The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - 2021 NFL All-Pro Team: Defense

Episode Date: January 5, 2022

The 2021 NFL All-Pro team discussion continues with the defense. Robert Mays welcomes back Trench Warfare’s Brandon Thorn to help select the defensive line. Then, former NFL player and current ESPN analyst, Matt Bowen fills out the roster for linebackers and defensive backs.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. The Athletic Football Show is presented by State Farm, because like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Get a quote today. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Great show for you guys today. Part two of our all-pro selections. We're doing the defense on this show.

Matt Bowen is going to be joining us a little bit later to talk about the defensive backfields, corners, safeties, and linebackers. Before we get to Matt, though, I'm thrilled to continue. you our conversation from the offensive show with Brandon Thorne. Brandt, let's get to the edge guys. This one also seems pretty easy. Man, so edge for me was pretty challenging. I know exactly why. I know exactly what you're going to say.

Miles Garrett is one of your first team guys, right? Yes. Okay. Yeah, absolutely. We'll start off there with Miles Garrett. So, you know, maybe the last few weeks hasn't really sustained, you know, some of the production that he has early in the year. but nonetheless, you know, one of the three or four most talented, I think, defensive players, period in the game.

I think you have to just look at, when you watch him on film this season, the amount of attention that he gets, it reminds me, the only comparison I can have to that, really, in terms of how many, like, double teams and chips and stuff like that that he's gotten is, like, Kalil Mack in his prime. You know, he just... God, implying that Kalil Mack is no longer in his prime just crushes my soul. even though it's true. Well, I don't know. I mean, I would love to think that he has one more year, you know, where he could be close to it, maybe 90%, but yeah, I mean, it's, you know,

it does kind of seem like that. But, but yeah, nonetheless, you know, Miles Garrett, his impact, even last night, you know, in that game against the Steelers, you know, I know what, four sacks or whatever. I mean, I think a lot of that has to do with Baker, you know, holding on to the ball maybe a little too long. Whereas Ben, you know, he knows. he cannot move. He's getting rid of the ball. And Miles Garrett, how quickly he has won this year consistently has just been, I don't know if I've ever seen anything like it. I mean, he is literally unblockable. You have to get rid of the ball literally when your back foot hits as a quarterback or you're getting hit by Miles Garrett. If you're not giving your offensive lineman any help, then that's almost a guarantee. So his ability to just turn the corner at his size and almost 280.

80 pounds. I mean, it's just, you know, he's the biggest freak show if I had to pick one guy in the NFL on the defensive side of the ball. It would be Miles Garrett. He's just, I don't even think it's close. No. I mean, it's the bend at 280 and then how fast that inside move happens. Oh my gosh. And just the fact that he can teleport into the C gap like that, when you have to worry about the speed. There's nothing you can do about that one on one. I mean, he has fully put it all together. He has, man. I mean, he can run right through. you as well. So like he could literally do it all. And he's very skilled, you know, like with his hands and stuff. He, you know, he just has it all. He's a total package. So I think it's no brainer. You have to

put him on here. And then, you know, next to him, I mean, I'm probably going to go with T.J. Watt. But like, it's, it's close for me. I think there's like a three-headed monster for the next three spots. But T.J. Watts, you know, accumulated a lot of production this year. You know, I know, I know, pressures. He's leading the NFL pressures right now. Um, you know, sacks, when you watch his sacks, they're not very impressive, um, honestly. But, you know, that's just from a specific, you know, player evaluation perspective with what I do with true sac rate and everything with my newsletter. I mean, I think he has before last night, um, he had three sacks the whole year that were high quality where he's beating a guy one-on-one. A lot of it is due to effort. I mean,

this guy, you know, so it may seem like a backhanded compliment, but he really is like a relentless player. And to be as athletic as he is and to be that relentless, he gets a lot of sacks that way. So, you know, it's extremely valuable. But when I'm talking about trying to evaluate and identify the best, you know, actual edge rushers in the league, that's why I think he's maybe two, three, four in the, you know, if you're slotting them as opposed to, you know, one because of his sacks and pressures. But nonetheless, he's, he's an outstanding player. He has a really good signature cross-chop move. He can win inside as well. He's, you know, one of the five best edge players in the league. I'm going to go second team, or excuse me, the second pick for my first all-pro team for

him because I do think this is his best year, you know, production is hard on. After for following it up with an outstanding year last year, he's just continued to build on it. But, you know, to me, there's kind of a delineation between him and Miles Garrett if you're, you know, saying, who do I want on my team if I'm picking right now kind of thing. So that's where, you know, defining all pros becomes interesting and kind of tricky. I think that Miles Garrett, I agree with you. I think that Miles Garrett has been the best edge player in the league this season. I just think play in, play out what he's been able to do, how you have to worry about him. He is, to me, clear cut number one. Even though I think that JJ Watt may win defensive player of the year simply because of the production.

And at a certain point, it's hard to argue with the production. I mean, on a snap-by-snap basis, he has, he doesn't lead the league in pressure just because he's missed a couple games. But on a snap, if you do it snap-by-snap, he's been one of the most efficient, if not the most efficient edge rusher in the league in creating pressure. So I feel like he's my other first-team guy with Miles Garrett. Second team, I had Nick Bosa just because, I mean, I feel like, talk about the amount of tension that he draws. It's crazy how often he gets double-teamed. much chip help he gets. I mean, he is the number one focus of every single offense that plays against him. Rightfully so, because he can absolutely wreck a game. So I had him as my first second

team guy. I'm curious who your second team guys are before I say my last one. Okay. So Nick Bosa was definitely one of mine. You know, I just think, you know, after Miles Garrity probably be my second pick, you know, if I'm picking any Ed Rush or to start a team with, probably be Nick Bosa. Um, and my my fourth guy or my second guy on this team is Robert Quinn. Me too. I'm biased, but I understand it. I might be too on it. I mean,

because I remember him coming out of North Carolina back in the day, like young in my, you know, fandom years and, you know, just starting to get into like trying to analyze a game. And like, I just remember his get off in North Carolina.

It was just like unlike anything I've ever seen. And then to see him, you know, in St. Louis. And like, I think in terms of pure skill and talent, he is on par with any of these guys. And to see him reclaim it at this stage of his career has just been truly just remarkable. I mean, for him to have whatever 19 sacks or whatever he has.

And he leads the league and, you know, like high quality sacks. He's only going to- explain what high-quality sacks are and how you calculate true sack rate because he leads the league and true sack rate according to the metric that you use. Yeah. So a high quality sack is beating a blocker one on one with a higher degree of skill or talent than the opposition. So it's, it's, you know, you're trying to find these scenarios where the quarterback's back foot just hits and within a second he's sacked. And it's not because he's unblocked. You know, sometimes the quarterback's back foot hits and, you know, the tackle blocked down and the end is free. It's a sack. I eliminate all that.

I eliminate if the quarterback's hitching, patting the ball, you know, the coverage is great. I eliminate those. So it's truly, you're beating the guy in front of you very quickly, one-on-one, you know, no extra help from a, you know, a linemate, not on a game typically or anything like that. And the quarterback has to just have, you know, hit his back foot and his drop. And you have to meet that criteria to get a high-quality sack. And then if you do it against a player who's like all pro or pro bowl type of guy. And then you get a rare high quality sack. Those are obviously, you know, those are hard to come by.

But in terms of high quality sacks, he's the only player in the league with 10 this year. You know, second is like Miles Garrett has nine. Nick Bosa has eight. You know, and I think this metric does a really nice job of identifying which pass rushers are, you know, the most difficult to block one-on-one in the NFL. So this season, Robert Quinn leads the league in that metric. an overall sack score, which is kind of a cumulative of all sacks and force fumbles. You know, he has three force fumbles this year.

But man, like when you watch Robert Quinn, I think he probably has the best bend in the NFL. And to be, you know, 32 years old or whatever he is, have the best bend, one of the best getoffs. He can also, once he, you know, stresses you outside, he can cross your face and win inside. But he can seriously, like Chris Long told me when I interviewed him for an article, what I did on Robert Quinn. He can run on the side of his ankle. It's wild. The balance and the flexibility is absolutely wild.

Nobody, running the hoop is when you have to bend the corner like that. Nobody runs the hoop like Robert Quinn does. It's always been true. And for it to happen a decade into his career like this, that's why it's been so fun to watch. Watching a reclaim is a great word. Watching him kind of reclaim this version of himself this year has been really fun. I mean, just as somebody who watches every,

single Bears game has seen every single one of those sacks. He's earned those sacks. And you look at it, his pressure numbers are not comparable to some of the other best ad rushers in the league, right? But if you look at it on a per play basis, he's 11th in PFF's past rush productivity metric, which is they try to do it on a per snap level. So on a per snap level, he's still creating a lot of disruption. And like you mentioned, his 18 sacks have been of the highest quality of any player in the NFL this year. So that's why I have him there. I had Trey Hendrickson and a couple other guys like one step down just by how often they affect the game. But I think if you just watch the way that Robert Quinn has played the position this year and some of the things he can do that no one else can do, that's why he stands out to me.

