The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Aaron Donald joins the show, Darius Butler talks offensive production from a defensive perspective, and a Miami Dolphins Team Visit with Josh Tolentino

Episode Date: October 21, 2020

First up, nine-year NFL veteran, and cohost of The Man To Man With DB & AB podcast, Darius Butler joins the show to talk about why offensive production has been up so much so far this season, the lack of offseason prep time affecting defenses, Jet Motion, Julio Jones, Bill Belichick, and a lot more.Then, Robert talks to two-time NFL Defensive Player of the Year, LA Rams defensive tackle, Aaron Donald about how he adds new wrinkles to his game, building trust with a coaching staff, if he ever thinks about his place in the history of football as potentially one of the best defensive players ever, conditioning and recovery, and more.To close things out, The Athletic’s own Josh Tolentino stops by in this week’s Team Visit to discuss the beginning of Tua Time for the Miami Dolphins as Tua Tagovailoa steps in as the team’s starting QB, how he’ll mesh with the offense, and its slowly improving offensive line, where some of the teams draft capital will be directed as their rebuild continues, and much more.Get a year’s subscription to The Athletic for just $1 a month when you visit http://theathletic.com/footballshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays, and boy, do we have a fun show for you guys today. A little bit later, Aaron Donald, the Aaron Donald, is going to join us to talk some nerdy football stuff, some ways that he prepares, a ton of stuff that we got to with Aaron. We're going to be joined by Josh Tolentino, the Athletics Dolphins writer, to talk about the start of the Tua era in Miami. But before that, I'm very pleased now to be joined by. nine-year NFL cornerback. He hosts the man-to-man pod with Antoine Bethea.

He does everything DB on YouTube. You should absolutely check it out. I've learned so much from him this football season as he's broken stuff down on Twitter and really examined a level of the game that I don't think or know much about. And that's the defensive backfield. And I really wanted to have him on

to talk about what it's been like for the first six weeks of the season. Darius Butler, Darius, how are you doing? How you doing, man? I'm doing good. Thanks for having me. Of course. I, again, I've watched so much of the stuff

that you pointed out this year. And I think that one of the biggest stories of the season so far has been offensive production. Coming into the week, I think it was teams are averaging 2.3-2 points per drive, which would be the highest mark of all time. I think the record is two points per drive. So you just see all of these high-flying offenses, so many points. And I kind of wanted to talk to you about what you were seeing from offenses that's

put them ahead of defenses so far. So if you were trying to just present it on a general level, why NFL offenses for the first third of the year have been ahead of defenses. What has jumped out to you about that? There's something we talked about just pre pre-snap shifts, motions, but guys are giving, you're giving quarterbacks, you're giving coordinators more options, right? More options at the line of scrimmage.

So it's harder for offense, good offenses to be wrong. You watch the chiefs and the bills player, the chiefs and whoever play, like the screen games. my home's good looks like you has two or three options on the screen. It's just like those are incorporated in so many different parts of the game now, whether there's RPO's or guys doing different things with the play calls. But you got more options. And the defense has to evolve in the sense of, you know,

giving some of your play callers and some of your leaders out there on the field, more options to get in or out of, you know, coverages. And until we start to do that, we're going to stay behind the curve. Why do you think football and just information has evolved quicker in the past five years or so? Because it does feel like that. It feels like there are more layups. It feels like there's more stuff being stolen from college or from other NFL teams. The world has become flat when it comes to ideas, I think, in a way that it wasn't 10 years ago.

So would you just say that teams are more willing to evolve, quicker to evolve, quicker to adopt new ideas now than they might have been when your career started? Oh, 1,000 percent. 1,000 percent. It's just, you know, because, you know, football, you got a lot of old guys who are stuck in their ways. Well, that's how it used to be at least when I kept in the league in 2009. And guys just been around for a while and they've been coaching certain things for a while, whether it's a defense or offense. And it's just been that way. And the coaches are very, a lot of A-type personality.

A lot of people who are, you know, it's ego involved. It's things that, hey, I've been doing this for so long. Like, you're not going to come in. I'm not going to change up my whole thing for you. you. So it's been some of that. And now with these players and coaches, you know, if you don't perform in those first two or three years, they call them two years, they're calling for your head. So a lot of these times new coaches get in, you bring in the quarterbacks. A lot of these quarterbacks, obviously coming from college, you want to put a lot of things in your playbook that's going to

make them comfortable. And that's why you see the quarterbacks coming in and playing at such a high level early just because they're adapting. You'll see, it's amazing to see somebody like Andy Reed, who's been around the game forever, adapt the way he has with, you know, Mahomes at quarterback or even, you know, other quarterbacks around the league. Roman, what you saw, what he was doing, Capp years ago in the 49ers, and he just evolved that to different steps with Lamar Jackson.

So it's really about evolution. And guys are just becoming more adaptable. And really, these jobs aren't as long as they used to. So you get a job and you want to start to win now. So you've got to make guys as comfortable as possible. And it's always been a copycat league, but now it's just, it's moving faster. Like I remember when I came in the league, Wildcat was one of those things.

Like the dolphins that kind of took the league by storm with Wildcat, and then everybody in the league had their own Wildcat package. And then it was the RPO. And now it's just a lot of this spread offense and getting the ball into guys in space and making open field tackles are becoming even more important now. Having guys on defense that can wear multiple hats, they can be a good player in the run game, be a good defender. in the past game.

You know, those are becoming more and more valuable. I like one of those things I think has cropped up a lot this year is how much a jet motion has taken over with some of the best offenses in the NFL or pre-snap motion and guys moving at the snap. And it's fun to watch the progress of it because I'm reading a little bit about this this week and you and I have talked about this a little bit before. So when the jet motion stuff started in like 2017 or so, right, when the, you know, Pitt had been doing it and they really stole it from like Bob Stitt and

Colorado School of Mines and all this weird college stuff, which is how this stuff originates. And the chiefs were doing a lot of that jet motion, pitch it to the guy in motion, stuff like that. It felt like that originally was a way to get the ball on the edge quickly. You know, that makes sense. It just you think about, okay, that you're getting people on the edge, you're using your fastest players.

Then the Rams started doing it where they would use the jet motion and then run behind it because it displaces linebackers in gaps and plays at their eye discipline. Now it feels like people are using the jet motion to throw the ball. So you're changing number counts. You're changing who's one, who's two, who's three. You're making defenses think and communicate really quickly. And that's really interesting this year because of the limited offseason that defenses had. Teams had less time to really plan to have these really drawn out, fully fledged ideas of this is how we communicate.

This is how we handle this. So how would you say that offenses have done the best job of stressing that communication? And where would you say that defensive communication has been lacking because of the lack of of time teams had to prepare in the off season. Well, yeah. So any time you motion for an, if I'm an offensive quarterback, if I'm an offense a play call, I'm always incorporating some type of motion or shift just because the more I do that, the more I take it out of the coordinator's hands.

And I put it more, I put more on the plate of the players on the field because as a defensive coordinator, you only got three things, really. You have field position, you have down the distance, and you know the office of personnel know that's in the huddle. So once they come out and get into their formation and then they go from one formation to another and all that is on the players to, okay, whatever we need to change, this call or that call. I need to be here. I have to be here. Okay, I'm responsible to drop off of number two. Okay, now he's number two. Now this guy's jet motion over here. You can't prepare for that as a defensive coordinator, so you're putting more on the plate for the players. And now that's

that's where you get behind. That's where you get miscommunication on the defensive side of the ball. You just have to have clear communication from the top down, from every guy on the field has to know what they're doing in a variety of different. Hey, if he's here, if you know you're playing the team like the Rams who does a bunch of jet motion. We got to have simpler calls that don't have as much adjusting as far as, you know, passing strength goes. So it's a combination of those things. And your second question, let me get your second question again. What elements of that communication do you think probably aren't as fully developed because, his teams didn't have as much time in the preseason to go through all of this stuff.

Yeah, I mean, a lot of these things, even if you have a preseason, you only have so much time in that building. So the onus is really still on the players. But having a short and offseason is only going to make it tougher for those guys communicate because there's a lot of communication that goes on from getting the original play call in the huddle and then the actual snap of the football. Like there should be a ton of communication. taking place on defense, regardless of what the call is. We can call cover three every down. Every down, every snap before that ball is snap, we need to be communicated. Hey, alert this, alert that. Hey, kiddles here. Hey, that guy's there. Hey, it's second and long. Alert the screen.

