The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - 2022 NFL Draft: Brugler & Zierlein on Reese's Senior Bowl surprises, disappointments & overall takeaways

Episode Date: February 3, 2022

Dane Brugler and NFL.com draft analyst Lance Zierlein sit down with Robert Mays in Mobile to discuss their biggest takeaways from the Reese's Senior Bowl. They explain what it’s like seeing the prospects in person before they break down their biggest surprises and disappointments of the week. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome. The athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Today's Thursday, February 3rd. Fun show for you guys today. We're down here in Mobile, Alabama. This is when we typically do our draft show for the week with Dane Bruegler and Lance

Erlein. Figured it would be easier for me to play host and ask these guys about what's going down here in Mobile because they know what they're looking at. So gentlemen, I'm thrilled to do that and thrilled to talk all things senior bowl. Dane, it's nice to have you in this role in the show here. Yeah, it's a good week. This is the last time we get to see these guys on the field, like in a football setting.

Combine, shorts and shirt, you know, that's great. Yeah. But this is the first time we get to see them in pads. Last time we get to see them in a helmet. Last time we get to see, you know, actually popping pads in practice. So today was a little wet at practice, but it's still, it's been a productive week, which has been great. Are your pants still wet, Lance, from practice today? I was soaked to the bone and they're sitting in the rain today.

Yeah, I had to change. It was a consistent mist. Before we get into that, I have to ask you, though, this is your first. It's my first year bowl. So one of the things that Mobile does really well is they put things into balls and then they roll them around and like egg wash and coat them and deep fry them. And they deep fried things. Have you had anything deep fried like macaroni and cheese bites or Boudan balls or anything like that yet? I have not eaten anything bad.

You're a food guy, right? I love food. I'm going out to dinner tonight. I'm going to have some Gulf seafood later tonight. So far I have not done that. I was traveling yesterday. I'm going, so next week is L.A. for Super Bowl.

And L.A. is a wonderful food city. I have dinner reservations every single night somewhere. Nice. So I'm trying not to eat like a total asshole two weeks in a row. So I'm trying to control myself a little bit right now. Felix Fish Camp tonight? No, I'm going to. I'm going to Winsles.

Oh. Yeah. Are you an oyster guy? I love oysters. They're famous for oysters. Yeah. So I love oysters. I love eating down in this region of the country.

Like New Orleans is my favorite food city in America. Not surprising, right? It's not an original thought. Yeah. But this is a New Orleans adjacent sort of. They have their own marty gras here. Yeah. Regionally, the food is we're in the same zip code, which is totally fine with me.

Yeah, it's a fun. You know, the rain is also similar to New Orleans, apparently, because that's what we dealt with today. It was a mist mixed with rain. The mist was doable. until you realize at some point eventually it's going to work its way through the pants and it's going to be a problem. But for me, getting down on the field, you know, I spend so much time, Robert, watching tape that one of the things that is a challenge to me, and this may seem funny, but I write, I've written up close to 4,000 players over the last, this is now going on my eighth draft.

What a stupid number? It's crazy, but I watch, but tape, I can, I can really analyze easily off of tape. but when you go get on the ground and you're watching these guys like, A, it's harder because all this action, you don't have the overview. So it forces you to train your eyes more. But being able to see what, you know, Darius Parham's calves look like, being able to see that an offensive lineman has no butt at all, just flat buck, which is kind of a big deal to some evaluators,

seeing what a guy like Josh Williams from Fayetteville State, a cornerback who looks great on the hoof, looking at Damien Pierce, there's a quandary white there. The way they're physically built and the way that they look, it may seem petty, but I'm telling you now, evaluators will tell you this. Guys who look like football players and can play a little bit are the ones who end up sticking around the league longer than guys

who don't look like NFL players. And I know it seems cliched, but it's true. And that's why you want to get eyes on players. And so if you can get down on the field, field and that's what I was willing to do. I'll I'll take the wet pants for a chance to go actually you know see these guys perform on the field level because just like if you've ever been to a basketball game, an NBA game. It's one thing to watch on TV. When you watch it up close, it is unbelievably fast. And you can't get a sense unless you're there. Hockey is the same

way I totally agree. And it was just fun for even for me sitting in the stands today. I mean, Travis Jones is the guy we're going to talk about, the defense line from Yukon. He had a rep. I was standing next a day, and I was like, ooh. I had an audible response because the power was kind of so evident. And that's really only something you can grasp when you have some proximity to it. You hear the paths. Yeah, absolutely.

The way the ball comes off, the hand of the quarterbacks, and that's a big deal just to see it in person and seeing it one after the other. So, you know, it's a little unfair for maybe a quarterback that doesn't have a strong arm, like a Bailey Zappy when he's throwing right after Malik Willis, that type of thing. It's tough, but it's good for evaluators. And I mean, you bring up a great point, Lance, about, and this is something I've always kind of struggled with is there's so much going on that it really makes you train your eye to focus on one thing because you'll hear a gasp over here. You don't know what I missed, but then you're so hard. Your eyes are constantly playing, you know, as ping pong going back and forth.

And so you can either choose to focus on one position a day. You can, you know, choose specific drills. And watching the tape afterwards is a big, that's a god's side. But doing it live is definitely there's so many advantages to doing it down here. As somebody who is legitimately ADD and I hate that so many people say, I'm so ADD, I'm ADD. No. I am and I have a caffeine addiction because I have to drink coffee every. It's not a great combination.

And so when I go, you know, when I'm tanked up on 30 ounces of caffeine or of coffee, I should say, I don't know how many milligrams of caffeine it is. and a natural, you know, God-given attention deficit disorder. And I go to a field to watch four different sections across the field, things going on one-on-ones. It really is tough because if you don't lock in, you don't see anything. If you try to see everything, you don't see anything. And I don't know, Robert, if that was something that you learned today in watching this, because this is a unique event. It's so much easier with one-on-ones.

