The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - 2021 NFL Awards: MVP picks, biggest WTF moments, games of the year & more + Saints team visit with Katherine Terrell

Episode Date: January 6, 2022

We're rounding out the 2021 NFL season by handing out some awards of our own, from Most Improved Player to WTF Moment of the Year and more before Lindsay Jones and Robert Mays dive into MVP talk, Coach of the Year, Exec of the Year and all the rest - then Saints writer for The Athletic, Katherine Terrell, stops by to weigh-in on Robert's Sean Payton trade hypothetical, the fans' desire to make a playoff run and more Saints talk.Discount code for The Athletic just in time for PLAYOFFS! theathletic.com/footballshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. Today's Thursday, January 6th. I'm Robert Mays. Fun show for you guys today. Our Saints writer at the Athletic, Cat Terrell is going to be joining us a little bit later. Very excited about that. Before we do that, though, we're going to do some awards.

It's that time of year. It's that time of the season. We did our all pro teams on Wednesday. If you guys have not listened to those, highly encourage you to do that. We had Nate on to do the skill position players on offense. Brandon Thorne to do the offensive wineman. Brandon stuck around for our second episode on defense to do the front four players. And Matt Bowen came to do the back seven guys.

Really good time talking to those guys. It's three hours of celebrating the best players in the NFL from this season. If that interests you guys, if you want to go check that out, we had a good time doing it. I think you might have a good time listening to it. But to celebrate a little bit more, thrill to welcome. My good friend, Lindsay Jones. Lindsay, how you doing? I'm super excited for our award show.

You guys can't see it, but I'm wearing a sequin gown right now, just like it's on a red carpet because it is award season. This is what you do when you have a quarantined kindergartner at home. So she might join us at some point to give her very important takes. She has some very hot quarterback takes. So we'll see if we can get her in the MVP discussion here at some point. But yes, just go and listen to the all pro episodes. I've made it almost all the way through.

listening on two-time speed because it was really, really good stuff. And I know it was a ton to get through, but those were really excellent episodes. I appreciate that. So here's what we're going to do. We're going to do some real awards, some fake awards, and then the big awards. We're going to start with a couple smaller but important ones, kind of like the Oscars, how they do best supporting actress and actor at the beginning. So we're going to do those first, and then we're going to get to some ones that we made up

because we thought they were fun. And then we'll talk about MVP, all of that stuff. All right. let's start with offensive rookie of the year. It feels like a two-man race. I know how I feel about this. I'm curious which side of the line you come down on. And I will say just like last week when we didn't share our answers with each other,

when we were talking about the danger level for all the potential wild card teams, we have not shared with each other our picks here. So there's times when we're probably going to be an agreement. But for me here, it's Jamar Chase. And it's not particularly close that I'm picking Jamar. Chase here. I feel the same way. I know Mack Jones has provided more value to the Patriots than Jamar Chase has provided to the Bengals by virtue of being a quarterback, but it's not the most valuable rookie. It's the offensive rookie of the year. And if you look at the gap between Jamar Chase and the other

rookies at his position, if you look at where Jamar Chase fits in the hierarchy of players at the position within the NFL, he was on my second team, all pro team yesterday. Yesterday when we were talking about wide receivers. He's been one of the five or six best wide receivers, maybe in the entire league. And that's why I feel like he deserves this. I mean, the value question aside, I just think where he has fallen in regard to his peers at the position, the space he's taken up this season, how exciting he's been, everything. I mean, the fact that he's been one of the best players at his position in the league as a rookie, that's why he gets it for me. Even though Mac Jones has been very good and very important to what the Patriots have done. And I think part

of the conversation here is, you know, look, Mac, this often is just a quarterback award, just like the MVP is a quarterback award. That didn't always used to be the case, right? Yeah, it's been over the last few years that it's really, really, really turned that way. And part of that is we've had some really good rookie quarterbacks over the last few years. I mean, 10 years ago, it was a lot harder for a rookie quarterback to come in and make a major impact, the way that a guy like Justin Herbert did last year, those sorts of situations.

But I think you can argue that Chase was as valuable to the Bengals as just about any other rookie was to his team at any position. including Mac Jones, who obviously plays the position where he has the ball in his hands every time. Not a knock on Mac Jones. Patriots fans don't come at me. He's been great. He has by far exceeded every single expectation that anybody had for them. And, you know, spoiler alert, I'm going to get to some other Patriots related stuff along the way here.

But I just think Jamar Chase has, is on, what he's doing is historic. He's set rookie receiving records in 16 games. This isn't one of those weird 17 games. He needed extra time. He outperformed what Justin Jefferson did. Last season, he's in the conversation with some of the best receiving seasons we've ever seen. I mean, when his name is mentioned with Randy Moss and those kind of guys in terms of what he's doing on deep balls and those sorts of things, that's legit. So for me, it's not even close.

And then when he has a game like he did last week in a huge situation for them, it just, it clinched it. It's an exclamation point. That's what it is. Yeah, absolutely. And he might not play this week. Joe Burroughs not going to play this week. We don't know exactly how many of the starters are going to play for the Bengals. But yeah, I mean, he could have zero catches for zero yards this week and it's still done for me.

All right? Defense a rookie of the year. I don't think this is close, right? It's Mike a person. It's not even a conversation to me. Yeah. I mean, there's a couple of the other guys. I mean, the other guys who you would talk about potentially Odafe Oway with the Ravens, Patrick Sartan, the second with the Broncos.

But I mean, Parsons. persons is in the defensive player the year conversation. So he's been so clearly above and beyond every other defensive rookie. Statistically, he is there. But it's more so just his impact. I mean, he hasn't done this single-handedly, but he has helped transform the Cowboys' defense from one of the units that we had the biggest questions about heading into the season to one of the biggest assets for any playoff team this year.

They're second. Give you away on defense. Second. Yeah. I mean, Dan Quinn deserves a lot of credit. You know, they're kind of surprising performances. So they've got some outside of, excuse me, from some of their other pass rushers has been nice. But Parsons, just everything that they're able to do with him, the way that they can make him a pass rusher if they need to be, the way that he is in coverage, just his flexibility, his versatility, the way that he's held up really well for 15 or 16 games. He's not going to play this week.

He just got added to the COVID list. So his stats are his stats at this point. But I expect that he's going to be a player that we're talking a ton about into January and into the playoffs. One of one. I mean, people use that term. He is truly one of one. And the way that they use him and the impact that he's had on the game to be able to play linebacker functionally the way that he has, make some of the plays he has in coverage, just the recovery speed, the overall physical ability.

We talked about it with Matt Bowen yesterday, along with being on a person at basis, arguably the most impactful, efficient edge rusher in the entire league. It's insane. I mean, it's just absolutely insane. He is already one of the coolest, most talented, unique players in the NFL as a rookie. Like, he runs away with this to me. The Cowboys are second and weighted defensive TVA, by the way. They are number one in regular, in just defensive TVA for the entire season, which is so far from what we would have expected, which we're going to get to right now.

Assistant coach of the year. Who do you have? Okay. So I said I was going to talk about the Patriots before. and I have Josh McDaniels, offensive coordinator from the Patriots, as my assistant coach of the year. Sounds like you're going to go a different direction here.

I am. The reason I'm going McDaniels is because of just what he's been able to do to adapt their offense for Mack Jones. They had an almost entirely new group of skill position players this year. Bill Belichick went out and spent a gazillion dollars to bring in new wide receivers, new tight ends. They pick a rookie quarterback. You get him ready.

And game after game, they're putting Mac Jones in the right situations. I think, and we talked about this a lot on the show back in October, early November, that they were probably too conservative with Mac Jones at times, and we wanted them to open it up. And it was like we were begging Josh McDaniels to just, you know, let Mac Jones take more shots, let him be a little bit more aggressive. And they just brought him along at this really nice pace.

There was a ton of discussion, obviously after that Bill's game in the disgusting weather about, oh, they don't trust him, they won't let him throw. I was a really good example of like knowing what your team needed at the right in the right spot. And look, it hasn't been perfect. Mac Jones hasn't been perfect. But Josh McDaniels deserves so much credit for the way that he's been able to just consistently evolve who he is as a play caller, what his scheme looks like and really fit his offense to his personnel. And that was just really, really apparent this year to me. It's a great answer.

Patriots are fit. It is wrong, is what you're going to say. No, no, no, no. It's a great answer. The Patriots are fifth and weighted offensive DVOA with a rookie quarterback, with a whole new group of skill position players without like a true number one skill position player. I think Damien Harris is a really good back. Their offensive line is obviously a great group as they've settled in and gotten healthy.

I think they've really coalesced in a fun way. But they don't have that true number one guy. And I think that's going to hold them back. I think that's part of why their ceiling is a little bit depressed in terms of their playoff aspirations. But when you look at the body of work over the course of the year, it's been a remarkable job. I mean, I know the history is dicey, right? Not only what it looked like in Denver, but how it all transpired with the Colts.

I'm very interested what another opportunity would look like for Josh McDaniels. Because when you're looking at all the different guys that could be getting jobs and all the different places that we look for head coaches, it just feels like it'd be worth gambling on him and seeing if you can get it right this time. because what he's done consistently over the last however many years since he returned to New England, it really does feel like it's justified. Yeah, I mean, I said, look, I covered, I was the Denver Broncos beat writer at the post, the Denver Post during the Josh McDaniels time. So the fact that I'm out here praising Josh McDaniels, if you've followed my work for a long time, you'll know that that is notable here because anytime we have the Josh McDaniels as a future

head coach candidate, you circle back. But it was a long time ago. He was really young. And his biggest downfall there was he was really like the first of the Bill Belichick guys off the Belichick tree who tried to exactly be Bill. He really tried to go exactly in the Bill Belichick mode. And that's just not who he is. They are very different personality-wise. He was way too young to try to act like that.

