The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - 2022 NFL Draft: Free agency's draft impact & o-line deep dive with Brandon Thorn

Episode Date: March 16, 2022

How has the Russell Wilson trade and the first bit of free agency frenzy impacted the top of the draft and Brugler & Zierlein's mock drafts? They run you through their analysis of the free agent signings before welcoming Brandon Thorn of Bleacher Report to dive into the o-line class and which names could be of value across the league. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. I'm Dane Bruegler, joined as always with NFL.com's Lantzirlein. This is the Athletic Football Show, our midweek NFL draft edition. Today, we'll be talking with offensive line guru, Brandon Thorne, his favorite lineman in the class, how does he sort through the top guys? What does he think Jacksonville is going to do at number one? And, you know, we'll take a whole totality look at the offensive line group. But Lance, we're in the middle of peak free agency right now.

So we've seen plenty of player movement the last week and a half. A lot of money being thrown around, a few trades, a lot of draft implications. So that's where I want to focus on to start here. Let's start with that Russell Wilson trade. We haven't really talked since then. He goes from Seattle to Denver. Seahawks get back multiple players, multiple picks, including the Broncos' first and second rounders this year. So the Seahawks, they have that number nine pick.

overall. My first reaction was it's going to be a quarterback, right? But when you look at their roster, man, they have so many needs. I mean, they could go past rusher there. They could go offensive tackle there. There's just so many different directions. They could go at number nine. What are you thinking now with Seattle holding that number nine pick? Well, I was putting an unenviable task if I had to have a mock draft on. I finished the mock draft. It got published the very next day. And then an hour later, Russell Wilson was traded to a team who I had Malik Willis going to, Denver. And so I said, you know what? Keep them there.

I'll just change up the write-up. A, it's easier for me, but B, I mean, you can obviously make a point and make a case for quarterback going at number nine now to Seattle without question. But as you mentioned, Seattle is finally in rebuild mode. We're not in reload mode. We're not in shuffle around mode. I think once you've taken back, you've moved Russell Wilson and you've taken back Drew Locke, you are speculative at best.

And so you are clearly in a position where you need to add draft capital and then start to rebuild your roster. So I do think that, yes, if you're not all in on a quarterback in this draft, you wait it out until next year because you'll have additional draft capital next year as well from that trade. But I still think that they are in play with a quarterback at night. number nine. I don't know why you wouldn't be. I don't know if Seattle would see Drew Locke. I'm not sure there's anything there that would tell you Drew Locke is the answer. Sure, you'd love to see what you have this year. But if you drafted a quarterback, you could still let Drew

Drew Locke be the bridge quarterback this year while you let Malik Willis or Kenny Pickett, for example, one of those two guys, you know, sit and learn, take mental rep. So I still think quarterback is definitely in play there for them. But as you mentioned, there's so many. They have a ton of draft capital now over the next couple of years and so many holes that you really, I think they're a very unpredictable team right now at number nine. Yeah, no question. They could go, they need a pass rusher, you know, Kave on Tibado, keep them in the Pacific Northwest. Dwayne Brown's a free agent. They need to help at both tackle spots. So Charles Cross is there or Trevor Penning. I think that's a possibility. They could go corner with one of these guys.

Trent McDuffie's right down the road. So, yeah, there's just so many different directions they could go there at number nine. I think, yeah, you're right. It's just they're a wildcard at this point because they don't have the quarterback of the future on the roster. And so do they address that at number nine? And it's kind of a kind of pivoting to Washington two picks later at number 11. We thought that was probably the most likely spot for a quarterback to be the first quarterback off the board. They make a trade for Carson Wentz.

And I mean, theoretically, they could still go quarterback. just double down and, you know, try to get the position right. But more likely they now pivot and go a different direction. And so you look at Pittsburgh as well. I don't think signing Mitch Trubisky is going to keep you from drafting a quarterback. But a lot of these dominoes are falling. And it just, it was already tough to figure out how these quarterbacks were going to fall in the first round. Now it's even more difficult.

You're looking, I think, number six is still, I mean, the biggest fish out there is the Sean Watson. We don't know how that's going to play out. But Carolina at 6 and then Seattle at 9, I'm okay saying Washington at 11, they're not going to draft a quarterback now at number 11. Do you agree with me there or you still think there's a possibility? I still think there's a possibility. I mean, when you look at Carson Wentz, you can get out of his contract next year. How much they gave up?

I don't. Why did they give up what they get? I mean, I don't. Hey, the Colts gave up a first and had him for one year. You're giving up potentially. Yeah, not great. You're giving up potentially a two and a three. And listen, I mean, Washington is in position to where they think we've got a chance to win this division. And I think it's reasonable if you're anyone maybe accepted giants because I have not seen enough growth from them. But I think it's reasonable. Philadelphia, Washington, Dallas. I think you believe that you can compete for a division title in the AFC East. I think that's reasonable. But at the same time, I don't think that this is a sign until you show me a long-term. deal. I don't think this is a sign that you lock it. Now, do I think quarterback has gone down? Yes. What I could see, though, is trading back. I can see them trading back from number 11 trying to add some of that, the draft capital they lost in that deal, try to move back from 11, add more of it and still potentially look at a quarterback, a Matt Corral, a Desmond Ritter.

You know, what if you move from number 11 back to number 18 with the Saints and the Saints get a quarterback there? And then you move from number 18. You move back again. into the 20s. In essence, you will have added all the picks. More than likely, you add a third and a second for those moves, and probably more than that. And you still get your hands on Desmond Ritter. So I could still see a scenario where you add draft picks. You get a quarterback. I'm not saying it's the favorite, but I don't think we should take quarterback off the board for Washington just yet. I still think quarterback, there is no signs that they believe Carson Wentz is the long-term answer there. He is just the now answer. But, That's fair. That's fair.

Yeah, but what it did is it gave you a chance to really look at the board completely branched out and you say, okay, we can truly go best available. Yeah. Well, and I think they view themselves kind of what you were alluding to as a win now team. And they looked at the quarterback options. And once Russell Wilson was not an option, Seattle, you know, they wanted to trade them out of the NFC. once Russell Wilson was not an option, they looked over, okay, who's our next best quarterback we can go get,

and they landed on Carson Wentz. Deshawn Watson was never really, I think, a big consideration with all those, everything going on with that franchise and everything going on with Deshawn Watson. It was not going to be a fit. And I think they looked at Carson Wentz as the next best guy they could go after.