So communication has to be taking place regardless. And that's really what it comes down to just everybody being on the same exact page, speaking the same exact language. And I mean, everybody was kind of dealt the same cards as far as the offseason go. So you just got to figure out of ways. It's not going to be any really excuses or explanations when it comes to that. So we got to figure it out. The defense, if I, as a coordinator, I got to make my call simpler. I got to make it easier for everybody, every got to be on the same page, at least for the first, let's say, four weeks, and then we can expand and evolve from that. That's what I got to do. But everybody's got to be on the same page. And even beyond that, we got to be communicating

what could possibly be coming from the offense. And obviously, this is going to be dependent on personnel. But if you were starting from scratch and you were a defense, coordinator in the NFL. What would you think would be the basis of your coverage plan? Like, where would you start as the foundation of your defense if you were just looking at the landscape of what NFL offenses look like right now? Man, the foundation, I need a pass rush. Before I even get to the court, the coverages and what I'm doing in the back end, because none of that matters, none of those play calls matter. If I don't have guys that can get to the quarterback, without me dialing up blitzes and exposing more things on the back end, right?

That gives you so much more freedom to do things on the back end when it comes to coverage-wise. Now, when I'm playing a team like the Chiefs or I'm playing a team like, you know, a lot of these teams who have multiple guys like a Falcons, for instance, even though they're not winning right now. And going into that game, you've got to take care of Julio. And really is not a guy that I'm comfortable with just leaving in one-on-one coverage all game either. So when I have four guys that can get after the passer, I can do, I can be, be much more flexible in the back end as far as where I'm going with coverages.

Hey, maybe I even need a spy. We're playing Lamar Jackson. We're playing this guy or that guy this week. Maybe I need a spy. So I need that pass rush. First and foremost, like the Bears, give me a four-man pass-rress. I can get after you like the Bears, a healthy Chargers front four, healthy four United's front four.

The Coats front four has been getting at the quarterback. So give me that. And I can build anything else. But as far as coverages, it doesn't matter what you call, honestly. It's just about being sound. And I'll say that over and over again. I kind of sound like a broken record, but the calls don't matter as much as the guys understanding the calls and then understanding the weaknesses of those calls.

So if we're going to run out there and play cover two and cover three all day, we need to know the weak spots in this coverage. And we need to know the strong points in this coverage as well. So if you were kind of going back to the offensive for a little bit, you mentioned Andy Reed. If you were playing right now, who is the offensive coordinator you would want to play against the least? Who's the guy that you would just be sitting there all? week as you studied being like, son of a bitch.

Like, what is he even doing here? Like, I really don't want to deal with this. I mean, it's, yeah, it's Eric Binabee and Andy Reid is those two guys, of course. And, I mean, they're weapons. You got so many weapons going into a game. So, and this is for anybody's out there listening. So going into a game, no matter what team you're on, at first Wednesday meeting, getting ready for the game.

The head coaches, that's the only time really as a complete team we sit down and meet and you talk about the opponent. So going into a game, let's say you're playing the Chiefs, you typically put maybe two or three guys on each phase of the game who are what we call game records, right? So offensively we're going, hey, this guy, that guy, those are game records. These two guys on defense, you know, Miles Garrett and this guy, those are game records, right?

On the Chiefs, there's so many guys who can wreck the game for you got, the running bat, you got Patrick Mahomes, you got Kelsey, you got Hill. So there's so many guys that you have to be aware of where they're on the field. It's tough. So obviously, you know, with those weapons, BNNB, what they're doing in Kansas City, and also somebody like a healthy 49ers with Kyle Shanahan. What he does and mixing up, like you said, the pre-stap motions, the shifts. And he has, once again, the personnel, you know,

you've got a fullback that can be just as involved and just as impactful in the run game as he can't be in the past game. Same thing with George Kittle. The reason I would say he's the best titan in the last. league is because he's a matchup problem. If you match somebody out there that's going to be effective against kidd on the run game, you damn sure can't cover him. If you put somebody out there that can has a chance of covering him, he's going to get blocked up in the run game. So guys like that make it really, really difficult. And then the mind of like a guy like Kyle Shannonhan

what he does scheme wise, I saw when he got the ball back last night and basically got into a four minute drill where you're trying to get a couple first downs and run the clock out, he would probably be the last team in the league, the last coach, offense coordinating the league that I want to be going up against in a four-minute situation just because of how he dials it up. That's so true. There are guys that, like with the chiefs, you're afraid of the big play, right?

You're just constantly being afraid of them burning you down. With Shanahan, I don't think I'd have greater faith in any one coach to get me 10 yards. Get me a first down. I think he's the first person that I would mention. Yeah, that's a really interesting way to think about it because that's a really big distinction. So what you were talking about actually with the jet motion. So like going into the going into playing the 49ers, Debo Samuel will be a guy who would be like, all right, you know, he's one of the guys that can get on the edge quick, whether it's a little shovel pass,

whether it's a reverse. Same thing with Odell, you seem to do a lot this year. Claypool and Pittsburgh, you seem to do a lot. So going into the game, you know, okay, Hardman Hill, you know these are the guys who do it, right? But in that four minute situation last night, third, I think it was like third and seven, you do a little shovel pass. to Debo, you get him on the edge. And it's like, that's, that, that's the guy you want. It was just a brilliant play call. So, yeah, Shannonhan would definitely the top of the list. So if you're playing the Chiefs and you were going through that game record conversation, if we've removed Mohomahs from the equation, who do you think is more important to the way that

they play? Do you think it's Hill or Kelsey? Oh, hmm, that's tough. I would say, I'll probably say Kelsey, just because of you, you're always in. the bad spot as far as, like I said, matching them up personnel-wise. Like, who do we match, who do we match up with him? He's not a, now he's not as good as anywhere near as good as kiddo is in the run game. So he gives you, you know, some numbers there. But in the past game, we're going to put a lineback on. You're going to be safety. Really got to put a corner on and have a chance. And the corners are too small. So he's the biggest matchup problem. Obviously, Hill can run by anybody. But if you play them off and force him to, you know,

stay in front of you or you keep a safety over the top kind of how the Patriots do. You know, he may get you a big play here and there, but Kelsey is going to consistently move those chains, going to consistently keep drives going. And he's going to be a matchup problem every night, every afternoon, no matter who you're playing against. So when you were playing, who would you say is the receiver that you had to pay the most attention to, the one who brought the most to the table? A guy like Antonio Brown, being on the same page that he was on with Big Ben, as far as not only the first route, like, Oh, yeah, he's going to run a good comeback route and the ball to be there.

He'll run a good deep ball to pose here and there. But what they kill you with is kind of like when it turns in the backyard ball almost. Like when that first player is kind of dead or, you know, Big Ben kind of, you know, he's not mobile. He's not going to escape the pocket, but he's going to throw a couple guys off. And now, you know, Antonio Brown was running a dig and he was right here. And now he's 20 yards that way. And the ball's in there and some touchdown. So Antonio Brown's motor, his routes, his hands, like tough catches.

I would say Antonio Brown definitely was probably one of those guys who you knew we were going to have our hands for as a secondary dealing with. Would you also say, because I think these are two different questions, would you also say that was the guy that required the most attention during the week? The guy whose name was kind of in the brightest lights on that board when you'd be listing guys as you were preparing for them. Yeah, I mean, it's a few of those guys around the league who, what we call it in football terms is just changing the math. Like these guys who changed the math, like Aaron Donald. He changed the math up front. Like you got to put two guys on him. Julio Jones changed the math.

DeAndre Hopkins changed the math. He was in our division, spent a lot of time playing against him. He was one of those guys. You always had to know where he was. But I would say he wasn't as effective or dominant when he moved to the slot as he was at that ex-receiver. Now, he's evolved at this point, but back when I was playing him, a guy like Antonio Brown and why he's almost always my answer is because he was effective at any part of the field lining up. whether there's an X, Z, the slot, returning the ball. And then he was also a guy who affected you on all three levels.

So you can throw him the ball in line of scrimmage for a screen. He can get 50. You can throw him a slant. He can take it to the house. You can throw him a pose. He had some of the best adjustments to deep balls in the game. So you have those receivers that can affect your all three levels. Typically, those are the toughest guys to stop.

And you got to pay attention to him. Of course. This is a weird question. This is going to sound silly just on its face. Do you think Julio Jones is underrated? Because I talk to players or coaches especially. Remember, I've talked to Wade Phillips about this, and I would ask him, you know, what receivers do you?

And Julio is always the first guy that people mention. Because he just has this combination of straight line speed and he can throttle down in ways guys that big can't. He just has this combination of traits. And I don't know if people would just instantly say that he's the most talented, impactful receiver in a post-Calvin Johnson world. But I think he is pretty definitively.

That's where it gets here. That's where it gets here is the impact, impactful. Because impacting is at that position, scoring touchdowns. Yeah. So he hasn't been at the top of that list. So for a while it was him and AB at the top. And if someone asked me, I would always give AB the edge because once again, AB was going to get in the paint

10 plus times a year. On top of going for 13, 14, 15. Yeah, exactly. You know, it's on top of going for the yardage. Now, Julio is going to kill you. He's going to have, you know, 13, 14, 15, 100 yards every year, but he may have four touchdowns six. He may have eight.