He treated players very poorly. There was a lot of stuff about the way that he built the roster, ran that roster, cuts that he made, guys that he brought in. it just didn't work for a lot of reasons. But there's no doubt that he's a brilliant head coach. And I think he's learned a lot about probably himself and how you run an organization and what it takes to kind of be the face of that. And most importantly, what it takes to deal with every single guy in the locker room. I mean, his biggest downfall was the way that he interacted with people throughout the building, among other things. I mean, there was a videotaping scandal. They lost a lot of games. He made some really poor personnel decisions. But, you know, in the right of the right. situation, but I'd be curious, right? I mean, the Jaguars, they need an offensive-minded head coach, a guy to really, you know, come in and take over the situation with a young quarterback. We'll see what other jobs are open. Chicago, they could really use an offensive-minded guy. I wouldn't be opposed to it. I really wouldn't be. It'll be really interesting to watch. When you look at the way this sport is all about, I'm thinking about how I'm going to say this,

five, four, three, two, one. When you think about the important. The important. It's a lot of the important. of creating a space on offense that incubates your young talent and develops players, especially at the quarterback position. It has an outsized role in your success or failure over a long stretch of time in the NFL. And watching what Mack Jones has done and watching what they've consistently done with players in that system within that offense, what it asks of their quarterback. I just think that it's a really good bet when you're trying to develop quarterbacks when you're trying to develop young offensive talent. And that's why I think it's a worthwhile gamble for a team like Chicago or a team in a similar situation that has a young quarterback that they're trying to bring

along. So I'm also going with a former head coach, and that's Dan Quinn. I just think that the Cowboys defense being the best defense in the league, arguably, is so far removed from our expectations coming into the year. And I know they have outsized talent, right? When you have Demarcus Lawrence and Micah Parsons, and Randy Gregory and Trayvon Diggs is picking off passes left and right. That helps. They have a lot of ability on that side of the ball. But I just think what he has done in kind of changing his stripes defensively, the amount of man coverage they played,

how aggressive they've been with certain pressure packages, how they've deployed Micah Parsons, the way they've used certain personnel like J-Ron curse. I just think that they've done such a good job of channeling the talent that they have defensively. This is a defense we thought maybe if they could be average, the Cowboys could be a contender. And they are arguably the scariest defense in the entire NFL. And I think that you could say they have great players.

You can say that drives it. And I wouldn't disagree. But there are a lot of coaches who get in the way of good players and they screw up the talent that they have. And the Cowboys have not done that. And I think Dan Quinn's evolution, aggressiveness, and just the way he's been able to highlight and spotlight those guys, that's why he has it for me. Well, I'm going to steal a bit from our friend Bill Barnwell, who did a show recently where they apologized.

He and Meena Kimes actually apologized for their bad takes earlier in the year. And neither of us were excited about the Dan Quinn hire. No, at all. We were not. I mean, and look, and I think that was warranted at the time, given the way that his Falcons teams had struggled, particularly defensively, he took over. play calling of that team. And it just felt kind of it wasn't like a super inspired pick, especially for a guy like Mike McCarthy who was also kind of a retread coach who wasn't doing

a lot of stuff that was particularly inspiring across his team. But it was this year has just been this reminder that of why kind of there was that Dan Quinn Magic when he first got to Atlanta and why he was such a good coordinator in Seattle. It's because he knows how to really relate to his players. He knows. how to get the most out of them. And, you know, like, when he was a coordinator in Seattle, that was a tough room. I mean, he had a lot of really interesting personalities that he had to deal with. When his first Atlanta teams, look, they were not great on defense even in 2016,

that they went to the Super Bowl. They kind of just survived on defense, but he was great at figuring out, or looking at his players and saying, okay, you might be a cornerback now, but I need you to be a safety. Or you might be a linebacker now, but I need you to play a linebacker now. but I need you to play a little bit more safety. And they figure out, he figures out ways to really accentuate what his players do best. And he's tapped into some of these young guys. And him and Micah Parsons seem to have a really close and really, like, impactful relationship.

And he's been great. I'm very curious to see if he's going to get another head coaching job. And when that happens, his name has come up a lot in Denver. Like there's a lot, there's a large portion of Denver Broncos Media Twitter, who seems really infatuated with Dan Quinn, which I don't think you go from big fan Gio to Dan Quinn. I don't think that's the change that you make. There's a bigger big people who really wanted to happen for some reason.

But I don't know. Maybe he's a guy and he needs a couple more years as a coordinator until he gets back in. Or maybe he's the guy who just loves being a coordinator. And maybe this is just the best place for him because he seems like he's having a great time. I mean, he just seems like. He's such a good teacher. Yes. It really does feel like this is a great job for him.

I mean, I could understand wanting the head coaching job again. But I don't know. I'd love to talk to him about it. I mean, I've always appreciated Dan Quinn. I think he's a very thoughtful person. He's just somebody that I think is a really good presence for a team like that in the role that he's in right now. All right. A couple others that I wanted to at least mention.

Matt Eberfluse in Indianapolis. This is another top 10-ish defense. Their fourth and weighted defensive DVOA. They're seventh and overall defensive DVOA. They don't have the best players there. No pass rush to speak of outside of DeForest Buckner. They've had some injuries in the secondary. They lose Julian Blackman.

They've got guys like Isaiah Rogers playing well. corner. I just think that their ability to consistently be good defensively, despite not having like hyper elite talent at positions we typically think you need hyper elite talent, that's really impressive to me. Another guy I think I have to mention is Vance Joseph. I mean, this is another top 10 defense for the Cardinals this year. And they also don't have like a ton of game breaking players on that side of the ball. They have young players in a lot of positions. I think that the way they've been able to really sustain success this year without high-level cornerback play, JJ Wach going down.

I just think his job that he's done over the last couple seasons is pretty impressive. And the last guy is Shane Bowen, the defense coordinator for the Titans. I mean, this group has kept them alive as they've had to deal with all of the offensive injuries, inconsistencies. I did not expect, similar to Dallas, I did not expect to enjoy watching and be this impressed by the Titans defense this year. And I think that's a testament to what their coaching staff has done. And we'll get to that a little bit more later on here. All right, our next made up one here, most improved player. We don't have this in the NFL. It exists in the NBA. And every time I've

ever had to do an award segment on a podcast or writing it, pretty much since I started doing this, I've always wanted to include it because I think it's a fun award. Who is your most improved player in the NFL this season? All right. So we're going to kind of stick of the theme here and stick with the Cowboys defense. And I'm picking Trayvon Diggs, the cornerback, second year cornerback from Dallas, three interceptions as a rookie, 11 interceptions so far in his second year.

Yes, he gives up a lot of yards as well. But, I mean, he has turned into one of the best cornerbacks, a complete ballhawk, and along with Michael Parsons has transformed that Cowboys defense. So he was my pick. The other guy's name who I have on there, and I'm not sure if he can count is Robert Quinn. who went from having two sacks.

Okay. Because he's been an elite player before. Best bounce back season possibly you could give for Robert Quinn. He's not like a comeback player the year candidate, but like an improvement from 2020 to 2021. I mean, he went from two sacks last year to setting the Bears franchise sack record this season. But for a guy who has been kind of in that elite past rush or conversation before, I wasn't

sure if, I wasn't sure if he counted. No, that I don't think that counts. We could have a bounce back player next year. and what's filed that away. Mine is Devonra Campbell, which is kind of strange for a guy at age 28, right? But if you look at it, I mean, this is somebody who signed a one-year,

$2 million contract with the Packers in June. He was available in June for $2 million. And now justifiably, he's in the all-pro conversation at that position. What he has done this year and the player that he's been, we talked about it with Matt Bowen a little bit yesterday, it really does feel like it's all come together for him. I mean, this is a guy that ran like a 4-4-ish 40 at the combine.

And with his size and frame, he always had the physical ability. And now he seems to really have put it together. He's been a fun player to watch this year. And if you think about where he was last season, the fact that he's bounced around a little bit, and now he's playing at this level on a $2 million deal. He's taken to me the biggest jump of any player from last year to this year. Well, he's interesting because he's another Dan can. Campbell guy. I mean, he was a rookie on that 2016 Falcons team where they were just kind of trying to figure out, okay, what's your position? He was supposed to be KJ. Wright. He was supposed to be K.J. Wright. That was the idea, right? He was this long off ball linebacker in the KJ. Wright mold. And he and Dion Jones were drafted in the same year. I mean, that 2016 Falcons defense was really fun and young and fast. It never really all came together down the stretch. It never got better really than it was that year. But you could see the vision for it. And you could see the excitement.

man about a player with his traits. And now, again, he's put it all together in a way that's really fun to watch. All right. Breakout player. So I did not have Jamar Chase as eligible for this because I didn't want to talk about him again. It's probably Jamar Chase in my mind. But that's not where I went with it. Who was yours?

Yeah, here. You go first. I want to hear your pick first. To me, it's a tie between Crete Humphrey and Rishant Slater. I think that both of those guys being all pro-level players, Creed Humphrey is the chief center. Rishon Slater is the. Charters left tackle. I'm trying to be better about this. Devadre Campbell plays for the Packers.

Their middle-eyebacker. Creed Humphrey has been one of the best centers in football this season. We talked about it a lot with Brandon Thorne on the All-Pro podcast yesterday. That's remarkable. To come in and play that position at such a high level as a rookie. And the same with Rishon Slater. You know, Rishon Slater looks like a 10-year veteran playing left tackle right now. And to have the success he's had without a Tyron Smith, Trent Williams, Joe Thomas, sort of physical profile and background and just how technically sound he has to be

to be this good as a left tackle, I just think is so, so impressive for a young player. So those two guys in their first year, they got it for me. All right. So I'm going to, I'm going to go with a defensive player. And I'm going to go with AJ Terrell,

the Falcons. Ooh, that's a good one. That's a good one. Who, look, we haven't talked about the Falcons much at all on this podcast. and somehow they basically were just now eliminated from the postseason last week. But he's been really good. And he was a fine player last year.