Even when you watch him play against the Niners, they were chipping him when he was on Trent Williams' side against the Niners. That's how much respect that they were giving him. He didn't have a great game that day, but he drew a holding penalty. Like, Trent Williams had to work in that game against Robert Quinn. So he has done that week in and week out this year. And I just wanted to recognize that because I think he's had a really impressive season. Yeah, I'm glad you're with me on that one because he, yeah, he's definitely deserving of some recognition. Any other guys that you had that were close to you on those eddress or spots?

Because there's a lot of options. Not really. I mean, those were the guys for me. I've kind of struggled what to do with Micah Parsons, you know. Oh, I cheated. I put him at linebacker. Yeah. We're willing to spoil that.

That's why I didn't have him there as well. I thought that would probably be the best spot for him. But, I mean, there's other guys that have had, like, surprisingly really good years. Like you mentioned, Hendrickson is a good one. I mean, Joey Bosa still, you know, is one of the best ed rushers in the league this year. Chandler Jones did some special stuff. I had fun watching Max Crosby this year. I thought that he had a really nice season.

Crosby was a good player this year. Yeah, I mean, there's, you know, Matt Judon is worth a mention. there's some guys who had really good years, but I think these four men really stood out, especially if you're going to leave Parsons at offball linebacker. I think these are the four. All right. First team, interior defensive linemen,

we don't even need to talk about it. Aaron Donald is the best player in the NFL. Yeah. The fact that once again, I mean, again, if you look at it, he's second in the league and pressures. He's a defensive tackle. It's absolutely crazy how he does this every single year. Now he's into his 30s.

Like as long as Aaron Donald is healthy, he is the best interior defensive player in the league and probably the defensive player of the year. He will not win it this year most likely because people are bored, but he probably deserves to win it again. So we don't need to spend a lot of time on that. Who's your other first team guy? I just wanted to add with Donald. He's leading the NFL in snaps as well for defensive linemen. So he's played over 900 snaps, 88% of his team snaps, which is 3% higher than next guy. So, yeah, I mean, he's, you know, it's just incredible.

But my next guy is Chris Jones. I think Chris Jones is the second best defensive tackle in football. You know, especially, you know, we saw the distinction in their defense when he moved back inside full time, you know, towards the middle of the year. So it really just kind of revolutionized a defense along with adding Melbourne Ingram as well. That really helped, you know, Frank Clark getting healthy as well. but when you miss, you know, the whole Chris Jones of wide nine technique, I think it was just a case of getting a little too cute. Totally. I mean, he still had some really nice rushes from the wide nine spot early in the year, but down to down, he's not affecting the quarterback and moving the, you know, the pocket around as much as he could do on the interior.

And he's just such a problem inside for guards because he's so athletic and he's so good with his hands. you know if if a guy's timing or placement with their hands is a little bit off at guard you're getting swiped by Chris Jones and he's going to run right by you cross your face he can you know he could fly I mean at his size he's very fast and athletic to me he's he's the number two guy I mean if it wasn't Aaron Donald's league it'd be Chris Jones league you know I mean he just he gets kind of overshadowed a little bit but yeah to me he's he's the other first team all pro I mean, he's leading the league in high quality sacks per snap over Aaron Donald this year, you know, playing a little bit less snaps, of course.

But, you know, he's he's impacting the quarterback at a very high level, man. I mean, he's the guy after Donald to me. So he has 64 pressures this year, according to PFF's count, which is tied for eighth in the NFL. He's only had 379 pass rush snaps. That's like 50 to 100 fewer than all of the guys ahead of him. him on the list. On a per snap basis, he's been one of the most impactful post rushes in the league independent of position. There are guys who I really like to watch. We'll get to a couple of them in a second that I just feel like are incredibly solid, like foundational pieces for

what you'd want your defense to be. In terms of game wrecking potential, Aaron Donald and Chris Jones are in their own universe at this position. The fact that he's only played 13 games and I didn't even hesitate to put him in here next to Aaron Donald, that's all you need to know. On a her snap basis, no one is more capable of destroying a game plan in the league at that position than Chris Jones. In a post-Aren Donald world, like we have to understand that. But those two guys, to me, are in their own tier when you think about how afraid you should be as an offense play in and play out.

Yeah. Yeah, that's well said. And just one play this year, one game, the Dallas game this season. I mean, you know, he had, what, four sacks that game. Three of them were high quality. he beat Zach Martin clean for a sack on third and seven, ended the drive with like a power pop move, which is kind of an Aaron Donald thing,

where you fake like you're going power. And then he club swimmed and just beat Zach Martin clean. I mean, maybe one of the only times I've ever seen it. So he's doing it against elite competition as well. He's not just accumulating stuff, you know, against bad players. I mean, he can beat the best of the best and obviously dominate everybody else.

So, yeah, I mean, I think you said it well. He's the next guy after Donald. There's a lot of options for the second team. I think you could throw four or five guys on here. I had KM. Hayward on my second team just because of how steady he is. I mean, you talk about snaps played. He's played right up there with Aaron Donald just in terms of how often he's been on the field this year. And his contributions just how steady of a pass rusher he is and how consistently he affects the game in that way, but also as a run blocker.

that's what, or as a run defender. That's why I had him on here over a guy like Javon Hargrave. Hargrave has been phenomenal as a past rusher this year. The splash plays are really, really fun to watch. But I just think that how consistently and how many different ways Cam Hayward affects the game, even if it's not as splashy as an exciting, that's why he's on there for me. That's a good one. I mean, I have Cam Hayward as one of mine as well for very similar reasons.

My other guy is Jonathan Allen. Same. So, yeah, those are my two guys. You know, I think Jonathan Allen is, you know, they're kind of similar, I guess, him and Hayward. They're both very good against the run. They're two of the, I think they probably have the two best bull rushes in the NFL. They just absolutely collapsed the pocket on guys. You know, Allen, I think, moves around maybe a little bit more than Hayward or has over the last couple years.

Hayward's, you know, more so just playing, you know, three techniques. two-eye. He'll play over the center a little bit, but, you know, they're just very similar, I think. They win with power. They're stout. You're not moving them. They're relentless. They're consistent. I like some of Allen's moves more. I just feel like he's got diverse. Yeah, there's more diversity to the way that he wins, in my opinion, than Hayward. Like, the little hump that he has, even though like the little cross chop that he uses every once in a while, like for an interior rusher, I feel like his bag is a little bit deeper than Cam Hayward's is. But when you can win with power the way that Cam Hayward can. That's okay. There's no reason to mix it up that much

when you can do what he can do. Yeah, I think Allen's the third best, probably, you know, interior pass rushing presence in the league, you know, him or Buckner, you know, is way up there as well. Buckner, obviously the thing with Buckner is like he, he gets so much attention. There's nobody really to take off much attention from him on the Colts D line, you know, whereas, you know, Allen's playing next to pain with sweat or, you know, young when he was there. Hayward has Watt. you know, Jones has Clark and Grimmie. So, you know, I think Buckner, Allen, Jones, and Donald were like the four premier interior rushers.

But nonetheless, yeah, I mean, he's just a power-oriented guy with some really good hand usage as well. But, yeah, those, the defensive tackles was fairly easy to me. And plus, it all aligns with, like, the true sack rate stuff I'm doing as well. Like my top four right now, top five is in a sack score is Donald, Jones, Hardgrave, Allen Hayward. And it's like Hargrave would be a next. Hargrave and Buckner were probably the two closest to me after the guys we just named.

And then Simmons is also a consideration. But I think he might be another year or so away from being in this category. He was the one guy I wanted to mention. I think that Kenny Clark has also had a really nice season. But I do think that both of those guys are a step down from the guys that we mentioned. I think if you were tearing it to me, it would be pretty defined. But I definitely wanted to mention both of those guys' names before we got out of here. Yeah.

All right, buddy, always so much fun to do with you. Please go check out Brandon's work at the Trench Warfare Substack. I cannot recommend it enough. We'll talk to you soon. Thanks, Robert. All right, it's time now to welcome a friend of the show, someone whose opinion on defensive backs I trust implicitly. One of the few people on earth I think I could trust to have watched all of these guys

and to have some really well-formatted opinions on them. ESPN's Matt Bowen, former NFL defensive back, Matt Bowen. Matt, how you doing, man? I'm doing great, Robert. Thanks for having me on. Thank you very much. It's always so good to chat with you. When I was thinking about people I wanted to talk about this with, your name was the first one that came to mind. So I'm thrilled to dig into this with you. We're going to do the linebackers and the D.Bs.

