The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - 2022 Fantasy football primer with Josh Norris and Evan Silva

Episode Date: July 21, 2022

Underdog Fantasy’s Josh Norris and Establish the Run’s Evan Silva are back with Robert Mays to get you ready for the 2022 fantasy football season. Which players should be at the top of your board? What are some tough decisions you may have to make in your draft? Who are some late-round running backs that could add value to your roster? They discuss all of that and much more. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Hey guys, it's Robert. Just wanted to make a quick note before we get started. One of our guests was having a little bit of internet trouble when we were recording, coming in and out a little bit. So if Evan disappears for stretches of the show, that's why. I just wanted to give you guys a quick heads up before we get started, just so you know why things are a little bit scattered moments during this episode.

Hope you'll stick with us. Appreciate it. Thanks a lot. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. Today's Thursday, July 21st. I'm Robert May. fun show for you guys today it's mid to late july training camp is not here yet this is the time every single year where i kind of awake from my fantasy football slumber start getting back into my

fantasy podcast i'm about to spend a lot of time on the road over the next two to three weeks have about a month to my until my big draft that i have every single year so i'm starting to dig into my fantasy prep and i am going to have some overlap here between my personal prep and what we're doing on the podcast because that's the easiest thing we can do today. I am thrilled to be joined by two of my favorite fantasy voices, two people whose opinions I trust on all things fantasy and honestly on all things football, period. First of all, Josh Norris from Underdog Fantasy. Newly engaged Josh Norris.

Congratulations, my friend. Thank you, man. Some people, you know, get a little bit nervous for an engagement. I took the next level and did it overseas abroad and without single location for it and everything. But Robert, as with the rest of the world, it all works out in the end. So I'm very happy. Still in Cloud 9. Thanks for having on the show.

I could not imagine the nerves associated with traveling with that wedding ring. It was tough. Even having it in my jacket pocket, I proposed to my fiance around the corner from my house, probably five minutes away in the park near our old place where we used to hang out in the midst of an evening. We went to the bar where we had our first date and then we eventually went to dinner. Even that, I was like, man, I'm checking it every. 10 seconds flying with it. I truly cannot imagine how stressful and anxiety inducing that was. There were multiple moments when she was gone to work where I would just take it around the apartment and just look at it. And then like I said, finding a location just via a photo in a

garden in Paris and a fountain there was a step maybe too far. But I'm so glad that it happened and it all worked out. I'm very proud of you. It's not set too far at all. A lot of respect coming from this side of the table. Also joining us. us today the man the myth the legend evan silva from established the run evan thank you very much for doing this my friend may as you know i i love to be a party a part of you really just bring us on here to ask questions about your own fantasy team that's what's about to happen keeper and dynasty and i want to remind the people and you of a trade that we sort of collaborated on a couple years ago where you gave up in i think your dynasty or keeper you gave up david and joku and david johnson's

to get Travis Kelsey. Yes. And do you remember, we got a lot of negative feedback on that, but you absolutely murdered that trade, absolutely crushed it. So I won two championships in a row, in part because of that Travis Kelsey deal. And I was going for three in a row last year. And I ultimately fell short. Matthew Stafford just murdered me down the stretch over the last three to four weeks.

And it is completely thrown off my team building plan. And now I can't decide whether to rebuild. So I will sneakily get in a lot of questions about that without you guys knowing as we go through this entire conversation. So the way that we're going to kind of lay this out, you know, I don't want to go rank players or talk about positions. You guys do that extremely well. If you guys aren't checking out the work that both of these guys are doing, I love the

podcast that Josh does with Hayden Winks on Underdog. They do a great job just kind of giving you the fantasy landscape. Establish the run is an invaluable fantasy resource. If you guys do not have a subscription, highly, highly encourage you guys to go check that out. What I want to do because we don't do this full time, I really want to to do sort of a fantasy football primer for this season. We're going to go through a bunch of different questions categories. Things that I feel like are particularly interesting about this year, about team building when you're thinking about your fantasy team, all that kind of stuff. And

what led to a lot of these questions were figures from last year that I want to try to replicate or lessons we learn from last year that maybe can inform the way we're thinking about our teams this year. And the first person to come to mind there was Cooper Cup. In our Keeper League, I think he went for 30-something bucks where top-of-market receivers go for 100 based on our league settings. And when you have a guy like that, those are league-winning players. So I'm wondering, Josh, not that if there's a Cooper Cup in this year's draft, because I severely doubt that there is, somebody who's going to come from relative obscurity to win the triple

crown. But is there somebody outside of the top 10 at their position that you think can lead the league in fantasy scoring this year? Just to put in perspective with Cooper Cup last year, he went as wide receiver 16, actually two spots after Robert Woods, who was wide receiver 14, which is fascinating in retrospect. I felt so bad for Hayden because he was on it. He was on one of the Rams guys being the number one receiver in fantasy last year, and he just picked the wrong guy. What's funny is there's a few like 10th at their spot this year who could conceivably do it. Like Sequin Barclay is going as

running back 10, but that doesn't really count. The name I'm going to throw at you is someone that no one wants to draft and it's James Connor. James Connor obviously split the backfield last year in Arizona with Chase Edmonds. And it wasn't, one was a third down back. One was the first and second down player, passing down guy. It truly was a between the 20s and then inside the 20s. Yeah, in the six games that Chase Edmonds missed last year, we saw 77% of snaps, 82, 82, 91, 96% of snaps for James Connor. That resulted in two running back one overall performances. a running back two, a running back seven, and two other top 12 finishes. Like James Connor, I think a lot of people remember his final few years with the Pittsburgh Steelers.

And they see a worn down former feature back. And after this organization was not able to keep both of these talents, it is very clear that now James Connor gets a full-time role, one where he's going to see far more passing down usage where he was highly efficient last year, caught 37 of 39 targets. in offense that's going to be top five, top 10 in the league this year. I don't think they're going to try to replicate Chase Edmonds with Darrell Williams or, you know, Benjamin or anyone else. So I'm not one to bank on future injuries. And in the middle of the third round, late third round for James Conner, he's kind of on an island with running back picks to himself.

And I absolutely love selecting him in this part of the summer because I still think he's highly, highly undervalued. How do you feel about James Connor, Evan? Because I know that Josh and Hayden, every time I listen to them, James Connor comes up, even when the conversation isn't about James Connor. So I'm wondering people that aren't talking about James Connor every single day, how they feel about him coming in. I'm pretty much in lockstep with these guys. You know, he can play in the passing game. He's plenty good between the tackles. It sounds like Rodney Hudson, they're going to figure that out. And I, you know, the offensive line is a little bit of a concern there. But I mean, they're going to play fast. There's going to be a lot of opportunity there.

The backups are much poorer now post-chaise Edmonds. And James Connor built a reputation in Pittsburgh of being, you know, sort of injury prone, but he showed that he could largely stay healthy last year. And, I mean, he's good in all facets of the game. I do think he's bound for some negative touchdown regression. I mean, he scored, what, 18 TDs last year? That's going to be tough to repeat.

