The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - 2022 NFL Draft: Brugler & Zierlein exclusive with Reese's Senior Bowl Executive Director Jim Nagy ahead of game & 2021 Draft rewind

Episode Date: January 26, 2022

Dane Brugler and NFL.com draft analyst Lance Zierlein sit down with Reese's Senior Bowl Executive Director Jim Nagy ahead of a big week in Mobile. They discuss the interview process for prospects, under-the-radar guys to watch and expectations for the QBs. Then, Robert Mays joins the show to talk about the 2021 NFL rookie class.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome back. I'm Dane Bruegler, joined with my buddy, NFL.com's Lance Zerlein. This is the athletic football show. On today's show, Jim Nagy, executive director of the Senior Bowl, joins us, talk about the upcoming All-Star game, and then Robert Mays hops on for a look in the rear-view mirror at this past season. The rookies at impress. The rookies at surprise. We'll take a look at my mock draft.

So this is going to be a good chance to reflect on the players we were talking about at this point last year. But first, let's get to our conversation with Jim Nagy. All right, happy to be joined by the executive director of the Resey Senior Bowl, Mr. Jim Nagy. Jim, we're just days away from players, scouts, media, arriving immobile. So we really appreciate your time today. Yeah, Dane Lance, thanks for having me on again, guys.

I appreciate it. I think we have to start with the quarterbacks. You know, you look around the league, you see a number of senior bowl alums who are starting quarterbacks, guys like Josh Allen, Justin Herbert, Mac Jones from last year, Jalen Hertz, Dak Prescott, you can go on and on. This year, it's interesting with six quarterbacks. All six have a chance to be top 100 picks, and a few of these guys are going to be competing for spots in the first round, and how they perform at the Senior Bowl is going to be a part of that evaluation. So if you're an NFL team, and you know, you're a longtime NFL scout,

and if you were a scout with a team that needs a quarterback, how do you see this week going for these quarterbacks in terms of how are you approaching it from a scouting perspective? What do you want to see from them? I know we have six very different quarterbacks, but just generally speaking, what do you want to see from these quarterbacks this week? Yeah, I think it's going to be a great evaluated week for those guys.

You know, you're going to get to see them one after the other on both teams, one rap after the next. So it's about as close to apples as apples as possible. I think there's great takeaways for the position always. You know, we had Sam Howell and Bailey Zappi. We're down in the office watching tape yesterday. And just the things they're going to be asked to do during our week that they're getting ready for right now, just talking to their quarterback trainer, you know, just working from under center,

spitting out verbiage. I mean, there's just a lot of things they're going to be asked to do here that they weren't asked to do in college. When you talk about a guy like Sam or Malik Willis, he's going to be down here with a really good supporting cast, which neither of those guys really had this year at their two schools. So I think that really, you know, that, that, you know, impacts their evaluation. Just like you did with Justin Herbert and Josh Allen coming out. You know, those guys didn't have great, great people around them. So they were trying to do a lot on their own.

So, yeah, this is going to be a really clean evaluation, kind of, you know, one after the other. And if I was an NFL evaluator, I'd be really looking forward to this week because there's going to be a ton of great takeaways. One of the things that I think you've done a great job, and I think it's your background, as a scout really helps you here is it's so efficient. Like the efficiency, it's gotten better over the years under Phil Savage, but then I think you've taken it to another level. Maybe even COVID has helped you even fine-tune it a little bit more, Jim. Can you talk about the efficiency of getting as much done in as concise an amount

of time between two different practices as you possibly can during this week? Yeah, Lance, I appreciate to saying that. I would start with the coaching staff. how they structure their practices, you know, are a huge part of that deal, you know, when you're talking about just the crispness and the tempo between drills and trying to get a lot in. I mean, yeah, you bring up COVID. I think COVID really helped us take a step back and evaluate how we're doing the whole operation. So I think from an efficiency standpoint with the teams, the interview process is going to be much different than it's been in the past. You know,

it's kind of been a free-for-all down here. And really, we're trying to make this a great experience, for our players. That's why, like, we added a recovery room three years ago for the guys. That had never really been done an all-star game. And I think that's been a huge ad for our guys that they can, you know, come get with massage therapists and get worked out after practice and in the mornings. But this year, the interview process is going to be all structured. There's going to be no more of that chaos at the players hotel where they can't even get from the elevators to breakfast in the morning without, you know, an area scout jumping on their back for an interview. So they're going to have 14 and a half hours of structured interview time for the week. If there will be five different interview blocks, if teams do it right and plan accordingly, they're going to be able to get with every Ghana roster four different times for over an hour. So, you know, again, this is just the first stage of the process.

They'll have combine and pro days and 30 visits as well. But if you're leaving Mobile and you've spent over an hour with a player, I mean, that's a really good groundwork moving forward through the rest of the process. So, yeah, we're just trying to, as we go every year, we're trying to tweak this thing and make it better, especially for our players and the teams. That's really who we're here to serve is the prospects and the teams, and hopefully we'll get better every year at that. Jim, a player that I really had zero knowledge of over the summer,

but really impressed me this year was Kirby Joseph at Illinois. Love his play range. He credits volleyball, his volleyball background for his reaction quickness. And I graded him as a top four-round player. But what about for you? Who has been a surprise for you this season? A player who maybe wasn't really on the radar for whatever reason over the summer, but he emerged throughout a senior year and earned himself a senior bowl invite.

Yeah, Kirby was one of those guys for us too. It kind of helps with Michael Carrower, our DFO. You know, came here from Orlando and Kirby's from that area. So Michael knew a lot of the guys that have worked with Kirby and his background. That kind of helped help him get on our radar here, you know, because Mike didn't join us. until August. So that was a cool piece of the evaluation process for us. We kind of intimate knowledge of Kirby's background. I would say, you know, I'm kind of cheating right now. You see me looking up. I'm looking at the board, which is right behind the computer here. But, you know, some of the

smaller school guys, Cole Strange is a guy that really popped for us in the game against Kentucky. Nick Sekel from Fordham popped in that game against Nebraska. Those guys really played their in with those games. We saw we needed to see when they stepped up in that level of comp. I think that, you know, Abram Smith, the running back at Baylor was a big surprise for us. You know, a guy that ended last year playing linebacker. I really think you could go position by position and really, you know, really earmark a couple of these guys. So, yeah, I mean, just off the time I'm ahead, there's a few guys. I'd say DeMarco Jackson at App State is a guy that popped for us this fall. I love DeMarco's game. I just love the way he plays, love his intensity,

he loves his instincts, his physicality. So, yeah, there's always skies at every position that, you know, you might even be luke warm on them in the summer and be aware of them. And then you get into the season and, man, they take off. I think there's a lot of guys in this year's game play their way in based off their 2021 take. I think two of the positions that really stand out to me on your roster because just for my process, I start off by trying to write senior bowl caliber guys because I know

they'll be invited to the combine. and I've got to write 500 players. And if they get drafted and I don't have a profile, I got to write it after the draft. So I want to nail it as much as I can. And so I'm pretty acutely aware of all the guys now that are in the senior ball. I've written almost all of them. I just think that the tight ends are a good position this year. There's a lot of depth and some solid blockers as well in this year's draft.