I mean, it's just so much easier when you're watching one-on-one. drills. But I mean, when you're watching, we're watching seven on seven today a little bit. And even when you're doing that, it's the same thing when you're watching games. I mean, I think you have to be watching games live or watching tape. You have to be so intentional about what you're watching. You're going to watch nothing. And that's why I make a plan when I'm watching on NFL Sundays, each game, what am I watching specifically? Like what player for this couple plays, what player for that couple plays? Because if you don't do that, you're not going to see anything when there's 10 games going on. So I feel like this is an offshoot of that in somewhat of a similar way.

All right, let's talk about just the biggest kind of themes and takeaways you've had over the first two days of practice. Dan, why don't you start us off? Just the thing that's kind of sticking your mind as you think about, all right, first two days, Senior Bowl 2020, what's going to hit my brain? There's one clear and obvious takeaway from the first two practices, and that is that the defensive line is dominated, clear and simple, both edge rushers, interior defensive linemen. And, you know, coming down here, I thought this was a pretty good offensive line. line class with Trevor Penning and Bernard Raymond and there's a lot of draft picks off this offensive line but the defensive line is really dominated and you know you could point to Travis Jones at the top with with you mentioned them Yukon defensive tackle it's easy to forget

Yukon as a football team but they do and they've got a few draft picks I think they have two draft picks this year including Jones who has just been so quick off the ball so explosive creating that knockback getting guys going in reverse and it's just he's a hard guy to handle and you know he's when you think of two gaping dominant run defenders in this draft I think you automatically think of Jordan Davis who is not in this draft Georgia nose tackle or he's not in this event he did not accept his senior boy in wait meanwhile Travis Jones has he might be the day two version you know a guy that's gonna two gap for you he's gonna be dominant versus run maybe

give you a little bit of a pass rush, but that's not going to be what you're paying for. So I think we start with this defensive line, and we have to start with Travis Jones the way he's played. He has made some money. And that's cliche. I know Travis Jones has made money. Yeah, and it's really I'll say that it's the interior guys, to me, a great deal. We'll get to a couple guys on the outside who also have done exceptionally well. But Otito Ogbonia, yeah, from UCLA. He's really flashed some power too. that I didn't always see on tape. It didn't always manifest itself.

Devante Wyatt has been a real problem with his business inside, a real, real problem. I think it's been the interior guys that have really started to beat up on the interior guys, but the tackles have been a little bit disappointing to me. I think some of the tackles, and you mentioned a couple of them, Penning. And I think Penning has some holes.

And listen, I'm not as high with my Trevor Penning grade as some other people are. Do you the first rounder? I think he's a back. In most drafts, I think. he's an early second. In most drafts, this is a little different draft. It's a little lighter draft. But I think in most drafts

he would catch a grade for me that would be in the neighborhood of a top 40 player. There's nothing wrong with that. People get hyper-focused on first round. Like, that's the only thing that matters. But I think the other thing that I would want to point out is that the quarterbacks, I was hoping that someone would really pop and stand out and the Kenny

picket would, you know, set the world on fire. That was the guy that I was kind of expecting maybe to come out and possibly jumpstart himself. His his draft move like Justin Herbert did at the Senior Bowl. And it just hasn't materialized. And today was not a great day because the weather was not great. He had this black glove on his on his very small throwing hands

because he's got a double joint of thumb, I heard. Silly. Just silly. But, you know, it just, it wasn't great weather to throw in, obviously. But even before then, the quarterbacks were very, Sam Howe Malik, specifically Malik Willis, Sam Hal, Bailey, Zappi were very erratic yesterday. And yesterday's, and there wasn't a weather issue yesterday, but I was really surprised how often I'd see balls either too tall or too small. And there hasn't been anyone that's generated buzz at the quarterback position.

I want to hit the quarterbacks in a little bit. I want to ask you guys on a more general level. You said the defense of linemen stood out. How do you contextualize what you're seeing during these practices? I'm sure there are positions that are more prone to stand out in this set of circumstances. I'm sure there are positions that are harder to stand out because you don't have rapport with guys that you never played with before. Dane, when you're watching this kind of stuff, where do you take an extra grain of salt, where do you kind of have to set back and have some perspective?

How do you think about what you see on the field this week as it relates to how the way we talk about prospects? I think, yeah, as in 30,000 foot view, I think it's important to remember, like, you shouldn't be watching these practices and then see something and then go to your rankings and start making changes. Like, that's not how this works. Like, either what you see this week confirms what you saw on tape or it's sending you back to the tape to say, oh, wow, I didn't know he had that power. Or I didn't know he used his length in such an effective way. And, you know, there's all these different, and, you know, maybe that's, maybe you weren't watching the right tapes. Maybe it's something he's been working on the last month, you know, with specific trainers and guys getting ready for these events. And so there's a lot of context here with these players.

And a good example is Jermaine Johnson. He came into the week, top defensive player, maybe the top player overall here at Mobile. And he's looked like it. He has not disappointed. He can win in so many ways on tape. You see the link. You see the power. You see him dominate versus a run.

He can play the past. So Jermaine Johnson coming to Mobile. he has confirmed what I thought what we saw on tape and what we expected out of him. But for some of these other guys, it's, you know, like, I'm going to go back to the Yukon tape

and say, okay, is it, you know, level of competition here? You know, like just when he was asked to do in that defense, but, you know, Travis Jones, a good example, another one, Harry on Winfrey, a guy that you watch at Oklahoma tape

and you don't get necessarily jazzed about him. You know, it's flashes. It's not consistent play. Here, especially today, Wednesday's practice, he was the guy that was making the place. And he did it with quickness off the ball. He did it with some flexibility. He did it.

He wanted some different ways. And so time to go back to the tape and figure it out. And that's what it is. It's just it's a big investigation to figure these guys out with all the different breadcrumbs that give us around the process. The great assault thing for me is obvious. I think it's always offensive line. I mean, for two reasons.

