The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - 2023 Quarterback Tiers with Mike Sando

Episode Date: August 1, 2023

It's one of our favorite episodes of The Athletic Football Show every year. From Patrick Mahomes to Gardner Minshew, Robert Mays and Mike Sando walk through how the league's power brokers view the players at the sport's most important position.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Mike on Twitter: @SandoNFLSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeThe Football 100, the definitive ranking of the NFL’s best 100 players of all time, goes on sale this fall. Pre-order it here. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Joining us today, it is so good to have him back. It is the one, the only. Mike, how you doing? I am doing well, Robert. I love this time of year, quarterback tears.

We got training camps. Everyone's excited. We got people saying crazy stuff. It's fun. It's good. I can't remember where we recorded this episode last year. I want to say I was maybe in. in L.A. in some random Marriott somewhere. That's just kind of how this goes. We're always flung

about the country whenever we do this episode because you always release quarterback tiers the last week of July, just as training camps are getting rolling here. So we are going to dig into all things quarterback tiers today. A lot of interesting nuggets in there that are absolutely worth chewing on. Before we do that, though, I wanted to ask your opinion on this Jonathan Taylor stuff because the last time we recorded the non-football injury part of this had done. not come up yet. So it was leaked. I can't remember apologies to the reporter who ended up mentioning it, that the Colts

were considering putting Jonathan Taylor on the non-football injury list with a back injury that he reported or told them about when he arrived at training camp. The non-football injury list would prevent them from having to pay him this season if he ended up on there with a back injury. This just feels like very hard ball from the Colts. Oh, yeah. And that if you even think about a holdout or a hold in anything, we have this card that we can play. But you do that at the risk of alienating a pretty important player in your locker room at the start of a new regime.

I can't imagine that Shane Steichen is thrilled about some of the stuff that Jim Mersey has done. I have to imagine Chris Ballerfield is the same way. What do you make of the dynamics of this entire situation unfolding in Indianapolis? It's really shocking. I would imagine there's a way more going on behind the scenes that we know about. It has to be. You know, with the dynamic, with the agent, the player, the owner, I'm with you that I would feel, it feels to me like Ursa is so inserting himself in this that it's kind of, it makes it hard for other people in a building to do their jobs usually. That would be kind of my read.

It's like, I can't imagine that Ballard and Stuyken would let it get to this and feel this personal. It just doesn't seem like that's how they're wired, right? We're like four days into a new regime. If you're staying seconded, you're four days into your first training camp. It just does not feel like the right foot on which to start. Even if you didn't, even if let's just say privately, they're like, we don't want to pay this guy. I mean, my gosh, everyone regrets these running back deals. You wouldn't have to go there now.

It's not like he's, no. It's not like he's franchise tagged, right? I mean, you just keep telling us how much you love them and we take care of our players. That's all you got to say. Yeah. And we'll do it when the time's right and the deal's right for everybody. It's gotten very ugly. And sometimes that doesn't matter because you're deep into a regime.

You feel comfortable with the dynamics and the control you have over the building and the messaging. But this is also new that I think there's a certain level of fragility where you'd feel a little bit uncomfortable about this being one of the first things to happen in your tenure. And just a weird note. I'm surprised. I'm surprised by both ends because I do think that Ursa went the most nuclear with his comments. But some of the Jonathan Taylor stuff, you know, wearing the. didn't he have a shirt that he showed up that said, Welcome to Taylor Town.

And he is taking a little bit more of a tone or a tenor, at least it seemed that's different than I would have expected to. So it's just, it's just this, we never would have seen this coming a year ago. No, we certainly wouldn't have. He seemed to be one of those guys that they were going to pay in order to kind of send the other message to the building. Like, hey, if you play well, these are the types of guys we reward. Quentin Nelson got that extension, Brain Smith got that extension. Obviously, Darius Shaq Leonard.

and we felt that Jonathan Taylor might have been one of the next guys in line, and now this has devolved into a messy, ugly situation. And one to keep an eye on, but I think that that's really all there is to say, for now, which is kind of keep tabs on how this unfolds. All right, let's do some quarterback tiers chatter, okay? For people who don't know, just a quick kind of clarification, a tier one quarterback, these are your words,

can carry his team each week. The team wins because of him. He expertly handles pure passing situations. He has no real holes in his game. There are four tiers, and your methodology for this is that you survey 50 people in the league, coaches, executives, you know, assistant coaches. So I feel like people probably know that at this point, but for the uninitiated, that is how quarterback tiers works. Yeah, we've got eight GMs this year, 10 head coaches, 15 coordinators, 10 that are execs. I think there's four quarterback coaches.

I think there's three guys that are coaches slash analytics types. So we've got it all covered, and it's a good sort of market analysis of what the league thinks. for better or worse of all these guys. No surprises at the top. Mahomes unanimous. He had one tier two vote last year, right? Wasn't there a one to hold out last year? It turned into a big stir.

You know, I was actually relieved that no one did that this year. Like, I mean, come on. You know, I mean, when you subtract Tyreek Hill and your offense gets better, and then you high ankle sprain yourself, you know, like going into, you're limping through the Super Bowl and you've got a mid-defense at best. You've got really up and down and mostly down special teams. I mean, what more does this guy have to do? He won the Super Bowl, drove the success in a year that was supposed to be kind of a regroup year for them.

So I don't know what more the guy could do. And he just does everything right, too, like the leadership on the team. Absolutely. He gets it. He gets everything. He gets legacy. It's awesome. He is the guy.

And I think we all know that after last season and the voting represents that. Obviously, I think the conventional wisdom is that Patrick Holmes is the best player in the world. he is in a tier all his own, and that's why he unanimously got 50 tier one votes. The next step of this is that it does feel like the rumblings and just kind of the shaking of the hierarchy of the position last year is that Joe Burrow may have emerged as that number two guy, and quarterback tiers reflects that.

Mike, he got 49 tier one votes. The distribution was not like that last year. It was kind of mulled with him and Alan and Herbert, and the voting block would seem to indicate that he has separated himself from that kind of second tier. even of other young quarterbacks in the league. Because Josh Allen actually moved up, did a little better. His average vote was better than last year, and he lost ground to Burrow.

Burrow jumped over him. So that felt right to me, doesn't it? It just kind of feels like even the one, okay, there's one vote for Burrow. I love that because Mahom should be alone. And it works out very well. It's very clean. It's very clean. So, yeah, I think it's exactly about what it probably should be, you know.

