The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Aaron Glenn heads to the Jets as the brain drain in Detroit continues

Episode Date: January 22, 2025

One week ago, the Lions were one of the favorites to win Super Bowl LIX. Now, they are an eliminated team that has lost both of its coordinators. Zack Rosenblatt joins Robert Mays to discuss Aaron Glenn signing on as head coach of the Jets on this episode of The Athletic Football Show. Then, Colton Pouncy jumps on to dig into where the Lions go from here now that Glenn and Ben Johnson have left for head coaching jobs.Host: Robert MaysCo-Host: Derrik KlassenWith: Zack Rosenblatt and Colton PouncyExecutive Producer: Michael BellerProducer: Michael BellerSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeFollow Robert on Bluesky: @robertmays.bsky.socialFollow Derrik on Bluesky: @qbklass.bsky.socialFollow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow Derrik on X: @QBKlassTheme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Big news today, Aaron Glenn, heading to the Jets as their next head coach. Our preview show is the next show that we had on the docket. So I wanted to take some time and some space to actually discuss the Aaron Glenn move and not step on the conference championship game previews that we're going to have rolling out on Friday. So here to help me do that today are our two writers who cover the teams involved. First off, it's our Jets writer at the Athletic, Zach Rosenblatt,

talking about why the New York Jets landed on Aaron Glenn, what this means for the future of the franchise and some of the other decisions that are still to come for the Jets here over the next couple months. We also chat with Colton Pouncey, who covers the Lions for us here at the Athletic, to discuss what happens next in Detroit. You move on from both coordinators, who are the candidates to fill those jobs? Are they in-house? Are they going to look outside? And what role does Dan Campbell have to play in all of this as the Lions retool really for the first time since he took over? Before we dig into any of that, though, a little bit of breaking news happened right before we started recording. Trent Balke is out as the Jacksonville Jaguars GM.

I don't remember what sort of language they used in the statement, conscious uncoupling, something in that regard about them deciding to move on from Balke and him deciding to move on from them. Better late than never, I guess. I think that's really the only place I land in this. The fact that now you've missed out potentially on multiple head coaching candidates, because you decided to retain a GM that I don't understand the argument for retaining. This is now multiple cycles of trying to hire a head coach where they kept a general manager who hasn't done an overwhelmingly good job.

If there's somebody that you feel like he's done such a great job building the roster, like there's no way we can move on from this. The continuity is more important than us being able to coax a head coaching candidate that's afraid of the power this guy has. Maybe. I guess I can understand that, but that's not what the situation was in Jacksonville. You heard Sean Cod talk about it earlier this offseason and him just saying, well, you know, we'd have to fire so many people. We'd have to start over again.

Yeah, man, that's what happens. When you're a team that needs a fresh start, sometimes you have to start over again. And I think the Jags are in that place. And for them to come to that conclusion so deep into the process, obviously puts them behind the eight ball. This is not catastrophic, though. There are plenty of guys out there who I think could be. interesting head coaching candidates that are still looming out there that may not even get scooped up by the Raiders or the Saints, even though they're a little bit further ahead of

the Jags now in figuring all of this out. You know, if you land Joe Brady at the end of all of this and you think he's the best coach for what you want to be moving forward, that's not necessarily the worst place to be. I think too often in this process specifically, and this can get colored by how attractive a candidate Ben Johnson was, people get freaked out about having to pick the last guy. Well, there are times where the last guy ends up being better than the first guy. You know, Frank Reich did a decent job in Indianapolis. He was not their first choice when they tried to hire Josh McDaniels.

So sometimes this can be a little bit uneven, but you can land in a decent spot. The problem I have with the Jags is the process of how they got here. It never seemed to make sense. It didn't make sense two years ago when they did this. But in the end, it's nice to see them arrive at the place they probably should have at the start. All right, let's get to our conversations with Zach and Colton about the Aaron Glenn move to the Jets right now. Joining us now is our wonderful Jets writer here at the athletic. It's Zach Rosenblatt.

Zach, how you doing? I'm good. Another wild week of Jets stuff. Aaron Glenn leaves the building. The entire Jets fan base falls apart, but he's coming back, so we're all good. At what point did you know this is probably the direction they wanted to head, and then at what point did you know this is probably where things would end of? for the Jets.