But I still think he's going to score a lot of touchdowns. I mean, I still think he's definitely going to score double-digit TDs as long as he stays healthy for the majority of the season. They run the ball down there, too. And they absolutely run the ball. I mean, they spread the field and they create efficiency. And people will look at his yards per carry without consider. And they weren't, I think it was under four last year,

without considering that he got so many short yardage carries that will actually bring that down, scored so many touchdowns close into the goal line. I would not focus on his yards per carry from last year. Their rushing efficiency is pretty bad, though. Overall, they did not run the ball well last year, even with light boxes. When you consider even a situation, I know the exact numbers there are in front of me, but even situations where they had an efficient box count and an advantageous box count, they were not running the ball effectively.

So that would be the only concern for me in terms of efficiency that on a per clip basis, maybe he's not getting a lot. And that's also more of a real life concern than a fantasy concern. Absolutely. Sometimes I can flate those way too often. Josh, I'm curious how you feel about this because one of the reasons I think you can make an argument for somebody like James Connor doing this. is it just me or do you feel like the top of the market running backs this year aren't as bulletproof or as appealing as they have been in recent years?

Because if you look at the tiering of it, I understand why Jonathan Taylor and Christian McCaffer are kind of that top tier for everybody. Christian McCaffrey isn't without his warts and concerns. So when you get down behind that, it's like, man, Derek Henry is in an uncertain offense coming off of injury. you know, Dalvin Cook, we have Alexander Madison kind of lingering there. Are they going to throw the ball a ton? Naji Harris is not in a very good offense. And not an explosive player in terms of reeling off 20 plus yard runs. And, you know, those big plays equal big touchdowns.

And that's what changes weeks. I'm, I'm with you. But on some level, Robert, we also got that with first and second round wide receivers last year, too. Like typically that position is viewed as bulletproof. And it wasn't last year either. All of these guys, 100 percent have. have questions as you outlined it. It makes me want to invest probably more often than typical.

And we're going to get to this topic of second round and third round running backs as well, because you can invest in both of those running back spots if you want to take a wide receiver tied in to start your drafts. And then one final thing with James Connor. I mean, only what five backs last year played over 60% of their team snaps. Only one played over 70%. Universally running backs, it's a split backfield across the league.

And I think he's truly one of those because of the investment. made in him an inability because of cap constraints to really bring in another option next him to fill that a la chase Edmund's role. He could be one of those 60 or even the only 70% back this season. Heaven, is there somebody you think outside of the top 10 that could lead their position in scoring this year? Yeah, it's Terry McCoran. And I remember one of the first times we got together, May is at Peace in Chicago in Wickert Park. We were talking about Terry McCoran. And your comparison coming out of college for Terry McCormon was Keenan Allen, which was very interesting because, you know, I think when we think about

Keenan Allen, he's a short to intermediate guy, plays a lot in the slot, you know, but he's like a super savvy route runner, but he ran like 4-7 coming out of college. Terry McCorn can fly, okay, but he can also do, you know, the savvy route running stuff that Keenan Allen can do, but he can also make big plays downfield. And if you look at the quarterbacks with who whom Terry McCorn has played to this point in his career. And look, I'm no big fan of Carson Wents, but he's clearly going to be the best quarterback of Terry McCorm's career to date. These are the quarterbacks from whom Terry McCorn has caught passes to this point in his career. Dwayne Haskins, Taylor Heineke, Case Keenham, Alex Smith, Colt McCoy, Kyle Allen, Garrett Gilbert,

and Logan Thomas. That's it. Okay. That's not strong. So I think that, you know, and we, And we look back last year at what Carson Wentz was able to do with Michael Pitman, who took a pretty big step in his second NFL season, over 80 catches, well over a thousand yards. You know, Terry McCorn, to me, has that type of town. I don't know overall wide receiver one. That's rich. But I think in the top five, I think that that's very much within his range of potential outcomes.

The reason I compared him to Keenan Allen back then is that I saw an interview with Terry McCorrin going into his rookie year and the ways that he was talking about route running and setting things up and just how clearly in tune he was with how to get open in the NFL and what what drives that it reminded me of talking to keen and out so when i heard him say that i was like this dude runs a four three and he talks like this i'm 100% in and he was really good from the start so i my suggestion for this i'm going the exact other way i'm going to go with the guy that carson wends just left because i think matt ryan is a significantly better quarterback than Carson Wentz. I think it's Michael Pittman because looking at the type of player Michael Pittman was

his rookie year and the yak opportunities he had, I think he averaged like seven yards after catch per reception as a rookie. Last year was down at four. And building in those sorts of opportunities on slants, quick hitting stuff with a Matt Ryan instead of a Carson Wentz, I think kind of re-enlocks the real player that Michael Pittman is combined with the jump we saw from him last season. And these are hard. These are stabs in the dark when you're talking about these sorts of jumps and getting the returns you'd get on someone outside of the top 10, either leading the league or being top three in scoring. But that's the one when I look at the list, I feel the best about just because if we're trying to piece together why Cooper Cup did that,

it's a significant jump in quarterback play that unlocks somebody. And I think Michael Pittman kind of fits that mold to me in a way that none of the other guys on this list do. Josh, how do you feel about that? I like that point that you just made. because sometimes we can't even predict how significant a quarterback change can be a wide receiver, running back, offense in totality. Like you just said, we saw it with both Rams wide receivers last year named the Cooper Cup. And maybe that is the Matt Ryan, who was getting juiced by that local media and coaching staff already in all season reports.

I mean, it feels like Frank Reich has rediscovered the quarterback position and how they can play it with just Matt Ryan coming under center. Quick point with with Evan. Terry McLaren, that's a name I absolutely love. Just going back and because I love to rewatch some of these offenses from last year because you really forget, even if it's a six to eight months away. I mean, he led the NFL and contested targets last season with 47. It's because Taylor Heineke's lack of arm strength eliminated so many big plays like

Terry would be getting open on inside or outside breaking routes or down the field. And while, you know, Taylor Heineke might have some gamer to him in terms of creating something out of nothing. There were so many throws to his back shoulder or into the defensive backs chest that Terry had to react to. And I'm not saying that Carson Wins is going to be great with that placement and stuff, but he certainly has an arm that's much, much better than what Taylor Hineke brought to the table. And the Underdog Football Show is a huge fan of what Scott Turner has been able to do during his time throughout the league. I think he's one of the more underrated kind of creative coordinators out there. I totally agree. If you look at all, again,

just putting guys in positions to succeed, box counts the way they ran the ball. How creatively he uses some of his receivers. And that step up from a Taylor Heineke to even Carson Wentz, who none of us are enthusiastic about. That's a real improvement. That's an improvement that can unlock your skill position players. I going back very quickly to this one fantasy league that I'm in that I care about, my receiving core is Stefan Diggs, Michael Pittman, and Terry McCourt.

And I have to decide whether to keep it together or start to rebuild. So this entire conversation is getting me very excited, but probably for nothing as I inevitably lead to this appointment. Robert, that's one topic and two. mentions already at this fantasy league. So what? We might get to five or seven. I'll do it the entire time. It's the only thing I care about anymore. Going through the entire football season, what I'm really caring about on Sunday is not planning for the show that we're doing. It's whether or not I'm winning in this league. That's the most important thing I have every single week.

