The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - 5 lessons from studying the NFL’s best offenses

Episode Date: June 4, 2021

What team would be the best fit for Julio Jones? Robert and Nate weigh in and discuss what it will take to land the wide receiver. Then they dive into five key lessons they’ve learned from studying the NFL’s best offenses. Hear what they have to say about an explosive run game, the ability to create at the quarterback position and more.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays, joining me today. It's my good friend Nate Tyson. Nate, how you doing, buddy? I'm doing well. I had no draft prep for it feels like the first time since the season added. Like we had the normal draft and then we had our little athletic draft.

So it's like, okay, now we're back to just like, okay, encouraging each other's opinions as opposed to maybe dragging each other down. I think drag each other down every once in a while was a good thing. We may do, I don't think we're going to do a draft next week, but I think we are going to do some sort of ranking superlative with coaches. A lot of people have asked for that, honestly, after we did the player draft podcast, people said or you can do something similar with front offices or coaches. And I said, you know what? That is a good idea because I'm out of ideas.

So I appreciate you letting me have that one. So I think we're going to do something like that next week. Today, though, we're going to talk about Julio Jones in a second because we haven't really done that on the show. But after that, we're going to do something that. I feel like taps into one of my favorite conversations or thought exercises associated with the NFL. One of my favorite things to do every spring is talk to coaches about what they're watching. You know this as somebody who was a quality control guy for a while. A lot of times the offseason is on projects.

So a coach or a staff will go watch every play action pass that the best play action pass team did or every red zone snap from the best red zone team. I remember talking to an offensive play caller about watching, he watched all of the Titans play action passes, just as a way to get a sense of, okay, why are they good at this? And I love that as an exercise. So that's kind of what we did. We went back and watched the best offenses in the league over the last couple days, probably too much work for June if we're being honest with each other. But we went back and I did the same sort of thing. It was focused.

I watched every Titans play action pass. I watched every bill's this situation. every brown certain situations, just to get a sense. And we wanted to talk about the lessons we learned from that process. So we went through something that most coaches go through, and I thought that distilling that would be illuminating. And a really fun way to talk about the best teams in the league last season and what that might mean moving forward.

Before we do that, we have not really talked about Julio on this show. Our content has kind of been removed from the news cycle over the last couple weeks, which has been on purpose because there's usually not a news cycle. at this time of year. But he is a massive name. There's a ton of interest, obviously, and there should be. So I wanted to ask you, is there a spot you think makes the most sense for him or a spot you think he should go and are those the same?

Oh, man. Oh, I mean, my heart, my heart is saying the 49ers. Like it just, it just, yes, yes. Like all heart of all hearts right there. You know, it's with Julio, it's, we talk about it. It's like the top tier guys are scheme proof. So it's like, I kind of want to see them everywhere because there's just so much fun to picture, Julio here or Julio here. But if I heart and heart, heart, heart of hearts, I would say the 49ers or the Packers, like, ideally, like just like I just want to see that.

And the 49ers, of course, makes so much sense with Kyle Shane and being there. But then, you know, Titans makes a lot of sense as well, just with what they have is dearth of need. But it's, it's, it's, it's, or dearth of talent in that position, the need there. But it's one of those things where it's like, my brain tells me some things. And then it's like, well, are they going to do that? And it's more like, I just want to see it. like NBA, almost becoming an NBA fan where it's just like these, the superstars change every year or two years and you get to actually get to see all

the configurations of all these players and stuff. I kind of want that to happen a little bit with Julio. Packers is, I didn't even think about that. I mean, that would be awesome because he's essentially just a supercharged version of all of the other outside receivers they have except for Devonte. He's just MVS cranked up to like 15 is what Julio Jones is. So that would be awesome to watch. I think the Titans makes the most.

sense from a football level, you can just see it. I mean, he fits what they do. Vertical shots, play action. I mean, we'll talk about this. They run a concept that's essentially a bench route from the outside receiver and an over from the guy on the backside. Julio running that bench is just vertical and out. That's what Julio does. I mean, it's not even difficult to imagine him in that offense.

And I also think in terms of the logistics of it, I know they don't have the cap room. We've got like $3 million in space. And they don't have a lot of levers to pull either. I was looking at ways they could save money. There are no real obvious cuts there. They would really have to borrow from the bank of Ryan Tannahill. I think his base salary is $24.5 million. Do you want to be doing that?

Ryan Tannahill is like 32 years old. I mean, that's something that that's a breaking case for emergency thing. But I think the Titans are in a breaking case for emergency place. Because with that Tannenhill contract, with the Henry contract, they're in win now mode, baby. I mean, they did that to try to pry open this championship run that they could have. And I think that they've gotten worse by losing Corey Davis, by losing John O'Smith, not the most important pieces on their team, but incremental steps back on offense for them.

And I think that Julio solves that. He solves that in a big way. The money is a question because they have urgency. I won't call them desperate. Because they have some urgency to do this, maybe there's a chance they're willing to give up more draft capital if Atlanta takes a portion of the salary. And I think that's going to be the sliding scale, right? There aren't that many teams that can fit the $15 million base under their cap right now.

Is Atlanta willing to take a little bit of that back to them if they can get a better pick from somebody that doesn't have the wiggle room right now? So I think Tennessee makes the most sense from a football perspective. I mean, if you're the Jags, you got $30 million, $39 million in space, send Chanel back. it like let it just say it in a little bit of a sweetener because that regime didn't pick him all of that so i think those two makes sense i mean i think that the 49ers is a really really fun one they have the money also the 49ers of a 25 million dollar lever to pull if they want to they can release garuplo

anytime yeah and it changed this entire thing i know that's not they would be doing him really wrong there but again that's an option for them so if they really want a guy like cullio and i think with a 49ers, it's a couple different considerations. He's very different than the other guys that they have. So synergy is great. Yes. And so with those three together, you can see it. But they don't have three guys on the field together very often.

I mean, I want to say they were in 11 personnel on like 55% of their snaps last year. It was the second lowest rate in the league. I think Tennessee was number one. And as soon as funny. But they have a glaring, glaring need of that other receiver spot with the Niners, having Samuel and. and you can Julio together in the field. I mean, that's awesome.

That's an incredible complimentary group, but they just don't play like that very often. So which guy is going to lose time? Do you want to block one of their developments by having Julio get some of those snaps? I think those are the considerations you have to take into account. And also this is another added benefit of going young at quarterback is all of a sudden you get more wiggle room to work with.

That's the one little fun. I know you trade up first rounders for him, but it's like, hey, you get a young guy that's a stud. It's like, wow, we can, we have a lot more flexibility to do things like, I don't know, adding Julio Jones start receiving core. I do. That's exactly why I was excited about it with the 49ers. It's just that synergy with those guys.

Like, even with Debo Samuel turning into this kind of, I don't want to say gadget guy because that, that's almost like a slur. But like a just all around, all around weapon, because I don't want to say Swiss Army. No, I have because, yeah, but it's like he just does all that kind of stuff. So it's kind of, man, it's just fun because now Ayyuk doesn't have to be the guy. He can still develop a long, but he could take a leap even like he doesn't have to take a leap. So when it gradually progresses, it's like, ooh, that's really fun. He doesn't have as much on his plate. And that's just that makes sense.