Andre Johnson was another one of those guys who killed you numbers wise. But for some reason, unbeknownst the man, they don't score as many touchdowns as these other guys. So that would probably be the only reason why he's not unequivocally. the best, an argument to be the best receiver ever. If he was a guy who averaged nine touchdowns a year, I don't think it would be a debate. But when you're going out there as a player,

he's one of those guys that you see and you're like, okay, like I've watched this guy on film, but it's like a damn avatar out here, man. So he, like you said, he has a straight line speed. He has the ability to get in and out of routes like a little guy. He makes tough catches. The only reason I think that people, And there's no knock you can put on Julio Jones.

But the only reason I would say he's not, you know, bar none, it's the best we've seen since, whoever is the touchdown production. What is your guess on that? Because I've thought about that so often because Andre Johnson was one of those guys. I loved Andre Johnson because I love that Kubiak offense. And I love the spot he fits in that offense. Why do you think those guys aren't as productive in the red zone? Because for Julio, I think people have tried to explain it away saying, well, he just gets doubled all the time.

that's why Calvin Ridley is always open. I don't know enough about the structure of defenses to just kind of attributed to that. So what would your guess be about why those two guys didn't score as often as somebody like an Antonio Brown would? I tell you, I have no idea. I have no idea. Antonio Brown, I mean, because when you look at

scoring touchdowns for a receiver, you know, the first thing obviously you're going to bring up is red zone. But, I mean, receivers can score from all that. You can score 30 yards out, 40 yards, 50 yards, you know, 25 yards out. And damn right, he's getting doubled in the red zone, but so is AB. So is Keenan Allen. So is DeAndre Hopkins.

So is most of these guys are getting double majority of time if someone's getting doubled in the red zone. So you can't, you can't attribute it to that. I haven't watched them just specifically the Falcons enough to say, oh, it's the play calling, but they've had different play callers. It's been 10 years. Yeah, it can't just be the play callers. Yeah, like, you know, how's the targeting?

Is he getting the same target? So I don't know. It's really, it's really a crate. It's one of those things that I don't know if anybody really have the answers to. But for some reason, the production hasn't been there when it comes to scoring touchdowns. And I think that's the only thing that you can, if you had to pick and prize some of his career, that's the only thing you can look at. All right.

I want to talk about Bill Belichick a little bit because you played for him for a couple years. I'm sure that 100,000 people have asked you about Bill Belichick. Just on a simple level, what is your favorite Bill Belichick? story. Ah, man, so many. Favorite one? I mean, so he doesn't get enough credit enough for his how funny he is. He has a really dry sense of humor.

So after my first game, Monday night football, rookie, it came down to the last play. We were playing the Buffalo Bills. This was at the time they had Lee Evans, Therill Owens, Fred Jackson, Roscoe Piers. They had some guys on all

Underrated fun team. Yeah, it was fun team. I think Marshawn Lynch may have still been on a team where you just got traded. But come down at last play of the game. I'm getting, I probably got maybe 25, 30 snaps that game. Very last play the game, too far away to throw the hell, Mary. So it becomes one of those plays. You know, you throw a pitch back, throw a pitch of back.

So I'm running around like a chick on my head cut off. I'm hitting T.O. I bounced off like a BB on the taint. I get shook by Roscoe Perez. I miss a tackle or two more. So next day, Bill Belichick, one famous thing, low lights. Like, it's always low lights.

You can beat the team 30 to zero or you can lose 30 to zero. You're going to have low lights on Monday morning. So Monday morning he comes in, he's like, man, he waits all the way to the end of the meeting. It's the last play. And he says, man, I've been coaching the NFL for, you know, 30 plus years at this point. And Butler, I have never seen a player miss four tackles on one play.

So I'm like, coach, I'm like, I'm like, coach. I mean, I'm hustling, you know, I'm running around. I'm made. So, but, um, but, um, That was probably my favorite Belichick story, just him calling me out like that after missing literally three or four tackles on one play. You got to be working hard to miss four tackles on one play, though. That's the thing. Hey, man, you got to be hustling your ass off, man.

And that's what I was doing. And, you know, somebody got him down. That's a team game, man. It's 11 of us out here. How do I get there four times? I think that the most interesting thing about Belichick, and I want to talk about some of the schematic stuff in a second. but I've always been fascinated by how he breeds goodwill with players, like how he creates it.

Because when you are hard on guys and when that is a portion of how you coach and how you teach, is by these are the low lights, you need to get better, being really demanding. It's interesting that he can make guys want to play for him. So how would you try to communicate that? Why do guys want to play for him despite how much of a hard ass he can be at times? Honestly, and it's something that I didn't see my first year or two there, you see that it works. You know, it's a method to the madness. And when you run out of that tunnel, I can remember vividly, actually, it was two players who we had been there a couple of years.

And we had just signed another guy who we were all familiar with. And he came in and we were talking, kind of telling him about the Patriot way, like, hey, man, this how it goes. You know, when it just go down, look at this or that and this. and we're telling me he's like damn man like this man this is this some tough stuff man we're like like how do y'all like how do y'all deal with this you're like you know Monday through Saturday is you know you feel like that but when you run out of a tunnel on Sunday you feel like every week you're going to win that game and you feel like if we don't win like we did something we did something wrong like because we're going to be the more prepared team we're going to execute better we're going to be the

better condition team we're going to condition after damn many every practice which no other team does that I've been on. And it's just different things that's kind of driven in, it's like a lot of the truth that gives you that edge on Sunday, more times a night, and it definitely doesn't hurt to have Tom Brady. But when you have a winning formula for so long, it's hard to,

it's hard for guys not to buy in. You know, you see guys doing it, and then you see a Tom Brady or a Cam Newton or Devin McCordy or Vince Wilfork or whoever these guys, all these great names and resumes, you see them 100% bought in. So you really have no option. You have no choice.

So it's not about trying to convince guys to play for you. It's really about you get on board or you won't be here long. It's always been really interesting to me the way they've built those teams. They've always had Patriots lifers in the locker room. And Brady, it helps that Brady has been there for 20 years. But even on defense, if you look at every iteration, there's always been that core of two to three guys. So it was, you know, Bruske and Richard Seymour, those guys at the beach. beginning. Mike Vrable, that was the first iteration. And then it was, like you said, the Vince Wilfork,

Gerard Mayo, then now you have Devin McCordy. Having that nucleus and having it kind of infect the rest of the locker room, I would say is an underrated part of why they've been able to keep guys bought in as consistently as they have over the past two decades. Yeah, absolutely. So players, players are really the drivers of the culture, especially on the professional level. Now, on the college level, you know, whatever dabble-sweeney says goes, you know, whoever you are, we got this many five-star recruits.

We got this. It's easier to steer that ship as a college coach as far as the power goes. On the professional level, it's a different dynamic. Because you got one guy, you got guys getting paid 10, 15, 20, $25 million a year. You got a coach that's maybe getting paid $5 or six, So the power shift is different.

So Tim Duncan has to buy in to Popovich. Tom Brady has to buy in to Bill Belichick. And then that permeates throughout the team. And like you said, having guys like Devin McCordy around forever, now High Tile would be one of those guys. Patrick Chung, one of those guys. Like those are the guy, Julian Edelman on the offensive side of the ball. Just guys with Matt Slater when it comes to special teams.

So having those guys, you spoke about the people that were there before, William McGinnis, Tide Law. Vince Will for Richard Seymour. Like the list goes on. So when you come in, regardless of where you come from, where you draft it, you're just like, okay, this is how things are done around here. And we win, yeah, let me be a part of that. And if you're not, I mean, he doesn't really take, take loan to weed out, you know,

the cancers. Cancers, you don't build. Because you know in teams, with teams, when they come down and the locker room is lost and all these fractures within the team, usually X comes with, you know, a little group over here saying, hey, man, this, you know, this ain't going right. Oh, yeah, you know, it's the offense for all, you know, the special teams, you know, they've been sucking, they're missing field goals. When you got everybody on the same page, like looking in the mirror, say, hey, I got to do my job better. That's when you really get real accountability.

You get everybody giving their all and give you your best chance to win every Sunday. What is different about the way that he teaches and coaches defense? Because we hear about it all the time, but what act specifically is different about his approach? The details. Just the devil. was in the details. And like I said earlier in the, in the podcast, you only have so many hours in the building. So he, I don't want to say scares you, but he almost scares you into being more prepared than you normally would. So, and that's not always just football. It's not always just your job. So I was reading the article that I was in and it just took a bunch of quotes from a

bunch of different players from over the years. And a lot of guys are saying the same things. But One of the things that he did year in, year out, was coming in, I needed to know my teammates' names. I needed to know what college they went to. I needed to know what sign was on the hallway right outside of the meeting room. I needed to know the four things outside the door and I walk in the building. I needed to know the four things on the other side. That's before it gets into knowing my opponent and signing out when I get called out in the meeting at whatever point. So you're always on your toes.