And the peer-pass component you mentioned is sometimes the most debated part of this, you know, because there's, of course, a lot of these guys at the top can beat you with their legs, too. But there's, I think, a feeling with evidence in the league that eventually it's going to get, the game's going to get reduced down to you having to win from the pocket. The other stuff's going to melt away. And what can you do that as a quarterback when the other team knows what knows you're going to be doing it? I'm going to be right there in this spot. And of course, the off platform and second reaction plays are a part of it. But you've got to be able to do that to be fully respected by everyone. And I think for the most part, these guys in Tier 1 can do that. When you look at the distribution of votes almost as a pie chart, I always think it's funny if you kind of consider different tiers as this is one thing. This is the other thing. Josh Allen is 44 Tier 1 votes. It's like that's all the tools. That's some of the stuff that you've seen.

The six tier 2 votes, in my mind immediately that's, well, I didn't take care of the ball as well, year and there's kind of some hiccups. And those, that one little kernel of doubt being six tier two votes, it actually makes sense when you think about him that way. But obviously he is still firmly in tier one. Absolutely. Yeah. And, you know, of the, I've been doing this for 10 years. And he has been in it, I believe, five years and he's improved every year. He's the only person to do that, you know, over their first five times in the poll to improve every year. So, you know, good for him. And I think if he can, you know, if they, if they, they, the bill as a team can have a little deeper push in the playoffs.

I mean, he'll probably even go higher. The biggest, maybe point of contention, the biggest controversy, the biggest surprise when I was reading through this is to look at the voting distribution for Aaron Rogers and see 30 tier one votes and 20 tier two votes. Yeah. Because forever, as part of this exercise, even when there was that stretch near the end of the McCarthy era, where Rogers fell off a little bit production-wise and their offense wasn't as efficient.

The league unanimously, undeniably believe that Rogers was still one of the best three or four quarterbacks in the league and firmly one of those tier one guys. This is the first time, the first inkling that we have seen from people around the NFL that maybe he is taking a step back. Were you at all surprised at that sentiment when you were talking to people about this? I kind of was. I thought my guys were going to hang in with Rogers and show a little more loyalty for this guy. Through thick and thin, man. They have been on wavering. These guys have been there.

And so if you go before this year, Rogers has been in this every year. So before this year, as Robert said, he got 30 votes in Tier 1, 20 in Tier 2. Before this year, he had 401 votes in Tier 1 and 7 in Tier 2. That's crazy. And so that may not seem wild now because we are only a couple years removed from back-to-back MVP's. But the fact that he was just. unquestionably a tier one quarterback during that little swoon.

And what were those years? 2017, 2018. Yeah, right around there. People were, there were so many people who thought he was gassed. He was 34,

35 years old. People were like, guys, he just kind of lost it. That narrative, I think, has been lost to history because of what happened afterward. But even in this,

no one ever got off of him. And the fact that people are now, I just wonder what that says about how the next couple years are going to unfold. You know, and I wrote about this in the tears piece is it's what happened to Brady at the end of his time in New England. Remember how he really didn't hit the weapons weren't good, but it just didn't look right. Like kind of just eyeball on it from afar, you're like, you know, and you're sort of waiting for these guys when they turn 40, right? Maybe that's it. You get deep enough in age.

He's to that point now where he'll be 40 this year and people are like, all right, now this is when it's supposed to start to go. There's still people that were adamant that he's going to stay up there. I thought the most interesting point, which I actually added like the night before, I was making a few last calls. Rogers is playing 14 games on turf this year. He played four last year. That is interesting to me because as you get older, the pounding, I can just picture some of the injuries he's had where it was in Minnesota or whatever, you know? Yeah. That will be an interesting component to me if he holds up in a tough division with almost all of his games on artificial turf.

Or does he, do we start to see kind of like last year? I know it was the thumb, but is it a calf? Is it a hamstring? Does he just start to break down physically this year? And that's where those 20 votes are coming from in tier two. The Brady voting and the way that that was distributed, there was a question of whether he had lost something. And physically he hadn't.

So when he was dropped into better circumstances, the fact that his body could still get him where he wanted to go allowed him to kind of prove those people wrong. And with Rogers, physically, I don't know if he's fallen off. And if he's more engaged and he has enough around him, which I think the Jets probably do, I think there could be some people in that 20 person block that voted him in Tier 2 who feel a little bit silly at times this season. Or maybe we're giving him too much of the benefit of the doubt and those guys are a year ahead of where the consensus is going to be by the end of this season. Yeah, I kind of think he's going to have a really good year. But I thought one of the points made in the Tier's piece was interesting was that, hey, Brady all those years never relied on his mobility at all. I mean, and Rogers has.

That has been an ace in his, you know, kind of up his sleeve that he could scramble. Even in the last few years, he could get you that 10-yard run, right? He could take off a little bit. He had some good mobility. And so now is that gone? Is he now, is some of his superpowers gone on the second type of plays? And now he'll decline, whereas Brady never had that. So there's less lost for.

him. That was an interesting possible point. I understand the concern about that. I'm not as worried about that part. I think if he's engaged and his arm holds up, then he can still be one of those top tier guys. And we'll find out this year. Herbert rounds out tier one. I can understand the distribution there, 29 tier one votes, 21 tier two votes. I'm like a lot of people in that I understand why some executives and people around the league want to see it. It's more theoretical than it is practical at this point, their team's success. Obviously, he was hurt last year, so that holds him back. I think anybody who's ever listened to the show knows I'm a big supporter of where Justin Herbert

can go, but we haven't seen it all put together this year. And I wouldn't be surprised at the end of this year with Kellyn Moore, with a little better team health, if he gets closer to those other younger guys in part of Tier 1. Yeah, I would think so too. He slid just a tiny bit, but one of the things I looked up, the last two years, they're 28th and combined EPA defense special teams, 28th, okay, with a nice. 19 and 15 record. The four teams that are worst are 51, 84 and 1. So there's a reason why ranking that low, they've still been able to be, you know, a winning team. And I think that reason starts with the guy behind center. He's pretty special. And the people that see him in

person that I talk to, like, oh, we played him this last year. I mean, they're kind of wowed. He is different. I was a camp last week. It's pretty wild how the ball comes out of his hand. I mean, it's, and you don't want to be coaxed. You don't want to be swayed by that too much, you know, the fact, again, that the idea of him and the physical tools overwhelm the reality. I don't think that they do, but I think for some people it might. The one thing I do have a gripe with is an exec that you said that said, I love the toughness, just need to see him win more in pure past situations.

