The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - A pre-Thanksgiving NFL Draft feast with Dane Brugler

Episode Date: November 26, 2024

The college football regular season is winding to a close, which means our discussions around the 2025 NFL Draft are heating up. Dane Brugler joins Robert Mays to check in on where the class stands on this episode of The Athletic Football Show. The guys also discuss the rookie campaigns being put together by Drake Maye, Brock Bowers, Jared Verse and Bo Nix. Before all that, though, The Athletic's Chargers beat reporter Daniel Popper gets on the mic with Robert to recap the Ravens' win over the Chargers on Monday night.RundownRavens-Chargers MNF recapEmerging polarization in the 2025 NFL Draft classDane's initial flag plantingThe 2025 quarterbacks, headlined by Shedeur Sanders and Cam WardIntriguing pairings in the top 10Drake Maye is a dudeShould the Jets have taken Brock Bowers?Should the Falcons have taken Jared Verse?Why the Bo Nix/Broncos pairing is workingHost: Robert MaysWith: Daniel Popper and Dane BruglerExecutive Producer: Michael BellerProducer: Michael BellerSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeFollow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow Robert on Bluesky: @robertmays.bsky.socialFollow Daniel on X: @danielrpopperFollow Dane on X: @dpbruglerTheme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. Brought to you by Thursday Night Football only on Prime Video. I'm Robert Mays. Really fun midweek show for you guys this week. Had a fantastic Monday night football game last night between the Ravens and the Chargers. Just really good stuff overall. Excellent quarterback play, high quality play from both sides. Had our Chargers writer Daniel Popperon to talk about that game

and also just a broader conversation about this season for the Chargers. Things feel very different there. They're getting such high-level play from Stopgap players on defense. What Jesse Minter's unit has. has done. But I think we've also noticed some of the limitations of where that team is on its timeline and its current build. We hit on all of that with Daniel. And then chat with our old buddy, Dame Bruegler. Just time for a draft revisit. We did one earlier in the season. Obviously, we've had a lot of college football between now and then. So we talked about the state of this

2025 class, the quality of it, where it differs from the 2024 group, dug into the quarterbacks at the top of this group, Cam Ward, Shedur-Sanders, what type of prospects we're talking about there, where they might land and who might make sense. And then for this week's ball knower, we focused all on rookies and just some of the questions Dane had about the notable rookies from this class, what they've given their teams, and some sliding doors moments that maybe were unexplored in this year's draft class. So very excited for you guys to hear those conversations with Daniel and Dane. Let's get to it.

Joining us now, it is our Chargers writers here at the athletic. It's Daniel Popper. Daniel, appreciate the time, man. I know you had a long night. Yeah, thanks for having me. We're rolling here, though. got about three cups of coffee in my system, so I'm ready to fire off some takes. Heck of a Monday night game.

I mean, everything you could have wanted, obviously one that looked a lot better in the week prior than it would have looked at the beginning of the season just because we had no idea what the charges were going to be. And now it's shaping up or it did shape up as a game between likely playoff teams in the AFC. We have the whole Jim Harbaugh, John Harbaugh, Ango, which you were spared because you were at the game. So I'm a little jealous of you there.

The fact that you didn't have to hear about the family dynamics of the Harbaugh brothers for the entire 60 years of their example. resistance. That was a, if I had to do that to get the quality of game we got, that's fine. It's a price I was willing to pay. But at the end of the day, probably one of the better Monday night games from an entertainment perspective that I can remember, and also just the quality of play. Like, sometimes you get a 30 to 27 game and it involves the Bengals defense and you're just like, eh, you know, this isn't necessarily good football, even if it's fun. Last night felt like a really compelling matchups between two very good football teams. And that's probably an interesting place for

you to be as somebody who has been following the Chargers for the last three or four years. The fact that we're dealing with that sort of team as we round toward Thanksgiving here. Yeah, I think that's been the biggest thing about the Jim Harbaugh effect is that you're just going to get a well-coached team. Like there's not going to be instances where the Chargers go into a game. Like I think about the Lions game last year where that defense just got absolutely torched. And it was just very obvious that they were overmatched as a coaching staff. Like that hasn't really happened this season.

And so like there's a floor going into every game. what you're going to get in terms of effort, in terms of the cohesion on both sides of the ball. Now, the execution, sometimes not there. The level of talent, obviously, was the difference in this game. But I think there's a floor as far as how they're going to play. And that's why you pay Jim Harbaugh, $16 million a year, to get that quality from the coaching staff. I want to talk about that takeaway, the lack of the gap in talent and why that was very evident by the end of the game last night, because I think that's kind of where I sat with it as well.

But let's talk about kind of where this game swings before we dig into the charger specifics of this. The margins in this game are tiny, like tiny, tiny. We've got three fourth and ones, including one in the first half where I loved it. When they came back out and he was like, I'm going to go for this here on fourth and inches for my own 16 yard line with two minutes left in the half. I loved it for this reason. You felt the Chargers bleeding the game away in that first half. They were controlling the ball. They were controlling the clock.

The game was being played on their terms. The Ravens had a couple very quick drives early on. It's a game of possessions. You only have so many possessions, especially when you're playing against a team like the Chargers, that's trying to shorten the game however they can. So stealing back that possession and then going down and scoring that touchdown, it swings the game. The Chargers end up getting the field goal, so it's a little bit of a smaller gap at halftime than it would have been. So I want to spend a lot of time just as a general football community talking about that,

because if it had gone wrong, it would have led every morning show in existence today in a way it's probably not right now because it actually worked out for the Ravens. The number of times I had this conversation during this Brandon Staley era where it felt like every time a fourth down went wrong, I was having the conversation. And yet never in a million years did we ever have a conversation about fourth downs that went right? Like the first drive in there went over the Bengals in 2022, never talked about it. So, you know, it was a gutsy call. I mean, you're on your own 16.

I think there's the decision to go for it, which like fourth and one, if you're an analytically driven team, you're going to go for it pretty much every single time. The play call was what was fascinating to me. I mean, you have Derek Henry and you line up Mark Andrews under center and run a sneak with the tight end. It was it was gutsy in the decision to go for it. It was also gutsy in what they ended up doing, especially on that touchdown drive before, the Chargers very obviously couldn't stop Derek Henry.

Now they had stopped him on the third and one on the previous play, but I'm surprised they didn't just hand it off to 22 and be like, all right, go get a yard. I need this stats on this before I just start crowing about it with a lot of confidence, I should probably go look them up. I feel like sneaks are the way to go. If you feel comfortable sneaking the football, for whatever reason, some teams don't want to do it. Their quarterback doesn't take a lot of snaps under center, so you're worried about the exchange. You're worried about hurting your quarterback if you're the chiefs. Patrick Mahomes does not do quarterback sneaks for this reason. But if you're a team that feels confident in the quarterback center

exchange, or the tight end center exchange in this case, and you are okay with whoever ends up being the sneaker on your team, if you have less than a yard to go, that is what you should do every single time. It's one of my like old man pet peeve things that drives me absolutely crazy. So the fact that they were not willing to go back three yards into the backfield to hand it off in that moment, I'm okay with that because I think that is typically the quickest route to convert those when it's on the table for you. Yeah, absolutely. If you have the personnel and you have and you have either the quarterback or in this case the tight end that that's willing to do it and capable of doing it, but obviously the Chargers had a famous quarterback in Philip Rivers who did not sneak ever and was

obviously like very opposed to that. Which is so funny because Philip Rivers is 6-5-2-30, and he probably would have been like one of the better quarterback sneakers in the league if he was just falling down in like two yards every time they needed it. The quarterback play in this game, period, I think on both sides of the ball. But there was a stretch where I can't remember what Lamar did. He made somebody miss in the pocket in just a disgusting way. But it came right on the heels of that Justin Herbert drive where he slides away from Marlon Humphrey coming off the edge to complete that pass. And then earlier in that drive is the one where he goes all the way back to his right to Josh Palmer on third down. And just that's the play on both sides of the ball

kind of top to bottom was good in this game. But the two quarterbacks and the level that they played at, I can't even imagine what it was like to be in that stadium watching those two guys play at that level, considering some of the football that you've had to watch over the last three years. Yeah, I mean, I shouldn't be surprised by things that Justin Herbert does on the football field. It feels different right now, though. It's every week, man. He does something that just blows my mind. That throw to Joshua Palmer off his back foot all the way across the field from the left hash to the right sideline was just insane arm strength. And he just taps into that every week. He makes it look simple. It's like, okay, if you're listening to this and you remember that play, go out to a football

field on Thanksgiving and try and do that. Like everyone should try and do that just to like put in context how ridiculous the throw is. And it's not like it's this looping throw across the field. Like it's on a rope. the arm strength is outrageous and I think he's been playing in an extremely, extremely high level, you know, since the by week. Like, I was thinking about it this morning. Like, how many guys would I take over him right now? It's, it's not that many. Like, it's just not that many with the way that he's playing, the way that he's seeing the field.

And then when you add in the element of him really energizing the offense week after week with his legs and like even in this game, you know, the scramble touchdown. Like, he's been doing it every week. It's been, you know, they had a better drive on the first drive this week. But in weeks past, it's been like, you know, offense is stumbling. They need a spark. And there's Justin Herbert on a 20-yard scramble. He's gotten healthier since the early season high ankle sprain and adding that element to his game with his arm talent as well. I mean, there's just really no ceiling to what he can accomplish as a quarterback, I think.

It's interesting kind of considering the tiering in the top five to six guys. And I'm sure I'll forget somebody because I'm doing this off the cuff. So I already apologize for that. But the way that it feels to me right now, after the way that this season has played out and even going back to last. year a little bit. Mahomes is always going to exist in his own tier to me just because I've done this before and I'm not willing to do it again. So I think you want to put him up there. And then on the second tier, I think coming into this year, I probably had Josh Allen a little bit ahead of Lamar just in terms of what they were offering their offenses. I thought Lamar had more

weaknesses than Josh Allen did. This year, and I've talked about this a bunch, it's the work he's done against the Blitz and just how dangerous he feels no matter what you're throwing at him, that this version of Lamar is just different than the ones that we've seen in years past. That's the one specific I would keep coming back to. So I would put him at Josh Allen probably on their own line. And then after that, I think based on the way that they've played this season, and I think this is always how it probably should have been and how we framed it, it's probably Herbert and Burrow right there together on the next tier.

And if you're actually being honest about separating the quarterback play from the circumstances over the last like three years, that's probably the right outcome if you're trying to tear it out among those five guys near the top. Yeah, I was thinking about this morning. I said three guys. Mahomes, Alan, Jackson that I would take over Justin Herbert right now. And then it becomes like a legitimate conversation, you know, just because, and you have to factor in who he's doing it with.