Number one, it really doesn't sense. up great for an offensive lineman. They're at a disadvantage in one-on-one. Huge. They're playing defense. Yeah. It's such a strange dynamic. There's no help to your, there's no help to your B-GAP.

There's no help for a tackle on your, let's say a left tackle on your B-gap's going to be on your right-hand side. There's no help around. You don't have anyone shipping. I mean, it is a, it's a very good test when an offensive alignment does well. It means a lot. But that's not the way that real-life pass protection is going to work. So you have to keep, you do have to.

take it with a bit of a grain of salt. And you do see most offensive linemen struggle the first day, and by the third day, they're much better. That happens a lot of times because the tech, they stop. When the bullets start flying, they have a tendency to just respond and react. They lose their technique because they're in a different place. Their mind space is different. This is something I've talked to my dad about who was an offensive line coach in the league.

And, you know, once the third day gets there, they're into the team atmosphere. They're into, you know, okay, let me tighten up the technique. Let me really focus on that. And so they get better. But I think to piggyback on what Dane talked about, you do have to go back to the tape. However, I would also say he made another good point. Maybe players are just working on things.

I'll give you a great point. Perion Winfrey, who I wasn't too jazzed about either. You got to remember that Alex Grinch, who was their defensive coordinator, had a lot of slanting fronts. I always take tackles for loss from his, fronts, whether it was Washington State or Oklahoma, I take it with a grain of salt because their scheme is designed to disrupt. And so if you get, if you slant and you get blocked, you know,

three gaps away, he doesn't care. That's because guess what, you're going to get in that gap and cause trouble sometimes. So the TFLs to me, the tackles for loss, not always the best indicator in that particular scheme, but here he is coming out and playing straight ahead. And I'm like, wow you know this is I got to I got to factor this in like this is what I look like in real stuff it's the guys that when you watch what they were in a specific scheme, and sometimes it's hard to extricate what they are in that scheme from what they are as players. I mean, look at what Justin Herbert did.

I mean, just look at what Justin Herbert and ultimately ends up being. Josh Allen. It's just, and that, again, every time I'm not with you guys, I feel like I make this joke, but it's why the shit is hard. I mean, it's really, really difficult. And I think that's why as an outside observer who doesn't know necessarily the nitty gritty of what this week typically looks like, that's what it would seem like the value is,

where you create a level playing field, you can get guys removed from the circumstances you've seen them in, and it just makes it so much easier to understand what they purely are as prospects. And it's great for smaller school guys because you're getting them, you know, Eric Johnson, Missouri State. My parents' alma mater. There you go. Tor it up at the NFLPA game.

He gets a late call up to the senior bowl. So he's, you know, he played in the game on Saturday, NFLPA game. He gets on a plane. He's in Mobile. Tell you what, first two days of practice, he's played well. And this is a guy that's... You see his little half spinpivots rush? Like, that's not real life.

Those defensive tackles don't do that in real life. I was like, where do he get this from? The whole place went, he's 302 pounds. And he's got 34.5 inch arms. And his balance at contact is really, really impressive. Strong core. Yeah, he really does. And so, I mean, Eric Johnson, a good example.

Troy Anderson, the lineback from Montana State. I mean, you watch that Montana State tape, and you see an all-around athlete. I think he won three titles in high school in three different sports. I mean, just an all-round athlete. Where you learn this crap? This is my job. I know.

But, no, I mean, that's, his background's fascinating. And, I mean, he grew up on a ranch in Montana, yellow-south stuff. He was an all-state in like every sport. Everything. All-all-state. He was in some ways. It's a little bit like Van der Rash story. Very much like Band-Rash.

I know we talked about Van derage back then. And this guy asked. I visited him. I was in Riggins, Idaho for three days. I will say that I wasn't as impressed when I watched the tape, but he's also played running back, quarterback, and linebacker since he's been. Right, exactly. When you're an all-conference first-team quarterback, and two years later,

you're the defensive player of the year? He's top 10 in school history in rushing hands. I mean, like, that's crazy. But that's the big question with him, is Kenny Key and Dagnos consistently. But seeing him run, the Jets coaches have, I think, on more than one occasion really praised him for his speed. A kid from Montana State does not look out of place going up against these athletes from the SEC in the Big Ten and everybody else. He looks like he belongs.

I think that's the biggest thing for me. The questions about him keying and diagnosing are still there. Just seeing him move and the athleticism, he belongs to this game. I think cornerbacks, that's another position. It's not a good week. It's a hard week for them because you don't have safety help. a lot of the one-on-one drills. The whole field's open.

The whole field's wide open. And then, you know, you're trying to, no rush and you're trying to get used to not grabbing because they allow, they allow what would usually be felonies on the street, but they allow them to, to take place on the college football field. But once it gets to the pros,

it completely disappears. Like you can't touch after five. And, and so I think learning to cover down the field without being grabby is tough for them, but then, as you guys just mentioned, I mean, the amount of space that they have to cover is really, really tough. And I think running backs for me, it's difficult for me to get a feel for running backs in this game because offensive lines, they're not used to working as a unit. So they have a hard time against defensive lines and the team, from a team aspect and

scrimmage. And so there's usually not much room for running backs to run. But I saw, I saw some holes every once in a while. Tyler Batty from Missouri. Missouri and Damien Pierce. Big week for my schools then. I thought bad he had a really good day today. Well, and he's still good catching the ball. He reminds me a lot of Trey Cohen. That's good.

Another parallel for you. God. Big day for me. Yeah, he's undersized. He's rocked up. He's not getting any bigger. But he catches. How about Michael Carter?

Not that dissimilar size-wise. Yeah, I can see that. And he's a backup, but he's an undersized backup. But he's good as a ball carrier. He had a ton of toads this year, over 300 touches, and he catches a ball at backfield. And he'll stick his nose in and defend the quarterback a little bit, same way Michael Carter would. And so you mentioned the offensive line, and I think you're right. And so when a guy does stand down on the offensive line, that's when you really take notice.