Julio at the X, you got Iyuk, the Z, you got Debo moving around, Z that can move inside. It's like, oh, my God, that's some fun stuff. So just more creativity that they can do. That's why it just makes so much sense. And then the Packers is just like you said. It's just like, that's just a supercharged version. And Devante Adams, Aaron Rogers and Julio Jones on the field at the same time would just be like just football Norvana.

And then one of the coolest parts about him, though, is that he's, Julio's a space creator. Like the fact that he can be, he's a clear out guy still at age 32 because he has that vertical pushability. And that's why with the Niners, it makes sense because he creates space for those other guys. I mean, I was looking at some of the numbers. I think Josh Hermzmeyer posted on the other. day. His miles per hour, Julio's even last year,

and over the last five years, it hasn't diminished at all. He is still as fast as he's ever been when he's healthy. And it's just crazy that you have a 220-pound guy who can be your vertical option within that offense. And with the Niners and those two other guys, that's what he would be. Yep.

Well, that's what, it's so funny when I've told the story a few times, but just different versions of it or different parts of the same meeting when Kyle Shanahan came to the Falcon. he was shown his core plays and why he, I, why each position he likes certain guys, because I like these plays. So this is why.

So he's showing the receivers. He's like, I like this at X. I like this at Z. So he showed, you know, Andre Johnson at X. And then he just started showing all these,

Washington clips and going like, hey, I really love this concept, play action concept, uh, blaze and all this stuff. And we have the, you know,

the glance, the drift route, the post. And he's shown it, showing it, and he goes, then someone's like, oh,

so what's your idealized version of having the, like, right now being the top the guy that takes the top off and he goes without missy be uh shanahananan goes Julio and then are like okay we talk talk and then we're talking about the next route like the dig the drift and he's like so who's your idealized version of this and he goes Julio you know he's like he goes that's what's really nice about having a guy like Julio I don't need one of the guys I just have him everybody else can figure out the other roles he does everything and it's great and that's what the type of guy can do it's going to be awesome it's funny too like you're

just saying, oh, the Titans, like, what's so exciting, like, seeing them in that type of offense. And it's like, that's why we're excited to see Julio with Arthur Smith. Exactly. I know. That's why it's such a bummer. It's so weird. It's like, I know, but I feel like it's like, hey, we might still get to see it. So I know.

I'm curious to see where Julio ends up because it's just like, I watched the last game he played last year. He missed some time. He played this game against the Saints. And then he missed the rest of the season. It's like, dude, he's still there. He's still Julio. It's like he's pulling away from everybody. He looks like a monster on every snake.

app and it's like yeah okay that you're fine okay if you're worried about getting 90% of hollio it's it's 90% of julio jones who's going to be a monster this is a weird thing to say but i think people don't appreciate how good he is like i just maybe this is just me being war my brain being warped by the internet and just a couple stray takes that aren't actually indicative of the overall conventional wisdom about him i don't think people understand how good he is at football and the fact that even as recently as two years ago in 2019, I think he was still the best receiver in the league.

Yeah. That guy is unlike any other receiver I have ever seen. We talked about it with Matt Ryan a little bit. I can't remember a 220. I contributed this the other day. There have been five guys in the last 20 years that were at least 6.3-220 and read sub 435 at the combine. Two of them are D.K. McCaff and Julio Jones.

The difference between those two guys is that Julio moves and stops and starts like a six foot 190 pound slot receiver his ability to throttle down and run those comebacks and the blazeouts and all of that stuff i've never seen someone with that skill set since i've been paying attention to the nfl calvin johnson was obviously a monster but it was different it wasn't like that with the precision that hulio plays the position like and again i just don't think people are appreciating that unicorn ever set of skills enough. He to me is the most talented

receiver I have watched in the post Randy Moss era when it comes to all the little things he does. I think that Calvin Johnson can be a more physically dominant force than Julio Jones is just because of the size. But when you're talking about all the buckets, I don't think there's

anybody like Julia that I have watched in the past five to eight years. What you're talking about the throttle down stuff, that's the difference. It's the coming in the explosiveness in and out of breaks. Yes. It's startling at times.

It looks fake because you underappreciate it until you start seeing other guys doing the same routes he does. And then you're like, oh, that looks different. That guy is like doesn't fire out full speed after like running an 18, 20 yard route, stopping on a dime and then coming out of the break at full speed. Like he didn't even stop. And it's like that's kind of stuff is just so rare. And like you said, I'm so glad you said post-Rady Mossboro because I was like,

I was like, all right, tread carefully here. But no, you're right. I mean, since, since Randy's gone, I mean, who goes? He's the unicorn. It's a generational talent. Like, we just got, I mean, I can't believe we're talking like this at 32 years old. It's not like he's 38. Like, it's like he still has gas in a tank and it's that top tier gas that, I mean, it really is.

He's something else. What would you give up for him if you were a contender with this base? Would you give him a first round pick for him right now? I would give up a little. If I knew a real contending team, like, If you're Green Bay and you're willing to move the money around. Yeah. Yeah.

Because that pick is going to be, say it's like the 28th pick, you know, somewhere in that range. If you're expecting to be in the final four, which the Packers are, it's like, that's worth it. I mean, because that's a total needle mover. And you can appease your quarterback a little bit too. Well, that's my thought is that like, all right. So Rogers is it a $37 million cap number right now. You do some magic. You give him an extension.

You push some money out. You do the same thing with Devante. at 16.8 right now. The type of stuff they don't typically want to do. That's what it would require. It would require stepping outside of themselves with their financial habits in a similar way to what the bucks did

to get all their guys back and in a way that Rogers wants. I mean, this is the type of thing he's been asking for us to do this. So I don't know. That's, I think it's pie in the sky type stuff, but that's the type of team where just do it. Just do it.

This is the way that you pry open this thing and finally get it over the top. Yeah. It's a star. It's like one of the stars on stars, even at this age. Yeah, it's not like, oh, he's a good player that you hope he could become a star. It's like, no, he's a star. These are the guys you go after.

All right. So let's get to our lessons here. We came up with five. The way I did is I watched some teams and then I tried to broaden the lessons and combine some of them and everything else. So we landed on five. So I want you to start us off. When you watch the best offenses in the NFL over the last week, What was the first takeaway that you had?

Yeah. And the one I'm going to start with is not only is just the run game as important as ever. And it's not just like an efficiency thing. I think what's kind of turning is explosiveness. His teams are really, that's what you're trying to create is explosiveness throughout your entire offense, but really in the run game as well. If we're not going to run the ball 25 times anymore, we're going to run it 15 to 17. It's like we got to start gaining more than four yards on first down. We got to make it six yards.

And a way in a way to do that is, having a change them. And what I mean by that is so the meta right now and football is turning every every year. It's becoming more and more outside zones. Shanahan Kubiak, those type outskirts teams. Everyone's running it. I mean, zone's never going to go away. But now who majors in it is becoming more and more prevalent around the league. The problem when you do that, when it becomes the meta, the major is the counters start happening on defense. The fronts start changing. The looks start changing special rules start happening and you see the evolution this is the best part about football the evolution on both sides the arms race that happens so let's just think about that Patriots ram super

ball just think about that kind of back and forth with the six one widening out that's what you see with those sorts of fronts is you see those guys widen and widen and widen so you can't get to the edge on those plays it's that back and forth always the angles are messed up so it just becomes a wash battle where it's just guys walking down the line and it's like you hope the runnerback sees the one hole that's on the backside or something like that. And even with that, it's an arms race or how many guys

you can put up along the line of scrimmage. Oh, who's going to play first? Yeah, one guy just pops. You just wait for one bubble to pop somewhere.