Why don't we move, this is going to be a nice natural transition from the defensive line. Why don't we do linebackers first? So who are your first team off ball linebackers for your all pro team? I think you have to start with Michael Parsons, right? I think we have to, Robert. Look, you can look at Michael Parsons in different ways. You can see them as an edge rusher. You can see them as an off-the-ball linebacker, what I like to call a stack linebacker.

But this is the first thing I'll say. Before we get into any players, there's a lot of guys, if you're grading players, Robert, that can grade out very highly because they are fundamentally sound. They play well within the scheme. I call those alignment and assignment guys. Okay. And I was one of those guys. That doesn't mean you're a pro bowler, okay?

When I look at pro bowlers, you have to make impact players, especially in the defensive saddleball. I want to make impact plays, be disruptive. Game changing plays dictate the outcome of the game or the tempo of the game based on the down and distance or the game situation you're in. So that's why I looked at Michael Parsons first. One, because what if you can do is a pass record, we understand what he can do off the edge. But also, you look at Dan Quinn, and we'll get into this when we talk about defensive backs.

Dan Quinn has completely changed his defensive process. profile. He's the coordinator for the Dallas Cowbell. You think of Dan Quinn in the past, Robert, what do we think? Cover three, right? Seattle County. High school. Yeah. And a lot of times high school cover three. Drop to a spot. Get your eyes in the quarterback, with great zone discipline and drive downhill on the ball with speed. What they've done now in Dallas, much more man-heavy, much more split safety covers, a lot of late movement in disguise. And that's where Micah Parsons comes in as a passers or from the second level. You will see them scheme stunts for him or scheme pressures. When he's that off the ball lineback, whether it's A or B gap pressure, using twists and stunts or

scheming their fronts, Robert, what I mean by scheming of your fronts, everyone knows what a four down front is, right? You got four guys in the line of scrimmage. A lot of times they'll walk Michael Parsons up, too. So now it's a five-man surface. What they're doing there, it's just getting the matchup they want. You can go back to the game against the Sunday night game against Washington. He had a sack when they just scheme the one-on-one for them. We want you to rush against Eric flowers and we want you to beat. That's what we're going to do with this front. We're going to get you the exact one-on-one we want in Parsons made that play. But also what you see with him at a second level, he's very savvy versus the wrong game. I know it's kind of a generic term, but it's the

best term I can come up with because he can slip blocks, he can go back door, he can cut off the ball in the perimeter, great second level range. And the thing about that really jumps to me, we're talking about just as an off-the-ball linebacker, how fluid he is in coverage, the ability to drop and match a man covers the ability to drop and play in space with elite closing speed to cut off the football. I think that you're, you could do him as a edge rusher or an offball linebacker, right? Just because of the alignments and just these splits and snaps that he's had. I'm comfortable using him as an off ball linebacker because of how much pass rush damage he's had coming from those alignments from depth like you mentioned.

They scheme him up to do that. And it's honestly one of the best things that they do. I mean, I think that's the benefit. There are people earlier in the season who were saying, why wouldn't you just line them up as an edge rusher all the time because it's a more high value position. The fact that you can bring him from depth and allow him to play with the other two guys that you have add a little bit of uncertainty to the way that you're going to bring guys. Just allow him to dictate matchups.

When he's coming from depth against guards, there's no very, very few guys in the league who are going to be at an advantage against him in those scenarios. And I think that's what's so special about him is that he has this otherworldly physical profile. And the fact that he can affect the game all of these different ways. Does he have some work to do just in terms of spatial awareness and zone coverage? 100%. All young offball linebackers do, right? It's one of the hardest positions to play well earlier in your career.

And that's why I think the ways that they've used to him where it's like, you just need to chase this guy down the sideline. I know that's a big ask of you, but you can do that. Think about some of the PBIUs he's had in high profile moments. I mean, the one he had against the Saints down the left sideline on that play. You talk about the closing speed. I mean, he's done that a couple different times this year. And you combine that, which is how dominant he is, moving toward the line of scrimmage, moving downhill as both the run defender and as a pass rusher.

There's really no one in the league like him. Like, it's not overstating it. There is no player in the NFL, even in recent years, that shares the traits that he brings to the game. And the fact that he's been arguably on a snap to snap basis, the most impactful pass rusher in the entire NFL on top of all these other things that he's doing. I mean, we have not seen a guy like this in a long, long time. We have. And you bring up a great point here.

I wrote down a number. And I was looking at numbers today. Right now, based on the numbers I'm looking at, Micah Parsons, going to your point, also leads the NFL and pass rush win rate right now at 29.2%. That's a higher number than Aaron Donald and Miles Garrett. Okay, so if you don't want to look at the take, you just want to look at the numbers. The numbers support our argument here, too, Robert, and that's what we're getting to. You bring up a great point about him being an off-the-ball guy in terms of scheme,

especially now what Dallas hits. I know Dallas didn't play their best game on Sunday. Everyone understands that. We're talking about an entire football season here. With DeMarcus Lawrence back and Regney Gregory back, now it gives you even more opportunity to scheme it. You know, do you want him to be an eddress for times? Of course you do. And there was moments in that game on Sunday where you have band rest dropping as an inside middle,

whole defender in cover two, Micah Parsons, rushing off the edge. Well, I think it gives Dan Quinn is a lot of versatility, really for a defense that has playmakers at all three levels. And that's what Dallas has been this year. Are they a dominant shutdown defense? No, but they are so disruptive and they can take the football away from you. That's why they're going to be a playoff team. I also think that even if we're just, I know this is about this year.

But when I look at some of the best defenses around the league, and this is something that I've really come to appreciate over time is that when you get into, you get into, January, February, you need matchup destroying players. You need to be able to tailor game plans specifically to shut down really, really good offenses. And he is going to be a player over the next however many years that you can deploy in any way you want depending on what you need to slow down on the other team. And it's just really hard to overstate how valuable a guy like that is.

100% because that's what football is. You find the opposing offense, you find their weaknesses. And when you're talking about matchup weaknesses, who's the player we can exploit? And who is the player? Whether you're talking to past game, run game, path protection. Who is the player we can exploit? And let's go do that. Let's do that consistently until they change.

Either they take that player out of the football game, or they completely change their scheme and their game plan of what they're doing. And that's what Parsons gives them. There's no question about that. You see it consistently. And how many times are you watching a Dallas Cowboys football game, whether it's on tape or on TV. And they make these impact plays.

They make these game-changing plays. And a lot of times, it's Michael Parsons behind. All right. Who's your other first team guy? It's got to be Darius Leonard, right? He has to be Darius Leonard as well. Because of we're, again, we're not talking about a line and assignment guys. We're talking about game changes here, right?

Darius Leonard is a game. Splash guys. Yeah. And a lot of splash plays. That's a great point. I like to use that term because those guys that have splash plays. They're guys that have consistent splash plays. That's Darius Leonard.

This is what he has this year. Tide for the NFL league was seven force funnels, four receptions, nine passes broken up. Okay. And that's not counting what he does in the run game. I think he's an excellent run to the winner. I think this has been his best year against the run. I feel like the physicality and just the way he's played in the box this year,

he's always had that range and his frame is just crazy with the arms. But I think what he has done in close and closed spaces this year with his physicality has been the best he's done all his entire career. in that area. Yeah, this is what I wrote for my notes. I put excellent run defender. Can cut off the ball on the perimeter with speed and short area burst that can also be downhill and violent on contact to take on ISO or lead plays. So you can do both for you. And that's what's great about the defense. And here's the thing about the Indianapolis defense. You know, I do the matchup show for ESPN. And for the last couple of years, every time we have a Colts

piece coming up, a team going against the Colts. We're starting to look for cover two plays. right let's find plays the beat cover two since the cold side they've shifted a lot this year they're much more man heavy at time they're bringing more pressure especially on third downs you go back to the game when they beat the cardinals the other night was a lot it was christmas night yeah christmas night against the cardinal every third down was almost man and man pressure they went after people they are much more aggressive on that defense that they have to be now with that pass rush they know it yeah the 100 but you're seeing lennon now i'm positioned to make more of those splash players one of my favorite plays from this year. I know

it's against a working quarterback, but the Mac Jones intercepted, the night game we all watched down in the low red zone, where you see just how fluid he is as an athlete, how flexible he is in the hips, because he's dropping as his own defender. He's reading the eyes of Mac Jones, who opens to the backside ex-receiver

in his own defense. When Mac Jones moves his eyes to try to hit that crosser, he immediately flips his hips, gains depth, and jumps right into the throwing line. That's a big time play. You can teach high school kids do that for hundred straight days in a row, and they won't be able to make a play at that level like Darius Leonard did.

So I think there's no question. We're talking about impact players disruptors at the stack lineback position for all pro team. It's got to be Michael Parsons and Darius London. Yep. Those are my two guys. First team, no questions asked. Second team, I think it's a little bit murkier.