All right. I want to dig in to decisions that people might have to make as they go through their drafts. I always think that's a fun little exercise. My brother was talking to me the other day about where he wanted to pick in his league and we were kind of going through what that. might mean from round to round. And some of the real-life choices he's going to have to make. It's like, man, I would not want to make those decisions. So I want to run with a few of those. And I want to start with one that you actually brought up today on Twitter, Josh,

a listener posed this to you. And I think it's a really good, really telling one. Yeah. Alan Robinson versus Cam Acres. And all of these are going to be players that are going to be picked pretty much in the same range. So these could be realistic decisions that you would end up having to make. Alan Robinson and Cammakers, according to your guys' rankings at Underdog right now, are 43 and 45.

So you're going to be picking both of those guys potentially in the fifth round. At this moment right now, Josh, if you were tasked with picking between those two, which direction do you think that you'd lean? Yeah. Part of it is the start you've already had. You're built so far. Easy. I absolutely love Alan Robinson. I mean, we have him head of ADP and a major part of it.

And you have Nate and talked about this a lot where how Odell. was such an X factor, no pun intended, in terms of being the isolated wide receiver inside the 10 and inside the 20. I mean, he had 24 targets inside the red zone last year with the Rams O Delta, 12 targets inside the 10 and caught eight touchdowns on those. Like the ability to play big and small in that air of the field where everything else is bunched up on the front side of the formation. It's crucial. And that's why they prioritize Alan Robinson. And this offense can absolutely support two past catchers. Now where this football, fantasy football bubble that Evan and I occupy and don't get to hibernate like you do most of the season, most of the year.

I think we're all really, really down on KMakers as running back 19. And part of me wants to take a step back and wonder why that is. And I think part of it is based on coming back from injury a little bit too early last year and just not looking great. Then you dig into some of, because touchdowns are so important, some of the really important high value touches that even Sony Michelle got last year. He tied for third in the league, third in the league for carries inside the 20 yard line.

It's very clear that this Rams organization does not believe in Daryl Henderson long term because whenever they give him a long run, he gets injured. You bring Kyron Williams to maybe take over that past pro role that Sonya Michelle had last year. And I just wonder, like, should we really care about our last exposure to Kim Makers when it's so clear that the Rams have this thorough belief in him because as soon as he was healthy coming off this quick Achilles recovery, they thrust him back into a full-time role. So if that's an offense that we want pieces of, if that's an offense, that's going to be top five, top 10 this

season, why are we letting the feature back on that team last all the way to running back 19? So like you said, that's the conversation I'm consistently having right now. I think part of that push and pull is if you're looking at the running backs, if you pass on the cam acre stretch of running If you let that stretch of things go by and you don't get a cammakers or an ETN or a Breece Hall somewhere in that range, can you find another viable running back after that? The answer is pretty dicey. I mean, you're putting yourself in a tough spot. At receiver, it feels like you're going to have more opportunities there.

The scarcity as you get into that range of drafts, Evan, that to me is why I would probably lean acres there, even if I do have some of those late-season. and struggles in mind when I'm thinking about him purely as a player. Well, and people are still pretty reticent toward drafting Alan Robinson right now. And the same is true to an extent with Cam Acres. But, you know, Alan Robertson is coming off a terrible season, the worst season of his career by far. But if you look at his ability to win versus man covers, like Matt Harmon,

reception, perception statistics. And if you look at his, historically, the quarter. backs with whom he's played again staying on this topic like like i talked about with terry mccloring andy dahlton nick foles chad hens chabitribisky blake burles christian hackenberg matt mcgloin jace daniel justin fields those are all the guys with whom from whom allan robinson has caught passes and i mean you can even like go back to college you know so and we and we saw last year how matthew staffer was able to elevate cooper cup and then you look that the target competition is not real strong beyond Cooper Cup with the Rams.

I mean, we're talking about Tutu Atwell, you know, 110 pound Tutu Atwell. I've seen him blow away on the field if the wind gets too much. I've seen him actually blow away on the field 15 miles per hour or more. Tutu Atwell, I mean, he's going to be in the stand. They're in a dome. That's true, but they do play some games outdoors. And that's when Tutu Atwell blows away. Alan Robbins is not blowing away.

He's 6-3, 2-30, 42-inch vertical. You know, I mean, I think he's an absolute stud. He's not hit. He's not past his prime. I know he had a bad year last year, but that was, you know, explainable in a lot of ways. And I think he's going to absolutely smash this year. The thing is, though, that you have to take Cam Makers here because of the ADP.

Because Camer is not going to make it to the fifth round. We're talking about fourth round prospects here. Cameraker's not going to make to the fifth round. Alan Robinson very well might. I also, you guys do this all the time, Josh, a way that I think is really smart. Follow the resources. Follow the resources because they can often point you in the right direction. And even if we're a little bit hesitant or a little bit skeptical about what Alan Robinson looked like last year, you got $15 million a year from the Rams.

The Rams aren't skeptical about what he can give them. The other name that you need to follow how a team interacts and follow the money is really Gabriel Davis and the Buffalo Bills because he's obviously, if you just look at his past production, a season standpoint and not just the individual game that we saw what four touchdowns and 200 yards the last time he was on the field you know people might get scared and say well why haven't the bills ever ever given him a chance as a starting receiver for them and to me I think his past production is absolutely meaningless and we shouldn't factor it in at all and it's because prior I mean at the end of 2020 when john Brown was hurt and he was thrust in the starting role he had an abysmal

catch rate, he just wasn't ready for a starting gig. And so that offseason, the team went out and prioritized Emmanuel Sanders, who played really well for about 12 to 13 weeks. And then last year, I believe it was week 14, Gabriel Davis finally started playing 70 plus percent of the snaps. He was a full-time starter. And look what we got. And so if you again, follow the actions of the bills who are in a win now mode, they brought an absolutely no outside competition for Gabriel Davis's role in two wide receiver sets or three wide receiver sets. Cleo Shakur is, you know, the fourth player on that team that maybe can play inside and out, zero competition.

So, again, an offense we want pieces of, I know it seems expensive based on never reaching a thousand yards out there, but we have to, it's a forward thinking show, a forward thinking process, as Evan always alludes to. So Gabriel Davis to me, just based on the perception that the bills have on him, the runway is clear for a full-time 80 plus percent snap player. And that's all that we want with the both of the bills. offense. I love that you brought him up because he was going to be one of my other would you rather's here. He's going in a range, Evan, right where Rashad Bateman is going. And I think this is

an interesting thought about just fantasy football in general. Maybe you're not totally into this every single day. You're trying to pick during your draft. And you're looking at a Gabe Davis, who is the clear cut number two receiver within a pass happy offense. And then you look at Rashad Bateman, who is going to be the number one receiver and an offense is probably not going to throw the ball as much. So in your mind, be tempted by the guy. It's like, this is the number one receiver on this team. This is the guy that I want, even though the volume is going to be bigger in Buffalo. So if you were, you had that decision, Rashad Bateman or Gabe Davis right now, Evan, which way would you go?

I have Gabe Davis. And it's because of the past volume. And look, I really like Rashad Bateman. Really, Mark Andrews, though, is the number one pass catch. That's good point. Yeah. And I think that the way that their off season went, it seems like they want to get back to running the piss out of the ball. You know, that, I mean, I really do like Rashad Bateman.

