The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - 2022 top 10 mock draft with The Athletic NFL staff

Episode Date: April 27, 2022

Robert Mays teams up with The Athletic’s NFL beat writers for a top 10 mock draft. Will Travon Walker go No. 1? How will the Jets and Giants use their two picks? Will the Panthers take a QB? Tune in to hear Greg Auman, Chris Burke, Aaron Reiss, Connor Hughes, Dan Duggan, Joe Person, Josh Kendall and Michael-Shawn Dugar break it all down. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. Today is Wednesday, April 27th. I'm Robert Mays. Really fun show for you guys today. We're going to have a mock draft on the athletic football show today. We're going to have our athletic writers that cover these teams run through these picks in the top 10. And the reason I love doing this is because I think it's a great way to tap into people who are experts in the way that these teams.

teams operate in the way that they think, in the ways that they think about their roster and think about themselves, their timeline, their trajectory, everything about their mindset heading into the draft. So I want to talk about the individual picks that some of these teams make as part of this exercise. But I also wanted to talk about just these teams in general, where they're at as we head into the draft. We're talking about tomorrow being the first round. So I love doing this at this stage of the calendar. Wanted to give you guys a heads up that today on the athletic, we also had a 32 pick first round mock draft with all of the writers from the athletic. There are slight differences between them, and that's why we were okay doing both of them.

Theirs had trades. I did not want to have trades in ours just because I really wanted to dig into the teams that own these picks in the top 10 and where their thinking is. So I wanted to do the Panthers, even though they traded out in the writer mock draft. I wanted to talk about the Texans only once. So just a few things that keep in mind. I highly encourage you guys. to go check out our beatwriter mock draft on the athletic.

If you do not have a subscription, it's theathletic.com slash football show. You guys can go check that out today on top of all of the great draft coverage that we have. While we're doing announcements, just want to remind you guys, tomorrow 8 p.m. Eastern, YouTube, Twitter, the athletic football show will be live here in Las Vegas where I am right now. Me, Dane, and Nate are going to break down every pick of the first round along with visit from Deante Lee, Lindsay Jones, Dan Duggan, our Giants writer. Really, really excited about our show. Really hope you guys come check it out with us.

We will not be tipping any picks. We're going to be responding to the TV in the same way that you guys are. So it would be a nice way for you guys to watch the draft. Get some context from us. I think it'll be a really fun time. Really, really looking forward to it. I think it's going to be a cool night. So please come join us.

For now, though, let's get to our mock draft. Let's kick it off with the Jaguars at number one. All right. Let's get this thing going. Start with the number one. pick here and here to make the Jaguar's selection is actually our Bucks writer at the athletic. Greg, I'm like. Greg, thank you very much for doing this. Moonlighting as our Jaguars expert here for a little bit.

It's the same state. I feel very comfortable. It's not a big state at all. Jacksonville and Tampa are not even almost close to one another. My sister's in St. Augustine. I'm practically there. All right. So walk me through this here. is the Jaguars pick at number one and why? I'm still, there's been a lot of flux in the last week and a lot of people bored with saying the same names and trying to change things up.

I'm still sticking with Aidan Hutchinson. I think he's the guy. I think he's the top pick on Thursday night. Why do you say that? I mean, all the noise, you know, I think that the rumors lately have been that the GM Trump Alki loves Trayvon Walker, which Trayvon Walker is a GM type pick. if you look at the physical profile and the stature and the length and the explosion, any sort of evaluator is going to look at that and be like, oh, yeah, give me that guy,

give me the toolsy guy. Apparently, Doug Peterson wants one of the tackles, which he is an offensive coach who is trying to build up his quarterback. He's had some success with very good offensive lines in the past. And Aidan Hutchinson still viewed as, I guess let's frame it as the safe pick. So why do you land on option three of those guys at number one? I think, honestly, if the, I mean, the Jaguars came out and said they had the top four prospects graded very similarly. And if I were in that position, I would trade down.

I would find somebody who doesn't have them graded similarly and get them to pay more than they should and then be happy to get whoever your third or fourth guy is. So we don't know what to believe with that. But Hutchinson, to me is, again, you hate to say the safe bat because the Jaguars, they need big splash. you know, swing for a home run if you're the Jaguars right now. Try and get the defensive equivalent of Trevor Lawrence. And Hutchinson isn't that. Hutchinson is probably the B-plus option. You know, like you know you're not going to get 20-sack guy.

You're not going to have a break the bank off the charts, defensive rookie the year every, you know, right out of the gate. But I do think he's the safe one. He's the one that's least likely to get you fired because he has two sacks and is a non-factor in your season. You look back at their history, and I would say this is an argument for them taking a player like that. There is only one player,

if you look at the first and second rounds, from, say, 2014 through 2018. So guys that would be on their second contracts, but guys reasonably you could expect to still be on the roster. Yeah. Guys drafted in 2014, that's a long way up. But there are still plenty of players that were drafted in 2014 that are on the teams that they drafted them right now.

Aaron Donald comes to mind, players like that. There is not a single guy outside of Cam Robinson that the Jags drafted in the first and second rounds from 2014 to 2018 that is currently on their roster, now that Miles Jack is not on the team anymore. That's wild. That is a recipe for disaster. That's how you get bad and stay bad.

So now, I think if a guy is a B plus and he's somebody that plays pretty well and when it comes time to think about a second contract, we can give him a market-level deal if he wants to stay in Jacksonville. That's plenty good. This is a team that just needs NFL players who are pretty solid

that stick around and want to be there for a little while. And if Aidan Hutchison is one of those guys, that doesn't sound like the most exciting thing in the world, but it's a vast improvement on how the last decade of Jaguar's football has gone. Yeah, I went up to Jacksonville in 17. when they had that great out of nowhere success, you know, basically had a lead in the a FC championship game where they were close to a Super Bowl.

And it was at the time, it seemed like one of those young defenses were like, wow, this is going to be some really sustained success that they keep this group together. And they did the exact opposite. They blew everything up. And Ramsey was gone. And now, I mean, Jack was the last guy to leave, basically. You know, Yonick was gone. And everybody they had the high draft fix.

I mean, Yonick's been on like 14 since then. But no, there's no continuity. There's no foundational players there. I mean, Trevor Lawrence, if you're a meaningful player and you've been there longer than Trevor Lawrence now, it's like you're counting your days almost. And like you said, they, I feel like they were a little bit guilty of keeping okay players and paying them like great players. Like we, some of the reason we don't think of them taking a tackle right now is it's like, well, Cam Robinson has gotten the franchise tag two years in a row. And it's like, that's about the nicest thing. can say about Cam Robinson is that the team has trusted him with whatever it is,

$32, $333 million in the last two years. The right tackle, Juan Taylor, isn't anybody you'd be that excited about. So they could add a tackle. It's just they have, to me, it's like if you're adding a third tackle, you're adding a third end, the third end allows you to still get something from those other two. Where in the tackle, now you've got to either move one of those guys inside or move on and just flip one of them for a mid-round pick or something like that. So I get what you're saying.

And they're trying to get that initial foundation, get that 17 team again, where if they can make the playoffs and be a wild card at 10 and 7 this year and build from that, that's where you now have a supporting castor on Trevor. That gives them a starting point that they thought they had five years ago, and you just have to try and sustain this time around. This is the problem where you just have all of these regimes that are misaligned to some degree, right? The fact that Balgie is there and that he started building this team last year and now you have some of that work that's been done, but now you have a new coaching staff in there and that coaching staff is going to have views on the way that they want to build the team and surround Trevor Lawrence, what type of players they want. I mean, if you look at just the defensive staff that they have there now and you have a former Baltimore assistant and Joe Collin was the defensive coordinator last year, now you have Mike Caldwell come in who is.

the Todd Bowles disciple. You know that defense extremely well during your time covering the Bucson. Dot Bowles is now the head coach of the Buccaneers. That system, even though it's pretty blitz-heavy, is still very different than what Baltimore like to do during their time and what the Jags did last. It's just so many things where it's like every year, every two years when you're making these little shifts, it doesn't seem like the most important thing in the world, but you're always halfway down the road with a version of a team.

and then when you make these abrupt transitions to something else, you have this half-made team that no longer aligns with the way that you're trying to do things now. And that's again how it feels down there. And I think that's why it's difficult to pin down what they should do or what they will do or what their thought process is in this moment just because we don't know. We don't know what the Jaguars are. And that has been a consistently moving target for so long. And that breeds consistent ineptitude.

Yeah. And to have to have three coaches and three coaches. three seasons is asking for just spare parts and square pegs and guys that you don't even remember which scheme they were brought in for, but you know it isn't the current one. So even if you have somebody who's a second round pick, you look at Tyson Campbell and how much he played last year, and you don't know if that's a good thing or not. Is he somebody who's likely to play the same amount? Or what will the new coaching staff think of him? Is that a need position all of a sudden? I mean, they brought in Darius Williams. Obviously, they have, uh, Shigua Griffin there. They have,

there's talent at positions, but we don't know what this new staff thinks at so many positions. It makes them fun for the draft because they have 12 picks and whatever they decide to trade a way to add to that. But it's really hard to project just because you don't know what they like about themselves.

And that's why I think it's very understandable to land on a guy that just double off the wall. Just whack one off the green monster here, let it fall into the left field his glove, walk into second base, and you figure out where you go from there. So I completely get that as a strategy, as a mindset, because this team, at this point, they just need some players. That's all it is.

It's not the sexiest approach to the draft for them. Walker would be like the really bold, again, people say, could he be Alden Smith? Could he be the guy who was just somehow massively underutilized at Georgia? And, I mean, that's a great defense, that half of the draft picks we're talking about, I think, are Georgia defensive players, at least in the first. 50 picks, it seems. But his production doesn't match up with the number one pick. And it's hard to just go completely tools and go completely measurables and look at somebody else that's done more under similar circumstances. Greg, really appreciate the time, sir.

As always, it's great to chat with you. We'll catch up down the road. Thanks again. All right. It's time for the number two pick. The Detroit Lions are on the clock here to chat through the Lions thought process. what they might do at number two is our Lions writer at the athletic Chris Burke. Chris, how are you doing?

Doing all right. I'll do my best here. I don't know. No promises that I can nail down their thought process, but I'll try. So let's do this. So why don't, obviously Aiden Hutchison went number one. We just chatted with Greg. Who are the Lions picking at number two in this scenario?

In this scenario, I have them picking Kavon Tibado. And the choice was Tibido or Trayvon Walker, I think, as people probably would expect. I are trying to trade out or beat writer mock. I tried to trade out of two and didn't have any luck. So, um, so I, Tibido is, I think the likeliest pick there. I, you know, I don't know that I can go to 100%, but that's who I have them picking. All right.

