8 to 10 games, Ed Ingram can be, trying to think about generous I want to be with this.

He can have some low lights and pass protection. As a run blocker, he can, he has moments as a run blocker. Like, he can really establish himself in that area. And so Ed Ingram, Keel and Rutledge and Wyatt Teller is your interior trio is just a vastly different level of physicality. than we were talking about with the Texans offensive line from last year. And so I think it's on multiple different fronts. He becomes a guy that potentially swings that unit. And he's just like, I think, again, this goes back to it's not even just them being better.

Does it feel hard to play against the Texans offense? Because last year it didn't. Like there would be times where like, sure, CJ Stride makes a great throw. Nico Collins dunks on you. Jaden Higgins makes a cool play. But it didn't feel hard to play against the Texans because you kind of knew what you were getting a lot of time and they just couldn't move you off the ball. If they are actually beating the shit out of you for three quarters and then you get

down to it in the fourth quarter and you're just like, please God, don't run duo again. Don't run two oh at me. And then here come Keel and Rutledge and Y teller and they just move your nose tackle off the ball. Like I do think that having that on offense, when you obviously already have that on defense, them rounding out that like ass kicking mentality for their team, I do think that that's going to make them like the most grueling 60 minutes of football in the league. I can't even tell you the degree to which you hit that on the head. It's exactly what their thought process is, like 100% correct.

My guy Landry Locker, who does good work down in Houston, said today that Keelan Rutledge and Will Anderson got in a fight during a walkthrough. That sounds right. That sounds right. But that is so telling because they want Will Anderson's on offense. That's the whole point of him being there is that we need Will Anderson's on the offensive side of the ball. So it's a joke, but it's actually very telling. He said it's, Rutledge has had four scuffles during camp.

Like, I mean, yeah, they, they were telegraphing what they were doing by drafting him. Like, we, we said that on draft weekend, but it's exciting that we're here now watching it in practice. Can't remember the exact situation, but he was, like, in the locker room. And they were just mentioning something about, like, CJ getting hit or, like, something happening to CJ.

And he, like, he's just like, not on my, watch essentially like and this is just like in like a random offseason moment where he was just like no we're going to protect the quarterback we're going to kill those guys and it's like my god and i think it's exactly right derrick like they just they want they needed an edge on offense that they like can the offense have the edge our defense has i think that was so much of the thought process and i think that's the guy that hopefully give it to them i my guy on the i picked another guy from the texans offense that i think i think yours is the right choice but we but we talked enough about it that I went a slightly different direction.

I went with Jaden Higgins just because I think that if we're talking about the Texans receiving court by the end of the year as like one of those diversified, like dangerous in a bunch of ways, types of past catchers, and he can be that intermediate slasher that kind of adds a couple layers to his game he didn't have last year to go along with Nico Collins, to go along with the vertical stuff you get from J.O. and Noel. like how we think of Jaden Higgins as a number two receiver by the end of this year

to me will go a long way and what we think about the Texans' offensive skill position talent. Are we going to get to a place where when we're talking about the best receiving cores in the league or the ones that are best constructed, the Texans come out of your mouth in the same breath as the Lions or the Colts from last year?

Like is that going to happen? And I think that happening is really dependent on how we talk about Jaden Higgins by the end of this season. I mean, I do think as far as the past catchers go, he's the best guy for that because I think, you know, Noel can do some different stuff in terms of like he can run those outbreakers. He's really good on the vertical stem, but you do kind of want to hide him and like, I think you do want to use him in particular ways.