He's just, he always goes a little bit ahead of where I'm willing to take him in drafts. In the fourth round, the target that I have like really been locking on to recently is Cortland Sutton because he's, you know, this is age 26, 27 season. Again, two years removed from injury. Yes, yes. Two years removed from that 2020 ACL MCL, MCL, that was a bad injury that really affected him. last year. Again, going back to the topic of what, you know, what quarterbacks has, as this guy played for previously in this court? Drew Locke, Case Keenham, Joe Flacco, Teddy Bridgewater, Jeff Driscoll, and Emmanuel Sanders. Those are the players from whom Cortland

Sutton in his career, in his NFL career, has caught passes. The Broncos no longer have one of the oldest coaching staffs in the league. They sound like they're going to be more progressive and under Nathaniel Hackett. And they're going to build the offense around Russell Wilson. who wants to play fast. And I think that's going to benefit pretty much everyone in the Broncos offense. I just have such a hard time parsing what that receiving core is going to look like, where they're going to line up, who's going to get the volume, what the usage is going to be. I have no idea.

If you look at, I was talking to Nathaniel Hackett earlier this year for a story, earlier this summer for a story that should be out fairly soon on the athletic. And he was telling me that he could see Tim Patrick in the slot for them because of the way they used Alan Lazzard last year and the types of slot receivers that system needs. Think about the guys we see in the slot within that offensive tree. You have Cooper Cup in Los Angeles, who's 6-2-2-10. Alan Lazzard played 200 snaps for the Packers in the slot last year. Justin Jefferson is going to play a ton in the slot this year for Minnesota.

He played, I think, almost 200 snaps in the slot even last year for the Vikings. Drake London just got drafted by the Falcons. He's going to be a slot player at 6-4-225 for. for them. So Tim Patrick might end up there. So if he does, what the hell is Jerry Judy going to do? What is his usage going to look like? The one thing I do feel good about, though, Evan, stylistically, Cortland Sutton is a perfect player for Russell Wilson. If we're just going to be outside the numbers of vertical shots, that one requires less imagination. So even with all of the murkiness with that whole receiving core, Josh, I still feel best about Sutton and the way that he fits

with Wilson. Yeah, just to put some numbers to this and you outlined it with Corton Sutton. the moon balls that Russell Wilson throws. We know he had the mind meld with Tyra Lockett and D.K. Metcalf and Sutton obviously fits that perfectly. But you all almost are, if you're thinking Jerry Judy, who's being drafted as wide receiver 22, like he's a surefire hit on underdog this summer, questionable. Last time he's a full-time player, he's 74% of his snaps from the slot. Tim Patrick, 72% snaps outside.

And then the question, even though they have these three or even for wide receivers, if you want to include KJ Hamler coming back from an injury, who's out there in the two wide receiver sets, you know, because that is the most important question when you ask. We fall in love with number three wide receivers all the time. But, you know, these teams run different personnel groupings. They put two tight ends or fullbacks or whatever else out there. And so two wide receivers sets are crucial. They are vital. And I, and Evan, you know this, reading the T. Lee's, reading the news reports, it is no surefire thing that it sounds like that is Jerry Judy over Tim Patrick. And that might be a true camp battle to watch as well. Yeah. I mean,

Tim Patrick is a better blocker than Jerry Judy, number one. And don't forget that the Broncos late last season gave Tim Patrick some money. That's exactly right. This is an undrafted player that a new regime, a new front office invested in and pretty good money. Three years, 34 million. That's a lot for an undraft for a previously undrafted player. I mean, I don't think it should shock anyone if Tim Patrick and Cortland Sutton are the

one, two on the outside and two receiver sets. and Jerry Judy is like the slot guy. Or just if in three receiver sets, he's on the field and Tim Patrick moves inside. But that too. The only receivers that this regime, this front office, have dedicated resources to George Payton's group, is Tim Patrick and Cortland, both of whom got contract extensions last year. This group didn't draft Jerry Judy. Yeah.

So, I mean, sometimes that's not the most important thing. But I think picking up on those breadcrumbs, I always try to pay attention to that stuff. I mean, and the range of outcomes for Jerry Jude's season is crazy. because he kind of is on that, I don't know, Calvin Ridley spectrum of a player who's a pure separator, but at the same time, it feels like just watching him, he's on the field and falling down and, you know, almost overselling his routes a bit more often. And just to the point, again, eye in the sky here, for all of these wide receivers in this range, for months and months, people have been drafting an underdog fantasy and sending these ADPs,

the top 14 that kind of ends at wide receiver with the two Chargers guys and Michael Williams and Keenan Allen, plus Michael Pittman. After that, it was a mess. I mean, all the rankings were all over the place. Now, DJ Moore has kind of climbed and solidified himself, but hopefully Baker Mayfield is that wide receiver 15. But after that, from some names we just talked about in, let's say, Rashad Bateman from wide receiver 26,

down to Marquis Brown at wide receiver 16, you pull and bring on any fantasy analyst here. They're going to have split rankings and different ones all throughout because it's all a projection on a second. your leap or a new coaching staff or a new quarterback they're attached to. But we know a bunch of those guys are going to hit. And it's just like you're saying, Robert, trying to understand how a team wants to play, how they're going to use these guys.

And so some real like football intelligence is going to win out in the end and trying to diagnose what that grouping of wide receivers is going to be and who's going to be successful. Very quickly before we move on here. And Evan's going to join us again when his internet starts working. The one wide receiver conversation that I call. when I was going through ranking. It's like, oh, man, that would be an interesting decision you'd have to make. Amon Roth St. Brown versus Elijah Moore.

Like, those are decisions. These are the types of things you're going to have to choose between. And it's like, man, I mean, it's really, really tough in that range because you saw how he came on late in the season. But I know you guys and I liked Elijah Moore as a prospect. Oh, man. There's uncertainty with how the usage of that offense is going to be. There are just so many questions with so many of these guys. It feels like we'll have more clarity when we start getting camp.

reports and things like that. But if you're drafting right now and you'd have to make that choice, I don't even know where you'd start. I think Elijah Moore has a chance to eventually be maybe the best second wide receiver across the league. And I think he already ruined a bunch of NFL evaluators evaluations of him because they probably thought he was a pure slot. And just lining up on the outside, he was outstanding.

Now, I understand when he was on the field, it was when bad Zach Wilson was out there, arguable if he ever got better. But Jets fans did that one game against the box. He was okay. and like two throws against the Titans. Sure. And that's the game that the Jets fans want to throw in your face every single time you mentioned Zach Wilson. But they were awful together. Like Elijah Moore was far more productive if it was Mike White or Joe Flacco out there.

Anyways, the name in that range that I keep going back to and is the player objected most on underdog is Russell Gage at wire receiver 33. Because that progression, that path to me is so clear even with or without Chris Godwin because we know that that offense can support. three wide receivers too. I was going to say it feels like a bet against Chris Godwin, but you feel even with Godwin back in the lineup, Gage is going to get enough work. Even for the first six weeks, seven weeks, and who knows when Chris Godwin does come back. I mean, I follow the money. I mean, Russell Gage is not Antonio Brown, but Russell Gage is so pure of a talent that fits in so many of the ways that old school or present day Tom Brady succeeds in that I think like just the priority of him running alongside Mike Evans, who we all love this year, who I think has a,

a chance of being the overall wide receiver one this year, getting that at wide receiver 33 because he's never had a real breakout performance or a breakout season. I think we might be stealing a little bit. All right. Let's move on here. We're still waiting for Evan, but I want to get to our next subject here.