You know, also I think Mike Rable talked to them early and I think they were smitten with him. And when that didn't happen, he felt like the obvious candidate. You know, they talked to like a million people. I'd heard they really liked Arthur Smith. I heard they liked, you know, people on the list like there in Reasy. Like there's guys that they liked. But at the end of the day, it kept coming back to him. And when they only scheduled one second interview, and then it was like, okay, he's the guy.

And then, you know, and then you start second guessing yourself as you're sitting there hours and hours on a Tuesday waiting for the news to drop and you start to wonder like is it happening or not is you going to make it to New Orleans in the middle of this blizzard but um yeah ultimately it felt like him pretty much since Rable turned them down but i you know i i thought flora's had a chance at one point but ultimately Glenn kind of brings everything they want in this job um which i'm sure we'll get into but yeah he he just made so much sense i mean from the beginning i think when they fired solid and you're starting to think about who the candidates are he seemed like the most obvious one from the get-go because he has ties to this organization and, you know,

maybe the number one priority for a candidate. He was willing to take the job. So I think that was a big part of it. Why do you think it was him? Like, what were the traits he was bringing to the table that made him attractive to the Jets early in the process? You know, they, they throw the word accountability a lot around a lot here, culture, all those things. Those are things they have failed to cultivate over the years. And everything you hear about Aaron Glenn, in Detroit from the players, the coaches, people who know him, is that like he's a culture setter. He's a, you know, the cliche leader of men. He's going to stand in front of the room. He's going to, he's going to call you out, and then he's going to put his arm around you when he walks,

when you walk out of the room. And, you know, guys play for him. I think the effort that his defense put forth this year with all those injuries is kind of the opposite of what you've seen from the Jets, where when they faced adversity, they'd fall apart under Robert Sala and Jeff Ulbrick. And so I think all those things kind of tie into it. I know there are, you know, I'd say the fan base is generally pretty split. I'd say half is very excited and the half are like, why are we doing another defensive coach who's never been a coach before? And I think those are fair concerns.

But I think they just needed to find the best leader, the best person to change the culture. And obviously the quarterback and the offensive coordinator, all that stuff is going to be very, very important. But more than anything, they just need somebody who, number one, knows how to talk to Woody Johnson and deal with him, knows what it takes to win in the New York market. and knows how to build a culture. And he's learned from Bill Parcells. He's learned from Sean Payton and he's learned from Dan Campbell.

Those are probably his three biggest influences, I would say. And I'd say those are three pretty good influences about when it comes to leadership and building culture and accountability and all that stuff. I want to talk about understanding the market, understanding the organization, because I do think that's a big thing here. But before we do that, the side of the fan base that's not overly excited about this, who did they want? What was the archetype of coach that the people who were maybe

a little bit dissatisfied. What were they chasing? So number one is they wanted all the hot offensive play caller names who the Jets weren't interviewing, which I think also angered them. They didn't interview Liam Cohen, Todd Munkin, Cliff Kingsbury, Ben Johnson. I think a couple of them made it clear they weren't interested in the Jets anyway, but I don't think they fit the mold of what the Jets wanted. I mean, one that really gained steam in recent weeks, I would say, is Josh McCown, actually, because he's the guy who played here again, well-liked by everybody. He's, uh, offensive guy. I think he's viewed as a future head coach, all those things. And there's a lot,

there's a lot of like, let's get him before. It's, let's get him too early rather than, you know, let somebody else get him watch and become a star head coach or whatever. So I think that's kind of the mold that the fans were looking at. But, you know, the Jets, you know, they did talk to offensive play callers. Like I mentioned, they, they talked to guys like Arthur Smith, who I know, you know, isn't the most exciting candidate. But there was some offensive coaches on it. But at the end of the day, yeah, they, they were looking for something, someone who, you know, could sit down in that room with them and really just show the attributes of like a leader, a leader that they liked. And Mike Vrable did that, not to keep circling back to that, but like, he went in there and he