Yeah. His EPA per play on third down, when they just ask him to let it rip, has been one of the things keeping this offense afloat over the last couple years. I think he's been best when placed into pure past situations. What they've done efficiency-wise on early downs is part of what has held them back. So I just think the structure of the offense is one of my bigger concerns, not what he can do when he's forced to carry them on third and seven. Because I think that's exactly what makes him a tier one quarterback is that he's best in those moments, or at least has been so far. Yeah, he's been productive in those situations. I've tried to isolate

statistically what peer passes and doesn't always tell the story. Some of the third down stuff can be weird in a year. But I'm with you. I think that's why he's in tier one with a team that hasn't really done what those other guys in tier ones teams have done. Jaylen Hertz is the first quarterback in tier two. He has the sixth quarterback in these rankings. Were you surprised that he was this high or did you maybe even expect him to have more

tier one votes after last season? He finished with 10 this year. Yeah, I would have been surprised like at mid-season that he was in a climb up this high. But I think by the end, everybody could see those strides he had made as a passer. And obviously they had the team success. So I think it's a perfect spot for him. The Super Bowl was in people's minds. Yeah, yeah.

With, you know, still some questions of some things, just more time on task than anything. But he started out the first year he was in this poll, he was 30th. He had hardly played, right? then he was 20th and now he's 6th. It just feels right. I don't feel like we need to anoint him in Tier 1 yet because as pointed out in the story, he hasn't had as many two-minute offense situations and times when, you know, he had to fight through some adversity of a tough schedule or losing your number one wide out.

I mean, he's got a stacked team and it's been set up really nice for him and he's done everything that he's been asked to do well. So just do it again. I think he does it again. you're going to see him crack into that top tier. All the quotes in here and the distribution, I think, is more than fair. There are two tier three votes. And I get a couple people being like, you know what, it's all the supporting cast,

all the coaching staff. I don't think that's fair, but it's not surprising to see a couple holdovers that believe that. And if we want to see him in more varied situations where the variables change a little bit because we didn't really have to do that last year. So I get everything about the way that people are talking about Joe and Hertz in this situation. Trevor Lawrence firmly up in tier two now. He got 33 tier two votes after jumping from the bottom of tier three. Again, kind of similar to Hertz when you watch what happened last season. I think, all right, I get it. That seems about where he should be right now. Some comebacks that

people saw, big comebacks, you know, against Dallas, obviously in the playoffs against the Chargers. Those get people's attention when the quarterback's pulling you from behind. So, you know, I think he was probably a obviously you have to throw away the Urban Meyer season but I think he was a little disappointing until about halfway through that season

and it seemed to click and now they've done a nice job of building the team around him and he did a great job down the stretch of just be I think kind of coming into his own getting that confidence back

or whatever it was he really does seem to be on his way two yeah three tier one votes which I think is pretty aggressive I understand it A defensive coordinator mentioned this tier that he could see him jumping into Tier 1 this season. And I'm kind of, I'm kind of with that guy. After watching some of those games, you just mentioned the comeback games.

And I was in Jacksonville today and talking to some people there. I don't want to talk too much about it because I think we're going to have a lot of Jags content here over the next couple days as we talk about top 10 offenses, et cetera. But I do see maybe another step coming for him. And it's interesting to see one of the coaches you talk to believe the same thing. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think there's, I'm glad you're going to be talking about them in the next few days because they're sort of a team that is easy to slip through the cracks because of the media market. There's not a lot of buzzer in them. This is a good team.

They're going to be a good team. They're going to be a problem. Yeah. It's, again, I don't want to get too far ahead of ourselves. I feel like there's going to be a lot of Jags talk here because of the shows that we're doing. And I'm with you. Dak Prescott comes in firmly in tier two. He hit 13 tier three votes, which I think.

is probably more than I might have expected. Dak Prescott feels exactly like a tier two quarterback. When we describe a tier two quarterback in this exercise, it's a guy who can carry his team sometimes, but not as consistently. He can handle pure passing situations in doses and or possesses other dimensions that are special enough to elevate him above tier three.

He has a whole or two in his game. That's exactly Dak Prescott. He's one step down from all those other guys, but he is clearly a quarterback who can win games for you often enough. And it makes total. total sense. He is almost the epitome to me of a guy who belongs in this tier. Yeah. And I feel like with most of the guys, almost always in the top two tiers. And there's some exceptions of guys who creep in. But for the most part, I feel like we can go to the Super Bowl with our guy if you're

in the top two tiers. And I feel that about Dak. I feel like you could go to the Super Bowl with Descott. Some of those other guys that are a little lower, you know, I'm not so sure. You might have to have the Ravens defense or something, right? So it's funny that you mentioned that because Matthew Stafford's also in Tier 2. We just saw Matthew Stafford go to the Super Bowl a couple years ago. interesting that he kind of got the benefit of the doubt after last season with the injuries, that most people still believe he's at that level. I kind of agree. I don't think it's that controversial. It is kind of strange to see the benefit of the doubt for Deshaun Watson still. The fact that he got 31 tier votes out of his 50 total votes and comes in 11th on this list,

I wouldn't have been surprised if he had slid a little bit more after the way that he played last year. I think the key to him not sliding more, Robert, was that he only played six games. If there was 10 or 12 games of what happened. And then I think, I don't know if this is part of it, but I feel like people just got tired of even thinking about Deshawn Watson. You know, I don't know if he was really as analyzed or scrutinized as closely. And I felt that in the media, too, like people just didn't even want to talk about them, just with all the stuff that had.

Remember we talked about that last year? Yeah. They are so interesting from a purely football standpoint because that could be a really great team if he comes back in tier one, a really good team. But he could be in tier three. I mean, it'd be one of the, could drag everyone down. And I don't think we really know. I think they are confident that he's going to be the tier oneer. And, you know, we'll see. But this was somebody who was going to be a superstar. And now he's one spot ahead of Kirk Cousins. I mean, I don't know. This is a weird thing to say.

I almost feel like he doesn't belong in tier two because it's almost tier one or tier three to me. I don't see an outcome where he's a pretty good or sometimes very good quarterback because I think some of his issues last year, you go back and watch him were a product of just how uncomfortable he felt in the pocket and his feel for the game seemed to have eroded a little bit. And if that comes back, his physical ability is undeniable. So that probably puts him back in tier one or near the top of the NFL. But if that doesn't come back, then I don't know if he's as reliable as some of these other guys that we see in tier two. So this feels like people hedging their bets between those two outcomes. But I think by the end of this season, it's probably either lower or higher than this. I would be surprised to see him end up in this spot again.

