The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - 2021 NFL All-Pro Team: Offense

Episode Date: January 5, 2022

On a special two-part episode of The Athletic Football Show, Robert Mays is joined by several guests to select the 2021 NFL All-Pro team. They begin with the offense and Nate Tice stops by to break down the quarterbacks, running backs, receivers and tight ends. Then, Trench Warfare’s Brandon Thorn weighs in on the offensive line. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. The Athletic Football Show is presented by State Farm, because like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Get a quote today. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Today is Wednesday, January 5th. We got a lot happening today. This is the first of two shows that we're going to be doing today, breaking down our all pro teams on the athletic football show.

We did this last year. I had such a good time doing it. I felt like we should do it again, but we had to break it up into two episodes. so it wasn't literally three hours long because no one wants any of that. The podcast should not be the same runtime as Lincoln or drive my car. That is not what both will for an audio experience. So a little bit later on today's episode, Brandon Thorne is going to be joining us to break down the offensive lineman. All pro teams really didn't have anyone else I wanted to do that with except for him.

On defense, a little bit later, a second episode today, Brandon's going to do the front guys, defensive lineman at Drusher's interior guys and then Matt Bowen joined me to do the back seven guys. Corner, safeties, linebackers had so much fun chatting with those guys. But we're going to start with the pretty boys, with the superstars, with the guys who have the ball in their hands. And we're going to do that with a pretty boy himself. Nate Tice, Nate, how you doing, buddy?

I appreciate that. Is that the new blue shirt, you see? That's where I'm going. I'm wearing like a raggedy-ass cardigan. I've been doing these shows all day and just have not. put on real clothes. I look horrendous. I hope they use this for social. I've taken because I haven't gotten a haircut in weeks and weeks and weeks. So if anyone noticed this on our live shows, you see a lot more hats for me lately, including now. I do shower. I just put a hat on now because I'm like,

screw this. My hair is ragged. One of the most embarrassing things ever happened to me was like my first week or so at Grayland, maybe the first couple weeks. And Jacoby had just come out there to start working in the office a little bit more. And I mean, we were. working crazy hours at that point. I was up at like three in the morning every single day because we're publishing on an East Coast schedule. I lived alone in the shithole apartment in Hollywood. And he comes up to me at some one point and he goes, do you have other clothes? Like I was just wearing the same sweatshirt every single day. It just shattered my world. I'm 23 years old. I'm already self-conscious as is. Jacobi has taught me many great life lessons that I continue to apply to this day. But that was a really

low moment for me. I had that in Atlanta where I worked with the Falcons. I had one of the bosses just goes, hey Nate not's he prefaced it he's like not saying you smell or anything but he's like you shower right no this is because I wear a hat every single day and I'm like my eyes are ragged I was like I can shower more those are you need to hear those things when you're a young person sometimes early in your career sometimes those moments are important all right correct we're going to run through the skill position players today just overarching kind of theme that's going to permeate these conversations. The way that I always think about my all pro team is how do you tell the story of the season? What are the guys who define the season at those positions? How are you going to look back

on the 2021 year and tell the story of it? And that matters to me. You know, guys that had splash moments, guys that we talked about a lot. I do carry weight in that. I think that you have to look at the entire picture, but that does end up mattering to me personally. I think it's the same thing. For me, man it's like i want to honor the guys that really made a statement throughout the year i think that's and i think that's kind of similar what you're saying but it's funny what you told me pre-show about one of your picks and how you just preface that i think i you spoiled it for in my own head i'm not going to say anything but i think i know where you're going going with one of the picks now but i i will say with these with the skill

position groups it was pretty easy for me for the most part i did not have a lot of uh kind of hang it over the button but there are a couple that i feel like might be a little bit spicy that I felt good about in the moment. It felt good coming out of my hand with a couple of this. Yes, there you go. No, there is, I know, I would just spoil it. The receiver group was chalk. Yeah, I couldn't believe how easy that one was to do.

I was like, well, that was cut dry now that, especially when you told me no flex, it's three receivers. I was like, okay. That's easy. I will say, though, I feel like one of the guys is a flex. Let's just get to this. All right. Let's just get to us.

Let's start with quarterbacks. Who is your first team all pro quarterback? We're telling the story of the season. And this has kind of been one of the hardest things is who's that. And I think two weeks ago, we kind of said this guy's playing the best, best player in the league right now, or just playing the best ball. That's Aaron Rogers. That's my first team lost. I mean, no doubt about it, right?

He's playing some of the best ball of his entire career. And, you know, it's great. I know, insane. Especially with the O line woes. That is what's been so tremendous. I also speaking about Matt LaFourne in the offense and staff, I know. But all the old line was, you would have no idea that he's on third string and backups across the board. But you would have no idea.

You have no idea of Devante Adams missed the one game. It's because he's hitting slot fades like 35 yards down the field in rhythm about half a second after he catches a snap. Like it's a handoff. He's playing out of his mind all types of throws. He's lifting his shoulder up to throw checkdowns. He's putting sauce on this shit. Like he feels really good about it right now. You could tell there.

If a football player could, if you could hear the smug satisfaction coming off a guy while he's playing, that's what Aaron Rogers looks like in this moment. Like you said, felt felt good leaving the hand. Every single one of his throws feels good, leaving the hand. Like, oh, even remember the Ravens game a few weeks ago when he's hitting a couple of those throws and he makes it look casual? And it's like that's that we already forget about it. But those are like, just some guys, that's the best throw of their year. And he's doing them once a series. It's pretty sweet.

There's a pretty complicated conversation that's going to have to happen about Aaron Rogers here over the next few weeks. We don't have to have it now. He is undeniably our first team all pro quarterback for both of us. Who is your second team up? And we don't even need to list the numbers off. Like, if you go look at him if you want to. He leads the league in virtually every single important statistic. I think it's 0.19 EPA per dropback, which is significantly higher than everyone else.

I think the next closest is at 0.14. I mean, look at the percentages of that. He is in a world all his own right now with the way that he's played the position. I don't even think it's a question. Write it in Penn. Who's your second team guy? The more things change, the more they stay the same. I'm going with Tom Brady as my second team all pro, which pained me because I wanted to be, you know,

some cult of the new. Payne me not having Mahomes as one of these guys. Maybe there are a couple other guys not up here. Even looking at Burrough and Stafford's numbers, it's unbelievable what they're doing this season, even if, you know, whatever. It's funny how their stories have changed throughout the season. I know. I know. Stafford starts super high, coming back to Earth and the vice fair server with the borough.

But I'm going with Tom Brady. He almost threw 5,000 yards this year. He's only taking sacks on 3% of his dropbacks. While leading the league and big time throws, according to PFF. Those two things, you should not. be able to hold them at the same time in your mind. Leading the league in big time throws plus having the lowest sack percentage in the NFL. It's doing they're doing.

What he's doing there is what like Steph Curry when they're peaking with the warriors, just shooting all those threes and all that kind of offense that should be so hard, but making it look easy. Like that's what he's doing. And I couldn't believe it. You just, you're taking it for granted. Like I am. And then you watch those games and you're like, oh my God.

Oh my God. Oh my God. Like just throwing the game winner against the Jets. It's like, oh my God. Yes. or the corner pocket throw over AJ Terrell to Mike Evans. That is like, holy shit, that's a hell of a throw. And it's, he's just doing it.