But really the safeties. Brian Cook is a guy that I watched. And I said, wow, I'm looking. I think I felt like I was looking at Julian Blackman with the, with the Colts, the Colts version of it. He's big, he's strong, he's a physical player. He can line up over the corner and line up over the slot. And I think one of the thing that's interesting about college football and about the

senior ball now is it's a hybrid game. So hybrid players are playing the sport. And you've got an opportunity to showcase them at a variety of alignments, both offensively and defensively, don't you? Yeah, we do. I think the league as a whole is to do. a much better job of using hybrid players. I think going back to my background in the NFL for a lot of years there,

you bring up the word hybrid. It was more almost carried a little bit of a negative connotation. Okay, what is he? So I'll give the coaching styles. I think this new wave of younger coach in the league has done a really good job of playing to these guys skill sets and being open-minded with it. So yeah, you bring up a couple names that staying like Julian Blackman was a guy that was going to come here and playing the senior bowl towards ACL,

I believe, is in the Pac-12 championship game that year. here on the turf in Santa Clara. And then we lost Brian Cook earlier this month. He had a procedure done after the season. So he can't play the game. But just speaking to Brian, you know, he was sitting behind two NFL safeties. They had James Wiggins last year and James Forrest. Both those guys got drafted.

I know their safeties coach there at Cincinnati really well. We worked on the same staff in Kansas City together. And he gave us an early heads up over the summertime that what he thought Brian Cook could be. And really, I felt like he was one of the most improved players. in this year's class, really from beginning to end of the season. He's a guy to me that felt like he was getting better up into the middle of the year, and then he had an injury thing. But really, like that first six weeks of the year,

he kind of saw him get incrementally better every week. I think he's one of the most fiscal safeties in the class. I think he's one of the best tackling safeties in the draft. And he really showed more playmaking ability than he'd showed in the past. So a good player, man. I wish we had him coming to here in a mobile, but Brian's going to be a good pro. I want to follow up with one quick question. And I don't know the answer to this, but in writing up Marcus Jones, the cornerback from University of Houston, Twitchy, we know all the athletic traits and characteristics, elite return man.

That word's used too often. He truly is an elite return talent. He's also going to be a little smaller and more likely a slot corner than outside. I turned on his wide receiver tape in Houston, and I was like, whoa. It's kind of serious at wide receiver, too. his separation talent is no different when he's moving forward than when he's a return guy. Any chance a player like that, a team can say, hey, Jim, we'd love to see him get some reps at wide receiver where he didn't get a lot of reps in college because we want to get the ball

on his hands as much as possible. How often do teams impose upon you? We'd like to see this guy play center or this linebacker, you know, play edge or this edge play linebacker. How often does that happen? Well, yeah, Marcus Jones, first of all, that's one of my favorite players in this draft. You nailed him. I mean, that kid is a baller, no matter where you put him, all three phases. I think he could be a legitimate two-way guy. You know, not the teams do that anymore, but he could do it. He can play in the slot. He can play outside. He can play safety. They've played him back there. I mean, he's just, guy,'s just a football player. But yeah, that's a good question, Lance, about the position versatility and things of that nature.

We go over that. You know, we go over that with the GMs when their rosters are kind of set. and we'll go over that with the staffs when they come down here and kind of give our recommendations on how we saw the player. We kind of have those discussions. But once they step on the practice field on Tuesday, that's up to the coaching staffs. I'm not going to insert myself after that. You know, we kind of say our piece on the player where we think that, you know, where they should be cross-trained. And sometimes those conversations happen with the agents as well. We want to make sure that they're on board. Like Robert Hainsey last year, Quinn Miners, those were those were. Those were, guys that had never snapped in a competitive environment in their life.

So for them to come down here and ask them to do that without the okay of the player and the representative, like we would never do that. But, you know, those guys jumped in and they were, I mean, Robert Hainsey probably went from the sixth round to the third round last year with what he did at center. I felt like Robert looked more natural playing center than he ever looked at tackler guard. And Quinn the same way. And, you know, I'll say this too, guys, like, that's what the All-Star Games are about. It's about showing things that, you know, that you don't get to show on tape.

You know, the league can pop in tape on Quinn Miners and watch him play guard in Division 3. But like, let's see him play center. Same thing with a lot of these guys. You know, in this year's game, there's going to be a lot of corners playing some safety. Like Alante Taylor from Tennessee, one of the most physical defensive backs in this year's draft. And he's just got that innate aggression that you want from the safety position.

He's one of the most physical run support guys, corner, safety in the draft. so we're going to put him back there and let him play some safety. And again, let him show that. To me, there's so much value to teams to letting them see something that haven't seen on college tape yet, we'd be remiss if we didn't do that. It's not about putting them in a position that the league has seen them play. Sometimes it's about putting them in a position that I haven't seen them play

and let them prove that versatility. You mentioned the coaches. This year, the Jets, the Lions coaching staffs will be handling the coaching duties. From your perspective, what are the advantages for those two teams, those two coaching staffs, being able to be hands-on with this group of players so early in the process? Does it give them a little bit of a leg up? From your perspective, what's that advantage like? Yeah, I think it is an advantage.