But I don't think anybody watched him as a rookie in 2020 and was like, that dude's an all pro. That's a guy who I want to build my defense around. And he's been the best part of that Balkan's defense this year. And he's been really good. And they have a foundational piece now that they can really work with now on the outside. It's been a while since they've had that kind of cornerback. That's absolutely right.

And I think it's really interesting. You talk about foundational piece and what they can work with. I mean, this team is starting over. They're trying to figure out who those guys are. And to have somebody like that in year two at 24 years old at such an important position is absolutely massive. And guess what? You could throw somebody else from that team on this list as well. Kyle Pitts is probably in that conversation.

Sure. So to have a Kyle Pitts, an AJ Terrell. I mean, this team has a long way to go in terms of upgrading its personnel, but there are worst places to start with guys like that on each side of the ball. So, you know, obviously a strange season for Atlanta. What happens with Matt Ryan is really interesting. Looking at their cap right now, it's so weird. Matt Ryan has a $49 million cap hit next year.

Grady Jared's at $24 million. Jake Matthews is at $24 million. Deon Jones is at $20 million. And then Calvin Ridley. And that's really it. I mean, they don't really have anybody else, but they have four guys make it at least $20 million and a quarterback set to make $49 million. So I don't know what it's going to look like for Terry Fond.

No, listen, they have $12 million in cap space. This is currently goes. That's a lot better than it's been in the last 12 months or so. So we'll see. You know, a pretty interesting offseason in Atlanta and having guys like AJ Terrell and Kyle Pitts in your back pocket, there are worse places to be. All right. Your appointment viewing player of the year.

The guy that you just felt like you were keyed in. to you all the time that you, when, as soon as his game came on, you busted out the popcorn, settled on to the couch. It's like, all right, I am locked in right now. I think we might have the same guy here. I'm got, I want to see. But it's Justin Herbert. Yeah. For me. It's my just, my just, my is just. Right. And part of this is what I put this category on our list. It's because I wanted to talk about Justin Herbert on the show. And he wasn't going to win any of the other categories. He's not my MVP. He wasn't the offensive player the year. But he was the guy that you just had to watch him every single time that he was playing. And yes, there were a couple

rough games here and there. You know, the Texans game probably is the most recent example of that. But there isn't really anybody outside of Patrick Mahomes who makes you go, oh my God, I can't believe he just did that on a more regular basis than Justin Herbert. And it would be really fun if we get to see Herbert and Mahomes playing each other in the wild card game. There's no other answer for me. I mean, I've loved what Joe Burrow has done this year. I've been pleasantly wrong about Joe Burrow and his ceiling as an NFL quarterback. I'm happy to be wrong. But to me, Justin Herbert is the most exciting young player in the week. Anything is on the table, any throw. I've said this in the past, but this year, when they do those half boots off play action and he sets up as kind of like a moved

pocket for kind of a launch throw, that to me is one of the most exciting three second spans football right now is watching him set up in that half boot action to really let one rip. And he does that a lot. There's so many throws he's made this year that are just jaw-dropping type plays that are once in a million type throws. And that is the type of ability that he has. And combine that with somebody who does the little things well. I mean, the percentage of negative plays from him this year in terms of interceptions

and sacks for somebody with that level of physical ability. how refined he already is at the position. He's the splashiest quarterback in the league, maybe outside of Patrick Mahomes right now, and he's detailed. Like, that combination is absolutely crazy at this stage of his development. And I'm fine admitting it.

Like, I know that it's kind of a joke at this point, like how much I love watching Justin Herbert, but I don't care. Like, that's how fun he is to watch. I cannot wait to watch him play football for the next 10 years. It was so funny.

I wrote about him, before the season. And I talked to Joe Lombardi for a while for it. I talked to Brandon Staley a couple different times. And just the tone in Brandon Staley's voice when I was asking him about Justin Herbert. And he was telling me that when you can make certain throws outside of the numbers from the opposite hash with ease, it changes everything about a defense. It changes everything that a defense can think about and do. And that is the coolest part of watching him is that what is available to him is literally anything. Any throw is on the table for him. And he can reset and make throws off platform. I mean, the fact that you have this 6-6 guy who also has a twitchiness to him,

it's not just arm strength, it's creativity and movement. And there's really nobody like him in terms of the bundle of ability that he has. And I cannot wait to watch this guy for the next like 10 or 15 years. I truly cannot. Yeah, a couple weeks ago, I think it was right after that Thursday night Chiefs game. Ryan Harris, who's a former Broncos offensive lineman who now is doing Westwood on radio, he was the color commentator for that game. I talked to him the next day. And he told me in unequivocal terms, he said that Justin Herbert is the best

quarterback he's ever seen live. And I was like, that's incredible. Like that's a bold. Did he play with Peyton Manning? Yeah, he played with, he played with 2015 Peyton Manning. Okay. So it was not, he didn't say he was the smartest or, you know, the greatest of all time. But just like in terms of like an oh my God watching this guy. He also played with

Ben Rathesberger, you know, and he's called a lot of Chiefs games and stuff. So he's seen a lot of Patrick Mahomes. Obviously, he lives in AFC West Country. But I was like when somebody who studies as much football as he does said something like that, I was like, yep, I'm with you. The holy shit factor is just so high. Like the holy shit factor with Justin Herbert is just off the charts. And I know that's not the most important thing, but in this category it is. The Holy shit factor has to be high for me. And his is about as high as you can turn that dial up. Yeah.

And the thing with this category is the like the guy that goes viral on Sunday afternoons where, you know, not everybody is watching the, you know, the, the chiefs raiders random Sunday afternoon game. They will be this week. But whatever the AFC West game is, they might not be watching in that second window. But all of a sudden it starts popping up in your Twitter feed because people are grabbing it. You're seeing the dots. You're seeing the like, oh my God, the moon shot. A lot of times it's you at name.

Nate who are doing it, doing the freaking out. But it's just, it's really fun. And that stadium that he plays in looks like you're living in a video game and he's a video game player. So yeah, this was an easy choice for me. And I'm glad we both got to indulge yourselves here in a little bit for a couple of minutes. So you mentioned this matchup a second ago. And I'm wondering if it's going to come up again.

What was your game of the year in 2021? So that was on my list. So that Thursday night, Chiefs Chargers game. in L.A. goes to overtime. It was the Travis Kelsey walk-up game. That was definitely up there. I have a little bit of a trend here, though. So I've got three on my list.

I have a couple as well. So the Chiefs Chargers Thursday night game. And honestly, the first Chiefs Chargers game back in early September. Yeah, that's another good game. The Chargers went into Kansas City and it was kind of like, oh, wow, this season is going to go a little bit differently than we thought it was going to go game. The Chief Spengles game from last week, I think there's a little bit of recency bias there. But that game was a thrilling game.

It was amazing. They're throwing fireballs at each other. Those are both are on my list. The last minute or so made me want to like throw my monitor out the window because it was, you know, it was like the last minute of a college basketball game where you're just like, something just happened here at the end. And then my other game of the year that I still have on there is another Chargers game, Chargers Browns.

Chargers 47, Browns 42 from back in October. Ooh, that's another really good one. So both those, the first two that you mentioned are on my list. Chargers Browns is another really good one. The first Monday night game of the year between the Raiders and the Ravens and the Raiders was an incredible game. We forgot about that because it was in week one,

but that game was amazing. A game that happened at noon that most people will likely forget, the Packers Vikings game, the first one, was an awesome game. Those two offenses were just trading haymakers, the entire game. I'm going to say it was Chiefs Chargers, though,

for this reason. it happened on a national stage. Like the fact that the entire football watching world was tuned into it, the way that it ended with that Travis Kelsey play, the fact that it set off an entire week-long referendum on the idea of going for it on Fort Down. I just feel like that game is taking up the biggest space when we think about football games from 2021. And I think it helps for it to be a national game, right? Like if that 55 to 51 Rams Chiefs game doesn't happen on Monday,

night, is it the same? And I kind of feel that way about the Chief Spangles game from last week. Like, yeah, it was a great game. It happened at noon for some reason. So that's why I'm going to give the slight edge to the Chiefs Chargers game. And because I don't think I mentioned any NFC teams, I'll say the Bucks Bills game from about a month ago was really, really, really good too. That was another walkoff. If that wasn't such a big lead and comeback, then it would probably be higher on my list. I like the back and forth games. I love the games that it feels like every single. moment, a different team has the advantage. So those are mine for me. All right. Your WTF moment of the year. Okay. So there's so many options. There's so many options here. But I think it was the Aaron Rogers,

Pat McAfee. Who's Pat McAfee? My daughter has joined us on the podcast right now. She wants to know who Pat McAfee is. But so it was that day. So Aaron Rogers test positive for coaches. for COVID, we realized pretty quickly that he's unvaccinated. We don't hear much from him. And then he does his weekly appearance on the Pat McAfee show, where we learned that not only is he unvaccinated, he's also like your crazy uncle anti-vaxxer. And that was just like the ultimate moment where we were all on Twitter together going, oh my God, what is happening?

Like am I living on another planet right now? The addendum to that, it was the Zoom press conference where he, showed us all his toes. Yeah. But that was the, that, that's it for me. I mean, I guess the honorable mention is like everything that happened with Urban Meyer. So I did not have the Aaron Roger stuff. I probably should have because that's probably more football, football specific.

That Pad McAfee moment is definitely up there. Mine was not football specific because mine is Urban Meyer not taking the plane home. Like hearing that he did not take the team plane home, that was the moment this year. I was like, what the F? I would swear, but your daughter's there. what the F is going on right now. I think men didn't take the team plane home. So that is definitely up there for me.

Late hard charging comeback is the Joe Judge press conference from last week. I tried to get in under the wire. Definitely wanted to make his case as we got down here toward the end of the season. But I think the Aaron Rogers Pat McAfee thing is definitely up there. I remember where I was when that was happening. It was a Friday, I want to say. right? I think it was a Friday based on the timing of it. Yeah, they had to move it because normally he goes Tuesday and they pushed it.