And that was a big part in this game that I think we should get into. They're down a score. Third and six, Quentin Johnson is wide open on that crossing out. If he makes that catch, that's a 30-yard gain. They're probably in-field goal range in that situation. They're threatening to score. It changes the entire game. It changes the entire game.

The game flips on that moment because it's 2316 when that happens. If they go down and score, we got a tie game. Instead, the Justice Hill thing happens almost immediately and the game is out of reach. And that's kind of what I was saying with the margins. You have the three fourth and ones that the Ravens get in this game. And then you have that quit and Johnson drop. Those four plays end up changing the game. This is a very, very close game.

It's going to look like the Ravens kind of outpaced them in the second half. But this thing swings on three or four plays that could have gone either way. I think the Chargers being at that point where we can say that about a game against the Ravens says a lot about where this Chargers team is right now. Yeah, absolutely. In two ways, right? It shows how much of an improved team they are, but it also shows that there are roster limitations here. And that's what I wrote last night. Like they, like Jim Harbaugh and Joe Ortiz have done a fantastic job of turning this thing around in one year.

They've hit up on a bunch of free agents, draft picks, the mentality and the culture. That's all led to success. but there's missing pieces here. It's going to take longer than a year to turn it over. And you move on from Keenan Allen and Mike Williams and you bring in Ladd McConkey, who's a really good player? But who are the matchup advantages for the Chargers in the passing game? Who's the guy that you can trust to go out on a money down and win in man coverage,

a guy that you feel like going to the game? This is a matchup advantage for us. There's one guy. It's Lad. And then everyone else, Justin is elevating to, you know, get things done in the passing game. That's a really hard way to live in. And it never really comes down to like one play.

But that play was such a good example of like what they need on this team. Like they need a guy that can make that play in that situation because all of a sudden, Quentin Johnson makes that catch. They've got a blocker downfield. He's up the sideline. They're at the 15 yard line. All of a sudden they're in the red zone. They tie the game at 23.

We're having a big change in the conversation that we're having today. And, you know, and I will say this. I want to talk about Quentin for a second. He's improved significantly. It's honestly because everyone's watching this primetime game and they're going to think he's the same player. He's not the same player. I appreciate Justin saying that last night afterward, too, just coming to his defense.

I thought that was really indicative of kind of what's going on in that building right now. Yeah. And I got to give credit to receivers coach Sanjay Lal, who's gotten a lot more out of Quentin Johnston. His hands have been better. His route running has been better. His releases have been better. He's improved in all areas.

he's a much more deceptive, deceptive player. They've been using him better in situations that fit his skill set. This is a perfect example of how you should be using him, stretch the field horizontally and get the ball on his hands. It was just a rough moment, you know, but he has improved significantly. I think that's worth mentioning that the coaching staff is getting more out of players across the roster.

And Quentin Johnson's included in that, even though he had a rough moment last night. I think that's a good example of kind of where the talent gap exists. For me, where it was most apparent yesterday is this team has done an admirable job playing against the run when you want to be who they are structurally. Playing a lot of light boxes, a lot of too high.

It's like, all right, this is who Jesse Minter is, and you're putting a huge onus on your front seven players in defending the run if you want to play that way

structurally. That was fine until you play against a team like this. And now that's where you start to see the gap, and that's where you

start to see just the distance between them and a really, really, really good rushing offense like the Ravens have. And I think that's

originally how I was going to start this conversation, but I want to talk about the game a little bit first, is where have we arrived with the Chargers? And I think that's kind of where I've arrived, is that everything is being put in the correct place, but the individual pieces just don't stand up to the best teams in the NFL right now. And that's totally fine, right? That's what this team was, that's the best case scenario for what this team was going to be in 2024. You had to take your medicine financially. You had to shed some salary and some talent. You knew that was going to happen. And even if the defense is where they kept some of those guys, Bosa, Mac on pickups, etc., they still didn't have money to add players.

They didn't go out and do anything in free agency essentially this year. We're talking about Tyre, Tart, Christian Fulton, some fifth round picks. That's how they've plugged some of these holes. So the fact that there's still a talent gap between this Chargers team and the really, really good teams in the league that are three, four years into contention and are at that point on the timeline in their build, that is a completely acceptable place. for the 2024 Chargers season to end up. And I think that's kind of where we are. Right. Like,

like this is an indication of how far they have left to go, but that's not an indictment of what they're building. Like that's what I wrote, that's what I wrote last night because you're exactly right. And like I'll add Puna Ford in there as well, who I think is having like a pro ball level season. He's been a huge. They've got great play out of all of these guys.

Christian Fulton had a rough night last night, but he had been fine for the most part this year when he had been healthy. Yeah, he'd been there, their best corner. And he was in good position on that touchdown. He just couldn't get, he couldn't get flipped around to find the football. The one thing I will say is a big part of their improvement in run defense is Denzel Perryman. Like at this stage of his career, like he does one thing really, really well.

And that's get downhill and hit the crap out of people. And like that's the guy that you really needed in this game. Like if there was one game that you needed to have Denzel Perryman on the field, it was this one. And not just from a playmaking standpoint. I was talking to some guys in the locker room because I sort of had, I was, I had a theory kicking around in my head. Like in early, on that first Ravens touchdown drive, like you needed Denzel Perryman to meet, to meet Derek Henry in the whole. hole and hit him and show a bunch of these young guys in the defense like hey this guy is human like he can take a shot and I think that would have changed the entire energy of the defense but once he got

rolling I think it creeped into the back of their minds that like this is this is Derek Henry this it wears on your morale man I mean it absolutely does especially if you're a young team you don't have a lot of earned equity together I think that's actually a very good point and the paramed thing I was going to bring up they were you know they're a little bit banged up outside of that Cam Hart didn't play in this game who's had a really nice rookie season. And good and run support. Really? Cam is a physical player on the edge for them at corner.

6-2-205 corner. That certainly helps. But the Denzel Paraman skill set, switching that out for like Nick Neiman and guys like that is specific. Yeah, that is particularly noticeable in this game. So that I think is just the general state of where we are with the Chargers. The fact that they feel like this put together kind of composed team on both sides of the ball, they're putting themselves in good positions, but the talent gap is where this thing exists.

Where do you think outside of receiver, which is kind of obvious, the other holes need to be filled in going into this offseason? We don't need to do this. This exercise isn't as useful for the charges it is for teams that aren't going to make the playoffs. But because I have you here, I'm just curious where you think most of the work needs to be done. Yeah. So I think you start with the interior of the offensive line. And, you know, Bradley Bowman was a fine signing. He is what he is.

Like he's exactly what he's put on tape his entire career. Above average run blocker, liability and pass protection. But he's a fine stopgap. And from a mentality standpoint, he understands Greg Roman. He understands how they want to play. He's a leader in that room. Like he's been exactly what they signed up for. But you need...

It was the right move on a bunch of different levels. He understands the offense. You know, Joe Ortiz knows him. Greg Roman knows him. I think that is the right thing when you're trying to scrape together a stopgap starter at that position. Right, exactly. But you've talked about this so much, how much of a force

multiplier, a really good center can be for an offensive line. And like, I saw it firsthand when the Chargers signed Corey Lindsley and like opened my mind to like what offensive football was actually supposed to look like when you had like a really, really capable center, especially in the running game. But also in past protection, I mean, Corey was an incredible player. So I think you start there. I think you got to find a long term answer at center. And then, you know, it hasn't just been Bozeman. It's also been the guards who I think have been pretty inconsistent. Like Zion Johnson,

I think there was an idea of what he could be when they drafted him and I don't think he's reached that level in terms of consistency. Like, there are snaps that you can go to

and say, like, watch him block Chris Jones one-on-one here, like, and you see the potential, but I don't think he's found the consistency. And then they've kicked Trey Pipkins into guard.

He had a rough night last night. He's dealing with an ankle issue and I think that sort of popped up. He wasn't particularly good in the run game. It wasn't particularly good in pass protection. This is a consistent thing,

though. The fact that he's banged up pretty much constantly is something that you need to fold into your evaluation of him and what sort of answer he is moving forward because this has been a problem. Right, right. And you know, the MCL a couple years ago. So credit to his toughness, but he is, he is, you know, injury prone to be frank about it. So I think you have to figure out what you're going to do on the interior because you have two excellent tackles, two really, really good players. And right now the weakness is on the interior. And they're just getting beat for too many sacks. And they're not getting enough consistent push.

in the run game on the interior. So I think you have to figure that out. It's probably like an early round draft pick at center and then, you know, figure out what you're going to do at right guard. You know, I wouldn't be surprised if they make a switch at right guard. Jamari Salier played really well against the Titans. That was probably the most cohesive game they've had up front.

And then they've been trying to rotate them in. Like they're basically subbing Jamari Salier in for Trey Pipkins and short yardage and goal line packages. So I, they could. And honestly, like, they are willing to do anything. Like they might just go on a full rotation at right guard at some point. So I think you got to start there. And then they need a, well, let me, let me start here.

Will Disley has been way better than I thought he would be in the passing game, but they need like a legitimate. He's Will Disley. Yeah. He's been really good. Like he's been way better than I thought he would be in the passing game. Like I thought he was just going to be like I could control the C gap like blocker tight end. But like he's done some things. Like he's made moves in the open field like he's broken tackles.

but he sort of is what he is as a player. He's a 265 pound tight end. He is not a threat in the passing game in the way that you would probably like from like a seam stretching player. Right. But even Will Disley, like get him down the seam and Justin's going to potentially make like an all-world throw like he did last week against the Bengals where he's just ripping it 150 miles an hour down the seam in between four players and putting it right in between the eight and one on Will Disley. But I think that's the other thing I would look at offensively is you need. like a legitimate receiving tight end that can attack the middle of the field. And there's been some plays this season where Justin Herbert has made some, you know, awe-inspiring throws that Will Disley

has not been able to come down with. So, you know, I think it's receiver. I think it's interior offensive line. I think it's, you know, a legitimate receiving tight end. And then you look at defensively, like there's some, there's some interesting pieces there. But like, you know, we talked about, you know, interior defensive line and, you know, how they matched up with. with Derek Henry, like they've gotten good play out of a bunch of players in there, like Puna Ford and Otito Abonia. And you mentioned Tierra Tart. Morgan Fox is having a good year.

And I think they've outperformed, but I think you sort of have to look there. Edge rusher, right? Like what's going to happen with Khalil? What's going to happen with Joey? Obviously, they have an ascending player in Tully, Too, Polo, but their fourth edge rusher is another veteran guy in Bud DuPri's who's on a one-year deal. And so, like, those are the areas that I would sort of look at. The question is, what do they do a corner? you know, do they extend Christian Fulton?

