The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - 1st-year head coaches roundtable with Blake Bortles, Pierre Garçon and Pat DiMarco

Episode Date: August 26, 2022

First-year head coaches are an unknown commodity to many, but not all, of us. Their former players certainly have insight on what they can and will look like in a leading role. Robert Mays sat down with three such players over the last few weeks to dig into what we might see from a trio of coaches making their debuts in the big job. He spoke with Blake Bortles about Broncos head coach Nate Hackett, Pierre Garcon about Dolphins head coach Mike McDaniel, and Pat DiMarco about Giants head coach Brian Daboll.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTube Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome, the Athletic Football Show. Today's Friday, August 26th. I'm Robert Mays. Great show for you guys today. I wanted to do something about the first time head coaches in the NFL. Get some insight on some of these guys that are getting their first crack at this. And I thought the best way to do that might be to talk to some players who actually have spent time with these people.

So we went through their histories and found three guys that have played for some of these new head coaches at some stop along their career. We chatted with Blake Bordels, who played for Nate Hackett in Jacksonville for several years and then spent some time in Green Bay after he went there as the offensive coordinator. We talked to Pierre Garsohn, who was in San Francisco when Mike McDaniel was the run game coordinator there, and also in Washington, where Mike McDaniel was his position coach during the best season of his career. And we also chatted with Pat DeMarco, who played for Brian Daibble in Buffalo, when Daibble was the office coordinator there, Also, way back when Daibald was the offensive coordinator in Kansas City, which feels like a lifetime ago.

So I'm really excited for you guys to hear their stories about some of these first-year head coaches, maybe give you guys some insight into the people stepping into these roles. Before we get into those conversations, though, I wanted to talk about the Tyron Smith news. Obviously, a huge blow to the Cowboys season. He's apparently going to be out three to four months with a torn hamstring, an issue kind of right by the tendon in his knee. if you saw where he was grabbing in that pretty gruesome video that came out on Wednesday night. Nate and I alluded to this when we were talking about the Cowboys earlier this week in our top 10 offenses podcast. I think the word I used was fragile. And Brandon Thorne, whose work I really respect and appreciate, does his offensive line rankings.

Losing Tyrone Smith dropped the Cowboys from 20th or from sixth in those rankings to 20th. Partially, that's because the Cowboys didn't have a ready-made swing tackle on their roster. They drafted Josh Ball in the fourth round last year. He's apparently not ready to kind of step into that role. It's been a huge question mark. Even when I was there this summer talking to John Moshoda, who covers the team for us, he was talking about that spot being a glaring weakness. Last year, when they had injuries at that position, Terrence Steele was ready to step right in.

Now they ship Lyle Collins out of town because they were trying to save some money. They shipped Amari Cooper out of town because they were trying to save some money. And now you're looking at this offense and thinking, all right, is Josh Ball going to be their starting left tackle. I think in a bump Tyler Smith, a rookie, who they were trying to bring along slowly inside out to left tackle and have him be the week one starter. Combine that with a receiving core that features semi-fahoko and Jalen Tolbert and a bunch of guys that are completely unproven to play with C.D. Lamb until Michael Gallup gets back, it's just not the start that this team won it. And I just felt like the underlying lack of talent compared to previous years

really lowered this team's ceiling. And now with some of the injuries that are starting to pile up, the floor is going a little bit lower. And you would hope that Dak Prescott can raise that and make this competitive team on his own. He's paid like an elite quarterback. And that's what we expect out of guys at that position. But this is an absolutely brutal start for Dallas. And I wouldn't be surprised with some of the financial flexibility they have and some

of the cap space they have after moving on from Cooper and Collins that they may try to make a move for somebody. And there aren't that many teams with a surplus of offensive tackles in the NFL right now. but I don't know, man. If I were Mike McCarthy, I'd probably given a call up to Brian Goonkus in Green Bay, who I know pretty well, and asking him what it would take to go get somebody like Yash Nyman, who played pretty damn well last year when David Boktiari was hurt. But there aren't many good solutions to what the Cowboys are dealing with right now.

And they were one of the teams that really just couldn't afford this sort of injury based on the way that their offensive roster was put together in really, really rough way to start the season here for Dallas. All right. On that note, let's get to these conversations with some of these guys, really excited about it. All right. I'm thrilled now to be joined by NFL quarterback, someone who has worked with Nathaniel Hackett at multiple different stops during his time in the league. Blake Bortles. Blake, thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate it. Absolutely. Thanks for having me on. So you played for Nathaniel in Jacksonville. You spent some time in Green Bay. I want to get into a few different aspects of that.

But I want to start with the meetings because they are apparently legendary. He does crazy shit in them. The way that he presents information is kind of unlike most NFL coaches. What is the most memorable Nathaniel Hackett meeting that you have been a part of? The most memorable. It's hard to narrow it down probably to one. So we had, I guess you would have to say, which this actually traveled from, embarrassingly enough, from Jacksonville to Green Bay.

but it was myself, Chad Haney and Nathaniel Hackett would always kind of meet in the back of the Jags facility was his office and kind of a little closet in the back. And Nathaniel was a big Austin Powers fan. So we would, we recreated, he called the gold zone or the red zone, and he would do his little presentation on Friday mornings for that. So you remember that like they're at the roller rink and they're skating around and he does, they're wearing gold and he lifts his leg up above his head and does all that. Of course I do. Yeah. So we bought outfits off of Amazon or whatever that showed up and we got dressed one day and

had that filmed and we actually had, so was us three going and then we borrowed Ed who was the facility custodian, an incredible guy and he hopped in the video as well and we were all dressed completely in gold with that music playing in the background. So that was just kind of one of the things he would do and to keep things light and entertaining, but we did stuff like that all the time. And it may seem silly, but do you feel like by presenting information in that way and making it a little bit different and a little bit lighter,

that it does come across in a way that makes it easier for guys to understand and process? Yeah, I think so 100%. I think the one thing about Nate that shouldn't really be confused is that he finds ways to make things lighthearted, to keep them fun, to keep guys involved. but at the same time, at the core of his mission is to make sure everybody is on top of the details as much as they can possibly be and dialed in for whatever the situation is, whether it's an install or a game plan during the season.

That's kind of the root of all, you know, I guess the madness that he brings along. Every conversation I've had with him, it can be about a topic that's rooted in the current year, in 2022, for example, but inevitably is, we're talking about football, he will bring something up that happened 30 years ago that relates to the way the game is played today. What is, what do you remember as like the weirdest or kind of most out of left field historical thing that he showed you or talked about? Because he is very into how the game was cyclical.