I think it was on a Friday because that's the day I run my errands and I was going to drop off my dry cleaning. Like I vividly remember this and I got back in my car and I was looking at my phone and that's when it was happening. And I was just seeing the entire sea of responses come down as he was talking. So it's definitely up there. I can't believe I didn't have that on my list. And our producer, I will say our producer, Kent, has just chimed in with the other honorable mention, which is Antonio Brown stripping off his uniform and storming off of the field. Certainly up there.

Certainly up there. All right. Let's get to the real awards now. Let's get to the rest of them. Offensive player of the year. Who do you got? I'm going Cooper Cup. Totally fair.

He spent a lot of time on the show a couple weeks ago making an MVP case for Cooper Cup versus Jonathan Taylor. And I'm going to go Cooper Cup for this reason. And this is not a slight at Jonathan Taylor, who is, freaking awesome and will be the first team running back, all pro running back this year. He deserves every single accolade he's gotten. I'm voting for Cooper Cup because I think it is more rare for a receiver to do what Cooper Cup has done on a week in and week out basis than it is for a running back to have the type of dominant performance that Jonathan Taylor has. Interesting. Say more about that. I think we see these kind of breakout running back seasons more often. And I think it's a lot easier to

take a single receiver out of a game. You know, there's a lot more receiving options. You know, and look, Cooper Cup was awesome before Robert Woods got hurt. He's been awesome after Robert Woods got hurt. They have some other weapons on that team. You know, you bring in Odell Beckham and he is still like the guy. And I just think to have that type of performance and the impact on the offense, the way that he is working with Sean McVeigh to like draw plays to figure out exactly what he wants to run, what they should be doing in the red zone. You know, I just think he is on this completely other level right now that, you know, he's clearly an all pro receiver to me, but just the type of week and in week out

dominant performance that he's having, it's just really hard to see that out of a receiver. Jamar Chase has been awesome. Justin Jefferson has been awesome. Devante Adams is consistently really awesome. I don't know how many more times I can say the word awesome. But I just think we're seeing something that's historic out of Cooper Cup, you know, a type of season, a receiving season that we'll be talking about for a really long time. I'm totally fine with that. I think that he has had a really special year and what he's meant to that offense is remarkable.

I'm still going with Jonathan Taylor. And again, this is not a value conversation, right? It's offensive player of the year. To me, it's who's been the most outstanding offensive player. I kind of eliminate quarterbacks from this conversation. I honestly think we just should. I think that we should have a different category for the most outstanding offense players, not a quarterback.

If you just look at some of the numbers, Jonathan Taylor has created three times as much EPA as any other running back in the NFL this year, three times as much, right? He's gotten a first down on 32.8% of his carries. The only players in the league with more than 100 carries who have topped that number are all quarterbacks. Josh Allen, Jalen, Hertz, Lamar Jackson. No other running back is above 28%. All right?

his rushing success rate is the third highest in the NFL among players with at least 150 carries. The only two guys who are better are A.J. Dillon and Leonard Fournette play with Aaron Rogers and Tom Brady. When you're thinking about what you need to do against those offenses, that is your first question. The Colts know that teams are trying to stop Jonathan Taylor. That is what they are trying to do. And then eight count in the box thing, everything else. You can look at some of those numbers. He's not at the top of the NFL. He's actually a little. bit lower than you might suspect, but that's also just the structure of the Colts offense, you know, the way they play with box counts, all that kind of stuff. I think that,

and you look at the offensive line quality this year, the Colts offensive line is, you know, it's renowned. We talk about it. Quentin Nelson's a superstar. It has not been that group whole season. Ryan Kelly's missed some time for personal reasons lately. Quentin Nelson has been hurt at times this season. He's also been, he's played hurt. You know, he has not been the same dominant player that we're used to. They've had guys filtering in out of the lineup, and it hasn't mattered. His rushing yards per attempt over expectation is the highest in the entire NFL. Just so many things that you look at, I feel like relative to his peers at the position,

I think that Jonathan Taylor has been the most outstanding offensive player in the league this year. The other guy I would throw in here that's not going to win it, but I think should be in the conversation for that exact reason, is Trent Williams. There's no way that Trent Williams, is going to win this award. But if I were listing them out, he would be in my top three and maybe even higher up there because of how dominant he has been at that spot.

It'll never happen, but I think that it's worth mentioning. And I think that's fair. I don't have anybody else in that group. And I think with Taylor, like what would have happened if they would have leaned on to him more heavily early in those first couple weeks of the season? I think it's okay, though, because I think that you don't want to do that necessarily. It's a long year. you're trying to figure out what you are on offense

Eric Fisher wasn't even playing at that point I don't I feel like what they've done and kind of bringing his workload along as they've needed to I'm totally fine with that also the thing I didn't mention this team is a top 10 offense by DVOA that's because of their running game like their running game is so central to their success and he is such a part

and such a dominant factor in that running game success in a way that running backs aren't always right like so many other moving pieces often dictated that. But I think that he has kind of transcended the help he gets as a running back in that offense more than we typically see from guys at that position. Yeah, I guess I'm just at this point now with the AFC South and with the Titans and the Colts that I just, I wish we would have seen like this version of the Colts earlier. And I hate that the schedule set up that the Titans and Colts played each other, you know, two times within the first basically month of the season.

Yeah, I don't like that at all. I didn't, I didn't love that the way that it worked out because, look, the cults had so much that they were working against with all of their COVID issues that they had. And, you know, Carson Wentz's foot injury and not being able to practice through all of training camp. And, you know, it just took them a while to figure out exactly what their offensive identity was going to look like. I think that's what it was, right? I mean, they just, without Carson Wentz practicing, they really had to use that first month of the season to figure out who the hell they were. And they've had to do that really every single year because they have a new quarterback every single year. I mean, it's just crazy what that's looked like. But I just

think that he's been so good. I think Trent Williams does deserve mention. All right, defensive player of the year. It's T.J. Watt, and I think he ran away with this, this week. I mean, four socks on Monday night football, you know, moved him to 21 and a half sacks for this year. And, you know, I think he pulled away from the other guys in this conversation. And the other guys, I think, in there, right? It's Miles Garrett. It's Micah Parsons. It's Aaron Donald, who isn't having the type of statistical season that sometimes he has had previously when he's won this award,

but I think you could make a very solid argument that he is still the best pure football player of any position that plays this entire sport. But TJ Watt just in terms of the sack numbers are obviously there, and that's the first thing that people are going to look at. But it's just as overall impact on that Steelers defense and how many, look, they were not a great team this year,

but they would have been a really bad team without T.J. Watt. And I want to know if he gets the single season sack record this week. If he's able to get there, can we count it because he's only played in 14 games so far? So he technically would have gotten it playing in 15 games. Or can we? There was a COVID game that he was out. He also had a lot of injuries that he played through this year. I'd be comfortable having that conversation.

I'd be okay having that conversation. I mean, there's been an asterisk on that word forever or an asterisk on that record forever because of the way that Michael Strayhan got it with Brett Farr of turtling to let it happen. All right. I'm totally fine with T.J. Watt getting it. I think that he's been fantastic this year.

I think that if you look at those sack numbers and just what he's been as a past rush, I totally get that. I'm giving it to Aaron Donald. Aaron Donald is the best football player in the world. The galaxy. Aaron Donald is second in the NFL in pressures to Max Crosby, according to PFF.

Second. He's a defensive tackle, okay? He's having a down year compared to what we typically expect from Aaron Donald, maybe in like traditional stat categories. But if you look at the numbers right now, he has 12 and a half sacks. I mean, Aaron Donald getting 12 and a half sacks, that would be the best season most interior defensive linemen have ever had. Again, he has 12 and a half sacks and 18 tackles for loss. He has 33 run stops on the season, which is one of the highest marks in the entire league by anybody at any position. he is still the best player on defense in the NFL.

He is the most impactful defensive player in the league down to down. And I kind of want to sit here and trumpet this just to make sure that we don't get bored and don't get numb to how great he is. Because if Aaron Donald is healthy, he should be the defensive player of the year every single year that he's playing like this. I truly believe that. I just think that that's how great he is. Seth Walter from ESPN puts this out consistently over the course of the year. think it's a really good way to think about it, whatever you think of past rush win rate, whatever.

But if you look at the pass rush win rate and double team rate for players at those positions, edge and defensive tackle, you can barely see Aaron Donald on the chart. And that is where he is. He exists in his own chart. He exists in his own stratosphere. He is in a separate category from every other player on the field, especially on defense. And that's why I just think he deserves it. It kind of goes against my typical thoughts.

I enjoy the story of the season type thing. And I think that the narratives do matter. And I like to pay attention to them at some points. And I think that's why if you look at T.J. Watt and what he's done this year, I can understand it. But I think that Aaron Donald's greatness is so undeniable that I have to give it to him. I just feel like he deserves it. It's so hard because he's kind of in that territory that Bill Belichick is for the coach of the year award.

That's exactly right. Yeah. where like Bill Belichick should legitimately win the coach of the year award almost every season. He has a really good case to win it this year. He's not going to, but he has a really good case most years. But when you are that much better than everybody else, year after year after year, you kind of get overlooked. And the bar just becomes really high. I mean, I think that's going to happen for Patrick Mahomes to try to win future MVP awards because you're always going to be compared to your greatest season.

And, you know, the expectations are that to win it again, you have to be as great. or greater than you were at your peak. And when you're just still being like really, really consistently great and better than everybody else. He's almost played a thousand snaps as a defensive tackle. He's played 975 snaps this year. He's on the field for like 90% of their snaps. You should not be able to be this good and play that often at that position.

It's crazy. He's an honorable mention for the Justin Herbert Award, too, where at least once a game, you'll get that clip that pops up where you're like, oh shit, he just destroyed that game or whatever. It was the first snap of that Monday night football game against the Cardinals where he just like picked up Max Garcia and threw him into Kyler Murray. And you're like, oh, yes, this is going to be an Aaron Donald game.