So real quick before we dig into that. If Iki Aquano or Trayvon Walker go number one, do the lions just run the Aiden Hutchinson card up? Does Dan Campbell jump into the Bellagio fountain and swim his way to the stage and just announce it himself? I know he's not here and that's not how the draft works. But that's how I'm picturing it in my mind. I think Dan Campbell would love to do that. And I think this is going to be a really interesting test for how, you know,

they keep talking about their collaborative process in-house and how everyone has a voice. Because I think Brad Holmes would pick Kvon-Tibodeau. And I think Dan Campbell probably would like. like Aiden Hutchinson and then Aaron Glenn, I don't know. I don't know which way he would go. But I think this will be a good test for sort of how their collaborative process works and what happens if the room is split? Because I think last year they had their little like bucket of guys, a couple receivers in Sewell. The receivers went. So Sewell was there. It was easy. Nice and tidy for them. That scenario, you're pitching. I think there'd be some interesting

conversations and probably, I mean, they're sure there have been some interesting conversations between Thibodeau and Hutchinson. Okay. So that's fascinating to me. Why do you think that the Holmes side of this, the Holmes faction, would prefer Tibado in that scenario? I think some of it is just like, Tibido's a guy. You look back, like even back to when Holmes with the Rams, like that's a guy that's been on his radar for two, three years now. And I think he loves the, I think he loves the possibility of what Cavon, Tibido. could be as a pass rusher especially, but just in terms of what he can do,

everything he can do on the outside. I think he likes the upside, he likes the potential. And in this class where, you know, there isn't an obvious superstar, he's the guy that stands out for Brad Holmes as the most likely to be a superstar, just sort of based on where he's at right now

and what the traits are. So I think that's the guy he probably likes the best from just a pure upside potential, upside standpoint. And with Campbell potentially liking Hutchinson, that feels like a mindset thing, a culture thing, and probably the way that coaches view this, can I use them now? Is that my job going to be easy? And that's how the staff often thinks of players.

Are those the factors that would land Hutchinson potentially on the coaching staff campside of this? Yeah, I think so. I mean, and again, I'm always sort of cautious saying this stuff because I don't want it to sound like they've decided. Cave on Tibido is like some malcontent who's going to get in there and just blow up the whole thing, you know, I feel like that's been sort of how it sounded sometime. I don't want to frame it like that. Yeah. I think that based on everything I've heard about Cavon Tibido is that he has a personality.

Yeah. Like he has a certain way about him that some people just don't like. Like that's as simple as it gets. He rubs people the wrong way sometimes. And that happens. You know, there are people in the world that's like, I just don't like that guy. Like, I think that guy's kind of an asshole. And that happens.

That's okay. That doesn't make you some terrible person. It doesn't make you a bad presence in the building. But by all accounts, Aidan Hutchinson is this nose to the grindstone. All I care about is football all the time that I eat nails. And like, this is how I am as a person. I don't know. I would want to hang out with that guy.

But if you're a coaching staff trying to create a certain feeling in your building, spending the number two overall pick on somebody that doesn't have a personality that can rub some people the wrong way and fits into a more traditional box in terms of this is what football culture looks like. I can understand wanting to go that direction if you're at Dan Campbell, even if I'm personally not offended by what I've heard about Kavon Thimino. Right. Yeah, absolutely. I 100% agree. And I think so you're right. I think that there is some of just like that culture thing that they keep talking about. We want to make, especially early, still early on in this process, they're near two. It's their second draft class. Sewell is a guy who

help them change this direction last year and get it on the right track. And I think that they're very cautious about sort of upsetting the cart too early. I think this, this isn't a staff that's going to shy away from, you know, quote unquote personalities, but I think that they want to make sure they get that foundation all the way laid down. So I think from that standpoint, Hutchinson would fit, but also that other stuff, the on field stuff, the important stuff. They've talked about wanting to play more, you know, four-man fronts and they want to be heavier up front. and want to be better against the run. And so you keep coming back to Hutchinson and to Trayvon Walker, frankly, for those things.

Because those guys can play for you early. They can move inside if you want them to move inside and just do a lot more stuff early on in your base defense, I think, that would help you be competitive. And so I think that that probably matters too for the coaching staff. Everyone, everyone in this field and in this space is my. the pass rusher to the lions at number two, whatever pass rusher it happens to be. Is there any scenario

where if they do trade out or they go a different direction, it's a different position? Because this is not a team that's filled in specific needs at this point of the building process. There are a lot of things on the board. And I look at this roster

and even though they spent the third overall pick on Jeff Akuta a couple years ago and they had some younger corners that were a little bit surprising last year in roles that they were thrust into. this team doesn't have any long-term proven starters at cornerback. They don't have a future plan on the outside of receiver with DJ Chark on a one-year deal.

What other needs are in the conversation, either if they trade down or early in this draft, because they also have the 34th pick? Yeah. I mean, I think there would be a point if they were to trade back from two where they have Equanu as their top guy and would just say, all right, well, that's it. He's our top guy. Let's take him. We'll figure it out.

Maybe he'll play guard. But I think cornerback is the one, like you mentioned, that keeps jumping out. And I know there are people in that building who love Gardner and Stingley to the point where we've sort of heard in the last few days that if, you know, if Stingley starts to fall because of the injury or whatever, lions might think about jumping up and going and getting him and doubling up on their first round picks. Like that's the type of, they really like those guys. And so if you're trading back from two to six or seven and there's a little bit of a run on the edge guys,

I think that's a possibility. If one of those guys, I don't think either one of those guys is going to get into the late teens or the 20s, but for whatever reason it happens, I think they'd consider moving up and trying to knock, nail one down because they, they don't have really anything said. Even Amaniore or Worrier was really good last year. but if you're a playoff team, he's probably a number two, and maybe a number two that you're pushing in camp. He's not your number one guy. And so they still need that number one guy.

And I think they believe either Gardner or Stingley could be that for them in the future. But I don't know, I don't think they have them above the edge rushers on their board, you know, two days out from the draft. It's one of those push and pull things when you're thinking about how you put a team together and the timeline and how you think about positional needs and where things want to go three years from now. So you think about Oro Wurier and that even like Jerry Jacobs last year, there were moments where I was like, oh, that guy, he's got some, he's got something to him. But it's like, he's got something to him for as an undrafted free agent on the Lions team that has

no players. And so you can't let those little flashes from these guys that haven't been as big of investments precludes you from taking guys that you think are potential stars at those positions because eventually you're going to need more than, oh, that guy's got something to him if you want to be competing with the Packers in the NFC North. And that's just, it's difficult. when you're at this stage of the process to kind of keep that long view in mind sometimes, especially for fans. I know that I would be sucked into that. Yeah, I mean, I think you're absolutely right.

And I think the other thing that fans, at least here in, you know, Detroit area have gotten sucked into is that, well, we took A.J. Parker and he played in the slot for us. He was an undrafted guy. And we took Jerry Jacobs. And before he blew out his knee at the end of the year, it looked pretty good as an outside guy. So maybe this coaching staff, we don't need to spend premium picks.

on a cornerback because we can develop them. It's impossible to do that to the level that you need to do it. You know, like eventually you have to have those dudes. Like you have, you just have to do it. Especially like Devante Adams at least is out of this division now for them. But you know, they're, you're going to have to have guys that you can just put out on an island and trust them out there.

And they have a pretty limited stockpile of those bodies at cornerback and at safety and at lineback or all these spots. So to get back to your other point, you kind of figure out where this class lines up with their needs, but they have a ton of needs. I think you could justify just about anything at these picks and really have it make sense for them. Yeah. And I think that's the important thing. It's what I've had to remind myself of over the course of this process when it comes to Detroit is that you look at the pressure rates.

And I think they were 31st in the league last year. I think Atlanta was the only team that pressure the quarterback less. And there was some injuries that led to that. right aquamus is most of the season treflowers is banged up but treflowers is gone you know this is the team starting over in so many different ways they need that position but they need a lot of things so i think edge rusher makes sense with where they're picking and positional value and all of that but i think it's important to kind of zoom out when it comes to the lions and just remind ourselves this is about more than one position this is about a team that is firmly still in its rebuilding mode even if we're in year two of

this process and i guess the last thing thing. 32. I know we're talking about the top 10. How realistic do you think a quarterback at 32 is in this draft for the Lions? I think it's possible. I still think the board's going to fall more for them to go defense again. I think they really like to load up there and it looks like linebacker safety is going to be that's going to be kind of a sweet spot for either. They have 32 and 34. You know, I don't know that like if Willis is there at 32, I think you think about it. If Ritter's there at 32, I think you think about it. I've seen some mocks lately with Howl to them at 32.

And I, they like Sam Howell a lot, but I think that's more of like a 66 pick for them than a 32 pick. So I guess we'll see. I don't think it's going to happen there unless probably just Willis, but maybe Ritter slides and is available. before them there because I don't think it lines up with sort of what their timeline is. And I think it would also make things complicated next year, which is when they've sort of set this up to make a run at a quarterback. It would make things a lot more complicated to take a first round quarterback this year. I totally agree.

Trust your time one here. Trust what this has been. You're going to be bad. As optimistic as you want to be this year, you still don't have any players for the most part. you're very likely going to win six games, even if this thing goes well. You're going to be in range to likely get a top five pick in a world where C.J. Stroud and Bryce Young are going to be in this draft, are going to be quarterbacks.

Just don't be tempted. Just take a defensive player, understand you've got a million needs all over the roster, and you figure out the quarterback next year. I think them in Atlanta, in my opinion, are in a very similar boat when it comes to that. But we will see what happens. Chris Burke, thank you very much for the time, sir. really, really appreciate it. Always great to chat with you.

Sure thing. All right. It's time now for the third overall pick. The Houston Texans are on the clock. Here to discuss what the Texans might do is, how do I describe you? You were the Texans writer at the Athletic. Now you're an editor at the Athletic.

You are the person at the Athletic who knows the most about the Texans, Aaron Reese, whether you like it or not. Yeah, that's a sad distinction. I am. That's fine. I did the Texans for four seasons. and shifted off it recently.

I worked pretty closely with Nate and Deontanio doing stuff with the draft, which has been really great. But still have been keeping a little of an eye this offseason on what the Texans were doing. So I feel informed enough to make this pick. All right. So what are the Texans going to do with three here for our purposes? I have them picking Evan Neal.

I think you can talk yourself into maybe taking a corner early just because of the kind of the drop-off after that first tier of guys and Levy Smith being a defensive line and head coach. But I just think about having watched this team the past two years and how miserable the running game has been for two years in a row. They've ranked last and rushing DVOA. And, you know,

they ranked first in league and three and out rate last season. Like, they just, they need to be able to kind of stay ahead of the chains and this have some level of consistency in offense. And I think that to the point that it was, it's been so bad that I think it really has bled over into everything for this team. You look at

this, their defensive performances fell off in the second half of last year. And so I like Neil because I think that, you know, he obviously has some positional versatility. He's played guard. He's played both tackle spots. I don't know kind of what they want to do besides keep Laramie Tunzel there now for seemingly private season and next after restructure his contract. Everything else is basically in flux about the line. So that is why Neil makes sense to me kind of, you can plug him in as a starter somewhere right away. And regardless of whether you want to keep Titus Howard on the fifth-year option in 2023, whether this is Titus Howard's last season, whatever your plans are, I think that.

there's a place for Everneal and there's a way for him to add value. Obviously, Iki Aquano is kind of someone that people have talked about too, but I feel like mostly when people talk about him or the selling point for him is the idea that he can really be a guy who's really mobile and playing kind of that outside of run game and stuff. I'm not sure that's what the Texans are going to do. I mean, they have a new offensive coordinator in Cup Hamilton, but they've mostly run it back with pretty much the same offensive line, which is somewhat suspect given the results I just talked about.