And he brings that up very often in conversation. That's my experience at least. Yes, no, you're 100% right. And from my experience, it's kind of the same as well. I don't know how he's been elsewhere. I would assume, you know, no, no Nathaniel, he doesn't. change very much. But like the really one of the first meetings I had with him, he took the quarterback coach job in Jacksonville in 2015 and kind of getting to know him. I remember one of our

first meetings. He throws on tape that, you know, had to be converted somehow from a VHS or possibly even a projector of, it was Joe Montana in like an all gray jumpsuit, just taking three step, drop, five step, step drop, seven step drop over and over and over again. And then obviously it went from like kind of an individual drill of him showing that and rewinding it a hundred times, you know, saying look at his weight distribution, look at his momentum change and all this. And then it went from that to watch in practice and, you know, him hitching and everything marrying up with concepts and the quarterback's feet and the timing. And obviously his background of his dad Paul and the legendary stuff he was a part of

and the guys he was around, you know, and that was kind of the environment Nathaniel grew up in. So that's, you know, kind of where the root of everything. everything. He does stemmed from the old school invention of, you know, what is kind of known as West Coast football. And it is, it's definitely a history lesson any time you get a chance to spend time with him. I wanted to ask you about that because he is, I mean, his last name is literally Hackett. He is the most true blue West Coast guy outside of someone named Walsh that you could probably talk about in the NFL or talk to in the NFL. Going to Green Bay, that version of it and what Matt brought with him after working with Kyle and Sean is a little bit different. But when you went back to Green Bay and you guys would spend time around each other, what do you think he believes in his bones offensively right now? Like if he could build it from scratch, what do you think his belief system on offenses?

You know, it's hard to say because I think he's so good at catering his system to the personnel and the guys he has. And number one, the quarterback and what the quarterback's comfortable with good at and like, running. You know, to your question, I think it would probably be about what they were running back in the day when his dad was coach in and around Bill Walsh. I think that's the root of where everything he does comes from as far as timing synced up with quarterback's feet. You know, one hits, you hitch to one with or without to one, hitch to two, hitch to three, and then you're moving. You know, you can only get so deep in the pocket, kind of like the fundamental philosophies of of the West Coast system.

You know, it was interesting to see, obviously, being with him in Jacksonville, us being, we're with Greg Olson the first two years, and then Nate took over his coordinator, and what he did was along those lines of kind of what I explains. And then he obviously, you know, kind of caters it towards the personnel that he has available, but then seeing him in Green Bay and some of the things

with Matt coming from, you know, McVeigh and some of that influence and also having stuff of his own, you know, and kind of being around there and seeing stuff of like, man, we never would have done this in Jacksonville. But, you know, his ability to adapt and change, you know, the way he thinks and design plays, but also at the same time still seeing, you know, kind of his influence in and some of the stuff they were doing in Green Bay. What's an example of something that it just wouldn't have happened in Jacksonville that you guys were trotting out in Green Bay? I mean, a lot of it, which majority has to do probably with Aaron Rogers playing quarterback.

You know, I think that's kind of the Trump ball when you guys. that guy playing you kind of do do whatever you want um we were very when we were together in jacksville we had four net right so we were a lot of 12 we were a lot of 21 we were a lot of downhill run duo stuff play action off of that um you know and then in green bay there was kind of the floor obviously it's his his team his offense his system with the influence that you know that he's had throughout his career um but it was more of you know it felt more of uh Not that it was close to it, but there was just more of that L.A. McVeigh stuff involved with formations and motions and stuff like that. I think for the most part, concepts throughout the league are all pretty similar.

You know, there's a couple switchups here and there. But, you know, guys are kind of in the same place. It's just how they get there out of what formation and how you protect it and all that. I'm sure you watched him and Aaron interact as far as ideas, dialogue. Like, I see it this way. I want to put my spin on it this way. I'm fascinated by what that's going to be like with Russ and how they're going to have that conversation of,

what do you like? Okay, well, this is what I like and they kind of come to a middle ground. When you watched him interact with Aaron, what was it like to kind of see him inject that feedback and kind of take it from the quarterback and take all that stuff into account as they were trying to shape it up there?

Yeah, you know, I only got to really spend, I mean, I was there in OTAs, Aaron won around, and then the first week I was there last year, he was out with COVID and then I was around him that following week. You know, so they obviously have had established their relationship and how they worked in a year prior and then, you know, up to the point of that season, it was towards the middle of the season whenever I was there. But Aaron's obviously extremely intelligent, but doing it for a long time.

He's obviously really good at it. You know, so I think it's kind of known what he wants, what he likes. And, you know, the one thing, regardless of if it's, you know, Aaron or if it's Russell now in Denver, his ability to, you know, like you were saying, to get out of you what you want to run. You know, he's not going to let the, kind of the cliche, just like, yeah, that's fine. I'll find a way to make it work. You know, he wants you as the quarterback to love every single thing that he's calling and be

on the same page with them kind of expecting and anticipating the call coming in in certain situations. And he's so good at getting it out of you and finding a way to make you comfortable enough to be able to tell them what you like and don't like. Give me an example from due time in Jacksonville, you remember, where he had to kind of hold out of you a little bit. There is a lot. I mean, I was young at that time and was still, I mean, in my second year was still, you know, even past that, trying to figure out the game. So, you know, and you come from college where in most cases, I know at least in mine, you're told

what to do, right? You have little to no input and the stuff you're running, the scheme you're on, and the play's being called. And then you get to the NFL and it's kind of a bit of a different story. So, you know, it took me a bit to adjust to that and be able to, you know, speak up for yourself in a meeting and say, I don't like that play. I'm uncomfortable with that. Because at the end of the day, you're the one that's got to go run it. And if you don't like it as a quarterback, it's not going to work. And I think like the root of our relationship and how it carried over from, you know, his transition to quarterback coach to offensive coordinator was so good because he was the guy originally that I would vent to in our position meetings, right? So Greg Olson was an offensive coordinator who was incredible, right? there's things where, you know, as a 22, 23-year-old kids, like, not really comfortable yet, speaking up in front of everybody, you know.

He's the boss, yeah. Yeah, I didn't feel like I knew enough to question them on certain things. And then you get, you know, myself and Chad Henney and Nate in the closet in the back of the building. And it's like, dude, that play fucking sucked, man. There's no way we can run that. So we, that was kind of how it started, which I think happens in probably every quarterback room across the league.

So then when he took over his offensive coordinator, obviously he knew that. So I remember him multiple times saying, like, you have nobody to go bitch to about this. So if you have a problem with it, let's just talk about it in here. And, you know, that kind of gave me the confidence to say, you know, I don't know if I'm right or not, but I got a question on this or I got an issue with it. Let's at least get it out in the open and talk about it and have you either walk me through it to make me feel better about it or he's totally fine with Nixon anything in a game plan and coming up with something else.

This is probably a hard question to answer, but I'm wondering, what was different about the way that he saw things, whether it was the way that he saw how to see, sequence plays, whether it was the way that he looked at a defense, how did his brain kind of work differently in the way that he would digest information than some of the other coaches that you'd work with? You know, I think, I mean, first of all, I think, you know, like I've said, his ability to adjust, he has, you know, probably only he could tell you what his core principles and beliefs are as far as what he wants to be as a play caller in the system where it all comes from.