Like, and so I have to honor him because it's just the team's doing well, even with the stuff that's happening. Now he's getting some injuries as well with Godwin and all that. But it's like, it doesn't matter. Tom Brady's just playing at such a high level that I had to give it to him, second team all pro. If we had done this three weeks ago, Tom Brady would have been my second team all pro. The other two guys I consider for this spot, Patrick Holmes, just because he's, come on really strong. If you look at all the numbers, he's right where we expect him to be. He's still Patrick Mahomes. And another guy who the number of negative plays over the last second

half of the season, how few sacks he takes when the ball started bouncing their way, how few interceptions are getting thrown. His style of play, the amount of negative plays he's eliminated over the last month and a half or so. He's back to where we all expected him to be. He's right in that conversation. And Herbert is in there for me too. He is right there in that chat for me, Because you look at, again, somebody, no sacks, just not taking sacks with the style of play that he has. No negative plays. He has one of the lowest turnover worthy play percentages in the entire league, according to PFS numbers. And it feels that way.

It just does not put the ball in harm's way. And when you think about all the splash plays they have, that ratio, super impressive for a guy who has his bundle of skills. Yes. The understating thing is that Brock was game, I tweeted it too, is that, like, he's playing. He can do those super efficient games where it's almost like it's almost like a Rogers game where it's just like, oh my God, he just nickel and dimes in in a good way, just knifeing you left and right. He doesn't make any mental mistakes. That's what's crazy. When you combine that with a guy who's built like him and has six to three.

Yeah. It's going to be crazy. I mean, we've talked about this. I will still take him over every other young quarterback in the league. Like he is, I planted my flag there this summer, right? Like I feel like I have staked out that terrible. territory. All of that being said, my second team, all pro quarterback is Joe Burrow. I figure when he said story of the season, that's kind of, I knew where you're going to go with this.

I was looking at it today. And I expected to put Brady in there. Like, just first glance, before I even started doing this, like, I think Brady will be in there. And then I started looking at it more and more. And you look at some of the numbers. He's fifth in EPA per dropback. Even when you take all the sacks into account, I know the sacks matter. I know you can't just throw them out. He's taking 51 of them. It's twice as many as these other quarterbacks that we're talking about. But there's still fifth in EPA per dropback with all of those sacks. And I know some of that is on him, but their offensive line is not very good. It's not very good. So I'm just, you try to separate that kind of stuff and purse it. He is first in the NFL in EPA per attempt. When the ball leaves his hands, they have been the most efficient offense in football.

And not only have they been efficient, they've been exciting. He leads the league. in completion percentage over expectation this year. So it's not all these easy layups. The degree of difficulty on some of these throws, the way he's pushed the ball down the field, on plays where he's blitzed this season, he averages 9.63 air yards per attempt.

It's one of the highest rates in the entire league. Gash or be gashed. The style of football they have played this year. And you just think about all of the pocket movement and all of the second reaction plays he's able to make, just how aggressive he's been. what they just did against the chiefs, that's enough for me. Like, I know that they've played the worst slated defenses in the entire league up to this point,

but I just feel like he's playing about as well as anybody is right now. And I wanted to celebrate that. You could have given it to any of the guys that we just listed, right? I think Brady makes total sense. I think Mahalms would be fine. But I just feel like we're trying to capture what this season has been. You can easily make an argument for him getting it, and I'm comfortable making that argument. it's one of those where it's like yeah i i i completely agree like it's like one of those there was

three or four guys that you could have given it to and so i'm not even blinked my eye when i started going through sifting through stats just normal counting stats even just he's throwing over 70 70% completion percentage like just like that kind of stuff it's while pushing the ball down the field it's not pushing the ball down the field it's not like it's not easy it's not easy and it's like chase and t higgins make these great plays on these go balls and everything but guess what all those balls are on the freaking money every single time that's there's a reason those goal balls get completed. It's because he knows how to loft him and he knows how to angle him.

Like, yeah, I, I'm not even blanking the eye because it's just, it's really tremendous what he's done, especially in the second half of the season. It's been really fun to watch. All right. Let's get to running backs. This one was easy for me. First team running back. How much do we need me to talk about it?

Not much. I'm wearing a Wisconsin sweatshick. On Wisconsin. Jonathan Taylor. I mean, what else is saying? Okay, this was a stat because I'm always big on first downs. Because this is another stat to look at. Like how much he's, he's created.

104 first downs on the ground. The next highest is Naji Harris was 61. That's insane. The difference between Naji Harris. Okay, so the difference was that that's 43. He had 104, Nogieris had 61. The 43 difference between Nogieris' second is next is 70 second. If you go 43, the difference of that.

That's the difference. It's insane. I actually was just, I couldn't believe that was the number. 104 first downs created. And then on top of all that, 1700 yards, 18 touchdowns. He's becoming a complete. fleet back and pass protection. The fumbles have gotten better he had four this year, but it's like it's getting better.

Like he's just, he's the best back in the league. He's incredible. It's a historic season. It really is. You look at it. We talked a lot the other day about just how his season that he's had right now is different from what Derek Henry did last year, for example. And it's, you look at the advanced numbers and you dig a little bit deeper.

So you mentioned that sad about first downs. Jonathan Taylor this season has generated 32.5 to total rushing EPA. No one else is above 11. So he's generated three times as much value as every other running back in the NFL this year. Oh, my God. It's insane. When you have this sort of volume, it doesn't always happen. Like Derek Henry's number last year was half of what Jonathan Taylor has done this year.

It's the efficiency plus the volume, plus what he's meant to their offense. They are a top 10 offense by DVOA, by other metrics. And it's because of the running game. It's because of him. It's not because of wins. And their offensive line, I know their offensive line is monster names, right? Their offensive line has not been the same unit this year that has been in years past. Quentin Nelson's been banged up all year.

Eric Fisher took a little while to come on. They've had guys in and out of the lineup, and he's still doing this. Like, in my opinion, he is clear cut number one. It's one of the easiest guys to do this with. I mean, him, Rogers, Donald, Trent Williams, I think that might be the easiest group. Like the clear cut number one. There are other first team guys that were easy. but like the first name that came to mind of the position he's right there with those guys from me this year

yeah and i think just even too like i think football outsiders are saying that his seasons up there with terrell davis's 98 season or whatever like it's just far it's a historic year and the difference between like him and henry and like that entire offense has to revolve around derrick henry you could plant jonathan taylor in any offense and it's going to work yes they you're going to lean into it because you have him back there but it's like he all the different type of runs that he's good at it's just he's in it incredible football player. It's not just like he's a one-trick pony. He just, he does it every down and every type of run, every type of pass.

It's cool. My second team guy is Nick Chubb. I don't mind that I know that's, I'm a character, caricature of myself at this point. It's Nick Chup. Like, to me, he's the second best back in the league. And you're really not having to strain to see it. It's not like his counting stats were that much lower than anybody else. I mean, he was third in the league in rushing yards this season.

And if you look at all the numbers, rushing yards over expectation, per attempt, yards after contact per attempt. He's still right there next to Jonathan Taylor in all of those metrics. Like Nick Chubb to me was the second best running back cumulatively and per touch this season in the NFL. And I, as my honorable mentioned, this, the second team back was my, I would say my hardest one of this entire selection because Joe Mixon was another one I was looking at as well.

Joe Mixon's had a really good year. I mean, that inside zone game that they like to do under center, it's all because of him because he's such a good. guy finding the spots and no one to plant this foot. He's a complete back. Pest protection is a little shaky in the eyes, but it's improving. But honestly, I almost put Nick Chubb. This is my, I would say my only little spicy pick.

My second team, all pro running back is Austin Echler. I love it. I love it. Yeah. And if you, okay, rushing stats, it's 800 yards, 11 touchdown. So it's counting stats. It's okay. All right, that's not bad.