So let's say hypothetically, you're in a fantasy league. And it's a keeper league where there are a lot of running backs that are not going to be available. And you know that you're going to have to make some unappealing decisions as it relates to guys in what has been deemed. the running back dead zone, kind of in that 25 to 35 at the position range, guys outside the top 20, but you need a starter within that group. These are depressing conversations. No one wants to be

having them, but they're important to have because inevitably, you're going to need one of these guys to hit. So I want to pose this to you. If you're looking for somebody outside of the running back top 20 in that 25 to 30-ish range, is there somebody in that group you? Is there somebody in that group you feel best about if you need somebody to be a second running back for you all year. All year is tough. And I'm actually going to go to the absolute rock bottom of that range that you outlined and talk about the running back 35. And that's Remandre Stevenson.

I mean, at this point, like clockwork during the summer, you'll undoubtedly hear that it's impossible to predict how the Patriots are going to use their running backs. But guess what? Last year, I think on this very show in this conversation, Robert, I sat here and said Damien Harris is the pick. Damien Harris is the guy because it's trying to guess forward thinking what the Patriots wanted to be. They wanted to be bullies.

And then that ultimately led us into the second and rushing total touchdowns that Damien Harris was a key piece in someone winning a million dollars in underdog last year. Now, why am I talking about Romandre Stevenson now if I love Damien Harris? One, he's on the final year of his contract and who knows how that's going to go. Two, Ramandre Stevenson literally had two touches and one fumbled the opening five weeks of last season. But then he touched the field and he was electric. If we talk about big plays from a running back position, that's 10 plus yard runs, 20 plus yard catches. Only three players had over 15% of their touches equal that mark. Nick Chubb, Rashad Penny, and Ramandre Stevenson,

22 big plays and 147 touches. And I'm not done, Robert. If you're talking about a yak per reception at the running back spot, James Connor 10.5 already talked about him. Jonathan Taylor 10. 10.1. Hey, he's going as the 101. this year. Remandre Stevenson tied with JT at 10.1. When you zoom out and rewind just a little bit, Ramondre Stevenson played a heck of a lot for a rookie running back in a Patriot system and organization. I love Damien Harris in terms of one cut, get up the field, boom, let's gash him. But if the Patriots want to be a bit more explosive this year and it'd be a bit more dynamic, James White potentially is back in the fold, but every time you read about this Patriots backfield,

Mike Reese, everyone else who covers the Patriots say, who knows what James White's status is going to be. Remandre is probably a better passing down back, especially a receiver. And I think the sky might be the limit with or without Damien Harris because I think remandre is a big back with balance could be a really special talent. This is the range.

I don't know exactly where they went last year, but two guys that you guys talked up all offseason and that eventually were hugely valuable for people in fantasy. Or James Connor, who we talked about earlier, and Leonard Fernette. Both of those guys emerged as top backs in fantasy-friendly offenses and did huge things for people down the stretch. And if you're looking at this range of players, right?

So let's just list off some of the names. A.J. Dillon, Tony Pollard, Clyde Weberwood-Zallair, Cordero Patterson, Miles Sanders, Damien Harris, Kareem Hunt, Melvin Gordon, and then you guys have Ramadre Stevenson next in your rankings. I think a lot of those guys for them to be potential top 12 backs. this year. You need an injury to happen. That's necessary for that path to start existing. There's a world, like you said, Damien Harrison in the last year of his deal, Patriots haven't committed to him at all. There is not a lot preventing New England from giving that lead role to

to Ramadre Stevenson if he's just better in the same way that Leonard Fournette did for the Bucks last year. Didn't you think he was special when watching him like there was that play against I think Atlanta. It was called back. Immediate pressure by Grady Jarrett and the backfield side steps him has to make a incoming slot corner miss as well, then wheels and spins and creates these longer gains down the field. I don't know exactly what this Patriots offense is going to be this year, you know, I think if people don't like Mack Jones and they're lying to themselves, I think they're going to put a little bit more in their plate, but with the play calling of Matt Patricia X Joe Judge, who the hell knows. But I do know that Remandre Stevenson is freaking

talented and they just want to play some bully and beat you up and he's so explosive and so much fun to watch. All right. Evan is back and the timing is perfect because I know Evan that you have a guy in this range outside of the top 20 at running back kind of in this grouping that you that is your favorite bet among these guys. Who is that? And it's, it's Miles Sanders. And I know that he's frustrated. A lot of people scored zero touchdowns last year. Okay. But he's also the lead back in what could be the best rushing offense in the entire league. Quarterback by a dual threat. PFF came out with their O-line rankings in June.

They had the Eagles at number one. The Eagles are deep on the offensive line as well. I mean, like their second string offensive line is better than the Bears first string offensive line. Sorry. Appreciate that. It's just that, and also, you know, they didn't do anything to upgrade their backfield in the offseason.

So, and I think they're going to be a good team. team this year. I think they're loaded again. I mean, I think they're loaded on defense, loaded on the offensive line, you know, really a lot of explosive potential in their offense after adding AJ Brown, Devante Smith enters his second year. I mean, I just, I think they're going to score a lot of points. I think they're going to be able to control games. And Miles Sanders is the clear cut lead back there. I kind of am with Evan here, Josh. Talk me out of Miles Sanders. I'm not going to talk you out of it. The issue is high value touches. And you can say the exact. same thing with my comment with Andre Stevenson because Damien Harris is the one that saw 30 carries inside the 10 and that equaled 11 touchdowns.

So we just look at the Eagles and what they did inside the 10 yard line last season. Jalen Hertz had 22 carries, Boston Scott had 16, Jordan Howard had 14, Miles Sanders had 10 and Kenny Gainwell had eight. You know, we want the one who is constant. We want the James Connor in that environment, the guy who's going to get the rock and score the six points because we know, hey, touchdowns are pretty good in fantasy football. and I'm not sure. I know he's not going to equal zero touchdowns once again, but I don't know if we have it for sure yet that he's going to be the player that they trust

in their short-yarded situations. I'm going through the rest of these guys in this range and it just makes me sad. It just makes me sad to know that I'm going to have to do this in a month or so. It end up with one of these guys because every single one of them, it's like I can poke holes in this.

I'm concerned about this. Josh Jacobs, right? Josh Jacobs is theoretically the number one back. in an offense that should be better. You have Devante Adams there now. You have Josh McDaniels there now. It's like, I can talk myself into this. And then you just think about what the Josh Jacobs experience has been like over the last few years.

Hate that. I'll draft Tony Pollard. High upside, you look at all the underlying stats. You got to feel super good about that. And then I'm going to watch Zeke Elliott touch the ball 22 times a game all season. It's a really, really gross area of the draft to have to worry about. But that's why I want to talk about it because you do have to think about it with some new wants, even if no one's excited to do it.

Robert, let me give you a guy that you might get you excited. And that's AJ Dillon, because if you look at the complexion of the Packers' offense right now, you know, they're getting back guys on the offensive line. They have a bunch of ascending young players on the offensive line. They're going to be really good on defense, I think. I mean, their defense is stacked, okay? You know, they've got, they still got Aaron Rogers. The receiver core isn't that great anymore, but Aaron Rogers can help themates.