You know, we can all kind of guess on it until he actually sat down and described it. you know, I don't know if you know for sure, but I think his ability to take that, right, what he believes in and adjust it, his versatility to utilize personnel groupings and skill sets on any offense he's a part of is the best I've ever seen. For him to go on, you know, a week-to-week basis, you know, interchanging game plans and completely mixing things up while still staying, you know, relatively true to what the offensive identity is, is the best I've seen and been around. I think, you know, that combined with him, you know, which everybody kind of does now,

as far as marrying things up, is always a part of it. You know, we're going to run these certain formations every single week. Here's the runs we have out of them. Here's the screens we have out of them. Here's the play actions we have out of them, you know, which is a common thing throughout the league to make everything look the same. same. And I think his feel for calling plays is, uh, is, is, is as good as I've ever been around. I mean, he, I know for, uh, for a fact, he put me in some unbelievable positions that,

you know, I had nothing to do with it. It was kind of just do the basic task of what you're here to do. And, you know, his play calling has set up, uh, everything else. I've, you said this earlier, I think you're talking to the, the Broncos website, just saying that you can do all the shit you want with the tweaks on motions and formations and stuff, but you still have to call the game and he's very good at it. What makes a good play caller? What differentiates a good one from a bad one? I think at the end of the day, I think there's probably, I don't know, maybe some people would have a different opinion on this, but I think situationally, first down, second, down, third down, the quarter of the game to score,

you know, there's there's an, not an infinite, but probably 15 plays that you can call in any situation. And at some point throughout the history of football in that exact situation, all 15 of those plays at work probably, right? So there's a bit of luck, I'm sure, involved in it, right? There's a bit of guessing on, you know, what the defense is going to give you. There's a bit of trust in the quarterback, making sure everything goes the way it's supposed to, and the rest of the offense, you know, executes what they're supposed to do. But I think at the end of the kind of that chess match of offensive coordinator and quarterback kind of as a team against the defensive coordinator and making sure you're in a right situation and, you know, kind of making

sure everything's dialed up at the right time. I'm putting you on the spot here, but is there a tweak or an idea that you can remember from being in Jacksonville with him? You're like, shit, that's good, just that you thought was particularly smart and sticks with you even a few years later. You know, for me, it was after being around a couple of offenses and seeing, you know, how things are differently throughout the NFL. I thought his brilliance, for me at least, kind of was in the simplicity of how he was able to communicate things through, you know, one thing I always enjoyed that we did in Jacksonville was we met as an offensive unit after every single practice of every single day. You know, it's not like that everywhere. Some places you don't ever meet as a unit. You

just go straight to position meeting. So I think in doing that, he ran the entire meeting. Everybody was on the same page. Everybody knew the ins and outs of every single play. And I mean, wide receivers heard calls that offense alignment should make. And offense alignment heard, you know, routes and blocking patterns from the running backs and tied in. So everybody knew what everybody was supposed to be doing, which I thought was great

as far as an accountability standpoint and everybody being on the same page. But I thought his ability to. to have all-encompassing plays that were, you know, I've been in systems where there's three or four plays called in the huddle and each play has a specific look. So you get a look, you got to get to this, you don't, you got to get to this. I thought Nathaniel was really good at kind of putting all that into a play with an alert and kept it simple. It kept guys playing freely. And I think that was probably something that, you know, was part of his versatility and adjusted. And it felt that, you know, we responded to as an offense in Jacksonville.

But it was, to me, that was a really cool thing that he was able to do. That's really interesting because I think that if you look at the way the defenses in the league are shaped now, it's to take away your ability to do that before the snap. If everyone's lining up the same way with those shells and those two high looks, it's so you can't just have, I have a cover three-beater, I have a cover one beater, I can dial this up in the right moment. All-purpose plays are probably more important right now than they've ever been in the history of the league. And the fact that that's what he's after, I think kind of aligns.

nicely with where the league is at right now right no totally i mean i've been in offense and and honestly it's hard pre-snap at times to tell right because they know your dummy count they know you're not going to snap until there's a second or two left on the play clock so they know not to show their hand into the last possible second so to try and get in you know the specific play for a specific look can get really hard and um you know i think like we were talking about like he was able to do i mean there was always usually a run and pass involved in there somewhere but you know you had the ability to go either way with the run away from pressure. And then passwise, it was like, yes, just call it and run it. We have built-in answers. You know, if you get manned, people

are staying on the run. We got answers here. If you get zone, if it's crossers, guys are sitting. Everybody knows exactly where the landmarks are supposed to be. They can sit. We get too high. You alert the guy over here. You get quarters alert the big post. It was kind of, there was something versus everything. Obviously, you can't, you know, you can't prepare for everything. But the, you know, based off the situation, here's their top three coverages. They've played all season long. Let's have an answer for all three. them within this one concept. Yeah, that makes total sense.

So now that you're looking to him being a head coach, what are you most excited about? Are you excited about people finding out what he's like? Are you looking forward to seeing if he's going to be successful? I mean, somebody that you've had this sort of relationship with getting this opportunity. What are you looking forward to? Yeah, I think just watching it, I told him this a week or two ago. I shot him a text and I was like, dude, I can't wait to watch a Nathaniel Hackett-led football team on Sunday.

I think the energy that a team would play with with a guy like that in charge and talking and kind of dictating the attitude and the mood of the team, I think will be special and I think will be entertaining to watch. You know, I think combine that with obviously a really good group of football players and a talented team. I mean, I look forward to watch them. Was there ever a moment when you have that every day, when that's the guy you're hearing from every single day and it's six in the morning and you've had a long week, I'm sure

there are moments, just like, God, this guy's a lot. How do you get past that? Like, how does the fatigue not set in when someone has that sort of energy that's dictating what your work life is like every day? It's, he's so positive and so enthusiastic and enjoyable to be around that even, like, in the worst of moods, you know, you can only last like three or four minutes until he'll find a way to get you out of it. You know, it's, and you're 100% right. There's days where you're in that. there's six o'clock and it's like, dude, hey, this is brutal. And he just does not stop talking. And it's like, all right, eventually after five or ten minutes of this,

it's like, I'm not going to just continue to be miserable. Man, all right, I'll just fake my way out of this rut you're in, you know, or it's late in training camp at night and he's the same way. It's, you know, I think the one thing you can, you can always count on with Nathaniel Hackett is he's going to be the same person. I'm really interested in the fact that I asked him this last week. I was like, did your experience with Aaron inform what it's like with Ross? where you're like, all right, we're figuring out what the offense looks like.

I'm taking your input. And I would have to assume that they're going to have similar growing pains to the one they had in Green Bay in 2019. Like it wasn't gangbusters right away. He wasn't winning MVP's in year one. But it does feel like he's the right personality to work through some of those growing pains and fits and starts. Yeah, I agree 100%.