I think it should be an advantage. You know, I think the league has been really smart to use the senior bowl as that game is, you know, kind of rewarding the teams that had a tough year. You know, they start with the draft order. And I think all you got to do is go back a couple of. years ago with the 49ers that came down here drafting. It was the Raiders year. So one was picking two, one was picking four. I can't remember which. But the very next year, they were in Miami for the Super Bowl. And that's why, you know, Robert Salomey, those t-shirts made up in the NFC Championship Game locker

room, the Mobile to Miami T-shirts. So, and you look at Cincinnati, just a couple years ago, they were down here in the game. And they were, they had the number one overall pick. So, you know, they obviously nailed it with Joe Burrow, but they got a bunch of guys like Logan Wilson and Hakeem Davis Gather out of our game and Hakeem Adensi. I mean, they got good players here. So I think it's a really smart move. It's kind of that one of those mechanisms for parity that people sometimes overlook. I mean, that's why the NFL is great.

You know, again, every year, start of every year, most fan bases feel like their team has a shot, right? Like I grew up a Lions fan in the 80s and the 70s. Like I felt like the Lions had a shot every year. So no, it is an advantage. Just like having meals with these guys every day, seeing him behind the scenes, how they're interacting with teammates, how they are in the meeting room, not just like can they learn, but how do they learn? You know, how attentive are they in meetings? You know, are they on their

phone all the time? There's so many little takeaways from being behind the scenes that those teams really do benefit. And for the 30 teams that don't have that advantage, that's why we're plugging in for HPCU coaches this year. You know, there'll be two on each staff. And those guys are going to be, you know, we've already had a call with those guys and they're going to take diligent notes. They're going to be in the player meetings every night. They're going to be in the staff meetings every night. They're going to be on the field with these guys. So they're going to take diligent notes all week. So then they'll have the other 30 GMs reaching out to these four individuals after our week's over. And they can fill them in on some of the behind the scene stuff. So it's not totally

out of whack. You know, there's been a little feedback from the other teams like, hey, is this really fair? I think it is fair because it is a built-in thing for parity. But one of the things we're doing this year with the HBCU coach is going to be great. And hopefully it creates opportunities for those four men. If they do want to get in the NFL, hopefully this helps make some connections for them. Jim, can you talk about the pass rush? One of the things that stood out is there's some freaky athletic rush talent.

And, you know, it's kind of one of these things where I'm seeing guys who aren't great against the run, but they have this splashy rush talent. You know that run stuff can develop as well. Can you go through some of the past rushers, Sanders, Dominique Robinson? And there's a lot of guys who are long-limbed, long-levered, very intrigued. I just watched Isaiah Thomas from Oklahoma yesterday, who's got some rush to him. Can you talk about some of the pass rushers in this year's class? Because I think there's some upside.

They're not polished necessarily, but there's definitely upside in this class, especially in your game. Yeah, you know, everyone's going to talk about start at the quarterback class, and I get it. You know, there's some really talented guys in that group, and they're going to go high, and it's so unsettled right now. It's probably going to drive the narrative through the process like it does every year. Everyone wants to talk about the QBs. But this past rush group, I think, might be our best group top to bottom. I think there's a lot of top 50 players in that group.

I mean, you touched on a couple of them. Maje Sanders from Cincinnati, I think it's going to have an unbelievable week with his get-off and his first step. I think he's going to be a hard guy for guys to set on. You know, Kingsley and Iqbore, Arnold Evacetti from Penn State, Jermaine Johnson, Florida State, Cam Thomas, the Mountain West defensive player of the year out of San Diego State. DeAngelo Malone, the Conference USA, two-time conference USA defensive player of the year. So Amari Barno from Virginia Tech is another long guy.

You brought up Dominique Robinson from Miami, Ohio. It's from top to bottom, a really good group. The one-on-one periods are always fun down here. I feel like this year's group, again, with our tackle class. I think our tackle class is really good, too. There's going to be some good battles. Well, and that's what I wanted to touch on the tackles. You know, Trevor Penning, you can make the argument. It might be the best player there. It's going to be, like you said, some fun battles. What about this tackle class?

Who among these tackles are you excited to see face off against these pass rushers? Yeah, you bring up Trevor. And, you know, he was the first guy we invited this year. We kind of flew up there with one of our sponsors, walk-ons, and we gave Trevor's invite. And I relayed to him. I mean, he probably doesn't even remember the 2000. and I think it was the 2012 draft or 11 draft.

I was with the Chiefs at the time. And it was the Luke Jockel, Lane Johnson, Eric Fisher draft. And I told him, I said, Trevor, Eric Fisher came down here from Central Michigan. It's a late one, early two, probably similar to the grades where Trevor's at for most teams right now. He came down here at a phenomenal week and he went number one overall. And in a year where there's not like that clear cut top 10, I just hear a lot of the narrative, you know, in the media right now is there's, not that clear top five or top 10. I think Trevor's got a chance to really climb.

All we need to do is see him block future NFL people, which you really didn't get a chance to do in Northern Iowa. I mean, the best player he went up against his entire career is probably Ellerson Smith, who we went against in practice every day, who was in last year's Senior Bowl. So, yeah, you know, you got like Daring Kinnard, Abe Lucas from Washington State. God, don't want to leave me with like, Filetle from Minnesota, Max Mitchell at Louisiana, Bernard Raymond at Central Michigan. It's a deep group.

I mean, again, just like I said about the rushers, there's a lot of potential top 50 picks in that tackle class. We're seeing a lot of guys, Jim, go from tight end to, like, interestingly enough, Trevor pending Spencer Brown, who both came from Northern Iowa. Both those guys gained close to 100 pounds when they were at Northern Iowa, and I think both of them started as tight ends. I know that Spencer Brown, I believe, was at a high school at least. You got a couple guys from Central Michigan that I thought were very intrigued.

Reagan, who you mentioned, who I think has a lot of upside. It reminds me a little bit. I'm probably being lazy by comparing him to Sebastian Volmer because of the German thing. But he's got a lot of talent. And Luke Gadeke, the opposite, he was also a tight-in who became a tackle and maybe a guard on the next level. I think these are two guys who maybe deserve a little bit more conversation from people looking at offensive linemen. Yeah, Bernard's got a lot of buzz this fall. You know, we kind of got on him early last spring and started to crank out some content about Raymond.

He's made a nice jump. You know, he's a really cool story coming from Austria, being a foreign exchange student, all those things. I mean, the tight end to tackle conversion is really cool. And I think he's going to be in that top 50 mix. But the interesting thing, you know, there's even a scout on our staff. And then some guys around the league have made the comment that they think Luke Godecki might end up being the better pro. You know, I think Luke's going to cross. train at center guard and tackle down here.