But so given that, you know, I'm not sure that if they didn't do any of that last year that they're going to suddenly shift to this sort of running game. And so if you're not going to use that sort of running game to maximize a quantum, then I would probably just take the more, you know, refined guy, I guess, and Neil. Yeah, obviously, you know, Evan Neal physically checks every single box you want him to. And the fact that he's got the frame, the athleticism, when you watch him super explosive. Really the only question, I think is the physicality in the run game and the fact that he leans on people every so often. But when we had Brandon Thorne on this show earlier this month. One of my first questions is, why isn't Evan Neal just a no-brainer,

the number one guy, the number one tackle in this class? And we talk through that. And there are reasons that people love Aquano and the physicality is a big part of that. But I completely understand looking at the tackle prospects available in this class and saying that I'm going to roll the dice on a guy like Evan Neal, who's just a little bit more refined as a pass blocker. And still, again, checks every box physically you could want. So you mentioned Corner as another possibility here. I mean, this is a team, anything should be in play. They have no guys that are long-term pieces at virtually any position on the entire roster. And we haven't really seen what Nick Casario is as a drafter, what they want to do in terms of building this team, because everything

are these short-term bets. So walk me through a couple of the other options here, whether it's a corner, a pass rusher. What were the alternatives beyond taking a tackle in this spot? Yeah, I mean, I think the main alternatives are going with a pass rusher if, you know, Tibodeau is, it falls or if they're, the team that ends up really liking Trayvon Walker. We'll see how that goes. But a pass rusher is certainly an option. They had, you know, they were okay. They have some pieces on the defensive line. I would say it's honestly one of the stronger elements of the roster, which is not saying a ton, but like, they had John Bernard who came on second year last year. He had eight stacks. He was pretty solid. They have some good interior players in Lee Collins, so they resigned. And Roy Lopez was a good

fine for them in the sixth round last year. He played a lot as a rookie. But they need someone else kind of on the edge to compliment Granard. And I think Granard is probably best, at best, kind of a number two guy. They need kind of an alpha edge rusher. So certainly picking a edge rusher at the top there is possible. But I just, I kind of think, you know, if you're talking about kind of persistental scarcity, I would bet more on like, go get the top and offensive tackle and then go get an edge rusher in the middle rounds or something like that. And then similarly with, corner, I think that positional scarcity is a reason that it would make some sense to go with the corner at number three is because there's a big drop up after Stingley and Gardner.

And, you know, I'm not to say I'm an expert in Cornerplay, but after reading Deontes' piece about Stingley and Gardner the other week, I would say I probably would go Stingley for them just in terms of the way he plays and what Luffy kind of wants to do if they were going to go with Corner at one of those spots. I know we weren't doing tradeups in this mock on the podcast, but in the beat writer mock that we did the other day. I did trade back up from 13 to 9 against Stingling when he was falling. And I think if the Texans were able to do that, just kind of by moving some day three

picks around, I think that would be a good move for them as well. I'm looking at the Texans cornerback depth chart right now. It's amazing. And it's not, I'm not poking fun. It's not a quality of player thing. It's that every single guy, essentially, is the same type of NFL player when you look at their career trajectory. right stephen nelson is on i think his fourth team since 2015 eric murray has bounced around from a couple

different teams you have desmond king who's bounced around from a couple different teams they just have these guys who are functional NFL players as secondary pieces but they're just plug-in-play guys that are just sifting kind of throughout the league right now it's just so funny how they've built this thing they have an entire roster full of those guys like that is who the texans have on their team right now and that's why everything feels so transitory because it's everything is so in flux and they have all these guys who are kind of moving in and out of this thing and it's why it's difficult to understand who they want to be because they haven't committed to any vision for what they want to be just yet. Right.

You know, it's really hard to think about like who are the players that they should target because we don't really have a history in terms of just like what the physical comes or what those things that they look for. They made six picks last year and no one of them were. until the third round. So I feel like this draft is really instructive in a lot of ways. And like you said, those first round picks, those first two picks they make are going to say a lot about like, what are they prioritizing? What is kind of the vision for the team?

And also just like what are the attributes that Nick Serio targets? I don't really know. No, we haven't seen them do anything yet. Their first two picks were Nico Collins. And I understand, I mean, they made an aggressive move for Nico Collins in last year's draft, which I understand. If that range of the draft, somebody with his physical profile, when you look at some of the other later round, you know, second and third round prospects at that position

that have been successful recently, betting on physical traits at that stage of the draft, I think makes a lot of sense. But that and Davis Mills were the only picks we saw them make. This team hasn't had any draft capital. And now the rebuild really gets started. Now the Nick Casario era. And it's, I mean, it is so funny because it is the Nick Casario era.

because their coaching staff, again, feels like it's temporary. It's not like this regime that's married together and they're going to build this thing together and that's going to be the vision. It feels like a front office-led process. I mean, extend that to the fact that Nick Casario has his headset on during games. It's just so different than other NFL franchises are set up right now that what the front office prioritizes, what they want to be,

what their vision is, is almost more important for this. team than it is for most of the other teams in the NFL because the coaching staff has so much prominence in a lot of other buildings. Yeah, I would say it's absolutely true. I mean, you know, Lovie obviously was an internal promotion from, you know, Cicero up to Cicero put together David Culley's staff. Pepin Hamilton was on that staff too. And then the special team coordinator, Frank Ross, he was worked under Cicero and the scouting

the world of Patriots, I mean, it is very much kind of all a Cicero show. and I think he would like to say that it's a little more collaborative. And I don't know if it's kind of one of these things where Lovie's input in his value at all. I do get thinking maybe has a little more juice than David Cully did. But it certainly is at the end of the day going to be about what Nick Cicario believes in. And I don't, I think they're going to say right now that Lovie Smith is kind of the guy for the long term. But I think it isn't really hard to see that this might be a setup where he's coached in the team for two more years. And then maybe after some more of these picks matriculated and the handle of the roster kind of more of a ready made point to someone else.

Yeah, and that's why it's just really, really difficult to throw some darts at what this team is thinking and what they're going to do because the target is moving. It's just, it's so, so hard. Everything feels like it's kind of sand slipping through your fingers when it comes to the Texans at this point. So I appreciate you trying to help us nail this thing down because it is a squirrelly proposition at this stage of the game. Yeah, I feel like everyone talking about the top five, tough four, whatever, like the team that no one seems to know what they're doing is this year. which feels pretty unbrand. The actual has the years. I'm so out of sorts that I just use

like six different metaphors as I was trying to describe them. So Aaron Reese, thank you very much for the time, my friend. Always great to chat with you. We'll catch up soon. See you.

All right. It is time now for the fourth pick. The New York Jets are on the clock. And here to discuss the Jets plans with the fourth pick and beyond is our Jets writer at the athletic. Connor, thank you very much for doing this, man.

No problem, man. Thanks for me on. I appreciate it. First time we're talking, the combine, right? It's, and it's been a, it's, it's, uh, it's your season. It's your busy season here as Jets Ryder. Super Bowl.

I mean, I'm in this year beyond that. You know, every single year when you're a team that struggles, the draft becomes the most important part of your calendar, but with all the draft capital they have, including four and ten. And we talked about this numerous times on this show in the last couple weeks. This is a potentially transformative draft for this franchise if they get this stuff right to the point where they were taking our podcast audio

and putting it in their, yeah, They didn't take any of my many negative rants, though, that we dropped on the I can't wait pod during the season was 2 and 14 and 4 and 13. But you made it. I was happy about that one. It's a good thing when you have a generally positive vibe. People seem to appreciate that. So let's talk about four.

I mean, obviously the first three picks are off the board. Aidan Hutchinson goes one to the Jags. Kvon Tibado goes two to Detroit. A little bit of a surprise with Evan Neal going off the board number three to Houston. So that leaves the Jets with plenty of options at number four. you going with the fourth overall pick here if you're the New York Jets? Yeah, I'll be honest, man. I was kind of back and forth on this one, but kind of having an idea of what the other beats were going to do is, is why I went with the pick that I did it for. I'll be honest with you, I think when draft night comes, it wouldn't surprise me at all to see this pit,

the pick that I actually go with at 10 being the number four selection. That's kind of the talk all around town right now is that Jermaine Johnson's one of the Jets favorites. But knowing Joe Douglas, knowing his infatuation with offensive linemen, having one offensive line coach tell me that this kid's one of the most talented. prompted prospects he's seen in a while. Icky Aquano is the kid out of NC State, who I am taking with the number four pick, the number four selection. I just think he's the best player available. And Joe Douglas, when we talked to him a little bit before the NFL draft during his pre-draft press conference, he said, look, when you're drafting, you're not necessarily

drafting for today's problems, but also for tomorrow's problems. And by getting Icky in here, it not only gives you insurance in case Mackay Beckton doesn't bounce back like the Jets hope, it doesn't. it not only gives you insurance, in case George Fant deals with injuries again or kind of regresses to the mean, it allows you to go into training camp and say, okay, we've got three offensive tackles that we like a lot.

We're going to play the best too. And then we have an option with the guy who doesn't win. We can either trade him for additional draft capital or we can keep him as insurance. But I think this is just an example of the best player on the board and Joe Douglas taking the best player on the board. So you answered my first question, which is what does this mean for Mackay Beckett? So you just think that it could be a good. an open competition with the three of them

if this ends up happening. Because when you draft the offensive tackle fourth overall, you need that guy to start. If that guy doesn't play, then it's probably not the best use of that draft pick. And with Aquano specifically, he has such physicality to his game that this

idea of letting him play guard early and then move to tackle made sense for other teams. But that doesn't make sense for the Jets. They just spent a lot of money on a guard and they drafted a guard in the first round last year. So that development plan isn't really on the table for them. So now you add another kind of layer of complexity

with Flant being on a pretty sizable second contract for a veteran. You picked the guy sixth overall who's your left tackle, and now you drop the fourth overall pick into the mix, so it gets complicated. But you just think that they might let those guys battle it out for those two spots and then figure it out later. I should say one spot. I should say that Icky is the starter.

I mean, like you said, if you, that here's honestly, like you touched upon why I've literally gone back and forth on this selection over and over and over and over again. Because as easily as I can see them going Icky and then Germain Johnson, I just as simple, like honestly, the way that I think the draft might play out is Jermaine Johnson and Drake London. And the reason why is what you just said is that if Icky's this guy, the Jets say, look, he's a hell of an offensive line, but he's a guard, maybe a tackle. Well, they just gave Lakin Tomlinson an insane contract.

They are in love with Elijah Vera Tucker. And Joe Douglas told us before the draft that he believes he's built arguably the best, if not the best guard combination in the NFL. So in my opinion, if they were to draft Ikey, and again, it goes down to this guy is an offensive tackle. We believe he's an offensive tackle. The moment that he steps foot in the Jets building, he is a better player than George fan ever has been or ever will be.

And he is a better prospect than Mackay Bechtin was. And when you talk about McCoy Bechtin, there is a lot of concerns centered around him. One, he has not been healthy either of his first two years. Two, he has struggled immensely with weight with tipping the scales at over 400 pounds, both as a rookie and last year. you loop into the fact that when he was actually on the field last year before the injury during training camp, he was beat like a drum by Carl Lawson, the point where there were legitimate performance concerns. The Jets sat him down. They said, look, we need more from you.

This is year three. We really need you to step it up. And in their perfect world, he does. If Mackay Bechtin develops into the player that the Jets believe he can develop into, if Mackay Bechtin becomes the player that they thought they drafted two years ago and then you add Icky to the mix, you're not talking about one of the best guard combinations in the NFL. you're talking about one of the best offensive lines in the NFL when you have mackay Beckton on one side, Ikey on one side, Vera Tucker, Tomlinson, and then you've got Connor McGovern in the middle. That is a dominant, ferocious offensive line that can just physically impose their will on teams and allow the running game to get going, the passing game to get going,

and have an impact like the Dallas Cowboys line did for so many of those early years in Dak Prescott's career. So I go back and forth on this because of what you said about is he a guard, is he a tackle, they have needs elsewhere, what would they do? They still look, Joe Douglas has kept in touch with Duke Mani Weather this entire off season with updates and videos on Mackay Beckton. He's told Mackay Beckton's people, we love you, we believe in you, all those kinds of things. So Joe's the many things. He's not not a man of his word. But if they were to draft, Icky, have this two-man competition with Fant and Bechton on the other side. And then Becht wins the job. That's when you're talking about them flipping Mackay Beckton for a draft pick because they're not going to keep Beckton as their third tackle. They wouldn't do that. It's interesting team-building question because you look at George Fant and what do you need out of your right tackle? What do you need out of that second guy? You really need somebody who's sturdy. You need somebody who's not a weak link.