And that, even with the ramps, because even when they came back the next year, they were still having some issues because defense are starting to copy that. And they came to some fun plays. Like they started around

duo a little bit more, but they also ran, and I wasn't even going to talk about the ramps here, but it's great. It's perfect. They ran this other play that's been one of my favorites

to watch the last couple years is this wineback play where they use cup or woods as the lead blocker. And I love it. I love it. But it's a, what they're doing is you're just playing on their zone steps and getting the whole defense to flow with it.

And then a windback is it's like zone blocking counter basically. That's there's no pullers, but it's counter. And that's the best way I can describe it. And it's a de facto pull by pulling that guy back across the formation. It is. It's achieving the same thing to a certain extent. But without a guard,

it's a single polar instead of two polars. That's a good way to look at it. And it's usually it's a tight. or a fullback or something leading with that. And the Rams, they use Cooper Cup and Robert Woods in such a fun way as blockers. They have those guys as the polar as like a weed blocker. And it's awesome. It's such a fun play.

I do think it's going to become more prevalent around the league. But also just other teams, the 49ers, they'd be running more in trap and gap schemes. And this is just, I mean, it started two years ago. But last year, Shanahan started leaning heavily into it where it's kind of becoming like, whoa, it's like 50-50. They are seeing zone or some trap or gap scheme now. And that's one changeup that's happening. Really, it's a fastball 1A1B.

You got the Titans and Packers. Zone, Zone, Zone, they have split zone that they like to run. They start going to Duo a little bit more once teams started countering them. We talked about it on this podcast before was the Titans, you know, they started running, duo, I believe it was against the Texans late in the season. And there's a couple more like after that, they lean more into it. And even the Bucks, the Super Bowl champion bucks, they really only have three runs. They run inside zone.

They run split zone. And they're on duo. But that's the same thing. It's like a pitcher having three really good. good pitches and going like you know why I'm going to bring you but you have to pick which ones or rock paper scissors battle and that's the one fun thing that's why those counters are so great right and that's why they had that gash run in the Super Bowl is like even if you have those three if you go outside of those three one time it's going to be that monster play that you need if you're only

running the ball 20 times again yep and that's where that change up comes in that's a heavy heavy change up and this is on the negative side I know we're talking about like this is one of the top offense is don't get me wrong but like the chief sometimes had some struggles in the run game And one of their things that just what I noticed throughout the year because I watch the chiefs every week because I just want to watch Patrick Mahomes is that they, they spread everybody out. Kelsey is a de facto receiver. You know, he's not even in line sometimes.

You know, it's like they're basically going four wides out of 11 personnel. And what happens is you limit your run game that you can do in that. It's usually in the NFL, it's draw or zone. I mean, that's really what's going to come down to. And I would see a lot of times that defenses were like, okay, we'll spread our defense out. And we'll let you have that three to five yard gain. we're fine with it. As long as Mahomes is not DM a homes,

well, at CEH gets, gets, get his couple yards. I actually think that's why some of the Orlando Brown and Humphrey, in the Humphrey pick from Oklahoma at center, it's to get those pullers because I do think they're just going to maybe lean

into some different types of runs out of these spread formations. So I do think that's why they're trying to find their change up because they became so predictable in my, in my eyes that it was like, man, I just know what run. They're going to run. They're going to run inside zone right here.

And defenses are like, yeah, that's what they're going to do. It's like, We'll take that over Mahalms shredding us for 40 yards of pop. So I think that's really what they're going to lean into too, is that I think just that's what I took away from watching some of these really good offenses. And the Saints, like, that's one of my favorite run games to watch is because they have that change up always. They run a little bit of everything and they run it really well.

And that's always just really fun to watch. So I do think just a change ups are going to become more developed, especially with these teams that are going to become all running the same looks or similar looks with the outside zone stuff coming around the league. what is your favorite way that the Saints kind of keep teams on their toes? Because I look today, I was surprised that they were first in rushing DVA last year. It makes sense. I mean, they're so well coached

and they do everything so well every year. But I was looking at the rankings. I expected Baltimore or Cleveland even or team like that. When I saw New Orleans, I was like, man, again. It's just every single year. It feels like they're right there. What is your favorite thing that they do?

Okay, so like a good way how they use Taysom Hill is they're going to make you they're going to get you in the personnel they want you to be in. They did it two years ago. He's a personnel dictator. That's exactly what he is and always has been. He is. And that's what it's,

that's his advantage. I know he's a freak athlete, but dictating what personnel you want. The one I remember, this is two years ago, it's not last year, but they were playing the 49ers during the season. And they had Tayson Hill in there.

And the 49ers were matching with sub personnel, with nickel, nickel personnel. And so the Saints are basically in 12th. They're in base personnel, base offensive personnel. And they just ran duo. So they just were just,

pounding it down the middle just over and over and over. That's what I like that they do. They don't run too much crazy stuff. They just get the perfect personnel groupings. And then they'll do one shift in motion. And they run duo really well. So of course, I'm going to love it.

But also they just run a little bit of everything. They'll run a splits on. They'll get you leaning. They'll run three plays out of the same look. And then they'll have a play action off of it. They just tie everything together. And I think why younger guys in that offense have a little bit of issue is, yeah, it's the same play.

but then they'll window dress it and so it gets called something completely different. So guys I think are just going like, Drew Brees can do it because he's ran the offense for a decade. But so many guys I think are just like, okay, I'm lining up here in the slot. I'm motioning over because how it's old,

old school terminology. He's also maniacal with the details. He like, it has to be every inch and like you listen to, you talk to guys there. Peyton, he's famous about he'll go onto the field and like drop his hat and like a specific place on the field.

And like, it's cool. It's to the inch. They are really, really particular about that stuff. I can understand why someone not used to that level of detail might have a little bit of a hard time acclimating to what that's like. Yep. And I just think that's what it is.

It's just that window dressing they do and the detail of it. That's such a great point. That's what it is. They're just so well coached. That's why you watch the Saints. You always know what they're trying to get done because it's just everybody's doing it the proper depth. Everybody's lined up perfectly.

And there's Drew Brees at, well, now retired RIP. but him going to the right guy every single time. So it's such easy tape to watch because you know it's always being correct. But that's why I love about it. I still say they if you want to watch a goal line offense for the last like three, four years, just watch Saints goal line offense and short yard offense. Statistically, they go up and down, but they just do a lot of good sound running scheme. And they run a little bit of everything.

And they just know how to get you how they want you. If you're going to tighten up on duo, they're going to run toss to Alvin Kamar. You know, like they just, they just know the, they just know every changeup. So the run that they have of that week, their staple of that week, they know what the changeup's going to be. And Sean Payton is one of the best play callers. I mean, right now and probably in the last decade, he knows when to call it. So it's just fun stuff.