And sure enough, it was from start to finish. But he has those games routinely. And yeah, if you're ever at a Rans game, do yourself a favor. Bring binoculars. Look away from the Oculus video board and just train your binoculars on Aaron Donald and every defensive snap and you won't. you won't regret it. God, bring him binoculars to the game.

It's the most football writer thing you've ever said on this show. All right. Comeback player of the year. Who do you got? I got Joe Burrow. Same. I think it's kind of cut in dry. It's really,

it's like hard. It's a little hard to vote against Dak Prescott, given how devastating Dax injury was there. But given what Burrow went through as a rookie, how many times he's been sacked and just how good he's been. Say if the, you know, if the Bengals were a five-win team right now or something.

and Joe Burrow was still, you know, had played decently well. I don't know if he would be my pick here. But he hasn't just come back healthy from that injury. He's come back and been even better than any of us expected. I mean, if he played this well in year two without having torn his ACL as a rookie, I think we would be talking about, you know, him as being an MVP candidate and all that stuff. I think he is one. Yeah, I mean, he's like a little outside of candidate, but I think he's very much in that conversation.

He's the second to me. I mean, I think that partially it's because I put him on the second team all pro. Yeah, I did hear that yesterday. To make a point. But I think that he's absolutely in that conversation. The fact that I think that's exactly right. If he'd come back and played pretty well, he would be a candidate for this award. He's played at an all pro level.

And I think that what happened in training camp with that kind of bit of concern that they all had about how comfortable is he feeling, does he trust the knee. I was there right after that talking to Brian Callahan, their offensive coordinator, about it and the process they had to go through to make him feel comfortable and make him feel like he could trust it and how he was seeing the game and dealing with pressure. And he had to work through a lot to get to this place. And again, if he were playing pretty well, we could mention his name for this award. He's playing about as well as any quarterback in the NFL. So I think it's a no-brainer to me that he deserves it. All right. Executive of the year, very curious where you go with this one. Okay. I'm going with Steve Kime, the general manager of the Arizona

Cardinals. I had a bunch of candidates here, Chris Ballard, John Robinson, Bill Belichick, less need. But I'm going to go with Kime and what he has done in Arizona. And look, he was not a guy who had like a ton of job security. Certainly not. But he's made some really impactful and aggressive trades. Rodney Hudson in the offseason. Zach Ertz at midseason when he was able to kind of assess his roster and look at that team and say, what do we need? We need. We need. an actual threat at tight end, went out and made that trade for Zach Gertz. They made the JJ Watt trade, which unfortunately J.J. Watt got hurt, and it's unfortunate that we don't get to see a full season out of him because their run defense has taken

a massive hit. They were never really able to replicate the production that you got out of J.J. Watt, which no surprise, J.J. Watt is a really, really, really good football player. But then they've managed to kind of get the most out of these other positions on their roster. There's been some low-key, really good signings. James Connor, they signed him in April. They've done double-ditched touchdowns out of him. Bringing back Marcus Golden, that was a really kind of an under the radar. It was fairly early in free agency, but that was a huge signing. And then also, you know, kind of having the confidence with the Isaiah Simmons pick from last year where he had a really rough rookie season, but kind of sticking with him, you know, letting Vance Joseph have another year with him, you know, having that belief in just his athleticism.

And he would figure it out and they would find a role for him. So yes, the Cardinals have tailed off. little bit over the last couple weeks of the season. Steve, I think, just serves a ton of credit for kind of having the conviction to go out and make the aggressive moves that he's made. Not just this season, but, you know, last season, too, the DeAndre Hopkins move and just kind of continually working to make this team better because in the NFC West, you can't just be static.

You can't just say, like, okay, we're going to sign a couple guys in free agency and trust our draft picks to develop. You know what the Rams are doing out there, right? Like, you have to be aggressive to make moves to make your team better. And I just really like almost all of those moves have worked out for them. I think that makes a ton of sense. I do think that some of the quieter moves have been really important. I'm going with Bill Belichick.

And a lot of the time, the person who wins this award is the guy who spent the most money in free agency, which the Patriots spent a ton of money in free agency. And I understand that. And if you look at some of the contracts they handed out, some of them aren't great. You know, the Nelson Aguilor deal isn't great. The John Smith deal, they certainly. have not gotten the returns they might want out of that contract. They spent a lot of money on Hunter Henry. But some of the other moves they made, Kendrick Bourne looks like a really good signing

what he's provided for that offense. You know, Jalen Mills has been a starter for them from day one on defense. If you look at some of the other quieter moves that they made in free agency, like going back to get Kyle Van Noe and what he's been for them, going to trade for Trent Brown, swapping late round picks to go get a right tackle and pay him $11 million a year. That is like the most classic Patriot shit is letting someone else pay somebody 20 and then signing them for half that just for another year is a stopgap. So the way that they've done that and then you look at the draft. Like they picked a franchise quarterback at 15. They have gotten a, they got a viable quarterback who is functional and pretty good from day one at 15 and then drafted Christian Barmore

in the second round. Like what they've gotten from their first and second round picks is more than any other team in the NFL has gotten from their first and second round picks this year. I don't even think it's close. You know, they can get out of the Aguilar deal next year. They can get out of some of these other deals next year, the Godshaw deal, things like that. Not even that these guys are bad players, but they've spent a lot of money on those players because they had to. But when you look at the amount of money they've saved with the Mac Jones deal and just how much surplus value that contract creates for them at that position, I think that it all, in the aggregate, they've had the best off season. Bill Belichick had the best off season.

So could we give like a GM comeback or, you know, Executive of the Year comeback player of the year award? Because, you know, Bill Belichick, the executive had not been that successful for a while. And some of the reasons that they weren't good. And I think he deserves a ton of credit for kind of putting his ego aside a little bit there and having, you know, taking a realistic look at who his team was heading into 2021, that they weren't in a position last year to win. And, what it was going to take. He was going to have to do things that he had never done before, spending that kind of money in one off season.

That's really hard to kind of be able to maybe look yourself in the mirror, take a really realistic look at where your team is at and do something new. So he was right up there for me. I really like that pick. I forgot to mention Matt Judon. Matt Judon has also been pretty good for the Patriots. They also signed him this off season. It's hard to keep track of all the guys.

The other person I did want to mention is Duke Tobin from the Bengals because drafting Jabbar Chase at five, he has been incredible for them. And also some of the deals they handed out elsewhere. Like Riley Reef is hurt right now, but they signed Riley Reef to not a big contract for a starting tackle. He was a functional tackle for them for most of the year. That was a worthwhile move. And then some of the other deals they handed out on defense that maybe he didn't love

at first glance have been really effective. Trey Hendrickson and Chedobie Ousier. Like the Chidobio Wuzier contract, I didn't even give it a second thought when it was handed out. But he has been a really good player for them this year. So they just kept taking swings at cornerback. Free agent swings. They've had some misses along the way. Trey Waynes didn't work out. But they kept swinging and they finally got some really workable cornerbacks there in free agency. And this like Bill Belichick, changing what you do. This is not how the Bengals have ever built their teams. And maybe there's a lesson there that if you do something different, you're going to get different results.

All right. Coach of the year. This is a tough. one. I had a couple different options. I can understand an argument for Nick Siriani based on the expectations that we had for the Eagles coming into the season and what this Eagles team ended up looking like, especially on offense. The fact that this is a top 10-ish offense this year and they've really tapped into a formula that really works for them, their running game is one of the most fun things to watch in football. And that makes sense when you could think about their personnel, but they did a really good job of honing in on that. It took them. It took them. a while, right? The fact that they refused to run the ball for the first month of the season

now looks funny in hindsight, but I think they do deserve some credit for really figuring that out. The fact that this is a playoff team when we didn't even think there was absolutely a world where they were the worst team in the league, according to some people. We were talking about the worst rosters in the NFL. We mentioned the Eagles coming into this season. And that was probably wrong. But at the same time, I think that what Nick Siriani has done is pretty impressive. but my answer is Mike Rable. I mean, this team played 86 guys by Thanksgiving. 86, which is the most of any team since 1993.

That was by Thanksgiving. The fact that they're the number one seat in the AFC, and they lost Eric Henry for half of the season. They lost A.J. Brown for a huge chunk of the season. Their offensive line has been in and out for chunks of the season. I mean, two of the guys, Nick Westbrook Akina and Chester Rogers, were like, this team's two receivers for a while. And they're the number one seat in the A&A.

FC. That to me is incredibly impressive. And the other side of this, I think, is worth mentioning. We often try to separate player acquisition from coaching, right? If a draft is good, the executive did a good job. Player development is a huge part of being a coach. And what they have done, their 2019 draft class, if you look at it from top to bottom, it was Jeffrey Simmons in the first round, AJ Brown in the second round,

Nate Davis in the third round, Amani Hooker in the fourth round. David Long in the sixth round. All of those guys have been impactful players on this team this year, really important players to what they've done. In 2018, they drafted Rashan Evans in the first and Harold Landry in the second. Harold Landry has been really good for them. If you look at their 2020 draft, obviously the Isaiah Wilson thing is its own thing. But Christian Fulton, their second round pick in 2020, he's been really good for them this year.

Elijah Molden, who they picked in the third round this year, has been really good for them this year. their ability to develop in-house players defensively what they've gotten out of Kevin Byard this year. Everybody, that entire group, I think, speaks to what they've kind of built there is like an incubator of talent. They've done such a good job of bringing along those players, and they've gotten a lot out of it. And I think their ability to kind of have this,

this is how we play, this is who we are, it doesn't matter who's out there. I mean, you watch the offensive line play. The word we used on Sunday, so it was uniformity. There is a uniformity to their attitude approach the way this team plays right now. And I think it's really impressive. I mean, I think that they have done an amazing job this year of weathering a substantial storm, not only to just make the playoffs, but to be the number one seat in the AFC.