And I think George Fant was that for the Jets last year. But what does that give you in terms of a ceiling? George Fant's going to be 30 here in a few weeks. George Fant has a significantly lower ceiling than a tackle combination of Mackay-Bectin and Ikea Kwan if that thing goes well. He has a million dollars in dead money left on his deal. George Fant probably shouldn't prevent you from drafting Ikea Kuanu if you think he is a pro-bow, all-pro level tackle five years down the road. But again, when you're looking just at needs and immediate help and where you can get better on the roster and what your urgency is and your timeline as a franchise, those are all the considerations that you have to put into play here. But if they draft Aquano, he gets that right tackle job.

I'm telling you, on August 16th, there are plenty of teams that could use a starting level right tackle and $11 million or whatever George Fants base salary is. 9.75. I mean, he would have a market, I would have to assume. So there are a lot of dominoes that would have to fall if that pick is made. But I think that's what makes it a fascinating conversation. Yeah, look, honestly, man, like I wrote a story on Tuesday for the athletic and on it was one of the questions. I was asked and one of the questions that was answered was what's the worst case scenario for the Jets in this draft? You know, what is the worst case scenario? And when you're coming off a two and 14 season two years ago,

and then you were four and 13 last year, when you've won six games in a two season stretch, you're not winning six games over two years because you are one or two pieces away. You need some legitimate wholesale changes. And aside from some legitimate wholesale changes, you really do need a lot. You need playmakers. You need talent. You need depth. Like you don't, you need the playmakers. You need the start.

You need depth. You need everything. And the only way that Joe Douglas, excuse me, can screw up this draft. And it sounds like such a cop-out answer, but it really is the truth. It's that he just drafts the wrong players in terms of players who can't play. He goes out there and drafts a tackle at four and a defensive end at 10. And then he comes back with a corner and a safety in the second round. Or he loops around with.

with a receiver and a pass rush or a cornerback and a safety. I mean, there's really, you can make the argument that the Jets can infuse their roster with at least 10 different positions to improve this team. So as long as Douglas goes out there and gets starters with those first four picks and with those first four picks, one or two of them is maybe a legitimate game changer, that's a hell of a draft. It doesn't matter the positions because the Jets are in a position where they need good players. And as long as Joe Douglas goes out there and gets good players,

it really does not matter what position they play as much as it matters that they can play. He can't have another draft like 2020. He can't have drafts like the Jets had 2012 through 2020 where you're coming out with maybe one player. That's how you get into this dysfunctional, talentless, playoffless rut that the Jets have been in for the last 11 years. It's not one man's mistake. Is that one draft's mistake? It's year after year after year of ineptitude. So Jets really can go best player on their board.

If they want to go corner with Soss, Gardner, if they want to go pastrush, with Johnson, if they want to go icky as we said, if they want to go kneel if he slides. There are so many different Garrett Wilson. It really does not matter what direction they go as long as the player they pick can play. If they can do that, it's a win for Joe Douglas and the Jets. So we'll talk about some big picture stuff when we chat with you at the 10th pick. But the last thing I wanted to ask you with this specific one, what is the argument against taking Jermaine Johnson at 4 if they do really love him?

That's the thing is that there isn't one. That's the thing, is that people are so up. up in arms. And I've seen it on Twitter because I put it out there yesterday. I was like, look, I've heard from multiple people that the Jets prefer Jermaine Johnson over Kavon Tibado and that Jermaine Johnson is very, very, very, very much in play at four. That one of the reasons why people don't think he's going to get to 10 is because the Jets are going to take him in four. And if he doesn't go to four, the giants with both of their picks and the Falcons and the Seahawks are all in contention to take him as well.

So if the Jets love this kid and they believe that he is the best pass rusher in the draft, who the hell cares if the public perception is that Kvon's better? Who the hell cares if the public perception is like sauce gardener is better? If the Jets scouted this guy and they believe that this guy is a 10 to 12 to 13 sack annually player, a player is going to get that many sacks every single year. No one's going to give two you know what's about what they were saying on draft night about Kvon Tibado being a better player than Jermaine Johnson, if Jermaine Johnson is going to give you that kind of production.

So if you've scouted this guy and you love his physical ability and you love his playmaking ability and you love his mental makeup and you live his physical attributes and you see this guy and you're like, he's our favorite player in the draft, then give the middle finger to everyone else. Give the middle finger to the public perception and go and get your guy. I mean, it's basically what Robert Sala did when he didn't show up to the combine. He didn't believe that he should go to the combine. He didn't care if other people threw shots at him and said, why aren't you here? Why aren't here? It makes no sense. In his mind, he didn't need to be there, so he didn't show up. So if you love Jermaine Johnson, who gives a crap if people think he's more of an eight, nine, or ten pick?

Or he's 11, 12, 13, or that, oh, no way you should take him top five. If you love him and you trust your gut and you think he's the best player that you can bring to this team and to this defense, go out there and get them. And in my opinion, like, I keep going back to this. Like, we did this draft like on Wednesday or Monday. And I literally stared at my pick for a good 10 minutes, like, should I do it? And I went with Icky because I knew that Johnson was going to be there at 10, but I'll be honest with you. I really, really, really think that when this come, when Thursday night comes and the draft actually opens, it would not surprise me in the slightest of Jermaine Johnson's the pick for the Jets. Like, they are just, there's so much smoke to have.

how much they love them and how much the need would fit them, that it just makes so much sense. It really, really does. I love the fact that the Jets gave John Franklin Myers an extension. They signed Carl Austin to a big contract and free agency. I know he was hurt. There are obviously some concerns there about when he's going to be ready and viability

and things like that. He's apparently right along track. Like, he's probably going to be ready by Trent. And that'd be great. And then they have two story defense events and they still won another pass rusher. Look at the Niners, man. No person in America. could name the second corner for the Jets right now.

No one who doesn't do this for a living. But they'd still rather get up another pass rusher because guess what? That's how it works, baby. You look at what the Niners were. You look at how they succeeded and that's the formula. And you know what? I appreciate them. Stick it to it to it.

Robert Sal was a man of principle and I have to respect it. So look, man, that's how he cut his teeth. That's how he learned. If you think about the, even the Legion of Boom in Seattle, those weren't first round picks. I know Earl Thomas was a first round pick, but those weren't first round picks in the secondary.

It wasn't. And that's where he learned there. And then he went to Jacksonville and how. had some success defensively, just not offensively. I don't think he was there with Jaylon Ramsey, so there weren't too many first-round picks in that's secondary. And then in San Francisco, he built it with number two and number three guys at corner. And as long as you have dominance up front on the defensive line and range at safety,

you don't need to pay your corners $25 and $30 million a year like some of these other teams are going to have to do. And that's what they believe. And look, if the Jets are getting to the quarterback as much as Salah wants to get to the quarterback, you have to think that defense is going to be pretty successful. They better hope that your main Johnson is Nick Bosa. that because that's a very specific formula. Connor Hughes, thank you very much, my friend.

We will chat with you again at pick number 10. All right. It's time now for the fifth overall pick. Here to help us with that is our Giants writer at the athletic. Dan Doug and Dan, thank you very much for taking the time to do this. Yeah, yeah. First time I've thought about the draft in the last couple of months.

Obviously, it's been the dominant topic in Giants world for quite a while. And the nice part about this. We've discussed this in various forms as we've talked about the Giants over the last month or so. Even if the Giants have no cap space, and even if when you look at their roster right now, there are a lot of players on it, a year from now,

I assume most of those players won't be on the roster. So there's a lot more flexibility when it comes to positional means, the direction they could take this thing. This team is closer to starting over than it is to the finish line. And I think that that really opens up the world for them here in the top 10

when you have a draft that has several players at high value positions. So with the fifth overall pick in our little mock draft here, who are you giving the Giants? I will say just seeing how I've spent obviously a lot of time figuring out how those first four picks will go. I don't think this is the ideal scenario with Evan Neal and Icky gone. I think they would probably like to see one of those guys there at five.

And I don't know how they have their tackles ranked. I do know they really do like Charles Cross. So that's my pick here on this draft because I really think they're going to take a tackle at five. I know you can say maybe they can get one at seven or second round. Like I don't think this is the time for them to get cute. They really need to upgrade that position. They really need to upgrade their offensive line. So again, I think if like Neil was there, it would be more of a slam dunk.

But again, there's been so much talk that they really like Charles Cross. And it's coming from so many different sources. I don't, you know, who knows, but you know, everyone just loves anytime any information comes out during the draft, it's smoke screen, smoke screen. But I do think they put legitimate time into him. I think a lot of parts of his game might fit with. what Dable wants because, I mean, he obviously is coming from a very past heavy offense in college, but I think Dable is going to have a pretty pass heavy offense. So maybe he looks at and says, I want the best pass protector.

That's more important to me than like Icky who's going to be a dominant run blocker. And, you know, Buffalo, if anything, they didn't run the ball very much when Dable was calling the shots there. So I think Cross is obviously kind of the only option if you're going to take a tackle here at five. And I think they still like him enough that they're not going to say, oh, they will pass on a tackle and take somebody else. I just think that tackle a five to me seems like a lock. And if it's not a tackle of five, I'd be very surprised. In a perfect world, we're all three guys are on the board, which direction you think they would go?

That's where it's hard. I mean, I think, you know, I don't think they're going to have that decision, first of all. I think one of them be gone, whether it's Neil or Kuanu. I kind of think Neil, I just think he's, there's a little less projecting. He might not have as high as ceiling as the other two guys, but I think you kind of know what you're getting. He's played right tackle before, which, depending on who you ask, how big of a variable is that, people look at Charles Cross and say,

he's a left tackle. So then, like, what do you get? Move Andrew Thomas? It's better than not having played right tackle before. And that's, if we're trying to pick, like nitpick and we're trying to parse the differences between these guys, if you have someone that's familiar with the movements and just how comfortable he is on that side and everything that goes with it, I absolutely think that that should be in play when you're thinking about what differentiates these guys.

Moving from the left side to the right side isn't nothing. Right. I think that the best comparison I've ever. ever met i've ever heard i think jeff schwartz said this it's like if you were wiping your ass with the other hand like it's there there's an awkwardness to it that you have to get used to and i think that having somebody who has played that position before i absolutely think it should be a point that's brought up in this conversation at the very least yeah yeah and i don't i don't think that would be the final decision maker but again you're talking with three guys who are pretty

comparable like that to me i think would you know tip the scales towards neal a little bit he's an Alabama guy. Dable spent a year there. They didn't overlap, but I mean, he's going to have some familiarity there. He's going to have, you know, probably good intel on him. He's the biggest guy out of these three, like really fits that prototypical tackle size as long as, you know, the weight doesn't become a, you know, a Kaibectin type situation, which there really have no signs of that.

But to me, he, I feel like it's the safest one. So I think that would make the most sense for the Giants. But I would not be surprised in any order because literally I have a story on Wednesday that will be on the athletic where I talk to a bunch of different people. And you can't get the same order for. anybody. Some people say Neil, some people say Quanto, some people have crossed third, second. It's kind of all over the map. So it's certainly going to be in the eye of the beholder. But I just think if all three were available, I think they would go on Neil. But if they have

to get crossed like in this scenario, I don't think they'd be disappointed. I do think they genuinely like him. I'm sure Bobby Johnson, their offensive line coach would be over the moon. They ended up taking somebody in the top five to drop into that room with Andrew Thomas, who was also a top five pick. After working in Buffalo where they're just, the entire room and Buffalo is full of John Feliciano's. There's one John Feliciano in the Giants' offensive line room right now, so that's a little bit of a different world. We're looking at this team right now.