I don't think there's a better personality to where if you're going to have struggles, which, you know, can be kind of expected, like you just said, with a first year quarterback in a first year offense with a first year head coach, you know, I think there's, there's nobody better to navigate that adversity than him, you know, for the reasons we kind of just talked about in the sense of he's going to be the same every single day. You lose five straight, you win five straight. He'll be the same packet in the building every single day. And I, you know, I think guys really gravitate towards that. You know, it's not, you're not riding the emotional roller coaster of highs and lows on a weekly basis based on a

the outcome. And I think that happens at places and it's not going to happen there. So his ability to do that, you know, like we've talked about, his ability to to probably have, you know, form the relationship with Russell to where I'm sure he feels comfortable saying whatever he wants as far as, you know, how they can find a way to be successful and move the ball on offense. They'll figure that out together. I don't have a doubt about that. Awesome. Anything else you feel like we should know about him before we wrap up here. Yeah, I mean, there's all kinds of embarrassing stories that he probably wouldn't be happy about.

But no, he's a really good dancer. I've heard about this. How many times did he, like, dance in front of you guys? He never really did. I don't know if he did in Green Bay or not. Guys used to try and get him to dance, like, in the team meetings and stuff, and he won it. But, like, every now and then, obviously,

music being played at practice, you look over and he'd kind of just be dancing in the corner by himself and then realize somebody was watching them and stopped. And this isn't like, I'm a pretty good dancer at a wedding type stuff. This is, he was like a hip-hop dancer in college. Like, he actually knows what he's doing. Yeah, I'm not for certain on this. You'd have to ask him, but I'm pretty sure, like,

he reached a fork in the road in, like, his life. And it was pursue being an elite backup dancer for whatever, you know, pop or hip-hop star or go-coach football. And he obviously just football. But yeah, I'm pretty sure he was pretty talented at it. I'd say it worked out okay. Yeah, I think he made the right choice for sure. Blake, thank you very much for the time.

This is really, really fun. I really appreciate you doing it. Absolutely, Robert. I appreciate you having me, man. Take care. All right. I'm joined now by a long time NFL wide receiver and someone who has a pretty unique perspective on Mike McDaniel.

Pierre Garsohn, Pierre, thank you very much for doing this, man. Thank you. Thank you. It's a pleasure of mine. All right. Let's go to the beginning. Because when you came to Washington, I believe Mike was already there in some capacity. He was a quality control or just like a lower level offensive assistant. What was his role on the staff when you got to Washington as a free agent? When I got to Washington, Mike was probably helping to, he was probably helping the offensive line or the tight,

Sean McVey was up in the tight ends. He was right helping the offense room over there. Yeah, it was the pack coach room. He was helping. I don't know exactly who was helping with, but like my second or third year, he was the receiver coach. Yeah.

And that's when I had my best year. It was probably my second year. My second year, he was the receiver coach. And so I had my best years in Washington, but he was probably helping the offense the line or the quarterback, one of the two positions. I want to go back to the beginning because what was your first impression of him? Because the first time I met him, I was just like, this does not seem like an NFL football

coach. I mean, he's very smart. The way he looks, the way he talks. I mean, he's unlike anybody I think I've ever talked to in this world. So when you first saw him and we're interacting with him, what were your first impressions of him? I thought it was like to cool guy, just, you know, laid back. He has everything under control.

You know, he knows everything about everything. He's very smart. You know, he tries to be, you know, funny and throws in a little sarcastic jokes, but, you know, not everybody catches it. But I kind of just what are you're saying because, you know, we kind of are similar in ways. But he's a very, very unique guy. But he definitely has the attention and keeps it going and keeps it interesting. So when he was your position coach, you mentioned it was your best year in Washington. You caught 113 passes.

I believe you led the league in receptions that year when he was your position coach in 2013. How was he different as a receiver coach than other guys you'd play for in the past? Well, me and him always connected because we kind of speak the same language. You kind of are our backs are always against the wall where we have to perform to, you know, to keep going, to keep moving forward. And that's the business we're in. But when he was like my receiver coach, he was, I felt like he was mostly always talking to me. You know, because I was the leader in the room. I was the leader in the locker room.

So whatever the coach is asking any player to do, I feel it's coming to me first. So that's how we, our relationship kind of grown and built it. And I felt like, you know, it was an obligation for me to work off her to make my coach who did. You know, it was it was our relationship was how I wanted it to be. And, you know, he understood it. And he communicated it very well to me. So I remember talking to Andrew Hawkins a few years ago, and he was Andrew's position coach in Cleveland in 2014, coached in receivers. And Andrews told me that, you know, I would study all the time.

I'd study receiver tapes and, you know, different technique things. And when I played for Kyle and Mike in 2014, they kind of rewired the way I understood the position. As somebody that considered himself a student of it, did you feel that? Did you feel that he would just have insights and little technical things about how to approach the position? that even somebody who'd been in the league for a while hadn't really considered before? Oh, yeah, they definitely, because their offense, Cal and Mike, their offense is unique to this scheme

where you have to see the alignments of different positions and you kind of understand where to go or you have an idea of where they're going. But it was a unique approach. You had to see different positions, but they did show it from a different point. It was just another way how they ran their system. There's other ways to do it.

You know, an indie, you kind of watch a lot of other individual routes. And then as you go to Cal and Mike Channing, Mike McDaniel offense, you kind of read the whole field. You read what everybody's doing. So it's a little bit of unique twist, but it works for them. Give me an example. Like, what would you have to take into consideration as you were making a decision on a given play?

Well, most of it is alignment. How we line up is, you know, very important, and how the defense aligns, because they're defending us and we can see if they're out of position or in perfect position. So when they're in perfect position, we still have to overcome that. But when they're out of position, we know that we have them beat. I remember talking to him before the Super Bowl a couple years ago when they were playing against the Chiefs. And obviously his background is different. And a lot of the guys on that staff that you played with, that you played for in Washington

and eventually followed Kyle to San Francisco, whether it's both Mike's other people, He said that because we didn't play in the league, we feel like we have a constant obligation to give our players answers to prove our worth to them. Did you feel that from him? Oh, yeah, they definitely give a lot, give out a lot of information. Sometimes it can be too much because when you're playing, it's more of a reaction instead of, hey, this is what's going to happen. But they do provide a lot of information to the players. And some players love it. Some players like, hey, I need to see it to believe it.

And it's great that they do that because, you know, in football, it's all about communication and preparing for what's going to happen. And if you're well prepared for which these coaches do a great job of, you know, it creates success. You've said in this conversation and other places I've read when you were talking about him, that he's a really good communicator. What makes a coach a good communicator? He's very versatile. Well, diverse, he definitely loves to talk about it.

I think he would be Yale. Yeah, he did. He loves talking about how he goes to yelling. You know, he loves to communicate. He loves interacting with people. And, you know, he's very content with himself, too. So it's just a breath of fresh air when you're talking to him. And you can see how excited he is to just talk to you and give information and try to relate.