He brings a lot of versatility. He played tight end his first year in college at Wisconsin-Stevens Point, which a lot of people don't know, and then transfer to Central Michigan, like you said, kept growing. But I really think the interesting part, you know, talking about these two guys, if you look at our offensive line class this year and the different helmets that will be on the field, whether it's, you know, North Dakota, Northern Iowa, Fordham, Tulsa, Memphis, Central Michigan, Southern Utah. I mean, you're seeing a lot of smaller school group of five helmets compared to power fives.

And I think those schools are doing a great job of identifying the high school tight end, being patient in their development. And by the time they become seniors, you're just dealing with a higher baseline athlete than some of these power five. They want to get the ready made 6, 6, 320 pounder out of high school, you know, who may have heavier feet, who might not bend as well, but they just want the big body that can get in there and play right away. I think you're seeing kind of a shift. Some of these smaller school guys are really intriguing players.

And I hate the word intriguing. I can't believe it just came out of my mouth. But really good prospects, as I should say, they're good prospects. And guys, they're going to be NFL starters coming from lower level schools. Listen, Dana and I write a zillion profiles every year. You can also use alluring and enticing or some other synonyms that you can use to mix it up. I do have the source bookmarked on my.

my Google tabs. You have to. Yeah, you got to change up your terms. The worst thing you can do is be a fence rider when you're a scout. And saying a guy's intriguing is like the ultimate fence rider statement. So you've got to stay away from that. Dane, he makes,

but Jim makes a good point, Dane, and I trust your offensive line analysis as well. You know, it's funny is you look at Raymond and you look at, well, I think you look at both central Michigan tackles. Goddeky, as you mentioned, Raymond,

but also Trevor Penning, the first thing you're going to notice is that from a technical standpoint, their technique is better than a lot of offensive linemen who came in with four and five-star designations at classic Power Five colleges. A lot of times you'll notice that the smaller school guys, their technique ends up being better as well. Yeah. Well, and I think it also, it points to, sorry to interrupt you there, Jim,

it points to these guys coming on later to the position, right? So they weren't always just bigger and dominating the guy across from them. They were late to the position. So they had to learn the technique. They had to really focus on the fundamentals. So is that kind of what you're seeing too, Jim? Yeah, that's a really good point, Dane, really good point. You know, they had to survive on technique while the bulk and the strength caught up, no doubt.

I was just going to give a shout-up to Ryan Clanton in northern Iowa. You know, he played at Oregon, was a really good player. I got to know Ryan last year when we had Spencer Brown in the game. But I jokingly say this, but I can't imagine it's not true. Has there ever been a better set of bookend tackles coming from a low, you know, an FCS level than Spencer Brown and Trevor Penning? They've got to be the best bookend set ever. But Ryan Clanton does a tremendous job.

And those guys are. I mean, there's good, there's great coaching at every level. And again, like that's a great point, Lance. Like these guys are, you know, that's why I haven't described any of these guys as raw. You know, like they're like none of the, I wouldn't call any of these guys raw. Their coaches have done a tremendous job with them. Well, we can talk to you for a few more hours, but we'll, we'll let you go. I'm looking at my window at about 15 inches of snow here in Ohio.

So to say I'm excited for my trip down to Alabama here in a few days. That would be an understatement. So thank you again, my friend. We're going to see you here in about a week and we're really looking forward to it. Yeah, thank you guys. Thank you enough. Thanks for everything you do, kind of spotlighting our game and our players. and look forward to getting you down here.

Be good to be there. Thanks, Jim. Okay, we're joined now by Robert Mays, who between seeing that Bill's Chiefs Instant Classic, plus all the barbecue you've consumed, I'd say it's been a pretty productive Kansas City trip for you. It hasn't been too bad. I got to spend some time with Mitchell Schwartz yesterday. That episode is on the feed today on Tuesday,

if you guys want to check it out. It was good to record with him in person. I've legitimately felt hung over the last two days without consuming a drop of alcohol. I had an emotional hangover on Monday after the game, and I had a meat hangover this morning after all of the beef ribs that we ate last night. So I felt like absolute garbage for the last two days, despite living a wonderful life.

Meat hangover is a real thing, by the way. I mean, that's a real thing. It's two different highs right there. It's been great. It's been great. I've paid for it both mornings. Yeah. All right.

Well, we wanted to bring you on to talk about some rookies. we kind of reflect on the past draft class. But first, I did want to touch real quick. This is what I can do, which I appreciate. This is the draft conversation I can have. You guys really catering to me here. First, I did want to touch on my mock draft that came out last week. For those listening, haven't checked it out yet.

You can find it on the athletic site, full two rounds. But real quick from each of you, I wanted to get one pick, one projection that stood out to you. be either a surprise or something that you found interesting. So Robert, want to start with you. I mean, I'll start at the top. Ike McWano, is that how you pronounce it? Yeah, it's close, pretty close. Ikem Iquam, Iquanu, yeah.

Equino, I'm going number one to Jacksonville, I think it speaks to the conversation that we've had about this draft class that you guys had on your first episode about just how muddled it is at the top and how many different ways it can go and how bunched up these guys are. Because when I saw his name, you know, I recognize it because I'm, friends with Brandon Thorne. But if I weren't friends with Brandon Thorne and I didn't see tweets about this guy already,

I probably would have been a little bit more shocked. So why do you think that is a possibility? Why do you think that he's in the running? What do you think that says about this class in general? I mean, just kind of break it down for me. Well, I think it speaks to just the uncertainty of the top 10 this year. I mean, this kind of sums it up right here with having a Kwanu at one. And I think when you look at it, talking to teams around the league that different people

there's a lot of people that think Iquanu is the top tackle this year. Or they have them closely rated with Alabama's Evan Neal or even Mississippi State's Charles Cross. But Iquanu's right there in the mix to be the first tackle drafted. And then you talk to some of the same people. And they're looking at the past rushers, specifically Aidan Hutchinson, Kvon Thibodeau. And they'd rather take a chance on these tackles than the past rushers. So just using that reasoning, I kind of look at Iquanoo and saying, hey, this guy's got a legitimate Lance. Obviously, Jacksonville didn't have a head coach yet. So there's a lot of things they have

to figure out, number one. But a guy like Icky, he's going to be in the conversation there. And, you know, Lance, I know, you're not as high as Iquanoo as you are, Neil, but you still like him. Would that shock you if Icky ended up going number one? Well, I think it would shock me just because I think when it comes to historically first pick of the draft profile for tackles, it's a much, much more polished player than Ike is right now. I think his ceiling's very high. I just think he has room. He has a lot of work to do with his past sets.