Yeah. I think one of the things that happens is if you have, if you're somewhat established, you're probably not going to a rise or fall more than a tier in a year, right? So he dropped a solid tier. I mean, I mean, from last year, just about, I think he might have been the last guy in tier one last year. So he was almost the last guy in tier two. We'll see that with like a Russell Wilson. He was in tier two. He dropped the tier three. You could certainly make a case that Russell Wilson's a four after last year, but he went down a tier. So maybe that's what it is. And you're right. Maybe he's either a one or a three next year. This exercise is fascinating around certain

players and Kirk Cousins is one of those players because I think you could make an argument that the entire time that you've done this over the last decade, which is essentially Kirk Cousins' time as a struggle in the NFL, it overlaps almost entirely. Kirk Cousins, for most of that stretch, has probably been pretty close to the same guy, but the vacillations are mostly in how he's voted. And the fact that he got 25 tier two votes and 25 tier three votes is just two. perfect. It just is exactly right. It's like you flip a coin and it lands on the edge of the coin. It lands straight up. That's exactly what this feels like with Kirk Cousins. Is the glass half full? Is the glass half empty? That's Kirk Cousins. Yeah. I know the glass is skim milk. That's the only, that's all I know.

The Kirk Cousins glass is, I don't know if it's half full or half empty, but it is skim milk. So he made it into Tier 2 one other time in 2017 with 26 votes in Tier 2 and 24 in Tier 2. three. So, you know, we've been here before. He actually, so in a year ago, though, he only had 14 tier two votes. He was more solid in tier three. That's when I, that was one of the things that surprised me the most because I was like, did we learn something about Kirk Cousins last season? I was like, are people overrating the fact that they won a bunch of games that aren't, you're not going to win, you know, all those close games that weren't they 11 and 0 in one score games? It was ridiculous, whatever it was. But then I thought, then I went and looked on pro football

reference and it's like, okay, he had eight fourth quarter game winning drives. And that's tied for motion of season since 1960. So he gets some credit for that. I'm okay with some of it shifting. Maybe too many shifted into tier three before. Here's why I would think that that actually makes sense. Under Zimmer, and especially in the last couple seasons under Zimmer, they got conservative and run heavy and his kind of prominence within the offense shifted. And you're wondering under Kevin O'Connell, they're throwing the ball a lot more, and we didn't see a fall off in his play. So more was put on his plate, and we saw pretty much the same results. And I think you could make an argument that that is why he belongs closer to the bottom of

tier two than in tier three, because when you give him more, you still get the same type of quarterback play. That's pretty good. You know, I hadn't really looked at that. So I'm looking at Minnesota last year. Remember how I did the Cook Index, how often you pass the ball? early downs in the first, I think, 28 minutes of the game. Minnesota last year was a little bit higher than league average towards the past.

They were 11th pass happiest in that situation. Let's go to 2021, and I bet you're going to be right. And let's see. Do I have to scroll down further for Minnesota? Yep, they were down at 21st. So they moved up 10 spots towards being a little bit more pass-oriented when it was kind of neutral situations early in games. and maybe that's what we're talking about. Yeah, and it's so funny that that might be enough.

That little nudge in one direction or another might be enough to change the characterization of Kirk Cousins around the league. But that's how fragile it is with him, though. It really doesn't take much, even though he's probably been the same guy throughout. He's kind of a guy who lives near the border. So sometimes, you know, sometimes you're north of the border, sometimes you're south of the border. He just kind of can go back and forth without really being that much of a different guy. That's the end of tier two.

We have 12 quarterbacks in the top two tiers. The first guy in tier three is Kyler Murray. I just have no idea what you would do with him. I have to imagine that he was a guy where a lot of the comments, a lot of the votes were kind of all over the place. He had one tier one vote and somehow ended up in the top of tier three. What was just the consensus overall when you guys, when you were just polling people about where Kyler sits right now?

So I thought the feedback on Kyla was going to be way more negative than it was. Interesting. I thought people were going to be all over him. But it kind of felt like he already's taken his lumps. And people have sort of taken stock and said, you know, Arizona's a screwed up place too. Let's not just put this all on Kyler Murray. And I think the one guy who, you know, you talked to enough people who would be out there, but the one guy who put him in Tier 1 was like, look, this was a playoff team recently.

and it wasn't because of their defense. It wasn't because of their great running game. It wasn't because of their offensive line. It wasn't because of their coaching. It's because of that guy. Making plays all over the place. So I think that was a, this was a fair sort of balance. I think top of tier three is fine for him. They didn't take it out on Kyler Murray and say he doesn't, he's not a good leader and a good teammate and put him down in tier four. That would have been disappointing to me. I think this is just a fair knocking him down to the top of the solid starter group. with some concerns over his health. Obviously, he's not 100% healthy,

some concerns over his kind of, you know, approach to the game, some of the professionalism, maturity stuff that's come out. That's there. We have to address that. But yet some real recognition of the fact that, hey, when he's healthy, he's a handful too. And he's not just a runner.

He can pass the ball really well. He was an MVP candidate over the first half of the 2021 season, and when that offense was rolling. and I don't think it's because of the structure of the offense or the things that we're around him. Why this is an important conversation, consideration, conclusion around Kyler Murray is if we get to the end of the year, and this team is four and 13, and they have the number one pick, what you believe about the tier Kyler Murray belongs in is going to say a lot about how the next six months unfold, whether they take a quarterback because they feel like the two guys available at the top of the draft have a clear. a path to tier one. They're actually those type of guys in Kyle or Murray is not. And if you're a team maybe that's considering trading for Kyle or Murray, where do you think he belongs in this discussion? Because you're taking on that contract and you have to decide how much you would want to give up

to go get him. So what the next six months does for the Cairo Murray discussion and where people think he belongs in this hierarchy is going to be absolutely fascinating on multiple different levels. It's a great opportunity for him to kind of refresh, reset a little bit, right? Those narratives about them. There's some truth to them. They were. They put it in his contract and he signed it that he had to do his homework. I mean, that's bad.