How much confidence do they have in the two rookies, Cam Hart and Tarheed still? And so, like, do they need like a real difference maker there? Do they need a real number one corner? What's the future for Asante Samuel Jr. who remains on IR with a shoulder? So there's a lot of areas to attack. But I would start with receiver,

interior offensive line, receiving tight end, and then, you know, figure out what you're going to do along the defensive line. I think that all makes sense. And the right guard thing, I was always a little bit skeptical of how the Pipkins thing would work out, just because his weaknesses last year were mostly, like, power and as a run blocker. And so sliding him inside, I was just like, I don't know how this makes sense,

even if you think it's your best option based on what you got. The past catchy thing I think is right on. The Ladmokonky stuff is so funny to me because there are shots of him every time on the broadcast where they show him just him in the helmet. There is not a bigger gap in what a football player looks like in his pads and how funny that guy looks and how productive he is as an NFL player. It's incredible. His helmet is huge. That's why his head just looks so tiny in the helmet. But every time they just show him, I'm like, it's insane that that guy is a non-kicker NFL player.

And not just, we've seen guys that are smaller, like white receivers before. They're all slot merchants. The fact that that's not what he is and he's built like that and looks like that is hilarious to me. And that's not like a criticism. We're the same size. Me and Ladd-McConkie, like 5-11-ish 185. So the fact that he's doing this is remarkable to me. He's like a real player and it's awesome to watch. Yeah, yeah, he's a real athlete. Like he's a legitimate NFL athlete like 439. And the route running to me is incredible.

Sudden, the route running, absolutely. I mean, it was like, it was immediate like OTAs. You just see him out there running routes against the air and you're like, okay. And it was on tape at Georgia, obviously, but you start seeing it against NFL players. And like, you knew immediately that this guy was going to be a good player. And I think he's a really good match for Justin and how Justin. Justin likes to play. Like, you think about why he connected so well with Keenan Allen. It's like an understanding of leverage is it's being in the right place at the right time. It's, it's the

route running. It's all of these things. And so, and Justin has talked a ton about how lad is a very friendly receiver to the quarterback. He's always working back towards the ball. Always. And that, and that means he's never really putting the ball in harm's way because he's really driving on the football all the time. So I think he's going to be a really, really good player. The question is, like, is he a number one receiver on a Super Bowl contender? Right now, I don't think so. He is their number one receiver, but could he be that player moving forward? Potentially? I still don't know how effective he can be consistently on the outside. Like, he really has been playing a majority in the slot, and that's where he's been most productive when he has a two-way go.

That's where I would project moving forward. Now, if he's the number two, now you're cooking. Like, if you have a legit outside guy, like now you're really cooking offensively. I don't think we need to do it in terms of one, two. I think it's just about deployment. I said he's in a slot merchant. What I mean is that he's not somebody who's working the underneath areas of the field. He lines up mostly in the slot, but he is very capable as a vertical receiver. So if you think this guy is somebody that needs to be spending 65% of his time in the

slot in the ideal scenario, you still need an intimidating outside presence, right? Like a viable outside presence. And I think that's what they're missing. I wouldn't consider it. I wouldn't even like theorize it as a hierarchy thing. To me, it's more if we have this guy we like on the inside, we still need somebody on the outside. And I think that's where the gap is with this team.

Yeah, that's right. That's right. You mentioned Justin Herbert. This is the last thing I wanted to ask you about because this is like a theory I've been kicking around for the entire season. I truly believe that whatever Jim Harbaugh's weirdness is and like the sauce that comes with that has unlocked a version of Justin Herbert that we have never seen before. like there's a looseness to the way that he's playing.

There's an aggressiveness to the way that he's playing. And you and I have joked about this. And I remember talking to Shane Day about it, their quarterback's coach during training camp. And I think he just thought I was crazy. But I was like, I wish Justin was 10% dumber. Like I just, I wish he was 10% dumber. Like when I watch him play, I feel like the gap between what I want from him

and what he was over the last couple years, he would be number one in the progression, if it's open, even if it's not enough option. I'm throwing it. He's making the right play all the time. And I think that offense and what. what Joe Lombardi was asking him to do exacerbated that because you're asking him to play like Drew Brees and it's kind of just like this robot processing way of playing quarterback, but he has one of the greatest physical skill sets we've ever seen at the position.

So I do think that whatever Jim Harbaugh and that staff have done, where they've let him loose a little bit more and just the style that he's playing with, that is one of the reasons that we have seen a different version of Justin Herbert. What do you think of this theory? I think you're right on. Yeah, I mean, like go back and and rewatch the, the TV copy or the tape and watch his celebration after the rushing touchdown. I mean, he's like high and tight running that like running to the sideline.

So here's what I think is happening. Jim Harbaugh is pushing Justin outside of his comfort zone from a personality standpoint. He's making him, he's making him stand up in front of the team and talk to the team, which is not Justin. Like after after the Titans win, I believe, he was like, Justin just talk to us, you know? And Justin's like, that's not who he is. And I've asked Justin about this. I'm like, is it like, it's, like, it's, I'm like, it's, I'm,

must be hard for you because Jim is obviously this like alpha quarterback, you know, 15 years in the league. And he wants you to be that. But that's not really your personality. He's like, yeah, but, you know, he's pushing me, you know, outside my comfort zone. And that's really unlocking parts of his personality. You see it in how he talks to us. You see it in how he's celebrating on the field, you know, the first down, you know, all that stuff. And what it is is now it's pushing him out of his comfort zone as a player as well. So you do like I think that's probably the gym's approach. I don't want to put words in his mouth, but like, you know, push him outside of his comfort zone personality wise. And then that becomes, you know, pushing him outside of his comfort

zone as a player. And that means a little bit more risk. Now he's thrown one pick all season. Like, he's still really good at protecting the ball. But like, I think you are seeing more, a more aggressive person across the board in terms of how he's celebrating, how he's invigorating the team and also how he's pushing the ball downfield. I don't even know if it's recklessness. It's looseness. Just like how willing he is to scramble, the way he's moving around the pocket. It just feels like he's not white knuckling things in the way that it seemed like he was at times over the last couple years, where you could see all of the underlying qualities that would make this guy a special player, but there just seemed like there was a tightness to the way that he was operating the way the offense was operating,

that it wasn't allowing him to reach that level. And I do think that this offense and what they've been asking of him and pushing him outside of that comfort zone has kind of allowed us to reach this point. So it's been very cool to see. I think that you can kind of feel that across the entire Chargers roster and just the way that the building and the organization feels since Jim Harbaugh got there. I'm sure you and I will have that conversation at a different point in time here over the next six months or so because I do think it is a massive story in the league, guys like that changing these buildings for the better. But for now, Daniel Popper sincerely appreciate the time, sir. Always great to chat with you.

Thanks for having me. All right, guys, before we get to Dane, we're going to take a quick break. Joining us now, it is our draft expert here at the athlete. It's Dan Bruegler. Dan, how you doing, man? What's up, Robert? How are you? Doing okay. Well, we're getting a little deep in the process for you now. I feel like things have crystallized a little bit since the last time we talked. It was about a month into the NFL season.

So, you know, you think you know how the big board is ultimately going to shake out. But now that we're cruising toward Thanksgiving, getting near the end of the college football season, feels like things have probably started to settle a little bit in your mind the way they weren't in early September. Yes and no. Because this is the part of the calendar where, you know, we've got a lot of the tape and a lot of what the evidence that we're going based off of, it's we have. And so a lot of these grades are being finalized right now, both for myself and around the league. You look at, you know, NFL scouts, area scouts, they have to get in their final reports here in the next two weeks to their to their teams. And so this is the time of the calendar where it's kind of like that, just that last sprint.

And for players, for college players, this is the time for, hey, this is a chance to make my last, you know, audition and, you know, final statement, closing argument for why my grade should be maybe a little bit better than what you initially saw in September or whatever. So I will say this is going to be maybe the most polarizing draft class that I've ever been a part of. I've been doing this the last 15 plus years. It's a very polarizing group that I think there's going to be just such a wide range of opinions on so many different guys. And it starts with the quarterbacks. All right. So now you're wet in my appetite here. Let's start just on a broader level before we get into the quarterback specifically.

What about this class overall do you think is going to drive that sort of polarization of opinions? Just that in my opinion, there's the Travis Hunter is the number one player in this draft. the wide receiver corner and even that's a little bit unsettled because we're not sure exactly what his role will be in the NFL and it will depend on who drafts him and there's plenty of conversation

with that but I think he is the best player in this draft after him I think someone's number two player in this draft could be another team's number 12 player I just think like the first

I don't know 14 15 players in this draft are going to be all over the place I think in past years For most years. Well, I mean, okay, let's just say for last year, for example, when we knew Marvin Harrison Jr. was going to be a top five pick all through the process. We knew Malik neighbors is going to go somewhere in the top seven.

Joe Alt, same type. You know, that wasn't like a big question mark. This year, after, you know, Travis Hunter, then it's like, okay, well, who's the next best player? Who's the blue chipper? I love Mason Graham, the defensive tackle from Michigan, but he's not a, of Quinn and Williams type of prospect. So is he really, should he be a top five player?

I think he's going to be 10, 11, 12 for other teams. You know, you look at the wide receivers in this class. Ted McMillan from Arizona, Luther Burton from Missouri. Both these guys are good players, but they're not on the level of what we saw last year. So it's like, okay, teams are going to look at them a little bit differently because of the strengths they have. The past rushers in this class are fascinating because they all have warts for different. reasons. And so different schemes are going to look at these guys differently.

You know, take Georgia, for example, they've got two guys in their front seven. McKell Williams, who six five, two hundred sixty five pounds, his arms, 35 and a half. I mean, just, it's a Trevon Walker situation almost where I was going to say the Jags are picking in the top ten, baby. Exactly. The traits are off the, off the charts. And so it's like, okay, one team's going to look at a McKell Williams, who he's been banged up a little bit, but the production's not there. If you watch certain plays, you see, okay, yeah, top 10 pick, easy. But then you watch the body of work and the impact is not there. And so that's going to be a fluid situation.

Then the other Georgia player I was referencing was Jalen Walker, who's an offball linebacker for them. They don't let him rush more than nine, ten times a game, but it's what he does best. And so I think some teams are going to look at Jalen Walker and say, hey, that's an edge rusher. But we haven't seen him do it consistently. So where do we feel comfortable drafting. There's just going to be a lot of differing opinions on this class, especially compared to what we've seen the last few years. While we're doing the edge rushers, you have Abdul Carter as your third overall player from Penn State on your most recent big board. What would his warts be?