I think Zion Johnson's done that. Where's he from? Boston College. Yeah, and he's – do you know his backstory? He's a golfer. He's a golfer. He's a golfer. He's a guy.

He heard about this yesterday, which is wild. I golf from time to time. He started golfing in sixth grade, okay? Picks it up and plays all through his junior year. Junior year, he decides, hey, I'll try football. Goes out as a senior, makes varsity, starting right tackle at 290 pounds. And he's got a pretty big school. Not a recruit, not getting recruited at all.

I wait 20 pounds in high school. He goes to Davidson, non-scholarship FCS, starts right away. And, you know, he's putting it on weight. He's 240 as a freshman, 2.60. He is a sophomore trying to put on weight. And he's starting at tackle. He's starting a guard for Davidson. They run a triple option there.

He enters the transfer portal. Bet's on himself because he's like, I need to be on scholarship here. His assistant coach with Davidson's now in Boston College. Boston College picks him up. Three years of Boston College. And the guy's a stud. Over 34 inch arms. Moves really well for that size.

Core strength outstanding. I think he's been. He carries great. He played tackle at Boston College, but he's probably a guard. No, he played guard. Last year he played tackle and it didn't go well. And so he came back, he used that fifth year, went back. And I think probably a handshake agreement, hey, if I'm coming back, I'm coming back as a guard.

Got you. Came back as a guard and he was outstanding for Boston College. I think he's legitimately in the conversation to be the first guard drafted, probably the second interior lineman drafted, probably after Linderbom. Tyler Lundabon from Iowa So Zanyan Johnson, I think, has been one of the few guys that slowed down Travis Jones this week And he's snapping too.

They put him at center, which he's never done that before. And I thought he's done an okay job, all things considered. So Travis Jones is somebody who's kind of in the last couple of days and we both talked about him. Yukon knows, yeah. He really has.

He is a powerhouse. And then Jermaine Johnson, who's a pastor from Florida State. Lance, he just jumped out to both of you guys. What specifically about him? He came in as one of the best prospects in this game and here this week. What do you think he's done well over the last couple days?

I give you some background because Dane is the master of the background and I don't want to be left out. So do you watch, have you ever watched Last Chance You? I have never watched Last Chance You're familiar. I am familiar with what it is. Netflix doc. He will be the highest drafted player who was ever shown on Last Chance You this year when he goes in the first round. And he was with Jason Brown from Independence Community College there in Kansas, home of my mom and dad.

They grew up on farms in Kansas. And he went to Georgia, and he was fine at Georgia. I looked at Georgia tape, so I went back and watched his Georgia tape. And then I turned on his Florida State tape. And the first thing I noticed, now he entered the transfer portal this year, after last year, he went immediately to Florida State and started a defensive event. And he was good at Georgia last year. He was fine.

It was part of a rotation. Yeah, part of a rotation. I've heard the Georgia defense was okay. It was not bad. Aziz O'Jolari was a guy for the Giants who was on that same rotation, and he was sharing reps with Jermaine Johnson. So anyway, Jermaine Johnson goes to Florida State, and the first thing I notice is he is really putting in work against the run.

Like he is setting strong edges, offensive tackles. And I try to look for the best matchups I can for these guys. And he is hanging in against Equanu, who is an offensive tackle. Ikem Aquano. Icki. Icki, Aquano from... I think he's easier. Yeah, who...

We talked about last week. Yeah, yeah. Who hit the first pick in Dane's mock draft. Germain Johnson's hanging in against him whenever they're matched up, because he'll flip sides from time to time, Jermaine Johnson will. And the thing is, I thought he was a lot. He felt stronger.

He looked stronger. The lower body looked stronger. So I reached out to the strength coach who got back with me, and we had a good talk about, you know, how much stronger did he get? And I wanted to get an idea of some of the testing that he might have. and if he got a lot stronger from Georgia, because I just thought his base looked a lot stronger.

The thing that really impressed me, he's very good against the run. He's a tough guy at the point of attack, too. But on tape, the thing that I thought was, I gave him a first round grade because I felt like I saw projectable pass rush. I saw the athleticism. What was his past brush production this year? Full sex.

So I thought it was good. It was pretty good. It was good. But, you know, I go, when you watch them all, just like with Dane, I want to see how many are unblocked. You want to see how many are. quarterbacks run into you. How many are

quarterback holds the ball sacks. And I wanted to see how many of these are translatable to the NFL level. Are you doing things that are going to beat tackles on the NFL level? And I saw some hand chops and some bend. I saw things that I kind of liked. Yeah. This week,

he's unleashed his spin move a lot more. I saw him flashed it a couple of times on tape. This week, he's got an inside spin and an outside spin. The outside spin is kind of rare in the pass rush world. He has a bull rush that he rolled over Knaard, who's a 300, what, 70-pound tackle from Kentucky. I don't know what he came in at, but he is a massive, massive tackle. Bull-rushed him to the ground.

And the thing is, what he's shown me is versatility as a pass-rusher to go with, what I already know is good edge setting and toughness against a road. run. So I had a first round grade on him going in. I'll probably bump him a little bit more because I saw things that I wanted to see. And I don't think there's any question he made money and he solidified himself in the first round. I know people were maybe dancing around first, second round. I don't think there's going to be any doubt because he looks the part too. Yeah. And there's nuance to what he's doing. To your point, I mean, there's strategic thought to everything that he's doing out there. He's setting things up. Right. And that was a big question.

Okay, going from Georgia to Florida State this year, his snap kind of Georgia last year, 27 defensive snaps per game. That was the big question. Okay, when he goes to Florida State and he's the alpha, he's the guy, playing more snaps, can he still have the same level of production? He averaged 61 snaps, defensive snaps this past year for Florida State, and looked outstanding doing it. So I mean, it's interesting to watch pass rushers especially when that jump happens.