The Saints are just such a fun offense to watch. It's been fun watching guys who are sort of zone evangelists go away from it, right? And I remember talking to, I talked to John Benton, who's now the offensive line coach for the Jets, but he was with the 49ers. And it was before they played the chiefs in the Super Bowl. And I was talking about some of the little wrinkles that Shanahan throws. And I think I've told the story before. But we were talking about when they started incorporating more of those power gap runs into the offense.

And he told me that it was the Pittsburgh game of that 2019 season. It was probably week five, six. Because Pittsburgh's outside linebackers play so, so wide that they just didn't think that they could run their outside zone against that sort of look. So if they're widening, what makes sense? to do. Pull guys and let that with work against them because you want to kick them out anyway. So if they're already wider, that's why those plays start to work. And I think that the changeup eventually became just a part of the fabric of the offense.

And now John Benton's in New York with the Jets. You'd assume they have that baseline of, all right, we know if they're going to start doing this, we have this basket of now the gap runs that LaFleur and Benton ran with the with the nine In Cleveland, Stefansky, if you look at what they did in Minnesota the year before he got there, zone, zone, zone, and they crushed people with it. I mean, that offense was fun, and Dalvin Cook was cooking. And then you bring in Bill Callahan, who's from a very different background,

a more varied background, and you see all the gap and power runs that are folding in, because it's just the best way to keep your running game explosive. Like you said, it's the best way to get the bang for your buck if you're just harder. This is such a simple way to put it. It just makes you harder to defend. And that may seem like a simple way to talk about it,

but so many teams, especially with the zone game, because a lot of coaches that are from that background think that unless you are 100% dedicated to it, it's going to fall short. And that's why watching people mix it up a little bit and understanding that we don't have to do this all the time. We know how to do it. We're not going to lose the efficiency of it

by going to a couple different sorts of running plays. And I think it's a great point. It's been really fun to watch that change happen over the last couple of years. And just what you're speaking to with the Steelers stuff, the fronts that we're going to see more and more, we're getting back into bare fronts and the Titan mint fronts that we've talked about endlessly on this show. And when you get a head up nose and guys covered,

it's so hard. Everything just washes down. Like we talked about the 6-1 stuff. But in those fronts, the angles on gap stuff, especially counter, is just so good. And counter got its name because it's, it's a counterplay. It's a change up. So it's,

but that's, you're going to see more and more pullers because just the angles are so much better for these teams. Because you can't get double teams throughout the lake. There's, it's just so hard to get double teams. No cloth. No cloth. I was watching.

I can't who I was watching yesterday. I think it was the Titans. And I was watching there was a couple teams that were running those tight fronts against and they were trying to run doing it. It's just like, you don't have the double teams. They're just the numbers aren't there. It's so hard to run against.

if you're not creating angles or creating an ability to have movement in some other way. And I think you're right. There's just going to be more and more of that. So speaking of the Titans, my first lesson here is sort of Titan-specific, but it talks about the league more broadly. The Titans are, their play-action game is an NFL outlier. It's very, very different than what a lot of other play-action offenses in the NFL look like, and it's arguably the best one.

And watching them compared to some of the others is a reminder that play action is ultra-efficient We know that. I am the ultimate preacher of the play action gospel here. But I think that it's watching the offenses that I did really was a window into understanding that there are different ways to do this. There are different ways to incorporate it into who you are and who you want to be. And with the Titans, the thing that really jumped out. And this is how this stuff happens, just to give you kind of a window in the process.

It's really fun. So I said, all right, I'm going to watch every explosive 10 or more yard Titans play action completion. So I just, and there's a service that does that. It's true media. It's great. You can organize it.

It's really, really useful. So I start watching them all. And as I'm watching it, I think, man, they're in max protection all the time. Like these are a lot of two man routes

with both of the wide receivers. And so then I start playing with the filters. It's like, all right, how many times compared to other teams are there using six guys in protection? And it's six is a lot because it does, include the running back in those plays because he's not actually protecting.

So it's always at least a tight end or a fullback. I was like, oh, man, more than anyone else. How many times is it seven? How many times is it eight? And so you look at the numbers. They use six to eight guys in protection on play action on 77% of their play action attempts last season, which was the highest in the league by a lot. And I, because I wanted the percentage because I wanted to know it wasn't just a volume thing

because they used so much play action. For example, just for some context here, the Browns did it on a hundred, the Browns had 226 play action plays, 81 of them only, had six to eight guys in protection. The Chargers used it 55.8% of the time. The Niners, another team we associate with a lot of heavy personnel, 61% of the time compared to 77 for Tennessee. They're an outlier.

And when you watch that play action offense, it's so interesting to see that approach, where they have made a declaration that it is more important for us to have the bodies to protect and attack you with two guys. We think that is the best way to do this and it consistently works for them. And why I think them compared to the Browns is so interesting is that in my mind I thought is it because they're in 12 and 21 and all these heavy personnel packages all the time. Do other teams that line up like that use these sorts of protection?

as consistently. The answer is no. The Browns ran more play action throws out of 13 personnel than any other team in the league, and they're not even close to the Titans. Because what the Browns are doing in their play action approach is saying, we're going to have all these big bodies on the field to keep you in base. That is what we want to do. That is the function that it is serving. Even if we have two or three tight ends, they're releasing out into routes. We want to get bodies out there. The Titans are doing it as a way to steal bodies back in protection from different places. So the Browns are doing all of these boots and all the nakeds, they're getting Baker out. And that's why you don't need as many guys in there to protect because you're getting on the edge.

The Titans do very little of that. They're dropping straight back on play action and going vertical down the field. And it's like, for example, when you watch the Niners do their split zone play actions, the titan coming. back across the formation. You see it all the time. You can picture it. He's running a little slice route into the flat. That's what he's doing. The Titans, he's stopping at the tackle and sealing the backside off consistently. Same with the fullback. That's what they do. They're just trying to use all of those heavy personnel to have sneaky ways to make their protection better rather than trying to get you in base and sneaking those guys out in routes. And I think that's such a fascinating

in contrast to what teams like San Francisco or Minnesota or Cleveland do and offenses that we would say come from the same family. But when you actually watch it in practice, it looks much, much different. Yeah. And also that added benefit of just you're changing up the attack points on those pass rushers, like where the blockings coming from. And that's just an added benefit of just like, it's just slowing them down. You know, okay, yeah, it's not, it might be a tight end who's an okay pass protector that usually that edge guy should blow up. But if that guy, edge player doesn't know how to pin his ears back, like edge players know to crank it up on third down.

Like we just think O line and quarterbacks and maybe a couple other guys are going to be smart. Defenders know when they get paid. So they, they stack, they box score watch too. So they know on third down or even second and long. They're like, hey, this is a heavy pass down. Here we go. But it's like they know what it pin the ears back and get it going. If they know it's a basic look, but also if you're motioning the guy in,

or whoa, why'd that left tackle step down? And all of a sudden, the tight end is just grazing you. And then it's like, okay, well, I have to wrong shoulder this. Or I have to, I have to play him square up. Or is the tight end going to slip me? And they told me to slow down the tight end. If you slip, it's like just, you're just causing them to slow down. And that's the human element of all this.