And so that's what they did. And that's why I don't think you're going quarterback at 11 or even early is because I think they look at this roster and say, we're going for it now. And so, you know, they, I would like to, and if that's their mindset, you know, look at a guy like Garrett Wilson.

You know, I'd like to see the all-bukai wide receiver depth chart there with McLaurin and Curtis Samuel and add Garrett Wilson in there. And, you know, all of a sudden, you've got a little bit more juice on that offense for a, for a division that's, you know, to your point, it may be, you know, it's not, there's not one team that you look at and say, yeah, they're going to run away with things.

Ultimately, it is a, you know, anytime you're looking at quarterback, you have to look at, when you try to figure these mock drafts out, and the free agency, of course, just changes all of your mock drafts completely. But you do have to balance, okay, are they win now or they win later? What is the head coach's situation? Like Carolina is in this Deshaun Watson sweepstakes because Matt Rules is, let's face it, he's on the hot seat. He's going to be a little bit desperate, but at the same time, Deshawn Watson is not a

short-term solution. He's a long-term solution. So you totally get that. Chris Ballard is in a situation now where there's not an answer for it. Like, you can work all day on that puzzle and there is no 20-22 answer. You're not going to find an answer in the draft because you don't have a first-round pick. I mean, the only way that you do is you start chasing bad money with bad money. And that's never a good situation to be in. When you get into this quarterback carousel that the Colts are in, and you get into it, and they're not the first team. I've seen the Buffalo Bills over. the years do it, Cleveland. When you get into a position where you're not sure what to do a quarterback,

one of the hardest things is being a good team that needs quarterback to really unleash you because the problem is you start to, you know, you start to make, okay, you understood Philip Rivers. That's a Band-Aid guy. Let's see what happens. You understood taking the shot without question. I think the Carson Went shot was well worth taking. Because that's Frank Reich's guy.

Like you took the chance. And now, like, what do you do? you now, Jimmy Garoppolo? Not really. You're not going to be into Deshawn sweepstakes because, A, you don't have a first round pick and B, he's not being dealt in the division. They already came out and said, the Texans aren't even going to listen to anything the Colts even have to say. They said lose our phone number. Don't call us about Deshawn Watson. So when we're talking about quarterbacks, I do think that teams, their strategies can, you can throw the idea of who helps us win right now. Sometimes you throw that out and you have to look at what's a what's a GM and the head

coach situation. Because if they're desperate, everything's on the board. If they're safe and I think Ron, I think Washington counts as that scenario, they don't really have to press a quarterback. Now, some would say they did press a little bit with Carson Wentz, but I would argue once again, they could trade back and get a lot of that draft capital back. Yeah. And we saw the Vikings kind of re-up with Kirk Cousins. He's basically going to be a starter there. the next two years, which I think makes sense for them. You know, they looked at this quarterback draft class and basically said, no thanks. Yeah, there's not a quarterback in this group that we really feel that strongly about.

And so we're going to keep Kirk for two more years. And then maybe we draft a quarterback in next year's draft. And he spends one year behind Kirk and then he's ready to take over in 2024. And there are some interesting things going on in Cleveland, which they're pretty open about meeting with Sean Watson, which if you're Baker Mayfield, you know, it's something that, obviously, the Browns won't upgrade from you. And how are you, are you going to take that as a, you know, okay, well, I'll show them and I'm going to play really well this year if the Sean Watson trade doesn't work out or are you, okay, well, I'm turning the page as well. So I, the Cleveland

Brown's quarterback situation is a little, a little up in the air right now. And that's going to be how that works out. Quarterback Carousel keeps spinning. A few other free agency things. You mentioned how some of these moves changes how you look at like a mock draft. And it's funny because it's like the charger sitting there in the teens played around with giving them a wide receiver. Played around with a pass rusher in my last mock draft. Maybe like a David Ajabo. Played around with, you know, a corner, all areas of need. Okay. Well, so far this offseason, they've J.C. Jackson signed him to a deal. traded for Khalil Mack, re-signed Mike Williams. So the chargers are taking advantage

to that Justin Herbert rookie contract and really making it a true wild card what they're going to do at pick number 17 because they could go in a lot of different directions. On the other hand, go back to the Browns, they make a trade for Amari Cooper, which is a no-brainer deal if you have the cap space, which they do.

And to get him for a fifth and a swap of six-round picks, pretty smart decision for them, upgrade the wide receiver, but I don't, they could easily still draft the receiver at 13. Because, you know, Cooper, he's not the long-term option. He could be gone after this year if they I would argue. I would argue wide receiver still a major need for them. Yeah, it absolutely is. And so, you know, I, but I think it also gives them the flexibility to go pass rusher if they want, you know, because they want to get better at pass rusher. So it's, it's an interesting mix with some of these teams, what they have done in free agency and how it affects the drafts.

any of these moves stand out to you as something that will really alter how maybe the team attacks the first round? Not necessarily. I think some, you know, some of the ones we've talked about, I think, do. Obviously, the Pittsburgh Steeler one doesn't do anything to me to alter it. You've just given yourself a secondary option. But, no, I think that you can steal, you can still take a look at, well, let's see how things play out.

You know, Jacksonville is clearly was never going to draft a wide receiver one. They've thrown a bunch of money at it. I think for me, I still think Cam Robinson could be a one-and-done guy, gives you a chance to add a piece there and give you another year to decide if you want to go long-term with Cam Robinson. So I don't necessarily, but I do think the Brandon Shurf move makes it maybe a little more curious because when you look at that offensive line, yeah, you can still go Ikey or Neal and you could plug them in a guard, and you'd be just fine, and you could eventually kick one of those. those guys out to left tackle in place of Cam Robinson if you don't want to stick with it.