He's very relatable type of person. In terms of the ideas themselves, you know, you talk about it can be a little bit complex in that offense, especially playing receiver in that offense. how do you think he did in terms of distilling some of that down where he's taking a complex idea and making it a little bit simpler for you? Do you feel like he had a strength there that other people just don't? Honestly, no, I had to tell them. I had to tell him, hey, hey, this is way too complicated. I had to say, like, hey, let's keep it because they would always have names for different alignments.

And we're like, dude, like, you know, it's too much. let's go backwards because we still have to read the defense, run the route, you know, play football. When the play calling is long and difficult, the emotion that you add with it, the alignment, it becomes overwhelming. And they took that, they understood it, but they did try to use common words that are relatable to what we say every day. You know, it's like we have an alignment called. plus or max or you know like these things are key words that are simple words that helps us

you know not have to think about it but know what it means so you there were more different types of alignments that wasn't just like a condensed split or you were split out wide it was there were variations on all of those and there were more of those within that offense than others that you had played in is what you're saying yeah yeah well yeah i've only played for one other NFL offense and we didn't move at all we You stayed in position and that was in Indy where we stayed on the one side of the field, right side, left side or a slot. But, you know, in DC with Mike McDaniel, it was more, this is a condensment.

This is a max split. This is a number split. This is a hash split. This is, you know, and these are just alignless. This is not the play yet. When the play actually started within that offense, what type of things are you taking into account that maybe you didn't have to an indie. How many layers of your decision making are there within an individual play within that system? It wasn't too many. Once you see the plays that are being drawn up, you know

it's a play to take, we call it take it to the house where, you know, it's designed for a touchdown. It's designed, you know, for a big play. Any play over 20 yards, and the NFL is a big play. So you can see it. But once you're properly aligned, It's easy because it's the route, which is more important to us than alignment. But to catch the defense in a great position, you have to align correctly. I'm wondering, so you left for him for four years. He left in 2013. That's when they all got fired.

And then you came back to San Francisco in 2017. How was he different in 2017 than the guy you had left in 2013? too. He's funnier. He's wiser. He's more comfortable. He communicates. You know, when you have more experience, you know, you kind of understand what's going to happen. And he's, he's put all those years of experience. He was the run game coordinator. He was he was all around the whole offense when I reconnected with him in San Francisco. And, you know, it was it was great. because you can see the growth, he's seen my growth, and it was easier to talk to him,

because we had something that we can relate to and reference and continue that great communication because we've had our great years, our best years together, so it was fun, it was open, and hopefully he continued to have better years, but it was a guy that was, you know, more able to understand and relate and communicate. The same thing you had,

he just got better at it, honestly. He's still the same guy. He just had more years and experience. So I'm wondering, both in Washington and in San Francisco, he's kind of been Kyle's right-hand guy for a long time. They've been with each other at various different types of stops. How do you feel like the way he saw the game, some of his ideas, even the way he communicated,

complemented where maybe some of Kyle's blind spots were? The way he saw the game, I think both of them kind of saw it similar. They wanted big plays. That's the day and age we're in. We're wanting the big plays. They want the athletes. They want the guys that can take it out. Because, you know, the run sets up the passing.

And when you get the chance to pass it, you want it to be an explosive because if they can't stop this. If they stop in this ring and they can't stop this passing game, you have them off balance. But I think they saw it very similar. I think McDaniel was more, I guess, my guess, my. modern, more futuristic, I guess. He brought in a lot of motions and stuff like that. But I think for executing the plays and explosive plays, it was all green lights. We were all the same page.

Every play was like, hey, this is the one that's going to take us to the end zone. When he was bringing those new motions or kind of new ideas, new spins on the run game, do you remember some of the places those things were coming from when they would kind of show you a play? Was it from- Those guys were still plays from everybody. Okay. It's a copy cat. It's a copycat league.

Those guys were still plays from everybody. If, let's say, you know, because the cowboys or the, like, they watch so much for them and they get ideas from so many places. They try to, you know, interjecting into their offense, make it seem, and add their own little twist to make it seem like, you know, they threw their own little twist on it to be original but they all take place from each other. We've seen our plays being taken. It's research that they're doing and there's just adding a little twist to it.

When he was your position coach, he's probably two, three years older than you at that point, which I'm sure probably felt a little bit different. I mean, what kind of stuff would you guys talk about that wasn't football? I know he's huge into shoes. I'm sure I'm sure you could talk about to him almost more like a peer. or than you did as a coach at times. Oh, yeah. Mike loves to dress up.

He loves his shoes. He loves, you know, let me say you can swag. His swag. But he definitely was a fashion guy, family guy. You know, we can definitely talk about his gear all the time. Music as well. But yeah, because we're such close in age, we talk about so many other stuff that probably isn't for the public, but it's things.

We're more like brothers and very close friends instead of like coached and player. And I guess that feel to just the way he interacts with guys, the way he communicates with that guys. How do you think that projects with him being a head coach? Because he has a different feel to him and a different flavor to him than I think any other head coach in the league has. How do you see that kind of clicking or resounding with players? I think it, well, for me, I think it works well because he's a good person. And you want to play hard for a good person. We all have the same goals.

You want to make that person proud of you happy for you because you're working together. I think, you know, that relationship where players want to play for somebody like that, He's not, hey, you know, trying to embarrass you in front of the media or the co- or other peers, but he has an expectation for you. It's what we're here for. It's what we're here to do is, you know, to exceed those expectations. But for players, they want to play for somebody that they like. All the players like him. You know, he's not some guy that's trying to, you know, let you know, he is the head coach.

He's like, all right, this is the head coach. You know, he don't have to remind people that he's the head coach. He's just a great guy in that position, and players love to play for great people. Do you think he can command that room? Do you think he has that presence to kind of be that guy? Yeah, he has that presence through his words. Obviously, his physical stature is the biggest. But when you talk about your goals every day, when you talk about what you're trying to accomplish

and where you're trying to go, you know, that's the leadership. that's where it was important to the players because this is the same message that's being driven every day. Yeah, I remember talking to a head coach a couple years ago and I asked him just, what do you think is the most important quality to succeed at this job? And he said you have to command the room. Like you just have to have that command. And I guess just his version of that will be a little bit different. It'll just be a little bit different.

Like watching Dan Campbell on Hard Knocks yesterday is very, very different than the way that Mike McDaniel is going to be up there at the front of that team meeting. and that can be okay. I just think it's such an interesting contrast with what we've come to expect from like the archetypal football coach at times. Yeah, it's changing. You know, football changes all the time. And I love Dan Campbell because he was an actual football player. You know, he actually, you know, played the game, put the shoulder pads on.

But, you know, being up in Detroit, it's tough. You know, it's, you know, you can command the team. But if you get Ws, it makes it better. You know, it's like, all right, you have a great style and strategy, but we still need it to work, you know, and I'm not saying Dan Campbell is not a great coach, but it's just like, hopefully we get some ws for him because, you know, I like the way he's, he coached too. I like his style of coach him, but I also like Mike McDaniel. I like the way he lets us know about the goal, you know, this is what we're trying to come. This is our standard. This is our expectation.