And there's a huge lesson here, I think, for the teams that are going to be going through head coaching changes. 100% in the next week or so and front office changes. John Robinson and Mike Rable are so in sync. And their guys are the same guys. I mean, there's not guys that John Robinson likes that Mike Frable doesn't like. They're so in sync with who is a Titan, who they need to get in the building. You don't play 86 players without the coach and GM being in constant communication about what you need. To the point where they're probably tired of talking to one another at that point with 86 players.

For sure. But I mean, I think it's a really good lesson for these teams who are figuring out, you know, who we're going to bring in. You know, you look at are we keeping the old GM and hiring a new coach? are we going to keep the coach and bring in a new GM like the Giants? At some point you need to really have those two guys be just so tied together. And a lot of times it works when they come in together and their contracts are linked. You know, I think we've seen that time and time again. But the Titans are, you know, such a good example of that.

All right. So my coach of the year is Matt LaFlor, the Green Bay Packers, who is starting to get into that Bill Belichick territory where he's so good every year that we almost start discounting him because they just win a lot. But so often the coach of the year goes to like the new guy who has had some sort of a breakout performance where, you know, it was the Matt Nagy of a couple of years ago where we had no expectations. It's the first year head coach and he gets the guy to the playoffs. You got Matt LaFleur who has three straight 13 win seasons since he came to Green Bay. And yes, he has Aaron Rogers, who is the best player, best quarterback in football.

Last year, this year, probably next year as well. but he's had to navigate the Packers through so much, so much stuff this year. Imagine me waving my hands all over, all of this. Going back to what he had to deal with the entire offseason, is his quarterback going to show up, trying to get Jordan Love reps during the off season. David Bactiari, his Starlift tackle, hasn't played, barely practiced all season. Massive COVID issues going on there. You know, your quarterback and your GM are few.

with each other. And here they go, just ripping off another 13, potentially 14 win season. They get to play the Lions this week. So I think he deserves it just for what he's done this year. But I also think he deserves it for what he's done kind of over the course of the last couple of years when he hasn't won an award because there's other people who have been like the shinier new, you know, hot coaching candidate. I will fully admit this.

I cannot untangle him from Rogers. and that's why I can't. It's fair. I can't give this to him. I wish I could. I wish I could watch a Packers game and just divvy up credit for what their offense looks like. It's like, oh, this goes in the Lefleur bucket. This goes in the Rogers bucket.

But it's so hard for me to do that. And I went back and I watched multiple Packers games before we did the show today. The reason we'll be clear in a second. But I did that and I'm watching it. It's like, Rogers just the control he has. And we'll get to that in a second. But it's, it's just so hard for me. I wish I was better at it. I'll just fully admit that that's why I

can't give it to him because I cannot extricate him from Rogers and the credit that Rogers deserves. I think it's also important to remember two years ago where we were constantly talking about, oh, do they not get along? Do Rogers in the floor? Are they not on the same page? And they're not in sync. And, you know, for as much as Rogers does himself in that offense, the floor has forced Rogers to become a better and different quarterback to do things differently. at times to function in the structure of what LaFleur's offense is like in ways that Rogers never had to do when he was playing for Mike McCarthy. And it was just a totally different offensive worlds there for him.

So at some point, I just think he deserves credit. I think he deserves credit for switching coordinators this year, his defensive coordinator, moving on from Mike Petton and bringing in Joe Barry, who's just worked better, even though they've had a lot and they've had a lot of personnel issues, injuries on that side of the ball. So he was my pick early in the season. and I've kind of stuck with it along the way, even though I think there's been some other really good candidates there. You know, I think Bell Belichick is in this conversation.

I think Cliff Kingsbury, I think at least deserves a mention. Some of his game management stuff leaves me. I don't think I would vote for him because of that. And Zach Taylor, I mean, Zach Taylor was probably on the hot seat early last year. I mean, early this season, he was a guy who a lot of questions whether or not he deserved the third season and should even come back. and the Bengals are division champions right now. So a ton of worthy candidates at that position this year.

It's going to be when we get the actual AP voting for coach of the year, it's going to be really interesting because I don't think it's going to be close to unanimous. There might be five or six guys who get votes. You go a lot of different directions. I think with Zach Taylor, I mean, their offenses left a lot to be desired this year. Their insistence on leaning on a pretty inefficient run game for huge chunks of the season. And to me, I think that the players there have kind of taken hold of that more than the coaching staff has. I do feel like they've done a really good job of kind of keeping the train on the tracks. And clearly, guys like being there, guys are excited to be there, whatever.

But he's not as much in the conversation to me as Lafleur is just because the injuries that the Packers have had to endure. Like you talked about all the stuff they've had to deal with, bringing in Joe Barry, I thought was a very good move and has benefited them. I'm fully willing to admit that it's just impossible for me to separate what he is from what Rogers is, which brings. us to the MVP conversation. Lindsay, who is your NFL MVP for 2021? All right. So if I was submitting my vote today, and I will be submitting about, I am a voter. If I was submitting it next week, I don't know. We'll see. I haven't made up my mind 100%. But if I was submitting it today, I'm going to vote for Aaron Rogers. And there were a lot of people in my mentions on Sunday, on Sunday night when I was watching Aaron Rogers just dissect the Vikings. And he just makes a couple

of those, oh my God, throws every game that there's no one else in the planet, even Patrick Mahomes and Justin Herbert, as much as we love both of those guys. There's just throws that he makes that nobody else can make. And he's playing that position like nobody else is. And it's crazy that a month ago, we were not talking about him as the MVP of the league. We did that. We did a podcast for the first week of December where we ran through all of the candidates. And Tom Brady was the pick then. And for me, Tom Brady is second. Joe Burrow has not passed Tom Brady for me there. You know, the case for Brady is that he's leading in pretty much all of the traditional metrics, yards, touchdowns, all of those sorts of things. So that's the case for Brady, right?

He's like, you know, he's throwing the most touchdown passes. He also has had like the highest volume, you know, in terms of how often they throw in the amount of dropbacks that they have. If you look at PFF today, Steve Palazzo, wrote a very persuasive and I think really good piece about why Brady deserves it. I don't necessarily agree with all of those points, as you'll hear in a second, but the volume and the amount put on Brady was an argument in his favor, which I can totally understand. So I think that that is worth mentioning at the very least. Yeah. And so, you know, I think with Brady, too, the argument for Brady is, a lot of it is narrative, right? It's every single thing that he does every day of this season, his historic. We've never seen somebody at his age,

play football, let alone play at an MVP level. And he is doing something that has never been done before. I don't know if we'll ever see it again. I mean, the rules are, the rules potentially favor guys playing longer technology, all those sorts of things. But I don't know if we'll ever see anybody do what Brady is doing. And it's going to be hard for me to vote against Brady. But I just think with Rogers, he's playing the position differently and better than everybody else.

And yes, statistically, he's not quite matching his number. from last year, but sometimes that's unfair to expect that you're going to always reach those exact same peaks. And in the absence of a historic season in terms of, you know, somebody shattering yards and touchdown records, Rogers is the best player. He's the most valuable to his team. We've seen what they look like without him. It was very, very bad. I was at that game in Kansas City. So it's Roger. It's Rogers to me. It's Rogers to me as well. And I've really sat with it and thought about it for a while over the last couple days. I think that him missing the game because he's unvaccinated is about him missing the game. It's not about him being unvaccinated if you were

going to use that as a ding to his argument. I mean, that does matter. Like overall value you provided, I think that you should take that into account, the fact that he did miss that game. I mean, he's been the most efficient quarterback in the week. EPA per dropback, he is comfortably ahead of everybody else. He also has the most total dropback EPA. So it's not just efficiency per play. He has added the most value to his team as a quarterback this year. If you want to talk, and I think the argument that PFF made was totally understand it. Some of the interceptions that Brady has thrown that are just unlucky bounces of the ball aren't necessarily his fault.

Even if we took interceptions off the board entirely, they would still be about the same and total EPA created, even though Brady has thrown 160 more passes than Aaron Rogers. So if you look at the numbers, I think they favor Rogers as the most efficient quarterback in the league. And then to me, it's the act of watching him over the second half of this season. I went back today and I watched the Rams game and a couple others. Just watching him in that Rams game with backup offensive linemen playing against Aaron Rogers and Von Miller. The control he had of that game, just how much it felt like the game was in the palm of his hand, the throws that he was making, the degree of difficulty on some of the throws that he was making, how comfortably and

smoothly. He was navigating muddy pockets and getting balls off with weird arm angles and just the finger he has on the button right now combined with the spectacular throws. If you look at it, his like big time throw percentage on PFF is higher than Tom Brady's, even though Brady has more because of sheer volume. I think if you asked Aaron Rogers to throw as many times as Tom Brady does, you would get a better result because of the way he is playing the position. with a worst supporting cast. Devante Adams is the best receiver in the league. But other than that,

what are the Packers playing with their past catching options? Their offensive line has been in tatters this entire year. And they've still been arguably the best offense in football. So when I watch him right now, I just think he's the best football player on the planet. That is kind of where I come down on it, and I think he deserves it. I think there's a conversation to be had about

what this could have meant for Aaron Rogers. Like if he won the MVP this year and all of that other stuff had never happened, I think we would talk about him in pretty rarefied air. Like this would be a legacy defining type of season. And as a football player, it is. I mean, this is a legacy defining season. Yeah. Just in other ways.