And if you do, well, you just potentially drafted a guard with the first pick of the draft, which is not something that typically resonates with people. But remember, Laramie Tunsell started his career at guard as well. He was not the first pick, but he had excellent talent and then eventually made his way out to tackle. So I don't know that I see anything that's going to alter it substantially. but once the entirety of free agency is over and we get through the first two waves, then I might change that. I might change that opinion because if I see a team that needs wide receiver,

I think the Browns could still address wide receiver through free agency, and that would potentially alter my thinking there about wide receivers still being in the mix. Yeah. Well, we're going to talk more about the Jaguars at number one and offensive line, what they might do coming up here with Brandon Thorne. So let's get to that conversation after the break. excited now to bring in Brandon Thorne, one of the best offensive line analysts in the country, in my opinion. His trench warfare newsletter is as good as it gets for offensive line evaluation, both pro and college.

So Brandon, before we really jump into these prospects, maybe some of your favorite guys in this class, I wanted to get your initial reaction to the moves that, some of these free agency moves, especially the Jaguars. What they've done on the offensive line gave a big deal to Brandon Shurf. Obviously, they tagged Cam Robinson. What are your thoughts on those moves in relation to how maybe they're looking at that number one pick? And maybe do you think it changes their thinking at all? Yeah. So I do think it probably changes their thinking or what we thought they're thinking was, you know, going offensive tackle number one overall.

I don't think it completely rules it out necessarily. but I do think it probably diminishes those chances quite a bit just because now, assuming they keep Joanne Taylor, you know, I mean, they're going to have him, Cam Robinson, Walker Little as kind of their swing backup, you know, a tackle. So they really have three guys that could, you know, feasibly play tackle for them. Right now I see their whole being left guard, which they can address somewhere in day two. I think there's a lot of left guards in this class that I like. that could, you know, have to start a potential.

So to me, you know, I think this signals that they're probably going to go with, you know, a pass rusher, number one overall and then address that guard spot later in the draft. Well, the addition of Brandon Shurf also is a move that you have to take a look at. But I also, you know, I would point out that unless they get a long-term deal done with Cam Robinson, and that's also a potential one and done situation. So I think we have to keep an eye on how they address Cam Robinson from a long-term standpoint as well. And I guess we don't know how they feel about Walker Little, too. Do they view him as a long-term starter?

Do they view him as more of a third tackle? And so I think it's a little bit of an incomplete there. So it does make it tough because, you know, I think you could look at it and say, say they go icky, a number one. He could play left guard as a as a rookie and then maybe he's your long-term left tackle. I mean, I think that's, I don't know, Brayne, what do you think about that if they went that route? Yeah, I mean, even Evan Neal, you know, you play left guard, obviously. And yeah, I mean, I think they could do either one of those guys and go that route as well. That would make a lot of sense to me, too. So, yeah, I mean, you make good points. I think the biggest thing is to me, you know,

when they added Shurf and signed Cam Robinson for, you know, on the franchise tag is now they have, they're operating from a position of strength now, you know, I mean, to where they're not boxing themselves in and they, you know, give themselves options. And that's kind of how I see it. And I think they're in a pretty good spot now to kind of go wherever they want and they have a lot of viable options now. That always happens. We get our mock drafts going before free agency and then free agency invariably screws them up badly because the positions that we locate as weaknesses, the teams already know their areas of concern as well. And they address them and sometimes they address them full time. Sometimes they address them in a way where you're not sure if it precludes

a team from looking at that position or not. So it's always a tricky, the mock drafts after free agency, after the second wave of free agency, become the toughest mock drafts. Because just because just because you add a position player there, I mean, a player at a position I need, one of the biggest mistakes that I think a lot of people who put mock drafts together will make is that that precludes a team from drafting that position. But you really do need to look at length of contract, the amount of contract, how much that contract is guaranteed. Because you just mentioned the real key here, Brandon, and it's nobody wants to go into a draft

being boxed in where everybody knows what you're going to do. You don't want to be in that position because you have no leverage. You've got to have a secondary, you have to have a secondary course of action ready. And unfortunately for teams, free agency comes before the draft. So you have to make those moves before the draft. So it is a really interesting level of timing as it pertains to figuring out your draft board, figuring out free agency, and then combining the two when it comes time to actually draft players that you want for your long term and not just a short term. Right.

And I think that, yeah, that's the goal of free agency, right, is to get your roster in a good position so you can draft based off of best players and not necessarily chase the need. So, yeah, that makes a ton of sense. And last thing I'll say about the Jaguars, I know for a fact that they love Aiden Hutchinson. So I would not be surprised at all if they did go in that direction. and, you know, even though they have, they've got plenty of pass rushers. You know, they would not be surprised if that's the direction they go and look to just get the guy that they like the best at the top of their draft board. But, you know, Brandon, I did want to talk about these top guys. You know, we mentioned Ikea Kuanu.

You brought up Evan Neal. Let's throw Charles Cross and even Trevor Penning in that mix. How do you look at these top guys, especially in relation to maybe the past years? Yeah. I mean, to me, you know, Evan Neal and Iki Akuanu are the top two tackles. Cross is probably the most interesting, I guess, in a way, because I've had moments where I thought, man, you know, if somebody had him as the tackle one, I can understand it. But, you know, the more I've thought about his profile as a prospect and maybe some of the adjustments

that he's, you know, going to face, you know, going from the scale. that he played into the scheme he'll play in, you know, likely in the pros. It's, I think the transition will be a little bit more steep for him than the other two, just purely from a schematic standpoint and what he saw in terms of alignment and stuff like that of pass rushers. And not, you know, he has the traits to do it for sure. I still have, you know, high grade on him and all that. But to me, that's kind of what puts him in that third position. And then after that, you know, to round out the top five, you know, for me, it's, it's, it's, Raymond and then penning.

And those guys pretty much have a very similar grade to me. It's like late first, early second, kind of rain like fringe first round grade. And for that, it's because I think they both have, you know, significant concerns. Penning is more so technical. Just I think he plays pretty high. I think he has high pad level. You know, and he lets guys get underneath him and get inside of him too often. Even on tape in the FCS in Northern Iowa, I mean, you know,

he's granted, he's bullying guys a lot. And he has the power and the size and the strength that you want. But in terms of hand placement, you know, strike timing and things like that and playing a little high, I think those things still need to get cleaned up. I think we saw that at the senior bowl as well. And then Raymond, you know, he's older. He's going to be a 25 year old rookie. But he's still a very young offensive lineman in terms of experience level and how quickly

he's picked up the position to me. it makes him a slightly more appealing to me than penning. And, you know, his body control is very impressive. I think his contact balance and play strength are impressive as well. And, you know, 18 games into offensive line in his life and to be where he is, to me, that's, you know, that kind of leaps out about his profile. But, yeah, I've, you know, in terms of going to kind of circling back to the top two, Icky and Neil, that to me, man, is kind of a toss-up.