I think that's my number one concern right now. The talent is there to potentially become, and the mindset 100% is there to become the top tackle in this draft. But typically what we've seen from that profile of tackle, the way it profiles is really polished and advanced type of tackle. And that's really more to me. Evan Neal has more of that, but I don't get the same, I don't get the same juice off of Evan Neal's play. I don't see the same grit and block finishing. And I think he's the biggest most athletic,

most athletic, he's the best combination of athleticism, size and, and understanding of technical football that we have in this draft. But I just don't feel the same juice that I get when I watch Icky play. I went back and watched a little bit more of Charles Cross and maybe a little too high on Charles Cross. I like Charles Cross, but I think maybe the ceiling is maybe a little bit lower than when I wrote him up. I want to.

Is he powerful enough? I think that's the big question, right? Is he powerful enough? I think that's the question. And I think there are some questions about how he handles edge rushers to like true edge speed. He's a little bit of a lean and lunge guy. which all of a sudden sets you up for all kinds of inside counters.

And, you know, that's a concern. But I tell you, the pick that it didn't surprise me, but I want to discuss this with you guys, because it's an organization that has had issues with this pick. And it's David Ajabo, Atlanta Falcons. This is the same organization that has drafted Beasley, that has drafted Tack McKinley. And they want to get it right at Pass Rush,

But now you have, once again, tack was a little bit raw when he came into the league. Beasley, there was concerns about his overall strength and how he would play the run and things like that. And now you put a guy in Ojoabo there who I think has immense upside. But I just found it interesting because you're going to have another organization and fan base saying, whoa, this is a guy who still is a little bit raw. Certainly as a run defender, there's no question about it. unusual amount of advanced knowledge of, you know, as a pass rusher for being as new to the game as he is. But I thought that was an interesting one is how would the organization, the ownership,

and the fan base deal with another edge rusher who's considered a little bit high ceiling, potentially lower floor. Yeah, and that's interesting because obviously there's a new GM, new head coach. And so is there a little bit of carryover from the, you know, Thomas Dimitro? the previous regime that made those picks. David Ajabo, it's funny talking to people around the league. Some are excited and say, hey, I don't blame me for putting him in the top 10 because when it's all said and done, the potential of this guy,

and for what he knows right now and what he's going to be in three years, totally get it. Then you talk to others and they're like, I couldn't take him in the top 20 because he is so raw, because you do have to hide him a little bit as a run defender. So the David Ajabo conversation is something that is going to, going, it's going to be rampant throughout the process because there is going to be split opinion. And, you know, it's kind of like, Jason Owey, who was actually a teammate of David Ojobeau.

David Ojobe basically followed in his footsteps at Blair Academy, you know, quitting basketball, taking on football, learning this new sport. But with Oway, who was, I think, what, 31st pick, I think last year's draft, he didn't have the production where with Ojobeau, he had 11 sacks last year. I mean, he was second in the Big Ten behind only his teammate, Aidan Hutchinson, and total sacks. So, you know, he has the production with only five years of experience playing the position. It's going to be a really fun conversation and one that, you know, Robert, I'm excited for you to see OJabo. I know you've seen Hutchinson, obviously, and what he can do.

Have you seen any of OJabo yet? I've watched a little bit. When I was watching those Michigan games near the end of the season, I was much more keyed into Hutchinson than OJabo. But that's something I, of course, I'll dig into here over the next. couple months. It's funny with Atlanta because not even just the draft picks, but they went out and spent on Dante Fowler. It mean, it's just been such a vortex of

disappointment there at that position. I think it might be something cosmic going on with John Abraham. When he goes to a place and then he leaves, you're not allowed to have good pass rushers there for like 10 years. Because it happened with the Jets and the Falcons. So there's something happening there.

Lance, who are the tackles that have gone number one in the last like 10 years? Because it was Fisher. In the last 10 years, there hasn't been that many, right? Fisher's really the one and then Jake Long before that. And I think of Orlando Pace. Yeah, and Long went number one in 08. So that was, those are really the only guys.

And I think that that, your point about them being more polished than Tulsie is really interesting. And I feel like, Dane, talking about those teams in the top 10 being more comfortable with the tackles, where you have some of those tackles going with Neil and Cross, it's organizations that need to write the wrongs that they've performed at that position over the last few years when you think about the giants going out and saying this offseason you know what we need a splashy luxury wide receiver we're just going to leave that right tackle spot alone and then Carolina coming into this year when they could have had they could have had rich on slater and they decide to go with the corner and they have an unacceptable offensive line in the NFL is how I would describe that unit for them this year so it's funny that that they

now have the opportunity these three teams if they want to to just say, you know what, let's not overthink this. We've screwed this position up too many times in the last few years to continue rolling like this. Let's make sure that we lock that down as we start our, I guess, mini rebuild with the Giants, our continual rebuild with Jacksonville, and then whatever the hell the Panthers are doing, which if anyone can explain it to me, I would love it. You saying they had one pick in the top 100 in that mock draft, I winced. I winced at that. It is so, that's horrifying. But that's where they are right now. And that almost precludes you from taking a quarterback there

because it's just you put so much on that pick that you have to absolutely love a guy if you're going to take a quarterback there if you're Carolina. And to your point, talking about the continual rebuild on the offensive line, I almost put Evan Neal at four to the Jets who, you know, Evan Neal, he started at guard at Alabama, started at right tackle, started at left tackle. The Jets need a starting right guard today. He can step in and do that and then be the long-term right tackle. also be Mackay Bechtin insurance in case, you know, the injury stuff there proves to be a long-term issue there.

So, yeah, there's so many storylines that we're going to get into more and more throughout the next few months. But I did want to, you know, touch on, you know, this past draft class. Look in the rearview mirror a little bit. And now that we have a full season of these rookies, you know, we can kind of look back and say, all right, who's surprised, who disappointed, everything in between. So let's just start with who's surprised. from this past rookie class. Robert, start with you. Which rookie or situation or just different opportunity, which surprised you this year from this rookie class?