They're going to control games. they play in a division with the terrible Chicago Bears, okay? This is like twice in the last two minutes. With the, with the Detroit Lions, who I think, you know, we probably all, you know, they're fun, you know, but, you know, their Vegas win total right now is six and a half. And then Minnesota, who's like in a rebuild mode might be able to score a lot of points this year, but they're going to give up a lot of points. The Packers are going to dominate this division again.

and when they're ahead, A.J. Dillon really benefits. And also what he did last year in the passing game, because he didn't do any of this stuff at Boston College. He looked smooth in the passing. He caught 34 passes last year. You know, so he showed an incredible amount of versatility. He's got a high floor just based on his role in the offense. The best two players in the offense outside of Aaron Rogers in Green Bay are A.J. Dylan and Aaron Jones. They could just be more run-heavy in general as they're.

don't have a catching talent. I wouldn't be surprised about that at all. Man, the one guy that makes me sad even think about it, the person who delves into the dolphins backfield in your fantasy draft, asked them if they're doing okay. Ask them if they just like, you want to go to dinner, you want to go hang out for a second, you want to have a conversation.

That's just a world I would not want to engage with at all. It's just absolutely disgusting. All right. Speaking of absolutely disgusting, I, you, we mentioned a couple of these guys, Josh, so far. But one blind spot I have, fantasy-wise, and I'm so bad at it every single year. I get intoxicated by the exciting new guys.

I don't want to be somebody who invests in a plotter who's going to get the volume and average 3.6 yards to carry, but in the aggregate, it's going to be enough. I would much rather be too early on somebody who was a second round pick and is that potential flash in the pan type guy. You guys are very, very good at this on your show, be leaning into the guy. guys who might not seem exciting, but are going to give you something in your fantasy league? Who are those guys for you this year? Who are the boring guys that I should actually be excited to draft because it's going to be good for me? This isn't cheating, I promise. And it's not a running back. It's not a wide receiver. It's a quarterback. It's last year's quarterback three overall. It's Tom freaking Brady, who's going as the quarterback nine or quarterback 10. That's wild to

think about. What's crazy. And Robert, you talk about this with Nate all the time. The league has shifted towards creating big plays and preventing big plays. And Tom Brady has really evolved with it, right? He's so much more aggressive now than he used to be. He attempted the most deep balls in the league last season, period. Like he will now risk it just a little bit to throw interceptions to create game-changing moments. And we know that his situational football is absolutely amazing.

And with how good the Bucks roster is, he's in the perfect environment to succeed and why he's overlooked this year and was overlooked last. year, it's because he's not one of these quarterbacks who creates production on the ground with rushing totals. And for so long, that was the cheat code to winning Fancy football, was getting ahead of Lamar Jackson's breakout or Josh Allen's breakout. And we can go Jalen Hertz as well. Guess what? We don't get any of those anymore. It's built to the price now. Exactly. We're so much smarter at evaluating these things, people like Rich Rebar and J.J. Zacharyson and all of them that to me that plummets and pushes down some of these statute

quarterbacks that are still thriving. We talked about on the show last year. I love double tapping the Tom Brady Matthew Stafford stack last year with those two and almost back to backgrounds. And again, I don't know is what what does change other than obviously Gronk and Chris Godwin's hurt. But guess what? Tom is also the type that if they're going to give you heavy boxes, he's going to throw the

ball 12 times in a row to start the game. Like he's in complete command. You guys need to move your, you guys need to move Mike Evans up your rent. I love it. Get on my level where I have him like number seven overall because I mean, he's about to have a Hall of Fame year if everything that you just said is correct. And you know what, Mike Evans, I think is a Hall of Famer, a future Hall of Famer. And I think this could be the year that kind of cements him in that league. We've had this conversation like three times on the show in the last couple weeks. It's been a lot of are we appreciating Mike Evans as a player enough type of chatter. And I think that it's worth revisiting. I wouldn't be surprised by that at all. If Mike Evans was the number one, one receiver in fantasy this year, just sit there and nod. I'd be like, yep, that sounds right. I totally get how that would happen. And I think Tom Brady being in that same sort of range among

quarterbacks would be necessary for that outcome. And I really think that's important, Josh, that point about checking ourselves when it comes to Russian quarterbacks. Because if you think about even where Trey Lance was getting drafted last year with the idea that he could eventually start and now where he is, he's going right where Tom Brady is. And I understand wanting to shoot for that upside and hunt for it with somebody like that. but we're in a place now where Tom Brady even without the rushing,

Justin Herbert without the rushing as much as these other guys, there's still a lot of value to be had in guys that aren't going to give you that in the ground. Bucks were second in pace last year, second in neutral pass rate. Again, I ask you, what has changed other than a couple guys retiring and one guy injured who will come back at some point this season? So buy the dip on Tom Brady in my opinion. All right, we lost Evan again. So we'll get him back in a second when his computer starts working.

Give me another one, Josh. Give me another boring guy that I should be excited. about drafting. I think some of you, I'm talking about you, this show, have forced this on the people. It's Christian Kirk as wide receiver 41 because so much of the focus is on the Jaguars overpaying for middling to above average wide receiver talents. Who cares? That helps us. You know, that means they're going to use Christian Kirk in the exact way that he thrives. And it's that vertical slot player. We know that Trevor Lawrence is an aggressive passer. He's going, around a bunch of questionable talents who I like as, you know, their evaluations, but

Cadarius, Tony, Brayne Ayuk, MBS, Chris Olavay, so and so forth at wide receiver as the number one receiver on the Jacksonville Jaguars because so many people are focused on the price tag of what he was given him for agency and not on the opportunity he's going to have this year. That's a pick that I want more and more of as you go along this summer. I think that makes total sense. I don't necessarily disagree. I'm wondering as I'm looking a guys in that range. Is Michael Thomas in this conversation where it's not exciting anymore?

There's tons of concerns built in. But when you're thinking about the upside of a Michael Thomas compared to Russell Gage, who he's going right ahead of in drafts, is it a smart bet to see what you can get out of Michael Thomas compared to the guys going around him? And they're actually a full round difference. Russell Gage is going to 69 overall. Michael Thomas is 81.

This is so tough because the last time we saw a full season, for Michael Thomas. He was the overall wide receiver one on the season. I mean. And the wide receiver two and wide receiver three that year were Mike Evans and Chris Godwin when they were attached to throwing James Winston. I think parts of this is just the unknown of who the Saints want to be this year because, you know, in the first, what, four games of last year, James averaged, what, 15 completions and about 22 attempts per game. I don't know if you have any insight on this, Robert, but are they going to allow him to throw 30, 33 times per contest while bringing in Chris Olavé and Jarvis Landry was that a little bit of a hedge for how they view Michael Thomas.

These are all just questions because if he is out there, I firmly believe if we get 17 games of Michael Thomas, he'll almost certainly be a top 25, top 24 wide receiver this year. Well, we did have Nick Underhill who covers the Saints, long time, you know, Saints beat writer at New Orleans Football.com. Great website. We had him on the show yesterday, established the run. And he thinks that they're going to open it up a little bit. this year. That's encouraging because again, I think that the guys you can get in this range, he would probably be the highest upside bet. The bang for your buck there could be extremely high. Evan, do you have somebody that's somebody who's boring, but I should be excited to draft this year? Adam Thielen, because you can get him seventh, eighth round in virtually every draft. I understand he's 32. There are really two reasons to want to draft Adam Thielen every single

time in the seventh or eighth round. And the number one is because the, the Vikings pass rate is expected to spike under Kevin O'Connell moving away from the Mike Zimmer era, and also because of his on-field relationship with Kurt Cousins. That's a really good one. All right. So that's kind of the middle range of receivers. I want to go to the top because looking at pretty much everybody's receiver rankings this year, Josh, Devante Adams and Tyree Kill firmly in the top 10. That scares me. It's tough. Because obviously we've seen, we know what they are in their previous stops. They had been there for so long. They were ingrained into the fabric of those offenses.