You mentioned Andrew Thomas is going to be the left tackle. If they draft the right tackle with a fifth overall pick. At this time next year, how many guys outside of those two tackles do you think are starting for the Giants in an ideal situation? On the offensive line? Just in the offense, period. Okay.

All right. Well, I think Mark Lewinsky, they gave him a three-year deal with kind of mid-level money. I think you're hoping to at least get two years out of him at right guard. You mentioned John Feliciano. He feels very much like a stopgap, one-year guy at center. So you think you have a new center. I think maybe they draft the center maybe in the middle round, so hopefully develop and become that guy to be the long-term answer. Left guard, that's kind of an unsettled position right now.

Ideally, Shane Lemieux, a fifth round pick from a couple years ago, seizes that job. and he can, you know, be a long-term guy, but that's a lot of projection there. Obviously, the quarterback is a very open debate, and I certainly don't think I consider it today and say definitively. I've obviously another topic I've fought and talked a lot about. I don't think Daniel Jones is going to be a starting quarterback in 2023.

I just think there's a lot that he would have to overcome to validate being like getting a franchise tag or a long-term extension, and I have a hard time seeing him doing that this season. Sequin Barclay, I wouldn't think he'll be bad, I think this wide receiver court could be totally overhauled. I mean, obviously with Heather Cadarious Tony rumors, I don't think he's about to get traded,

but I don't know if he's on the 2023 Giants, because you can survive this little hiccup, but they're still going to have to go through this whole season. We'll see if he kind of develops the commitment, that type of thing that they're looking for out of him. Kenny Goliday could be, I mean, it could really look very different. Sterling Shepard's in the last year of his deal. Dari Slayton's in the last year of his deal.

So, yeah, if you're talking about locks to be here as starters next year, I would say Andrew Thomas and Mark Lewinsky, presumably they take a right tackle. And that might be it. I mean, honestly, it is stop gaps, guys in the last year of their deals, guys like Sequin and Daniel Jones with huge kind of future decisions looming that could go either way. So, yeah, no, you're not looking at like a finished product by any stretch with where this office is going to be coming out of this draft. That's why I asked the question. Because I think that that's what could be on the table.

And Brian Daibble told me a story once, the first year he was in Buffalo in one of their early offensive meetings. He asked the entire room, everyone who was here last year, raise your hand or stand up. It was Deanne Dawkins. That was it. This group, whether it's Dable, whether it's Joe Shane, as part of that Buffalo experiment or experience, however you want to define it, they were more than comfortable with saying, we're done here. Like we are wiping this clean.

We are totally fine. Hitting this reset button hard. and it just feels like that's what's on the horizon for the Giants. And I think it's important as you think about this process and filling holes and spots on the depth chart and the way that it all looks. This is a temporary situation the way that it all looks. You're trying to find building blocks. And if you can have one on the left side and one on the right side, I understand that as a starting point for your offense. Yeah, I mean, until you made me do that exercise, which is something I probably should do myself after the draft,

I'll look at like how many of these guys are really part of 20, 23 and beyond, because Yeah, I mean, even with free agency, granted they'd have a lot of money, but they didn't give short money on two and three-year deals. It's all one-year deals for these guys, like their tight end, like Jordan Aiken's, Ricky Seals-Jones, totally placeholder type guys, the offensive line outside of Gowinski, it's Feliciano, it's Max Garcia, it's Jamil Douglas, all these guys who are just, you know, kind of fringe starters, you know, adequate depth guys that, again, they're here for one year,

and you're buying yourself some time to hopefully draft some guys this year, and then obviously next year and you have more money in free agency, that's when the true roster building, I think, is going to begin with this regime. This year was sort of like roster patching. You've got to get a team on the field in September, but this is not going to be the roster that is, you know, hopefully taking you to playoff runs and Super Bowl runs, like the bills built to that point.

And obviously it's going to take time. And yeah, the Giants are a long way from that point right now. Dan, thank you very, very much. We will talk to you in a bit here when we get to pick number seven. Appreciate it, man. Sounds good. I won't go far. All right.

It's time now for the sixth. overall pick, the Carolina Panthers are on the clock and here to discuss, man, maybe the most interesting pick in the top 10 could go a bunch of different directions. Our Panthers writer at the athletic Joe Persons. Joe, appreciate you coming on to do this. Absolutely, man. Good to see it. Good to see you as well. All right. Where are we going? What are we doing? Lay it on me here. So in this scenario, this is not a good scenario. like let's just say it like you might even call it a nightmare scenario all three tackles are gone I know they'd like at least two of these tackles and maybe all three so you know Scott Fitter

is really trying hard to trade back anyway especially in this scenario if they get stuck and nobody's you know nobody's coming up which is a very real possibility then I think look at either they go quarterback, right, or what, or you go best player. And that's, I think, Sauce Gardner. But because of the need and because of the ties, David Pepper's ties to pit, Matt Rules ties to Pickett, I'll go Pickett for the purposes of this exercise. And I, and honestly, I don't know that Pickett, I don't think, I think Pickett is an option for them. I just don't know if he's an option for them as six. Okay.

So let's lay out in an ideal world. Which tackle, if you were on the board, would be the one they would be most interested in in this hypothetical scenario? I think Aquano. Okay. And maybe I have recency bias because I wrote about him. I was doing a lot of, you know, research and watching tape of them. But they do like him. I think they like Neil, too.

The guy I can't figure out is how, and I think maybe there's some differing opinions in the building where Charles Cross is concerned. But, and again, I don't think it's like everybody hates them, but I think there's, you know, they're kind of asking some questions and this and that. But, boy, if Glado and Neil are gone and Cross is there, that's, boy, you almost have to take them. You know this team's history. You've been to training camp. They have had a different starting left tackle every year since Jordan Gross retired. And that wasn't just a couple years ago. That's been a long time.

So, all right. Let's just say in this hypothetical that they do pick a tackle. I know we're pick and pick it, but we'll get there. And if they pick a tackle at six, what is the quarterback plan if they do not pick one in the first round this year? I think it's got to be Baker or Garoppolo. Okay. I mean, could they run it back with Darnold? I mean, I've had some people in the building suggest that would build up the offensive line,

darn, healthy McCaffrey, you know, the things that Sam did not get the benefit of last year. I hear that. But I still think, I mean, this is a team that also has to get the fan base interested in it. And I don't know you can do that run and Darnold back in it. That's my question. Even if I completely understand on a football level, if you're sitting there and you say, man,

we're really going to give up draft assets to go get Baker Mayfields and we're on the hook for $18 million in Donald. We're just going to eat that money and cut him. And you think about all these lateral moves that you're making and having to give up more resources to make this move and think, is this even worth it? On a football level, I get landing on no. But on an optics level, how can you possibly trot out what you did again last year?

And I'm not saying that should drive your decision making, but it'd be really hard to just eat that and put this out as the product that you're presenting to your fan base. This team, like, I had to tell you, like, there is a lot of not just apathy, but antipathy. I mean, they are not real, fan base is not real happy. David Tapper, this is unrelated to football,

but the whole training camp slash headquarters down in Rock Hill, South Carolina blew up. He ticked off a lot of people by pulling out of that deal. But yeah, I mean, you've got to give the fan base something to get excited about.

And I don't know if it'll be Baker-Mayfield. I mean, I think you can make a pretty good argument for either him or Garoppolo. You know, you know the argument with Jimmy. I mean, good, if you're surrounded with a good defense and some weapons and a running game, which, by the way, Ben McAdoo wants to really run the ball and, you know, obviously and throw it. But I don't know. I could talk myself into Garoppolo probably, you know, just in terms of stability,

probably more than I could Mayfield. It's always an unfortunate place to land when you're thinking, how do I get to the floor? Because then you're in job saving mode and you're just trying to salvage something. And as soon as you get there, you've probably already lost. And I think the Panthers off season and this entire conversation is such a stark reminder that teams don't operate in a vacuum. Teams don't operate from the same place where you're thinking, I want to maximize and optimize decision making for the long term.

Everything is done with these perfect circumstances in mind. That's not the case at all. Teams are often scrambling for a variety of reasons. And you have this team where the coach is on the hottest seat you can imagine. That thing is scalding. You have no resources because you traded them away for various different reasons. And you have no quarterback. And the seats are all filled.

and there's nobody left. And that's why these decisions are always made in imperfect circumstances. And the Panthers have put themselves in some decidedly imperfect ones. It's an awful place from which to operate. And that's why there's really no good answer, no matter which direction they go with this. Yeah, I mean, you said it very well, man. What I might add to it is making this worst place even less advantageous. Is it a bad quarterback?

Yes, this is the worst year to have to be in this situation. So that brings me to why picket? Why pick it over a guy like Malik Willis who might have a higher ceiling? Why do they land on Kenny Pickett at 6 or at some other point in the first round if they do end up going that direction with the quarterback? I think the way I looked at it was you can't ignore Matt Roles ties to him. And I don't want to make that too fine a point. But you also, you just touched on this. You can't ignore where Matt Rule is from a stability standpoint, a security standpoint.

And I think if you look, look, I don't think there's any doubt. In my mind, I was at Liberty's Pro Day. I was duly impressed with Malik Willis two years from now, a year from me. But if you got to win now and you're Matt Rule, I think you go pick it. Packle makes the most sense and go get a. a free agent quarter or a trade for a quarterback. Let me throw one other name at. I keep hearing that they really liked when they brought Sam Hal in here for a, you know,

they weren't able to go to his pro day because they were, they had scouts there, but the decision makers were all down in Florida for the owners meetings. So that he came in here for a workout a week ago, a week and a half ago. And I think they liked it. Again, not at six, maybe not at 32, but maybe in the, the second round if they could somehow get a second round. It's incredible they don't have any picks. They're a bad team and they don't have any picks.

The idea it's six or nothing or whatever you trade back from, maybe. But let's say you go from six to 13. You're probably not getting a second round pick as a result of that move. You're picking up a little crumbs leader in the draft. It's just, again, it isn't not an enviable place that this, franchise has found itself in. And whatever direction they end up going at quarterback, it just feels like they're trying to scramble to put out of fire.

And it's never where you want to be. So listen, it's not great for them, but it's great for you because there's plenty of intrigue. And there are plenty of things to talk about to write about. I cannot wait to see how Draft Night unfolds for you, sir. For now, I sincerely appreciate the time for you doing this. Conversation is like the opposite of the Rams hype videos. I'll talk to you later, my man.

Good to chat with you. See you, buddy. All right. Pick number seven. Dan Duggan is back to discuss what the Giants are going to do. Dan, what are they doing at seven here? Yeah, so I think this breaks pretty well from, like I said, a five. I think they would like that maybe a few more tackle options. But I think if Soss Gautner's there at seven, I think it's kind of a slam dunk pick.