And so I think he really has to, I think the bar's set pretty high, he has to really go in there and win these guys over. Because think of all the draft capital that they've amassed there. They want a fresh start in Arizona. All those people do. They're not going to just sign up for a longer term mayor. with, they're not going to hitch their wagon to Kyler Murray if they think it's a losing battle when they have an option to get somebody who they think is going to be a great quarterback, right? So it'll take care of itself.

Other guys in Tier 3, just the guys who make up Tier 3. This is the meat of Tier 3 here. Derek Carr 14th, which that sounds right. I will say, Derek Carr not getting a single tier 4 vote when they really did not play well, throwing the football down the back half of last season, I think is the NFL in general kind of giving Derek Carr the benefit of the doubt, the fact that they still believe he's kind of the same guy he's always been. And the Saints in the contract that they gave him, they clearly believe the same.

If you give him enough, he can still be somebody who can pilot an upper echelon passing game with the right sort of help. And I'm uproachshund. I mean, the back half of the top ten. Yep. And then also just looking at the Raiders and saying they probably weren't doing him a lot of favors, just the way that whole operation's been going and all of that. So, yeah, that's a good point.

I was noticing that, too, when you look at that, the only, so nobody, Deshawn Watson got one four, which is understandable for just playing really terrible. But the top, what, the top 15 guys, he's the only one who got a tier four. So cars near the bottom of that and didn't get any. And I don't think he deserves a four. I think he's better than that. Jared Goff, it's just, it's so right. In fact, that Jared Gough had 33 tier 3 votes in 2022 and 15 tier 4 votes.

And then after last season, it flips. He has the exact same amount of tier 3 votes, but 17 tier 2 votes. But that's exactly right. Because that is what tier 3 quarterbacks are. That's exactly the way that you describe them. They are so dependent on the situation around them that that's how things change. The fulcrum stays the same. There's 33 tier three votes.

But because the offense was better and the play calling was better, it shifts one way or the other. Again, just a perfect encapsulation and representation of what this exercise is, is Jared Goff. When you look at that used car, the lighting is a big key. You go a little bit at night. You don't notice those scratches. You know, it looks pretty good, shiny in the lot. I agree, yeah. And we get into the whole division of credit thing, which is hard anyway.

But some of these guys, Goff's just the perfect example of this, they've been in some really extreme situations. Jared Goff comes into the league with the Jeff Fischer era. The absolute worst situation you could be in. Then in a matter of moments, Sean McVeigh is there. They're investing everywhere. Their offensive lines good. They have girly. It's the best possible situation you could be in. Then you go to Detroit and everyone thinks it's the worst situation you can be in. But then pretty soon, that's a better situation than the Rams are in now. A really, and Ben Johnson this, right? Just like McVeigh, that. It's like golf. can't get the credit.

He can only get so much credit because sometimes situations have been so good that it's siphoning off to the Ben Johnson's to the Sean McPhase. It's a fascinating career. And I think it says so much about the league for that exact reason. And you said the use car looks a little bit different based on the lighting. Ben Johnson, he's that shining sun. That's exactly what he has been for Jared Goff over the last year and a half. Russell Wilson comes in at 16, firmly in Tier 3, 37, Tier 3.

votes. What was just the overall consensus on what happened last year and whether or not it's indicative of what's to come with Russell Wilson? Do people think the Hackett situation was a disaster? Are they optimistic? It can get better with Sean Payton. What did you come back with when you went out and asked people about Russell Wilson and where he's out right now? So it's the biggest one-year drop in the history of quarterback tears. But more importantly, he's dropped three years in a row now. So there's been a subtle decline and then there's been a huge drop. I think people do feel like he is diminished athletically and that he will probably bounce back just because pride and a better situation. And Sean Payton should help him and just help the situation that he'll be better,

but that his days of really threatening for tier one and being a dynamic difference to make her consistently are over. Yeah. And I think that's fair. And even if you can get a little bit better production out of him with Sean Payton there, those sort of circumstance-based improvements, that's what Tier 3 is all about. What we just said about how the lighting changes. So if you need that to get back on track,

then I think a drop like this actually does make some sense. The guys below him, I'm sure that you've heard about it today. In fact that Tuwa was the pilot of one of the most efficient explosive passing games in the NFL for a long stretch of last season. And he has 41 Tier 3 votes. I think is an indication that even with some of those flashes last year, the league is just not convinced that he's the one doing any of the lifting for that Miami offense. Well, everybody gives him credit for being really accurate when he has clean pocket and defined reads to really good receivers. He can really throw the ball accurately.

Everyone does acknowledge that, but they think that it's really got to be rigged up in this. manner for it to look that way. And that when you disrupt the timing and make it a little bit more difficult, that he could fall off fairly quickly. And that if he did not have the truly elite wide receivers, it wouldn't look nearly as good. So yeah, they're not giving him as much credit. I think the first thing he has to do is just play the whole year. Yeah. I think that's a huge component of this thing too. But he's just as extreme as golf situation. When he came into the league, I believe it was Chan Galey who really wanted, they had a plan for Ryan Fitzpatrick. They didn't want to play two of them.

And the personnel in offense, it was all bad. I mean, he couldn't have been in a worse situation early on to do well. And that isn't amazing. It flips now. They're loaded. Mike McDaniels done a great job with him. Tyree Kill and Jayland Wall. I mean, can you do a lot better than that?

I mean, that's about as scary of a combination as you can get at wide receiver. And so they have success, but the credit doesn't go to Tua. He's like some people feel like you're almost in a no-win situation if you're Tua, right? It's like, you don't have any players. Okay, you're bad. You get the players. You're good, but it's the players. I think it's a fair characterization here, though.

Yeah, I do too. I think he is right where he should be because I do think it's circumstance based because a lot of it was point and shoot during the first half of last season and the way that that offense was structured. And the timing part of this I think is correct. I went back and I watched several of their games before visiting the Dolphins a couple days ago because I just wanted to really get a sense. All right, what did that charger game actually look like?

What did that Buffalo game where they actually played okay look like? What did they look like against the Niners when things really kind of went off the rails a little bit in the back half of the last season. I think it's easy to look back and have people's memories of their 2022 year being they were rolling until he got hurt. That's not the case. From weeks 13 until he got hurt for the final time against the Packers, they had the lowest passing success rate in the leak.