Who are your guys there? I wrote down five. Okay. I think there's a lot of really good players. What about Devonre Campbell from Greenback? He's on my list. I think he truly deserves it. I think the game he had against Minnesota last week, both as a run defender and the space he can cover as a past defender.

I mean, his range, this is the year where you look at him. I remember when him and Dion Jones came into the league at the same time. It came to the league the same season. And, you know, Dion Jones was incredible speed and just athleticism and burst at that position. But you look at Campbell and his traits are really interesting. He's got that crazy length, but he also moves really well. And this just feels like this is the season where he has put all of that together. And seeing that has been really fun to watch.

It has. And how long has Green Bay desperately needed someone like that to have impact traits at the second level? And it's coming off the street, a guy just who was an afterthought, which is amazing. Well, look at what they did in the secondary this year. I know it's a different discussion, but Rosal Douglas was on a practice squad. right and they picked him up through now he makes all these plays you know uh but i really like davondry camo you you brought up a great point in that game against the vikings go one thing that really stood out when watching this tape and if you look at used the term deployed earlier i think

that's a key term we're talking defensive football how people are deployed how their own coaches view their traits and matchable ability when they played that the game against Arizona when obviously green bay did not have a lot of their offensive starters and that was the narrative coming out of the game with Aaron Roder, which I agree with. But you look at the defensive side of the ball, what they did to Kyle and Murray. And in key situations, if Andre Campbell played as a spy against Tyler Murray, okay? So if you're going to be, if your coach is going to view as someone who can play in a short area, have that short area of speed to act as a, you know, a spy, quote unquote spy against Kyle and

Murray, that means they really believe in your tricks. They believe in your eye discipline, your ability to create angles to the football, and your ability to close with speed. And you see that consistently on his tape. There's no question about that. But that one game sticks out to me because I'm sitting there thinking, okay, if the Green Bay coaching staff in a high level football game and a game where they need to make plays in defense,

and need to create field position for an offense that's deficient because of the injuries because of COVID. And they put Cambo in that situation. That was it for me. He had a few plays in that game. There was a TFL that he had on a jet sweep that I remember. I mean, he was just all over the place in that game. And I think that's been consistent.

it. He's been able to do that all season. And I think that, again, like you mentioned, they have really lacked a player like that in the middle of their defense, which is the package of traits that he brings. And again, watching him kind of, I don't know, it all kind of aligned for him in this way this season. He's turned into a really interesting player. All right, who are your other five guys here? Okay. Well, Fred Warner is obviously in this discussion. Fred Warner will be in this discussion. Bobby Wagner will always be in this discussion. I think Roquant Smith is in the discussion. Okay, I really believe that about Roquan because he is disruptive,

what he can do at the second level, what he can do in the past game, what he can do at the blitzer. But I still think if we're going to name a second team guy after Devonra came, I still think it's to Mario Davis in the North sense. I think so too. You're talking about, I use the term, you know, we talk about smart football players.

I use the term football intelligence or football IQ. I think with the Mario Davis, that is off the charts. And you would expect, you know, a veteran player at this stage of his career to be a smart football player. I think he takes it to another level. I think that allows him to make plays. I think that allows him to see things pre-snap and read it out, post-snap quickly in that second-level position, but also the defense he plays.

And we don't talk about the same defense enough. Understandably, the entire focus has been on the quarterback position this year, you know, trying to replace Drew Brees, you know, the injury to James, tasting me, you know, we understand the discussion, the narrative about that football team. But you look at what this team can do defensively, the way they skis. team their fronts, the speed they have the second level, the intelligence, the physicality they have the second level, tomorrow Davis. And then that secondary, I think, is one of the best secondaries in the NFL. Dennis Allen has done a great job with his defense. I think they're one of the

toughest defenses to prepare for. And with tomorrow Davis, he will drop the hammer in the run game. He can match and carry versus crosses, overrouts, and scenes, and impact the ball location when the quarterback's throwing a football. And I think he's a very highly disruptive player who who kind of, you know, keeps that defense together because what he can do within the ski. I think that's exactly why I have him as my second team guy. It feels like he is what he's the cohesion point on that defense. Like he's what allows it to stay together. And I think for a few different reasons.

One is just how many different ways he affects the game. And I think he's an underrated pass rusher when they allow him to do that. And there's that set that they use on third downs where they'll have three defensive linemen in the game and then they have both linebackers walked up. And one of the reasons they're allowed to do that with such efficiency is because of how smart DeMario Davis is and the awareness that he plays with. He's always able to get back into a sound position no matter what they ask him to do out of that alignment on third down. Or if they want him to blitz, he can do that too. And the amount of man coverage this team plays and the amount of man coverage they're comfortable playing, I think has a lot to do with their faith in him covering whoever they need him to.

And I just think that well-rounded aspect of his game where he does everything well and his ability to do everything well dictates and informs a lot of what they do on defense, I think that's just rare at that position. I agree with you. And the front you're talking about, I call it a tilted front. You know, other coaches, other defenses have their own terminology. I call it a tilted front. You bring them a great point because they can scheme as a past register,

either getting a matchup versus a guard, getting a match of a guard, getting a matchup versus a back or as a twist looper off their interior stunts. But the point you brought up, I think is excellent, his ability to bail out of that look, get to depth, play with his eyes, either maintain his own area of the field or man match off that tilted front is very special. And it takes a smart player, but also takes someone who has the traits to be able to play in space and be able to understand how to cover. You know, understand how to cover at the lineback position, understand how to, you know,

snug up to the hip of a tight end or snug up to the hip of the back. Understand where leverage points are. Understand where your help is. Understand where you're rob or safety as we see so often, Dennis Allen's defense. They show too high. They're rotating post-snap. You get a safety. A lot of time, PJ Williams dropping down with Marcus Williams over the top.

They do a lot of great things defensively. And going back to your point, he's kind of the glue of that defense. When you watch them, they ask in that exact set that you're talking about in third down, it's him and Juan Alexander a lot of the time. And the movements that they can both do are similar. And then you think about the fact that DeMario Davis weighs 250. And quite Alexander weighs like 220. That's the craziest part about it is that he's able to do all of this stuff as a true like 250 pound thumping three-dollar linebacker of which we just do not see a lot of anymore.

And again, he's got that old school. He's got that old school stack linebacker friend like when I play, you know, early 2000s. late 90s. So what every linebacker looked like, right? But those guys weren't on the field on third downs. A lot of them weren't back then. You know, so that's, again, goes to your point because he has disruptive ability as in base personnel and in subpersonnel.

And they play a lot of dime in the rules, too. So he is a long back lineback on the field in those situations as well. It's really special all the things he can do. All right. Let's get to corners. Fun year for cornerbacks. I think there's a lot to talk about who are your, let's just go one by one. Who's your first, first team corner?

I still think it's Jalen Ramsey's number one. I do. And this is why. I think Jalen Ramsey is still the prototype of the position. Okay, and what I mean by the prototype of the position? What traits do you're looking for? You're looking for light, ball skills, short area and recovery speed. You know, physical coverage traits, the ability to match up and be physical at the line

of scrimmage, mirror, and reroute it to snap. The ability to set an edge and cut out the ball in the run game. That's what makes them one of the most complete corners in the game. And obviously, I think he has the ability to be that matchup corner. We don't see it as much this year. And I'll get to that, Robert. But if you're going to match up to DeAndre Hopkins in third and two to six, we're inside the low red zone of the field,

he's still that dominant man covered defendant. Now, different defense this year in Los Angeles. Obviously, we know Brandon Staley moved over to the Chargers with what they have done. They're more of a zone heavy defense this year. And this is leading in. This is a number leading in to. week 16. I wrote this piece for yes, Pan, a couple weeks ago. I do whatever year. I call my shutdown index. And I look at the best defensive backs in every category. I had Rams listed as

the most complete corner. He had 526 snaps inside. As you know, some people call it the star. Some people call it the nickel. Some people just call it the slot corner. He's playing inside more this year. And you would do that in the zone and heavy defense. You want to be strong up the middle of your defense. You want your best players around the football. You want your best players that can cut off the ball in the run game, impact the box, also matching carry versus, you know, a slot receiver. He can do all that. But ultimately, he still is the prototype corner in terms of man coverage traits, ball skills, physicality at the position. I, in my first team, I did two outside guys and one slock guy. I did that for my first and second team. I cheated him and put him as my

slot guy on the first team. You can. Robert, you can this year. Yep, this year you can feel good about that. Right, because the snap count tells us, and the tape tells us, and that defense, he's playing much more inside. You know, and some people, I mean, that's a discussion for another day. Some people will say, well, why do you have maybe the best man corner of the league, going back to those traits we just talked about the prototype of the position, playing inside? Well, they see it as beneficial to their defense, okay? And every defense is different, but they see it as beneficial to the defense because they're putting a ball disruptor closer to the line of scrimmage closer to the run box,

closer to, you know, reduce formations. We can go on and on why he's in there. But I do agree with your point. If you wanted and name him in the slot quarter, you could this year. What he's done against the run this year, I think is just another point that kind of puts him in this conversation. But you can correct me if I'm wrong about this. Last year, one of the reasons that it was so useful to have him outside

is that even though they were running a ton of those two high shells more than anybody in the league, they played a ton of cover three last year. they would roll down into cover three and they would keep him locked on the backside of cover three. So if you're going to play that much three, even as a zone heavy team, you're essentially asking him to play man. They're not playing nearly as much three out of those alignments this year. So if you're going to play quarters, it just doesn't seem as valuable to have him as that backside lock defender as it would have with the way they were playing last year. It's an interesting point. And to explain your point, and I know exactly what you're talking about, I call it three lock or four.