So when you leave that facility, you're preparing. on your own more so than you would be on any other team. So when I went to other teams throughout my career and things went different, I'm like, this is like, whoa, like nobody's getting put on the spot. Nobody's getting called out. Like if you know it, you know it, if you don't, you don't. And then you get the game. And then that one situation presents itself and we're kind of looking around each other.

Like, um, do we do, and ball snap this over with game over. We lost. So on the New England side, you're going to be so prepared for every situation that when that preparation presents, I mean, when that situation presents itself, we don't have any talking or thinking to do. We already been here before. We've been, we, we've walked through this. This is actually a little easier than what it was in practice because in practice,

I had to go against Tom Brady, Randy, Mawks, and West Walker. And now I'm out here with, you know, whoever it is, and that. So now I'm prepared. So you move that much quicker in a critical situation in the game, whether there's money downs, third downs, red area, some type of two-minute situation. The more prepared team usually wins those situations. And I know you've told me this before, you would know how wide the numbers were

and how many yards were between certain areas of the field because of how specific the defensive rules were in New England. That is different, right? Like not everyone teaches it that way. Very different. I don't think I haven't been. I won't say nobody else does it because I'm sure his people have went other places.

and I'm sure he's probably learned that from someone else. But like I keep saying, you only got so many hours and you can only go through so much. And that's kind of like base stuff. Like, hey, everybody's got to know how wide the numbers are. You got to know the difference between the top of the numbers and the bottom. Because you'll be surprised. I these guys go through college and they don't learn any of this stuff. It's just like, hey, you go guard your guy.

You play cover two, you play this. You don't understand why you're doing it. Be better than the guys across from you. Exactly. And that's you can get through. you get past high school college or all that. So on the pro level, it's different. It's between the ears.

So knowing those things, and you think it's tedious, you think it's too much at the time, why do I need to know how white the hash marks are, why do I need to know how much distance, why do I need to know exactly what my midpoint is? But once again, once the situation comes up in the game, you know these things, you know that, you know this. So knowing those things, that's baseline.

Identifying formations is another thing that he was really, really big on, like knowing the difference between, Deuce and Twins, knowing the difference between trips and Trey, knowing the difference between far and near, why it's called far and near. So knowing different formations so that I know, me and Patrick Chung are speaking the same language.

So when we go to the sideline, and we're looking at the tablet, and we say, all right, yeah, coach. So they came out, and before when I was playing, we had pictures. Like, we had still pictures, so it wasn't even the live movement tag. It was pictures.

So it was on the players and coaches to really diagnose what happened, Hey, and everybody's coming to the sideline. Hey, coach, I got double team. Yeah, I got double team too. Yeah, I got double team too, coach. So it's like, all right, somebody out here lying. But the more you out there speaking the same, the more you out there speaking the same language,

like, hey, coach, it was twins, pro, it was this, it was that, gun far, blah, blah, we need to shift to this. We need to go and do that. The quicker you can move, you know, in battle or, you know, in football than I. I just think overall, his approach to the game, and this comes from his military background with his dad, and everything. His approach to the game was more military, militant than it was football. And the mind games that he played with us coming into a bit. Like, that's all military stuff. You look around his bookshelf and his office, you see the art of war by Sun Tzu. You see some book written by

some great general or you see all these things. And then he incorporates all that into his football team. And I think it makes bringing it all back around, that ability to be on the same page communication-wise, to be able to have it be streamlined, is a way to come back. these offenses that are making it harder for defenses to communicate and stressing those areas of communication. So once again, a football conversation starts with a problem and Bill Belichick is the answer, as so many of them have been. So, man, I really appreciate the time. I can't tell you how much fun this is. So thank you so much for doing this. And we'll talk to you down the road. Again, please check out Darius's Twitter. He's at Darius J. Butler. Please check out the man-a-man

potty does with Antoine Mathia. Please check out everything DB on YouTube. It is is really useful stuff. You will learn a ton. Darius, thanks a lot for the time, man. Appreciate it. I appreciate you for having me. I have fun. And I am thrilled now to be joined by

all world, all pro, multiple time defensive player of the year, Los Angeles Rams defensive tackle Aaron Donald. Aaron, how you doing, man? I'm doing real good. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. I'm really excited to talk to you

about a bunch of different stuff. We're going to get into why you're here in a little bit, some of the stuff the Rams have done this year. Right off the bat, though, I mean, there are so many things watching you, the intricacies of your game that I find really interesting. And I want to talk to you about a move you go to fairly often. And the third sack you had against Washington, you did that little cross-chop Euro step move that you really like to do.

And that has become so popular around the NFL. Khalil Mack does it a lot. And for people that don't know, it's kind of an inside-out move where you do a little swim over the guy's hands. I'm really curious why you think that move in particular has caught on so much with NFL pass rushers in recent years. Well, cross, Chop, Chop Club. Well, that's a move that's been around forever. So I ain't the first guy to start using it.

You know, actually started learning about it more, going into my rookie year. And they're kind of like watched Robert Quinn the year he had like 19 and then half sacks. I watched this film a lot to just trying to see how he did, and then I practiced it a lot, and then I finally got it down. But, you know, that's a pass rush move that's been around forever. You know, I just kind of put it into my own game a couple years ago and kind of ran with it.

Why do you think guys are going to it so often now? Do you think that there are benefits to it that fit with the way a lot of defenses play in, like, today's NFL? Well, it's all about the office alignment. The guy you're going to get the way he's set, the way his hands is. You watch film prior to a game And you see that you can get certain things on him The way he's setting and the way his hands is

So, you know, and then you take advantage of it from there. It's just a quick move to get on and off To get to the quarterback as fresh as you can. So it's definitely a nice change-up move. So when you're coming up with different moves And different approaches, How does that process work? And how do you come up with new ideas?

Is it something where you're watching a lot of guys? Do you take time to kind of sit down in the offseason and evaluate? your game. How do new ideas come about with you? Just studying yourself. You got to watch certain moves and certain way guys is blocking you and trying to figure out ways to defeat that block to get past the guy to get to the quarterback. That's the main thing. As a pass rush, you got to get sacked. You got to find ways that pick pressure on the quarterback and affect the quarterback. So that's all about studying yourself,

studying your opponent, understanding different ways. They like to block different things you can do to defeat them, different moves you can do. And then you go from there. So when you're kind of sitting down and going through that, does that start in the off season? Like when you, let's say it's March 1st, and you're really just getting into your offseason. Do you go back and watch some of the stuff you did during the season?

Do you kind of do like a diagnostic about what the previous year was and how you need to get better and what you need to add? Like this year, coming into this season, and I had my defense-aligned coach, Coach Hennie, just give me all my third down rushes and send them to me because I wanted to see, you know, how guys was blocking me a lot because I know I was getting slab protection and things like that.

So just trying to study that to help myself to, what can I do more to, you know, get off this or certain things I can do to, you know, defeat certain slab protections and things like that when I'm getting it to still trying to affect the quarterback and you just pretty much study yourself. And again, study the offense alignment sets, how they blocked you prior.

years that you felt like that slows you down, different blocking schemes that slows you down, that you can do different things to find ways to get free and be productive. So it's a whole process you go through it, but it definitely is a good process going through the offseason and start with you just studying yourself first and then go from there. Do you talk to other guys? Like, how do ideas? Because I know that offensive line, there's that masterminds clinic that guys do and they share ideas in different kinds of techniques.

do you guys have certain guys you talk to and share stuff with? I wouldn't say that. I would say more you just work different things yourself. And then, you know, obviously you've got coaches and things that you, that break down for them and watch you as well that critique you and give you ideas and certain things you can do better or things you need to work on and then you go from there. How would you say, you know, obviously beside the slide protection stuff, How would you say the approach that offensive linemen have taken toward you has changed over the years?