He was 30th in EPA per dropback. And the timing aspect of it is exactly right. When the timing was disrupted, he was disrupted. So if the circumstances around him and how cushy those are change, what do you get out of him? We didn't get to see them work through that last year because he got hurt again and then Skylar Thompson's in and it just becomes an entirely different idea. Now we get to see that. We get to see what he looks like with defenses playing that way against them being a little bit more aggressive. They were still explosive last year because teams are almost daring them to take shots down the field,

which is kind of counterintuitive, but they were doing so much with the space afforded them early in the season. When defenses started taking away that space, it changed the way the offense could play. So his second act with this group of skill position players and with Mike McDaniel calling plays, I think is worth watching because it's not as simple as him being healthy or not. We did not see a good version of him down the stretch when defenses started developing a plan for how they wanted to play against this version of the Dolphins. Yep, yep. I think it's all great points and what he has to prove. And I don't feel like there's been a huge pushback on that. It wasn't like Tua got savage in this thing. You know, he's just, you don't interact with enough dolphins fans on social media, I think. Oh, that's probably good for me. I'm not a big. It certainly is good for your health. I stay out of a lot of mention. A couple times I go in there, then I find myself doing a terse reply. I'm like, what are you doing, Sandow? Get out of there.

Jimmy Garoppolo 18th is so right I mean Jimmy Garoppolo is a deep tier 3 quarterback I have nothing to say about that it feels correct Daniel Jones also in here I don't know what to make of this and everything that the people that you polled said about Daniel Jones I think is right

your defensive coordinator said he is a function of the offense I don't think from an arm's standpoint he does a whole lot that's going to scare you I think that's right but the Giants give him that contract and that's my question here. It's not is Daniel Jones a tier three quarterback because I kind of think he is. But can you win with a tier three quarterback taking up the amount of money that he's going to over the next couple years? Yeah.

What's interesting about his contract, if you look at this thing, he's almost exactly tied with Gino Smith. Okay. Almost exact tied. So Daniel Jones's average vote is 2.98 and Gino's 3.00. Gino got the perfect Tier 3 contract from a team standpoint. Three years, $75 million, but the team could move on after a year or two pretty easily. The player gets paid, but no one's just completely all in on, you know, I think the difference with Daniel Jones is probably, hey, that ownership group drafted him, right? There's a little more emotion invested in them.

They've been pulling for him for him for a few years. He ends up getting a much more robust deal. Now, that being said, right now his 40 million a year is the number 11 APY in the league. And it's going to keep going down. And so if you look at the guys on veteran contracts in quarterback tiers, I believe Jones is 17th among them in the quarterback tiers. So if he's the number 11 APY and after a year or two, he's number 14. and then he's and let's just say

instead of it being the number 17 guy in quarterback tiers he's number 15 you're kind of aware it's not that far off I think the contract seemed bigger than it actually is

in the context of quarterback contracts he probably has a low tier two contract or a mid tier two contract would you say among all the contracts is it a solid

tier two just because that middle class of veteran quarterback contracts doesn't really exist We're just seeing it start to kind of form now with the Kirk cousin, excuse me, with the Derek, that's a Freudian slip there, with a new Derek Carr contract and with the deals that Gino and Daniel Jones got. So you're probably right.

And I also think, Daniel Jones is 26. Daniel Jones did not play with Tyler Lockett and D.K. Metcalfe last year. So you could talk yourself into Daniel Jones being a little bit better, but this idea that he is firmly a tier three quarterback and he's garnered this sort of investment from the team. That's why it's just tough to square for me sometimes. If they could have gone back, it would have been nice to have had them on the option, wouldn't it, you know, to just buy yourself a year.

And, you know, I can see why they didn't do it at the time. Or you just tag them and let Sequin walk after the way that all of this is unfolded. Yeah, I would have liked to have tagged them and just seen what's going to happen. I don't think anyone else was going to pay them that kind of money. But here they are. It's not what I would have wanted to do. I don't think it's probably even what they want. wanted to do, but it's not just a felony either.

It's not completely horrific. It's just a little rich. Gino Smith comes in just behind them at 20, makes the single biggest jump anyone made in this list over the last year, which is not surprising. I think people thought he was a stopgap. I don't even know what adjective. A backup.

People thought he was a backup. He was a stopgap starter who was really a backup in the league. And comes in and plays pretty well. Garner's a pretty deserved extent. But there are still people, seven of them who put him in tier four. So was the consensus mostly that it's one year, we just need to see a little bit more before we want to inch him up higher than this? Absolutely. Because there was enough years of not being this, right?

He has to overcome what he's been. And he did. But now you've got to prove another year. You know, everyone's got a year of tape on you, all those sorts of things. I think there was a little decline for him later in the year. I think he got a little bit harder. He saw some limitations offensively in the playoff game. Obviously, they had to play the 49ers.

That's the tough game. But, you know, I didn't get the sense there late in the year that he was elevating them necessarily. So he had a good year, a great year in the context of what he did before. I think this is a perfect spot for him. I would have been okay if he was a little higher if, you know, he had a few fewer tier four votes. But I understand. I get it.

And, you know, he's got to prove it again this year. Justin Fields is just behind him at 21. Justin Fields got 34 tier 3 votes, five tier 2 votes and 11 tier 4 votes. I'll be honest, I'm a little surprised that he was that firmly in tier 3 if pure passing situations have such a factor or such a factor in the way that we're doing this voting.

One of the people that I was talking about this, a personnel person, he was looking at the definitions and he goes, I'm not sure I could call him a solid starter. Isn't that interesting? This guy, I don't know if this guy gave him a four. I can't remember what it was, but it was like the passing limitations in his mind were such

that it was questionable, you know, questionable what he is as a starter. So he has to overcome that. I think everyone likes the talent. I think everyone thinks the mental makeup's really good. I've heard great things about the work that he's putting in and all of that. but there are concerns about the passing part of it. And just is he going to be kind of instinctive enough as a pastor and accurate enough as a pastor to really push up and get into tier two? It's funny that you mentioned that.

The idea of legitimate starter is where you have to be for tier three. It almost feels like he belongs in tier four under the idea that tier four is for guys we just need more information on. He has 25 starts, though. I know, but that's what's strange, because you've got to throw out year one, which I think is totally legitimate. You throw it in the garbage can. But last year was so weird. I just can't remember maybe Josh Allen. But even Josh Allen, it was early.