Right, exactly. Because you get indications about motor. You get indications on how they can set moves up because over the course of a game, if I'm playing one way for the first two quarters and I'm getting a feel for what he's doing well, what I'm doing well, you can set things up for later in the game. It's just that's one position where it just as you kick those snaps up and you kick that playing time up, I feel like it does, it can make a difference. And one of the best compliments I can pay to Jermaine Johnson is for a guy with 12 sacks, I think if you put, if you ask me what his five best plays were, three of them

are probably versus the run where he's making a tackle for loss because of his awareness, because at the angles that he's taken. I mean, he's a really aware player on the edge. So he has the length where he can set a hard edge, but he's also smart. He also understands what the offense is doing. So I think there's, when it's all said and done, you start to run out of reasons why Drane Johnson should not be higher,

you know, why you shouldn't go top 25, why you shouldn't maybe go top 20. I mean, you start to kind of cross off these reasons to say, you know, why not? He can be that type of player. So, TFL production typically more translatable than sack production over the from college to the NFL? It can be depending on scheme.

We talked about the Oklahoma scheme. But if you do it, if it's a situation where as a college player, my last year, I had eight TFLs. Is that typically more translatable than Saks are? Are we D-Line or are we linebacker? D-line. Okay. It can be a good indicator of, first of all, are you a reading React guy? Like Alabama's typically not going to have.

They don't ask their guys to get up the field. So you do have to take a look at scheme. But I do think TFLs, if I see them for more than one year, If I see three straight years, there's something there. There's something there. I do think they can be translatable. And here's why. One of the things Jermaine Johnson does really well is he gets off of a block instantly.

He can press and separate. And then he can release. He knows how to release and get to tackles. That's actually a skill. Either the shed quickness to get to a guy who's coming through the B gap, you know, right next to you, or the ability to understand how to maneuver your body at the same time you're letting go of the blocker. Kind of a judo push-pull type of move. And I think that's an instinctive body type.

I think that's an instinctive athletic trait and talent you have. It is teachable and it is coachable. But to your point about TFLs, TFLs are made through explosiveness and sometimes slipperiness. Do you know how to get through the crevice? And some of that's going to be upper body turn. And there are some physical aspects to it. But TFL's, for me, one of the reasons I think a lot of times they're translatable because they show typically bend, motor, and explosiveness, which are critical to that particular skill.

All right. So we talked about the guys that have owned the last couple days. How about some pleasant surprises? Maybe guys that aren't making headlines, but you've come away being like, oh, man, I maybe you should think about that guy again. Can I start this one? Because I don't know if it's a mea culpa or not. But I mentioned this on a previous podcast. I've got a naturally ingrained bias against stiffer pass rushers.

I readily admit that, and I understand that those guys end up playing in the league too. How would you define stiff in this context? Stiff, okay, I should say tight, maybe. Guys who are a little tight-hipped, guys who don't really bend the edge all that well, they don't play, and I think of this in terms of basketball, the ability they're going to have to play through somebody's edge as opposed to around them because they don't have the lateral ability.

to simply elude a blocker, right? I also have this bias. So this is why I ask. Okay. So Frank Clark, I didn't love Frank Clark coming out, and he was a power rusher, and Frank became a much better player

than I anticipated. This is part of my Trey Hendricksson blindspot. Because when I watch her head and I'm just like, I don't see it, and then he gets 80 pressures over the course of the season. You're right. And this happens sometimes, and so I try to recognize where,

and so Kingsley, And I, Iqbari, a defensive end from South Carolina, is extremely strong. There's no question about that. You watch a tape. But I don't think he's a great pass rusher. I mean, I don't think I'm wrong in that. I just, he's a straight up the middle, you know, face-up rusher. And I talked to a director of personnel today, and we were talking about him.

And he said, if I have a choice between a bendy finesse rusher and a power rusher, he goes, power rushers have less bust in them. They have lower ceilings, but they don't tend to bust because it's a grown man game in the NFL and strength matters. And too many teams or too many evaluators, this guy thinks that too many evaluators, probably especially like media type guys, don't factor in how important first down still are in terms of stopping a run. I think it's a really, really good point.

And it's something that, again, even as a novice who does this for two months a year as I watch draft guys, it's something that I've re-evaluated and how I think about it. Because the way that the fronts look like in the NFL right now, the way you want to keep certain quarterbacks in the pocket, I feel like we've had more teams, maybe this is anecdotal, but even in my own thinking, I've kind of come around to the way the Patriots think about this compared to some other teams. And I think it's causing you rethink the way I look at players that are exactly like that. So it's interesting that you bring that up.

Teatric wise is a great example. Yes. That might be why a guy like Adrian Hutchinson goes number one. You know, he's not that super bendy, you know, Vaughn Miller. This is not who he is, and there's no secret about that. But the guy is nonstop. He can win with his hands. He's very skilled with the way he uses his hands.

And so he's going to make plays versus a run. He's going to make plays versus a pass. A guy like that, low bus potential. And he might, I don't, I mean, he's got, I think he's got future Pro Bowls. him, but he might never be mentioned among the elite of elite pass rushers, but he's probably going to get double-digit sacks every year. He's just going to be a quality pass rusher, and a lot of that is because of the skill in his hands, the power and how he plays, and just the motor doesn't quit. But Kingsley and I'm Aigvare, just to get to my original point, is physically

beating guys up. He's a brute. He is. And I mean, and I mean that... It's still a physical game. At the More of it, it's still a physical game. That's the highest praise I can pay is that this guy is a brute. And he's physically imposing his will on guys. And it still matters. Just like you said, I mean, it matters when one guy is much stronger than another one because, and I'll never forget when my dad talked about, he had a tackle who had to deal with Everson Griffin. He's like, it is a nightmare.