But then if you look, his yards from scrimmage, it's almost 1,500 yards. He is a, as complete a back in the game as there is. He's a true weapon in the passing game. He, I mean, he's 18 total touchdowns. He's really unguardedable in that sense. There's no bigger drop off from the number one back to the number two back than what the Chargers have. When he's not in the game, it's like, oh, like you're scared because he's great pass

protection. He's a true back. He's just a little undersized, which kind of limits him that way. But he's honestly just been, he's been so dynamic. He makes that run game go. He makes the past game. I mean, really does help make the past game go. Him and Justin Herbert have a great chemistry together.

Really fun player. I'm going to give him second team all pro because what he's doing right now, it's, he's a fantasy guys know, but in real football, he's a real, real, real good football player. And yeah,

I'm a big fan of his. Coming into this season, speaking of fantasy, just in fantasy drafts all over the place, when you're looking at him and he was being like, I don't know, the 10th, 11th running back take.

I was like, this is insane. Like he should be the, it should be four or five. It was like one of the only fantasy takes I had this year that I felt good about. Him and Mixin were the two running backs. I was like, these guys are top five running backs this year.

And they both were. Unfortunately, Eckler was kept in my league in Mexican, I didn't have enough money for in the auction. But it is what it is. I help out with my wife's office league. And she was like, so who did I draft him?

Like Austin Echler. And she was like, okay, do you have him? I kind of say, like, did you just draft him? Because you're doing my league? I was like, I have him three of my league. Like, yes, I'm a big fan of his. And so she's like, okay.

So Austin Echler is her guy. Like, that's like one of her favorite players now because she just, he's really exciting. Cooper Cup. He's a great player. Oh, my God. Just watching him run all those choice routes and angle routes. Like, it's not just like Kamara running those and him running those is a little bit different.

Camarra's so smooth and just, you know, he catches it and he's weaving it out. Eckler's explosive. Yeah. He catches it. There's a burst after he catches it. And it's not just eye test where I'm like, oh, this is cool watching on film. It's like, no, he tangibly affects every game every time he touches the ball or doesn't touch the ball because he's so great patch protection too. Sorry, I just sidebar.

Middle of the year, he called out the other running. running backs because he was like someone else's got to get better in past protection like he's like he's hey guys I need a fucking blow like you guys can't have me in there every play I'm 190 pounds but I just love that he's he's a great player all right let's get to receivers so the way I did this is I did two outside in one slot you know they they did away with the true 11 personnel so I'm not that's the way I was thinking about it this year was very easy to do that because yes one of these guys who in my opinion is no doubt about it. No brain or first team guy spent 60% of his time in the slot. But who is your first outside receiver? Okay. Devante Adams. And I mean, it's he's insane what

he's done this year. I'm just going to preface. My receiver picture pretty chalk, but it's, I mean, so are mine. Yeah, but he missed one game this year. And just again, I'm a big on first downs. He has 81st downs and 15 games on 162 targets. I mean, almost just that 50% threshold that I love. but he's honestly just been he leads the league in defensive pass interference is drawn like he is unguarded what him and Aaron Rogers is doing it are doing is like one of the you'll never see anything better from a receiver and quarterback combo it's next level stuff I mean it's next level their chemistry and just their innate understanding of each other I don't think I've ever seen anything stocked him alone pick and roll that's what it is it's the mind melt that these two

have it's so much fun to watch but yeah he's I think he's one the easiest guys when you're talking about the locks. He was my lock along with this other guy that we'll probably talk about in a sec. So Adams is on mine. I think just no doubt. Like no brainer. Like if it's an easy one. The other outside guy I had in mine, I had Justin Jefferson. I did too. On my first one. Just watch what he's done all season. To me, this was really easy. Like these three guys, Devante Adams outside, Justin Jefferson outside. You look at all the numbers. These guys are right there at the top. Everything you want to see. Yards per route run. EPA created part of Target. it, everything you want to see.

And the guy had on the inside is Cooper Cup. Like those three guys, those to me are the three best receivers in the NFL right now and the best guys in terms of production in this season. Yep, it was so easy. It's like how I reputation wise and also counting stats, advanced stats. They were to top three in Football Outsiders, D.YAR. Check. Check.

Check. It's like, anyway, shake it. And we got to stop treating Cooper Cup. It's like, oh, he's a fun little thing. Like, oh, look, a nice little season. It's like Nirvana. Like, now he's pop. Now he's on mainstream.

radio like he's not some indie band anymore he is i mean he is incredible and we got to stop kind of going like oh you know you know he gets targeted a lot it's just because of the offense no he is unguardable he what he's doing play and play out it's one of the best players in the week any position so i completely agree these three were so easy and all anyway you shake it three the three of the best receivers in the game and they should get awarded as so so if you look at it cooper cup on his receptions this year has generated 150.1 EPA that's the number one rate in the entire league. Justin Jefferson is second at 124.1 and Devonte Adams is third at 122.4.

Like those are just the guys, right? I mean, it's not that hard. Don't make it harder than it has to be. Okay. Second team. I had Jamar Chase. I did too. There's really no reason to keep him off.

If we're talking about these stats, right? Among players with elite, this to me is crazy. Okay. Among players of at least 75. targets. Jamar Chase has the ninth highest A dot in the entire league. He is still second in yak per reception, despite having the ninth highest a dot in the entire league. He is second in the NFL in EPA generated on 20 plus air yard throws and he's been the second most efficient yards after catch player in the NFL. That shouldn't be a thing. Nope, nope, nope, it shouldn't,

it should not, especially how they play them. It's, that's, that's, that's, Absolutely insane. Leads the league in yards per reception, like just even that. Like, D.YAR, six and a football outsider. Sixth in yards per outrun, fourth and total EPA on his targets. Anyway, he's mentioned there. He's fourth. So story, narrative, how exciting he's been, the moments and the county stats and the advanced numbers.

I mean, there's a little bit of a dip in the middle of the season in terms of overall production. But I don't think he struck back hard. Yeah, I don't think that should matter. Like it, I just feel like he checks every single box. So he's there for me. The other outside guy that I had, I guess, outside guy, is Debo. And I just think if you look at the ways he's affected the game, again, how exciting he's been, how unique he is to their offense, the role that he plays. But it's not a gimmicky thing.

He's second in yards per run on the season. And that EPA generated on his target stat, he's seventh. Like, he's affected the game in much more than an interesting way. It's not like, oh, that's a curiosity. Like, we should talk about that. The actual impact as a receiver is very real. And then you think about all the other little things he's done. You look at it.

He is averaging 10.2 yards after catch per reception. His yards after catch over expected. So per reception is five. So five, he gets five more yards after the catch every single time he catches the ball, which is the highest in the league. It's comfortable. It's not just a little touch pass jet sweepstop. It's all those slants and drags that they run them on.

He has an 8.2 average depth of target. And he's still leading the league in yards after catch. I didn't know. I didn't realize how many receiving yards, just straight receiving yards. Yep. Like I actually was like kind of like, I looked at it. I was like, oh, I must be on catches, like reception sorting. And I clicked.

I was like, oh, no, that's yards. Oh, my God. Yeah. It's the same, it's the same argument as Eckler for me. And not brilliant argument. I don't think many people are going to like bat an eye about Debo being so high. is that they're just football players and they're just special football players. They're not just some super role player.

It's like, no, they are stars. Like that's what they are. And yeah, he's fifth in yardage. He has 13 total touchdowns, just even counting stats. It's, yeah. And I mean, you watch him. It feels different. It's he catches those balls like the Titans game.

He had one. And he catches the slant. And same like how more chases a little bit, but it just, he runs different. Like it's, it looks like it's the same speed as everyone else. But then also everyone else is moving away from him. And it's like, he just different this year, right? Like he was all, I was always like, oh, I like him. Like, he's got something to him.