What kind of stuff are they maybe trying now that they hadn't in the past as guys try to figure you out a little bit? Well, that's a lot. Well, you got, you know, you got the offensive lineman choking down, meaning, you know, the offensive tackle is helping before he go out and block the end, meaning he pretty much punched you with an over over the close up the B gap, and then you got a center sliding over right now to help you. So you really got no rush. You got no B rush, and you got no. A gap rush. So it's pretty much a triple team. To me, it's a triple team to y'all. Y'all won't see

that. But if you see offensive tackle, leaving his hand out pretty much helping before he block out to the end, and then you got the guard running over now with the overset, he closing up the B gap. And then you think an inside move, but you got to think the center's running over to me now. So it's like, for me, it's a dead player trying to work a game off it. But, you know, it's blocking skin like that to the point where just giving opportunities for other guys. to make the place. It also feels like when I think in times where that's happened this year, you've kind of slow-plated a little bit

and allowed stuff to clear out so you can kind of loop around the traffic. Is that one way that you've tried to deal with teams doing that to you? Yeah, you do certain different things. I don't want to say too much to give her tricks and wearing out. I know. I'm trying to walk the line here. You know, you got to, when you get certain things, you got to work games and work different things to free you up. And sometimes it come with me just, you know, telling a guy on the backside to

winning I play off from, like you said, you know, I might slow play and then trying to wrap free and then do something like that. But, you know, it's definitely made my job a lot harder, but it is what is. It comes with the territory, I guess. How do you, when you're trying to find ways to free yourself up and you're talking to your coaching staff, whether it's Staley or your position coach or whatever, do you guys kind of have conversations about finding unique ways to use you? Like, on a week-to-week basis. What's the conversation like between you and the staff about how you're going to get deployed that week? I sit down and I talk to him. Definitely with Coach Hennie and I watch him. I watch him. I give him my ideas, even my ideas, certain things we can do to try to

try to get the one-on-one matches or, you know, doing different things, giving different looks to trying to get the one-on-one matches. So it's definitely a long process. Then come game, Dave, if we think it's going to be one way and it's still sliding up certain protection or we give a certain look and I'm getting a one-on-one. I go to the same. sideline, then we conversating and I tell them what I'm seeing, what I'm getting, and then, you know, we go from there. One of the things I've noticed that that's actually pretty cool is you're lining up really wide on some place, but still attacking the B gap.

So you're almost over the tackle, but you're ending up inside. You almost have a runway that you get to run down. What's the thought behind that? Like, what's the motivation behind using you in that way if you're still going to go inside but lining up that far outside? I don't want to take too much, but it's a front that we go in and, you know, That's a way we're able to do certain things to try to isolate a guy and get a one-on-one.

So sometimes it works. Sometimes it don't. And obviously, you know, that you work with Wade for a long time and then having Coach Daly come in this year, what's that process like in a season where you're not around each other all the time, but you're having to learn a new coach,

what his preferences are, the way he communicates. What was that like this spring? It was just a part of the business. You know, you've got to adapt and you've got to just, you know, go with the punches as they go. And then at the same time, you're not there, you still got to find a way to learn the defense, understand it.

That's what just more with communication things and did a lot of different things on these Zoom calls. And then once you get in person, you know, you have to get on the grass and get the walk through and then go full speed with certain things. And, you know, with different formations and different looks that we got to do, you know, you got certain techniques you've got to work on, get comfortable with. You want to play how they want you to play. But the same time, you want to play it to the point where, you know, it's a shrimp to you

to the point where you can still put your own type of swag to it to be productive with it. And that's the thing is that Wade consistently throughout the years, whether it was you or JJ or a lot of the guys that he got to coach, he gave guys freedom. He gave you a lot of freedom to do the stuff that you felt like, all right, I can win this way. This is what I want to do. Is that something where you just have to build that trust up over time when you're working with coaches that necessarily haven't been with you day to day? Yeah, 100%.

I feel like all coaches want the guys. that they coach you to be productive and make plays. So they're not going to try to, you know, pit chains on you and make you one dimensional to the point where you can't do what you do. And again, you know, if you're doing something outside the box that, you know, is taking a chance. You got to make the play to show these coaches

that you're able to do that to the point where they trust you to give you that freedom to just go. If you see something, you feel something to go play fair. So, you know, you got to earn that respect. You got to earn that trust from the coaches. and that's all about what you do on the field and putting it on fam to the point where, you know, they trust what you see

and the way you plan certain things at times that they feel like that you doing them and taking them chances can still, you know, be effective because you're making a place in a big way. In terms of just, you know, your career overall, and I know a lot of guys don't think about it this way, but I still wanted to ask you about it. If you win, let's hypothetically,

if you win the defensive player of the year again this year, that would be the third time you've done it. And there's only two other guys, in the history of the league that have done that. Do you think about that stuff? Do you think about where you fit among just the history of football and other great defensive players that have come before you? I would say no, but yeah, at the same time,

I feel like, you know, you want to have success. You want to be labeled at one of the best that play the game at your position for sure. And then you go about, you know, certain guys, like you think about JJ White. You know, I got it won defensive player a year three times. You know, he had two years where he had 20 and a half sacks. So for me, if you want to talk about trying to, you know, make goals and chase stuff,

you know, that's a guy that goals that I'm trying to chase and surpass just because the production he did was, you know, was, it's hard to do. You know, it's hard to get 20 sacks two years. You know, it's hard to win three defensive players of the year. But, you know, if anything, I kind of motivate you to keep working, keep trying to find ways to get yourself better because it's like if he can do it, why can't I do it? You know, so I would say, yeah, and no to that question. So you got guys like that, you know, to have great success

and that motivates you to keep working because if he did it, why can't I do it type of thing? It's funny because with you, the numbers are there always be bigger numbers because for interior defensive linemen, those 20 sacks seasons are almost impossible to do just by virtue of the way that you're being used. But I'm sure in your mind, that's not how you think about it. It's like, why couldn't I get 20 sacks in a year? So even with the success that you've had, I'm sure that every single offseason, it's like, well, there's one more bar that I can probably clear. So that's probably helpful in a way.

Yeah, exactly. It just don't allow me to let myself be satisfied. And that's one thing. I'm happy that, you know, you accomplish a lot and you and a lot of things coming away from just the body work you pin in. But for me, it's always, I feel like I can do more. You know, I feel like I ain't hit my peak. Yeah, I feel like I ain't played my best football yet. I feel like I can do that much more.

So, you know, it's like a gift and a curse, you know, because, you know, you work and nonstop. But, you know, you kind of sometimes you need to learn to let your body relax a little bit. But, you know, they come with it. That's kind of, it's just interesting being, you know, I'm not trying to compare you to LeBron James. But when you're the best player, when you're the best at what you do, I'm sure that it's not the complacency that easily sets in.

It's just that, well, how can I? I get better and how can I do this? So I'm sure it just requires you to kind of take a critical look at your game each off season. Like, all right, I wasn't the best possible version of myself in this exact scenario, talking about like those third down rushes. So I'm sure even that kind of conversation with yourself is something where you have to check yourself a little bit every single year.

Yeah, exactly. That's the best thing about the off season. You know, you find a ways to get yourself better. You study yourself. You see, I know what my weakness is and my strengths is. I know what I need to get better. You know, you guys might not see it. You guys might not know, but I know what I need to do for myself to be that much better.

So me and not allowing myself to be satisfied, me not allowing myself to be comfortable is the reason why I'm able to I feel like get myself better. That's why I continue to work as hard as I do. You know, anybody that know me, no, you know, I live off, hard work pay off. I truly believe in that. So I put the body of working and I believe the outcome is always going to be good things. actually, you know, you work for it, you know, because this far in my life, you know, I, I worked so hard to get where I'm at the day, you know, I ain't going to stop now that I'm at a certain point. I'm just going to continue to work and trying to get myself that

much better. When you look at some of those guys that have come before you, whether it's Reggie White or Lawrence Taylor or certain guys, have you taken parts of their games? Have you watched players from other eras and seen what kind of stuff maybe you can take and graft onto the player you want to be? Um, my rookie year, um, I definitely had a cut up mate with like John Randall and Warren Sapp. Just see how they play. Cause they similar body type size wise and just, but I feel like you can't really,

with everybody's different football players, I can't try to, you know, you could try to, um, see a certain mood they do it, trying to work it to put them to your game. But as far as, you know, I can't do with, you know, John Randall did or Warren Sapp. They probably can't do some things that I can do. So, now, anybody's different. Everybody play different. Only thing you can do is trying to, you know, you see a start and rush somebody to do. You can be like, okay, I like that.

I feel like that's something that I can do, that I can be productive at by working it and learning it. But, you know, every football player is different, you know. It's interesting because, like, with receivers, I've talked to a lot of receivers about how they add releases to their games. And that almost seems easier because you're the one dictating the action in a way. But because so much of what you do is based on the pressure a guy's blocking. with how a guy is setting everything else it's probably harder to just take certain individual moves and be like i'm going to use that because a lot of what you have to do is based on how people are playing you yeah exactly and then you i might study something a week of film and they might be

set in one way and then you come out and they sit in a whole different way to the point where you got to adjust to what they're doing and and things like that so um you know sometimes you expect one thing and you get a whole other thing, you might think they're going to block it one way, and then they block it in a whole other way because they're going to slide the protection to you every single time. So, Agor can overset heavy because you know, he got that center help coming. So it's a lot that go into it, you know, that the world don't really understand and know about. But that's my job is to find ways to defeat that and still find ways to be productive.

So, Aaron, you're here on behalf of Dr. Teal's Epson Salt Soaks, which help ease muscle aches and pains. You know, it's a part of your recovery process. Just walk me through after a game, how that product just fits into the way that you recover and what your post-game recovery routine typically looks like. Well, honestly, it's something that I use pretty much every single day. You know, if we play a Sunday game, we got Mondays, we work out. I got a massage chiropractor.