David Bokhtiar, ask David Boktiari how fun to play gets ever since. Well, when Everson Griffin figures out that you don't have an anchor, it's lights out. Kingsley and Ibarry is another guy who if you don't have an anchor he will rip through you he may not always get there and that's why I'm having to be careful about George Karloftus because I'm not the biggest fan of his yeah I'm sorry the Purdue defensive end who is you know his sack production isn't great it's okay but they rolled all their protections to him this year so I I factor that in but he is a powerful

powerful rusher. And I'm to the point where I don't love the run defense as much, but I really appreciate how strong he is, the ability to cave in the pocket. Once you have that, once you can cave in a center, a guard, or a tackle, once you can cave them in, now guys on the other side have to make alterations to their pass blocking. And now you've screwed things up. Now when they make alterations, defense coordinators can now scheme it so that they take advantage of things that you've now had to do. It's a big chess game. I mean, it's a big chess match. And once your pawns are beating the piss out of the other team's

pawns, it's a problem that you have to deal with. I'm sorry. Having a conversation with a scout about this, this is I think over the summer. We were talking about pass rush and he kind of like reminded me like number one thing is can he break down the rhythm

of the blocker? It doesn't matter how you do it. I mean, it could be of speed, it power. However you can do it, just straight technique. If you can break down the rhythm of the blocker, that's the number one job. If you can do that, that great way to look at it. It's such a good way to look at it. And I think the Trey Hendrickson thing, or just remind the AFC championship game is on my mind.

When you're so worried about having his helmet in your chest over and over and over and over again, one speed rush can lead to a sack in a huge moment. And it's funny that you talk about the power and you're always going to have the power. And we talk ourselves into these bendy guys. We think, oh, when he gets that speed to power, what can he be? that's all hypothetical. The power is not hypothetical. Even if it becomes the only thing you can do,

it's always going to be useful. If you're only a speed guy all the time, you never break the rhythm of anything. You remember Charles Johnson? Yeah, Charles Johnson's on a great example. All six two of them. Power rushers and guys who are physical at the point of attack, base ends,

you don't have to have 14 and a half sacks to be a good defense event. That's my point. So he's been a pleasant. So long, I come all the way back around. He's been a pleasant surprise for me because I was down on him a little bit. And I'm going to reassess him based on the value to a team. In other words, you have to remember that his value is going to be specific to a specific team.

But if they draft him, my grade should be higher because he's going to be plugged in to what he's meant to be, which is a tough-ass base end. I'll be surprised he wasn't the top 50. I mean, I think what he offers, and watching the practice tape from Tuesday, their power, you're right, going right through guys. There was a rep where he took the wrist of the blocker, threw it away, and then went right through. I mean, he was winning in some different ways. It's all based on power, but he was mixing it up with just how exactly he was beating the tackle. So, yeah.

Oh, he has some skill. Yeah, there's skill there. You look at the box scored. It's like, oh, four and a half sacks last year. Okay. but when they let him rush the passer, it seemed like he was getting disruption. So, you know, I wasn't with you.

I was not blown away with him, did not have a huge grade on him, but I still always, like he was good enough to make my top 50. He was good, you know, like I'm talking like somewhere in that 35 to 50 range. And this week, I think he's showing just a little bit more of,

you know, that he can play big boy football. How about you, Dane? Just guy you've watched, it's like, okay, all right, I like that a little bit. I think you mentioned Devante Wyatt, Lance. And this is a guy, obviously, that Georgia defense, a lot of future pros on that team, especially that side of the ball.

And with Devante Wyatt, and what they asked him to do on that defensive line where it's an odd front and, you know, they don't allow him to attack gaps on a consistent basis and get upfield. they kind of let that for the edge rushers and for inside blitzes from the linebackers. But Devante Wyatt, you get him in a one-on-one situation down here, all of a sudden you see that speed. You see that quickness off the ball. And so I think Devante Wyatt, I thought, I gave him a second round grade based off the tape.

He's played much better here when he has a chance to just kind of let loose and show off that athleticism than he has. I think Devante Wyatt is a classic case So when you watch Georgia, they were so team-oriented. This is your fit. This is your fit. Linebacker's going to flow.

And this is how we're going to play. It's why they were so good because they rarely busted. They were just, they all had their job and did their job. But I'm sitting here watching Wyatt. And I'm like, man, it looks like old school Tommy Harris coming out of who was drafted by the Bears. You know, he is a guy who had really good snap quickness. He's got that slap, that little slap and hops, hop step to access the edge whenever he wants to.

And he's winning with snap quickness. And he has enough strength at the point of attack where if you want to single block him now, he can lock out on you and cause some problems for an offensive lineman too. So he's been a guy that I am going to regrade because I see him in a different format. And I recognize this translates. I don't have to see a whole lot of that. That's the advantage of the senior bowl. You know, it is nothing against that Georgia defense, obviously,

it's a great unit, but letting him take him out of that situation and letting him shine in a situation like this, I really helped show his ability and his traits, and that gets you excited about what he could be. I think he's a natural three technique. Speaking of my personal biases, players exactly fitting that mold are part of my personal bias. Tommy Harris included.

I did that for you. We just try to see how many more bears. I am totally fine with that. somebody if he hadn't gotten hurt would be remembered in a much different life than he is. All right, let's get to, let's bring the tone down a little bit here. Some disappointments for you, guys that you wanted to see a little bit more from this weekday. And you're like, I wish there was something there that I'm just not seeing right now. You know, is this where we have the quarterback conversation?

If you want it to be, we can have it here. I mean, it's, I don't want to, you know, be too negative here because I want these quarterbacks to come down here and, you know, compete. I don't want them to shy away from this type of opportunity. But to this point in two practices in, none of these quarterbacks have really shined. Or at least, because we talked about it before, this is a big opportunity in a quarterback class that is largely unsettled. And there's not a clear quarterback one. Six of the first seven quarterbacks who will be drafted are here in Mobile. And who's going to step up?