Nico Collins, I think can obviously do a lot, but you probably want to play him at X. Higgins really, I think, is a lot of their move around player. Like, he was tight to the formation a lot of the times last year, but you can still play him outside. You can put him on the line. He's not like great with the ball in his hands, but he's pretty smooth for a guy his size. Like, he really is kind of a, not can you feel? fix all of our problems, but like we can literally just like slot you into almost any route into any formation. And I do think, you know, you and I both talked about this. I think we were both questionable about like what really is he coming out of college? And I think that last year he was,

he was a much better player early on than I thought he was going to be. And I'm actually kind of optimistic about what he can look like going into year two. I am too. And I think part of it is if you were going to look at his body type and be like, that's an X. I'm going to stick him on the line of scrimmage all the time. I don't think he would be a good player in the NFL. I think he'd be fine. I think we would have some concerns with him. The idea that because you have Nico Collins, now he can be a move around piece where you're getting him off of press coverage.

You're just asking him to do the things he's only good at and minimizing the things he's bad at. I think that's what creates the optimism. And what's been cool is that, not cool, because you never like this, but J. Laudan O'n has been hurt. And so they've been able to experiment with Higgins a little bit more than they would have

just in terms of where he's been lining up in part because of that. And I think it's taught them some things about what he's potentially capable of as you move him around the formation. And so that collection of past catchers there, I think has a chance, again, is just be a group that we talk about with a little bit more enthusiasm by the end of this season than how we talk about them right now, even if there is a little bit of underlying optimism. I'm starting to get that.

It's all going too well feeling about the Texans that you were mentioning with the Rams a week or so ago. Like the offense was so bad last year that we have so far to go before we get there that I think they were still a little bit of a ways off. I, but like everything is equalized by how good that defense is. Like your, your standard for what they need to be is just so low that you wind up talking yourself

into some crazy shit. And I have to like pump the brakes just at least for a little while until we can like get to the end of the summer. All right. I have a bunch more guys. I wanted to say very quickly, just go rapid fire. Go for it. I got,

I got one more real quick. I'll go fast though. Let's do it. We got a real one. Let's go. We just, we talked about it earlier this week, so I won't go super long.

I just want to put it on wax that this is how I feel. And he's not, this is not a sleeper player. But it's one of my biggest pet peeves in football is there are so many good receivers that the minute, the minute you're not lighting the world on fire, you're just not good anymore. if AJ Brown is even close to the AJ Brown that we know and love.

This is a great one. This is a great one. I love this. They might go back to the Super Bowl. Like, and everybody's just sort of acting like that's not realistic because AJ Brown had only a thousand yards last year in the offense that throws the ball like the least often in the NFL. I'm pretty sure he's still good. I went back and looked. So over the last three years, A.J. Brown is sixth in the league in yards per route run. He's seventh in explosive receptions. He's 12th in EPA per target. He's eighth in first downs per target. Like, obviously just an amazing player. Last year, which was this supposedly terrible year, and he got traded and he's 29. He was 13th in yards per route run, 25th in first downs per target, 10th in explosive receptions, 18th in EPA per target. He was 13th in yards per route. So, like, definitely not as good, not bad at all, not remotely bad. And again, this is an offense that doesn't play this explosive throwing the ball all over the place style of football.

And Drake made as a better quarterback than Jalen Hertz, in my opinion. I just, I think this has the potential to be absolutely gangbusters. And if it is, the Patriots are going to be a problem. And I just, I feel like the trade was so weird because we spent. four months waiting on it to happen and we were so tired of hearing about the drama in Philly, I feel like that's clouding

our perception of things. And I think it should be a bigger deal that a receiver of this caliber is linking up with the guy that almost won MVP. And I just want to state that. I want to have that in posterity to look back on later.

I like this a lot. I don't disagree with anything that you're saying. I've been thinking about it a lot since we recorded it. And in my list of 10 of guys that we weren't going to get to. One of my answers here was just the left side of the Patriots offensive line because that's what I keep coming back to.

My inability to get a handle on the Patriots is not what Drake, what AJ Brown and his best would look like with Drake May. I know how good that looks. I think I'm a little bit worried about what the whole thing is built on up front based on how last season ended. And I think you could easily make an argument. Well, well, Campbell was hurt last year. Langevare Tucker wasn't even on this team last year.