It just, to me, kind of in a nutshell, Icky has, if you're talking about like a trump card trait of these guys, I think his is the best in the class in terms of what he can do as a run blocker. You know, his explosive power is just, he could be a really dynamic guy in the run game. It's just a matter of, you know, what type of system does he go to? I think ideally he goes to a wide zone type scheme, a lot of play action RPO's where he can be aggressive and pass protection, not have to really play on an island too much. much, you know, things like that. I think that could really, you know, bode well for his development, because I think he has some stuff to clean up as a pass protector, specifically overstating guys and just, you know, his set points in general, whereas Neil, I think, might have a little bit more higher of a floor, and he still has a really high ceiling as well. So to me, Neil kind of

edges him out right now as tackle one for that reason. I really like Neil, man. I think he, for being as big as he is, even though now he's three, you know, high 330 is not 350 anymore, whatever he's going to play at in that 340 range, to be as smooth as he is in pass protection with his footwork. I think he has really good weight distribution as well, just good balance. You know, in the run game, maybe not as good of balance as you want. I think some of that could be cleaned up with his hands and stuff like that. But in patch protection, he really has what it takes, I think, to play on an island and to actually move pretty well laterally and things like that. I mean, I think initially when I started watching Neil, I was thinking,

okay, 350, okay, I'm going to be looking at a guy like Orlando Brown, Trent Brown, you know, my lot of one of these guys. And I see a guy who moves better than those guys. He's more fluid. And he has similar levels of power and things like that in the run game. So I really like Neil, man. I like both of those guys. But it just depends on how you want to address it. You know, Do you want to go with more of the enticing ceiling or do you want to go with the guy who's maybe a little bit more of a sure thing in Neil? And whatever way you go, I mean, I can understand both sides. First off, let me say you've picked up, you've picked up the two, to me, the two kind of litmus test

discussions, Neil versus Icky and then Raymond versus Penning. Because I think there's interesting discussions to be had in terms of how you rank both of those guys against each other. I think for me, so if you look at the 2020 tape, Neil is a slower. Plotting's not fair because he still moved well at right tackle, but he's a much bigger guy, and he's a much more athletic lighter player, 15 pounds lighter in 2021. The tape just shows a lighter player there on the left side, and he's even, he's even, you know, lean down a little bit beyond that and really has good weight there on his body as well.

I think the one thing that stood out to me in watching these two guys is the safer guy for sure is Neil from a standpoint of technique, who you feel like you know who he is right now. Ike's still got some stuff. You talked about the past. I've got some pastbro concerns with Ike, and it doesn't always get cleaned up. Greg Robinson is an example of that. You can be a very aggressive, powerful guy, and it's not automatically going to get cleaned up. But I'd also point out Tristan Wirth had a real problem with oversetting at Iowa in running.

game and pass pro and he got it cleaned up very very quickly so it can go both ways i think the one thing that separates icky a little bit from from evan neal and i want to get you guys thoughts on this i don't see the same level of fire and grit and determination from evan neal that i see from icky and that's less a comment about evan neal more comment about hickie i don't think neal is that nasty finisher who always looks to finish blocks icky is always looking to finish and icky is always looking to finish. And I'm not talking about throwing someone down or this stuff that people get excited about on Twitter. I'm talking about a guy that stays connected and is looking to impose his will to the whistle every single time. And sometimes Neil will kind of back off just a little bit.

Icky never backs off. And I absolutely love that about him. And I think that to your point, watching tape of Icky, and it's like play one and play 72 are exactly the same. It doesn't matter. First quarter, fourth quarter, doesn't matter what the scoreboard says. It's the same demeanor, the same, I want to snatch your soul type of blocking from Icky. And the other thing that I think is in his corner too. And again, this isn't necessarily saying anything about Evan Neal. It's more about praising Icky is the interview process. Talking to a scout last week about him, he said just how impressive he was in terms of both football.

all X's and O's, but also, like, he wouldn't shut up about his teammates. Like, just talking about, like, I mean, he was very, very polished talking to NFL teams during the interview process. And again, that's nothing that Evan Neal isn't, but just it's more of a feather in the cap for Iquanoo. And I know, I know, Brandon, you've seen and heard kind of the same things. Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's a lot that I wanted to kind of circle back on there with both of you said,

what both of you guys said, which I think is very interesting. Like the Ike and Greg Robinson thing from what I've heard about like Greg Robinson was, you know, just the mental side of it, like not picking up on concepts and things like that was a major detriment to his development. Whereas I think Icky really kind of separates himself from Robinson in those ways from what I've heard in terms of, you know, football intelligence and things like that. So that could be one differentiator between those two. but I do understand kind of the comparison just physically and just some of the things that needed to be cleaned up there. And yeah, another thing that I wanted to kind of touch on to me, you know, it's all about like making bets, you know, with these projections and factoring in all the variables and just trying to make what you think is the safest bet, you know, and factoring in upside as well. and to me, Neil might be a little bit safer,

but Ikey has that home run potential. He has those traits that maybe Neil doesn't have. And I think that's kind of what we're all saying here. And it's kind of easier to convince yourself to go with Ikey in some ways. But then Neil, it's definitely a back and forth for me, like I said. And I really, I think so much of it depends on the infrastructure, you know, as it does with so many of these guys, who's around him, what players, what coaches, what scheme, all that type of stuff.

Another thing I want to talk about with Neil that I think is interesting too is he's never played the same position in back-to-back years yet. And I think that when he can actually settle in at one position, I think that that would probably help him to even clean up things more, refine things more. He's played three different positions in three years. So that's kind of another thing in his evaluation that I find kind of interesting in the whole projection process with them as well.

That's a great point. And I want to get the answer from both of you guys on this question. Let's include Sewell and Slater and even the guys the year before with Worf's and Will's and Thomas and Mackay Beckton. Where does Icky and Evan Neal, where do they stack compared to those guys who were all top 15 picks and have gone on to have quick. success in the NFL. Yeah. So, I mean, I could just kind of say up front that I didn't do full evaluations on that 2020 class.