lock. Again, there's different names for it. But what you're basically doing there is you're playing zone coverage and your front side corner will be in a zone technique. You're there, a pedal, he'll bail, and get to the outside one-third of the defense. But your backside corner, we saw it a lot last year, and those matches against Seattle versus D.K. Metcalfe. Yep. When Jalen and Ramsey would match up, when D.K. was the boundary X. And now you're playing, you're playing zone coverage with that locked corner, which was Jalen, would be playing with man technique. Press open to the receiver. that is 100% man technique. And I agree with you.

If you're going to be more of a quarters-based defense, then maybe you are putting him inside because you want him to be in more situations where it can be disrupted. And going back to your point of run game, but you don't say this about every corner. We understand that there's a lot of corners. Let's put this way, Robert.

What you want is a secondary choice. You want your corners to be willing and run support. Okay, willing means they're willing to tackle. Okay, doesn't mean they're great tacklers, doesn't mean they're ultra-physical at the point of attack. doesn't mean they strike with violence. But what Jalen Ramsey, he does that as a run-defense. I'm telling me he does.

He is savvy when he gets pulling guards on him. He knows how to dip and get under pulling guards. He knows how to cut off the ball. He can play as a cutback defender two versus runaway. Very good run support. And again, that's why I listed him as the most complete corner because he gives you everything at that position. The fact that they're willing to put him on the edge sometimes as a corner is

that's all you need to know about him. Right. That just speaks so much to their confidence in his ability in that area of the game. All right. Let's get to your outside, guys. Who's your first outside corner? You have to say Trayvon Dix.

You have to. And I understand there's a lot of discussion about Trayvon Diggs, especially if you look on Twitter from day to day. There's a lot of discussion. Especially this week. It's been ongoing. Oh, my gosh. I'll tell you this.

Trayvon Diggs has 11 interceptions this year. He has 21 pass breakers. Let's just put this in a conflict. Like I said, I played seven years in the league. I wasn't very good. But I played seven years. I had four interceptions in seven years. This guy's got 11 in one season.

Okay. Look, that doesn't happen by accident. That's my point. And I said this on Twitter was when they're playing the Sunday night game against Washington and people just went crazy. Little points will get to. But when you are around the football that much, it does not happen by accident.

One, you put yourself in position to make those plays. You are smart and nuanced football player. Number two, you're willing to take a little risk. Okay. And that's what he is. He's aggressive ball hawk corner. I play with guys like that at the University of Iowa. I obviously play with a lot of them in the national football league. Now their eyes are greedy. Okay, their eyes are greedy. That's why they make plays. That's why they go outside of structure at times. You're a position coach and you're coaching the Trayvon Diggs. You allow them. You do. You allow him to go outside of structure at times. Just like you wanted your coach from Patrick Mahomes and their offensive side of the ball. Because the game changing ability is so great. Okay. The ability to

to find the football, not only find the football, but to finish in the ball and make those 11 play is great at as high level as it gets. That's why I see him as an all pro. Now, does Trayvon Diggs give up some plays? Yes, he does. We saw it this past Sunday versus A.J. Green. It's a basic double move. You know, double move we see on Friday nights here in Chicago high school football, right? It's just a double move.

But Trayvon Diggs is so willing to jump those plays and to make plays that at times he will give up some place. There's no question. At times, his eyes will drift into the backfield you are. I understand all that. But 11 interceptions, 21 pass breakups. Going back to what we talk about at the top of this. I don't want alignment and assignment guys on the all pro list. That's not what I'm looking for here.

I'm not looking for guys that grade out well because they play quarters well. I'm looking for guys that make game changing plays and completely control the tempo at times from my defensive football team. And that of Trayvonde. He's also on my list. I think for the exact reasons that you mentioned. And if you look at it, I mean, this is still. I want to say the number one team in past defense by DVOA and have been up there in EPA per play against as well this year's. So I think that you take the good and the bad, right?

And the amount of splash plays that he's been able to make, I think overall within the structure of their defense, the tradeoff has been more than worth it. And I think that that's what you have to consider there. And I think that that's exactly right. You want those guys who are going to make those game swinging plays. And he's given up a ton of yards this year. But there's a reason for that a lot of the time. It's because he's been ultra aggressive in a lot of those moments.

So he's on mine as well. And my third guy was AJ Terrell. I just think that he is really come on this season. And that team is not great and they've got a long way to go. But he is a building block for the Falcons because you can just put him out there. And I think you mentioned this in your shutdown index. I think it's a really good point. They've played a ton of cover two this year.

But in depth he gets on a lot of those plays as what would typically be the flat defender in cover two, the plays he can make because of that, I just think that he is a weapon, even in a coverage that you would typically classify as a little bit more passive. And when you combine that with the man coverage ability that he has, I think he's going to be a really good player for a long time. No, I agree with you.

I would have trawling my list as well. And going back to your point about cover two, that's a good discussion. Because I do think people, when you talk about cover two, think about soft zone. There's nothing soft about cover two. If there is, you're not good at first of all.

Okay, it means you're not good. You mean you should run a different defense. Cover two, you want strong physical corners with length at the point of attack. That's what Terrell gives you. He's got that long frame, that long body to be disruptive and impact the release of number one. Okay, you want to get hands on an impact release because you're trying to protect your safety over the top. But to go to your point, where does everyone want to throw the ball versus cover two? The deep hole shot, right?

You can go back early in the season, the Tampa game. I can't remember what week it is right now. I think it was two players. I think it was week one or two. You made two plays on Tom Brady. They really stuck out to me when I was watching tape and putting that piece together for ESPN. His ability to reroute number one and then open and sink and drop into that throwing limb, which is about 25 yards on the field and make a play on that football.

Twice, you know, in the strike zone area of the field, which I call it 20 to 35 year line. That's when all offenses, you know, they take their shots at the end zone from that field position. And he made two of those plays. They were really high level. going to the man coverage trades. It's not easy to run quick game against Trill. It is not. He's going to be aggressive.

He's going to be competitive. He's going to be a little grabby like every man corner is. Put that out there now. Every man corner, whether it's talking about high school football and I see Catholic where I coach or the Atlanta Falcons, you're going to be a little grabbing. You're going to push the envelope. If I'm a position coach, I'm telling them to do it too until they call it until they stop us. But if they don't, let's challenge the heck out of these guys at the line of scrimmage.

That's what you get with Trell. he's got good short area speed, probably. You don't think about that all the time with a long quarter. Jalen Ramsey has it. Terrell has it. That, in my opinion, is so much more important than a 40-hand. So much more important. I don't care if you're a 4-5-5 guy.

If you have the short area closing speed, that's when you make plays in the football. That's when you close in the slant. That's when he close in the end breaker, the deep dig ball. That's when you make those plays. Because you get the short-ary speed and you got the length. You get your hand in there and knock the football away. I think he's an exceptional play.

Now, one play we didn't mention, we'll keep going here, Robert. But if you're going to put Jalen as your slot player, which is fine, I had Jalen as my outside player. Okay. So Jalen and Diggs was my first team. My trail, second team outside. So if we're talking about first team slot for me,

it's still Kenny Moore. He was my second team slot. Okay, that's fair. Kenny Moore, to me, if we're talking true slot player, is still the standard right now in the national football league. he's extremely, you know, you look at his ability to close in the football, his physicality, the ability to fit the run, to cut off the ball in the run game. He can pressure in the cold system, as we've seen, especially the last couple weeks and the change in that defense.

He can play a two-way go and man covered. And what I mean by two-way go, Robert, is it, look, when you're an outside corner, and look, nothing's easy in the NFL. I must say it's easy. When you're an outside corner, you have some help because you have a sideline next to you. That helps a lot. I mean, it really helps. You're an inside corner. You got nothing.

You got nothing, man. You are playing a two-way go. So you can at least inside or outside. And you have to get to that hip immediately or you're beat. And Kenny Moore is excellent. That's that short area speed. He's a very twitched-up mover. I think he's an easy mover.