He's nice. This year it feels like the game breaking plays have been there in a way that they haven't been before. Every time he touches the ball, it feels that way. I had Tyree Kill was my second team slot receiver. He spends about 50% of his snaps in the slot. I mean, you look at it, still 10th and yards per route run this year. He's still Tyree Kill.

You know, they haven't had the down the field dominance this season that they have in years past. But how important he is to that offense because of the after the catch stuff. and what he can do for them as teams take away those shot plays, but they're still trying to create explosives. He has a unique ability to be able to do that. And I think he's been really, really instrumental in them kind of sorting their way through whatever this season has felt like offensively. Yeah, it's like death taxes and Tyrick Hill torching you.

Yeah, he, Tiger Hill is also my second team as well. He has had some drops crop up this year, but it's just like what he does game in, game out. like you have to account for them every single play how they use them on everything deep balls underneath stuff we talk about catching those flats and shorter routes and getting 10 yards when you should only got two and just doing that consistently yeah uh i think that's a no-brainer so yeah we have the same same three first team or first and second team guys i really do feel like those are the obvious ones like i i don't you can maybe make any way you shake a couple more guys but i just i think that's

the clearest cut position group of any of them like a top six the fact that the top six is that defined. Yeah. It really does feel that way. Like, I mean, I, I put an honorable mention on each one, like just, just a note so we can talk about it. And honorable mention for me, he goes, this is cut dry. That's, that's what I said. That's, I mean, if you want to talk about guys who've, like, been a little bit different, but still really good, like Hunter Renfro's had a good season, like guys like that. But I think that this group is pretty solidified, right? Agreed. Completely. And it's funny, too, seeing, uh, because I like looking at football outs or stuff, but like, seeing Jamar Chase was sixth and then T. Higgins was fourth.

Oh, he's up there, all of these metrics, by the way. All the stats. He's a star, too. And we just, I think, aren't realized it. I mean, that's pretty insane that they're about to have that pairing. We're working together for a few years. All right, tight end. Who's your first team tight end? I've gone back and forth how I'm going to do this. But I think first team giving it to George Kittle. I understand that.

I know. I wanted to give it to who I'm going to give it the second team to, which I think was pretty obvious. but once he came back from injury, just like what he does every play in play out. 9.80 yards, six touchdowns just basic count stats. But just what he brings to the table as a blocker, he's a true difference maker. I mean,

every time we talk about guys touching the ball and you're like, that could be an explosive play or a touchdown. That's what Kittl does. And it's just seeing that that entire offense change when he came back from injury. So it's almost like a tight end MVP that I'm kind of voting on this with this. I completely understand that.

That's how I feel about it. And I know the guy that I'm going to give second team two could obviously could be the first team as well, but I just think I got to give it to Kittle. It's just a true difference maker, one of the best players at any position in the entire NFL. It was close enough to me that he did not make it simply because of the miss games, right? And I think that's the only reason he's off for the exact reasons that you said, how complete he is, how valuable he is to what they do. I had Mark Andrews first team. Yep.

I mean, you look at the numbers, six most receiving yards by a tight end since the merger. And this is 16 games, right? This is before we even get to the 17th. That's what was kind of nice about doing this this week, was that we didn't have to, like, account for that. I think I'm going to do this from now on because it's so much easier to do it that way. So Mark Andrews is a ninth in yards per route run, okay? At any position, if you look at it, he is third in the NFL this season, an EPA generated on his targets behind Cup and Devante Adams. That's it.

That's impressive, right? And he's done it with Tyler Huntley, a quarterback for a hand. handful of games. It's not like they've had Lamar all season. They haven't been this relentless machine offensively what he has meant to their passing game. I mean, I think you can make an argument that he's been one of the most valuable players, period, in the entire NFL over the course of the year. Yeah. And again, I'm going to bring up the first down stats because he's at 72 first down scott on 138 targets, better than the 50% threshold, which is like the elite of the elite. So it's like he's efficient. He's got nine touchdowns. So he's doing the explosive play.

He's like, I know. That's why it was really hard. So no offense, Ravens fans or anything like that. But it's like, this guy, if you, it's for first team, I totally get. But that's, I'm glad you, you did it right with having him first team because Mark Andrews is obviously my second team because, man, it's one of those where I was like, man, he's getting better. He doesn't have the drops and crop up as much this year. That's what it felt like.

He would always have some bad drops, like at the worst times it seemed like. It seems like he's just become more of a consistent player that you want to see all the young tight end. And it's like, yeah, he's a true difference maker. way you shake itself. No qualms at all making him first team because it was really hard to not make him my first team guy. I had Kelsey in the second team just because of the missed games from Kittle. I mean, if Kittal had played 15 games, I would have had Kittal as a second team, but Travis Kelsey still Travis Kelsey. I mean, it wasn't the exact, it wasn't the historic type seasons that we're

used to seeing from Travis Kelsey. But if you look at him, I mean, he was still, if we're talking about that, talk about EPA generated on his receptions. He's 14, right? Second among tight ends. I mean, he's still right there among the most efficient players in the entire league in just what he's accomplished this year. And it's another thousand-yard season, 88 more catches. He's got eight touchdowns. It'd be an incredible tight end season from anyone else. From him, it just feels ho-hum because. Tom Brady.

Yes. Yeah, just another one. Yeah. Just another awesome year. These guys better enjoy it, by the way, because Kyle Pitts is coming. I was about to say that. Pitts is coming. So I was watching today.

I went back and I was watching Chris Lindstrom, who we'll talk about a little later. I thought he was really good this season. And so I was watching the Bucks Falcons game from week two because I wanted to watch Terrell and Lidsstrom and all the Bucks guys. And I'm watching that game and just watching what Kyle Pitts is doing. I was like, oh, it's only a matter of time, man. It's only a matter of time.

I mean, he had 1,000 yards this year and we didn't even talk about it. But 1,000 yards as he's still figuring out how to play tight-ed-ed-ed-ed. It's just like, oh, my God. He's 21. He's 21. on. Like, it's the difference between that. It's insane what he's about to do. Like, it's, we're not ready for what the Kyle Pitts experience in the NFL for the next decade. I mean, some of the guys drafted in the top 10 this year, Chase, what a class. Slater, Kyle Pitts. I mean, we, I think we kind of knew that to a certain extent. Like, Sewell was really good down the back half of the season. It's going to be really fun to watch this rookie class develop, grow, just settle in because there's a lot of talented guys. Well, so I like, don't like to say. I don't like I

I people have been bugging me about it I think are you going to talk about fields and the season they had and what the bears need to do I was like after the season yeah I will sit down we'll have a conversation about it

I have many thoughts about what he looks like this year about what they need to do all of that stuff but we're going to save that for another time there's going to be a lot of bears chatter as they fire and try to hire a coach so that it'll be so much fun we're going to save it for that

I'm just glad because I'm not on the defense podcast that that AJ Terrell is going to get some love because that is one of the all-time slights. I mean, I know I'm on his hype train, but the fact that you didn't make a Pro Bowl team is absolutely ridiculous. Would dig be on your first team for corners? Probably not.

I went back and forth on it because I just think that the intercepts. It's hard for me not to give it to Ramsey. Oh, so there's three corners. Oh, there's three now. That's right because they don't do it. Yeah, yeah. So I had Ramsey as my slot corner. I cheated because you could put them on there this year.

It's the same as Tyree Kill putting Tyree Kill in the slot. So I had Ramsey is my, I shouldn't spoil this, but I had Ramsey as my sock corner. And then I had to give it to Diggs. Like I just, I feel like it's, it's hard to understand like how much of a risk he's taking because they allow him to do it. Like if the style that he plays with, I just think there's a lot to untangle there, even if he's given up a ton of yardage. And to me, it's, I get it. I, I'm saying story of the season too. Yeah, right.