He was an offball linebacker up until this year. It was kind of like the Micah Parsons thing and he wears number 11 from Penn State. Is he, you know, what is he? Is he, because he's a freak athlete. Do you want to be moving? him around the front seven? Can he put his hand on the ground and just be a straight rusher? He is a little bit undersized, 6-3, 250, and that's just not going to be a top-five pick for everybody. So, and teams have to figure out, too, okay, how coachable is he in terms of being a true edge rusher for us and what we want our edge rushers to do? So this is a class where, again, Abdul Carter for some teams, I think, will be a top five pick. Other teams, he might not be a

top 10 pick. He'll be just outside. of that because yeah he has the freaky skills but there's some other things that they have question marks about and we're comparing this to last year and you and i were talking a little bit before we started recording and i think that that contrast is really useful here you know last year we have roma dunzaa being picked at the back half of the top 10 you've olivashana going 11th last year and i know it's been an up and down rookie season for him when he has gotten put into the lineup but this is somebody we were hyping up like his sophomore year at penn state like that's the sort of prospect he was for a huge majority of his college career he went outside the top

10. You got guys like Jared Verse going in the back half of the top 20, and now he's the most impactful rookie defender we've probably seen since Michael Parsons, you know, from a front seven perspective. And so it just seems like when you're comparing it to last year, especially, the gap between the quality of that class and the quality of this class is pretty stark. And I think the best example of that is when you look at the offensive line. Last year, how many tackles did we have in the first round? And this year, like Amarius Mims, if you were in this draft class. Say he went back to school to Georgia for a senior year and he was in this draft class, top five pick, easy. The way he's played this year for the Bengals, if you put that on

Georgia's team this year, easy top five pick. But he was, what, the 18th pick last year. And, you know, the top tackle this year who, you know, for me, it's Will Campbell, the left tackle from LSU, who some teams like him inside a guard or even center because, you know, they're right around 33-inch arms. You know, they don't love necessarily how he fits a tackle for them. but if we look at last year's tackle class and put Will Campbell in last year's tackle class, as he go before or after Tyler Guyton, you know, who was like the 27th pick to the Cowboys. So it's just, it's a really interesting, if you combine last year's first round and this year's first round, it's, you know, you go through the, and you if you go through like the top 20 players overall,

it'll be dominant, top 25, top 30, it'll be dominated by 2024 prospects compared to 2025. guys. Is that a little bit disappointing with Will Campbell? I know people kind of in the offensive lion scouting community were excited about him coming into the year. Has he really not fulfilled some of the promise that people might have expected from him heading into this season? And it speaks to really LSU's offense as a whole

and the offensive line as a whole. But he's a good player. I don't want to make it sound like he's, you know, all of a sudden a bum and can't play. He's my top offensive lineman in this class. He just missed my top 10 and over in my top 50. It felt like it was more of a no-brainer thing than that heading into this year, though, and the way that people were talking about him last year.

I just remember in the discussions about Jane Daniels and about and about Malik neighbors, just like, oh, the tackles for LSU, like those guys are studs. Like, just wait until they get drafted next year. It feels like that conversation shifted a little bit, even if he is still your top offensive linemen on the board. Yeah, and I think it's easy to do because I think when, you know, you're focusing on Jane Daniels or the receivers, and out of the corner of your eye, you see this awesome tackle who's doing good things. I think it's, we're all guilty of that. But then when you really focus in on how they're playing and performing, it's like,

oh, okay, well, you know, you wish this and this. And with Will Campbell, there's a lot of things alike. I mean, he reminds me a lot of kind of like a Jake Matthews, but he's actually a better finisher. Like there's a little more grit to how he plays. But again, he's right around 33 inch arms. He's still young. He's 20 years old.

He showed up as a freshman and he started right away at left tackle. So three years starter, a young play. player and you think he's going to get better. At the very least, even if you do have to kick him inside to guard, he's going to be an NFL starter for a long time. But in terms of last year's tackle class and how strong and deep it was, especially in the first round, it's just a big difference compared to this year who Will Campbell's my top tackle.

And then, you know, Kelvin Banks from Texas is a guard for me. Some view him as a tackle, but he hasn't played up to a top 10 level. he's more of a mid to late first round pick for a lot of teams view him and some teams view him inside at guard, some at tackle. His teammate at Texas, you know, Cam Williams, he's not anywhere near. It's kind of like the Ameris Mim situation where he's just not ready, but he's not as freaky as Mims was.

So it's a tackle class that is really rough, especially when you compare it to last year's group. I don't want to, excluding Ashton Jentie from this conversation, because we're going to talk about him a little bit later. If you're looking at your top 15 outside of Travis Hunter, who's the guy you would plant your flag next to? I know it's situation dependent, but a guy,

if you were just starting a team from scratch, you're like, this is probably the guy I would feel the best about outside of Travis Hunter. I mean, I think it'd be disingenuous of me to not say like my number two player, which would be Will Johnson the corner from Michigan. But I will say maybe like one of my favorite players is Malachi Stark's, the safety from Georgia,

just because he's so diverse with different things he can do. I mean, he'll man to man against a slot receiver. He'll play single high. They'll play him in the post. He could probably play corner on the outside, no problem. Good size, great kid. He was a big-time track athlete growing up. I mean, he's like a 10-5-100-meter guy.

So the speed and the testing is going to be off the charts. The ball skills are tremendous. So, you know, we saw Kyle Hamilton maybe get bumped down a little bit. had that top 10 safety. Yeah, well, and that was ridiculous. But yeah, we haven't had a top 10 safety in a while. It feels like Starks, it would just, it would be hard for him to fall out of the top 10, especially in this year's class.

Yeah, I think it's, you know, I'm sure we do this more than I do this. I'm guilty of this because I'm looking at it through more of an NFL lens than somebody like you or a scout is. But I always just inevitably look at it based on, all right, what's happened recently that might reshape the way that I'm seeing these guys. and I feel like the Brian Branch slide and the Kyle Hamilton slide and the fact that those are two of the best 20 defensive players in the league now probably should inform the way that teams are thinking about those nebulous position players in the back seven.

I don't know. It's still confusing why, because it's not like safeties are not easy to find. It's not like the running back conversation where you can find a lot of running backs that can give you a certain level at the position. It's hard to find those guys at safety. So, you know, Kyle Hamilton, I understand a little bit just because he was so different. The Brian Branch one still boggles by my, it's just hard to comprehend. But I do think your point is spot on with a guy like Starks who just kind of checks every box. He might not be looked at as, you know, a true top five guy, but it's just going to be hard for him to fall too far in this class.

I think the difference is. There's a difference between, I'm trying to think of a good example here, of a guy who's like a solid NFL safety, but he's more of a replaceable cog on the way that based on the way that he's used. Like, Grant Delpy, the Browns? Yeah,

like Alohi Gilman is like somebody you can find all over the place. But when you can walk a guy down and he can play man coverage in the slot, that is a different level of value. And so I think some of these guys, whether it's Hamilton, Brian Branch, the way that Devin Witherspoon is doing things for the Seahawks. Like,

that's just a different tier of player. And so I think if you can drop down and do that, that changes the conversation beyond just being a safety to being more of a diverse defensive back that warrants that sort of investment from a team. And based on your conversation here, it sounds like Malachi Stark is that sort of guy. That's the thing. You can see him do, and Georgia uses him all over the secondary. He's been doing it since he was a starter the moment he showed up in Athens as a freshman.

So he's been doing it in the last three years. And he's a guy that you could tell right away. His first game as a freshman, you could tell right away, all right, that's a dude. He's different and he has not disappointed. I mean, he hasn't been perfect. Alabama taped this year. There were a few misses. But all in all, the body of work with the guy like Malachi Starks,

that's somebody you won on your team. Maybe the biggest gap between last year's class and this year's class, the offensive lineman notwithstanding, is what's going on at quarterback. Because we had three guys go top three last year. And then the guys that went after them, Bo Nix has looked great. We'll talk about Bo Nix. I mean, we've had really good quarterback play. when you consider all of the factors from that class last year.

And you started your piece about your recent Big Board two weeks ago with the text that you got from a scout, essentially saying good luck in trying to stack up this year's quarterback class when you told him that's what you were doing. So let's just have an honest conversation about what we're talking about with the 2025 quarterback class here. Yeah, and it's been difficult to talk about this group in season because they've been so inconsistent week to week.

And that says something about these quarterbacks as a whole. But when you focus on the body of work, it's, I don't think any of these guys come close to the top three that we had last year. I mean, that's my opinion. That's also, I mean, I've yet to talk to an NFL scout or exec who would disagree with that. It just feels like there's more risk involved with this group, more ways for it not to work out as opposed with, you know,

even a guy like, you know, Drake May, who we'll talk about more later too. Yeah, there are some areas of his game that are a little reckless and it doesn't look picture perfect, but the strengths far outnumbered the weaknesses. And you're like, this is just, it's going to work because he's so dang talented.

This year, it's not quite like that. So, all right, let's just, history tells us a quarterback, at least one, if not two, multiple, are going to go top 10. And it's going to be really interested to see how that gets tested this year, especially with teams like the Giants,

the Raiders. Plenty of teams are going to need quarterback at the top 10. In my opinion, the quarterback who is the favorite right now to be the first drafted is Miami's Cam Ward. He's already had the best season of any quarterback in school history based on the stats. The production has been there. He leads college football in first downs, plays a 20 plus yards. And then when you look at the traits, he's got a whip of an arm, quick setup, quick release, love is a loosiveness in the pocket.

And then NFL scouts, they speak really highly of him as a person, the leader, the confidence, the steady heartbeat. But when things are, when things are on schedule, he's really productive. When things get off schedule, that's when it gets interesting.

Because he's a very loose player, which is what you love about him because it allows him to improvise and he'll create. And there'd be some amazing plays that he puts on film. But it also leads to a lot of YOLO plays where he's taking unnecessary sacks,

low percentage risks. This past Saturday, perfect example. He had a pretty good performance against Wake Forest, but there were two to three plays that are just baffling, including there's an impromptu pitch where he's climbing, escaping the pocket. He finds the running back and just pitches it, and running back wasn't looking for it, the pitch was a little bit off,

the results in interception. And so it's a double-edged sword with Ward because you have to live with it. His ability to create is something that leads to explosive plays. it'll also leave the negative plays. And I think some teams are going to look at that and see the more optimistic side, which is his ability to create the improvising skills. And I think the other thing that teams are optimistic about is just the progress that he has shown, the development.

Because in high school, he was a wingtie quarterback. And then what he was asked to do at Incarnate Word and then Washington State and now at Miami, he's gotten better each year, incrementally better. He hasn't plateaued. He hasn't taken a step back. it's been, the progress has been encouraging. So that's, you know, in the column of why, you know, we should believe in Cam Ward. However, I think there are we other teams that are going to be not as optimistic.

And they're going to see some of those concerns we just talked about and say, yeah, we like him, but we're just not going to roll the dice in the top half of round one. And I think another factor too is the ACC, the defenses in the ACC are bad, plain and simple. The best defense Miami has faced this year, probably Georgia Tech, which was the only loss for them on the schedule so far. So I would love to see Miami make the college football playoffs this year So we could see Ward against a Georgia, an Ohio state, a defense that's that's more in line with what we're gonna see or what he'll see on Sundays That's an interesting style player to talk about and with how I wanted to frame this conversation So I want to compare that to what you've seen from Chodor Sanders before I take this a little bit wider

So if you were trying to compare that ward is a prospect where the flashes are there at the high level players there, but you're worried about some of the downsides. How does that compare to, like, the archetype of prospect that Shadur Sanders is at this point? All right. So I've learned the last few months that if you say anything negative about Shadur Sanders, you officially hate him. There's no room for nuance. Why is this, by the way?