I think I would still say Mack Jones. I mean, you could say that the other guys surprised in a bad way, if you look at the guys near the top of the draft. But the fact that Mack Jones was the most productive, the most efficient, the best quarterback from this rookie class, a rookie class that we talked about for years. I mean, when these guys were coming into college, we were talking about what this rookie quarterback class would look like with Trevor Lawrence and

Justin Fields. So the fact that Mack Jones kind of comes out of nowhere after all of just the fury in the conversation about are the Niners going to take him at three with all these other guys on the board. How can they possibly do that? And I think overall, you know, when I look at this group, it's just such a reminder of how much situation matters. And you look at just the incubator that New England can be for young quarterbacks because of what a developmental system it is. How much they put on the quarterback, how much they ask of them. And we talk about this a lot. I wrote it last spring before the draft even happened, which teams were most set up to help these guys.

And I still don't think we give enough credence to that or spend enough time on that because it's so tempting to see these guys, especially like Trevor Lawrence, who are these generational type prospects as a cure-all. And that's just never how it goes. So Mac Jones stepping into the best situation, not only with the team picking in the teens, but a team that knows what they're doing, one of the best offensive coaching staffs in the league, maybe it shouldn't be surprising that he was this good. But when you put that up against the rest of this class and those expectations, it still is surprising. You know, I want to follow up. I don't want to say surprise and I want to take it into a different area.

But I think one of the things that we saw, I want to bring up a complete. Paris and see what you guys think because I thought the play of Trevor Lawrence I thought it would be better frankly than it than it was I know it's not a great situation but I still thought the play would be better than it was and more consistent because Davis Mills frankly I watched him here in Houston he didn't have a good situation at all not much of an offensive line zero running game Brandon Cooks is his number one wide receiver and yet he actually outplayed Trevor Lawrence second best rookie quarterback right he was I don't think it's up for debate yeah but I want to get to another guy

and that's Justin Fields. And it really started to remind me when all the fans were clamoring, Andy Dalton must go. It must be Justin Fields. Do it. And the media and everyone was beating down the bears that it had to be Justin Fields. I watched David Carr come into Houston. I was a young guy doing sports talk radio,

just started doing NFL draft stuff. And I watched David Carr come into a situation with the same size, athleticism and frankly, talent of Justin Fields. David Carr was a really talented guy who checked a lot of boxes. He got behind an offensive line that couldn't protect him at all. He got beat up. They installed him too early. The plan was originally to have Kent Graham be the quarterback.

They ended up saying, just forget it, David, you be the guy. He got beat to smithereens, and they started to drop his eyes. He really didn't look down the field. I think it hurt his NFL career being. thrown to the wolves too early for a team that wasn't ready to protect him. And I'm looking at Justin Fields, and I can't help but see the same potential situation. And I think that's why you have to be, I want to get you guys' thoughts on this. But Robert, the idea that you have to be willing to stick to your process and your plan

and not allow media and fan base to rush the process of whatever you think you need to do that's best for the long-term growth of your quarterback. I remember having a conversation with Greg Olson, who was the Raiders offensive coordinator, and about the rookie year that Jared Goff had. And because they came in after that and kind of looked at what Goff was going through and what that season looked like.

And he said to me, you want a guy to get experience, but you don't want to deal with someone who has scar tissue. And they felt like golf started the right amount of games that year to kind of thread that needle, where it wasn't so bad and so deep. detrimental to his development that they were lingering effects, but he got to see the game. And that's always the balance that you're trying to find, right? You want to get a guy in there

so he can get those reps under his belt, but you don't want it to be detrimental to who he's going to be. That was always my concern with the Justin Fields thing. That's why I wanted Andy Dalton started the beginning of the year. It's why I was fine with it because I didn't want him to take steps back because he was the type of guy that wasn't going to protect himself. And that is, if we talk about David Carr dropping his eyes, that to me is the solid. I take in the Justin Fields experience is that still by the end of the year, he's hunting for big plays. He is, you can say a lot about Justin Fields.

I still am pretty bullish on what he can be in the right situation because he does not flinch. To his own detriment, sometimes, he does not flinch. But I totally agree. I think that there are absolutely those concerns. And I was worried about that. I was worried about the infrastructure in Chicago period. When they drafted him, my first thought was, that's great, right? You have to make this move.

It's almost necessary to go get a guy like this. I loved him as a prospect. This doesn't change who those guys are that have been in the building for the last four or five years. The coaching staff is the same. The front office is the same. Matt Nagy is not a different person because the bears lucked into Justin Fields. And you saw that. You saw a team that did not have a plan for him, did not know how to protect him.

And I'm just hoping that, again, that scar tissue didn't develop to such an extent that it's going to linger into next year if they find the right support system and the right infrastructure for him. And one of the ripple effects of having five quarterbacks go top 15 and all the hype and all the chatter around these guys is to see, okay, what do the teams do now this next off season to build around those quarterbacks? Whether it's coaching hires or what they're doing, you know, the Jets need to find a number one receiver. I don't know how, you know, what it's going to look like.

the Jets need to get more help for for Zach Wilson. You know, what do the Bears do to get better on the offensive line? So it's really going to be interesting to see how these franchises move forward when they think they have their quarterback. How do they build around them? And so that's just going to be a really interesting talking point. To pivot a little bit, my biggest surprise. I think the one thing, I would say that I want to say just really quickly, there is a blueprint

to me. And it's what the Chargers did this offseason. You draft a tackle in the first round. You go get a free agent center for your rookie quarterback. The Corey Lindley piece of what the Chargers did to me is the one that I keep coming back to. They signed Matt Fowler to a reasonable deal. When I've been thinking about the Bears, the first thing I want, Ryan Jensen is my first call when free agency opens if I'm Chicago. It is the first phone call that I make because that is just such a stabilizing factor for a young quarterback.

Having somebody that can take protections off his plate, having a tone setter in your offensive line. We've seen in multiple different places over the last year, Kansas City, with the charge of you can remake an offensive line in a year. You can do it. So teams that are willing to commit to it, I think, could be happy that they did. No, that makes total sense. For my biggest surprise, I'm going with Michael Parsons and not necessarily the player, because we knew this guy was extremely talented.