You know, that sets the tone right there. Awesome. Well, that's all I got for you. I sincerely appreciate the time and the insight. I feel like everyone is watching him with a lot of curiosity. No, of course. I mean, I can't even tell you the first time I ever met him again before the Super Bowl a couple years ago and we were having a conversation.

And everyone at the Super Bowl has the Super Bowl year on. It's like a windbreaker. It's something. Like everyone's wearing the same shit. And he's wearing like a $250 hoodie and Tom Ford glasses. And he looked like, I think the joke that I made is he looked like he could work for a tech company. Like he looked like he worked from Grizzle from Parks and Rec. Like he didn't look or feel like a football coach.

And I think that's why there's this fascination with him. And we've seen some of the jokes he's made at press conferences and stuff like that. And that type of guy now being the face of an organization and being a head coach and what that ultimately looks like, it's hard to look away from that. And I'm sure a lot of people are going to be very interested in how it ultimately works. Yeah, we're all excited to see how it works out. I hope he does well. He's been put in the right position.

He's got quarterback. He's got receivers. Those are the starting ammunition that he would need. I'm sure he'll figure out with the details and get everything else going. But I'm excited to see how it plays out. And he's close to me too. So he's closing in my backyard. Awesome.

Pierre, thank you very much for the time, man. Really appreciate it. Thank you, man. I appreciate you guys. All right, very happy now to be joined by former Buffalo Bill, former Kansas City Chief, longtime NFL fullback. Pat DeMarco, Pat, thank you very much for doing this. Of course.

Thanks for having me all. I'm looking forward to it. So I really just want to have a version of a conversation you and I had two years ago when I did a story about Brian Dayball. Really, before I thought he was going to get a head coaching job after that 2020 season. It didn't happen. And you had such unique perspective because you played for him. at the beginning of your career, and then you played for him at the end of your career.

And he was a different coach at those two stops. And I think it's for a lot of different reasons. And the phrase you used the first time we talked that I thought was so telling was creative swagger. And that was the difference between him at the end compared to what he was in KC, really during one of his first stops as an offensive coordinator. And you said that really defined him as a play caller when he was with the bills. When you say creative swagger as it relates to him these days, what do you mean by that?

I just, like, he's truly himself and he can literally care less to other people think of him. Like, he's going to go about his business to his business. His way, he knows, I mean, obviously he's been with so many successful programs. He kind of knows the blueprint of it. But he's going to be just genuinely himself. And, I mean, I think that's where he really. won the players over. I mean, he would come into meetings and

obviously be assertive and all that, but he would also ask for our take and would have a sense of what we felt comfortable doing. It would blend it into what he wanted to do ultimately. So big time players coach, but I just, I love that he was going to be himself. He was

going to, he cared enough with every single player to develop a relationship. And, you know, I think that's really separated him apart. I mean, him and Josh's relationship completely blossomed. I mean, I can't speak for their behalf now, but I would imagine they still talk quite often, even though they're not on the same team anymore. But he just did a great job of developing that relationship. So in 2019, he came in and the way that you framed it to me is that the bones of the offense were pretty similar to what they would have been in Kansas City,

just because it really was born of that New England system, which is where he comes from initially. But then in 2020, as the personnel changes a little bit, as Diggs gets there, as Josh is starting to develop in his career, he walks in before the season is like, we're going to do things a little bit differently now. What do you remember about just those initial OTA meetings in 2020 and how much of the offense evolved going into that second year? Yeah, I think they, he did a great job of catering everything to Josh. like ultimately like what makes an offense go around it's the success of your quarterback because we're in a quarterback driven league now i mean all football is but how are we going to be able to reach josh the most easiest what's josh's best way to learn how we're like how do we make josh be the sixth overall pick or whatever he was like how do we develop him into that and they did a good job of finding how he learned so like josh was like we kind of changed our complete meeting dynamic to cater to Josh. And it was awesome because it ended up being a way that a lot of our guys learned. So we changed our meeting.

Say more about that because I remember us talking about that. And I thought it was the most interesting idea about the way that he started doing those meetings. Yeah. So we basically went from being, instead of being sitting in a team meeting room, everyone with their notes and pens and paper out, we did our run install that way. We did our intro to the team, the scouting report, intro to the team that way. But when we were going past install, we basically stole a walker.

through into our meeting, meeting time. So we were able to, we went into our, I mean, the the buff facility state of the art, but they did like a 20 yard turf field in the weight room with projectors that came down. So we would do our past game install and we'd even walk through some of the run game install in that meeting. So we'd have an hour meeting out there on this small turf field with drop down projectors, install play coach Dave was sit up there and install the playwood intro or we're going to be in trips right we're going to be in 57 protection this is going to be the strong side concept this is going to be weak side concept back this is what you're doing is where your keys are depths of routes we kind of go through it then we'd be like all right ready

break and then josh would cadence roll through it and we'd walk through it and josh would be able to see on the projectors what the depths were where where f was where y was and then we'd walk through it you know he'd step through we wouldn't have a real football out there but we would go through the motion but we'd come back everyone get back to lined up um um So it was just, it was really cool. And then we got into the world of the fastball, where we were able to one word play calls for, for everything. So Josh was able to, Josh has, like, his memory is incredible.

The dude, I don't know if you've talked to him, but he can quote, he has 10 movie quotes from every single movie. Like, he just has an incredible memory in that sense. So, like, obviously he's very good at memorization. So we were able to do, like, one word play calls. This is the play call. Boom. And that's formation, motion, shift.

protection, concepts, and any abbreviation to a possible. That was one word. So I was like, bang, Superman, ready, break. Everybody goes and gets lined up, and, like, we were able to play fast. Josh was able to process fast. So he just really catered to Josh. And, you know, as soon as you have a quarterback to buys in and starts having that success, everybody else just falls into place.

And part of the reason I think some of those New England guys have failed in the past, and this is a generalization. But I do think it's fair, is that they kind of live. in a box. They do their best impersonation of what they think a head coach should be based on what they'd seen there. And I think that there was a certain level of rigidity to his first couple stops.

You install the offense in Casey or install the offense in Cleveland. It's like, this is what we're going to run. I'll tell you why we're going to run it, but this is where it has to live and this is why it has to live this way. And there's only one guy that wears number 12. And that you're going to make these difference. And that's exactly right. So when you can do

that, that's fine. But when he gets to Buffalo, you know, I remember you tell me that Beasley would come with stuff that they ran at SMU and he'd be like, oh, we can try this. And all of the different things he was open to and all of the different ways he was willing to evolve. And if you talk to Brian, he wouldn't want me saying where he gets them, but he looks in weird places for a lot of ideas. And I think that constant willingness to have the notebook and his brain open, that comes with confidence as a coach later in your career.