That's amazing. Because it's like, yeah, you're not hitting them hard, hard, hard. Like you think in football, it's more like, no, you're, you're winning the metal game on them, just some little metal edge on it. No, and attacking in different ways in play action always just fascinates me. like when the Rams came on on the scene or McVeigh came on the scene, I should say, and how they got to everything in play action, or I'm sorry,

how they got to all these play action stuff out of no huddle has still fascinated to me to this day. Because that's something I kind of taken what you're saying is because the Titans did it really well, did it really well as well, and that they'd be in these no huddles, hanging huddles, and they can get to all this stuff because it's becoming such a base concept for them. And that's something that's just, it just makes sense to me.

And also just this is such a better way. to create explosive place. Exactly. Because again, like we're tying in with the run game stuff, a lot of these reads are touchdown to check down.

That's just a shorthand way of saying it, but it's gash or check it down. And like, we'll have to play another day. And sometimes like, even watching the Rams a few years ago, how many times you see Gourley

just barreling down the sideline after he catches a checkdown? And it's like, yeah, that's what this can create. You see Derek Henry doing it a couple times, even with his hands.

And it's like just finding ways to attack that middle area, that seam bender area, dig area over and over again. And rather than dropping back and having a, you know, genius brain QB back there, just always knifing it and willing to throw over the middle on these tough, you know, you know, God mode throws. It's like, hey, let's just create easy looks. And guess what? We still gain 22 yards. And guess what? We're protected. So we might not have the best talent, but guess what we're scheming

you up. And you can see it as a way just to lift the bar for everybody. And that's what's so cool about these concepts. And it's just that in this philosophy of offense is tying all the looks in together is that a lot of this stuff is day one day two base install stuff for everybody but then people get away from it because they're like no we got to put in our drop back game game we got to put in our long passes we got to do our quick game stuff and as opposed to just going hey what about that day two play action concept that we ran and uh and you know we haven't run since day two of training camp can we run that again because it worked in training camp for 40 yards of pop so let's do that so that's what it's always just interesting to see you you brought the

great point of those guys tannin hill especially with the tight that it's a hard play action and it's just a nice tight pocket and how the action I guess is the best way to put it is very fascinating to me as well you see the half roll stuff you see the full boot stuff you see which run concept they're doing the play action off of like recently you see more and more with a puller again which is hilarious because that's tying into our first point about the gap gap runs coming back so now we're seeing that's Patriots 101 baby Patriots one a lot and they do the opposite way oh i know also in the uh the bucks love it now too they're on all that trap pass and it's just hilarious just to see the guy pulling out there but it's that's what

you're going to see it's just there's different ways to attack it that's another one bruce arians his play action game is completely different than all these guys he runs it off a duo and it's just it's duo to you know doing his stuff i mean it's just so cool how what we all consider we just say play action we think it all looks the same it's like you can just do little tweaks that affect the defense in such different ways it's fun because the titans really love a formation where they have a receiver to one side and they have this kind of tight trips to the other side. With both tight ends are on the same side and then the third receiver is there.

So it works in a bunch of different ways. Sometimes a third receiver will insert and then do something off of what looks like duo because we've seen that with the bucks. We think of Chris Godwin doing it. The Titans folded that a little bit more. Sometimes one of the tight ends will come across the formation in jet motion to be a flat controller. Sometimes he'll do it a little bit slower.

And the best thing is, We're talking about the wrinkles in the run game. The little wrinkles off this stuff is easy money. So the one time where that slice instead of cutting off the backside does slip a guy into the flat, it's 15 yards to Jeff Swain without blinking. Or you have Blasin game instead of sealing the back. There's one play they did. I just love it.

It's an eye formation. He shuffles a little bit to the left. And then he goes to the backside to seal it off. And they do it consistently. And then one time he slips it. And it's a 20-yard gain to your heart. fullback without even having to do anything about it. And that's what they do so well.

Again, it's not a ton of stuff. It's actually like four or five things they do over and over and over again with a little wrinkle off of it. Think about the Ravens game where Corey Davis, instead of coming across, went back outside like two or three times against Marks. It's like our favorite player of the year because we were so excited to see that. It was like the ultimate change. And that's exactly what it is.

And I just think that it's so cool. And again, you watch them. And you think, again, these offenses are in similar families. They come from similar places. And then when you watch the little tiny differences in approach and why they work, it's so interesting. I don't think the Brown's play action game is that much less effective than what the Titans do. But philosophically and in practice, it just looks so drastically different. Even aesthetically, it's like this looks like two different versions of football, even though we would lump them in to a similar sort of idea.

All right. And you get to fund screen plays, too, which is the best, which has been a lot. Browns crush that stuff. Yeah, I know. That's screen games is disgusting. We're not going to talk about, but that was another thing I was kind of like looking at. I was like, man, I want to really study all these screens that we have going. But because of motions, so I'll bring up the next point.

So the one thing I would say, actually, before we move on, I want to, because I tweeted this and I want to plant my flag on it, I have, I think Tanna Hill is limited compared to like the great, great quarterbacks. I definitely do. He's not. If you put him in a situation where he doesn't have every advantage like he does on some of those play action concepts, you see the cracks. But that guy in that offense is perfect. It's perfect. His ability to deliver the ball accurately over the middle of the field, the timing and some of that stuff, and he is tough as shit. That comes up over and over and over again.

He just gets destroyed on so many of these plays, and it doesn't matter. He stands in there. And the other thing I thought was really interesting is that on those plays, just think about it. your mind. The one guy on the outside usually runs off and then the guy, the backside guy coming across on that deep over, we'll just run behind it. The Titans will have, he'll run that bench route to the play side. And that gives you two receivers that you can throw the ball to. And that's why it works because every once in a while, they'll throw that little bench route to AJ Brown, even though he theoretically is supposed to be the guy running off on that play. Which I think is just a smart way. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. It's not a true crossfield read is the, the throat. coming into your window. So it's just like as a quarterback, the adjustment isn't, I'm just making it up a number here, but it isn't nine inches, it's four inches as far as turning your body and everything. And that,

like you said, it just makes it so much easier on the quarterback. All right. What's your next one here? So I really do think, and this is watching a couple teams, especially Packers and Chiefs, is motion is just going to become more and more important.

And how, and not so much just doing a motion. And we, I think we've already, got past that point. I think everyone their mother knows. Everyone's motioning now. I'm saying how teams are getting more creative with how they're

using the motion guy. It's almost like you almost want to look at CFL film so I get ideas now. But it's not just the jet sweep it's especially jet sweep motion. That's going to be the most common. It's just a nice blanket term. But instead of those just becoming flat routes or just a runoff guy and being

a checkdown, now they're becoming wheel routes. Now they're becoming seam routes. And all these top offenses, They run versions of Switch vertical now, all go RBC and we all love it. But also in the run game, because you got teams like the Ravens and the 49ers, and they use these JetSuite motions as like a full speed kickout guy, whether it be a fullback, like juice check or just a receiver, like Willie Steed. The Ravens did it with Willie Steed all the time.