But the last time we saw Will Campbell, it was not going very well. And we haven't seen Elijah Vera Tucker play a lot of football over the last several years. And so even if we can get really excited about the Drake May, AJ Brown element of this, I think, again, the foundational aspects of the offense, how well they run the ball, how well they pass protect because of what we last saw from the offensive line, even if the personnel should theoretically be better, I think that's what's in the back of my mind. I want to allow myself, and I am allowing myself to get really excited about what AJ Brown and Drake may could look like together. It's the other stuff that I can't totally get over.

And that's why if we did 20 of these each, the left side of the Patriots Offensive Yon combined would have been one of my answers. It's funny, you're not wrong, but it's funny your your fixation on the playoffs. And it did look bad. And I never do that. I never do that. It was comically bad. It was. But they were playing in the final game of the year.

Like they were in the last game that you can play. And that was with the offensive line being what it was and the receiver core being pretty good, but nothing to get excited about. They played three like not functional offenses in route to getting there. I think that's part of that. That's the reason. There was some fraudulence to what the Patriots did last year. I'm not debating that.

But I don't want to use that word. I don't want to blowback from that word. You can say it. I don't want to say it. There was a degree of fraudulence to it. I have no problem saying that. But anybody that is offended by that should listen to me say they were still a really, really good team and more importantly, a really, really good quarterback.

Like, I hear what you're saying about the boring foundational stuff. And that does need to be better. But if you can be that good. and let's say like don't even like screw the record screw the super bowl but like if you're a playoff caliber team with drake may playing behind that line and those receivers adding an explosive element like a j brown into the mix i just think could pay off even if the offensive line is the same as last year and i think the difference to me last year for as good as the patriots offense was it always felt like it hinged solely on what drake may was capable of if it is oh the quarterback

is an MVP type of guy, and also they have the third best receiver in football, fourth, fifth, whatever you want to put him at. That I do think is kind of like a supercharged thing. And like, there's a chance maybe with the age he falls off a little bit. But A.J. Brown has, he was the best receiver on a Titans team that like had no business being as good, like getting as like being the offenses that they were. Like he was. Some of the insufficient offenses in football because of AJ Brown and Derek Harry.

Yes. Like those two players carried an unbelievable burden. And Ryan Tannahoehl was fine. But like to get where they got and get the one seat in some of those years, like, unbelievable. And then he goes to the Eagles and like immediately changes their offense, immediately changes what Jalen Hertz is able to be. And then they win the Super Bowl shortly thereafter. I think that he can do that again with the New England Patriots. Like I, the offensive line does need to be a little bit better.

But I think even if honestly, even if the offensive line is around what it was last year and you just tell me that defenses have to play them a little bit differently because they have A.J. Brown and Romeo Dobbs. that to me is probably enough. It probably is. You guys are probably right. I don't know what it is. I don't know what it is. I never do this. I'm never like,

oh man, the playoffs. I think it's because it was four games and not one. I think that's the problem. It's not the way the season ended. It's the way that what 25% of the regular season is comprised of look the way that it did. The real, the irony here is they opened the season in Seattle on banner night.

Like it might look bad again. It might look bad again. Or it might look great, right? It might look great. All this stuff might be moot. Listen, I, I, the degree to which I hate even being a moderate A.J. Brown doubter because of all the other stuff we're talking about pains me to my soul. We did a non-QB draft in 2021 and I picked him like fourth. And people were like, what?

And I was like, nah, man, this guy is the fucking truth. Like, he is so good. And he has only been better than that. in the last five years since I did it. And so I do not want to be in a position where I'm a little bit worried about what A.J. Brown's team is going to look like. I want to believe in this.