So it's one of those things. But that is for a different podcast. I think Lattimore should get some love too. That would be another one I would be in there. Here's what I'll tell you guys. You should go listen to the defensive podcast with Matt Bowen. It's coming out a little bit later today. So go check that out.

All right, buddy. This was very, very fun. Awesome. I'll be talking to you multiple different times over the next few days. People who are listening to this right now probably understand when you're going to be on here over the next week or so. Yep. So I'll see you Thursday for Friday. And then I'll see you Sunday for Monday.

All right. I'll talk to you soon. All right. See, dude. It is time to transition. to the big ugly guys with Brandon Thorne. Let's get to watch out with Brandon. All right, I'm thrilled now to welcome.

Good friend of mine. Someone I love talking about offensive and defensive line play with because no one, I would say no civilian, no one in the general public that has not coached in the NFL, played in the NFL, watches these positions with as keen of an eye as our next guest. Brandon Thorne, thank you so much for joining me, buddy. Absolutely, Robert. Anytime, man. It's always a pleasure.

So when you guys are looking for offensive line resources, you should absolutely be checking out the work that Brandon does on trench warfare, his substack. So many great breakdowns, resources. You guys should absolutely go take a look at that if you have not. What we're going to do today with you, as you very well know, we're going to do the offensive line and defensive line, all pro teams. Let's start with the offense and let's start at left tackle. Who is your first team all pro left tackle? I assume this was pretty easy for you. Yeah, yeah, this was probably the easiest selection of any position, honestly, outside of maybe Aaron Donald. But that's 49ers left tackle Trent Williams. You know, I think he missed a game this year. But, you know, aside from like the missed game, there's really nothing to like knock him on this season. I think arguably the best year of his career. And he's had a lot of really, you know, high level first team all pro caliber seasons. What was different about it? What do you think really?

out compared to other seasons that he's had? You know, I think it's just the frequency at which he's executing these just unreal blocks because it's not like he's doing anything different. It's just the rate is higher. And I think it's just probably a product of a couple things. You know, him, you know, obviously just being in a place where he's wanted, he's happy, you know, all the stuff he's overcome, you know, off the field with his health. And then the scheme that he's in is truly, you know, Taylor made to feature a guy of his talent, you know, in terms of the run game especially.

And then, of course, heavy play action allows him to jump set a lot and just really get on guys quickly and pass protection. But then at the same time, he could just do drop back pass at a very high level and just, you know, set out at a, you know, vertical or 45 degree angle and handle himself on an island as well. So he can really do everything. but in a Shanahan scheme with how much, you know, Shanahan features him pulling, leading in the run game, climbing up to the second level, you know, the backside of his own runs. It really is just the perfect situation for for him to show off what he can do. Such a great phrase to use because that's exactly what it is. It's just a showcase for why he is. I mean, this guy was a top five pick, right?

He's one of the most physically talented left tackles to come along in the last couple decades. And he now plays in the perfect offense to showcase that physical skill set. Whether it's even the amount of perimeter runs they have is just the perfect example, right? This is one of the most perimeter run focused offenses in the entire league. And having a left tackle with those movement skills fits perfectly with what they want to do. And he moves better than any left tackle in the league is now into his mid-30s, which is absolutely crazy. The one thing I noticed, going back and watching a bunch today, I can't remember a left tackle season where I've watched somebody put more people on the ground.

Every single game, there are like six to eight plays, at least where a guy ends up on the ground, both as a pass blocker and in the run game. I'm not talking about like crazy pancake blocks where you're throwing people 15 yards out of bounds, but just torquing people into the turf over and over again or just stuffing them when, how would you, what, how would you call that when you like, when you just faceplant somebody? What's the actual term for that? It's like a snatch. Yeah.

You're just, you're taking away their, their levers, you know, their ability. Like if they, if any guy ever leans on him. Yes. Exactly. He's taking away. He's taking away that hand or that arm and, you know, putting guys on their face, basically. It's remarkable. I mean, I can't remember watching a left tackle Dominique like this physically in a really

long time. Because even the guys that were pristine pass blockers, like the Joe Thomas's of the world, this is just different when you watch what he does in the run game. It's a really special season by someone at that position. Yeah, it really is. Yeah, and like you said, it's the run game stuff. The pass pro stuff is really good, but the run game stuff is like, you know, first ballot hall of fame type level stuff.

Totally. You just can't really get much better. I mean, yeah, so it's special. He can really impose his will on guys in a way that you just don't see, you know, in the trenches at all, period. He's just kind of in his own tier right now. It looks like high school tape. Like when the kid is the best player on a high school field, that's what it feels like sometimes. That's how truly dominant he looks against the best players in the world.

And it's really, really hard to do that and to make guys look that silly consistently. I mean, just real quick, too, to kind of cap it off to give a couple illustrations of that. I've known film rooms on it, but the backside of zone runs is really like where he's very unique in that, you know, say there's a three technique and he has to, you know, get in front of him, cut him off, you know, just obstruct his pathway to the, you know, to the ball to pursue from the backside. And he's so good about just reaching out and just snatching a guy's arms and putting him on the ground. He's done it this season in dominant fashion to Jeffrey Simmons, Kenny Clark. So he's done it to these type of guys. And it's just you just don't see that. You do not see.

I've never seen Jeffrey Simmons or Kenny Clark put on their face in a way that Trent Williams did to them this season. And that's just two examples. I mean, if there's a backup caliber guy, that guy's getting ragged all the whole game pretty much. It's unreal. So second team all pro left tackle was very hard. It was not easy for me to land on somebody.

I'm curious who yours is. I went with Chargers rookie left tackle or Sean Slater. You know, for me, just his body control, man, and his ability to stay centered and balanced and pass protection in particular, but even as a run blocker, he's just a guy who just does not find himself in compromising positions very much. Ever. Ever. No, he really doesn't.

And, I mean, if he does, he's outstanding at recovering and, you know, staying attached to blocks. So that to me was special enough to earn this distinction. Even as a rookie, you know, I'm usually, you know, I say that I'm hesitant about giving, you know, distinctions like this to rookies. But then last year I did it for Tristan Worf's or was a couple years ago whenever, is he second? It was last year. It was last season. Yeah, yeah.

So, but yeah, I mean, back to back years, we've had really special seasons from tackles. Tristan Worse at Wright last year and Rashon Slater left this year. I think they're pretty equal in terms of how impressive they've been. Yeah, I mean, it's what he does in pass protection, though. I mean, it's really interesting, too, just to watch him because obviously his size is so different than, you know, 90, 99% of left tackles in the game. Especially the elite guys, right? Yeah, yeah. Watch him compare it to like a Tyron Smith.

It's like watching a guy play a different position. And the fact that he's still so good is such a testament to just. the little details he plays the position with. Yep, yep. And it's his body control and, you know, weight distribution, I like to call it, just the ability to play centered. He's just very precise and technically sound, fundamentally sound. And for a guy to take a year off football like he did and to come in as a rookie and

play this well, it's really special, man. And, you know, the Chargers put a lot on his plate. He's playing on an island a lot in that offense. and, you know, they have no qualms about just leaving him out there against whoever and just trusting that he's going to get the job done. So a lot's put on him and he's, you know, lived up to it week in, week out this season. So, yeah, I mean, it's just very difficult for guys. I think a lot of guys, when I watch, you know, guys go against him, they try to test his anchor a lot. And it's just, you know, to no avail. I mean, he's like a, you know, he's very stout and obviously he has a natural leverage

advantage over a lot of guys that he faces. So guys just can't get underneath him. And he's just so good about being firm at the point of attack and just maintaining the pocket. And yeah, man, I mean, he has the foot quickness and the athletic ability to stick with guys around the corner as well. And he plays with outstanding effort and finish too. I mean, you know, typically at the top of the drop, guys can kind of get around the corner late on guys, but not him. I mean, he's sticking on guys throughout the whistle. And he even is a really good run blocker too, man. He leads in the run game and does really nice stuff in the run game as well.