Because that's all he's going to be good for that for what they needed. But yeah, they use them as basically a fullback. But that's the thing is when you use those types of motions and you're changing, again, it's attacking angles differently. But I'm curious, too, is what is the next step going to be off of that? Because if I were watching all that and being like, shit, like, as opposed to the running back, all go runback seam and they went up the seam, they had a runback running the outside wheel. They had the running back coming back and running the post or the big over route. Like, you know, it's like, okay, what's the next step?

Can we run a full route tree with a guy off of speed motion? Like teams are going to get, they're more, you become more comfortable with it. Like you really do. As you get, we talked about Aaron Rogers, who never wanted motion before. And now he gets motion all the time. like, okay, this isn't so bad. And it's because you just get used to it. You get used to what the rules are and all the looks are.

The protection rules especially. As the quarterbacks get more and more used to the protection rules off of all of that movement, I think you'll be able to sell some of the old dogs on it. I've come full way around on it as a former quarterback. I went, no, I don't want motion at all. Like, no, screw that. But then when you do it day one installed, that's another Kyle Shanahan thing, is that day one installed those first plays, they didn't just do a blank static play.

Shifts of motions is into terminology. verbiage day one first play of the first play of training camp so everyone just gets used to it everyone gets used to every type of look and really what got this whole point out of me is one creating four strong looks out of this is because i think that's going to become more and more prevalent around the week as teams are going to become more and more creative with creating four strong looks usually it's three by packers did that a ton ton and because i guess especially that rams game as more people copy with the rams and fan fangio have been doing you know i know it's not evolutionary but i mean how they're doing it's just a nice tie-in,

teams are going to start trying to create overload looks. So different ways. It used to be if you were in a three-by-one look and the running back was strong towards the three, the trip side, that was a sprint out or a run play. It was like, those are only two plays you can run. You're going to run a sprint out because the runnerback has to seal the edge or you're going to run a zone going the other way.

Now it's like, well, he might motion back. He might sprint motion out. He might just create all this overlap of communication issues because they have to communicate. Match coverage requires a lot of communication among defenders or at least knowing being on the street. So I think you're just going to see more and more of that. And really what brought this whole point up was when I was watching the Cowboys and watching

deck. And I just noticed how slow their motions were. And it was just cross formation motion, just old school. We're going from two by two to three by one. Okay, readjust. Look at the look. And it was like, the defense was like, okay, you know, rotate, rotate, you know, trips down, left, left, left.

And it's like, okay, it's a little different. And that's what made we watch these other teams going like, yeah, gem motions. And what do you do with it? that's going to be the next step for everybody. One play that I think that I noticed a couple different times during the season, the Rams ran against Washington when Woods went from left to right and got instantly vertical up the left sideline for a long touchdown. And then the bills ran the same play to Isaiah McKenzie.

I want to say it was in the Niners game, but it was the exact same idea where he's coming left to right in jet motion and getting vertical instantly. And I just don't know what you're supposed to do about that. I mean, when the numbers are changing that quick, and you have somebody getting that vertical. And like you said, if defense is started to adjust, does that guy sit down? Yes.

Then what happens? Because there's obviously an answer to it. But if you're having to haul ass to stop that, you're in a position of complete desperation and you're scrambling. So if you're scrambling to stop that, is there going to be stuff that can then come back underneath because you're so worried about that vertical shot down on the sidelines? It's just that little back and forth and what's next steps and everything else is just always so interesting. You're trying to create edginess.

We talk about like pass rush and all that, but like mental edginess. You're just trying to create that little split second of uncertainty. It's a game of inches. So if you're an inch, an inch slow, I'm going to take that advantage. Like, because that inch might be three inches this time. And all of a sudden it's a wide open guy down the sideline as opposed to a covered play. It's just changing up the looks. We make fun of them a little bit, but also we harp and we harp.

we want to critique coaching and everything. It's like, these guys are really, really smart at what they do. So they're going to watch a lot of film. Me and you did it for a week. They do it all year around. Exactly. Exactly. So they're going to see these things that we're seeing.

And that's why just the back and forth that happens with this stuff is so cool. Because then rules can become normal. Like that's why I was bringing up that four strong stuff with the Jet Motion stuff. It's because that was kind of crazy. It's like now teams are kind of comfortable going four strong. And now you're getting that. that's actually yeah hold on that's all another point but that's why you're going to get into just teams get comfortable with that and also you'll see one team go like we're going to have a

running back do this and the tight end do this on this on this route concept and also other teams go oh you can do that and we have film of it coaches sometimes can't i just compliment it on but they can be a little bit uh lack of creativity oh yeah unless they see it on film and see somebody else doing it and they're like oh it's possible let's do it now everything else is theory so i think just we're going to just see more of that as this year goes on so i'm mentioned that Isaiah McKenzie play against the Niners. I wanted to talk about the bills and something I went watching them and how it applies to some other things. So I was digging through some of the numbers and the bills ran the most passes against man coverage in the NFL by a lot last year. It was

246 of them, especially when you compare it to the percentage of total passes that they had as a team that was winning all the time. And I was looking at it and I was like, why the hell did the bills who were very, very good against man coverage last year, face more man coverage than any other team in the NFL. And I think the answer is comes from several different places. One, they play against the Patriots and the dolphins twice a year, which if you look at it, that's a ton of it. So, I mean, having two Patriot, Belichick-tinged teams in the division does that. Two, do you know the bills were the most blitzed team in the NFL last season? That's crazy. They faced more blitzes than anyone else in the league. It was over 200 of them. A team like the Colts or the Ravens was half

of that number. And these are not rate stats. These just total numbers, but still jarring. And so when I was watching the bills, I went back through all of their 10 or plus yard completions against man coverage, which it is so, so interesting to watch. And then I watched a couple other teams and what they did against man coverage. And to me, the takeaway was there's no one way to do this. There is not one way to attack a team if they're playing man against you. So when I was watching the Bills, it was just an excuse to watch a lot of Stefan Diggs, but I really was just watching the Bills. So Diggs had 61 catches against man last year most in the week.

And when you watch what the Bills do against man coverage, it's a lot of different ideas, not one thing, but they really try to get guys coming across the field. They make you defend every single inch. And they can do that for a few different reasons. One, Alan can hold on to the ball because he can create space for himself and he has the arm strength to let it go late. So you see that all the time. Just types of longer developing plays that would just not be on the table for other teams are on the table for the bills.

And the other thing they do is they spread you out. A lot of three receiver sets, a lot of guys. We watch so many different offenses now, whether it's the Titans or any of the Shanahan teams, any of the McVeigh influence teams, it's all tight. It's all tight to the line of scrimmage. The splits for the receivers are very, very small. I mean, in Tennessee, it's crazy sometimes. You got guys just standing next to the tight end on both sides.

The bills are much different. Yes. The bills are much different than that. The formations are much, much wider, and they're really making you defend the whole field. And watching that in comparison to a team like the Colts, right? So you watch the bills, 81% of their completions last year against man coverage went to wide receivers.

There's the highest rate in the NFL, which is a ton. It's not surprising when you consider how they're built, but it's a ton. And then you look at a team like the Colts. 54% of their completions went to wide receivers. But the Colts, weirdly enough, if you look at, again, all of these numbers are fascinating to me. If you look at it, the Colts had the most completions of 10 or more yards last season against man coverage in five-man protection. So let's think about that.