As a football player, I think that the way that what this season has been for him has really kind of been an exclamation point, kind of slam the door type thing for him. And, you know, the other stuff, whatever you want to say about it, has made everything obviously more complicated, but on the football field as a football player, he's been the most valuable player to me. Yeah, for me. And it's, it's not really hard for me to separate like everything that's happened with him off the field with an MVP vote. I don't have a hard time with that. I mean, I think it'll be interesting. I and I tweeted about this a little bit this week where when you talk about a guy like Antonio Brown and he comes up in his Hall of Fame case where I don't

know how much you can separate everything that's happened with Antonio. Brown over the last couple of years and where he fits in the all-time legacies of wide receivers and when eventually will he get into the Hall of Fame. I think for Rogers, this has changed the way a lot of people just like view him as a person, right? Like I, his beliefs and all of these sorts of things. But like, it does not change anything about the type of football player that he is. I will also mention as much as I never wanted to see his toes on Twitter, he's also have been playing through like a pretty painful toe injury that just now seems to be getting better, which should be really terrifying for whoever they're going to play in the postseason.

Yeah, that I think goes without saying. Like whatever his stance on some of the stuff is, it has no bearing on whether or not he's the MVP of the NFL. Like it, it just shouldn't be there. All right, that's all we got. It is time to get to our team visit with Kat Terrell. Let's do it. All right. It's time now for this week's team visit.

I am thrilled to welcome our Saints Riders. at the athletic and one of our good friends. Catherine Terrell, Kat, thanks for doing this. I'm excited to finally be on with you all. I feel like I haven't talked to you since I don't even know when. It's been a really long year. So it's been a while. It's been an extremely long year.

It's been an extremely long year for the Saints. We wanted to have you on this week because a couple different reasons. I mean, this team could make the playoffs and we'll get into some of those scenarios. But they also face some weirdness here over the next several months. And I think they're setting up for what looks to be a pretty pivotal. middle off season. So I want to touch on what the next week might look like, what the next three or four months might look like. First and foremost, why you just kind of set the table for us right now with the 2021 Saints? What are they looking like roster-wise going into this game? Because I know that's

been an adventure for the last couple weeks. And what needs to happen for them to make the playoffs this weekend? Well, we were talking earlier before we started recording, obviously, and I was joking that this offense is just disgusting to watch. I keep using terms like this, like offensive or disgusting and just to be funny, I guess. Yeah, I mean, I don't, I don't know what else to say. It's just gotten so bad, but I guess what do you expect? I mean, they are, they played in the last year, they have played four quarterbacks, I think. If you go back, all the way back to it, and Drew Brees is still playing, um, their offensive line situation went from great to a total mess. and they don't have wide receivers.

So the fact that week 18, that's weird to say, week 18, they still have a shot to make the playoffs, kind of tells you what this coaching staff has been able to do. But I think finally they're kind of getting back on good footing injury-wise and COVID-wise. We talked to Sean Payton on Wednesday morning, and he said something like, there is no injury report to discuss because, you know, everyone's back. So that was positive news from him. But I think, you know, considering all that's happened in the last few weeks, they're kind of on good footing going into this final game of the season. So one of the things that Robert and I have been doing on this show over the last month or so is whenever we talk about these teams that are barely still alive and the Saints are obviously one of these teams that's been hanging on.

But one of the things we always get into is, does this team even want to make the playoffs? Where are the Saints at with out right now? I mean, they're right on the cusp of potentially making the playoffs if they beat the Saints. I know there's some other things that potentially need to happen. But what would making the playoffs do to this team? Is this a team that really wants to make the playoffs? Should they make the playoffs? What's kind of the case there?

I think if you asked fans, they would say the team should make the playoffs because, of course, fans always want a bigger draft spot when they think the team is kind of on the verge. I think if you talk to the team, they absolutely want to make the playoffs. The weird thing about this team is, yes, the offense, strangely, talking about a Saints team is a problem, but the defense, I think, is as good as any defense in the league. So a lot of people are automatically counting the Saints out. I mean, and I think it would be difficult with this offense to make any type of run.

However, when you're looking at the first week potential matchups, their defense is good enough to keep them in there. So I don't think it's crazy to think about the Saints as a playoff team if their defense is playing at the top level, which it really has been the last. few weeks, whenever the offense is able to help them out just a little bit. It feels like this year especially, I think because in part, the offense has been so bad. And because Drew Brees and all the oxygen he takes up is no longer there, it feels like it's been easier to appreciate the defense.

They've gotten a lot more space. They've gotten a lot more attention. And as I watched this team over the last month or so, I mean, Cam Jordan is the obvious guy, right? He's playing extremely well over the last couple weeks. but guys like Marshawn Latimore, guys like DeMario Davis, Marcus Williams is having a good season, and Dennis Allen in general, and just the job that he's done. Do you feel like this kind of shift in power when it comes to where the Saints are good

has allowed us to appreciate that side of the ball and what they've put together a little bit more? I think so because I don't think this defense is that much different than it was last year. It's really not. It's the same guys. Yeah. But when you talk about the 2020 team, And the defense, yes, they do get their due, but they don't really get talked about for what they did last year. I think because there was so much drama with the quarterback situation and his breeze kind of come back from his broken ribs and its breeze is last ride and all of that. And so now that voice, as you said, it's gone. And the voices left that of the leaders are defensive voices.

They just are. I mean, DeMario Davis and Cam Jordan and Malcolm Jenkins. So it is interesting. It is a total shift. But I think also the Saints have just, they've never had an offense anywhere near this bad in the entire Sean Payton era. They've had offenses that struggled, but nothing like this. So, yeah, I mean, I guess naturally all the, all the shine kind of falls on the other side of the ball.

How much do you guys actually get to talk to Dennis Allen over the course of a season? Generally, once a week. Okay. It is that often. Not always. Sure. Yeah. So I'm just curious.

As someone who talks to him a decent amount has kind of gotten to know him, I'm sure, a little bit through those conversations. What do you think about his potential second act as a head coach? I don't know. It's hard to say. So when you talk to Dennis Allen, he's this overwhelmingly positive person. You get him on the phone. We always have conference calls. And you ask him how he's doing.

He always says, I'm doing outstanding. Like it's the best day ever. You know, that's great. and it works so great as a compliment to Sean Payton. Now, if you've ever talked to Pete, is Sean Payton, not like that, is how we trying to say?

He can be, but I don't know that he's ever said he's doing outstanding. But, you know, Pete Carmichael and Dennis Allen are these foils to Sean Payton's personality. And Dennis Allen is so much calmer. He's just different. And so as a coordinator,

he's done a fantastic job and it works. But I do wonder, how does this personality translate to being a head coach? And do you need some of the Sean, Payton fire. I don't know, but I would like to see him get a second shot. I would love to see what that looks like. Yeah, I mean, because when he was when it with the Raiders and Oakland, I mean, that was just, it was a bad time. It was a mess. I don't think he really got a fair shot there. I mean, it didn't work for a lot of reasons. And I'm glad he's had this like really nice

second act to his career as a coordinator. I want to talk about the quarterbacks. what are you think needs to happen over the next week to two weeks to three weeks if they get into the playoffs? But what does this quarterback situation look like for 2022? Oh my God. You just made me realize that it was actually, they've played five quarterbacks, not four. That's how many quarterbacks have been playing. I forgot about one. I think we all want to forget about what happened on that Monday night football.

Oh, Ian, you forgot about Ian Buck. I think I forgot about Trevor Simeon. you know, who only started several games this year. Yeah, it's funny. It's just, it's such an odd situation since I covered one quarterback for so long. But I think given all of that, you enter the off season,

there's no sure thing at quarterback. I don't think Taste of him healthy answer. I think Ian Book needs development. Obviously, he's thrown into an awful situation. And no one knows what to make of them yet. And so you kind of turn your eyes to James Winston, did they re-sign him this year and hope that he comes back from his ACL tear,

the same guy? Or do they go after someone else who's on another team? I think that it's going to be something that everyone's going to be talking about for several months. And it's not going to make for a quiet offseason. There's just, there's no one sure option as we stand right here in January. I know this is impossible to do. And, I'm asking you to be a mind reader in a way that you can't be. Does it feel like they'd be comfortable rolling with James Winston again? Or do you feel like there's a certain level of urgency where the people in the building, Sean Payton notably, is looking at this and saying, we need to do something.

Like the rest of this roster, we talk about the defense. The core is aging. You know, you have this kind of core of talent that is very good in some areas, but is on the wrong side of 30 for the most part. do you think that they can continue to slow play this? Are they going to look at this scenario and think we need to make a major splash and a major upgrade right now? I think that's a great question. So I think the Saints are always in win now mode.

I think that's how they look at things. I think if they see someone that's going to make their team better, they're going to do it. But I also think that it's not a situation where you have this once in a generation quarterback and who's clearly heading towards retirement and you absolutely have to put the pieces around him to fix things right now. I think when you're talking about defensive players, it's a little different because most defensive players can't change the fortunes of a franchise. So I don't know that they're looking at, okay, Malcolm Jenkins and Cam Jordan and DeMario Davis are here, so we need to build now around them. That being said, I think of sure,

Sean Payton sees an opportunity to go get a really good quarterback and try to fix this thing right now, then he's going to do it. I mean, I don't think Johnson's name. Just say it. Yeah. Well, no, because now we're going to go down that rabbit hole. But I think Sean Payton probably as much as the rest of us does not want to endure another year of sitting through this Saints offense.

I think it would pain him to do that. Well, I was going to say, COVID-willing and we have a normal combine. I'm just saying those conversations about the Saints at. St. Elmo's and out all of those bars at 4 o'clock in the morning will be wild. I can't even imagine the rumors that we'll be flying around Indianapolis that first week of March. So let's say they do want to get into that pool. What's the pitch? What would they go out and say, this is why you Russell Wilson or Aaron Rogers or whoever it might be.

This is why if you are going to get traded, this is why you should want to come here. first of all i mean i have no idea what you're talking about with the bars at four in the morning i never seen you there yeah never look you got to play defense and stay to the last person is out of the building i'm just before i get into this i'll just launch into a quick story at the combine once i think i did leave um prime 47 at four playing defense people and then so maybe it was three And then later I hear that this big blowout fight happened between an agent and a general manager. Thankfully not a team I cover about like a really important player. And right down the bar from where I was and I told everyone,

that's why you keep staying because if there's NFL people around, you never know what you might hear. That being said, I do hope we have the combine. But I think that Payton could go up to Russell Wilson, provided he's allowed to talk to him and all of that, whatever. and say, hey, look, you know, look what we were able to do despite having no wide receivers, despite not having anything really at tight end, despite having our offensive line be decimated. And yet we're still in the playoffs. Think about what you could do if we could get you here with me and draft a decent wide receiver. I mean, we could definitely make a playoff run.