I saw probably the most of works and wills. Didn't see much of Thomas at all. And then Beckton, I saw a little bit of. So I, as prospects, I'm not super, you know, dialed in on those guys. But just like from last year, you know, I still would have school probably at the top. And I think that Neil would. would be next and and then Aquano. I was, you know, Slater to me has a similar grade as cross, you know, more of like

right outside the top 10 grade, you know, but still like a mid first round grade. So that's kind of how I have cross and Slater similar there. But to me, it would be Sewell, Neal, Aquano. And then, I mean, I really liked wharfs and wills, you know, what I saw them. So I would say they're kind of in that conversation. I had it coming out, if I stuck with those grades, I had coming out, it'd be Wills. And then Neil, Sewell, and Slater are basically, they were tied for me. Bechton, Icky, and Worf's about the same, and then it would be Thomas.

And then Cross would be below, he'd be more in the Christian Darrasaw range. Still a good player. I like Christian Daryasaw a lot. I thought his upside was, I think Christian Daryl's upside is really, really high. It's just, you know, can you get into play consistently? But so I get asked that a lot about comparing draft classes. And it's interesting because, yeah, because I like to go back and like put a new grade on

works. Like what would my grade right now? This worst, what would it be? It'd be a 6.8. Like I'd have him extremely high. 6.8 is my, you know, my number for like Aidan Hutchinson. Wurfs would be the way he plays now would put him at the, basically, that's. top of the draft class. But I want to get your thoughts on. You talked about Icky being a body

mover, Brandon, earlier on, I'm going to get your thoughts on. You've got in your background for people who can't see this, you got one of the ultimate people movers in Quentin Nelson in the background there. You've got a jersey that's autographed and framed up. You know, I was watching Kenyon Green's tape, and I went in like, Kenyon Green's not having a good year. I saw him some in the Joe Moore Awards early on in the process, and we were, you know, going through the selections. But I hadn't really locked in on him since he had been moving back from tackle down in the guard where his natural position is. And when I went and studied him for, and the Aggies were not a Joe Moore Award finalist,

so I, you know, I stopped watching after a certain amount of time. When I started writing him up from my draft profile, I was really, really impressed with his power at the point of attack, his leverage, his ability to get his hands where he needed to to create leverage points and just his overall ability to drive people off the spot and unuproot them. Talk about how do you see Kenyon Green in this draft? Because Zion Johnson got a lot of talk at the senior ball, right? Tyler Linderbaum is every draft Knicks favorite pet player and every offensive lineman's pet player. But I want you to address specifically those two players.

Tyler Linderbom from a style slash lack of size standpoint, And then also Kenyon Green in terms of being kind of the lost off interior linemen who were really not talking a whole lot about, but I think is a really talented player. Yeah, we'll talk about Kenyon Green first. I mean, I agree with a lot of what you're saying about Green. I feel like I saw something very similar when I watched him. You know, first, you know, first couple lines in my report on positives, I have physical, rugged playing style with a wide base, good acceleration into contact. and he creates knockback power at the point of an attack, heavy hands to thump and feed defensive tackles over on double teams

and wash them down on down blocks. I mean, I feel like you saw that pretty consistently on his tape and that heavy inside zone scheme that Texas A&M runs. So he can definitely do that right away. I think he looks for work when uncovered and provides a lot of power in that way as well. So he has that girth and that wide base to set a firm anchor against the bull rush. I see all those things.

You know, the thing that kind of got me, and I don't know if I'm focusing too much on this, I don't know how I guess it's different for everybody, how correctable it is, but I saw kind of a radic, wide hand placement with kind of a bad habit of not always bringing his feet into contact, kind of leaning into blocks a little bit sometimes, not resetting his hands quickly enough to get out of poorly leveraged positions. So I would like to see him kind of reset. and refit a little bit quicker and then be better at the point of attack in terms of hand placement. Those were kind of some things, you know, that I saw it. And that, you know, could be something that's easily fixable, I think.

And then maybe not. So I don't know if you saw something similar there, but we can keep talking about him. But I'd like to hear what you say about that. Well, no, I think that's something that. And that's not always correctable, the hand placement stuff. like it is, but it doesn't mean it's going to get corrected. And I think one of the interesting points that to be a good evaluator at any level, you have to study, A, why you miss players, not why you hit them, but why you miss them.

And then the second thing is, what is correctable and what is not correctable? Because there's no way to project players if you're sitting there saying, oh, that's correctable. They're going to get better. We have to know because some of the issues does not have the ability to issues. And one thing that I know when I watched Tristan Wirf's tape with my dad, I've watched, my dad was a former O'Line coach in the league. And so we've looked at some players together. He's working with Cole Strange amongst three different linemen this year.

But he taught me a long time ago, I really asked him. I said, you know, we went through some things that are correctable, not correctible. And anytime you're dealing with muscle memory, it's a coin flipper about whether or not it's correctable. In theory, it's correctable. But when the bullets actually fly, as they say in the league, how do you respond? And it's not, you know, it's one thing to alter a golf swing or a basketball, you know, a shot, a three-point shot, a release. But you're not, you don't have people running into you who are 330 pounds or running around you who are 310 pounds.

it's a lot different when it's a physical activity that is going to challenge you either laterally or straight down the gut from a power standpoint. So I don't know that hands, they are theoretically correctable and indefinitely correctable from a one-on-one practice standpoint. But what happens, though, when you're faced with Aaron Donald in your face? Of course, that's the most extreme example you could possibly face. I think that's one of the interesting things that I wanted to get you guys takes on. And it could be Dane really for any position.

Like certain things, okay, if you're tight-hipped, you can't get in and out of breaks. You have to find ways to cheat getting in and out of breaks because you're not going to be able to sink in like everyone else. So how do you cheat the process so that you're still good at it? Or is it a scheme fit? You know, understanding what's correctable and not with pass rushers too. Because I always feel like offensive tackles and defensive ends, they're mirror positions. So the way you evaluate one is similar to the way you'll evaluate the other. To your point, when I first started doing this over 10 years ago, you know, doing reports and things like that, I had someone, you know, I was close to in the league that, you know, I would send them to my stuff and give me feedback and all that.