There's just a couple things. Right or wrong. I've said this multiple times in the last week in the last two shows we've done. I could be wrong. I could absolutely be wrong. But right or wrong, there's just something that, I don't know,

just making me feel itchy. It's really icky to be the guy that's like, are we talking enough about the New England Patriots? Like, nobody wants to be that guy. We're putting each other in really, shitty situations here on multiple different fronts. All right, let me do my rapid fire of guys. You mentioned the guy replacing Tariq Wollen.

How about we just go with Tariq Wollen? Sure. Tariq Wollen is one of those guys we easily could just throw out there. Left side of the Pats O line. A bunch of different ways you go with this for the Jags. Trayvon Walker. We talked a little bit about Trayvon Walker and like the step he could take. Travis Hunter.

Travis Hunter is absolutely a part of this. And my hipster pick for the Jags is Branson Combs. the golf ball linebacker that they might have to play next to Foyer because they're in a moment now where Ventral Miller and Branson Combs are fighting for that spot and so it's the do we want the thumper or do we want the converted receiver who's going to give us a little more coverage ability and I honestly think trying to tap into that bit of Devin Lloyd is probably more important structurally to the defense and so Branson Combs suddenly becomes a really important piece for Jacksonville

I think that's real Jordan Morgan and Warren McClendon same idea just offensive tackles on guys offenses that want to be top five that we have questions about Dallas Turner I also had him before I whittled my list down yep Dallas Turner is like all right we need a guy to replicate what Jonathan Bernard has been maybe Caleb Banks is so good that it doesn't matter but I think Dallas Turner is worth mentioning here Jadarian price was on my list Quentin Johnston yeah if the if the Chargers are going to be a top four offense what sort of season do we need from Quentin Johnson. My answer is a pretty good season.

Quentin Johnson needs to be a dynamic explosive player for the Charter's to be who they want to be on offense. In the same general vein, Mike Evans. And that one's trickier too because it's a lot about health. Like Quentin Johnson is just like can just play better. Yeah.

Or can like, we're in a space now. We're all we've ever wanted I think collectively as a football watching community is just to see Quentin Johnson used the way that he was at TCU? Can we just get like a bunch of crossers and the act opportunities and like all that? And I do think that's exactly what we're going to get. And to Quentin Johnson's credit, he has been a much better piece of an offense when not being

used that way than he was as a rookie and that I thought he could be as a rookie. But I still think that there's more meat on the bone if Quentin Johnson's role just looks like all the best shit Quentin Johnston does. And we stick Trey Harris on the line of scrimmage and have him be the guy run win sprints all day. I said it at some point before. If Quinn Johnston basically just gets treated the way that like Evan Ingram does, I feel like that is that is the best way to live. I want more runway plays for Quinn Johnson though.

I want more like out-the-gate runway plays for Quinn Johnson over the middle of the field. Yeah. Mike Evans is a great shout because he heard his quad and I just got so upset that I stopped thinking about him. But he was back at practice today. So the dream lives on. Well, it's a it's a there can only be one situation. most of it now is never going to play football again. So it's one in one guy and one guy out for the San Francisco 49ers.

All right. That is all we've got for today. We've got a fun show coming tomorrow. I don't want to say it because if we do have to pivot because I like miss my flight or something, I'll be very sad. But I'm really looking forward to tomorrow's show. And I will let you guys find out what that is when it hits your feed. But a lot of good stuff coming your way.

A quick reminder, live show. Lincoln Hall, September 1st, Chicago, Illinois. We are doing the Winspool Draft live at Lincoln Hall. Tickets are available on the Lincoln Hall website. I assume they're available in the description below, which you can click on. We are very excited about doing another live show. We do a little Q&A after the Winspool draft is over. We'll hang out for a bit.

They've mentioned this. Lincoln Hall is a really cool little bar area in the front. We'd love to hang out and say hello to all of you when you guys come by. So come out. It's going to be a fun night. September. We had a really good time the first time. Please get your tickets to the live show. I think that you'll be happy that you came. For now, that is all we got. Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon. Thanks for tuning in. Make sure to hit that subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode.

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