Like, I think that they desperately want a number one corner who can play man coverage. Like, I don't think you can really. run wing martindow's defense without that type of guy because you saw what happened to the ravens last year and marcus peters was out and humphrey with battling injuries that defense did not perform nearly as well as ahead in previous seasons um so they have a dory jackson i think i'm just kind of waiting for some resolution on james bradbury but i do not expect him to be here for very much longer so that's a gaping hole there at the other corner spot and i think sauce kind of profiles as a perfect fit too it's not just like you're getting the best corner you're kind of getting the best corner for

this scheme. I can long and fast. I can play press man, which is exactly what he's going to be asked to do. So to me, this is kind of a slam dunk, like, dream scenario. Because I think if he goes off the board and like, say, three with Houston you've heard, it gets dicey at seven because then did they, I mean, there's some pass rushers they could go for. Did they take Stingley where there's a lot more questions there with the injury history and some of the performance questions the last couple of years? But to me, like, sauce is just an easy pick at seven for where they are, for what he is as a prospect. I think it would just be, you know, you just take that pick and don't even look back. We discuss this about the offense. If they move out from a Dori Jackson next year, which they can

financially, there's some dead money to eat, but it's not prohibitive. If James Bradbury is not on the roster, we're starting over again. You need a corner somewhere. And so I was going to ask you why sauce over Stingley, I can understand that, where there are a few more uncertainties with Stingley, even if the highs that we've seen are incredibly high. Sauce has those man-covered traits. We saw them play a lot of press in college in a way that we see very few college corners do where you have that totally translatable film.

I'm wondering how much of a sense do you have of the way the Giants want to play defense this year? Because if you look at the three-year kind of trajectory of Wink Martindale's defenses with the Ravens, their blitz rate

and their man coverage rate has gone down over each of the last two years. It's actually a significant drop off from 2020 to 2021. And I'm wondering, is that a corner play concern with some injuries that they had? They didn't feel as comfortable leaving those guys out on islands when Marcus Peters isn't around. Is that some push and pull with Harbaugh and one of the reasons maybe that Wink Martindale is not

in Baltimore? Ding, ding, ding, I think right there. Because of some of the creative differences, let's say, that they might have there. now that he's come here with an offensive-minded head coach, I assume that that side of the ball is going to be contracted out, maybe a little bit more than it would be with a CEO-type head coach like Harbaugh. Do we see a pure distillation of the way that Wink Martindel wants to play football and how does Soss Gardner fit into that?

So I think all of those are considerations that the moment you mentioned his name with this pick, that's the stuff that starts tumbling through my brain. Yeah, well, I mean, I'm kind of glad you made that Harbaugh point because I take it that's informed speculation, we'll call it, because I mean, I've heard kind of murmurs of that because you looked at it. Like, why did they not bring him back? I heard there was some contractual issues, but I think maybe his contract was up and he didn't want to go year to year, whatever it might have been.

But I also heard there were sort of just some friction there. And I think they left on good terms. I mean, they worked together. I had a good relationship. But at the end of the day, I think philosophically, maybe it's because the corners are down and Wink still wants to send the house and Harbaugh is saying we're getting beat over the top. We can't do it. You know, you can see how those could become sort of friction points.

And so I do think that contributed to, you know, as I said, maybe the blitz rates went down because the head coach kind of said, all right, enough, we can't keep running the same system because we're getting killed because we don't have the corners we need to run it. But like you said, I think with Dable, he is going to sort of outsource the defense and let Wink run it the way he wants to. Now, again, you would assume that if they don't have the corners to run it, he'll have to make some adjustments because it's actually funny. Patrick Graham came to the Giants with this reputation as blitz, blitz, blitz, blitz, blitz, and obviously that's, you know, Flores his MO2, but but Graham was calling the defense, at least at the start of that season in Miami. And I think really part of the reason why they didn't, part of the reason why they wanted Dory Jackson is because they felt like they needed to get better at the other corner spot.

Because that first year, they didn't blitz a ton because they kind of weak at corner number two. And then last year, I think they realized that it wasn't really working. James Bradbury is a good player, but he's more of his own corner, especially at this stage of his career. So they kind of peel back on the man. So I think a good defense coordinator does that. You can't just say I'm going to run my system like, you know, at all costs. But he wants to run it that way, I would assume. I mean, everything you hear about the guy, everything that he just, the way it carries himself.

He's like, you know, we're coming after you type guy. He's got like that Rex Ryan sort of DNA. So, yeah, I think he needs top corners to function. And, I mean, I guess you can compromise and say, okay, we don't have them. So we have to change. But I just don't think that's how he wants to operate. So I would expect, again, that's why I think corner is such a slam dunk pick if a guy like sauce is there. And again, I can't say that they have sauce over Stingley.

It's, you know, it's so hard to know, obviously what every team's board is. Maybe they think, you know, the Stingley is the injury things in the past. The ceiling is higher, but I would just be very surprised if this is how the draft shakes out if they don't come away with a corner with this seventh pick. In this hypothetical, Trayvon Walker is on the board. Do you think pass rusher is a consideration for them if the right pass rusher is available while they're picking at seven? Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, I think one thing Shane has talked about, which I think has been welcomed by Giants fans' positional value, and he's alluded to, you obviously go what I'm alluding to there. but he's alluded to the contracts guys get on the market when they hit for agency, which is obviously how you should be viewing the draft and not just say, oh, the running back is really good because, you know, where's that leaving in four or five years? So like obviously quarterback,

that's not a real consideration for them, but that's an expensive position. Cornerback, edge rusher, tackle. Wide receivers, the other sneaky one that we haven't talked about that, like I don't think they're going to take one at seven, but I do think they're going to try and trade down from seven.

that maybe they take once they get that to 12 or whatever who they would trade with. But I think wide receiver can't be slept on. But those are the positions that have the value because if you want to go sign a good winner for agency, it's going to cost like $20 million a year. So edge rusher fits in that category as well. So yeah, I definitely think that'll be in play. And like you said, if it's the right guy, like I wouldn't think Trayvon Walker will necessarily be there at seven.

If he is there, you know, for me it was just like sauce, slam dunk. But yeah, I think they would have to consider that. I think the guy who would be really interesting is Tibado if he's there at seven. because he's got a lot of high upside. There's a lot of the character type questions. I know the Giants have done a ton of work on him. You never know what the result of that work is until Draft Night. Maybe they found stuff they liked or found stuff they weren't comfortable with.

I would be a little surprised if they went that route because Shane is so big on a kind of building a specific culture. I'm not saying Tibido is a bad guy or anything. I just don't know if he's an ideal fit because these two picks are going to kind of lay the foundation for this new regime. So I would think they'll try and go a little cleaner with these top two picks. Those guys are definitely in the mix. Romaine Johnson, any of those edge rushers, because they, the funny part is, and Shane has said this, like, there's no such thing really as like need picks. They need everything.

So it's like there's no forcing a need. Like they have, there's no position on really on this roster. You could say, oh, that'd be crazy to take them. They're so loaded to that position. I mean, every position is on the table. So then I think you go from there and you hone in on the more valuable positions. Like that's why I think a guy like Kyle Hamilton, yeah, he'd be a great fit. But a safety is not, you know, in terms of positional value, the same as a corner and edge

rush or a tackle. So that's why I think those three positions are probably the three that are most likely in play. I think the way it plays out, I think they get a tackle and then probably the best defensive player at edge rusher or corner. In my opinion, that would probably be sauce for everything they need and maybe get an edge rusher. But that 36 pick, we still got a good guy there. But no, I think that that position is absolutely on the table. I love the fact that there's tons of draft speculation for the weeks and months leading up to the draft. It drives fan engagement. It's a really good thing for our business and I have a really good time doing it. My favorite conversation to have about the draft every single year is the one that happens

after the draft is over because I love figuring out what teams believe, what they value, how they see themselves. And there is no team this season that I am watching more closely in that vein than the New York Giants. And I think it's because I think that I idealize the team. building process that's gone on in Buffalo so deeply that I want to see what this version of it looks like. I want to see what Joe Shane's version of it with Brian Dable, who I think is a really, really good football coach. What is this? What do they want to build and what are the first

steps of that building process? And we're going to find out about that in a day. And I am watching very, very closely. So I'm really glad that we got your insights. And hopefully we will have them tomorrow night after the Giants pick you'll hopefully hop on with us i say hopefully because technical difficulties are you know still being worked out but we will likely have you on tomorrow to talk us through what does happen and what it tells us about who this giant's team and who this giant's regime wants to be as they turn the page yeah i mean it'll be fascinating because they're really a blank slate you know Shane's ever been a GM dables ever been a head coach you can't just look to past tendencies uh you can look to what happened in buffalo but these guys weren't

making those final calls so it'd be interesting you see how close it marries up to what they did there and how much they might diverge and do something totally different. So now I agree it's going to be totally fascinating. We're going to learn a lot sort of about, you know, where this program is headed based on what they do with these two picks. Dan Duggan, thank you very much for the time, my friend. We will talk to you tomorrow.

All right. Sounds good. Thanks, Robert. All right. It's time now for the eighth overall pick. The Atlanta Falcons are on the clock and here to chat about what the Falcons might do in this hypothetical world is our Falcons writer at the athletic. Josh Kendall. Josh, thank you very much for doing this.

Nice for having me, Robert. All right. So this is a unique circumstance because in this world, Trayvon Walker is still on the board. And by everything that we've heard, you know, based on all the different time lines that could exist on Thursday night, that doesn't seem likely. But for you, if you're picking for the Falcons right now, things potentially worked out pretty well for you. So what are you going to do here with the 8th O'Hawks? overall pick in Atlanta. I'm going to run, not walk to turn in the card, but let's, we do have to

be clear that in the real snake-bitten world where the Falcons have lived since 1956, this is not, this doesn't feel right. But yeah, if you're the Falcons, you run to the, you run to the phone, you run to the podium, you take Trevon Walker and, you know, count your blessings. So I want to take a step back and just talk about the mindset that the Falcons are bringing in. this draft. You know, we, earlier this week on the show, talking to Sheel, we laid out what we construed as successful drafts for all 32 NFL teams. Right. I think that our line for the Falcons was draft an NFL player. That's what a successful draft would look like for Atlanta. Obviously, they have some more picks in the second and third routes. But this roster has been torn down to the studs. And it always was going to have to have to have to take a step back before they were going to be able to take a step forward because of how hard the last regime pushed all their chips. into the middle.

And now you're left with the fallout. And it can be an ugly sort of process. Marcus Mario dairota is the quarterback in Atlanta. No one outside of, no one outside of Fulton County and the surrounding areas would be able to tell you who the falcons starting receivers are now that Calvin Ridley will not be playing this year. It's not a great situation. So just in terms of what you think the Falcons are trying to accomplish with this pick,

Trayvon Walker or not, what is the mindset they're working? walking into this draft with. You're exactly right. I listen to you and Sheila. That's exactly right. They need not, you know, they've got nine picks. They need five guys who are on this team in four years and are making positive contributions in four years.

They have got to build from the ground up. You know, Terry Fontno, fundamentally, is a best player available guy. You have to draft best player available. You don't draft for need because when you draft for need, you get in trouble. Well, that works great this year because they need everything. There's nothing that they don't need. So they can take the best player available and he will have, you know, a nice open runway, depth chart runway in front of him when he arrives. So there's nothing would surprise me. No position outside of the punt god at eight would surprise me. They need everything.

So I want to talk about a couple of specific options. Is there any inkling you get that one position may be slightly higher in a pecking order than the others? If Trayvon Walker is not on the board and you're looking at a world where Derek Stingley is, where some of the receivers are, whether it's a Drake London or a Jameson or a Garrett Wilson, do you have any sense if there is a slight, if blurry order of what they're, the positions might look like, even if we can see they need everything. If we are triaging this dying patient, yes, we have to treat pass rush first. Okay.

That's where we've got. That's where we've got to go. It is a bleak situation. I mean, they have all the bad things about this Falcons roster. They were dead last in the NFL last year in a majority of past rushing categories. Well, I mean, they had 18 sacks, which was not just last, but the number 31 team in the league had 11 more sacks. four players had more sacks.