There was no imagination whatsoever necessary to picture what Devante Adams and Tyree Kill were. Now you need plenty of it. I have no idea what those situations are going to look like. And even if you like Devante Adams and Tyree Kill as players, which I think all of us should, it's so difficult to project what usage is going to be like, what volume is going to be like, especially for somebody like Tyree Kill. So when you're thinking about players who are in dramatically different circumstances and unfamiliar circumstances like those two guys,

how do you try to figure out how to parse that? Luckily, I think part of it is baked into where they're going. Because look, if Devante was back with Aaron Rogers, he might be the overall wide receiver one or two, and now he's going as the wide receiver five. Meanwhile, Tyree Kill is going as the wide receiver nine. It's very difficult. And let's start off with Devante Adams.

And it's not just a conversation with him, as you're alluding to, It's a conversation also with Hunter Renfro and Darren Waller and Josh McDaniels, who I think actually over the last couple years from the Cam Newton era in New England to now has really evolved his play calling even on like a monthly basis at times when he has to. But what Devante Adams and Hunter Renfro did last year, I mean, they were ninth and 10th in slot targets. Okay, 78 and I believe 79 for Devonzi Adams. Also, they combine for 27 targets inside the 10-yard line. Hunter Infro had the highest percentage of his team's targets inside the 10-yard line last year. And to me, that's not, you know, repeatable. Now, the question is how Devante got his production in Green Bay.

So much of it was those screens and, again, the high-value targets. Just looking at Kendrick Bourne, if we're talking about the Patriots past catchers, he led the team last year with eight screens. DeFonte Adams at 25. I don't think I can bet against a Derek Carr who has previously played with DeBonte Adams. But I think the point is we're not going to see him as often in the slot. We're not going to see as many of the gimmies in the screen game. But the player I want at the end of it is Derek Carr, who hasn't hit, you know, 30 touchdown passes in years and years and years.

He's 100% going to do it this year. And you're being able to get that as like the quarterback 13 or quarterback 14. I feel like it's easier. I have more faith in what a passing game built around Devante Adams and Derek Carr looks like than what a passing game built around Tyree Kill and two at talking about low it looks like. Plus Jalen Waddle. Yes. I just think there is so much murkiness to that entire situation. If I'm looking at just for example, okay, you guys have Tyree Kill going like 28th in your rankings, 20's 21st and 80P.

So some of the guys around Tyree Kill would be Sequin Barclay. Javate Williams is going a few picks later. Love the running backs in that area. Somebody like Nick Chubb, I'm probably going with the running backs there. I would rather have those running backs, especially this year, than Tyree Kill almost every single time. Yeah. And I don't want to just make this conversation about Tua,

but he and Patrick Mahones kind of play different sports, you know? Yes. And it's not just, oh, we're going to see nine. for Tyree Kill disappear because I don't think that that's entirely his game and that's, you know, misidentifying the route runner that Tyree Kill is. But just the depth of everything, if we take from what Tua did last year, it's drastically different. I mean, Tyreek had the shortest A dot of his career since his rookie season last year.

And that was at 11. Jalen Waddle's A.7, okay? Tyreek, maybe one of his lowest totals throughout his career, 25 deep targets, 20 plus yards down the field. Jaylen Wado had nine. Devante Parker had, excuse me, Jaylon Wado had 12, Devante Parker had nine.

Two chiefs were already at 13 and 12 on their own. Like, it's not just go routes and that's it. But again, the depth of everything is going to be a little bit shorter. And I also think, one, Mike McDaniel is smart enough to change the offense for Tua and how they're going to succeed. And I would love to hear maybe what you think that's going to be. But I also don't believe,

and I'm not one of these people that think that like Tua can do what Jimmy did. because the middle of the field is difficult to throw to. And all the warts that we all said about Jimmy's game, you have to be aggressive, assertive, have an arm and have a lot of trust to throw over the trash that's in the middle of the field. And Tua hasn't shown that yet. And so if we're just banking on Tyreek getting some Debo stuff in terms of yards of the catch over the middle, so on and so forth,

I don't think that lines up. And then we don't even obviously get the huge extended sports center highlight real plays that Patchman Holmes makes outside of structure that Tyree Kill runs behind two deep safeties and boom, he's off to the races. You bringing up Devo, I think, is instructive because they're getting drafted in the same range. If I'm picking between those two guys, I'm going Debo every single time. I'm with you.

Every single time. Just because we know exactly what the usage is going. Even if he runs the ball less, we know that team has a plan for him. We have seen that in practice. Even if we're not super down on Tua, I still think the fit there and the role and how the targets end up getting distributed. There's just so many questions associated with that team that it's hard for me to pull the trigger in that range when there are guys that bring so much more certainty. I think at receiver and with the running backs, you could be drafted in the exact same spots. Yeah, I mean, too, it was 35th and percent of us pass attempts that traveled 20 plus yards down the field. Again, maybe things change with a better offensive line, a new play caller. I'm not down. The dolphins are going to be so much more fun this year. And I want people to be excited about it. But and Tyreek is not just a vertical. outrunner. But again, everything's going to be pulled down just a little bit.

And that's not even factoring in where Jalen Wadle's going is also the wide receiver 18. And it all gets messy because Jalen Waddle is a really fun and exciting player. And hopefully we get to see him a bit more often, you know, put his head down, stride out and create massive plays. So that is, those are circumstances we're a little bit concerned about just because of the uncertainty. Is there a player whose circumstances have improved more than we're giving it credit for? somebody who's in such a better situation,

and we need to be thinking and talking about it even more than we are. He was one of these players last year who changed teams and changed offenses. How about Kenny Gallaudet? I mean, he closed last year's draft. We can talk about him and the boring guys you don't want to draft too. He fits a lot of different categories we've mentioned here. He closed last year's draft cycle as the 80th overall player. And it didn't work out.

Obviously, 37 receptions, 521 yards, and no touchdowns. And so he was the wide receiver 37, last year's draft and now you're getting him as the wide receiver of 57. The biggest difference for him is his best years in Detroit. All of his targets were very even. It was 33% deep, 33% intermediate, 33% short. He's never going to be one of these separators. He's absolutely one of these downfield contested catch players.

But last year, because the Giants, one, couldn't block anyone, two, had Jason Garrett and Freddie Kitchens calling plays. Three, only had Daniel Jones for half the season. and Mike Glennon, whoever else for the rest, they only threw the ball 19% down the field. And if we just get Brian Dayball, aggressive passer, Evan Neal at right tackle to pair with Andrew Thomas at left tackle, maybe just the all tides, raise all ships,

and Kenny Gallaudet as someone who maybe can fill, and I'm not trying to replicate the Bill's offense, the Giants offense, but a vertical downfield player, his skill set still translates and contest catches. And he just has to win those a bit more often. in this year because he's going to have more opportunities to do it. I think the stink on both him and Cadarius, Tony, there are values for both guys. I love Tony, man.