And I think that he's really tapped into what makes him good, and it breeds that sort of confidence. Yeah. I mean, we would have Saturday mornings sometimes if it was a home game or away game. He'd have like the offensive captains, the nucleus, the six of us. He'd call us into the office before everything kind of got underway that day. But he would call us all in there and he kind of would go through the openers, explain to what he's thinking, what we like, what we didn't like. But he'd also, like, he'd explain us, you know, I was watching this last night and kind of complete validation on why we're doing this and check out these three plays.

This is why we're doing this. It would like kind of like fact check us and make sure that we were on the same page as them and saw stuff the exact same as him. But he'd also like, the hay's never in the barn for him. At least that's the generalization I was got from. There's always something to do to get the edge. But then he'd like, would it be like that meeting we'd be coming to an end and be like, hey, one second. I saw this in a two minute.

from back in 2016, what this team did. They'd run similar coverages, and I was rolling through this. And I really, like, this is going to gash these guys. Like, this is it. And so, like, even Saturday, he's still digging in there, fine on that little piece that's going to separate us. And obviously, the way the offense played the last three years in Buffalo, like, obviously it's, it did its justice.

And it makes total sense if you've ever had a conversation with him. It takes real effort for him to be present in a conversation. because his mind is always going. And it's not in a way where he doesn't want to listen to you or he doesn't want to be there. He's just always going. And it lends to stuff like that where it's any idea. It's like, what if we did this a little bit differently? And it's hard for him to shut the notebook.

It's just really, really difficult for him to do that. And one of the areas that, you know, you and I have talked about and even talking about with him, I think he's very conscious of is, how do I make protections easier? And when we're trying to differentiate good and bad offensive coaches in the league, I think it's little details like this. And you explained to me that he did such a good job of based on situation, formation, every single layer to what a defense would be bringing as far as pressure goes. He was able to limit the menu. Talk a little bit about what kind of things he'd be able to pick up on to make things easier for you as a back and pass protection. Yeah, well, I mean, he was the first coach that I ever had that really, really separate. fight it down to two by two and three by one protections of why they're so different.

Which thinking of it now, I'm like, and that's formationally two by two formations, three by one formations with the receivers. Yes. And like looking back, I'm like, yeah, that really that kind of does change everything, right? Because like that's where the nickel's traveling. That's where the safety's going to be over the top. Like weeks out of it three by one, you really don't have many threats. And if there are threats, it's obvious.

Safety's off the hash. The corner's coming. The safety's rolling down the backer stack. like you can only do so much two by two is a different monster two by two you can kind of disguise a lot more there's a lot more you know you can have an extra back from the box

the nickel doesn't have to be so far out he can kind of linger there's just a lot of different stuff you can do at a two by two so he was able to simplify it and cater their protections that the line was always going to slide away from the two by twos and was always going to slide to the three by ones which was a big thing that I thought and it really cleaned up and it helped the back and he was able to teach it

way up the back that if you're protect if if the if you're ideal guy on the protection if you're if your responsibility if he cuts he's cutting for a reason and three by one the will's going to run if they're bringing four strong so if sam strong safety or mike sam are coming then you got to travel but if he doesn't if he doesn't cut you're good because they can't bring four that way like you just what you mean by cut so basically and i wish i had like a little chalkboard Listen, we always do on this show. We always wish we had a chalkboard. Yeah.

So basically the will linebacker, if you're in a three by one, if you bring it like a strong dog, like Mike Sam, the will has to travel because he either has to cover Y or he has to cover F's. And safety will roll down and cover the slot receiver. But somebody has to buzz across the field to get to number three on the strong side. So the will has to, instead of dropping back like you would be in a cover two or buzzing out to the flat and like a cover three, he has to cut across. the field. So he's full on opening up his hip and he's hauling butt across the field to go to cover number three. So if you're will linebacker and I think it's, I think it was 63 or 62, 63 or 64, 65 protection with him. If he turned and opened and ran across the field, you better follow him. So you have to almost follow your responsibility. And he just like almost that simple.

Like I just explained it to you in two minutes. But it was like, it was like Eureka. Like holy cow, three by one protection. Wow, it's pretty easy now. And I brought that to South Carolina. And a lot of people are like, wow, that's, holy cow. Like, that simplifies stuff a lot. Now you don't have to look at much. Just look at your responsibility.

If he doesn't cut, then you have built a weak force and weak corner, like all that stuff's right in front of your face. He, and that makes total sense because I think the way he bucket certain ideas. And what he really likes to do, and he's explained it to me this way, is how can I take as much off the quarterback's brain as possible. And sometimes you do that formationally. And if you look at what they did in the back half of last season, when they were using Reggie Gilliam a little bit more,

which I'm sure that was just music to your ears, watching that kind of stuff again, when they were in 21 personnel and they had two backs on the field, there are only four or five play calls typically on defense that you're going to get out of two back formations, especially now because they're so rare. So you're putting a team in base defense, and you're not asking the quarterback to do a ton.

So you're essentially limiting the menu of what he has to attack, but you're also kind of giving the quarterback a play off mentally because there's so few things that he has to think about. And that's, I think, what really good smart offensive coaches do. It's, I'm not going to give you the answer every time, but I'm going to let you know it's one of five answers instead of one of 25 answers. And I think he's very good at consistently doing that, whether it's with formations, motions, shifts,

just kind of pairing it down and making the game simpler for guys in real time all of the time. Yeah, I'm not sure if it was Dave's or if it was Kyle Shanahan, but he basically said that when we get in two backs, we just dumb the defense down. Yeah. So basically just limit their menu. They can only do X amount of things. And then when you get in two backs, like you just put guys in bad situations. You can get empty out of it.

You can make your Mike Landbacker's Garden, your. you're tied in or shoot, move Cole Beasley inside. Cole Beasley number three, make the Mike linebacker after cover Colby's, good luck. So just different stuff like that. And I think one thing that he was always really good at was, I mean, football's math, right? It's, we make a simple game really hard by all the concepts and this and that,

but it's math. It's math and leverage. And that's stuff that he really mastered. How can I get, you know, if I got a three by one, or if I got a three-man bunch outside, I'm going to look and see where that safety. as or where that nick was. And if we got leverage outside,

if we can get the edge on them, boom, let's take it all day right now because we got two on two and one guy tracing from the inside trying to make a play on one of our best players. So I think he did a good job

of moving Cole Beasley around, moving guys like Stefan Diggs around, even Devon Singletary to get them matchups by manipulating with motions or shifts or formations, who was going to be covering who, why they were going to cover and what type of leverage they were going to have. And he really ate that stuff up. And I think that's where a lot of success came from.

It's very cool to watch somebody where by the end of the time in Buffalo, you couldn't even describe the offense. If you were trying to explain it to somebody, I think you'd probably say, well, it's wide open. You know, it's more spread concepts and they run more 10 personnel than most teams do, and especially in 2020, that was the case. And, you know, it's really quarterback-centric and they build it through Josh. But it's hard to kind of say it with more specificity than that because it's not, Well, they run the Shanahan offense or their version of the Patriots offense.