They feature him. You've seen him in space several times this year, pickoff corners and stuff like that. So, I mean, he could really do it all. He's a special player. You said it all. He's my second team out guy as well. I just think the no compromising position's point is the perfect one. He is just always where he wants to be.

And for a guy in his first season, it's really rare. You just don't see that very often. And again, the anchor point, I started smiling because it's exactly what jumps out when you watch him because when you see a guy with his physical frame play the position. If you go like on mock drafts or whatever and you look at the similar physical profiles of what he was at the Combine versus other guys, it's all first round guards. I mean, his body type and his arm length and his height and everything else, that's why there was a conversation about him playing inside because his frame looks more like that of a guard than a tackle. So when you watch somebody built like that, not only succeed at left tackle, but be a dominant level player, it's kind of strange to watch at times. And people definitely think that they can use their length against him and get into his body and go right through him. And it just doesn't happen.

How well he anchors down just how functional his body is and just how there's no wasted movements. He has such a good handle on how he wants to play the position and what his plan is. is playing and play out. And for a guy that young to have such a good grasp of that, you just don't see it come along very often. No, no. And I think it's a good point about being kind of like that guard frame. I mean, coming out, I had a first round grade on him and everything.

I mean, I thought he's a really good player. But, yeah, it was hard not to envision like a Joel Bentonio type of guy. That's kind of how I, you know, at time, different times saw him. I ultimately projected him as a tackle, but I like the idea of kicking him inside as well. I didn't think that was a, you know, a crazy idea. Now in hindsight, obviously, it probably is, but. He's an all pro love tackle for the next 10 years, hopefully. Right, right. I know. So, yeah, I kind of fell into that trap a little bit as well, you know, just conventional wisdom. President matters, man. I mean, it's hard to see that stuff sometimes,

and it's hard to project that. You need some imagination. The other guy that I was going to mention there was, is Andrew Whitworth, just as kind of a nod to what he's done again this season. And the fact that he's still so good in past protection at 40 years old and just has such a handle on, again, how he wants to play the position, even as his physical skills may be diminishing a little bit. It's pretty cool to watch. I just feel like I wanted to give a little tip of the cap to him before we moved on here. Yeah, that's a good one for sure. Him or Tyron Smith, those are probably the two guys I consider.

Tyron missed time. That was like the only thing that did me dinged him in my eyes. I have some guys that miss some games on here, but I just think he missed too many to make the cut. Yeah, I agree. All right. Left Guard, who's your first team guy? So left guard was a little bit more challenging, but I'm going to go ahead and go with Chiefs left guard Joe Tuny. And, you know, I just think it's more of the same with him as well. Basically kind of kind of the same player he's been with the Patriots, the last, you know, half dozen or so seasons. But he's overcome a lot of adversity this year.

and I think he's just been so steady the whole year. 16 starts, obviously he fractured his hand in week five, didn't miss any time. Never does. No, he hasn't missed a game yet in his career. I think he's six years in or whatever now. But yeah, fractured just handed week five, followed it up the next game against Jonathan Allen

with one of the best games I've ever seen against Jonathan Allen with the fractured hand in week six. That was incredible. boy, I did a film room on that. I mean, that just, like, you know, was really a special game. And then, you know, last week, what played left tackle filled in there, you know, we've seen him play center in the past. He's just one of those guys who's just immensely valuable to an offensive line because

you know where you're getting weekend, week out. And I think how he wins is just really fun for me to watch as well because he's so good at what I like to call like negotiating leverage. He's so good with his hands and his pad, staying under. guys and framing guys up and just staying attached to blocks. He just finds ways he's crafty, you know, just those kind of, those terms that get thrown around a little bit loosely, sometimes with offensive linemen who just get the job done. I mean, it all applies to him. I think he's just, he just has a really good understanding of what he's doing.

He's not overwhelming physically, but he's just technically sound and he's just so good with his hands. He's quick. And he's just like a pest, you know, he's just one of those guys. to not defeat very easily. And even if you're a guy like Jonathan Allen, who, in my opinion, is one of the most three or four dominant defensive tackles in the game, he tried to run through Tuni and Tuni who just kept resetting and staying underneath him and staying in front of him. And it was just, he just had an incredible year, man. I mean, you know, you could probably put one or two guys ahead of him.

But I think, you know, collectively with what he did this season, I think it's deserving and being mentioned in that first team all pro category. I think he's probably the best year of his career. And then to do it coming off a contract that he got as well, that's impressive as well. So he's just been so steady for them this year. After my first and second team guys, I have also Tuning is my note.

He's like my third guy that just missed the cut. I had Betonio is my first team guy. I just think that I love watching what he does for them in the run game. I'm on both the backside and as a puller to the front. Like when you watch him, there was the first drive, I think, against New England, they had multiple big runs where he's either leading up on Bentley, on the play side, or they're pulling to the right. And what he can do in space at times is also really impressive.

I just think he does everything well. And then you watch what he's done over the last couple weeks, just playing left tackle casually. I mean, watching what he did against the Packers and just the fact that he can hold up against Roshan Garys and Preston Smith's, he's just such a solid player to me. And this is a weird year because Quentin Nelson was not the same guy, right? I mean, he just was not the same guy.

I think he's been dinged up for a good portion of this season. I don't think he was nearly as dominant as he has been in years past. So I kind of think it created a vacuum for somebody else. And I had Betonio in there. And I had Marpet as my second team guy. I just think that he's such a good player. And again, another really solid season from him. So I had those two guys as my first and second team.

Who's your second team guy? Yeah, I see Betonio and Tunio. very similarly. I think they win very similarly as well. So that that's a interesting parallel there. But second team for me was Ali Marpet, you know, 15 starts this year, I think. And it's just more of the same for Marpet. Who plays for the Bucks, by the way, we should be explicit about this. We'll talk about interior offensive linemen. Yeah. I mean, he's still somehow underrated. But I think he might have made the Pro Bowl this year, which is kind of cool. But yeah, I mean, Marpet, you know, the thing with him that, how he wins is he's one of the strongest, you know,

left guards in the game right after probably Quentin Nelson. He's probably the second strongest left guard in football. And that really translates over to his anchor. I mean, he's very, very firm and stout at the point of attack. Guys really can't. But also moves well. I mean, it's impressive for somebody's so big to move as well as he does. He's very athletic. They don't do it a ton but it's really whatever every time it happens i'm like ooh they get a little like jolt every single time i see him on the move think about that play in the super bowl like every time he does something like that's like oh man i wish they did that more i know and the bucks thankfully this season have done that a little bit more they've got guys out in space which has been awesome but but yeah marpet came into the league

very athletic uh in terms of testing and stuff like that and how he looked at the senior ball and all that him. And, you know, he played center and right guard early on in his career at a very high level before he settled in at left guard. So he has like 16 starts at three positions, I think. So he could do it all as well. But, but yeah, he's very athletic. You know, I think his strength stands out, you know, very much so. His grip strength. I mean, once he gets latched on a guy, it's pretty much over. Very physical in the run game as well. For him, for a guy with that athletic base to develop into such a physical player, that's what, you know, has made him like an elite caliber left guard because he can really do it all. And he's been so consistent as well. I mean,

you know, that buck's offensive line. It's, you know, we'll probably talk about another guy or two on that line, but it's just so, it's so fun to talk about them because of the parallel with Tom Brady, you know, and you have to try to parse out how much is Brady doing it, how much is the line doing it. But I think when you really watch, and you know, especially in the run game, obviously, you know, you see how special some of the stuff that Marpet does is, but then in past protection as well, I mean, regardless of who's back there before Brady was there, Marpet was playing at the same level. So I think Marpet's certainly deserving of being on this team. The run game stuff is, I think, where you have to really focus on that, because they can

flip the switch as well as anybody. It's like, if we need to line up and run the ball at you right now, we can do it. And they've shown that ability this year. And I think that what they have on the interior and just all across the line, all five guys gives them a chance to do that. I think Marpet is a huge part of that. All right. Center is a complicated area. Who is your first team center? So center for me is pretty easy. But, you know, I mean, I went with Ryan Jensen at first team, you know, 16 starts. He hasn't missed a game in five years. And, you know, for him to not miss a game in five years to play with the reckless abandon that he does is really, really special. I mean, this guy to me is the biggest tone setter in football.