So, you know, if Trevine Walker is gone, I mean, I still think, I mean, Aidan Hutchinson, we all believe, is going to be gone. I mean, I think you could see Jermaine Johnson today. This team needs edge rushers. I think this team will draft more than one, what they would refer to as pressure player. But I think that edge rusher is, you know, at the top of a big pile. So I think that saying, you know what, we need building blocks. let's go get a guy that we think is going to be really good

is the mindset that they should bring into this draft. And I think it's the mindset they probably are bringing into this draft. If we put that aside for a moment, is there any world where they think this is the time to go get their quarterback now that they have a top 10 pick for the second time in two years, but now without Matt Ryan kind of holding that seat down? Yeah, I mean, I just said that nothing would surprise me.

So if they take Malik Willis at 8, I won't fall out of the chair. I'll sit up straight, but I won't fall out of the chair. And this circles back, I think, to something that Sheill wrote last week, this week, maybe, essentially that, you know, you can find competent quarterback play on the street these days. You could find somebody that can operate whatever you need to operate at an okay level. But what you need to significantly help yourself as a difference maker. So if you can squint and see that Malik Willis could be special in this area,

and you can squint and see that, and you think we have to have special if we're going to elevate ourselves to a championship contender, could you take Willis? I mean, I don't see a way where you can squint and say, Kenny Pickett might be special, or Desmond Ritter might be special. Those guys could be good, solid NFL starters, but I'm not sure even at their ceiling, you see where they differentiate themselves. You can look at Malik Willis and say at his ceiling, he differentiates himself from a lot of players at that position.

So yes, could that happen? Yes. I don't think it will, but it's not outside the realm of possibility. It doesn't seem necessary based on what we think or know or what the conversation has been around this quarterback class and what we expect the next 12 months of Falcons football to look like. Arthur Smith could be the best coach in the NFL next year. He could do objectively the best job of any coach in football. and the Falcons might win six games.

That is the state of their roster. Oftentimes, you tank before the season begins based on what you're doing. And I think in the Falcons world, it's a prudent choice. The directions they could go, the direction they've chosen to go this year, to say, you know what, we're going to take it on the chin for a year. We understand that. We're going to hopefully have a top three pick in a draft that is widely understood to have multiple high-end quarterback options,

and that is going to be the timeline that we're on. To me, that is the direction, the eventuality that makes the most sense. And for Falcons fans, I kind of hope that Terry Fontenow and the brain trust there agrees. Yeah, I mean, it's an organizational failure if they win six games. There's no value in that.

That does nothing. That does absolutely nothing for you. So, you know, do I think that they're going to draft a center or a guard where they need immediate help. Could they get a guy like Coles Strange, maybe in the third round, who they think could help them in the future? But if you're Terry Fontno, you can't tell Arthur Smith that, you know, don't try really super hard in the fall.

Arthur Smith is going to try with every piece on his roster to win games. So if you're Terry Fontno, if you want to make sure that that's pretty hard, if you want to make sure that there's a three-win ceiling, you know, don't fix the interior of his offensive line. Wait until you've got $100 million next year in pre-agency and then address it. It's one of those things where there's no wrong choices when anything is on the board.

And that's kind of how it feels for the Falcons right now. And in this world, if Trayvon Walker is available, I can absolutely understand sprinting up there, turning in the card, and we'll figure the rest out later. A quietly important draft for this Atlanta team, because beyond having, a top 10 pick. You know, they don't have 10 first round picks like some of these other teams

too, where we're talking, you know, four and 10 and five and seven and, you know, Houston with three and 12 or three and 13. But this, they do have an extra second. They do have an extra third. And this is quietly when you have to start building this thing. And, you know, there's, this team has a long

way to go, but they have some assets here to start chipping away at it. Yeah. I mean, I think that one thing argument against drafting a quarterback, not beyond just that this is, is not a great quarterback class, is that if you draft a quarterback, you really speed up the clock on your rebuild all of a sudden. And there's no need if you're Terry Fontno and Arthur Smith to do that. You have got organizational patients. You've even got relative patients from your fan base who are happy

most of them to at least have a path forward. So take your time, build a knife house for your quarterback to move into whenever you bring them in. Absolutely. And there's no reason to burn one year of that rookie deal when your team isn't ready to start taking advantage of it. So I think just trying to, I think building the house is a great way to put it. You know, start putting that bed together and just making a nice little comfy place for whenever you decide who that guy is going to be. Marcus Marriota is more than capable of keeping things warm in the meantime. Josh Kendall, thank you very much, my friend.

Really, really appreciate the time. Thank you, Robert. All right. It's time now to chat about the number nine pick in the 2022 NFL draft. this one belongs to the Seattle Seahawks, who are now on the clock to help us walk through this. I'm thrilled to welcome our Seahawks writer at the athletic. Michael Sean Dugan.

Michael Sean, thank you very much for doing this, man. What up? What up? How's it going, man? I'm doing well. I am fascinated by the Seahawks. We've talked about this on various shows,

and I'm going to ask you a question a little bit later after you give us the pick, because I want to dig into this. I want to dig into what the Seahawks are in this moment. Before we have that larger conversation, what is the pick for? for Seattle at number nine in this exercise. Going to take Derek Stingley Jr., a cornerback from LSU.

Yeah, there's my pick. All right. Why Stingley? I really think that they just need to take a guy, like a good guy, like a really, really, really good player, man. It almost really doesn't matter what position. Though positional value does matter a ton. I really think that they've been almost historically bad at covering the past for the better part of the last two seasons. I know 2020, they came out and just couldn't stop a nosebleed.

Like, it was really bad. It was just like getting carved up through the air. 2021 wasn't much better. I know they figured it out towards the back half of both of those two seasons, but they just haven't had that guy they can trust. You like, hey, look, the other team has Justin Jefferson. You got this? Like, the other team has Cooper Cup. You got this? You know, now those guys are some of the best in the biz, so no one's going to have it, quote, unquote. but I mean, damn, at least they can ask now, you know, if you take Derek. You know, and I think that their starting cornerbacks are scheduled to be Trey Brown, a fourth round pick out of Oklahoma from 2021, who's a good player, but just came off a torn

Patel attendant. So, like, who knows how he'll look, even though I think he'll be a good player. And then Sidney Jones from Washington out of a out of Washington in the 2017 draft, bounced around a little bit, did have a career year here last year. But I just don't think that's enough. You know, they really just need a guy. they can trust. The other team has D-Hop.

The other team has D-Hop. The other team may or may not have Debo Samuel. Like, can you help us? Like, can you do this while we go figure out the other side of the ball? And real quick, one last thing on why I think, like, a potential lockdown corner might be helpful. Is it potentially could unlock like Jamal Adams. I just think, like, if you look at the tape last year and maybe Jamal said on the record, maybe he won't.

But, like, you can tell they were using Jamal to cover up for other guys. Like, hey, 33, you got to go help this. corner right here. We can't have you this close to the line screen, because we need you playing quarters because this other guy can't run with so-and-so. Like, if they don't have to have Jamal help out other guys in that way, because they can trust a cornerback on the outside, then I think that'll be really helpful for the defense too, because how they use Jamal Adams is huge going forward. I've asked this question to several people on the podcast over the last couple months. Gotten various answers. You are in the best possible position of anyone that works

for the company to answer this question. What do the Seahawks think they are? A team in contention. That's amazing. I'm so glad you said that. All right, walk me through this. How do you get there? So here's the thought process on their end.

I think that need to make it very clear. This is not how I see it. I think I'm putting on my Pete Kiro hat, my John Snatter hat, and I am selling. Just chewing gum with authority, right? right now. Yeah, I'm chewing gum like Pete. I'm making stepbrothers references like John Snyder. I feel like that's his only way he don't know how to relate with people. It was like reference stepbrothers or what's the other one? Taledega Nights. He always references one of those two movies

when it's around draft time. Most recently he did the we don't know what to do with our hands thing. He was like, all right, man, you got to get a new joke or a new movie. But in their mind, they can be a team basically kind of constructed like the Cleveland Browns in like 2020. kind of were, where it's like, we don't even need our quarterback to be that guy. We'll build up our O line. We'll have two really good running backs in theory with Shard Penny, Chris Carson. Our defense will be like serviceable. We'll have good pass rushers in our third down package, which in theory they might with

Darryl Taylor and Uchena and Wausu that they got from the Chargers. They have two pro-bow caliber safeties. in Jamal Adams and Quandre Diggs. They think they've got two young, really fast guys who just love to hit people at linebacker and Cody Barton from Utah and Jordan Brooks from Texas Tech. They think if Rashad Penny can be the guy that he was in the final five or six games with the 2021 season,

which, no lie, I do just turn into Barry Sanders out of nowhere. Like his numbers were just ridiculous in that stretch. I think if he can be that and all those other things function at a very high level, we A, won't face third and a million because our quarterback won't be back there dancing on first and second down. And we'll just pound people on first and second down, make easy throws on third down. Our quarterback doesn't have to be the hero. We'll be great on special teams.

And we'll be right there in contention, even though we just went seven and ten, that we lost a lot of games closely. That's the thought process. Now, how valid that is, maybe we can talk about it. But I think that's their sell. I mean, that's a beautiful bit of imagination. I would love to see the world how John Schneider and Pete Carroll see it if that's the optimistic viewpoint that they're taking into their daily lives. I have so many questions. Building up one offensive line, have you seen the tackles that are currently slated to start for this team?

Two, Drew Locke is your quarterback. Even if he's not dancing, I'm not sure he's doing much else. Let's say Gino Smith gets that job. Still think there's some real valid concerns about what a team with that quarterback pairing ultimately looks like. I just am so interested in how far they think they are toward the contending side of this versus the rebuilding side of this and how that informs some of their decisions. Because you went with Stingley at 9, who's going to play offensive tackle for this team? I know those guys are off the board in this exercise, but that to me has to be up near the top of the priority list as well. And when you have all of these positions where like, oh man, we could really use a guy there, eventually you're no longer a team that's close to contention.

Yeah, and I think tackle is really scary. Like it's weird. So the way John, and this is the really the one thing I point out with John and Pete and why I'm like I'm skeptical of their thought process is they use a lot of small sample sizes when they justify some things. Like if you ask how good is Drew Locke? We'll say, well, hey, that end of 2019, he was slinging it, man. It was five games.

Boy, if we can get him back to that. Or if you ask him about Gino Smith, they'd be like, well, those three games we had with him starting for us, he was holding his own, you know, and he lit up Jacksonville. You know, look at the Jacksonville tape. You asked him about Stone Forsyth. Their sixth round pick in 2021, left tackle out of Florida. You know, you asked John about him. Like, well, I mean, look, look at all these guys from Georgia's defensive line that are highly touted.

Stone was blocking all of them in 2020. And it's just like, guys, these are really small sample sizes you are using to justify long-term decisions. You're telling me that a guy tore up the Jacksonville Jaguars, that a guy was good for five games of his rookie year, that a guy had a good game against Georgia once. Like these are not like big enough sample sizes from me to draw these long-term conclusions about the future of the franchise. So like it's it's really scary actually how they're landing here. Like if they're starting left tackles or excuse me, their starting tackles are Stone Forsyfe on the left, Jake Curran undrafted right tackle out of Cal from last year, but all right, that is really, really scary.

And that's before we get into the fact that Robert, they still might not have a center. They still might not have a center if they're starting Austin Blythe in 2020. 2022. So it's really, the O-line part of it is probably among all the things that I just tried to sell you on. The O-line one is the one that stands on the shakiest ground there. You're putting a lot on your offensive line coach in that situation, who I believe will be a full-time number one offensive line coach for the first time in the NFL this year. And Andy Dickerson, after they moved on from Mike Solari, who has been, Mike Solari has been everywhere. It was the 49ers' office line coach for years. He was in Green Bay. Then he was back in Seattle. I mean, he's been around forever.