Then later that night, I'm soaking in the Epson soap bath. I might be in there, warm bath, 15, 20 minutes, you know, kick back on social media or just playing some music, just let my body relax. Wake up the next morning, see how I feel from there. You know, it kind of take the aches of pains away from me big time. So it's something that I truly live about. And anytime I feel like any aches and pains, you know, at night time, I'm always going to soak in an episode so bad

before I get in the shower always, you know. It's just something that, you know, going into this all season, I mean, going into this season was something I wanted to focus on and just keep myself more healthy, more fresh through the season. you know, with all the aches and pains, not letting it linger on. So, you know, being able to be a partner with Dr. Tills and something that I actually believe in and I use, that I feel like help my body, you know, recover.

So, you know, you talk about something that you live by Dr. Tills is something that, you know, that I'm using weekly every single day, trying to find ways that, you know, keep my body as fresh as I can. So I'll be ready to play ball come Sunday. Awesome. Aaron, thank you so much for the time, man. I can't tell you how fun this was. Good luck for the rest of the season,

and we'll talk to you down the road. I appreciate you. All right. It's time for this week's team visit, and the timing worked out absolutely perfectly on this. We were going to talk about the dolphins anyway with Josh Tolentino from the athletic, but now we have a lot more to talk about.

We're recording this, I don't know, five, six hours after the dolphins announced that Tua Tua Tua Tunga Volo is going to be their starting quarterback moving forward. Josh, I'm sure it's been a big day for you. You've been a little busy over there? Robert, man, what a hectic day. And I think it's one that Dolphins fans, for several decades since the Dan Marino days, they've been waiting for. They've been suffering through a lot of subpar poor quarterback play over the past several years. And I think back in April, when the Dolphins selected to a Taga Voloa with the fifth overall pick, there was just so much excitement. But at the same time, that had to be tamed with knowing that Ryan Fitzpatrick is still here and he was going to serve this mentor, mentor, T rolled the Tua until the team thought he was finally ready and checked all the boxes both physically, mentally from a preparation standpoint. And you know what? They're here in week seven. They're sitting at three and three. And they're officially beginning the Tua Tagavela era here

in Miami. So a lot of excitement going on throughout the South Florida region. So my biggest, the biggest question, why now? Yeah, I mean, you look directly at the timing of the, move and you think that hey Ryan Fitzpatrick has led this team to a three and three record and you know after their wins and even their losses you have so many players on the team specifically on the offense Mike Gisicki saying you know I'll you know basically saying that I'll I'll go to war and and die for for a guy like Fitz that that's what people exudes in terms of you know what he brings to the table that he's always out there the you know the term fits magic is tossed around

every time he's on the field, it's either fits magic or fits tragic. But no matter what you get, you're going to get his all-out effort in terms of fighting and diving head first for those extra yards and, you know, making the spectacular play that, you know, in his form, you know, with his body frame. And I think the beard obviously sticks out that, you know, a typical guy like him wouldn't be making those plays. So he gets that rally, that fight from this team. But at this time, you know, flow, right. Ryan Flores, the head coach, he thinks that he's fully ready.

And I don't think it's just Flo's decision. I think also an organization standpoint that they see, hey, you know, we're in week seven, he gets two extra, you know, he gets an extra week, two weeks to prepare for the Rams. And not just that. They have a favorable schedule here in November. And at three and three, there's just one game out of first place behind the bills. So I think all that played a factor in the decision to start to a time now in Miami. So I feel like a lot of people have responded to this news with, well, they're in contention.

You know, if they could possibly win the division, why would they go away from Ryan Fitzpatrick? And I think that the number one factor that has defined the Chris Greer, Brian Flores era in Miami, is that they've been willing to abide by their own timeline, whether that was with team building or how bad they got and how much they tore it all down. And I think the same thought process applies to this. I don't think they can win the division. Let's keep Fitzpatrick in there. is sound decision making.

I think you should be making choices based on how good this team can be next year, two years from now, three years from now. And if you believe that putting two in right now will not actively stunt his development, getting as much information as you can

about him, about the rest of the team, and about how you should build moving forward before this season ends, is probably the way you should be going about this. So I completely understand why you would do it if you don't think it's actively going to deter from his development and from the development for the rest of the roster.

Exactly to that point is that a lot of people point to that Fitz has kept them competitive to this point. They point out his interceptions, which is, I think, third most in the league right now. But exactly that, I think from a day-to-day standpoint, they want to see what Tua and the rest of the offense can bring. But not, again, not just that. It's a long-term project here. You know, Tua is expected to be here for a long time. They drafted three rookie offensive linemen who have all started to this point. And, you know, the weapons around him, I think it's about seeing what he can do with this offense now.

And obviously, everyone knows about those draft picks that they got from the Houston Texans, the first and second round pick. So they've got a lot of ammo heading into the offseason, this upcoming off season. And this comes, Robert, after an off season where they spent a lot of money on, you know, several different pieces the most in the NFL at 200 million. on free agents. So I think that's a great point. It's all about the development and seeing how the pieces mesh because, again, they do have a lot of ammo heading to this winner. So there are two different pieces of the offense, I think, to kind of take into consideration.

How he's going to mesh with the weapons that they have. I think Kisiki is a really fun player. The way that they use him, I think it meshes very well with Chang'aulu's offense. Yeah, Preston Williams and Devante Parker on the outside, both of whom I think are interesting players. So the weapons are such that I think you're not putting a very important piece of your franchise into a position to fail. The offensive line is the bigger question. And there's been some discourse on the internet as there typically is about offensive line play in Miami today.

And when you look at what that group is compared to what they were last year, they're much better. But they're also a very young, inexperienced and flawed group that you're foot putting in front of, again, the future of your franchise potentially. do you think that that went into the thought process? Do you think that went into the decision saying, is the offensive line good enough for us to potentially put two in harm's way here when there isn't a ton to be gained in the short term? I think that was definitely a factor, Robert. And again, they've got three rookies on that offensive line

between Austin, Jackson, Solomon Kinley, and Robert Hunt there with Kinley and Hunt manning the right side now. Jackson's actually injured with a foot injury. But when you think of the offensive line and what they bring right now, I mean, it's so hard to judge. But to this point, I mean, they've held their own, but have they been a good offensive line? I think that's still a big question and thought that they really haven't.

But the biggest point here is that the expectations were so low following last season and just the horrid offensive line that they had last season. You know, Fitzpatrick finished with the team as the team's leading rusher, and that's never, you know, that's never a good sign. And, you know, they went and added a few veteran backs in Jordan Howard. You know, he's been a big disappointment, Matt Brita. And Miles Gaskin has emerged as that lead tailback there. But when you think about all those pieces that just how low of expectations were

coming into this season based off last year's performance in terms of, past protection and just the running game. They were the worst in the NFL, and I don't even think it was close. From that standpoint, yeah, they've improved. I still think they have a long way to go. I think that comes with any time that you only have one returning starter on that line in Jesse Davis, who I still think, you know, isn't a great tackle. I mean, he's a great six offensive lineman. You know, he can play all five positions, really, at least all four positions, even though he's taken snaps at a center in practice. So that's a great asset to have as a sixth offensive line.

But, you know, are they meeting expectations? I think that's a huge discussion, but they've definitely improved. But again, the bar was pretty low to begin with. It's a really good way to think about how offensive lines and quarterbacks interact with one another. Because Fitzpatrick, I think, has the third fastest time to throw in the NFL. When you watch them play, totally tracks. And there was a play against the 49ers where he hit Kisicki on a deep corner to the left side.

like a 70-yard gain or something. And when he lets that ball go, it's off his back foot with three guys chasing him. And that's a play that should be a sack that the quarterback turned into a really important play. That happens a lot if you watch the Dolphins film over the first six weeks. They also haven't played that many teams with strong pass rushes. And you watch guys like Kinley and Hunt. Kinley especially has been fun for me to watch. I went back and watched a couple games this morning.

And his play style, he's physical. He doesn't look like one of those slimmer guards. He's a bigger guy. He's aggressive. but his lateral quickness has a lot to be desired. Teams are going to put him in games. And when you have a longer developing plays potentially with a quarterback who's starting his first NFL game

and not a quarterback who's seen hundreds of thousands of NFL looks over the last decade and a half, you're going to see those cracks show up. I think the biggest question is, do they show up enough to put your quarterback in a potentially dangerous situation for his development? And clearly, the dolphins don't think the answer is yes because they're putting up.

him out there. Yeah, and you mentioned Kinley and how big of a guy he is. He actually granted me permission to start calling him his nickname that he's had now for several years. The big fish. I mean, the dude is, you know, 300. Yeah, on Zoom the other day, I asked him permission. He said, he's actually been one of the best interviews

that we've had. You know, interviews are so tough nowadays on Zoom with player interaction, but he's definitely been one of the most colorful guys on the team. And, you know, as a rookie class, I think really with any NFL rookie class. Those guys all come in together. They have that special bond that they're beginning their NFL careers together. So with that, you know, you've got the three offensive linemen between Hunt, Kinley, and Jackson who have that special bond with Tua. They got here together.