And I know that that can, you know, be kind of an obscure thing to say, but it really isn't when you watch the games. I mean, his presence is palpable when you watch them play on offense. I mean, he really dictates things offensively, especially in past protection. I mean, those A gaps, he truly creates fear for guys coming into the A gaps because they know that they're going to get into a fight most likely if they do that. And he's just very good with his eyes. He sees things quickly. He comes off a blocks quickly to plug those A gaps.

He's just very good about navigating and protecting those adjacent gaps in past protection. And he does it with the vengeance. And I think that really wears on guys. And if you want to talk about the term body blows and stuff like that and the effect of it, you have to start with Ryan Jensen. He's the poster child of it because you actually see it have a tangible effect on the game, whether he's drawing a penalty, whether he's getting guys literally out of their game by, you know, freaking out, throwing fits, throwing tantrums.

He gets guys to do this and he does it on purpose and he's really good at doing it. But it's, you know, there's been guys that have kind of tried to do that, but they haven't done it this consistently, this long. Plus, he's good in the run game. He's big. He's not an undersized guy who's just tough and scrappy. He's a big dude, 6, 4, 320. He's athletic. That's what people don't remember when he came in to the league from as a left tackle in Division 2, you know, six round pick or whatever he was.

He was a guy who was just athletic and mean. That was all he did at Baltimore. There are worse traits to bank on, though. I know. I mean, that's all he did. He was just a guy who flew around. He was fast, but he was just wild. And over the last few years, he's really become more of a technician.

And you hear him talk at offensive line masterminds, like, you know, like we've gotten the privilege of doing. And like, he really thinks about the game. He's a thinking, you know, man's center, really from the neck up, like, is highly prepared. And, you know, he plays games with guys with his technique. and just all kinds of stuff. I mean, he's just, to me, like, if I was starting an offensive line and I wanted to center, like there would be no question who I would pick.

And he's going to be a free agent this year, which is going to be really interesting. I mean, if there's going to be a team out there that wants to spend, I think it's a smart way to do it. I think similarly to what the Chargers did with Corey Lindley this year, where you say, all right, we got a second year quarterback. Let's go get somebody to be a stabilizing force for the second year quarterback. Like, it's quietly what I want the Bears to do in free agency this office. season is to go get him. I just feel like that kind of guy and their team is getting really expensive, really fast. And it feels like something they might not be able to afford even if they

want to. So it's going to be a really interesting pursuit because I think he's a guy that could really help out a team that's trying to kind of turn a corner on offense. Who is your second team guy? My second team guy was a chief's rookie Creed Humphrey. I had him as my first team guy. Okay. Yeah. I mean, totally fair. I think Creed Humphrey was probably a little bit more impressive than Slater in some ways this year, excuse me, just in terms of sheer consistency, because Slater did have, you know, a couple, you know, obvious losses in some games in past pro, even if it didn't result in necessarily a pressure or a sack. There were some times when guys were able to get across his face and, you know, very rare.

But when I watched Creed Humphrey this year, there was a play against Javonne Hargrave. I remember where he gave up a sack, I believe, or at least some pressure. but like literally I was going through my notes and stuff and watching games. I don't really remember him losing more than one or two like glaring reps and passion protection this season. The efficiency of movement is crazy to watch. It really is. I can't remember a young center who just was so efficient in his movements and never,

ever, ever panicky. And I just think that when you watch him, he can play that way because his leverage is so, so good. I can't remember watching an offensive lineman who was so clearly a former wrestler more than watching Creed Humphrey this year. The efficiency of movement, the functional strength, like his ability to torque guys in a phone booth and never out of control. Like a lot of these guys who want to push people around in the run game, they play with their hair on fire. Like there's a certain frantic energy to the way that they play. His ability to move people without ever playing like that is really cool to watch. Yeah, I think you said it perfectly right there. I mean, I can't really add a whole lot else to that. I think that's really how he wins. He's also very smart. You know, he stepped in, I think, as a red shirt freshman, I want to say at Oklahoma and made all the line calls day one for four years. And that's just what you saw on tape. You know, I studied him last year. He was one of my guys in the draft. You really liked him. This is a big one for you.

Yeah, I mean, you know, I don't want to take too much. credit because I think, you know, most people saw that Crete Humphrey was really good. I mean, you know, it was, you know, I think he won the Remington as well and stuff. Like he was, you know, he was an outstanding center. So, but, but nonetheless, I thought it would translate immediately because of, you know, I'm big on, especially on the interior. Like, if your functional strength is near an elite level, I think that's a really good sign that you're going to translate well as a pro early. And I think that's a huge part of his game. He's, his play strength is just outstanding.

then to be very sharp on top of it, competitive toughness. You know, like you mentioned the wrestling background and his ability to to really get guys leaning and tipped over. And then he does a really outstanding job of using his body to wall guys off. And he's just so. A little tiny help he gives in both the run game and in pass protection, the fact that he can give guys a wing here or there, that he can help people with a little shoulder nudge,

but never be off balance. He's always moving to where he wants to go, but also helping his guys out on the interior. If you watch the pocket that him and Tune can create and that interior space the Mahomes has so often, it's a huge part of what allows their offense to function the way that it does. Yeah, exactly. He's, yeah, he's outstanding, man.

I mean, to have two rookies on these teams is pretty special, but he's every bit deserving as anybody else. So, yeah, I couldn't agree more. I had Kelsey as my second team guy for this reason. He would have been my third. I think the things they ask him to do are so unique at that position. And if you look at the ways that the Eagles have succeeded this year and what their run game looks like, I think his unique and kind of rare abilities in that aspect of the game allows them to function the way that they do.

I think he's asked to do things as a center that no other center is consistently asked to do in the NFL. And the fact that that's what drives the success and what's brought them to the playoffs, essentially, is what they do in that run game. That's why he gets the knot for me. But it's very close with him and Jensen. Yeah, that's fair. I mean, I think Kelsey would, you know, like I said, he was my third center. And for the reasons you mentioned, I mean, he's a unicorn in the run game, you know, with what he can do and everything with his, with his movement and his speed. We've never seen, I haven't seen, you know, in my seven, eight years doing this, a center move like him.

I mean, he does some special things in the run game. And yeah, you said it well. He really kind of spearheads everything they do as an offense. The play against the Chief Vince the Saints where on the move, he managed to like hip check somebody and then pick off a DB in space. They're one of one. There's one guy who can make that play in the league and it's Jason Kelsey. All right.