So that's a lot of development from a guy who's never developed any players. And who knows, it might turn out well. But again, this is an optimistic viewpoint on so many different scenarios here. And that's why I think this team is in such a murky heart to defiant situation. Last question I wanted to ask you is part of this exercise. Any chance they think a quarterback is the move here with a ninth overall pick. I think so. Yeah.

And I think it might be a situation where they aren't like super high on. taking a guy in the first round. But they get wind like, whoa, hey, it's been quiet for like a month. But now that we've done some digging and made some phone calls, other people like somebody's quarterback. So we might have had a second round grade on a Sam Howell. We didn't heard about six or seven other teams like this guy in the top 20 or something like that.

I'm using that as an example. That might force their hand. I could see that because, I mean, you've covered the draft for a while. Now, you know, guys just get talked up and up and up these boards. the longer and longer this process goes. A guy will start this thing with like a third round grid. Next thing you know, he's the number five pick. You know, just without having played any games, his film hasn't changed.

He still just climb up boards. And I could see that forcing their hand because I think ideally they would like to wait. Hey, hey, maybe we can, if we like Corral, we can get him at 40? We're like, can you pick it? We can trade back in maybe and get him at 26 or something like that, 29. I think that would be an ideal world for them. But I think they're going to hear, like even where, starting to see trickle down from some of these reports as these GMs to these pre-draft conferences.

Teams like these quarterbacks, whether they want to say it publicly or anonymously or not. They like these guys. And I think that will force their hand as much as anything. And I think they probably have, what did Scott Fitterer say? He has like two guys that he'd like, two or three guys that he'd take at six. I think Seattle's probably in a similar spot. They probably have a couple guys that they would be comfortable taking at nine. I think Scott Fitter is saying a lot of that to tempt somebody to trade up

for that number six pick that he really doesn't want scott's play of the game there and our beat writer mock track uh with all the all the writers obviously i think it's going to come out wednesday boy joe perison was trying to sell that six pick boy so so hard trying to get people to come up i can't remember if he did or not but he was trying he was trying real he did he did trade that pick and he was successful guess what when you don't have any picks you got to trade some of them to get a few more and that's where the panthers are thankfully for the seahawks they managed to get that first round pickback and a little bit more draft capital they have some swings in this draft and based on all the needs that we just talked about they're going to need them even after taking derrick stingley

at nine michael shan thank you very much my friend for the time very good to chat with you as always thanks for having me man peace all right jets are back on the clock we were at pick number 10 here to walk us through what they will do with that selection again is connor hughes Connor, thank you again for doing this. No problem, man. Thanks for having me on. All right. Lay it on me.

Who are the Jets picking at 10 after the way the rest of the top 10 is unfolded here? Yeah, they grabbed Icky there in the first round, man, or with the number four pick. And then I've got him looping around and grabbing Jermaine Johnson here at number 10, the past rush out of Florida State. I mean, I think one of the loudest rumors circulating the NFL landscape right now is how much Joe Douglas and the Jets love Jermaine Johnson. We were talking about a little bit ago that I think he is very, very, very, very, very. much in play at number four, not just number 10, because I've had several people telling me that it's probably unlikely

that he's going to get to 10 with the Seahawks, Giants twice, Falcons, I'll pick him before the Jets get their second crack in the first round. But this is a kid who you talk to him and you understand why everyone loves him. His mental makeup is perfect. His physical ability is there. His production is there. He bet on himself when he left Georgia for Florida State, and the production was obviously there with 12 sacks and the tackles and all that stuff.

So, you know, Robert Sala and his Jets defense want to be built from the front on back with their defensive line. And this is probably the final piece that you really need to add to that defense because you can put him on the other side of Carl Lawson. You've got Sheldon Rankins and Quentin Williams in the middle. You've got John Franklin Myers, Riders, rotating in as well. Bryce Huff, a player of the Jets love a lot. Tim Ward, somebody they claimed off the Chiefs roster last year on waiver claims. I think that this is the final piece to Sala, hopefully trying to. to recreate the 49ers defensive line here on the East Coast.

It checks a lot of boxes. He's long. The explosion numbers of the combine were really impressive. He wins in a variety of different ways. The production, like you said, was there. I totally understand it. If you look at the way the rest of the top 10 is unfolded, the pass rush are still on the board.

I mean, even throughout this entire process, it felt like he might be that third guy after Aiden Hutchinson and Kavito go. So what I wanted to, on that level, it makes sense. Need where he is, all of that. Walk me through past rusher here versus a receiver, a guy like Drake Lundit, or even some of the other guys that could potentially be on the board. Because when they were chasing Tyree Kill and then the DK Metcalf rumors and whatever, you think, all right, a field stretcher to go along with Elijah Moore, Corey Davis.

You have that diversity to the skill sets in your receiver room. I totally understand that. And that's why Williams is one of those guys. Oh, he fits that. So why not Williams are a guy like Drake London here? Yeah, I think it's absolutely in play. In fact, if the Jets were to go with Jermaine Johnson at 4, I think receiver is the play at 10. You know what I mean?

I think by them going offensive line like I did in this mock with Icky at number 4, you can't come out of the first round without a player for Sol in that defense. I mean, the Jets defense was bad last year. And, you know, as we talked to Douglas at the NFL's annual meeting a couple months ago, a couple months ago,ish, all these days kind of merged together when you close in on the draft. When we talked to him there, he said, you know, we were asking him about the influx of talent on the AFC, you know, with all the quarterbacks that are suddenly here and all the receivers that are making their way over here. And he said, the easiest way to negate those all pro quarterbacks and

the best way to negate those $30 million receivers is to take the quarterback and knock him on his bum. I mean, that's really it, is knock the quarterback down. And I just have a funny, I would be very, very surprise if the Jets don't come away with a pass rusher with either with that without at number four or 10 so in this mock I went offensive line four which meant I looped back around and grab the pass rusher at 10 but if the Jets go Jermaine Johnson at four then that's where I think it's going to be Drake London probably at number 10 could also be Garrett Wilson at 10 if he slips down there there there's some talk about him going much much higher than that. James and Williams is the one that I don't necessarily see in play while he is talently or from a talent perspective because I don't

think Talently is word. From a talent perspective, he probably is your best receiver in this year's draft. The Jets need someone to help Zach Wilson now. They're not in a position where you can draft somebody and have him help Zach in 2023 or 2024. That's why they made all these runs at receivers like Amari Cooper, Ridley, Hill. They're in on Debo Samuel, all that stuff. The reason why they did all of this is because they wanted the player who they could take and put on offense and say, you are already a number one receiver. They don't have to worry about him developing. They don't have to worry about him growing with Zach.

He is a number one receiver right now. That's still their preference in what they want to do. Unfortunately, they haven't been able to get it done, albeit to no fault of their own. But if they were to go, like I said, any other position of the, if they were to go pass rush or four, then I think that's where you have that receiver coming at number 10. So they just want receiver, they want juice.

They want somebody they can drop in there and be a presence. It doesn't necessarily have to be a certain. Yeah. And it doesn't have to necessarily. necessarily be a certain archetype of receiver. They don't need a vertical guy. They just need somebody who can come in and be that guy, whatever his skill set might look like.

Yes. Okay, that was my question, because I was wondering, do they want a Tyree Kill type? Or because Debo and Tyree Kill are very different players. And, like, I'm just, my thought was, do they have a need at receiver? And that's the way they're thinking about it,

or is it a certain type of receiver? No. And with you, it's just a receiver that can help them right now. An X. They just want an X. They don't want a slot. They don't want a number two. like they want an ex-receiver and they viewed Tyree Kill and his skill set his ability to take the defense the offense to another level.

They saw the same thing with Calvin Ridley. They saw the same thing with Amari Cooper. Ridley, obviously, the trade when they called couldn't happen because the Falcons led them to believe he was not available because the Falcons didn't want a deal in bad faith with the suspension coming. With Amari Cooper, the Jets called them. The Cowboys were not willing to make any deal contingent on a reworked contract and the Jets were not going to pay him $20 million a year. So that was off the books.

They obviously had a deal in place for Tyree. kill the chiefs accepted. He just wanted to go to Miami. And now with Debo, the 49ers are kind of sitting down and saying, look, we're a Super Bowl contender because we have Debo Samuel. We are probably not if we don't have Debo. Debo makes that offense work. So why are we going to go get rid of them? So I don't think Joe Douglas is going to be willing to go absolutely insane. Like he said, he wants to be aggressive, not reckless. Right now, it seems like for the 49ers to move Debo, they need a reckless package of picks and that's not going to happen. So you can loop around and you've got to go to the plan B, which is a wide out in this year's draft. So my, in the last

question I have for you. It's first and 10. First drive at the game, other teams on their own 25-yard line. Who are the four Jets defensive linemen and where are they lined up if they draft Jermaine Johnson at 10? You're going to have, you said it's passing situation? No, it's first and 10. First and 10? All right. First and 10 is going to be, I think you'll have Carl Lawson on one side, Jermaine Johnson on the other side, Quinn and Williams at the three tech and then you're going to have somebody that they draft in the second round in there as as the other the other defensive tackle they have shelton rankins the problem with sheldon rancins is that he's not really a great run stop for he's a pass rusher if they get a stop on first and second down which

with the jets you never really know if that's going to happen on third down you'll see john franklin meyers rotate in his defensive tackle and then you're going to have quinine williams jroman carloss and john franklin meyers rushing for those four and i think that's uh that has the potential to be really really dominant that was my next question is when it's third and eight There you go. Who are the four guys that are going to be lined up there? I'll say this. That's a lot of money to John Franklin Myers for him to be a situational player if you draft

a third pass rusher. He has a $12.5 million cap hit this year. Again, we talked about this earlier. We were discussing the fourth pick. That's a philosophy where you're really devoting a lot of resources to that position. But if you have a Carl Lawson-Macon 15, a John Franklin Myers is on a four-year, $55 million deal, and you spend a top 10 pick on a pass rusher, you got to find a way to get those three guys on the field as much as you can

because that's a lot of resources. Well, they will. So here's the thing. The way that Sala runs his defense is that he doesn't like, like even you look at Quinn and Williams, he's only playing like 60% of the defensive snaps. Carl Lawson, because his mind is and you can disagree with it. I personally do.

Like if you have a Quinn and Williams, it believes potential all pro player, you put him on the field 99.99% of the time. That's just not what Sala believes. Salo believes that it's not possible for men that big to go 100% on every single snap. So if you only keep them on the field for 60% of the snaps, they're going 100% on those 60% of those snaps as opposed to 70% here, 80% here, 100% there. So he likes his rotation.

He had his rotation in San Francisco. He wants a rotation here in New York. And Jermaine Johnson's a way to do it. Yeah, I totally understand that. I actually think that's a really good idea. I'm just wondering what the percentages and how the snapshot ends up shaking out if they do this. but they will absolutely have a pretty formidable defensive line if that pick works out with your man Johnson.

Connor Hughes, thank you very much. I'm excited for the draft to be over for your sake here in a couple of days and for us to get going. Appreciate the time, my man. No problem. Thanks for having me on. I appreciate it. All right, guys, that's all we got today.

Thank you so much to all of our writers here at the Athletic for stopping by and talking us through that. I think it's a really fun exercise. It's a useful exercise. They know these teams better than anybody. So sincerely appreciate their time. Please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. I'd really appreciate that.

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For those of you who have asked, this will be available as a podcast the day after, like it typically would be. We just also have a live bell to it, which we think is going to be a really good time. All right, guys. Thank you very much for listening. The draft is tomorrow.

We'll talk to you then. This was the athletic football show.