I think he's ultra-competitive. And just really, for me, he checks all the boxes. There's so many things you have to do as a slot defender that don't necessarily apply to an outside corner all the time. And for me, it's Kenny Moore because he has the ball production. as well. I totally agree. That's why he's my second team guy. And if I didn't cheat and put Ramsey in my first team, it probably would have been in that discussion. You look at it, he leads the NFL in run stops, according to PFF, among all cornerbacks. His average depth of tackle is the second shortest of all qualified cornerbacks is 2.4 yards down the field while racking up 16 run stops.

So he's arguably the best run defending corner in the entire league, which isn't the most important thing. But when you're playing in the slot like he is, it is a part of it. of it. And he again, talk about splash plays. I feel like the Colts defense is so weird, right? Because they don't have superstar players at positions you would typically think you need superstar players. They don't have a superstar outside corner. They don't have a high level edge rusher. But they have these guys in Buckner, Leonard, and Kenny Moore who kind of embody the way they want to play defense. And I just think that the ways those guys kind of express their competitiveness, the ways they try to take the ball away.

It's just so unique when you look at the other ways defenses around the league are built. And I think those three guys, and I think Kenny Morris probably the least talked about of those three, are a huge reason why they're able to sustain defensive success without what we would typically call high impact positions. I agree. They're extremely well coached too. I think they're extremely well coach. And that goes to roster construction.

It depends on who you're talking to, right? When we go to the combine, it depends on who you're talking to. But a lot of defensive coaches still believe in strength of the middle of your defense. And that's where you start. And you build from the middle and you build out. And that's what the Colts have. Because if you're looking at Kenny,

Kenny Moore is a slot defender. He is an interior player for you. And their interior players, that's where they're stars off. So my, I had Diggs on my first team. I had Terrell on my first team. So my second team, one of my outside guys is J.C. Jackson. I agree with you. That's why I had as well.

You know, extremely high-level ball production this year. Leads the NFL 22-pass breakups, eight interceptions. I think he plays in the number one secondary. That was my top secondary when I wrote the shutdown index, you know, when you're talking about what they have in the outside, what they have in the slot, what they have in the post, what they have in their sub-packages when you're bringing Kyle Dugger, and especially when you have Adrian Phillips in there, too,

as your sub-pack is safe, your linebacker. One of the best defenses in terms of pre-and-post-snap communication, that's one of the reasons they win. We don't talk about that enough from the secondary perspective. I understand I open this up with the ball production. Again, going back to what we talked about, you have to have big time plays to be in an all protein. But J.C. Jackson is an excellent core.

And the ball production didn't happen overnight. This has been pretty consistent with it. Because, again, like Trayvon Diggs, around the ball for a reason. More disciplined and coverage, though, than Trayvon Diggs. I think it's fair to say that, right, Robert? I think he's a more disciplined coverage defender than Trayvon Dix. Absolutely. I think one of the things that really jumps out to me this year,

is how much they trust him to travel with number one receivers. I mean, what they have put on him this year within that defense, I think is, I mean, what more, what better compliment could you receive than the way that Bill Belichick has treated him this season with the way that he's been used? His contract is a different question. But the way he's used within that defense, I feel like is a really, really great sign of respect with how that staff use him. 100%. And it goes back to what's about Devonre Campbell. when you're footing positions where coach your values so much to be in one-on-one matches. Campbell's as a five versus Kyle Murray, pretty high-profile matcher.

With J.C. Jackson's versus opposing teams in one wide receiver. And they have to do that a lot. And that is very hard to do, especially for a defense. That has been a little bit more multiple the second half this season. You've seen some more two high shells, some more cover three. But at their core, if they have to win a play, Bill Belichick's going to play man-cover. It's a man-on-way, baby. That's what he is.

Okay. We talk about that matchup all the time. We look at the numbers. We're playing more cover three. And then we stop ourselves and say, man, it's Bill Belichick. It's a high profile game. When they need to make a play, it's a big man coverage. And J.C. Jackson's going to have to make that play for it.

And he's had tremendous on the ball production this year. So obviously he's skilled in coverage. He's fluid in terms of his hips. I think his feet and his hips are tied together. That's why he's so fluid. Again, going back to the trade. Here's the thing, Robert. And I catch myself doing this a lot.

when I wrote that piece. It was hard for me at times because there's only so many high-level traits. You focus on them from a defensive bat. And a lot of these guys check those box, right? Now, he's not as long as Jalen Ramsey's a trail. But in terms of just the short area closing speed, it pops, man, when you're watching the tape. My last guy, I was kind of surprised when I was doing this list. But as I was going through everyone and just thinking about who I've really appreciated watching this season,

who's been a really important piece of a defense that I feel like is overachieved. My other guy is Chiodobio Ouzier. I just feel like he's had some really good moments this year. I went back and made a couple of the plays he made against Justin Jefferson in that week one game, the game that he had against Devante Adams. I think that he's been really solid in the run. He's made a lot of really nice tackles in space that could have been huge plays. I just have really appreciated him this year.

And I think that he's been an excellent signing and a real cog in what they've been able to do defensively. Yeah, that's a great point. you bring up the tape against Devante out. If we looked at that, a match, obviously, to be putting those one-on-one situations against, I don't think it's a question anymore.

You know, the league's best wide receiver, maybe the best wide receiver we've seen in the last decade. So when you're putting those situations, it goes back to, again, our underlying point here, that how much coaching stats believe in you in your ability.

And I like Wuzia. I had him on, in my shutdown on next, I had him on under the radar talents because he's not discussed every day. We talk about the top corners in the league. He's not always a part of that discussion. Now, two players I would put in there above a Woosier,

I think one is Darius Slay. And Darius Slay is very interesting to me because of the growth and development of this Eagles defense. You go back weeks one through six, they're the most zone heavy defense in the national football league. They lined up in quarters on every snap route. So I did. I mean, it was like, this is the defense we played.

It's like, okay, we'd almost be like we had a couple OTA practices. is who we are. But again, they were trying to figure out who they were from a defensive identity. If you look at from week seven on, now they're one of the most man-heavy defenses in the NFL. So something switched there with that football team. It's so funny because they did the same thing offensively, right? I mean, they just completely changed their stripes, a third way into the season. And I think that that's partially a product of the way the Colts used to approach that stuff. I mean, obviously both of those guys came from that staff.

The Colts pretty openly kind of treat the first month. month of the season, especially with all the quarterback turnover they've had, as just an extended training camp where they're trying to figure things out and say, like, what are we really good at? And it's kind of fun to watch the Eagles do something very similar, if more pronounced this year, under Siriani. I agree. And with Darius Slay, Darius Slay is still one of the top cover corners in the NFL. I have no problem saying that.

No problem saying that. He can play press. He can play off. He's very smooth and controlled in his pedal. He plays like a veteran at the point of attack. He understands where routes are going to break. And I always said this, you know, a coach when I was playing back in Washington, Steve Jackson, who's now the safeties coach in Cincinnati, was our defensive back coach.

He's the first person that told me this. And I always stick with that using now as a high school coach. Every route outside of a quick game. So a quick game, Robert is obviously a slant or a hitch, you know, speed out, you know, all underneath stuff. Everything outside of that breaks between 12 and 15 yards, every one of them because that's how the timing works with the passing game. So obviously there's exceptions when I was a rookie in St. Louis, you know, Isaac Bruce and Tori Holt would run dig routes at 18. You know, that's a different

offense. That offense is a whole different animal, though. Yes, it is. It is. But most, you know, standard football routes break between 12 and 15 yards. That's your intermediate routes. That's your stems to your deep routes. So if you're a defensive back and he said 16, 17 yards and they're not breaking, you better turn and run because they're not stopping, right? Now they're going to run right past you. But Darry Slay, my point of all this, has a great feel for that. Great feel for where routes are going to break. Great feel for understanding leverage, understanding divider rules. It's a defensive back lined up.

Just a high level football player. The other one I would put in there is Marshawn Laddmore. And I've always liked Marshawn Ladam. I think Marshawn Landmore is someone you go to battle with every day. Again, if you're a man-heavy team, you brought it up earlier, like the Saints are, whether they're a single high or two high man. Marshawn Laddmore, and you can go on the tape, watch all the math. matchups he's had with Mike Evans over the year. I want that guy my second. I want guys like that who

are willing to challenge, willing to battle and willing to compete all day long. When I put him in basically a compromised spot, you're going to be outside the boundary X receiver. You're going to be by yourself. We're going to drop the safety down and pushing the trips. We are trusting you to be so low on coverage because I believe so highly in your ability, one to get hands on opposing wide receivers. I don't think they're challenging, but also to mirror him. He's a really good feat for a long For a big guy, his movement is amazing. It is. And if you want in another slot corner, it might be a name that a lot of people aren't thinking

this year. Going back to Philly, I think it's Avanti Maddox. I think Avanti Maddox is a really good player for them. I really believe that. I mean, he's twitched up, short area speed. I think he's tough and physical as a slot defender. I do think he'll attack the run. Now, he doesn't have a massive frame in terms of that, but he's just so competitive.