Why would that be the case? Because they don't get blitzed, so you don't have to worry about keeping it back in, and you have rivers wanting more guys out in routes. So you compare that to a team like the Colts that, or a team like the Bills, that's never in those five-man protections, but it's also like all of this stuff

and just the different ways you attack man coverage is one of my favorite things to watch. So the Bills, one of the things they love to do is they had that Nub's trick. trip look where they'd have the tight end on one side and they'd have the three receivers on the other side and what you can do is then you can play with who is the number two and three receiver on that three receiver side so sometimes they'd have digs there and he'd be the one running that over into all that space or he'd run a little return route instead of doing the over or Beasley would do the

same thing or from that number three spot he'd instantly go vertical and it's just a very similar look but all the different little variations of it that they had. And again, then you watch the Colts and they're not doing any of that big over stuff. There's a lot of mesh, but it happens much, much, much quicker. And they'll have little pick routes where the tight end is clearing out. They'll have the running back out, running a slant with a tight end, running a little slant flat, just all of these different ways the team's attack man coverage as I think more and more defenses are going to embrace that man look or that man-heavy approach. I just think that the amount of different ways that teams are dealing with it is definitely

worth paying attention to. Yeah. And what you're getting creative, like what you're talking about with having like digs at the three spot. You know, that's the Tyreek Hill spot as well is the defense is like we've talked about a few times on this podcast is they start coming with rules to common looks because they have to know what they're going to defend whether they're going to install during training camp and every week of the year refer back to. And that's why it becomes so. much more jarring when you watch a team, actually like the Cowboys, is one of them, and seeing how static their routes are. And we've talked about this before.

And you just see stop routes, which used to be good. When you played against spot drop cover three and cover four and all that, that was fine. And it converted to a go against cover two. And the corners have just gotten so much more physical and handy. Even with the rules, they just know they're better at staying on top. So stop routes kind of, I don't know. It's a whole trickle down a thing. But that becomes so much more like jarring.

You're like, oh, getting those guys on. the move of running away. It's just a common thing or just like just human, you know, physics. Like just I'm going to be easier to get open if I'm running away from this guy as opposed to stopping and hoping to throw him by. Like we're not all that athletic. But the reason like, you know, the defense is going to make all these rules and like the speed at three.

We've talked about before. But there's a reason like the Seahawks defense, the Legion of Boom, all this match coverage now everyone's running. They were comfortable having their linebacker carry that number three spot on overrouts. Because he's Bobby Wagner. And having Bobby Wagner helps too, yes. But it used to be a tight end there. And tight end there, tight end there, tight end there.

So really you can put anyone there. You know, it's like, okay. Then teams started putting speed at three. And then it's Bobby Wagner. It was like, oh, Bobby Wagner is really freaking good. When all of a sudden you see him running 35 yards down field with the guy that runs a 4-4. And it's like that, but that's why it's you're changing up where everybody's at. It's the same X as an O.

So like if it was just X is on a board, it's the same. But now it's an X, it's an H and 7X. It's a Y or an F instead of a Y. It's a Z and 7H. You know, you're just changing you up what each spot is. You're talking about, man, some of those calls are match calls. And sometimes you can get the defense to waste a guy. Say I didn't have Travis Kelsey and I just had some shit tight end.

I could split him out and we have a corner wasted on him if they're in a match coverage, which plays out like man. And then also I have my number three, my best receiver. We used to be, we would call an X receiver, but really it's extra receiver just means number one now. I mean, let's be honest. And, okay, now he's over there. And you might just have your, okay, your nickel. If he's in the number two spot, okay, or you have your linebacker trying to run with them.

They might be in dime. You might have a safety rotated down. It's like you're watching Jamal Adams trying to stick with Stefan Diggs on some of those plays. Oh, my God. It did not end well. And that's the fun part of watching it is that. Jamal Adams versus Edelman wasn't pretty either. And that's, those are the matchups that you get.

And like you said, it's the X's on the chalkboard. just flipping Beasley and Diggs, it gives you something different. It gives you a different flavor on the exact same sort of play. And watching the bills do all that stuff. And they ran a couple of straight weeks. It was week nine, I want to say, against Seattle and then week 10 against Arizona. They scored two touchdowns off of it against Arizona from the 21-yard line on second and one. And the only difference was they flipped Diggs and Beasley.

And instead of going across the field, Diggs took it vertical for the touchdown. on from the number three spot. And it's just like those little tiny things. It's, we talk, it's so, we make the game so complicated. And in reality, it's just like, all right, we're going to do this thing, the exact same way with this one tiny little tweak. And that's how we're going to get explosives. And watching the bills just go to that same look, knocks on the left with that nubs look,

and that nub look, three receivers on the right and just do little tiny different variations of the same stuff, especially against man, is so. cool. And then that brings me back to the kind of the man point in general is that they're all spread out. They're using space to their advantage there. And the Colts, for example, they're not like that. They're using the bodies to their advantage. They're getting guys on rubrouts. They're creating space rather than using space across the field. And just having two offenses that are really, really good at attacking man coverage do it in such different ways is really fun to watch. I truly think that we under Rafe Frank Reich as an offensive play caller and that

offense in general because when you watch it, how easy it is at times the space they create for guys, even though they don't have offensive stars, is really, really impressive. And some of that is Rivers, right? So if you look at a lot of their explosive plays against man coverage, it's him understanding exactly where the pressure is and the back filtering out. It's so many different things he can do that a lot of other guys can't. But I, I still think that Reich is underappreciated when it comes to putting his guys in spots to succeed. It's very, it's, he does the classic thing. We talked about with Sean Payton and that it's not the craziest place in the world.

Match has been around for two decades now, you know. It's, it's just the window dressing out. It's getting into 13 personnel. It's getting into 12 personnel and running something vertical. It's all that. I completely agree. I think he is very unappreciated. And that's another thing, too.

we've talked about with match protect and heavy protection stuff with the Titans and now like the five man protection stop just different ways to get vertical against against teams and I think I think there's just now becoming such a willingness for for teams. Chiefs are leading the way they can get away with it a little bit with Mahomes. But even with rock account of course I'm going my homes and Rogers. But the chiefs and packers, but teams are realizing okay every time when you installed five man protection it used to be it's just quicking. It's just that's what it is. It's quick. We, we, ball has to get out. Like, it just has to get out.

Teams are now going like, oh, we can do some of our five-step concepts, like four verts. We can do, that's what switch verticals are being seen, you know, the one I brought up a few times on this podcast. It's a five-man protection. It's, it's a deep passing play, but it's five-man protection. That's scary. But these new play callers are getting more creative and more willing in offensive

line coaches too, because now they're having answers, either a built-in hot or one, two, three out of the gun and the ball gets out right away. And teams are becoming more. more and more willing to do that. As opposed to it used to just be, no, it has to be quick game because otherwise you're taking the sack. Now guys are like going like,

oh, we can get after defense is more vertical, creating explosives with five-man protection. And a best way to beat all the blitz is all these funky pressures that defenses are bringing out, either max protect it and sort it out or you go five-man pro and beat it with the throw. And I just think that's what teams are going to lean to more and more. Just a great way to beat man.