blew them away. And they really thought they had a shot at him. And then the Patriots job opens, and they were kind of depressed about that in the beginning. And then once Aaron Glenn became the target, like they focused in on him, they talked to other coaches, all that stuff. They did their research. But they, they settled on Glenn at the end of the day. Every conversation I've ever had with Aaron Glenn, which is probably three or four in my life. I come away thinking a few different things. One, he's a man of very quiet intensity. You know, there isn't, he's just, there's just something kind of smoldering about him in a good

way. And I think that you see that in the way that his players play. And the other side of it is, he understands what he wants from the players on his defense and how he wants his defense to play. I remember talking to him this summer and just about the moves they had made this offseason when they went and traded for Carlton Davis and they drafted Terry and Arnold in the first round. We were talking about Terry and Arnold, and he says to me, he goes, that's a corner. You know, everything about him, his mentality, the way he talks, the way he moves

to the world, that's a corner. And that's what I want. And that really stuck with me because I think he really wanted to play this man-heavy sort of defense that they were allowed to play in New Orleans. The personnel didn't really align with that for his first couple of years in Detroit. So they kind of ping-ponged between these different play styles until he got the guys that he wanted. And then by the end of this season, when the secondary specifically was healthy, the defense was still excellent because of the cohesion they had on the back end. So I think he has a real vision for what he wants out of his players and his defense. But the other thing that always stuck out to me, and I think this kind of brings us back to the conversation about coaching in New York, he seems very, very comfortable with who he is and in his own skin. And I think if you're the coach of the Jets and you have to deal with people like you all of the time, that becomes something.

thing that is really important, like a lack of insecurity and kind of a self-assuredness and a confidence about how you're going to move through this job and take on what is a really tall task considering the lack of recent success and just the pressure that comes with that market. I think he's set up to succeed there in ways that a lot of other coaches wouldn't be. And that's why I'm at least excited to see how this goes. Yeah. You know, there is the whole thing about the big bad New York media. I don't think we're as bad as people say, but it is.

It is. It's more, I think it's more about the fan base. Yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, it's a combo of all of it and radio and all that stuff. Yeah. But, yeah, you know, I mean, not every coach has been able to handle. Like, New York media is maybe more willing to be critical even than, not saying other media groups aren't, but there's more of us. And so when there's a lot of people being negative and then you have the radio shows and all that stuff.

Like some coaches have not been able to handle that. The hard questions when you're losing, you know, as Robert Salah always said, when you lose it, the apocalypse and when you win, it's like you're winning the Super Bowl in New York. Like, that's how it is. That's exactly right. They smell blood in the water very, very quickly. Even if you don't, I think overall, the city itself and the radio culture, everything else, when there is blood in the water, the sharks become ravenous very fast.

Yes. And I think Sala struggled to handle that sometimes. I think Todd Bowles was a little stoic and maybe not as invested in it. Adam Gase was Adam Gase, had his own problems unrelated to the media. And, you know, Rex Ryan kind of like a. attacked it head on and it worked for the most part until it didn't. But yeah, you know, I don't think, I don't think Aaron Glenn is going to be phased by. We won't know until we see it. I imagine even, you know, everybody talks about how beloved he was as a player. I imagine over the

course of his 10 years, there was probably moments where fans were not so nice to him too. Like I imagine he went through that. Like, and yeah, there's there. And to your point about, you know, being authentically him, I even more than the media and all that stuff, I think players can tell pretty quickly when somebody is. Absolutely. That's the, that's the cliche. Everybody always says like they're going to they're going to be able to spot it if you're not being yourself pretty quickly. And I don't think that's ever going to be an issue with him. The thing with these coaches all the time is it's not so much how they handle winning. Like it's easy, it's kind of easy to handle winning to a degree. But it's how you handle the losing and the adversity. And that's, you know,

when you're winning, everybody is the best coach. Everybody's the best teammate. The culture is amazing. When you're losing, it can fall apart pretty quickly if you don't have the right leadership. So I think the fact that another appeal, even just beyond his history at the Jets, I think early career they lost a lot of games and they think they won like three and then they won like nine games and back to back years but he you know he went to a lion's organization that was obviously very bad for a long time they had three wins that first year steadily built it up and yeah so i i'm very curious you know i know a lot's made of introductory press conferences probably too much either in the the good or the bad but i'm just what i'm hoping is that he doesn't fall into the trap that many jets coaches have in the

past where they put the cart before the horse you know we want to win multiple super bowls you know we want to this, this and this. Like, you need to, you know, take it one step at a time. They need to make the playoffs. And so I hope, you know, he just, he focuses on the right things. I think he will. And I think he has the personality to handle it to your point. I like the one step at a time thing because that's how it happened in Detroit.