They went through under unique circumstances together and that they're going to do this thing together. Again, at that, as we, as you just mentioned, they're still in their first NFL game. And I mean, Hunt coming into this game against the Rams, it's just going to be his third NFL game. You definitely see a lot of mistakes in terms of, I think really the past protection side. While Fitz has had, again, the most time in terms of, you know, he's up there in leaders of how much time he has the throw, I think a lot of that can be attested to, or at least a good amount can be factored in, is that they haven't faced a dominant type pass rush in terms of, you know, their first six opponents. So, you know, they've got a big one here coming up,

next week in Aaron Donald, and I think there's going to be a lot of attention on that left side of how to protect. And with that, I think that Tua and Chan Galey, I'm going to be interested to see how many snaps he takes directly under center. I think there's going to be a lot of pistol, more motion that we've seen in these first six weeks, and definitely a lot of shotgun mixed in there to keep him away from, you know, that immediate pressure that you might face when you start a, you know, the snap under center. I'll be curious. I was going to ask you how you think the offense will change because with fits, it seemed like there were some RPO things where he could make some distinctions at the line. I mean, plays where he was making the decision so quick that there wasn't even a mesh point. He was just throwing the ball, even though the offensive line was run blocking. And I'm curious, because there was so much of that at Alabama where you're really allowing to his decision making and how fast his brain moves to take over. Do they do more of that? Because I think that more RPO is a lot of play action not only would serve his skill set, but would also put those offensive linemen in positions to succeed. Because those guys, again, are physical, they're aggressive, they're young, having them drop back 35 times a game, I don't think is in the best interest of them or their quarterback.

So how that offense looks and whether it looks significantly different with Tua quarterback versus Fitzpatrick, I think will be a huge question here over the first few games. Yeah, and I think just watching Tua and fits in practice and not just practice, but even warmups where fans can see, you just take simple videos. And the eye test, I think you just see so much more zip in velocity. and the short yardage throws when two is out there, you know, as he takes his reps after fits. But from an offensive standpoint, I would be, or I am curious to see how much RPO is called and not just that, how much they implement, you know, these multi-players like Jakeem Grant. They've got an Isaiah Ford more involved. But, you know, two guys who have similar skill sets, you know, they're their rookies.

They're both former college quarterbacks. They're trying to turn them into these hybrid running backs receivers. but Lynn Bowden originally drafted by the Raiders. He's actually had a few games here under his belt. And then Malcolm Perry, who's actually been inactive all season. But having those pieces and seeing how they fit around Tua, again, we talk about development and what they can see for the rest of this season. I think that all of that is going to play a big role into how they act this offseason

with all those draft picks. What have you seen in practice? I mean, I know you guys probably don't get to watch. as much as you would in a typical season, but if there have been moments in practice that have jumped out to you where it's like, oh man, this guy's ready. He's just as good, maybe better, the ceiling is higher. What elements of what you've seen or what you've heard from coaches have kind of led you to believe that this decision might be the right one? Yeah, I think there have been several moments, you know, even dating back to training camp,

where you see two of make the throw and you term it the throw because, you know, you think this is kind of a one-time moment of the day, but then he goes out and does it again the next day and the next day. So, I mean, he's definitely capable of making those electric-type plays downfield. But it's more so just his composure and really how he walks around the building. You can kind of see it in terms of his maturity, really at 22 years old. And obviously he was built under Nick Savan's program in Alabama. And a lot of that comes from being raised through that system, as you can say.

But I think it's more so his determination of, hey, I know what I'm doing here. I want to be the starter, but understanding that Fitz was the placeholder, and that's a term that Fitz actually gave us the very first time we talked in training camp is that he's the placeholder. He knows that he's here temporarily in terms of what he's going to do at the beginning of the season and that it's going to be two a time eventually. I think there were just so many moments throughout camp and throughout practices. And even in games, I think many football fans have seen on nationally televised games

that Tua is rooting for Fitts, this past game and really the game in San Francisco, there were moments after the offense would score and Fitz is jogging back to the sideline. And you see Tua just jump into his arms and Fitz will literally catch him and start carrying him around the sideline. I mean, that's just the type of relationship they've built. And, you know, you talk a lot about or you hear or really we've seen that the veteran and the rookie that doesn't go well all the time. That's not a guarantee.

You look at Aaron Rogers and Brett Farrb, obviously, is one of the most obvious examples. But I think this was a perfect situation in terms of the veteran rookie mentor, mente, them knowing their roles, and then, you know, Tua finally being able to take over. I think it's such a fascinating dynamic. And I think that part of it is really interesting to me, again, the examples that we've seen and how it can go either way. But just kind of betting on which version of your future is the smarter one, right? So let's say that right now, Ryan Fitzpatrick is a better quarterback for the dolphins to win football games than two ways. Maybe he's not, but if it's close.

But you could win the AFC East, let's say, or get a wildcard spot if you kept Fitzpatrick in. Is that version of your season more important to your long-term franchise development than getting 10 starts for the guy you want to be your quarterback with the young nucleus that you have and missing the playoffs? which one is better for you two years from now? I think that is a question they probably had to think about. And I don't really know the answer, but they clearly think it's the latter because they're going away from something that's working to something that they want to be their future.

Yeah, I think it's the latter as well, Robert. And we discussed earlier about where this team is and how many people want to think that, hey, they're competitive, they're at three and three, that playoffs are discussion. But I think everything goes back to, look at where Brian Flores is in his coaching tenure. I mean, he's just in year two.

Going into the season, we all knew this is still a rebuild in terms of they're only in their second year of this rebuild as they term. But I think the biggest distraction here is how they're going about with the rebuild. You know, they add and, you know, again, the free agents that we mentioned earlier. A rebuilding team doesn't really do that, you know, in terms of just shelling out money to these. veteran players and, you know, discussing the actual terms of their contract can be another story or a whole other discussion in terms of where they valued or not. But a rebuilding team doesn't usually do that. But I think it all comes back down to exactly that, but this is still a rebuild and that they're going to value these final 10 games under two of more than a playoff spot

under fits or being competitive under fits. And this was a tough decision. I talked to a couple players earlier. And, you know, several, I think a majority of them were surprised that this was actually happening. And the way they found out was interesting that because of the by week, that it wasn't an official team announcement. And some of them found out the same way we all found out, which was just through obviously Twitter and the like of news being confirmed nowadays. So, but when it comes to valuing fits being able to keep this team competitive versus to his development and seeing what this team has in the latter 10 games of the season, what they have left. I think these next 10 games are going to say a lot about not just what

Tua brings to the table, but I think a lot will be focused on the pieces around him and where they need to direct those needs in the off seasons. That's going to be the question is what's next now. So you're in this stage of the rebuild. And I think an underrated part of this stage of the rebuild has been how well the defense has been playing. That's where they put a ton of those resources. signed Eric Flowers, but outside of that, the major contracts they handed out, talking about Shaq Lawson, Kyle Van Nuoy, Byron Jones, they gave him manual by that deal. So that's where they put a lot of money. And it's working. You know, this team is fourth in the NFL and EPA per dropback. They're, I think, fifth in defensive DVOA against the pass. And the plan overall,

I think is crystallizing a bit. That's, you wanted, they wanted to be a past defense and they wanted to see what they could get with Tua. And that's what they've gotten so far. So when you're thinking about, all right, if this is the team they are through the end of the season, they play exactly this way for the next 10 games, where do you think some of those resources may be directed as they say, all right, let's move from stage two of the rebuild to, all right, we're ready to compete right now. Where does that Texans pick, the two Texans picks, their own picks, what do they still need, do you think, as you kind of judge the entire roster right now? Yeah, I think you mentioned the past defense and really we can include the past rush. That really

didn't come to form until these past few games where we really kind of saw that, hey, this is why they went and opened their wall, this is why they spent their money. The defense actually, I think, struggled. I mean, it's very fair to say they struggled, you know, allowing Josh Allen to throw for a career high in week two. But as the weeks have progressed, you're starting to see, hey, this is the Shaq Lawson that they wanted. This is the Kyle Van Nuoy that they brought in here.

And then again, with Byron Jones health, he's finally being able to be out there with that secondary. this is why we brought Byron Jones in. As we move forward, I think really that offensive line, I think 10 games is a pretty good assessment in terms of, hey, we see what Robert Hunt brings to the table. If Austin Jackson's able to get back in there, we can see how all three of them fit.