And I can't remember who the player was. But in his, you know, in his summary, I wrote, you know, blah, blah, blah, technique is this only going to get better. And he said never, ever include those words in your report that he's only going to get better because there's no guarantee. It's just it's, you know, until to what you're saying, it's muscle memory or just a way a guy. I mean, there's nothing that's said, even though theoretically, yes, he can get better in those areas, that it's is, there's no crystal ball that's going to tell you that absolutely he's going to get better. even if he works on it every day the rest of his life, no guarantee he's going to get better in that area. So it's something that I've learned to not put in my reports.

And I think it's fascinating that, and especially with the offensive line, we know how, you know, in the NFL, everyone's big and strong. It's about more technique than anything, you know, and winning leverage. And, you know, it's, when you get to the NFL, so much of that technical improvement is what separates the guys that start

and the guys that maybe, fall a little bit behind. So I don't know, Brandon, what do you think about that? Yeah, I totally agree. I feel like offensive line is such a skill-based position and skill acquisition is so critical to becoming a really good offensive line. And I think a lot of people think of skill positions, you know, quarterback receiver running back. But offensive line, man, is so heavily relying on skill, especially pass protection because it's so unnatural. You have to learn it. You know, it's not something that typically comes naturally, maybe run blocking a little bit more. But even then, very technical, can get technical, but pass protection moving backwards, man, it's so difficult.

And, you know, to expect a guy to improve upon that in the NFL from college, unless he went to like an FCS school or something like that, I don't think you can really expect a whole lot of improvement there. And that's why, you know, to get back to green a little bit, I have like a high second round grade on him, even though I know he's probably going to go in the first round. I just think there's some things there that need to get cleaned up. I, you know, in my, The last line in my summary, I say basically, you know, he has key foundational traits have become a long time, high quality starting guard in the NFL. He just has to clean up some bad habits and polish up footwork in hands before reaching

his potential. That's how I see him. I still really like him, maybe not as much as others, but I see a pathway for him becoming, you know, like I said, a high quality starter for a while if, you know, the key word there, I think he has some stuff to clean up. Another thing that's encouraging about him is he just turned 20, I think today actually. So he's extremely young.

And the runway for him to improve and kind of that leash on him, you know, in a way, I guess you could say, is very long. And that helps, you know, compared to somebody like Raymond, there's 25. I mean, you know, in four years, Green is going to be the age of him as a rookie. You know what I mean? And it's just like, so that helps him and works in his favor as well. Well, I think we need to give you like 60 seconds. so you could just gush about Zion Johnson because I know he's your he's your top guard right?

Yeah, yeah. I really like Zion, man. And it's all, it's 99% based on tape. You know, for him to ace, like the, I wouldn't say ace, but do well at the senior bowl, you know, not great, but I thought he was good, you know, playing a new position, stuff like that. And then the combine, he exceeded my expectations there in terms of the testing and all that. I saw more of an above average athlete on tape or, you know,

that range. I didn't really see maybe very good. So I think he plays, you know, maybe not quite to what his testing is in terms of, you know, like raw athleticism and stuff like that. But nonetheless, I really love, you know, the compact build that he has, his frame, thick-limbed, you know, and then that rugged physical playing style, but he knows how to balance it by being patient, by kind of tempering that physicality when needed. He processes things quickly, plays with a really low center of gravity, good pad level. He can really uproot guys as well in the run game, I think. And I love, you know, all the, all the blocks that you got to see him. Executed Boston College always helps, you know, the run and do well, the run in power, inside zone, outside

zone. So you got to see him do combos and doubles and down blocks and kickouts and pulling and, you know, all kinds of stuff. So you got to evaluate a lot of different scenarios. And it just made me feel really good about his evaluation. You know, his background is really interesting. Zero Star recruit, you know, Davidson, triple option, all the weight he's gained. That's all just kind of fun stuff. It's all good weight, though. Like, he's got great lean mass.

Oh, man. Like, you know, we talked about it, I think Lance at the senior bowl, like just looking at him. I mean, he just is built, man. I mean, he looks great physically, just on the hoof, you know, when you just see him. He's more smooth and explosive to me, like in space and things like that. He's not like maybe the twitchiest guy. I mean, if you want to, you know, find some dings on him. I don't know if he has an elite ceiling or anything, but I originally compared him to

Kevin Zitler as kind of a late first round grade. They're very similar size. And I just see like an above average starter right away for a long time. And that to me is worth like kind of more of like a late first round grade. That's where I have him. And yeah, I just see a polished kind of well-rounded guy with a lot of ways to to win and not a whole lot to clean up really, I think, with his game. He's really, I had him on my radio show.

And he came on, first of all, he came on at 745 Central. I don't know where he is right now, what area of the country, but for any young prospect or any football player at all to make any athlete at all, to make it on the radio at 745 in the morning is very impressive. And then what was more impressive is when I ask him, you know, he's got a master's in cybersecurity. So I asked him a question about cybersecurity. And we went from talking about his golf when he was in high school to his weight gain,

to his time at playing football at Boston College to a real-time answer about cybersecurity in this day and age. Just an incredible way, and I can tell you this for a fact. You talk about Greg Robinson and not picking up concepts, things like that. One of the, it's not really talked about publicly that much, but one of the, most important things and really a non-starter for a lot of offensive line coaches and evaluators is if an offensive lineman does not have a level of football intelligence, they won't touch them. Either they won't touch them or they downgrade them substantially because you have to

process so quickly on the interior, moving pieces, moving not only the moving fronts, but also your responsibilities change instantaneously. And then there's a level of instinct that goes into playing with the guy next to you, especially if you're a zone scheme, offensive line because you've got to know what adjustments that you're likely to make based on the way the fronts change and they respond. So Zion, for sure, hits all those marks for you. I want to get a little deeper before because I know we don't have a lot of time with you, but I want you to tell me some of your pet players in the second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth,

I don't care what round. Who are some centers, guards, tackles, who are some, you know, who might be some of your favorite guys that you watch? Yeah. So second third. Me and Dan get asked this all the time. Give us some players there in the middle rounds that Washington could potentially draft. Like that's that's so now we hit you with it. Yeah. Yeah. No, there are some guys I like. So, you know, a guy that I've been on pretty early, you know, right away, what I liked him was Marquise Hayes from Oklahoma. He was a guy who, you know, when you initially start watching, he. He was a guy who, you know, when you initially start watching, watching them. You see this big, long guy who once he gets latched into guy, he does a really good job of finishing, driving his feet and getting guys on the ground, creating torque and, you know, getting guys on the ground. And I, you know, that's always a fun player to watch. But the more I watched him, I realized that this guy's a pretty nuanced player. He's more skilled than I think

you would expect based on his playing style. And where I saw that was his ability to process line games and patch protection to be patient. And also like gap exchanges, which to me is something that gets guys in trouble on the line, especially on the interior on the college and pro level a lot, is when the picture changes post-snap. Explain gap exchanges to people. Yeah. So gap exchanges.