This team is in place with this great defense to, make a run in 2022 if we just get you in here and fix the offense and I don't know now it's not him he has to convince at first right it's what do you have to offer the team so I think that I'm sure he could be convinced if all the things work out as the saints would like but hey we'll see so Russell Wilson is not free if you know if you knew this though that he gets paid he gets paid rather handsomely. Compared to most quarterbacks, it's actually a pretty marginal salary. His base salary is $19 million

next year. You'd be able to fit that in in most situations, except the Saints are currently $60 million over the 2022 cap as you look at it. So I want to know who is going to be around, who's not going to be around, what cap casualties might

exist. How are they going to do these gymnastics like they managed to pull off every single year? Okay, first of all, 60 million is pocket change for them. About a year ago at this time, I was doing a story about how they can free up a hundred million. So a little different this year.

Like that, the hundred million thing, as some people want to address it and some people want to pretend like it didn't happen, they would have probably been okay if COVID hadn't happened and slashed the salary cap. But it did. And they had to pay for it. And that's why I have no wide receivers. They had to get rid of Emmanuel Sanders. They had to get rid of Malcolm Brown.

They had to get rid of a whole list of players I could name, but everyone knows the story on that. This year, I have looked into Russell Wilson's contract because at first I thought, that's ridiculous. Think about how much you get paid. The Saints, impossible. And then once you look at it, the Saints could do their usual antics and add voidable years

and convert his set out. You know, they'll figure out a way to do it. They've worked their magic before. But I have not yet looked into who would get cut. If they traded Michael Thomas, it wouldn't save them much money or if any money at all. Cam Jordan's contract was restructured last year, so he would be hard to move. And also the way he's playing now, I don't think they would want to. So you don't have obvious candidates like you did last year.

So I think what you see a lot of is adding years on some of these players. they'll restructure all their contracts. I don't know there's going to be any huge cap casualties this year, but I think the one to look at is what happens with Ron Armstead and Marcus Williams. Since Marcus Williams is on the franchise tag and taking up a sizable chunk of money right now, obviously they'd love to probably get a long-term deal done and not be carrying that big salary cap hit. So there's things they could do. I think they could figure out a way to make it work,

but they have to make it work and get a receiver at some point or else they're still. in this mess. What do you think about the Michael Thomas future? Do you feel like they're headed toward a divorce? Because that situation has just been very strange for the last year or so. I'm not sure what you've read into it or what you feel like the temperature is there. But I'm curious what you think his future might hold. I wouldn't be surprised if he's not on the team next year, I mean, or I guess this year next season. I just wouldn't. It's just, it was a weirdest situation. It was hard to get a handle on. I thought maybe things had thawed when he went and stood on the sidelines in one of the preseason games and a few

games after. I thought that was their way of trying to tell the public, oh, hey, look, we're making up. Things are fine. Hard to know how fine it was, but he was around. And then all of a sudden he doesn't play. And so now we're talking about a very, very highly paid wide receiver who has not actually been 100% healthy since September of the 2022 season and publicly feuded with the team. So it really just, I think with any team, it depends on who's behind you, you know, how bad do they need you? So I don't know.

I could see that ending in some sort of standoff this year and him being moved to another team, but they could go the other way too. So what have you learned about Taysam Hill this year? Who is this guy? Just explain to Taysen Hill to me. Explain it like my daughter was in the room because I don't understand it. She doesn't understand it. But as somebody who's around all the time, what have you learned about him?

And more importantly, like, what should we know about him as part of the Saints' future plans? I don't know that I feel any differently about Tassam Hill than I did last year when he played quarterback. And I said multiple times it's not the quarterback of the future. He had this opportunity. in 2020 to run with it and hold on to the job. And they went out and got, um, they went out and,

you know, said James Winston was going to be the quarterback. And I thought that was a writing on the wall. Look, I think the positive qualities about Taysam Hill is the guy's tough as nails. And I think Sean Payton appreciates that. I mean, he's playing on one good foot and one good hand right now.

So, I mean, I think that factors into it. I think Peyton loves players that can do multiple things. but I don't think that he's suddenly opened their eyes this year and made them want to sign him as their franchise quarterback. I actually think his contract says that. Everyone said he has his huge contract,

and I think he's being paid like an upper middle tier tied in. So I think the contract says what they think about him. As to why everyone is so obsessed with Taysam Hill, including the coaching staff, I don't know. People just love to talk about it. I don't know. It's the funniest thing.

I feel like people talk about his contract once a week on Twitter and then get irrationally angry about it as if it's their money. It's very funny. When I look at this right now, you talked about Tron-Armstead and Marcus Williams. It feels like it's going to be hard for them to retain Teran Armstead at his age and with the other financial considerations they have. I would never rule out anything with this team, anything, when it comes to fudging numbers on paper and finding money in the couch cushions or in the same.

ceiling, wherever they find it. But it does feel like even if they can pull up some wizardry that this roster is never going to be good as it was a couple years ago. It just can't be. By virtue of the dip in the salary cap, these guys getting older, all of this stuff, that's going to be a high bar for them to clear. It feels like a period of transition, just if we're being kind. That being said, do you think there is a world where another franchise would call the Saints and say, listen, we'll give you three first round picks for Sean Payton. Do you think that's even a remote possibility? I'm not asking for any particular franchise that exists in the Upper Midwest where you're

currently, where you currently are. I was going to say, you could just say the bears, I could see the helmet sitting behind you. Yes, for people that can't see our video, I actually am in Chicago right now and enjoying this lovely 12 degree weather that. got going on here. It's particularly disgusting today. Yes. It's beautiful. I'm very sad to fly back to New Orleans soon to my lovely 70 degree weather. The Bears offer three first round picks for Sean Payton. That would be just the greatest thing I've ever heard of in my life. The two fan bases would implode like so spectacularly it would create a black hole in the

NFL universe. It would be awesome. So let's let's do it. Let's talk about it. I mean, I'm curious. If you're the Saints and you're thinking, all right, we've kind of played out the string here. Like we have a lot of guys that are in their 30s. Our offense is in not a rebuilding mode, but certainly, again, a period of transition. Is there a world where the organization would say, you know what, maybe this is best. Maybe it's just time to kind of go our separate ways. We'll hit the reset button softly. This is a way to kind of reinvigorate the team inject some resources into it.

We wouldn't have had otherwise. It's a far off possibility, but we've talked about it on the show a couple different times. Like if even not the Bears, even if you're a team like Jacksonville or a team really looking for a proven head coach and willing to pay for it. It just seems like this might be a moment where you could call the Saints and try to convince them of that. It's like, you know what? Maybe it's best that we all kind of started over in this exact fashion. I think any team that does that is absolutely insane, but I do love insanity. I don't think that the Saints, well, okay, any team that, if it was actually three first round picks, like you said,

We'll go with that. Any team in the world, it's going to be like, you know what? It's been a great run. We'll take those picks, except the Patriots, probably, maybe a few others. But I think that this year has proven more than ever what a good coach, Sean Payton is. If you think back on everything that's happened, they lose their Hall of Fame quarterback. They have to go to Texas for a month because of a hurricane. Again, offensive line last week, there was one starter, and he's the weakest on the whole,

line one sort of left out of all of them and uh god i can just keep going on you know your best receiver doesn't play your kicker doesn't play uh what is the other thing that happened oh the two covid outbreaks so all that being said this team being headed towards the playoff run shows how valuable sean payton is and i don't think the saints would want him to go anywhere it's why they keep keep it um year after year when there's rumors that he's going somewhere else so let's let's Let's hope that this is not one of those years where I hear about Peyton to the Cowboys like 80 times. Oh, I don't care about the Cowboys. That doesn't matter to me.

But that's usually, that's usually where it goes. It's usually the Cowboys. All right. Well, you've dashed my hopes a little bit. Lindsay, anything else you got? I was just going to say, what's your prediction for this weekend? What are we talking about with the Saints come Sunday night? I think the Saints win.

I don't know if the 49ers are going to lose. They might, I mean, the Rams are, I think it's their favorite to lose, right? The Rams are a good team. But I just think it was- Yeah, except for Kyle Shanahan owns Sean McVeigh somehow inexplicably. I think it would be the most 2021 season ever to have the Saints, like, win this game and then have all this hope. And then the 49ers come and just rip it away from them. And they don't get a play. They don't get a play off that.

I did pick them to beat the Falcons. and I did pick the Rams to beat the 49ers for whatever that's worth. But I was going to say it'll be fun to watch, but will it be fun to watch? I'm really not so sure. Depends on who you ask. Saints and Falcons, it's always interesting. Catherine, thank you very, very much for taking the time out to do this. Enjoy your flight home.

Have a safe flight. Enjoy the warmth that you get to return to. I will be cold here for a while. So feel for me. Well, I bought a giant, I brought my giant coat. So if you want me to like toss it towards your house on my way out of town, I can do that. That sounds great. Chicago is no colder than the Superdome Press Box.

You are well prepared for this. It's very true. Oh, my God. It's so true. Catherine Terrell, thank you very much with time. It's always good to chat with you. Good talking to you all. All right, guys.

That's all we got for today. Sincerely appreciate Kat for taking the time and chat with us. Really enjoyed going through all those awards with Lindsay. Please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform. form of choice. I sincerely appreciate that. Please subscribe to the athletic. Theathletic.com slash football show. We will be back tomorrow with Nate and Sheel doing our week 18 preview and picks.

Until then, appreciate you guys listening. Talk to you soon. This was the athletic football show.