Who's going to be that guy? and we just haven't seen that quarterback do that up to this point. Now, Daniel Jones showed the Giants that, hey, I'm worth a six pick. All it takes is one team. And, you know, Kenny Pickett hasn't necessarily. He's been okay, but he hasn't done that. Ritter's been up and down. If I had to pick a quarterback right now, who I think has been the most impressive,

I think I'm saying Bleak Willis, just because... What about it? What about his week? I think that because seeing the ball come off his hand him, he's got big time arm strength, and you see that on the tape, but it's just differencing it in person. really intriguing body type. He's six foot, like six foot even, but he's 220. He's well put together. His calves are huge.

So he almost looks like a running back, which is the way he looks. But this is a guy that can move. And I think on tape he was at his best vertical shots, down the sideline, down the scene where it's, you know, touch, trajectory. I mean, he was very natural there. And I think we've seen that here where he's been a little inconsistent is when it's a little more timing and you want frozen ropes to the outside or over the middle of the field.

And that's where I still want to see more out of him. But, you know, you need a superhero trait to play quarterback at a high level in this league. And he at least has the potential to do that. And I think he's shown flashes of being able to do that this week. I don't know. Has there been a quarterback for you, Lance, that has given you anything that maybe didn't know coming in? No, not really. I felt like these quarterbacks showed who they were on tape.

Like I feel like I know who they are. And Malik Willis is the guy. I would probably agree with you because he's made some plays during the practices that will look like what you'll see in the NFL, scrambling right and making a throw yesterday to Bellinger tied in from San Diego State where I'm like, yeah, I could see this happen in an NFL game. Scambling left away from pressure and beating. The pursuit around the corner for a gain of about seven before running out of bounds.

Yep, that's what you'll see in games too. So I know about the physical attributes. I think being in a different passing scheme will really help him on the next level. We'll just see where he ends up. And that's the biggest projection is trying to just – and you talk to him, a really smart guy. Every – you talk to his coaches at Liberty, they rave about him as a person, as a learner, as someone in the building. Yeah.

But, you know, when you're talking about putting him in a different scheme and all the different terminologies and all the different things you're asked to do, it's not only can he do it, but what's the timeline? You know, when is he going to be ready to do it? Are we talking about a year from now? You know, we thinking he's going to be a starter going into year two, is it going to be longer than that? And so the game is just so different coming from college to pro. And I think, you know, for me, he'd be better in a levels passing attack where he works off play action,

the Kyle Shanahan type stuff where you simplify the reeds a little bit because I felt like they had too much stuff out there for him to look at. And I think that happens with a lot of quarterbacks unless you, you know, Trevor Lawrence was in an offense where they had it simplified pre-snap. And one of the things that I did some homework on it, and it wasn't that simple for Malik, his offense. It wasn't the same kind of reads. And so I feel like a lot of quarterbacks, the reason that boot action, old school, Mike Shanahan to Gary Kubiak to Kyle Shanahan. offense is such an effective one is because, A, it incorporates the run, but B, it allows quarterbacks the opportunity to really see the field more clearly and get guys moving on

the run so they're throwing in space instead of just a tight windows, and they're making level reads where they can work the, you know, work from top all the way down. So I think that will really benefit him. But yeah, quarterback-wise, it just, I think Ritter, he looks like his operation time is a little slow on tape, you could really feel it here at practice. There's a little bit of a wind-up. He's not a big rocket arm guy, so I feel like that's gotten him a couple of times this week as well. And just in general, quarterbacks have not been as accurate as I would like for them to. Carson Strong's arm looks great from an arm strength standpoint. Except for those arm arm punts that he had on those deep balls weird. Yeah. And that's something that was surprising to me

because I feel like he was almost trying to hang it up too much. I'm not sure what he was doing there. It's almost like someone dared him. Hey, can you hit that cloud? I know it's weird, but I mean, we have to point out, obviously, down for today. You know, it's tougher with a wet ball. It's tougher. Windier.

Right. I mean, elements factor in. Receivers all were taking her gloves off because of the tight ends too. Yeah. Tomorrow will be huge. We're talking about day three. It's the last day of practice. And it's indoors.

So we're running out of excuses. You know, you've had X amount of days working with these coaches, working with these receivers, no elements tomorrow in practice. And so tomorrow's going to be huge for these quarterbacks to say, okay, this is your last chance. Who's going to step up? Who's going to step into that spotlight? And I'm really fascinated to see who does that, if anyone do. Yeah, I'm not, you know, for me, the weather's not going to be good tomorrow either. So I just, I can't get too excited.

about the quarterbacks. I'm almost... They're indoors. They're inside them or tomorrow. Are they going to you for sure? For sure. For sure. For sure.

They already announce it. It will help. Yeah, it will help. I would always rather see someone working in pads than in the combine setting. That's true. So we'll see what they do. I feel like this quarterback class is just, it's kind of finding its niche, and the niche is not really the best niche in the world.

And I do find talent and guys. I just don't, I don't see the guy that is face of the franchise necessarily in this draft class. But I already knew that. But I thought Kenny Pickett might become that guy. And I still have some hold out a little bit of hope for Matt Corral. And I think that, I think that Desmond Ritter is a very smart game manager and is really improved as a quarterback.

And Malik Willis, to me, your ability to run like that, that doesn't go away unless you get hurt. I mean, he is a special, special runner. and if you can just be solid as a pastor with that kind of explosiveness with your legs, I've just seen what it can do in the NFL. So I don't take that for granted. I think that is a huge skill set now. What do you think Kenny Pickett can do tomorrow to help himself?

And just if we're talking about being that face of the franchise guy and just being indoors, having a little bit more of a level playing field to kind of show off what he can do, what do you want to see from this, him specifically tomorrow. Right. And we know he doesn't have a power arm and that's okay. But I think you just want to see better timing on three. throws better placement, you know, where a guy looks like he's covered, he throws them open, which, you know, it's not the easiest thing to do in these drills.