All the negatives are already baked in. They're already baked in for me. I've heard you talk about it. I totally agree. I mean, there are just so few players you can get with his skill level and his level of explosiveness, all those things at that range in the draft. There just aren't that many guys. And I think the most important thing, you guys have brought up a bunch and is definitely

worth keeping in mind. The Wondell Robinson comparison and what the role is for Wando Robinson does not need to take away from Cadarious Tony. He can play outside. It's not a one for one replacement where there's going to be a cannibalization of what that target and usage look like. I won't dive into it, but a top 20 wide receiver talent is in the soul of Cadarious Tony. And it seems like every single off season, we're going to get some negatives that pop up, whether it be he brought the wrong shoes or he's coming off surgery or something or the other. But as you outlined it in the four to five game sample when he was lining up outside,

inside, he just moved differently, man. And no one can stick with him, whether it be the Saints defensive backs, the Rams defensive backs, whoever else. He's the separator on the outside. And then it's Sterling Shepherd who's still coming off a significant injury or Wondell Robinson in the slot. Giants are pretty easy to stack. And it should be at least a fun offense to do that.

Evan, is there somebody for you that you think there's circumstances? have improved to the point where we're not talking about it enough. I think it's Alan Robinson. And I know we talked about him earlier on the show, but, you know, people are reticent to draft him because of last year. And I understand that. And he's starting to get a little bit older. But, I mean, he's not past his prime.

And, you know, I think that Matthew Stafford is a teammate elevator, as we saw last year with Cooper Cup. Rams are going to score a ton of points. Alan Robbins is going to catch a ton of touchdowns. Last thing I wanted to ask you guys, just going back to one of the decisions that people might have to make, somebody I know that you're super high on Evan. I was talking to my brother yesterday and we're talking about that second wave of running backs that you're going to have to dig through. And three guys going in a fairly similar range are Aaron Jones, Sequin Barkley and Giovante Williams. If you were facing that decision, Evan, and thinking about those three guys, how would you kind of untangle that choice?

I mean, I think that it's Aaron Jones clearly, based on my top. I know you're doing. That's why I asked you. Right. Based on my top 150. I mean, first of all, Aaron Jones is my favorite second round pick. And you can consistently get him in the second round. If you look at his production historically, which is about a seven game sample over the past three years when Devante Adams is out of the lineup, Aaron Jones is an absolute monster. I mean, they run the offense through Aaron Jones. You know, I mean, they, My comparison for him, really, and I don't think he gets as much credit as Alvin Camara, but from a skill set standpoint has been Alvin Camara. Because he can win in the passing game. He's a guy that you want on the field in scoring position. I mean, they will throw fades to Aaron Jones. You know, he will get targeted in the red zone. He will get carries in the red zone.

Again, I think the Packers are going to control games this year within that division. I think Aaron Jones is going to crush. Can you square that with your enthusiasm for A.J. Dillon? Yeah, because they're the top two players in the offense beyond Aaron Rogers. You know, they should not be running this offense through Alan Lazzard or Sammy Watkins or Big Bob Tanya. You know, they can run the offense through Aaron Jones and AJ Dillon and they can both eat. How about you, Josh? If you're looking at those three guys and you're just kind of going through it in your head, how are you talking to yourself?

What does your inner monologue sound like? So the two were Aaron Jones, Sequin Barkland. Who was the third? Javante Williams. Javante's kind of tough. and I opened this conversation by saying only five backs played 60 plus percent and only 170 percent of snaps. I think actually both where Javante is going and Melvin Gordon is going is running back

33, both makes sense. And the like the high range outcomes of each are absolutely there. And how Javante breaks tackles at a ludicrous rate, it's tough not to get excited. But the name I have to go back to despite just talking about the wide receivers and the team is Saquin Barkley. Like anytime I talk about on the show or tweet, you are 100% going to get a response. Oh, you just like to draft injured players.

Like he's not going to be in your roster by week six, week seven, week eight, whatever. I'm not in the business. I don't wear a lab coat, you know, of predicting these fluke injuries like he had last year,

when rolling an ankle on a route, then once again reagravating it, walking back to the huddle when it looked like he had two softballs on either side. Like that is not a lasting. This is not a multiple ligament injury like we're talking about with J.K. Dobbins. And his backup running back right now is Matt Brita. okay it's matt bretah fun player exciting has a history with brian dayball but it's so clear that if

sayquine is healthy sequin is the dude and i don't want to overlook this not only were there bad play callers last year robber but you know this daniel jones gets blinders on in the pocket but just having evan neal if he is good immediately and your left tackle and Andrew thomas who made huge leaps and strides forward last year and improvements along the interior too i just think this offense can take a huge step forward with how Brian Dayball even back to his days at Alabama when he had all those running backs. It was a run first approach. And then you change everything around Josh Allen and make that offense what it was. I think he's going to be able to pick out the best pieces. As much as I love Cadarious Tony, man, Sequin is the unquestioned best talent on that Giants team. If we're excluding

injury and it's just about circumstances, we, you can't say what you said about Cadarius Tony and Kenny Gallaudet two minutes ago, you and I and not say the same thing about Seekwan Barkley. And especially because even with after the Evaniel thing, they signed Mark Lewinsky in Free Agency. They signed John Feliciano. These aren't like the biggest names in professional football. But we talk about incremental gains at some of these positions. Those are incremental gains on the interior of the offensive line. Combined with an offensive line coach in Bobby Johnson, I think, did a very good job in Buffalo.

All of those things are reasons to get excited about what Sakea on Barkley can do and bring it all the way back to the beginning of the conversation. There's uncertainty about all of those guys at the top at that position. So you have somebody with Sequant's physical profile, somebody's probably being underdrafted because of the way the last couple seasons have gone, and we think the circumstances of the offense could be vastly improved, you could draft him as running back 10 and easily get one, two, three results by the end of the year. I wouldn't be surprised by that at all. Yep, I'm with you.

All right, guys, thank you very, very much for doing this. Always great to chat with both of you. I'm feeling better about that league. That is the only thing that I care about. And that's all that really mattered by the time. we were finished with this show. Guys, please go check out the work that both these guys are doing at Underdog and establish the run.

I'm not even kidding. This is the football content I consume the most over the course of the season is what these two guys are doing. My fiance gives me shit because Evans matchups column that he does, they do an audio version of it. And I'll just be sitting there on Sundays and I'll be cooking breakfast or doing something. And it'll be playing in our house. And she's like, it's like listening to the stock ticker, but for football. I was like, yeah, I need to know what's going on right now. So I'm telling you, but if you are not, if you're a fantasy player and are not engaging with the stuff that these two are putting out, you are making significant mistakes.

So correct yourself. Please start doing that. Gentlemen, thank you very much for the time. Of course, Robert. Thanks so much. Evan, awesome talking with you too. Absolutely. All right, guys, that's all we got for today.

We'll be back tomorrow. We're going to start talking about training camp. Training camp is around the corner. start looking forward to some of the storylines, the battles, all of that. That's very much on the horizon. So please come back and check that out. In the meantime, please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform with choice. Please subscribe to the athletic.com slash football show.

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Talk to you soon. This was the Athletic Football Show.