I don't know. Why is there, like, this super vocal Shadur Sanders community? Is it all, like, the Dion factor of this? Are there a ton of Colorado fans out there? Like, why is this happening? Yeah, I don't, I think people, think like if you say anything negative, you're just taking shots when it's just, it's more contextualized analysis more than anything. I don't know why it's in either you love them or hate

them type of thing. But all right, we're going to try and thread the needle here. Here's where I'm at with Sanders. And this is what I've kind of consistently been saying all season. When you study the tape, you see a player who is tough, poised, and accurate. Three pretty important factors to start in the NFL. So I don't think this is a question about is, Sanders a good quarterback or not. He is a good quarterback and I think he can be a starter in the NFL, but we're putting him under the top five overall microscope because that's how we're talking about him.

That's how I think when you look at this class in particular, you kind of have to look at them through that lens and that's where it gets a little more complicated. So like I said, tough, accurate, good place to start. I think he has very average physical traits, which I think can be problematic with the way he likes to play. The comparison that I've been saying, and look, this isn't perfect. It's not a perfect comp. It's not an apples to apples comp, but I'm trying to paint a picture. He reminds me of Jordan Love, but without the top tier physical traits. So the main reason for that comp is the style in which they play. They like to bounce around, back pedal at times, keep the weight on the

back foot, try and access all these different throwing platforms to keep things alive. And it's just very similar to Jordan Love except, okay, the key difference, Jordan Love has these physical traits that he can get away with it. Sanders is 6-1, maybe 207, he has a B-level arm, the ball does not jump off his hand the same way. And let me emphasize that, like, that's not saying he has a bad arm. There are plenty of, you know, NFL quarterbacks that have B-level arms. It's just not an A-level arm like Jordan Love. And they don't play like Jordan Love. That's one of the reasons Jordan Love can get away playing like that.

He is one of like the most elastic, ridiculously springy arms in the NFL. And Sanders is athletic, but he's not, there's a little bit more stiffness to his throwing, the way he throws. So with the way Sanders likes to play, the pocket movements are very sporadic. Sometimes it looks good. Sometimes, oh, you're climbing, you're shuffling. It works. Other times he's running himself into sacks. He's holding the ball too long.

There are times where he just backpedals 10 yards behind the line of scrimmage. and there's nothing offensive tackles can do to help him at that point. So we're going to hear a lot throughout the process about Colorado's bad offensive line, which is not a great offensive line, but a lot of these sacks that we're seeing on film, they belong to the quarterback. So to summarize Shador, I like him. I think he's going to be an NFL starting quarterback,

and very likely a first-round pick and top 15 pick. But there are aspects to his game. I think that are going to give evaluators, cause in terms of what we think his ceiling could be as a top five guy. And the other part about that, the sack comparison, Jordan Love doesn't take sacks. That is one aspect of Jordan Love's game. Jordan Love does not get sacked. His pressure to sack where has been one of the lowest in the league in each of the last

couple seasons. I'm going to ask you a divisive question here that is potentially dangerous, but you'll see why I'm doing it in a second. If you were comparing Chardua Sanders as a prospect to Bo Nix as a prospect, who would you have ranked higher? Yeah, and see, it's so tough to do this when... I know this is an unfair question, but you'll see why I'm doing it in a second.

No, well, it's tough to do because, like, I just got done watching the last three games of Bo-Nix. So it's, like, so fresh in my mind that it's tough to separate that from where we were thinking about him at Oregon. But I do think that, like, Knicks probably is a better athlete. And Shadur, I think, does a good job of avoiding sacks. He does it so much that he does avoid a lot of sacks. He also takes a lot of sacks.

You know, you could tell, like, he was just playing at a different level that final year. Because I think they're similar in the ways that they know where to go with the football. You know, they know where the routes are going to come open. Sometimes they know they have to hold the ball a little bit long for that route to come open. And they can get away from pressure. It just, it looks a little bit different. and Nix is doing it a much better job this year using that athleticism. But if you're going to stack them, it would be really tough.

I mean, I guess I would probably have Shador slightly ahead, just based off of strictly what we thought of them as prospects. I would probably have Shador slightly ahead of Bo Nix. They're the same zip code, though, in your mind. In terms of, yeah, not necessarily Apple's apples players, but in terms of draft grades and, you know, guys that you think, okay, yeah, these are NFL starters, but are we really sure they're going to be top 10 quarterbacks in the NFL? Because if you don't think he's going to be a top 10 quarterback in the NFL, you don't draft them top 10 overall.

So, yeah, I think that that's fair to say because there's going to be a lot of differing opinions on, and it's, you know, we'll talk more about Bo Nix later. But where these guys end up, obviously when the moment Bo Nix went with Sean Peyton, it was like, okay, yeah, there's a good chance this is going to work out. Shadur Sanders, if he goes to, I don't know, the Raiders or a situation where it's just not set up to succeed, all of a sudden, that could go south quickly. And, you know, it's, it makes for a complicated evaluation. Here's why I'm asking you the question. I think the Sean Payton part of this is really important. Bo Nix probably wasn't that guy either coming into the draft. Or it's like, oh, he's probably not a top 10, play quarterback in the league.

So how can you draft him in the top 10? That's when you're doing things in a vacuum. NFL teams don't operate in vacuums, right? if you're the Raiders and the Giants sitting there in the top five, you need a quarterback. If you were the Broncos heading into this year's draft and heading into the 2024 season, because of the dead money from the Russell Wilson deal, you needed a cheap rookie contract quarterback. You needed to get on that timeline to make everything else make sense. And I think you could make a kind of similar argument for where the Giants and the Raiders are right now.

So is it worth taking the shot to find a starting level quarterback even if you think the ceiling isn't necessarily that high? I would say for the Broncos right now, that has been worth it with Bo Nix. Maybe we get to a point two, three years from now where you see the gap between Bo Nix and the elite quarterbacks in the NFL and you think, and maybe this wasn't worth it. But right now, I think you can justify the choice. And I'm just wondering if for a certain team in the top five or in the top 10, if Shador Sanders is that sort of prospect and that sort of potential solution if you've painted yourself into a little bit of a corner. And this is why we started this podcast by saying it's going to be the most poll. polarizing draft that I think I've ever been a part of because the answer to that question, yeah, it's going to be different from every team.

And they're going to look at their offense and say, yeah, we, we add Shadur Sanders to this. We might have something. You know, we can have an offense that is going to move the ball up and down the field. He's going to give us a chance to win where other teams are going to look at it and say, I just, I don't think it's going to be a fit. And something else that scouts bring up with Shador is it's when, because this is a guy who, like, he's very, very, very. confident. He is very much like his dad, where when you're winning and everything's going great,

it's okay. It's infectious. And everyone, you know, it's something that works really well when you're losing. And, you know, after the Nebraska loss earlier this year, one of their, you know, few losses Colorado has had, you know, he made some remarks about his offensive line and said, what do you want me to do? You know, like, this is, he basically put his offensive line under the bus. And it's like, okay, when things aren't working out in the NFL, or, you know, there's a, say you have three straight losses or something, is that going to be a problem in the locker room? And so that's, I don't know enough about Shador to answer that, but that is something that NFL scouts bring up when you talk about Shador Sanders. So it at least has to be part of the conversation as we

kind of peel back the layers of what Shador is going to be at the next level, what's it going to look like. And yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I think in a perfect world, we wouldn't really evaluate quarterbacks from the outside looking in until after they were drafted. Because it changes so much, right? The situation they go into and, you know, what we think about it and where Shador ends up could change how we think his outlook is going to be as a rookie. Also, we wouldn't draft quarterbacks in the top 10 if we didn't think they were top 10 prospects, but we know that's not how it goes. You have, there's self-preservation things that go into this. You have to have an answer to ownership.

It's like, this is our answer. This is what we're going to do over the next few years. Even if you don't think that's the best possible solution. And this draft, there isn't going to be a good solution. So some team is going to do this because they think they need to do it. And I think Bo Nix was kind of a similar thing. What ever, Sean Payton is going to tell you he was the best quarterback in the draft the whole time.

But I think that in a vacuum, Bo Nix is probably that sort of solution for the Broncos, where it's like, we need to do something. This is the guy that we think we can get to a workable place. Let's do this. And I wonder if some of these quarterbacks in the top 10 end up being similar sorts of landing spots for teams in that place as an organization. Well, and what you said was so key about ownership. And fans need to realize that first round quarterbacks, that's an ownership pick. They have very much a thumb on the scale with how that works.

And I'm fascinated by the college football playoff this year. if, let's say Cam Ward and Shador Sanders, they both have a chance to be a part of that. We'll see over the next two weeks. But I'm hoping they are because I want to see them on that type of stage. And it kind of changes things because, you know, if an owner sees a guy like Shador Sanders

have a big game in a playoff game like that, all of a sudden, that matters. Regardless of what the scouts have been putting in the work and doing all this, like that, the owner is really impressed by what, a certain quarterback did on a big stage game. I mean, if Michael Pennix doesn't have that 430 passing yard performance against Texas in the college football playoffs last year, does he still go top 10?

We'll never know for sure. I think the answer to that is no. The college football playoff, expanding to 12 teams, opens up a lot of different avenues for quarterbacks to kind of change the narrative. Cam Ward could do it in Miami if he goes and just, you know, think about to C.J. Stroud. We always liked C.J. Stroud as a prospect. No one disliked him as a player.

It was like, okay, but is he truly a top three guy, someone that you should consider at number one overall? Because things were not easy, but things were easier against a big time schedule. They were clean for the most part. Until that Michigan game and that Northwestern game to an extent that year, things were very clean for C.J. Stroud in that offense. But it was the Georgia game, that performance, that changed everything. That was what he did, even though it came in a loss, the way.

way C.J. Stroud performed where he had to move his feet. He had to work around the rush. He showed a little bit more of his athleticism. It was like, okay, C.J. Stroud, yeah, sign me up. This guy is the truth. And, you know, should be in the conversation for number one overall. That Georgia game changed everything. And so I think the college football playoff now being 12 teams and expanding the field, we have a lot more possibilities for quarterbacks to change the narrative. You alluded to this a little bit when we were talking about. Shador, but now that we have a sense of who's probably picking in the top 10, we'll have some shuffling around, but I think that the overall draft order directionally, we understand now.