But it's something that we've seen quarterbacks do before. So, you know, it's, when I look at these quarterback class, I ask myself, okay, do we see any, do any one of these guys, could they, do you have any conviction that they could be a top 15 quarterback in the NFL? And I struggle with that. I struggle to think that, hey, any one of these guys, like last year, we felt, I think you felt good about almost all five of those guys that at some point in their career, they could be a top 15 quarterback in the NFL.

With this quarterback class, you just don't get that vibe from them. And it's going to be, it's going to be tough for them to get there. But again, maybe there's a Giants this year who see a Daniel Jones and say, you know, maybe Gettleman's, you know, peeking around a corner saying, oh, okay, I see it like that guy. I don't know. I almost promised you there will be. one of those because there are enough desperate teams. Quarterback desperation is a real, real thing.

And I mean, I teamed, not ever, or general managers and head coaches, I think they, a lot of them are realistic. They know they don't, next year's not guaranteed to them. And so it's not easy to say, well, wait next year for Brace Young or C.J. Stroud or whoever, you know, it's just not that easy. A lot of these decision makers don't have that luxury. So it will be fascinating with this quarterback class. The conversation is going to continue.

I don't know that we're going to learn all that much. At least we're not going to learn what we hoped from the senior bowl that maybe about these quarterbacks. Maybe we were really looking to. Because that was kind of the strange part about this year, right? Was that we had all these quarterbacks and we typically don't because of how the quarterback class setup is a little bit weird this year where you don't have those prospects we've been talking about for the last five years. A lot of guys had played a while. So this was a rare opportunity to get maybe a better sense of these guys than we would in a normal season.

And that hasn't happened. No, it has. But, you know, there's still time. And once again, once you get to the next level, once you get to the league, we just witnessed the greatest quarterback in the history of the sport who was drafted in the sixth round and it was hard to find. So I'm not suggesting that's going to be the case. But what I am telling you is that to Dane's point, players get better.

And Desmond Ritter got better from last year to this year. Kenny Pickett got substantially better from last year to this year. I thought Matt Corral has showed immense. improvement in decision making, and he's not at the senior bowl, but immense improvement in decision making and taking care of the football. And so when you look at improvement, there's three quarterbacks right there who I think improved and got better. So I do think there is some hope that guys will continue to move forward. Anything else? Closing thoughts. Dane, something you just got to get off before we get out of here.

Shout out Cole Strange, Chattanooga. I kind of called him this year as Quinn Miners. like what he could do in terms of first respect to no gloves as an offensive lineman that got to give him that shout out. I assume that'll change. Yeah, but we're talking about a guard center who I think could work his way into the top 100. I think he has that type of ability. Tight ends. I think a lot of people are saying, Trey McBride, tight end one, done deal.

I don't know. I think tight end one's a little open. I think Jeremy Rucker is a good player. Isaiah likely is a good player. They're different types of tight ends. but I think tight ends maybe a little bit wide open and then I think just want to kind of book in the conversation just going back to the defensive line, how dominant has been.

We didn't even mention Epiquetti. Jesse Lucetta has had some flashes. Dominique Robinson, your guy, I thought has... You just mentioned two guys from Penn State. Like how many prospects are Penn State going to crank out? Every year. It's unbelievable. So, I mean, defensive line,

there's a lot that we didn't even get a chance to talk about who are having a good week here and helping themselves. So defensive line is going to be a common thread throughout the strap process. Yeah, and I would say to your point, I think Strange has played really well here and shown that he, you don't have to be the biggest looking guy,

but I thought he's held up pretty good against the power of the guys across from him. And just to, you know, just full disclosure, my dad is actually working with Cole Strange. And so, you know, I gave him a heads up on what does he look like? and, you know, to give me an idea, and I let him watch some tape. And he thought the same thing when he worked with him.

He said, smart moves well, great athlete. He said strong, good hands. And it's all the stuff we saw here. I don't know. I think my dad worked with him on some hand stuff and some technique stuff. But he's really helped himself a great deal. I thought the same thing. You can look at him as zone scheme guy, and, you know,

we'll see where people put a zone scheme center in Tyler Lindenbaum, who is a zone scheme. scheme only center. He's going to be about 6-2, 290 pounds. He's his own scheme guy. He's Garrett Bradbury. Garrett Bradbury. He is. Yeah. And he went in the first round. But I think Strange is showing himself that maybe he's a little more scheme diverse than just being his own scheme guy. At 303 pounds, he looked physically strong enough to hang in. So it'll be interesting. It's been, it's been fun so far. Welcome, by the way, to Mobile for the first time, experiencing this. I've been coming since 2001 was my first senior bowl experience and I fell in love

after that. And this is when all the coaches used to come. Yeah. And all the front office guys. And you could just see, oh my God, look at that. That's that guy. And you were just blown away by the people. And you still see the front office guys, but not the coaches so much. But now the Draftics and the people who are listening to this podcast who want to be part of it. And they've all come and it's like a little mecca where people come to to be part of the evaluating community it's fun and it's a lot of fun I'm happy to be here I'm happy to eat some oysters I'm happy to see you guys in person it's great to do this it's great to see both of you appreciate you taking the time appreciate all of you guys taking the time to listen you do me a favor please

rate and review the show wherever you listen to your podcast we're getting to the end of the season if you like the show let us know if you didn't don't worry about doing anything please subscribe to the athletic you can read danes report from the Senior Bowl on The Athletic right now. Theathletic.com slash football show. We have plenty of draft coverage, Super Bowl coverage, everything you could possibly want at this time of the year in the NFL calendar. So please go check that out.

We will be back tomorrow with Nate Tice and Bill Barnwell. We're going to talk about the lessons we learned from the final four teams that played in the conference championship games this weekend. Always feel like it's a good little team building, roster construction, themes of the season, type of study to do. So we're going to do that for a Friday show. In the meantime, hope you guys enjoy the show. We'll talk to you later.

This was the athletic football show.