And what makes that really cool is that it allows him to borrow from anything. Because when you're building it through the quarterback, any ideas on the table. And even if you look at the staff he's built now, Mike Kafka was in Kansas City. They don't share offensive DNA, but he liked some of the stuff that she did. So he's like, I want that guy. And so I'm curious, what was the most interesting or strangest place you saw him steal an idea from during your few years together because of how much is on the table? You know, if I say, you know, when Baltimore was doing a lot of their jet motions,

flank motions rolling into running power, adding extra gaps in the run game stuff. I would say something along the lines of that kind of. I think it was Greg Roman was the run game coordinator, maybe offensive coordinator at a time, but different stuff that they were able to do by jet motioning the wide receiver, having them get set and then having the fullback coming trail or another tight-in coming trail where you're adding not only one extra gap but two extra gaps in a fly motion and then having the back go opposite. So bash him across, have the back misdirection. So the backers are flying across, having other guys moving the other way and then having the quarterback running element to it. So I would say like kind of that Baltimore stuff. I can't put my like finger on exactly what it was. But I know that we towards the tail end of it having jobs. with his mobility and what he's able to do running the ball, having almost like almost running like a triple option offense out of spread, if that makes sense.

Like being able to spread it out, have a bash motion, which could turn into a flat route, have the running back come across flat. So I'm reading the defensive end is defensive end upfield. Okay, cool. I'm pulling it. Now it's a quarterback run, but I also got my guy in the flat. So quarterback can run it.

If that guy comes and tries to contain it, spit it out like to the flatman. So essentially triple option offense, not the old triple option that Navy and Army run, but different sets of triple option offense. It's funny because the quarterback in Buffalo is bigger than the offensive linemen at Navy and Army. So you could do a few different things. Gosh, is a monster. So I'm wondering, you know, this is all stuff that makes him a really good offensive coach, structure, play calling. And we know that. And we know based on the results that they've had and how creative they were over the last few years in Buffalo that he does that job well. this is a new job.

What he's doing now, the asks and the responsibilities of a head coach are different than they are on an offensive coordinator. What do you think about a team head coached by Brian Davel? I think they're going to have their own identity. I think like Dave's is going to be genuinely himself. And that's that swagger that I was talking about. He's going to be himself. So he's going to obviously he has his roots in Bill Belichick and structure and everything they want to do. but I think he's going to give guys kind of their freedom to go out there and make plays and not be too governed.

But, I mean, he's been coaching for 20-plus years. He's been around a lot of winning programs. I mean, how many as he won four or five Super Bowls played in probably close to 100 playoff games? So, I mean, I'm excited to see what the product is. I mean, having a guy like Joe Shane there and they have such a tight relationship. and they see eye to eye on personnel and what they want to do and how they want to build this, how they want to build that organization. I think, no, and it's not like they fell in, like, obviously the Giants haven't been that good

historically through the last four or five years, but they have a pretty darn good nucleus. Like, they have a bunch of playmakers at receiver. They got a back that three years ago were like, this might be the MVP of the league. And they have a decent defense up front. Like, they're going to be able to hold. hold on. So I mean, I think, you know, in a year or two, I definitely think that we're going to be talking about the Giants and they're going to be building something pretty special. Obviously, there's growing pains. The first, what was 2019 in Buffalo, a day ball, the offense wasn't that pretty.

It was catered in 2020 and obviously just kind of rejuvenated. So there's going to be growing pains the first year, but it's all about the process. And a lot of these teams are very process driven. So I would imagine that it's going to rebound pretty quick there. I think they think the same thing. They've got some building blocks and the offensive line is a good area. The defensive line is an area that they feel pretty good about. By next spring, can they spend a little bit of money, get some more talent in there because they're going to have a lot to work with and what is that going to look like?

I'm with you. I can't wait to see what it is. Even with Daniel Jones and even with the team that I think still has a lot of retooling to do, how he thinks what ideas he thinks are the best expression of the players he has on offense. I want to know what the answer to that is because the answer over the last two years has been so fascinating. Yep. I mean, I mean, what they got the Tony kid. They have Gaudet.

You got Sequin, obviously. And they love Wondale, the guy that smaller slot receiver that they drafted in the second round and all the things that they can do with him. You know, now they have two young tackles and just, again, that blend of ideas. with him and Kafka and that he brought the offensive line coach over from Buffalo, so there's some continuity there and the ways that they're kind of kind of incorporate all that different kinds of stuff. And when you look at his staff in general, the idea, I want the offensive coordinator I want is from the chiefs, the defensive coordinator I got runs one of the most distinct

defense is possible in the NFL and how pressure-filled they are. It's just a fascinating collection of coaches, but it's a thoughtful collection of coaches. And I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of reason behind why he wanted this to be the model. And I just am really excited to see what it looks like in practice. Yeah, I mean, shoot, I was out at South Carolina's practice today. And I was sitting there and one of the Giantscouts was there. And I went up to him and I started chatting with him. Like, how's Dave's?

As Joe Shane, there's everything going up there. A lot of excitement. Like, I could hear in his voice that like they're building something special and that he, you know, he was impressed with everything he'd seen so far. And he's like, you know, the biggest thing is, you know, we drafted, what, they draft two or three offensive linemen. They drafted two in the first three rounds. They drafted one in the top ten,

and then they drafted a guard in the third round, who I think maybe a backup this year, but they have plans more in the future. He was talking about the mass that they have up front, and he's like, we're going to be able to line up and mall people, and we're going to do that, and we're going to be who we are going to be.

So that's one thing that he was really taken away on, and he was just really excited about kind of the energy that Dave's is bringing, and the guys they brought in and free agents and how it's just, like, how he already sees it starting to change. That's awesome. Yeah, they have a 325 pound center, so they're not exactly skimping on those guys

at front. Pat DeMarco, I sincerely appreciate the time, man. I really enjoyed it. The first conversation we had really enjoyed this one, and I'm sure a lot of people got a lot out of it. So thank you very, very much for spending the time. Of course. Thanks for having me on.

All right, guys, that's all we got. Thank you so much to Pat. Thank you so much to Blake. Thank you to Pierre. Really enjoyed their time and the insights that we were able to get from them. Me and Nate will be back on Monday. We're starting division previews. We're going to have a division preview every day next week.

We're going to have them roll out over the course of eight days. Those are going to bring us all the way to the day before kickoff, man. Really exciting time of year. I love doing these division previews. I just feel like it's a great way to get prep for the season, kind of digging in to everything about these teams before we get started. So I can't wait for you guys to start hearing those. We have a great line of the people that we're going to run through that entire division preview

you slate, really pumped about that. In the meantime, please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. Also, please subscribe to The Athletic, theathletic.com slash football show. I'm sure plenty of you have fantasy drafts this weekend. I know that mine is tomorrow, so I need some help figuring out who's playing, who's not, who's in the starting lineup, who's getting run with the ones. You can get that at the Athletic. Highly recommend. You go get a subscription right now if you do not have one. We'll be back on Monday. Enjoy your weekend. We'll talk to you soon. This was the Athletic Football Show.