And I mentioned Avanti Maddox. of time, Robert, when I'm watching this, I start to think from a coaching perspective and guys who would want to coach, guys who would want my secondary. Navante Maddox is one of those guys. I just feel like him finding a home has been so important for him. Right. When you think about all the injuries they've had to endure over the last few years and he's been a victim of that because he's had to bounce around a lot.

And this year, him settling into that slot role and just that's what he is full time for them, I think has been a really good thing for him and for them because they've kind of, they found him. as a foundational piece. If you had asked them before the season, is Avanti Maddox going to be a guy you want to lock up and you think is going to be one of the pieces you build around for the next three or four years,

I'm not sure it would have been an emphatic yes. And now it really does feel like that. Great. You bring up a great point. And this is for every position, but we're focusing on BBs now. Opportunity and situation means everything in that league. It means everything.

I mean, we can talk about the rookie quarterback this year. There's a lot of discussion that's about opportune and situation. because you're not going to play your best football if you're not in the prime situation. You don't have the best coach you're on you. You don't have the best team. You don't have a coach that's putting your position that is not going to be detrimental to your ability to make plays in the football. I always bring this up.

I play with Greg Williams in Washington. What do I do for Greg? I played the run and I blitz. But it is Greg no, I could do anything else. Right? So Greg was going to put me in a position when I'm playing the deep half or the top of Randy Moss. or not on matching up to Antoine Randallel L. in the slot.

He's not going to do that stuff. And I was forever thankful for it because if he did, I would have been out of league much earlier. Right. So that is coaching, that is situation, that's playing in a scheme that fits your traits and a coach doing that for you. That is so, so important to development,

growth, and being able to survive and stay in that league. All right, let's get to safeties. Who are your first team's safeties? I think you start with Kevin Byrd. I think Kevin Byers back where he belongs. as the most complete safety in the NFL right now. I really believe that. Kevin Byard can drop the hammer on you as a running defender.

He can play in the box all day long if you ask you to. He can drop as a hook, curl, the defender. He can match up underneath the manned coach. You can carry a match versus verticals down the field. And the thing that sets them apart this year is I use the term multidimensional traits. That's kind of a draft term we use at the matchup show. But it really applies to safety play in today's NFL

because you have to be multiple. You have to have post range, split field range. You have to be able to move late. And that's one of the keys of Kevin Byer this year. When you watch that Tennessee secondary, and that Tennessee secondary is not one we talk about on a daily basis. But when you watch Kevin Byer, the things they're able to do, Robert, moving from single high to cover two,

moving from single high to two inverts with Kevin Byrd now is your robber safety. They can do that because of Byrd and his multi-dimensional trait. He's had on the ball production this year. I think he's had five picks already. Everyone remembers the Sunday. night game against Matthew Stafford when he rolled down late. Again, going back to that late movement, this guy's jumped right in the throwing lane underneath and the cover three interception, take it back for the house.

And then the other one that jumps out to me is the Colts one. The one in overtime against the Colts because that's, when you look at interceptions for safeties, you always have to kind of give it some context, right? Are these tips and overthrows or are these guys making plays? And that interception you mentioned against the Rams is a perfect example. That's a guy making a play and scoring a touchdown. And then against the Colts, I want to say that he was the post safety on that play, and they had a post runner. And he trusted Wentz's eyes so much that he was willing to break down on the crosser and pick that ball off.

That is a guy making a play that shouldn't be there. And I think that's why his production in the passing game is so impressive, because it's not just tipped balls and right place, right time sort of things. He is conjuring game swinging plays on his own this year. And when you combine that with a versatility, that's why he's on my first team as well. We go back to what we're talking about with Trayvon Degg. So at times you do have to play outside of structure, right?

If you just line up in the B-Path and you're on top of the numbers where your landmark is and you back pedal and keep everything in front of you, that's great. Not going to make many plays, though, are you? Okay, you have to be more aggressive. There's a quarter safety at the flat foot read. You see it from Kevin Byard all the time. And the ball snap, he doesn't move. He's reading it.

He's reading high hat, low hat. That's, you know, for a run pass read. The tackle stands straight up, but called a high hat. It's a pass set. If he fires out, it's a run block. You don't see them backpedaling out of it. You don't see high-level players doing that. You see them holding the ground, reading it out, and challenging every single thing you do.

Okay, and that's what you want in the secondary, especially at the safety position. And with those multi-dimensional traits, if I'm coaching Kevin Byard, it's endless. We can be married. Now we can be more multiple, Robert, from a coverage perspective. We don't have to be this split safety. We don't have to be this single high. We can do different things. We can jump into two-man.

We can jump into zero-man. We can bring zone pressure. I can do all those things because of Kevin Byard and what he does for my defense. And they really do not have a coverage flavor on that team. They've run a little bit of everything this year. And I think it's really benefited them. Their ability to kind of be this really murky, hard-to-read defense right before the snap, combined with a game-changing player in Byrd and solid players elsewhere.

You know, what Elijah Molden and Christian Fulton have been and how reliable they've been. Janoris Jenkins just kind of being somebody that you can trust in that other outside. spot in the way that a money hookers played this year i mean top to bottom it is one of the more reliable secondaries in the league this season and i think that how hard to define they are before the snap and the way that byard is playing are huge parts of that yeah and i go back to the tape from last one we can be honest here that defense has carried this football team perhaps they have that offense in tennessee is very limited we understand that that's a discussion for another day i go back to the tape this past weekend against tua and my end you know that you know

know what two is. Two is a short to intermediate throw. That's what he is. He wins with rhythm, timing, and ball plays. That offense in Miami is built around two his traits to throw. So what did Tennessee do? I've got a lot more man in this game. Why? Because he's going to challenge the heck out of it. I'm not going to let you throw slants and stick routes all day. You kidding. And R.P. And run a million RPO's. Right. No, they're not going to let you do that. And when they played quarters, Hooker made it play, I think it was Devonte Parker, backside, you know, backside glance route or slant, whatever you want to call it. He didn't even move with the snap. And once he took his hand up that football,

he was straight downhill to collision to Bonte Park. Very well coached. They understand the personnel they're playing against. I'm not going to take away what you do best. Very interesting team going into the playoffs because of that secondary we're just talking. Who's your other first team guy? It's Justin Simmons for me. And I know Justin Sims, I think, was left off the Pro Bowl team,

which was surprising. Now, that's a whole nother discussion in Pro Bowl. But I want to go there. Justin Simmons is for me. One, because of similar in terms of Kevin Byron, in terms of multi-dimensional traits, but also the scheme he plays in. And obviously, you know that scheme very well

as being a Chicago Bear fan with Vic Fangio and what they did in 2018 and how Eddie Jackson performed in that scheme in 2018 and where Eddie's gone to now without it. But Justin Simmons, when I watch him, probably the ideal fit, if you're talking about more split safety coverage in today's NFL, as a quarters or deep half defender,

he's got range from those two. positions. He's got post range. He's got ball tracking skills. There's no question he can finish in the football. He can run the alley as a quarter safety. He can rotate down the box and he can't match up. So you're talking about a lot of different traits that fit today's NFL, especially Vic Fangio's scheme and how well coached they are and how good that Denver defense has been this year. I know last week they didn't play well. I understand. Not everyone could be their best for 17 weeks in this league. It's very hard to do. But again, you're talking about a team that was competitive for the majority of the season, given their talent efficiency at the quarterback position, was because

of this Denver defense. There's no question it was because of McFandjo. And Justin Simmons, to me, is a top two player in this league at the safety position because he's consistently productive. He's got more range than people ever talk about. I understand why we don't talk about Justin Simmons' range. And he can finish in the football, a highly productive player that can play within scheme, go outside a scheme when he has to, and fits today's NFL in terms of the coverages,

wants to run. He was just off my list. My mother first team guy is Jordan Poir. I just feel like this year I wanted to recognize what he's done. I mean, just their production in past coverage this season and the versatility. A huge part of what they do defensively is the fact that those guys are virtually interchangeable.

And his ability to play around the ball, his ability to play in the post. I just think that he has really taken a step up this year. And it's been fun to watch. My second team guys, I had for similar reasons. I had Derwin James on there, even though he's missed some time. And the reason that I had him there is just because of how instrumental he is to their defense and how many different things he does.

The fact that he can play slot corner, the fact that he can be a pass rusher, he's been one of the most impactful pass rushers on a snap-to-snap basis in the entire league this year when you think about how many pressures he gets per how many rushing opportunities he gets. And the other guy that I had was Adrian Phillips from the Patriots. because I just think that when you look at everything they ask him to do, playing along their front, playing in the box, playing slot corner, playing free safety, very few guys are asked to do more different things than Derwin James and Adrian Phillips are, and that's why they made it for me.