You're beating all those pressures. If you go five man, you get all five eligibles out. And they're trying to match it. somehow you can really create a lot of strain on defenses. So you talked about with Mahomes and with Rogers and those guys. And it came to mind when I was watching Josh Allen today, but it was something I was thinking about while watching Justin Herbert last week two weeks ago we were doing the quarterback draft.

And my last lesson here, and this is the last thing we'll talk about, I think, and this is, again, it's going to sound simple, but I do think it's a huge point in the league right now. If you don't have one of the guys, you're in charge. trouble. And the reason for that, obviously that sounds so stupid, but it's not that you need a good quarterback to succeed. When I was watching the bills and watching so many of their explosive plays, I tweeted one of them today. It was the touchdown to Diggs in the back of the end zone where Alan spun out to his left. There's just so many plays where it's like, go do something, Josh. Just make it

happen. And the ability of a quarterback like that or like Mahomes or I think like Justin Herbert or Lamar Jackson or some of these guys, to make a defense wrong, even when they're right, is a sea change in the league to me. I mean, it's just, to me, it's such an important moment,

and I think we've seen that moment permeate the league and the choices the teams have made. The Rams looked at what was happening with Jared Gough and said, he's not good enough. He is not good enough. We need someone that has one of those top shelf arms,

and they went and got one. The Niners looked at what was happening with Garoppel and said, this isn't good enough. We need one of the guys. And all of the stuff that Kyle Shanahan has said about playing against the Josh Allen and what you learn from having to stop a guy like that, that to me is a huge, huge part of the game.

It's the Mahomes effect. It is the rest of the teams around the league looking at their guys and just saying, this is the guy we have to beat, that guy is not going to be able to do that. And understanding that, and that's okay. Yeah, it is. It's okay to be. those quarterbacks. Yeah.

And to know you need one of those guys, it just, it was so, it was so stark watching Josh and Allen play and just seeing how many shit situations. He was like, you know what? I'm fine. I'm going to roll out or I'm going to hang on to it or I'm going to throw the ball back across my body. And I just think that defenses are so complex. There are so many good ones.

There are so many good teams. You need a guy who is going to be able to manufacture offense all on his own. And again, I know that sounds. and simple, you need a good quarterback. But I just think it is so, so apparent when you watch these teams right now. Completely, completely agree. And that's something, I think this is like some, the best point we've come to on this podcast is the ability to create at the quarterback position is not something you want anymore.

It's a necessity at the position now. You just have to be a good athlete or at least be able to throw on the move and get something with your legs. And that's another thing. If teams want to run more and more man coverage or teams want to blitz more. and more. You know how you punish that? QB running because that is very frustrating to have guys on the move and the DBs have

their backs turned or linebackers are trying to look stuff up. And then all of a sudden they turn around, there's a quarterback running, Scott Fri, 15 yards and sliding and given the first down signal. That's very frustrating for a defense. And that's why the one to two to scramble is becoming more and more prevalent with some of these reeds and stuff. The West Coast offense, the traditional old school 90s, late 80s, 90s, West Coast offense that came around the whole league.

the worst thing that happened was everyone expected everyone to the quarterback to be Joe Montana and go one, two, three, four, five, six, seven and make the perfect read every time. And then you watch Mike Holmgren go to Green Bay and you see Brett Farr of just saying, all right, fuck the read. I'm going to go, I'm going to go scramble and make a play. What's nickel? What's nickel personnel again? Like that's kind of what he did.

And that's what every guy kind of has to do now. It's like, okay. And I think coaches now are instead of going like, this is my shit. You have to read it right. they're going like, hey, go make a play, be a football player. It's a necessity. It really is. Sometimes you need those quarterbacks to just go get you a bucket.

And that's just what it is. It's a great way to put it. It really is. NBA is the best example of it. You can have this best offense. I saw the jazz a few years ago. I ran the super efficient offense, great movement. They got to the playoffs.

They couldn't score anything because they couldn't have a guy that could get them a bucket. And just because the defense is locked down. All of some of those NBA players start trying in the playoffs on defense, like for all 48 minutes. Don't get me wrong. They try for most of the part. But it's like now all of a sudden it's like, we just need a guy that could just win. And that's what sometimes you need a quarterback. There's a, there's a TV trope. And it's off the Marx Brothers. And I just thought of this when you were saying, when you were talking. And it's, it just says, Harpo, go do something funny. And they say that's the greatest compliment you could give to a comedic actor is they have no script for you. They just say, go do something funny. And they took it from the Marx Brothers. They just put Harpo do something funny. Sometimes the quarterbacks just go do something funny. Just go.

And Josh Allen's the number one example of that because watching that Rams game especially, that was the one I watched a couple days ago. Yeah. And seeing the match coverage and everything passing off perfectly, that thing is all timed in the defense's head too. If I hold this guy for one second, one Mississippi. All right, move to this guy, one Mississippi. Ball should be out or we should get a sack.

But if you have a guy that's also in using his legs and ad libing and extending the play, those rules are blown out of the water. They start to collapse. They collapse. Because that is meant to be four seconds or less. when also the play is seven seconds and all of a sudden you have to defend 40 yards down the field that's why you need these guys

because they're just going to break all your rules and just play football. And it's so funny that you said they get the bucket thing because I was having a conversation about Tanna Hill on National Radio today. And that's the terms I was thinking of but I didn't say it like that. I think with him and with Baker,

I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Browns had, maybe not, no, let's say this. If the Browns finished number one in offensive DVOA, this show. Would you believe that? Let's say top three. Yeah, I could do top three. Yeah, I could see top three.

Let's say the Titans have been number one or number two for the last two years. They've been one of the most efficient offenses in the league. Let's say the Browns are in that realm. They are a top three to four offense according to every efficiency metric. If you're just putting it down on paper, this is what a contender looks like. A top three or four offense, let's see if the defense gets to top four, and here we go. We're coming.

We are right there. But those guys can't get you a bucket. Yeah. And that is the difference. And it shows up. And especially late, those guys can't get you a bucket. And I think that both of them are underappreciated in some ways. And I like them as quarterbacks and all of that stuff.

But that's the difference is that Josh Allen and Patrick Mahomes and Aaron Rogers can get you buckets. And those guys can't all the time. They are really, really good system quarterbacks and point guards of very well-constructed offenses, but sometimes you just need a bucket. And watching the bills today was such a glaring reminder of that. And I think that it's going to be a conversation and an idea that we go back to over and over and over again over the course of this season. That is a consideration for another time, though. For now, we are done.

We will be back next week. we have another really exciting episode of the interview series. I'm looking forward to it as an NFL head coach. I think you guys are going to enjoy it. You and I will be back next week with Lindsay. I think we're going to do coaches. I think that's what we're going to do. I think we're going to talk to some coaches.

We'll see what form it takes, but it is going to be a coach-centric show. Until then, guys, please rate and review the podcast on the podcast platform of choice. I would really appreciate that. Also, please subscribe to the athletic I wrote today. about the bucks bringing back all of their starters, whether that actually matters.

And if roster turnover and attrition is what has done recent or other Super Bowl champions in, I really enjoyed writing that, I learned a lot. Theathletic.com slash football show is where you can subscribe. We will be back next week. Until then, enjoy your weekend.

We appreciate you listening. Talk to you later. This was the Athletic Football Show.