Are there any other mock draft pairings that you've just had a hard time getting out of your head right now? Well, okay, we'll stick with Shador. I just, the Los Vegas Raiders, it's just too obvious. We know that there's a Tom Brady and Shadur relationship, obvious connection there. You think about Mark Davis and how much he likes to market the Raiders. And this is an owner who has an eye on, okay, how are we going to boost this brand and boost this football team? And Chador, I think he's just going to be cat in it for Mark Davis. And then let's take it a step further. What would happen if, okay, there might be a head coach opening this offseason. Dion has coached Chodor every single year. In high school, he was his offensive coordinator.

coaching four years in college, two at Jackson State, two at Colorado. Could we even see it go that far? So even if we don't see it go that far, I still think Chodor with whatever head coach in Vegas, it's a hard connection to avoid when you're trying to do a projection this far out. This isn't your beat, again, putting you in a bad spot even asking you, do you think that that's a realistic possibility that we see Dian as an NFL head coach next year? this is so far removed from my purview that like i have zero opinion on it but you're a little bit closer to it Antonio pierce was a uh is a head coach with very little i mean he doesn't have that

much more NFL experience i mean he was a college coach for a lot of years he was a high school coach before that so i mean it's it's at least possible it's at least something that some teams might think about and i mean deion's won wherever he's gone and you think about what he's done the last two years at Colorado, he won at Jackson State. You know, he at least has an NFL background where he's been in NFL locker rooms all throughout his career. He knows how things work. So I'm not going to say it's likely, but I'm not ruling it out as a possibility of a team, you know, at least bring him in for an interview and then, you know, they might look at their options and say, hey, you know what? Let's see how this works out. And especially the Raiders,

It just seems like it's a, it's something that at least needs to be talked about. Yeah. Again, if you're talking about branding and talking about marketing the franchise, I think that's a very quick way to do it. Very few head coaches would allow you to get that sort of heat and that sort of juice in the way that Dion Sanders would. Any other pairings in the top 10 that you felt like you've kept coming back to at this point in the process? Two more.

The Cowboys, I think the obvious pairing with Dallas is going to be Ashen Gentie. We'll talk more about him in a sec. But I think you look at it and like Rico Dattel's, and fine. The other thing that's part of the conversation is this running back class, it might be the deepest we've seen in a long, long time. It might be the deepest position in this draft. There's going to be, I would say, double-digit running backs drafted in the second to fourth round range this year. And so just another reason not to take a running back in the first round. And this team has so many needs on both sides of the ball. And I think you look at

Mason Graham, defensive tackle for Michigan. Cowboys fans are rolling their eyes right now because Taco Charlton, Mazzis Smith. myth. I get it, but let's not Helmut Scout here. Mason Graham is one of the best players in this draft, just pure stop. You don't like to put the word safe on any of these guys, but it's just it's a hard, it's hard to look at Mason Graham and see him not making it as at least a very good NFL starter. He's a leverage-based player, strong hands, makes an impact versus a run against the pass. Like I said, he's not a Quinn and Williams type of disruptor, that caliber. of prospect, but he should come in from day one and make a positive impact. So Cowboys, Mason

Graham, that one makes a lot of sense. And then Patriots and Ted McMillan, the wider receiver from Arizona. We know New England this offseason. They're going to make upgrades around their quarterback. Top wide receiver and Freedency probably going to be T. Higgins. Let's say that doesn't work out. Arizona's McMillan, he's basically T. Higgins in this draft class. He's not a burner, average separation, but the ball skills are exceptional. He's got this, I don't know, Gumby-ish body control where he's making these crazy catches. He high points everything,

catches everything away from his body. It reminds me a lot of T. Higgins with the way he wins at the catch point. So the idea of pairing May and T-Mack together, I think that would be a lot of fun. I want, to me, the best possible outcome for them still. How much cap space do you think the Patriots have in 2025 right now? Over under 60 million. I'm going to double that?

More than double that. It's $132 million. Jeez. So typically. They get some spending to do. So and there's a chance based on where their roster is right now. And we'll see. You know, Drake May, we do this all the time where we look at these teams and we think that they're horrendous free agent destinations.

Why would anyone want to go there? One thing dictates free agency more than any. anything else. Money. Money dictates where players go in free agency. If you're willing to pay a tax, guys will go there. You know what comes second after money? If there's tiebreakers, quarterbacks.

So even if New England seems like this horrendous outcome for anybody, I think that the combination of them being able to outspend anybody they want to for certain players and the fact that the quarterback has looked good makes it maybe more attractive than people might think at first glance. So the fact that they can throw around anything they want for a guy like T. Higgins, being able to do that with a tackle in the first round, that still feels like the ideal outcome for me and New England. And mostly because the T. Higgins skill set, like you just said,

with Drake May, sign me up for that. I want that. I want a guy who's going to go get the ball for Drake May. So if they can double dip with a T and a tackle, that's great. But if they miss out on T, the fact that there's somebody that's bringing that to the table in your mind, I'm into that. I want to see what that would look like. And it's because Josh Downs was kind of that guy for Drake May two years ago at North Carolina.

And of course, Josh Downs is not like, you know, he's more of an undersized slot player. He's a really good player. I love Josh Downs. Josh Downs is a phenomenal football player, but he's not built like T. Higgins. Exactly. So you give Drake May a guy like T. Higgins who has that type of catch radius and we'll go up and get the football. And, you know, he's, yeah, he's a four or five athlete, but it's what he does at the catch point. And we know Drake May is not scared of, you know,

throwing to smaller windows and maybe taking some chances. And so the pairing works perfectly. But exactly. If they come away with either T. Higgins or McMillan, I think, yeah, the Patriots offense will be significantly better next year with just that one addition at receiver. Why I think that T. Higgins' path in free agency is the more appealing one, is that players like T. Higgins don't usually hit free agency.

Like, think about the 1B receivers. in the NFL over the last couple years. Those guys are getting monster contracts. Jalen Waddle, Devante Smith. The only reason that the Bengals can't do that for T. Higgins is because they are the Bengals. So I always want to know when a guy's hitting free agency, why is he hitting free agency? With T. Higgins, very easy. Very easy to tell that story.

There aren't tackles of T. Higgins caliber that hit free agency. They don't. Those guys do not hit the market. So I think they're trying to find the tackle in the draft and be able to hopefully get T in free agency. that would be ideal for the Patriots, but obviously that's a very narrow needle to thread. We kind of touched on this a little bit when I was talking about Brian Branch and Kyle Hamilton. But I wanted to ask you if there's anything that's happened during this NFL season

that has kind of re-contextualized the way that you've looked at this draft class, whether it's positional value or certain archetypes of players succeeding. Is there anything that's happened on the field in the pros this year that has kind of made you rethink the way that you've looked at this draft class? Well, you know, and I don't know that's made me necessarily rethink as it's making me really intrigued on just the domino effect. Because one of the hot topics right now, obviously, you look at the running backs and just look at the top, the rushing leaders in the NFL right now. Sequin Barclay, Derek Henry, both over 1,300 yards, both on the open market this year. Josh Jacobs, he was third.

And he was available as a free agent. And then even fourth on the list is Jemir Gibbs. and that pick was panned when the Lions drafted him 12th overall in that class. And obviously the Lions have no regrets about making that pick. So the whole idea of maybe the market over-correcting itself in terms of top-tier running backs, how is that going to affect Ash and Genti, where he's drafted, how early? Because you could argue he is the best player in this draft after Travis Hunter. And when you look at the top 20 draft order,

I don't think there's a lot of obvious landing spots. The Cowboys, again, they're going to get brought up a lot because we know they love Boise players, they have drafted running backs early in the past. Their offense could really use a weapon like that, but they have so many needs. Let's just take Dallas off the table, say they're not drafting Genty in the first round.

I mean, you look at it, yeah, the Raiders are a potential spot, but they need a quarterback and so much more. The Browns, they could, be in the running back market with, we'll see what happens with Nick Chub, but I don't think that front office is drafting a running back top 10 overall. Nick Chub was an exception for how they wanted to view that position, I think. Even if you look at the Nick Chub contract when it was signed, it was still a step down when it comes to resource allocation for that position. No question. You have a few teams that

are kind of on the fringe where the Cardinals, for example, they have a lot of other needs as they kind of build that roster. But at what point is Genti just too good to pass up. And I know they drafted Trey Benson in the third round last year, but I don't think that alone is going to stop you from making the move. The one that's really interesting to me, the landing spot where I think if you're going to, because none of these teams you're going to argue are, oh, they are running back away from being a real contender. I don't think you're going to say that necessarily with any of these teams, but an interesting landing spot I think would be Washington. Let's say they finish around

pick, say, 22. Gentie falls to pick 15. Is that the type of aggressive move a team on the rise like Washington would make. I feel it's very similar when the Lions drafted Gibbs where, okay, running back's not the obvious top need, but to get a playmaker like that helps upgrade everything else. And I don't think it'd be crazy to see Washington or even, you know, like a Denver where if we have, we feel like we have our quarterback. Let's go make a splash.

Let's go get someone that helps everybody else on our offense. So a team like Washington, a team like Denver, make a little move up. up to go get a Gentie, to me, like, that's kind of what makes the most sense. And especially with what we've seen this year from, if you believe Gentie is a top-tier running back, I don't think that's a big price to pay. I've been thinking a lot about how I wanted to frame this discussion around the running backs in 2024 and how things have changed and how maybe we need to rethink some of the things that we've said over the last couple years.

I don't think you throw that stuff out the window, right? The entire conversation about running back value was rooted in this idea that, running backs cannot transcend their circumstances enough and cannot have enough stand-alone value to invest in a running back at that level. You need other things to be in the right place in order for the running back to succeed, so you have to put the other things in the right place first. That is still true. If you look at the teams that these running backs are on,

they're all on really good teams with really good offensive lines. Sequin Barkley did not look like this while playing for the Giants last year. And the place that I've landed, and I do think this metaphor actually works on a few different levels. The way that I'm thinking about these guys, Derek Henry, Sequin, Josh Jacobs to a certain extent, Jamir Gibbs is another very good example of this. They're accelerants, right? If you have a bottle of lighter fluid sitting on a desk, it doesn't help you very much, right? It's not doing anything. But if you've already started the fire, then things can get really out of control in a big hurry. And look at where the lions were when they drafted Jamir Gibbs. Everything else was there.

The fire had been started. The ravens. The fire had been started. the Eagles, the fire had been started. Everything else was in place. The Eagles and the Ravens specifically, and I think the Packers to an extent, but I think that their situation was a little bit more nuanced than this because they liked Aaron Jones, but he had enough deficiencies in certain areas where they moved on and went a slightly different direction. But for the Raiders, the Ravens and the Eagles last year, they just weren't getting enough

from the running backs. Everything else was set up. And if you're trying to separate the running back performance from the offensive line, the structure of the offense, that we were. We have stats for that. Those guys were not doing enough. Broken tackles, rush yards over-expected, all those sorts of things. Now they're on the exact opposite end of the spectrum because of what these guys have brought.