I agree with both of those. I had those guys in my list. I had a bunch guys. I cheated on this a little bit, Robert, but that's okay. So I had Derwin James and Adrian Phillips on there for the exact reasons you just brought up. A key point you said about Derwin James, I think we need to discuss real quick. His ability to play is a slot corner. A lot of safety is in the end of the term, cover down.

What does that mean? Well, when you're covering down, a lot of times it's on a pressure, whether man or zone pressure. And you're rotating, you're showing a too high alignment. The slot corner goes and the safety spins down, right? You're covering down. And you can play off. You can use a flat foot read and read it out, anticipate a slant route or a quick out and drive downhill and make a tackle. And you win third down, right?

third and seven to ten it's when you call that stuff. But that's different than having slot coverage ability. Much different. Totally. Much different. I mean, it goes back to we're talking about with Kenny Moore, right? Play a two-way go match different body frames, too. That's what's so outstanding about Derwin James is he can play a Darren Waller

from the Los Angeles Rams or he can match up to a slot wide receipt or he can match up to a big slot or a flex tight end. There's so many different matchups he can match up to a guy out of the backfield. Okay, so he has really high-end coverage traits in a body frame that is really more suited to play outside line. Okay? And that's why he is so rare. So rare. I totally agree. So rare.

A couple other guys I had. I had Poir and Mikeahide together. I put Jordan Poirer slash Michael Hyde. I think of the best safety combination in the NFL, going back to what you talk about, extremely well, coach, but interchangeable. Both can play the post, both can play in the quarter, the half, and they can both roll down. as run defenders or guys that blitz and they have man matchup abilities. There's no question about. Excellent safety.

Come on the best in league. Buda Baker's in this list for me. Yeah, I should have mentioned him. I honestly feel stupid leaving him off for Adrian Phillips. But I just, I wanted to give Phillips a nod just because I don't feel like a lot. Enough people are talking about him.

But now I agree with him. I don't feel silly. I mean, I agree with Adrian Phillips too. Buda Baker to me. I said this earlier in this podcast. Guys who want to coach. For me, this is the elf and my God. I want a coach.

I want him my second. Look, when I show the high school kids I coach, I show them a lot of NFLT, and I send it to them all the time. I'll take, you know, the video with my phone and send him to look at this technique. A lot of times it's Buda Baker, and it's not about technique, okay? It's not about making a huge impact play, and we know he's very destructive. It's how he plays, how urgent he is. That term, when it applies to a defensive back, what it means by urgency is play speed, and how fast you play. how fast you read something and go get it.

Now, maybe you might not be right every time. That's okay. As a coach, I can live with that because it's going to translate to disruptive play opportunity. Whether he's coming front side or cutting off the ball from the backside, his ability to play with urgency and be disruptive and just create chaos at times. You can win with that, Robert. You can win with that.

I got to leave. I'll tell you what, man. When I watched him on tape, that's the first thing that comes to my mind is, And if I'm coaching NFL secondary, and this guy is a free agent, this is the first guy I want my list. I want him on my football because he's going to set the tempo. He's a tone setter for your secondary. And one thing we've talked about with all these players is they all have a physical element to them. They all have great play scheme.

They're all highly disruptive. They all make plays. And to me, every football game, and obviously I'm a little biased here, but the secondary should set the tempo and decide the outcome for every football game. you have to be physical, you have to break on the ball, you have to consistently challenge people. And when I have Buda Baker, I can do that all the time. What I think is so cool. I just think it's so cool about Buddha is that he was a box safety for his first

couple years in the league. His transition to being kind of that last line of defense for them. I mean, I was talking to Marcus Robinson, their defensive backs coach when I was down there, and he was just saying that we're allowed to do so many things because Buddha is just an eraser on the back. back end. And for him to have the ability he has to make those splash plays in the box and around the ball like he did against Dallas last week. And also that I want to say by on like December

first, this team had given up the second fewest plays of 20 plus yards in the NFL outside of Buffalo, a lot because of what he can do. I mean, that's just a really special collection of talent and ability and roles within the defense. And they honestly think that he's going to be even better. because he has not played in that role that often before he started doing it in this defense. So he's still fairly new within that type of defensive structure. So again, I wish I would have mentioned him, but he's definitely up there for me. You have a good point. You said this with Derwin James.

And Buda Baker is obviously different player, different body frame. But it can be deployed at all three levels of your defense. Okay. And those are special traits to have. And another thing is that play speed, that urgency, I can't coach that. Either you have or you don't. Okay, I can't say play fast.

Okay, that's great. Thanks, coach. You know, what does that mean? No, it's his eye discipline, his understanding of offensive personnel, his understanding of down and distance situations. He's a very smart. He's in alignment. Okay, he gets a jump on things for, again,

we said this with Trayvon Diggs. You don't make 11 picks in one season by accident. You don't make as many plays and put yourself in disruptive positions as multiple times as Budapaker does by accident. He understands how things work on a football field and allows you to play with this urgent play speed that it just jumps off the tape, Robert, every time you watch. You're trying to study someone else, trying to look at Chandler Jones and what they're doing, Jordan Hicks at the linebacker position. And here comes Buda Baker coming out of the screen, right? It just happens so consistently.

And one player I wanted to mention is I think he's earned it. I didn't have as much production this year. But I think any time you're talking about an all-protein, anytime you're talking about someone, who has special traits in the second. You have to mention Tyron Matthew. Okay, and I wouldn't put Tyron Matthew on my first or second team. I would not this year. But he still made plays for this football team this year.

And the reason I bring it up is back when we had ESPN the magazine. One of the first pieces I ever wrote at ESPN was called, it was like the rise of the monster back. And we built a monster back. And a monster back was kind of like your hybrid defender at the time. You know, we had different body parts. And we had guys like Luke Keechley in there. and but a lot of those body parts we're putting together like this big robot guy

were tyron matthew okay because tyron matthew is that monster back and i got this name because when i was in high school in glenbar west in 1994 my senior season we played wheat moronville south made this kid that was was dominant at strong safety so we called him the monster okay we had to find the monster pre-snap so we can run outside beer again right you know that's all where anyone ran the night. And I mean, threw the ball four times a game. But you had to identify where the monster was. And then the next year became the monster back.

And that name always stuck to me as someone who's just highly disruptive, has these hybrid traits and those multi-dimensional traits we talked about. What they do with Spaggs in Kansas City with Tyron Matthew, you know, that's much more of a defined defense that people talk about because they are covered too heavy at times. They play cover two differently. They play it out of their dime. They played cover two Rob.

a lot and that robber is Tyron Matthew. They can show pressure and drop as your middle hole defender and be impacted. Again, speaks to what they expect out of him and what they think he's capable of the fact that he is deployed in that particular way. All right. That is all we got. That was extremely fun. I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to do that.

Please tell people where they can listen to you, see you, hear you, all the things that you're doing. Okay. Well, I'll be writing on ESPN.com this week and putting out a piece on, you know, some of the matchups on the week 18 schedule, obviously looking at the teams that need to get in the playoffs and what they can do from an offensive defense perspective. That'll be on ESPN.com this week. Our matchup show is every week throughout the season and throughout the playoffs and into the Super Bowl. That's on ESPN and ESPN too early morning. And that's with Sal Palantone on Greg

Coast. It's a different show. It's a coach. You know, Robert, you know the show. It's coaches take. We analyze the game, looking at the take, trying to find schemes and trends and always looking forward to the next matchup. And then on Twitter, it's at Matt Bowen 41. Not a joke. Last year, when I was figuring out my cable situation,

we got DVR. And when I was thinking about whether or not to keep DVR in the year 2021, when it doesn't feel as necessary, the reason that I spend $10 a month on DVR is so I can DVR the matchup show. And I can watch it on Sundays. I watch it on Sundays before the game start.

That's how important it is to my, football diet. That's how important it is to my routine every single week. And that's how good I think that show is. So if you guys are up early, even if you're not, make a point to be because you should be watching the matchup show if you're not. Matt, thank you very, very much. It's always so great to chat with you. All right, Robert. Thank you. I really enjoyed it. All right, guys, that's all we got. I hope you enjoyed that. I certainly did. I love digging into that every single year. I know we got three hours of podcasts today. But I think it's worth it when you were having it. having these sorts of really exciting, really just kind of giddy conversations about the best players in the league

and celebrating what has been another really great NFL season. We'll be back tomorrow with Lindsay Jones and our Saints writer, Kat Terrell, doing our weekly team visit. Until then, please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. I sincerely appreciate that. Please subscribe to The Athletic.com slash football show. If you have not gotten a subscription yet, I don't know what you're doing. Playoffs are about to start. You should grab yours right.

Now, we'll be back tomorrow. Until then, appreciate you guys listening. Talk to you soon. This was the Athletic Football Show.