It's basically where the picture changes post-snap for linemen. So the defensive line exchange gaps immediately after the snap. So if you have a three technique, he's going to slant inside across your face. to the A gap if you're the guard and then the nose tackle is going to come around him or a linebacker is going to come around him, which I think is like a scrape exchange is called. And so it's basically like crisscrosses, you know, like cross, not a cross dogs, that's linebackers, but it's that similar concept where guys just are basically crisscrossing across your face. And a lot of the times you see guys lunge and try to chase that.

And it gets guys just out leveraged and off balance and on the ground. and you see that quite a bit. So for Hayes to have that really physical kind of rugged playing style and then to be able to handle that and be patient and let it happen and then just move on to the next most dangerous man, I felt like I saw that a lot with him. And I just don't see that a whole lot. So that really kind of like, you know,

left an impression for me on him. And, you know, he didn't test super well. I don't think he's the best athlete, you know, doesn't have the greatest foot quickness. but I think he plays faster than that would suggest. And I see a guy who, you know, I have a third round or I have like a late, second, early third round grade on him, which is probably going to be higher than most. Not a super high ceiling, but I see a guy who could be a solid starter.

He reminds me as a pro, not as a prospect, but as a pro is of like Dalton Reisner. You know, left guard guy, really good puller, you know, pretty good run blocker. It fits more in like a downhill run scheme, but could do a little bit of everything. And just a smart player who, the length thing was a bonus. I thought he had pretty good length, but man, 35 inch arms, that doesn't hurt anything. I think he's a little too reliant on his length sometimes, you know, doesn't always bring his feet into blocks and tries to reach out and touch guys and it can kind of get him, you know, top heavy.

You know, he kind of has an upright playing style. There's some knocks there. He's not perfect. but he's one of those guys in that if you're looking in the third round or something, I think he has good value there. That would be one for tackles. I kind of like Rashid Walker. You know, I'm intrigued by Walker a little bit.

I mean, Tyler Smith is another one that I would love to talk to you guys with. That's my next question. So yeah, we'll talk about him in a second. Okay, yeah, yeah. I really want to talk about him. But Rashid Walker is kind of similar grade to me as Tyler Smith, where more like I see him both as like third rounders, you know, maybe Rashid a little bit later. But Rashid's tape is very up and down.

I'll just say that, you know, right off the bat. His technique needs a lot of work. I think he's overly relying on the two-hand strike. He tries to two-hand guys too much and he just misses and swings open too often. But man, it's like he's the more you watch him when it connects, it's pretty special in terms of, I think, his natural power and his ability to anchor. I mean, he has a really natural ability to anchor and sort of just, you know, cut grass with the insteps of his feet and generate force through the ground and brace. And I think like that's something you could work with. So if you're going to take a shot on a guy in

the mid rounds, a guy with some heavy hands like that, he needs to be reeled in a little bit, refined, polished up, that kind of stuff. But man, I think there's something there that you could work with more so than a guy like Petit Friere, who to me, you know, not only has similar technique concerns, but I don't see the level of play strength and anchoring and power that I do with Rashid. So that's kind of what separates those two for me. You know, Petit Fereer maybe a little bit lighter on his feet. But yeah, I just, I really like, I like Walker is a guy who you can maybe develop as a potential starter backup, you know, in that third round range of tackle. So, and then Cam Juergens, I have to mention his name because he was a guy that I really liked,

you know, Dane, you kind of put me on to him. And I watched him before the combine and put my report in on him. And then for him to come in, you know, what, 13 pounds heavier than his playing weight, longer arms than I thought. I wish you would have done the whole combine. But either way, you know, the 40 kind of solidified some of the stuff you see on tape. I think his athletic ability is really special, his ability to climb and get to the second and third level.

levels is awesome and his competitive toughness is outstanding. So I think there's something there is like a high-end developmental guy at center, probably a center only. So that kind of, you know, diminishes that, you know, positional versatility. But he's a guy that I would probably throw in there as my center. That makes sense. I mean, Cam Juergens didn't play a snap at center in his life until three years ago. So another guy who young in football years, high school tight end, still developing. I agree 100%. Last question, you've been more than generous with your time, so we appreciate it. Two guys I want to talk about that I struggle with, and for different reasons. First one, Tyler Smith out of Tulsa, you mentioned him to tackle. A guy that has the traits,

the raw traits you want to develop, the frame, the length, the athleticism, I mean, the starting points for a guy that you want to build up. But I think it's important to talk about what's the value with Tyler Smith. If you're drafting him first round, is that too early? What's the appropriate value for a guy that just needs an overhaul in terms of fundamentals? And then the second guy that I struggle with, Kelland Deach from Arizona State. And really, if his arms were three inches longer, we'd be talking about him as a, what, a lock second round pick.

I mean, it's just the lack of arm length. He's, what, at 32 and a quarter? And that's, that's a death sentence for a lot of, a lot of tackles. you see it on tape. It's not just, you know, we're not just talking about measurements here. So those two guys, you know, Tyler Smith, you know, what's the appropriate value for a guy like that that just needs so much work, knowing what his traits are? And then Kellyn D.E. who has a lot of ability, but is he going to be able to overcome that length, the length concerns at the next level? Yeah. Yeah. So Tyler Smith, man, I mean, you know, I feel like I really

like this player and I have a third round grade on him. And I feel like that might be a little high and part of me feels that way, but then, you know, I see him having maybe like late first, second round potential. I just don't see that. And it's because I feel like the difference, it's so stark between what you're, what you have there physically and then what you have there technically. You know, physical traits and the aggressive nature, I love with him. If you're building an NFL guard, you know, on paper, he is the guy, right? High weight, length, ace the combine, you know, he's powerful and he's nasty. It's like, okay, all that stuff I love.