I mean, with what he could do athletically at that size and different ways he can impact the game, just a very, very unique player. when he was drafted by Dallas, I wasn't overly optimistic just because I didn't trust that organization and Dan Quinn and that coaching staff to use him correctly to get everything out of Michael Parsons that he could be for him to reach his full potential. Happy to say, I was flat wrong because of what he was able to do. And the way the Cowboys used him, only three players this year had over 20 tackles for loss. T.J. Watt, Nick Bosa, and Michael Parsons. It's just kind of crazy the impact that he had. He had the second highest win rate among pass rushers when they let him do that.

On tape, he wasn't the best in terms of going in reverse and playing in coverage. But he showed flashes of being able to do it at a high level just based on athletic skill and athletic instinct. So Michael Parsons, it's a fun player. And now as we look forward to this upcoming draft, how teams are going to look at Michael Parsons and say, okay, let's find our Micah Parsons. that going to be Devin Lloyd out of Utah? Is that going to be, is there another linebacker we could find to do that? There's going to be teams looking for that next Mikea Parsons. No, but that's, I mean, the fact that you're saying that, and you're saying it because it's true. Yeah. Oh, yeah. The fact that people think you're going to find the next Michael Parsons,

this is why you will be a losing organization. You're not finding Michael, Michael Parsons. He's not in this draft. It's not Devin Lloyd. You're not finding the next Michael Parsons. The next Michael Parsons is probably Kyle Hamilton, but he doesn't, but he's not the same position. It's a different position. It looks different. You know, the copycat idea, and you're right, Dane, and I think this is the biggest problem is everyone wants to find the next. Well, Baker did it. Now let's go do Kyler and let's do, well, this is the Micah Parsons.

So let's do this. Well, this is the Kyle Pitts. So let's follow the Kyle Pitts. Good luck finding the next Kyle Pitts. How long do you want to wait for that? So I think that I think the idea of finding the next guy, which is a tale as old as time in the NFL, the copycat league. To me, when I look at Michael Parsons, I say, okay, when I say, find the next Michael Parsons, find the next guy that you turn them loose and let him make plays without thinking, right? That's what I think of.

I don't think of find the next Michael Parsons. I think, who is the next guy that we can just let play and get the most out of his athletic potential? and rare traits and qualities. That's how I look at it because I think too many people look at it the same way that you talked about, Dane, which is how can we copy what the Dallas Cowboys did? Well, you can copy it,

but maybe at a different position and something to maybe a little bit more outside the box in terms of the way you think about it. What's funny because there aren't that many positions where you can replicate that, right? Because there aren't that many positions where you can just let a guy loose. And, Dan, that was the first thing I thought

when I watched Micah Parsons at Penn State two years ago, but his tape when we were watching it last spring. It's like on third down, this guy should never move backwards. He just never should. And I was wondering if there was going to be a situation and a team that was allowing that to happen. And it did. But how many positions can you do that, Lance,

where you're not asking a young player to have awareness in space, having to identify things, where you're really just letting them go. A blitzing linebacker is really one of the only spots you can do that. Because linebacker in general is not that. spot. Think about how many swings and misses we've seen with first round off ball linebackers over the last few years. I was talking to Dane about this this morning. The Cardinals guys specifically have a prominent place in my mind when I think about this. And I was in Arizona this fall

and I was doing a story on their defense. And I was talking to Bill Davis, their linebacker coach. And just about how hard that position is to acclimate who is a young player, because when you're playing closer to the line of scrimmage, he was talking about Isaiah Simmons specifically, the amount of things that you have to identify, all of the different eye candy, especially playing in that division, the Rams and the Niners, all of the motion, all of the different keys, that position takes a lot of time to understand how to diagnose and process information. The Cowboys eliminated that by the way that they use Micah Parsons. The Bucks oftentimes eliminated that in the ways that they would use Devin White as a blitzer. But if you're not going to have somebody that's really just a fifth pass rusher in those situations, they're all. lot of horror stories at that spot over the last few years.

So trying to copy to say, well, we want an offball linebacker that's going to be one of the best pass rushers in the league. They're going to be a lot of mistakes made if people try going down that road. Well, and the other thing is, as I had a GM tell me, it's much easier to move forward than to move backward, to go from linebacker to end. And I think that's what Dallas did. They took a linebacker, let him play faster and do less. thinking what you ask Isaiah Simmons to do is to move backwards. In essence, well, I mean,

your safety to linebacker, but it was already a position. He was already at linebacker the year before the Clemson. The instincts weren't great. I think they asked maybe a little, they ask him to process too much. And finding a way to let a guy play fast is the most important thing. If you can do it, sometimes you can't. Sometimes that's just, sorry, that's life in the NFL. You've got to process and go through the bumps and bruises. I mean, that's a really good point that you make, Robert, is that there's very few positions quite like pass rush where you can just cut it loose and play. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Okay, Michael Parsons, clear defensive rookie of the year. Is Jamar Chase the clear offensive rookie of the year as well? I think it has to be. It would be for me, yeah. I mean, I think it has to be. Who gets more votes? Jamar Chase for rookie. Okay, I take that back.

Right now, now that I think about it, you guys think it's automatically Jamar Chase and not Mac Jones? I would make it Jamar Chase, but I'm not sure the odds makers have it quite that close. I think actually Mac Jones is, I think it's a pretty close matchup with the odds makers between Mac Jones and Jamar Chase. The quarterback, you know, I get it,

but with what Jamar Chase did this year. Who's an all pro? Yeah, I mean, he set the records not only for rookie receiving yards in a season, but the Bengals franchise record for receiving yards. And the Bengals aren't playing in the AFC championship game without them. Plain and simple. Now, I mean, I know this is a regular season award, but the impact that Jamar Chase made and, you know, the amount of digital ink that was spilled about him going five and, you know, the Bengals make a mistake. And, you know, it's it now looking back, it's like, okay, yeah, that was the Bengals made the right choice. And even though they had nine, gave up nine sacks against the Titans in that game and the

playoff game, Jamar Chase, you're still looking at that pick as being the right one, right? It's the pick I've thought about the most over the last few months for a lot of different reasons. I was never on one team or the other, which is strong move by me, never commit to an opinion on the internet. So I didn't. And I wrote a piece before the draft, and what I wrote was, let's look historically at where we typically find the best players at these positions. If you look at offensive tackle, guys that are consistently pro-ball, all pro-level players. They are often first-round picks.