It was his rookie year where you had the flashes and you had the running ability. But he just has so far to go as a passer. But Fields was so dynamic as a runner last year. I think there are still such big questions about him as a pastor that I just don't know what to do with him in an exercise like this. You know what I think helped him here and why maybe if maybe eight years ago when if I was doing this, maybe Justin Fields is down in tier four and kind of getting the ride off a little bit. This guy can't pass well enough. But we've seen Jalen Hertz. We've seen Josh Allen.

That's a great point. We've seen some guys who we've seen some guys who could hang their hat on being athletes. And they've become more than that. And I don't know. That's somewhat, that's a credit to these players, for sure. It's also a reflection of, I think, better coaching in the league. And we're out of the era for the most part of, this is our offense. You better learn it.

If you don't, you're a bust. You're going to run our offense. You've got to learn our system. No. The Bears, midway through last season or six games, and changed their offense for their quarterback. And so it's maybe giving some of these guys a chance that didn't exist. So maybe we can see a path for Justin Fields because we've seen a couple of other guys walk down that path.

It's a great point. And I think that's totally fair. And if you're going to kind of talk yourself into the optimistic case, the fact that there's been a couple of these over the last few years is how you could get down that road. So he's one of those guys. We're going to know by the end of this year. Those are the bets the bears made, the way that they've surrounded him with this sort of talent. They want to know. And I think we want to know where he's going to belong in a list like this by the end of the season. Rounding out tier three. makes total sense to me. Ryan Tannahill at this stage of his career is probably a little bit deeper into tier three that he's been at times in the past. And all you need to know, the first quote you have about Mack Jones, who's 23rd, you can throw out last year, an offensive coach who called Jones a low level three

said. That's right. I mean, there's really nothing to say about why Mack Jones is a different player than he was when we did this exercise a year ago. Maybe he rises in tier three or gets to the bottom of tier two with the right help now that Bill O'Brien is there. but seeing him in this spot is not the least bit surprising. Getting into Tier 4 and having Brock Purdy be at the top of Tier 4, that is maybe what's a little bit surprising to me.

This guy piloted one of the most efficient offenses in football when he was the starter last year, but he's in Tier 4. In your mind, is this more a product of the lack of time we've gotten to see him? Or do you think it's the voters putting so much on Kyle Shanahan, the skill position, talent, and the offense that this guy was dropped into. So I think it's a combination of these factors. One, you can never throw out when a guy's only played eight games counting playoffs, the college eval, right?

So people have an idea of what his limits are. Then you go into the absolute best possible situation a quarterback can have. Top five defense and then a play action offense that's brilliantly schemed with good skill. And there's a feeling that a lot of quarterbacks could go in and do what he did. And I believe that. I think a lot of quarterbacks. If they had had, you know, a 10 years ago, Josh McCown on their offense, they still go to the playoffs. Would you agree?

I'm just making it up, throwing in names. Ryan Fitzpatrick from a few years ago, they probably could have been somewhat similar, right? So there's nothing about Brock Purdy that people are looking at going, wow, here's how we had to game plan for him, right? There's no, there's none of that. So then you take the brief, it's only, I think, five regular season games, right? And then two plus playoff games. So there's definitely a, hey, he didn't do enough. I think at that point it's just easy to give a guy a four.

You're going to have a lot of people give a guy a four and just say, you know what, I'm undecided. I'm looking at the menu and I like some of the offerings on your menu at your restaurant. But I'm not going to anoint this menu. first time here. And this item's only been on there a little bit. And so it's funny, Sandow, because what the Niners did is what I do. You've eaten with me before. They just ordered everything on the menu. They got Trey Lance. They have Sam Darnold. They got Brock Purdy. That's they, they took my strategy when I can't decide. I just get everything. Yeah. So I think you could flip this around and say,

wow, 24 people are already putting them in tier three or higher. That's pretty good for a guy who was, you know, came into the league how he did and then also got injured, by the way. There's an injury that when I'm doing this polling, it was like I just started the polling since he passed his physical, you know, there's been questions about that too. So that's a, think of that, draft pedigree, only playing a few games, potentially major injury, and then the Kyle Shanahan thing with the same thing with Ben Johnson and Sean McVeigh, where those guys get, those guys, these guys, these guys, take a cut of the check, right?

They're like attacks on the credit the quarterback gets. You can never get full credit being with one of those guys unless you're spectacular. Like Mahomes can get credit with Andy Reid because, wow, just watch them play. These other guys that are kind of, eh, you're not really sure. There's nothing out of structure. It's not like you're going, Brock Purdy, did you see that play? You know, what are your five top Brock Purdy plays from last year? I don't know.

It's a fair characterization, and I honestly think you're right. And then him getting 23 tier three votes after we've seen so little is probably a pretty good nod to him and what he added in that offense. So it seems fair. There's no one on there going, this guy, what a joke, although somebody did say kind of good for him in that situation. If he'd been on any other team, he would have lost more than half his games. That was probably the harshest thing anyone said. But I think there's some fairness to that too. Yeah, this quote from an offensive coach, I think he's right.

When he looked at him, I thought he was a four. But when you watch the kid play, he's an absolute gamer. He has the intangible, the moxie, the want-toe leadership. And I think you can even say, you know, he can make the right throw. He's got a little bit of playmaking gene to him. So it would be interesting to see where he kind of shakes out after the season is over. Everyone below him were either guys who are hanging on in Gardner, Minshu, Baker-Mayfield, players like that, or guys that we've seen to see more of.

Kenny Pickett, Jordan, Love, Desmond Ritter, Sam, howl, as the guys who, round out tier four here. Yeah, I love the distribution for Jordan Love and Sam Hal and Desmer. They're like almost unanimously in tier four, which is not enough information. No one's saying these guys are terrible. It's just, you know, they're kind of in here because they've played some. They've at least played a game, right? So I put them in there.

It's interesting to talk about to see if anybody just absolutely loves them. But for the most part, we've got to watch them. Taking a step back from the list, just big picture discussion here. The most surprising kind of nugget realization thing you on earth going through the process this year. I think there's a couple, well, Kurt Cousins moving up was a surprise to me. I don't know if that's an unearthing thing. The last minute revelation of all those turf games for Rogers was a real nugget for me. That was just one of those where I was like, oh, geez, because I've been on the Rogers train.

I think bigger picture, the idea that really it's hard to get, it's going to be harder and harder to get in the top two tiers if you can't operate off platform and off schedule. I think that is the way the league is going. Makes total sense, though. But the definitions that you use, I think that's right. But 10 years ago, you'd see Breeze, Peyton Manning, it'd be Philip Rivers. There'd be a different type of tier one quarterback more. Sure. And I feel like just about all of these guys have a plan B.