Right guard first team. We don't have spent a lot of time on this. No, it's Zach Martin. You know, 15 starts. year. He's done it with different right tackles next to him. You know, with Steele and Collins, you know, in and out due to injury and stuff like that, suspension, whatever. I mean, he's just been the same guy. You know, he's the prototype. That's what I like to call him. He's the poster child for what technique should look like at offensive line. I mean, he's a machine.

That's just who Zach Martin is. There's nobody like him who can really recover as well as he can. inside and just stay balanced as well, kind of like that stuff we were talking about with Slater. It's there with Martin at just a really ridiculous level. I mean, I've just never seen anybody so consistent before. And he's just having another year like that. This is truly a first Ballard Hall of Fame offensive guard. And, you know, and he has been since day one. I mean, he's all pro every year in the league, I'm pretty sure.

So, yeah, and it's deserving. He's just, he's phenomenal. There's not a whole else lot to add about Zach Martin that I haven't talked about over the years. One of the best players of his generation playing as well as essentially he ever has. And that's a first, first team all pro player. Would you have as your second team right guard? So I went with Wyatt Teller. You know, it's kind of maybe a boring answer, but it's why I didn't.

I will admit that is because I just like variety. Yeah, it's partially why I had Creed Humphrey as my first team center. I'm a victim to that sometimes. Yeah, I mean, I, you know, I honestly thought about Trace Smith, you know, with the Chiefs. I thought he was worthy of a mention, you know, I thought Shaq Mason did some nice things this year. There might be one or two other guys, but I mean, I had Chris Lindstrom as my second team guy. Okay.

I really liked some of the stuff that he, and again, it's variety. And it's just like, you know, it's, I easily could have put a wild tower on here. I went back and I watched today a couple games from Winstrum. And what he did in week two against the bucks. and just like a set of plays against Vea one play, jump setting JPP on the next play, just anchoring against Sue on the play after that. I just really enjoyed watching him this year.

And I felt like I wanted to celebrate that a little bit. Teller would have been my guy other than that. I just think that he plays at such a high level and he can do things that so few other guys can do. But I just enjoyed watching Glitz from this year more than I thought I was going to. Yeah, I mean, I thought Teller and Betonio were really kind of two key cogs keeping the Browns offense on, you know, on track this season.

You know, 100% of snaps played, hasn't missed a snap the whole year. He's just been, he's been available. And when he's on the field, he's an impact player, you know, just a rare blend of size and power and athletic ability. We didn't see quite as many impact blocks as we did last year, but still just a guy who is very well-rounded and still has that ability as a puller and things like that to really make high-level blocks. And, you know, he's a guy who I think is one of the more physically imposing guards in

the league. Totally. Yeah. And just to be as consistent as he was this year in terms of being available. And, you know, I just think if, you know, they had a lot of injuries, obviously, to both tackle spots. And for Teller to be there week in, week out, I thought really allowed their run game to stay, you know, where it was, you know, for the whole year, him and Betonio. So yeah, I mean, both those guys are

deserving, but, you know, I had to go with Teller at that second team spot. He's my third guy. I literally have also Teller on the third line of my notes here. All right, right tackle, first team. First team for me, you know, this is a guy who missed a couple games, but I had to go with Lane Johnson, you know, Eagles right tackle, you know, 13 starts this year. But man, when he came back from, him, that little hiatus he took, you know, to kind of get his mental health back on track. He has been as good as he's ever been in his career. And that's saying something because this guy's a, you know, perennial all pro player, you know, probably the most talented right tackle in football in terms of athletic ability,

movement skills. And he's also strong as well. He's not a guy you're just going to run through. He has a very good anchor. He has a really kind of a unique up under technique that he gets that creates lift at, you know, versus guys who try to run through him. And he just dissipates that power so quickly by lifting guys up. And he's very long so he can get on guys quickly.

In pass protection, this guy is as good as it gets. But this year might be the best year I've ever seen him as a run blocker. He's just been phenomenal in the run game this year. He's been a huge part of what Philly's done on the ground this season, you know, whether that's cutting off the back side with his athletic ability, getting up to the second level, generating movement. He's just been phenomenal. And then, you know, they've had a lot of uncertainty there at right guard this season as well.

But he's, I think, picked up the slack and really just been, he's been phenomenal, man. You know, if it wasn't for the missed starts, I don't think it would be any question who was first team right tackle. But, you know, because of the, you know, three missed games, I think, you know, you can maybe talk about a guy like Tristan Wirfs, who was my second team guy. but I thought Worf's down the stretch had some inconsistencies with his technique and pass protection that I just haven't seen from Lane Johnson this year. Cam Jordan has got the better of Tristan Worf's this season in both games. And, you know, we saw in 2020, Worf's dominate Cam Jordan, but it's been interesting that Cam Jordan just came back this year and has really given him a lot of trouble.

What do you think it's been? What's been the kind of the thing that's stuck? I think it's his hands. You know, I think he's, he's been a little, like his strike timing, you know, being a little late with his hands, letting Cam Jordan get inside of him. And once Cam Jordan is, you know, he has really good length, really strong hands. And he wants to get inside of you so we can string moves together. He's so good at doing that. And Worf's just hasn't been quite as precise with like his flash technique and just the things that he did last year to kind of keep Cam off balance.

once, Cam was able to, you know, get the beat on him this year. And, you know, I think he had two or three sacks against him this year. And they were legit, like, high quality sacks, beat him for some pressures as well. So, you know, it's, you know, I still think he's a second team all pro right tackle. I think these are the two guys you have to choose from most likely. But to me, I thought Elaine was just more consistent with his technique and stuff like that, especially in pass protection. He just had the three missed games. So I have worse. first team and lane second team just because of the miss games i think watching lane johnson and pass protection this year has been truly special the way that he moves is even at this age i mean at

this many years into his career the fact that the ease of movement still looks like it does there's nobody that plays the position like him and that's been the true for years you know he just is a different sort of specimen than we typically see it right tackle even in a world where you know Mitch was a perennial all pro type talent the ways they go about it or which is so, so different. And it kind of feels like Lane was like a transcendent player at that position for that reason. He was just so different than guys we typically see there.

And Worf's a freak show as well. I mean, his combination of traits is crazy. But Lane's, the way he moves is just very different than we typically see you at that position. Yeah. Yeah, it is.

It definitely looks like more of the elite prototype left tackle playing right. Yep. Which is exactly what he is. I mean, it's the only reason he played right. heckles because Jason Peters exists, you know? Exactly. All right, buddy.

This is always so much fun to do with you. I really appreciate the insight. I know everyone else does. You watch this stuff closer than anybody I know. So it's always good to kind of check what I'm seeing compared to what you're seeing. People please go check out Brandon's work at the Trench Warfare Substack. I cannot recommend it enough. I have been a day one subscriber to what he has been doing over there.

You guys should as well. People always ask, where can I love? learn more about some of these elements of the game. There is no better resource right now, in my opinion, about learning the ins and outs of offensive and defensive line play than the work that Brandon is doing over there. You guys, it'll pay for itself the moment you go and get it. So I highly encourage you to do that. Thanks, Robert.

All right, guys, that's all we got for today. Really enjoyed digging into that with Nate and Brandon. I hope you guys did as well. If you haven't, please go check out the defensive all pro show that should be available in your feed right now. Brandon stuck around. We did the front four players with him, the edge guys and defensive interior players,

and then chat about the back seven with Matt Bowen. Really enjoyed our conversation with him. Please go check that out. Please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. Please subscribe to the athletic. The athletic.com slash football show.

Please go check out the defensive show. After you're done with that, we'll be back tomorrow with Lindsay Jones and Kat Terrell, our Saints writer. please go check that out until then appreciate you guys listening we'll talk to you soon