And the reason they were able to add them is because the market had dipped so low that even when applying resources to other positions, they could still afford these guys. So that's kind of where I'm where I've landed. This sort of running back, it should be last, not first. And if you can order it like that, then you were in a place to really throw some gasoline. on the fire. So the two teams that I threw out there with Washington and Denver, could you make a case that, okay, maybe a guy like Gentie is not the last piece, but are they far enough along with how they're building things that you can make an argument why that should be the move to go get

a running back like that? I think that Denver is a little bit further along because I like the offensive line more, just in a vacuum. I think the offensive line is in a better position. Washington, you know, they made smaller kind of marginal moves. but I think that we've started to see the gaps with a guy like Nick Allegretti, for example. If you were in Washington, I think spending a little bit more

on the interior offensive line heading into next year wouldn't necessarily be the worst idea. The team that I would throw out, and I know this probably won't happen but based on where they're drafting, but I think kind of falls in line with this conversation. What if you just dropped them on the Chiefs? Oh, gosh.

That's the exact type of situation I'm talking about here, where the Chiefs have this incredibly efficient running game. The offensive line is in a great spot. if you look at what they're doing down to down in the running game, it reminds me a little bit of what the Ravens and the Eagles were last year, but there's not enough explosion. The running back isn't lifting the rest of that unit. That would no longer be the case if you had somebody like this.

I don't think that he's going to be there when the She was draft. Yeah. It's what they wanted to do with Clyde Edwards-Hillair when they drafted him. That felt a little bit different to me though now. I feel like with that it was like a past-catching thing. We were like, oh man, if we had this past-catching element, what will we do? I think that's the wrong way to conceive of a running back. I think it's about, all right, if we know that we can get four and a half yards of carry every single time we run the ball

because of the quality of our offensive line and the structure of our offense, what if we add a guy who can take that baseline and just crank it up all the way? And that's exactly what's happened with Derek Henry and Saquan Barkley this year. And I think the chiefs are probably the best possible example for that sort of acceleration, even if it's probably going to be really difficult for them to land a guy like Gentie. That would be just unfair. Because again, you could make the argument that Gentie is the number two player in the draft, in my opinion. I mean, he is that good.

It's just a matter of where do you feel comfortable drafting him. You know, it's almost like when Quentin Nelson was coming out. Like, he was clearly one or two on everybody's boards, but you're just not going to take him one or two. And so, I mean, he still went sixth or whatever it was. But with Gentie, it's just a little tougher to figure out. And we went through this two years ago with Bejohn, Robinson where it was like, okay, if Philly doesn't draft him, I don't know who else is going to draft.

Okay, he still ends up going top 10, eight overall. There was a team that surfaced and it made sense for them, whether or not, you know, it was the right pick. That's irrelevant after the pick is made because that's what happened. How was that going to play out with Gentie? Could we see a surprise team enter the mix or is he still going to be around in that mid-first range where a team? a playoff team could make a realistic move to go get him.

That is going to be, I think, something we're talking about for the next five months. I also think this is another kind of hallway off of this conversation. One of the reasons that it's probably not worth taking a running back in the top 10, it's not about positional value. If you're a team picking in the top 10, you certainly haven't started that fire. You certainly don't have enough of a foundation where the running back can be one of the last things you'd take things over the top rather than one of the first things. So I don't think I've ever considered it that way, but it's like that is more why Saquan Barclay is the second overall pick isn't worth it if you are the Giants because you're not at the point in your build where a player like Saquan Barclay is actually going to be additive to what you're doing.

And that's kind of why I'm okay with the Giants walking away from Saquan Berkeley. Like teams aren't all in the same situation. Just because Saquan Barclay is doing this for the Eagles doesn't necessarily mean that moving on from Saquan Berkeley wasn't the right thing for the Giants to do even if it looks all. awful right now. Right. No doubt. And I mean, it's also a bummer because I don't know if we're ever going to see a team do hard knocks offseason again because of how that played out, which is a bummer because I really enjoyed it. But yeah, no, I don't think any team signing up for that after how it played out. But it was, I agree with you 100%. I think that's a, it's a good comparison to make. I just wonder how teams are going to view it now that, you know, we've seen. some running backs really lift some offenses because I think you're absolutely right in terms of the context of where those teams and those offenses are. But if there's a team that says, you know what,

maybe they overvalue their offense more than those of us in the outside and they think like, okay, we just add this little spark to our offense. It's going to make our whole offensive line better. I still think there's going to be enough GMs that think that way. And so it's going to make for some interesting debates as we kind of go through, once we have the finalized draft order, kind of go through, where's the landing spots for Gen T? It's going to be interesting. Yeah, I think that it's important to learn lessons from what's happened with Sequin and Derek

Henry. It's more important to learn the right lessons. I think that is going to be the challenge for team builders as we come out on the other side of this. All right, we're going to take a quick break and then we're going to get back with this week's categories. All right, we do this every week on the midweek show. You've done this before. You're the only repeat ball knower on the athletic football show this year. Three questions that we ask all of our guests. The first one, what is something that you know you know on Tuesday, November 26th about college football of the NFL? And I'll keep all my answers rookie related.

Perfect. Makes things easy. Yes. Something I know I know. There are plenty of tweets being deleted right now as we speak from eight months ago about Drake May being bad. Look, I miss on my fair share of quarterback. So I'm not going to pile on here.

But it just felt like with May. people weren't focusing on the right things with him. Yeah, does he get bounce happy at times with his feet? Sure. It never stopped him from being a productive passer. Would his arm get juiced up at times and he would miss some layups? Yeah, but his college tape, to me, showed an accurate quarterback. To me, the biggest valid criticism was some of the reckless decisions and tendencies.

He would press at times. And we've seen that in the NFL now with the Patriots, but it wasn't enough of a red flag where, you know, last year I think he had 10 turnover worthy plays. For comparison sake, this year, Cam Ward is already at like 15. So when you stack it all up, the strengths just far outweigh the weaknesses. It just overshadows it. And going back, I understand why some teams and evaluators had Caleb or Jane Daniels both ahead of May. I totally understand that.

But the tweets, all the tweets I got in the spring saying he's never going to be an NFL starter or he's not a top 10 pick. Now that we've seen a play out on the field, I just, it seems kind of ludicrous that people would think so low of May based off of what he put on film in college. It hasn't been great last week against the dolphins. You know, there are negative plays,

and sometimes he can make bad plays worse. For him to have the flashes that he's had and for him to look as competent and capable as he does in that situation is a fucking miracle. And I think that's Context matters. And I think that's, it's so hard to contextualize rookie quarterback play and to pull away what the situation is and what these guys are.

We've been doing it all year because of what was happening with Caleb Williams, what was happening with Jane Daniels. Look at Caleb Williams over the last two weeks compared to what it looked like with Shane Waldron. The one thing I feel very confident about is if you drop a quarterback, a rookie quarterback, into a bad situation. Objectively, bottom three pass protection in the NFL this year for New England. Not a good set of weapons. And that guy can still look like a functional NFL starter.

I would not bet against that guy being a 10-year quarterback in the week. That to me feels like the cleanest thing to say about any of these guys is I don't know if he'll be the best one. I don't know if it'll be better than Jane Daniels. I don't know if he'll be better than Caleb Williams. I know any of that stuff. I don't really care about that. I think that we've focused way too much on that. this year. But I think when you can look the way that Drake May has in those circumstances,

you are going to be a capable, functional NFL starter for a while. And I feel very confident saying that. Yeah. What happened with Bryce Young and Carolina where it was so bad to start and now it's getting a little bit better? That's more the norm of what happens when rookie quarterbacks go in those situations. So absolutely, what Drake has been able to do with that situation. If you're a Patriots fan, you are, you should be nothing but optimistic about. what it's going to look like in the near future as they build up things around him. There's no doubt. And I think that he, this isn't like a to our own horn thing.

Like I don't care about being right about quarterback prospects. I've said this a bunch of times. It's not my lane. It's not something I spend a lot of time on. I don't really have that strong of opinions on these guys. When I watched Drake May last year and the physical skill set he brings to the table, the ability to escape pressure, what he can do with his legs, sack mitigation, plus the arm talent.

It's just not a guy I would bet against. I don't know what the ceiling will look like and the floor and some of the negative plays are probably always going to be there but just as an overall package, this was a guy that was worth drafting in the top five at the end of the day and I think that he has shown us that

through 10 starts or whatever it's been less than that, eight starts. There's a reason the Patriots were not giving up that pick at number three. No matter of giants or whoever called. And their teams are willing to sell the farm to get it. There's a reason for that too. Exactly.

And the Patriots were dead set on taking that pick. So yeah, I totally understand that. Next one. What is something you think you know on November 26th? I think if the Jets drafted Brock Bowers at 11, Joe Douglas is still the GM. This is so spicy. Why do you say this?

You think that would be enough to have saved him? I do. Maybe he would still be fired at the end of the season, but it would not look this bad right now. Okay. I'm not saying, yeah, he's GM of the year. But the driving reason why they drafted Olu F's, Foshanoo is because he was perceived as the safer choice, right?

If anything was going to derail the Jets season, it was going to be issues on the offensive line and Foshanoo was going to give them protection there. Meanwhile, Bowers, he was the shiny toy, you know, the undersized tight end who, and look, to be fair, in most cases, tight ends, they take a little bit longer to traditionally turn out to have league success. But you look at a lot of the issues. He's not a tight end. exactly also true

but look a lot of the still the issues that the Jets have with quarterback are probably still going to be there no matter what and Fashnu might end up being a really good player in the long run I still believe that but in hindsight there's no question that the

2024 Jets offense would be better with Bauer's compared to Fashnu and I mean who knows that the win-lossi record would be any different probably not but the offense would be better in a way that just with the way Bowers opens the things things up in the passing game, his receiving skills. And I get it in hindsight. It's easy to

talk about draft picks. I mean, it's the ultimate form of Monday morning quarterbacking. But the situation was so unique because the Jets were in win now mode. And their choice came down to a pass catcher or a lineman because they even, they had conversations about moving up for Ruma Dunze. So in the moment, it felt like they went with the responsible choice. But in hindsight, threading the needle, because they're already threading a needle. In hindsight, they probably should have continued to try to thread that needle with a big bet like Bowers. It was probably the right way to go.

And I think the offense would look competent enough right now that Joe Douglas is still that GM. I think where we misconstrued this and where we went wrong and kind of trying to evaluate where the Jets were, we assume that Rogers would lift the ceiling. So it was more about protecting the floor. And that hasn't happened. so it's made the floor almost irrelevant. And I think that's kind of how we misjudged what the Jets needed in the moment

based on where they were as an organization. No, no, and that's fair. And it's, like I said, they tried to thread that needle so finely that it just, it made for one little misstep here, one little misstep there, and, you know, your quarterback not playing up to the level that you expected.