And so when we talk about, God, is Jared Goff underrated? Well, he's got one pitch. I think it's the way that you transcend the structure. The way that you transcend what's around you on offense. With the previous golden age of quarterbacks, that was decision making. That was processing.

That was how quickly you played the game. Now I think it's what you can. do athletically. And Joe Burrow, I think, is a little bit of an outlier there in the way that he plays, but even he's got a little bit of a playmaking gene to him. So I think no matter of the era, the ways that we define tier one quarterback says, how do you rise above and beyond what is around you? And the answer to that and how we frame that is different with this group of quarterbacks

and this generation of quarterbacks than it wasn't a previous one. With the same theme, though, I think of in those peer passing situations, you still got to be able to do it. And that is the constant thread through all of them to me. Anybody when you talk to people and even when you got to the end of the 50 votes where you thought, really? Like this is really how the league sees this guy where your opinion of him or just the way that you've experienced someone is a little bit removed from what the consensus was? The 20 tier two votes for Rogers is one. I'm just scanning through this. It's amazing. Maybe I spend two. much time in the world of these voters.

I said what I'm talking to all the time. Like, I always finish the thing and think it feels right. I agree. I tend to agree. I think that Justin Herbert getting 21 tier two votes, that to me feels like it's probably an overreaction to him being hurt for most of last season and the offense being hurt. I think that that's going to seem silly when you look back out of it at the end of this year, that it was 21.

And even something that I think is going to be a huge change at the end of this season, Like I think Trevor Lawrence having 14 tier three votes is just very silly to me, but based on the way that he played last year. But even that, it's one year's starter. I get it. So even the stuff that I don't necessarily agree with, I can understand why some people believe it. I guess I would say one of the biggest surprises to me is that Kyler Murray didn't get docked more. I think he was really on the ropes. His career spent on the ropes with all that stuff that was in his contract and just, you know, he's rubbed people the wrong way.

I was anticipating more of a wave of negativity on him and that he might really drop down and didn't get that. So that was a little surprising. I was there last week and talking to people there and coaches in the building. They're really happy with what they've gotten from him so far, how engaged he's been, how curious he's been, you know, how involved he's been in just some of the ideas and the construction of the offense. So maybe that's a story they have to tell themselves at this stage just because they've given. given him that contract, but it didn't seem like they were overcompensating for anything. And it really did feel like that has been the experience with people in the building so far. I think they've probably figured out that there's different ways to reach different players

and different age of players. I think the embracing is what needs to be done for Cather Murray. And it doesn't guarantee success. But I think doing a hardline approach publicly, They tried that with the contract, right? I mean, I don't think that's what's needed right now. I don't think it's tough love necessarily that's needed. No, he's got to be accountable. But if you noticed right away, they went to the statue unveiling, right? When he was honored for his college exploits, they were there.

I thought that was conspicuous. Like, I think they've gone out of their way at every public turn to kind of love him up in a way that you couldn't picture a Bill Belichick doing it wouldn't be his way of doing it but I think they've tried to sort of reach him in a different

more modern way in hopes that that's what it will be that sort of brings him in as opposed to you know a more rigid hey we're going to do it you want to catch a train you want to get on the bus you better be here

come on pal Yeah, Kyler's just one of the 53 here. Hey, if Kyler retired and I went away, the league would go on. That's not what they're doing. They are saying, oh, this guy's great. Yeah, we're at a statue unveiling. That's been conspicuous to me from day one. And by the way, they hold a bunch of picks next year

and may draft somebody else and get rid of them. But in the meantime, they're going to really put their arms around him and I think see if he responds. Yeah, because what's the downside? let's say you don't get the number one pick. Let's just say you don't have a pick in the top five. Somehow they're better than we thought they were going to be because he plays great. Somehow the Texans are better.

They have the ninth and 11th picks and Kyle would play so well that they want to keep wrong with them. You want to leave that option open. So you might as well do everything you can to foster that relationship in the short term because what's the downside? You get to the end of the year. You're shitty. You have the number one pick. You say, oh, you know what? This was okay.

It was better than we thought it was going to be, but we're going to go in a different direction. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so we'll see. I think they're a really fun situation for the next two years, not so much this year, but for the next two years because Katter may not even play hardly this year. We'll see. And that's another consideration is how much is he going to play because they don't want that potential timeline to unfold where they win more games and they think that they should. Mike Sando, always great to do this with you another year of quarterback tiers.

Needless to say, if you guys have not read the quarterback tier's piece, you can do that at the ass. athletic, it is available to you. It is a monumental undertaking every single year that our guy takes on. And it's something. I always enjoy digging into it. I think that there are some great insights, great revelations. It says so much about the state of the league every single summer. So it almost feels like a necessary tradition. Like in order for us to really get the season started, we have to have this conversation and we have to unveil that year's version of quarterback tears. So Mike, thank you very, very much. And people, if they are not already listening, can check you out on the Football GM podcast on this feed on Thursdays. You're back. You and Randy are back and back at it. We are back at it. We had a show last week and we'll be gearing up and shoot a couple of these ones coming up. I'll be on the road. So you know how that's that is, you know, ducking into some place to record them, but we always enjoy it. And I don't know, I don't know. How many years have we been doing the football gym? It's been a couple years. This is your third year. It's our third year. Yeah. I just love it. I love it.

Love the conversations we have and love coming on here. And hopefully not too much time goes by before we get to do it again. Absolutely. Football Jam will be coming your way weekly every single week during the NFL season. I don't want to say which day. I know which day, but I don't want to lock ourselves into it before we need to. There's still a lot to be figured out between now and then. So very exciting stuff.

Please check out everything else that we have on this feed. Tomorrow we will be visiting with our good buddy Bill Barnwell. Very excited about that. Mike and Randy will be there on Thursday. And then Nate is back on Friday. So please be sure to check that out. And just a quick reminder, we're going to having a Saturday show every Saturday over the next four weeks.

We're going to be doing check-ins from the road, all the different training camps that I visited. If you had missed last Saturday's show, had conversations with our Rams, chargers, and Cowboys Beatwriters from the West Coast Swing. This weekend will be the southeast going to a couple of different camps down here. So please be on the lookout for those Saturday shows in addition to all the other normally scheduled, regularly scheduled programming on the athletic football show. For now, that's all we got. I appreciate you guys. We'll talk to you soon.

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