They're often high first-round picks. And if you have to get one on the market, you're trading for one. You know, Larry Me Tonsle, Trent Williams. These guys don't hit free agency, guys that end up being top-tier offensive tackles. Receivers not like that. You look at recent draft classes. AJ Brown was a second round pick. D.K. Mekap was a second round pick.

Justin Jefferson was the fifth receiver taken in his own draft. He was drafted in the 20s. Look at the history of top 10 wide receivers. It's bleak. It's not good. You have your Corey Davis's and Mike Williams and John Ross's to go along. I talked to an offensive coordinator before the draft, and he said this to me and it's stuck in my mind. He said, if I'm drafted a receiver in the top 10, he's got to be a hallfamer walking off the bus.

Julio Jones, Calvin Johnson, A.J. Green, those types of guys. And I didn't know if Jamar Chase was that guy. You look at the physical profile, he's not one of those Greek statues. He's not 6-3-225. There were elements of his game that I did not appreciate. And it's made me kind of rethink, all right, how much of an impact can a receiver have? What does a top five receiver look like? Is this such a unique circumstance? Because his rapport with Burrow is a huge part of what makes them go. It's a really. thing. The trust that they immediately had and how willing he is to let these throws rip into tight windows when he looks covered, it helps mitigate the pass rush concerns. So what are we supposed to learn from the Jamar Chase impact? How reputable is it? These are, I think, the most important questions when it comes to what he's been from the Bengals and what it can mean moving forward. I have no answers to those questions yet, but they have been rolling around in my mind as I watch him play. Well, my dad was with the Cleveland Browns, and he was with the Cleveland Browns with Butch Davis, and he told me a story. Now, remember, he's the offensive line coach for the

Cleveland Browns who need help on the offensive line. And he was worried that they were going to trade their first round, that they were going to trade their first round pick and a future first round pick to move up and get Robert Gallery. And it's the time Robert Gallery is considered you know, a really good prospect. My dad didn't love him, but that's not the, that's not the point of this. The point he made to me, I'm like, yeah, but he, wouldn't you be excited to get some help? He goes, Lance, you can find tackles. The game is about scoring touchdowns and stopping touchdowns.

And I'll never forget, he told me, if you have a chance to get a guy who's special in terms of scoring a touchdown or stopping touchdowns, pass rushers, that's what you look for. And his point was, we can, we can get, guys blocked with offensive tackles who are not top five picks but special players and so to this day and that was god close to 20 years ago i guess 18 years ago something like that as i moved forward with that to me it was an easy call with penet sull and jimmar chase one guy had a chance to be special and this also gets to my personal evaluation of soel i didn't see special i saw good but i didn't see special but it's what the impact they can have on a game

was the most important thing. But I think it's also interesting that impact on a game is fluid from team to team and scheme to scheme. So what fit the Cincinnati Bengals may not necessarily fit, you know, another team depending on if that same situation or scenario presents itself. That's the interesting thing is you have to, it's not all in a vacuum. You have to take everything into consideration with every team. then the Browns ended up drafting Kellan Winslow that draft.

So that was the thinking, and it didn't work out, but that was the thinking that they were going with, a guy that could impact the offense in a way that was going to put points on the board. All right, last thing before we sign off here, let's just give me a big takeaway. Give me a lasting thought from this draft class, from this rookie class,

as we kind of turn the page, go to the offseason, get ready for 2022. What's just one overall takeaway from this class that will kind of stick with you. I think it's just that we were right about the blue chip guys. You know, this is one of those classes that coming in, it felt so good at the top. It felt like these guys were rare when you think about the Kyle Pitts's of the world

and Jamar Chase and just the positional players in this draft. And they were. You know, those guys in the top 10, pretty much all of them looked the part as rookies. Pitts, Jamar Chase, Jalen Waddle, in a very weird situation, was a really productive player. Pente Soule is going to be a really good tackle for a while. I mean, he's a solid player. He had a good rookie season.

Rayshan Slater has his own case to be the offensive rookie of the year. Patrick Sartan looks like a superstar. And so rarely does that, does it feel like that? Is that the outcome when you look at a draft and think, man, look at all these potential stars. And at the end of their rookie year, you look back on it and say, they all are potential stars. Like, this did work out in the way that we all thought it might. that never, ever happens. And then you contrast it to this draft,

and it's a very different feeling, I would assume, for you guys looking at this group compared to last year's group. Yeah, it is. That's a good point. I think you made a great point about Waddle look like the fast catch and run, dangerous playmaker.

Jamar Chase played up to his level, even though he didn't play. I'm trying to figure out how anyone ever scored a single point against Penn State ever. With O'way and Brisker and, you know, all the players we've seen over the last couple of years drafted, obviously Michael Parsons. But I think, like you said, the guys that we expected to be dudes became dudes. And then the other lasting thing that's still incomplete, Dane, is that, you know, the quarterbacks were really, it was a disappointing year, frankly. The quarterbacks, we didn't even really get to see enough flashes out of the quarterbacks.

And that's what was surprising me a little bit. I thought we'd see more flashes. And we did not see the flashes I expected from this rookie quarterback class. Yeah. And speaking about like the top 15, if Aidan Hutchinson, stack him in this class, where does he go? You know, he's not going above what, I don't know, 12 maybe? I mean, it's just, it's crazy to think that if you combine the 2022 and the 2021 draft classes, is there a single 2022 prospect in the top 10 of the two?

I mean, that's, I think that sums it up what we've been talking about. The Heisman winner went 10. Yeah, exactly. This class just, you know, it's a good, and it's a good class. I don't want to beat it up too much. We're just missing the blue chippers at the top. And I think it's, that's my way of saying that absolutely the guys that we expected to be good have been good and should be good for a long time.

this class is just missing a lot of those guys. And there's a lot of good players. We're just missing the upper class. Plenty of middle class first rounders. Just missing some of those upper class guys. So, yeah, I think this is fun conversation. Excited to turn a page on these guys. It's going to do it for us today.

Thanks for listening, everybody. Remember, Lance and I are going to be doing this every week, every Wednesday. Next week we'll be down in Mobile for the senior bowl. So we'll have some fresh reactions from practices. You can catch Robert almost every day on. The Athletic Football Show. So for Lance Zerlein, Robert Mays, I'm Dane Brugler. We'll talk to you next week.

This was the Athletic Football Show.