But then, I mean, his technique, man, needs a lot of work. I think, you know, the hand carriage thing is just glaring on tape when you watch him. He's standing straight up out of his stance. His hands are down by his, you know, his waist even lower because his arms are so long. And he's just wrapping guys, you know, and just like bear hugging him. I mean, you know, when he can work his hands inside, his grip strength is very good. and the reps over, but so often he's just so wild with his hands and his pad level. And he kind of, you know, has some technical stuff with his footwork as well coming out of his

stance. There's just a lot there that needs to be cleaned up. And obviously we saw that last year on tape. He was a penalty machine. And that's, you know, at Tulsa. So I think he needs a total reconfiguration kind of, you know, from the ground up. That's probably more like a fourth, fifth round guy, but I think the traits and the demeanor are so alluring that I'd be willing to, you know, I value him in that third round range. So I like him, but I just don't know how you could take him before that. I just, I just don't understand. The technique is so, I mean, here's my problem with it. It's not just a technique. It's there's a level of laziness there. And I'm saying this, and I've got a good grade on them, but everything you say, like all you have to do

is slide your feet and make an attempt. And there's too many times he will not make an attempt to do things the right way. Slide to feet, hand placement, grit, sustained, you know, sustain, strain, try to find your way back into the second level, which is the, you know, which is the second phase. The first phase is getting there. The second phase is sustained. Third phase is finished. His second phase is just too, it's just too erratic. And I love the potential, but you can't just grab, default to grab. You just can't do that because if you think you're called, if you think you have a lot of penalty, college, they don't even call most of the penalties that should be called. And that's what really concerns me is 11 holding penalties, I think it was. I mean, and most of them, you got 12. I mean,

most of them were, they were avoidable with a little bit of footwork and a little bit of try. And unfortunately, I think he will default to a hold. And that's a big concern to me. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and I wonder because Chris Paul on the other side, his technique looks totally different. Obviously, he's not the same guy physically, but so it's, you know, I don't know if it's necessarily we could blame it on coaching either. You can't, you can't, yeah, exactly. Like there's no coach who says, listen, if you're getting beat across your face a little bit, just grab them and hold them as much as you can.

Said no coach ever. So, and you're right, Chris Paul does, and Chris Paul does not have the physical gifts that Tyler Smith has, but he has technically more sound. So that immediately raised. I'm glad you brought that up because that immediately, my first question is, does he take coaching? Like, does he internalize coaching? Yeah, I think that's a fair question.

Because that dude is talented now. No doubt. Don't do not get it twisted on this podcast. I think Dana and I both think that he has tremendous upside. And you do too, tremendous upside and talent. But as we talked about the outset, things aren't automatically corrected on the next level. They don't magically get corrected. And he's one of the youngest players in the class, which helps.

You know, it's like, okay, this is a very young guy. He's not even 21 yet. So, you know, that kind of helps him a little bit too. And he didn't move to the offensive line until his junior year in high school. This is another guy who young in football years in terms of the offensive line. He was a defensive line in most of his life. So there's just, there's a level of transition there for him that he's still really playing catch up with. Yep. Yep. And then Deish, you know, talking about him, you know, I saw a lot of what happened at the combine with him testing like in the lead athlete on film. You know, I saw more, you know, maybe very good, maybe not necessarily elite. You know, I thought he was a good smooth mover, though. I mean, you know, the quickness, the body control and the recovery balance to stay attached to blocks was nice. You know, a smooth mover on his climbs up to the second level, pulling, leading. You could see an athletic guy.

doubt. But not only is the length an issue on tape, you know, guys, longer defenders getting inside of him, establishing that first meaningful contact and just delaying his ability to gain control of blocks certainly was on tape. But then he also has that upkick thing out of his past set, out of his stance in his past set that like kind of forces his hips to open early. It's kind of the same thing that like Colton Miller had, Jason Spriggs, other guys. That's going to have to get cleaned up. Sometimes it does. Sometimes it doesn't. And that kind of diminishes his athletic ability somewhat, I think, in pass protection. And then, like, the power is below average, you know, just on contact.

He's more of like a positional guy, you know, positional leverage is how he's going to win as a run blocker more so than generating displacement, I think. Maybe you saw a little of that, not a lot. So definitely like a zone tackle, maybe guard. I don't know, because of the length. But, yeah, I mean, he only has 16 starts, I think. It left tackle, right, in that scheme. so he's, you know, fairly inexperienced. There's probably room to improve there as well.

It's just, yeah, like you mentioned, man, the, the arm length thing is, you know, I'm not a huge stickler on arm length, but for tackle, you know, I'd at least like to see 33. You know, I mean, below 32, there's just, I mean, Braden Smith has below 33, the Colts, right tackle, but aside from him, I don't know that there's another starter in the league with below 33-inch arms at tackle. there might be one more, but I know Braden is one. And he gets a lot of protection in that scheme and past protection.

He's not on an island very often. And he gets kind of knocked back a little bit too much at the point of attack, I think, when he is because guys just are able to touch him before he's able to get them. So, yeah, and I don't see him nearly as, like, strong and powerful as Braden Smith was. So I kind of have more of like a fourth round range grade on him. my for all those reasons. But I do see the appeal as well. Like I see more of like probably a high quality swing tackle. You know, that's probably what he's going to be to me. But I don't know, maybe there's more. Maybe he can be an anomaly. You know, I don't know. I want to say it's crazy.

It'll be really interesting to track not only where he's drafted, but then, you know, his career. Where does he go with the exact scheme they run? And does he get playing time? It really will be interesting with him. Okay, Brandon, this was, this was awesome, just as we knew it would be. Thank you again for your time. Everyone go check out, trench warfare, follow Brandon on Twitter. What's at? What, at Brandon Thorne NFL, right? Is that, that's it? Okay. So, yeah, make sure you're checking out. And you're doing all your stuff at Bleacher Report, all your e-vals and stuff. So, you know, make sure everyone's checking that out. That's going to do it for us this week. There's a ton going on in free agency, so make sure you're staying tuned into the feed with Robert and the crew.

Lance and I will be back next week, and we'll talk to you then. This was the Athletic Football Show.