And, hey, do we need to spend another pick on the offensive line, which was a big need of addressing this past off season? I think they'll know that answer here in these next two. two months. But when it comes to, you know, wanting to pick a position for those next two, those specific two draft picks from, you know, that trade with Houston, I mean, I think you've got to consider wide receiver. You look at the weapons they have now. Obviously, Devonce Parker is a known guy. I still, I'm not, you know, Preston Williams, he's a very, I don't even know how you want to term it, but he's a very like, he's a useful player. Yeah, he's useful. But there are

times where it's just he's he disappears at times and um i think a lot of that can be a factored back to the injury in the acl last year and he's you know we talk about year marks following the injury you know both him and two are approaching their year marks since obviously preston's knee injury and two is a hip injury you know how that goes into their their head on game day i think that plays a big role that they're about to hit this year mark of when they suffered those injuries so I think they want to be able to provide him with not just the protection, but also the proper weapons here, you know, as we say year two and year three over these next couple of years with Tua.

It seems like that could be a spot that they absolutely could add somebody. And then you look at the defense, it's fun to watch a plan come together. You know, you watch how they built this team and you have Iron Jones, you have Zavian Howard. Going back to watch Savian Howard, it's amazing what they can do defensively because they have him. He is absolutely that same. Stefan Gilmore, number one corner. We are going to let you lock up on the outside and use our resources elsewhere. And the way that allows a guy like Bobby McCain to kind of roam around a little bit, it's working.

The way they want to play on the back end is working. I think the question is what happens with the rest of the front seven. You know, linebacker is a position that they absolutely could do some stuff. I believe Landon Roberts is going to be a free agent. Camille Grubier Hill, I think is going to be a free agent. Those guys play a ton of snaps for them. The pass rush is interesting because they're very much in that, New England.

Mush Rush, we're not really going after people. We're standing people up kind of approach. Van Nuoy is a big part of that. So it's been fun. I mean, this team absolutely plays hard. They have a plan, I think, on offense and defense. And it's coming together. So they would be interesting to watch and worth watching, even if Tua hadn't been put into the lineup.

And now that he has, I mean, it really has worked. What they have tried to do to this point, I think it's gone about as well as it possibly could. And the credit goes to Brian Flores and the vision they had for how they wanted to build this team. Yeah, and you mentioned the additions on defense and how it's coming to form with the secondary and how Xavier holds his side. And typically in a week-to-week fashion, we've seen now in four consecutive weeks, he's leading the NFL in interception, having a pick each week. But when you look at the pass rush, I think the pass rush is one of the most interesting parts about this team is that in their wins,

they've all registered more than three sacks and all three wins. And the losses, they have two or less, no more than two and the three losses. So it's like when the Passorch shows up to play, that allows guys like Xavier Howard, Byron Jones, Bobby McCain to make plays. But I'm still not convinced about the Passors. I think this contract with Emmanuel Ogba is interesting. You know, the two-year, I think it was $15 million deal. It kind of feels like a fill in that, hey, you know, we saw, you know, a little bit of what he was

capable to do in Kansas City. you know, let's bring him here to kind of fill in and, you know, knowing that we have these extra graphics heading into this year, maybe we spend one on one of those edges. So I think that might be the thought process moving forward. It's interesting to me because they've built like New England in the way they want to play, but the resources don't necessarily align with that. New England doesn't pay pass rushers because they rely on games and twists and containing quarterbacks, and so they don't feel like they need a $15 million guy to rush the passer because that's not how they want to do it.

But the dolphins go out, they give Van Nuoy $14 million a year, or however much it was. He's 13.9 is his cap hit next season. You have Agba get a reasonable deal. Shaq Lawson gets that reasonable deal. But most of those guys are in the, especially Lawson and Ogba are bigger, you know, 270-ish, let's run some twists, let's run some games. So it's interesting. I think that that's, when you're looking at New England influence teams and how they

try to follow that blueprint, they often don't spend the resources the same way the Patriots do, even if they want the same final product, if that makes sense. So I'm curious whether they are willing to say, yeah, we want a pass rusher in the top five because for the most part, the way they play, it doesn't really seem like they value guys who are one-on-one edge winners in the same way that a traditional team might. Yeah, they really don't. And you bring up the New England style of play and not just play, but personnel and how flow operates the team. I mean, that's really all he's known over the past decade is how to operate under that Bill Belichick style of coaching. And I think you see it on every level. It's not just,

you know, we talk about how they award playing time. I mean, the cornerback situation, the first three weeks, the snap count, if you were to like put it in a graph form, Robert, I'm imagining like just a up-down crazy type roller poster graph of, you know, the cornerback play was not consistent at all. You had Nick Needham who led the team in snaps last year, defensive snaps. And this dude, I mean, he started, I think, week one. He didn't play it all week two.

I might have those mixed up, but it was just back and forth, back and forth, didn't play at all, played a lot. So the way that flow goes about managing his team, I think managing is a good word. It's very similar to what you see in New England and the play style. But again, a few differences when you talk about how they're awarding these contracts, especially this past off season.

Well, I think it's worth looking at because one of the things that can stunt your development as a team is when you spend money in free agency on players that are available for a reason in free agency and it blocks pathways to playing time for younger players on the roster. I think you've seen that in places like Houston. for example. But the dolphins, I think, have done a good job of balancing it where you're giving out contracts to create an identity in a nucleus for your roster, but you still are giving opportunities to younger guys. The fact that Miles Gaskin is they're running back and they said he's the best guy, let's give him the snaps. I think that's a good thing. I think you should try to balance those two

things. And I feel like they've done a good job of doing that, even if it's difficult to pull off. Yeah, you can't, you know, our viewers can't, or our listeners can't see me right now through the pod, but as you said that, I'm nodding my head like in big motions, that Miles Gaskin is kind of the clear product of this system that they, again, we mentioned earlier, this was the worst rushing team in the NFL last year. And Miles Gaskin was part of that. You know, they obviously had a handful of backs last year, but, I mean, he was part of that equation and, you know, they didn't see this type of Miles Gaskin.

this past, I mean, last year, I should say, but he gets to camp. I mean, he's one of the most improved players on the roster. And then we actually talked to Eric Studsville, the running backs coach today. And I think a great quote that he said is that, you know, Miles Gaskin arrived, and this wasn't the same miles that we saw, you know, in the final games of the 2019 season, that he came and he, you could clearly see the dedication. And, you know, in typical, in another franchise and another, NFL team. Typically, you know, that second year guy who struggled his first year,

especially he wasn't really a high draft pick. He's not going to be overtaking a guy that you just awarded almost $10 million to in Jordan Howard. But that's exactly what's happened here in Miami. And not just Jordan Howard. They traded for Matt Brita, you know, still obviously analytically, one of the fastest players in the NFL. I still think they could got to find a way to get him more involved in Chan Galey's play calling. But, really when you add those two veteran backs, I don't think Miles Gaskin was even in discussion in terms of how many snaps he would get.

I think we all thought he was going to be the clear number three guy behind Howard and Matt Brita, but you look at, you know, we're six weeks in and it hasn't even really been close. Howard's been inactive the past two games. And I don't think there would be many NFL teams where, you go out and award a guy, a contract like that, two years, almost 10 million.

And you've got a guy on the payroll just in his second. year after a terrible season who is leading the team there in the backfield. It's a really, it's definitely a cool balance between flexibility and commitment to your vision for your franchise. And I think that that's what they've exhibited for the last two years as they've gone about this plan. And I think that the Tua decision aligns with that because you're winning. You could easily rationalize keeping them on the bench because you want to do as much as you can to maximize the 2020 season. But in the end, how important is the 2020 season really when you don't actually have a chance

to compete? You should be playing for 2021 and 2022. And in my mind, it kind of feels like that's what the Tuia decision is. So it's definitely a team worth watching. I'm excited to see how the rest of the season goes for them. And I really appreciate your insight and your time. So everybody, you should definitely go read Josh on the athletic. You read all of his thoughts on the Tuwa decision, on where the dolphins are at.

And yeah, man, thanks a lot. We'll talk to you soon. Yeah, Robert, really appreciate it. You know, whatever you want to term it, it's funny. The decision falls on a Tuesday that it was leaked. You can call it to a Tuesday, like it a little takeover, whatever you want to call it. But it's officially two a time in Miami. And I think we're going to learn a lot more about, you know,

one of the most accurate quarterbacks in NCAA history, at least over these next 10 games. The number one touchdown percentage in the history of college football, I think by two percentage points, my old editor from the ringer Ben Glickman, who is the number one to a fan. on planet Earth made me, made sure to let me know that before I recorded this segment. So, all right, Josh, thanks a lot, man. We'll talk to you soon. I appreciate it, Robert.

All right, guys. Thank you so much for listening today. Thank you to Darius Butler for joining us. Thank you to Aaron Donald for coming on the show. Thank you to Josh for talking to a. We will be back tomorrow with Lindsey Jones to break down all things week seven. Until then, please rate and review the podcast on your podcast app of choice. I would sincerely appreciate that.

please subscribe to The Athletic. Dollar a month promotion is still going. Visit theathletic.com slash football show. Until then, though, thank you very much for listening. Talk to you guys later. This was The Athletic Football Show.