And it's a house of cards. And, you know, we're seeing how that's playing out right now. It's insane that all these guys are just on these Georgia teams. over the last couple years. Like you look at what Ladd McConkey and Brock Bowers are doing right now. Just an absurd amount of talent. And I'm looking at your top talent. There's like six more Georgia guys.

Yeah. Well, meanwhile, Carson Beck, who was my quarterback one coming into the year, uh, notice that we didn't even talk about him, uh,

in, in this conversation. I mean, he's a third round pick now and not having, uh, Brock Bowers or Ladd McConkey to throw to. Turns out, that's kind of bad.

It's not good. So, uh, maybe some things were, almost like quarterback context is important. Yeah. Imagine that. Even at a place,

like Georgia, not having two guys that are doing really well as rookies in the NFL. It turns out he misses those guys. Also, Todd Monkin was pretty good in those couple years that Todd Monkin was there. So the fact that he might be a head coach here in a couple of months. It speaks to the ecosystem that Georgia was dealing with for a good chunk of time there. Last one, what is something you still want to know as we sit here on November 26th? I want to know that if the Falcons could have a redo, would they draft Jared Verse at number eight overall? And this isn't even an anti-Michael Pennix topic. It just goes back to what we've said in the moment,

what we've said throughout the last how many months, the luxury of drafting a player you don't plan on seeing on the field for a couple of years when there are clear needs on the roster. And this stat is ridiculous. Through 11 games this year, Jared Verse has 49 pressures, which is amazing for a rookie. Amazing for anybody, but amazing for a rookie. That is more than the Falcons total number of pressures

from the edge position combined. Seven players, seven edge players on the Falcons do not add up to as many pressures that Jared Verse has. The Falcons rank dead last in the league with 10 sacks. That's less than one sack per game. We have not seen a team finish with fewer than 20 sacks in a season since 2021 by the Falcons. Alkins with 18. So this is it's just it's been a problem for so long and instead of fixing it with

they had three pass rushers staring them in the face with Latu and Dallas Turner and Jared Verst. They decided to go in a different direction and I hope they're looking at what's going on in Los Angeles with verse and saying hey we we coulda shoulda whata woulda but if we if they could go back if you give them I'm sure they're still pretty excited about what Michael Penix is going to be down the road but if you give them truth serum what would they say a about how they would have treated that number eight overall pick. This is obviously colored by the fact that Michael Pennix is not like a home run for sure prospect, right? He's a little bit older.

He has warts. He has injury concerns. But I've softened on this a little bit. And there's going to be a conversation on the money down, the business-centric miniseries that we're doing on the feed a little bit later next month about rookie quarterback contracts in general and about the finances that we're allocating to that position. And I think that there's part of me that believes we're kind of overstating the importance of the rookie quarterback contract window. Not that it's not important or helpful, but I think that this idea that it's just you need to everything you can to maximize it. And the gap between that contract and what you're paying guys at the top of the market, it changes everything about your team and all that stuff. I think we're kind of overstating that a little bit.

And you guys can listen to that conversation with Brad Spielberg in a couple weeks. But I think part of that discussion and consideration is, for me, it's all about how good is your quarterback? Is your quarterback good? That ultimately, at the end of the day, is the most important question. And this thing that the Falcons tried to sell us about, we don't think we're picking that high again. We think this is a way to kind of get instability at that position, not only for the next two or three years, but for the next seven, eight, ten years. What is happening? What happened with Jordan Love and Green Bay?

Even if you couldn't maximize the contract window, you were in a better position as a franchise. because you have that guy a quarterback. So even if there's some downsides and some compromises that you've made because you're wasting or burning two years of this guy, I still think that there's an argument to be made that having the transition and succession plan a quarterback is worth what they did.

It's harder to swallow when we're talking about a top 10 pick, right? I mean, Jordan Love was in the mid-20s, Aaron Rogers is in the 20s. When you're talking about a top 10 pick in a very rich draft, it is tough for to swallow, especially when, you know, you have to sell it to a locker room that they know, everyone in that locker room knows they probably could use an upgrade at edge. And you look at the Falcons right now, they're what, six and five, barely holding on in that division. I would think most people think the bucks are probably the favorite to come out of that division.

So it's just, now, I mean, if they drafted Jared Verst at eight instead of Pennix, maybe that wouldn't affect the win-loss record at all. who knows. But I just think it's, it's such a, it's such a risk doing what they did. And when we revisit this in five years, you know what? Michael Pennix might be a pro bowler and we were saying

they did the right thing. That's exactly what they should have done. And maybe that's how we're talking. But right now, it's just, it's a bad look and it's, it's tougher to swallow when you think about how, you know, GM, head coaches,

how long they get to really see things out. And if the Falcons don't make the playoffs this year, that's going to be a tough one to explain the ownership. I think that's totally fair. And I think that for me, it's, again, seeing things in a little bit more of a vacuum, independent of the short-term needs and the short-term pressures on these guys. But there's risk in not taking Jared Verson and what that does to your defense. To me, there is a bigger risk in potentially walking yourself into the quarterback wilderness

in 2026 and 2027. And they hopefully accounted for that because I think we've seen a lot of teams in that position where you just don't have an answer and now you're like, what are we going to do? No doubt. And that's why this was my answer to this question is because I'm genuinely, I don't think this is like a slam dunk they would have taken Jared Verse at 8 if they could redo things. I'm genuinely interested. What was their conviction on Michael Pennix? Now that they've seen how things have played out this year, if they could go back and change it, I'm genuinely interested to see if they would do that just because I'm interested what they're conviction.

is on penics and if they think they may be, if they have any regrets, what is their regret level on doing what they did? Or if they're still totally dug in, we did the right thing. We know what they're going to say publicly. Like obviously they're not going to come out and say anything like that. But in a personal conversation between GM and head coach, would they maybe change a few things with the way that things played out? So here's my read on the situation.

the GM is in year four right Kyle Pitts's first draft I think so you so 21 22 23 24 so this is four four years right the head coach is in year one and I think a lot of the appeal of Michael Pennix is rooted in the type of quarterback that the Rams had over the last couple years and that's sort of armed talent and what a guy like that who can play that way from the pocket access all levels of the field does to your office

So if this was a pick that was, if not driven by, then encouraged by the coaching staff who is in year one, there's a little bit longer of a runway there than there is for a front office that might be feeling a little bit of pressure. So I think this feels to me like something that was driven with the conviction of guys who watched Matthew Stafford up close for the last couple years, rather than a guy in year four that hasn't done a lot of winning in Atlanta. Yeah, and that makes sense. And like I said, five, three years from now, we might look back and say, okay, you know what, they nailed it. Even though they had to take their medicine early on, they end up looking like they made the right decision. And something that time, as time goes on, we will find those answers.

I'm just really interested to see what the temperature is for them personally if they feel like they made the right move or if they have any regrets at all. All right. Last one here. We do our upon third, further review segment on these midweek shows. Just something that you went back and watched here over the last week or so that you wanted to chat about. What is that for you coming out of week 12? Yeah. And this is where we talk about Bo Nix and how impressive he's been, especially compared to how it started and compared to our expectations.

And, you know, the moment he was drafted, it felt early, but he was paired with Sean Payton. So it was like, okay, yeah, this has a really good chance of working out. And it's funny, I'm going back, I'm watching him, and then I'm reading my report. And there's nothing wrong, I would say, about how I identified as traits. But I don't think that myself or a lot of us, we valued some of his strengths. And, you know, the last line of my report was he understands where to go with the football, and his scrambling gives defensive, defenses fits.

And that's kind of exactly what we've seen from him. I don't think we gave him enough credit for how that would work at the NFL. level. So Nix, he's been pressured 135 times, only taking 19 sacks. I think the pass protection has been a little bit better as we've gone on throughout the year. I think it's been excellent.

You watch that team and they're playing in defensive lines over the last few weeks, but I've been really impressed with what they've been able to do out front. Especially some of those games early on. I think they've really shown progression as we've getting deeper into the season. But now that, you know, but part of this is the quarterback buying time and creating

in something that, you know, just just watching him against Vegas on Sunday and routinely escaping, turning a negative into a positive. He ranks fourth best in the NFL in terms of pressure to sack ratio behind only Lamar Jackson, Josh Allen, and Jordan Love. So I don't think that we gave him enough credit pre-draft for that ability. We knew he could do it, but we didn't maybe give him enough flowers for, okay, this is what's going to help make him a successful NFL quarterback. Yeah, I've been very impressed over the last few weeks. And I do think that the pass protection has really set him up well,

especially in this run where he's like dominated the Panthers, dominated the Falcons, probably the two worst pass rushes in the league. But even against teams that have a little bit more juice, his ability to escape, to create, to extend plays. And just the willingness to push the ball down the field a little bit more over the last month or so compared to what it looked like early on. I mean, he's ripping throws over the middle of the field.

Deep digs and, you know, big crossers. And that conviction and that aggression, I just think paired with the stuff you're talking about where he's raising the floor because of his ability to mitigate pressure to make plays outside of the pocket. He is a very capable rookie quarterback in the NFL. And I think when they surround him with hopefully some better weaponry over the next year or so, and you combine it with Sean Payton and the offensive line he's playing with, it's an offense that I'm much more intrigued by than I expected to be coming into the year. That's for sure.

Yeah. And he was always a confident player. That's something you really liked about Bo Nix, especially growing up an Auburn fan. He was Auburn royalty. Things didn't work out there. So he has to leave with his tail between his legs. Then he goes to Oregon.

And he's a Heisman contender. He was able to rebuild himself. And to have the competitive toughness and the confidence to do that says a lot about him and his character in the way that he is able to compete. So, yeah, it's no surprise that I think he has stood up in the face of NFL pressure and has been able to rise above it. and that's been cool to see. Dane Bruegler, always a pleasure, sir.

We'll have you, we'll have you back sooner or rather than later. We're going to get to the end of the college football season. We're going to be rolling into draft season, and we'll be on to talk all things draft as we get toward the end of the year into the new year. So appreciate the time, enjoy the holiday week, and we will talk to you very soon. Thanks, man. Happy Thanksgiving. All right, guys, that's all we got.

Thank you so much, Daniel. Thank you to Dane for their time. We will be back on Friday, slightly truncated version. of the weekly preview show just because we have to record it a day early because of Thanksgiving. But we're going to be breaking down five games on the week 13 slate. That is going to be in your feeds on Friday like it would be any other week. We're taking a week off from the money down. That is not going to be available on Saturday.

We're going to wait until after a holiday weekend to release the next episode of that. So that will be coming your way on December 7th. So if you were looking for those and it's not there on Saturday, that's why. For now, that's all we got. Appreciate you listening. We'll talk to you soon.