You talk about being able to maintain a culture through losing. The lions were awful in their first year in Detroit. People were calling for Dan Campbell that first year. Yeah. You felt how hard they played, though. By the end of that season, I just so vividly remember sitting here with Nate as we were watching like the two-win lions in week 16 and be like, man, they play so hard, though. And being able to maintain that buy-in when things aren't necessarily going very well,

I think that really is a signal for what you should be chasing because even for teams that are maybe set up a little bit better than those lions were or these jets were, you're right. You are going to have those swings and trying to ride out those swings. That is the challenge of being a head coach in the NFL, and he's already been able to do that. And the, you know, what they were doing in Detroit, you talk about winning the press conference. and what Dan Campbell said and the kneecaps and everything else. I think as I've talked to more people about what culture actually means in an NFL context, I think the three things I keep hearing people say to me and I keep coming back to.

One is just honesty, right? If I come into the building, what do you expect of me? Am I going to be a starter? Am I going to have to fight for a job? Like, just tell me how it is so I know going into it. I'm an adult. And then you have to balance that, I think, with accountability where if it's not going very well, can you be honest with your players about what they need to do better?

You know, if there's a rep where you don't love it or there's a week where you don't love it, you call that out. You have to offset that. And I think this is kind of where the secret sauce was in Detroit with an understanding from the players that you care about them. If you call them on their shit and you ask them to be better, as long as that's rooted in like real care and real investment in them being the best version of themselves, that goes a really long way. Like that sounds like kumbaya nonsense, but if you can combine all of those things together, I think you could. really have a lot of returns on that. And I do think a lot of that was going on in Detroit. And if you can snatch some of that, I think that you have a real chance like the Lions did

of breathing life back into a franchise that desperately needs something new. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, again, to circle back to like his influences, like he, he worked for coach. I mean, Bill Bartels was maybe more of an old school football coach, but Sean Payton, Dan Campbell, you know, you talk about outside of his influences, but like the kind of coaches that are the most successful to your point of, like, you know, being able to criticize them, but they know that you care about them and that you're laying it out for them. You know, Mike Rable, Mike Tomlin, Sean McVeigh, like, these are all coaches that are able to do those things. And that goes beyond the play calling and they can all be geniuses in play calling.

But if you want to win for the New York Jets, like that's where you start. Like at the very minimum, you need to be a coach who's willing to call out your stars, not just, not just the guy at the bottom of the roster. Like, Toss Gardner needs to be, you know, if he's missing tackles over and over again, needs to be let known that it's not going to be okay if greg zirlein is missing kicks week after week and losing games for you then you have to be willing to bench him like you know jeff olbrick at the end of the season tried telling i mean again what you say in the media doesn't ultimately matter like it's behind closed doors more than anything but like jeff olig's going in at the podium and saying

how husson reddick's one of the best teammates he's ever coached like this guy held out for all of of training camp all of oTAs half the season and was not performing so like you need to be able to read the room and you need to be able to, you know, again, it doesn't matter if it's in the media. I mean, it helps because you're, if you say the right things. Like, you don't need to call out players in the media, I should say. But he just needs to handle it better than these last few coaches have. And again, this locker room is a group, whether it's the Aaron Rogers of it all. It's Garrett Wilson, all these guys who Robert Salas culture was the players are going to lead themselves.

That's what I believe in. Well, when things got bad, you had a bunch of young guys who have never really been leaders in that way before. and it backfired in a big way. Not to say, I mean, the locker room stuck together to their credit, but you didn't have anyone who was able to, like, just call other people out and, you know, get everything swinging in the right direction, get everybody flowing in the right direction,

correct the mistakes that are there, not just keep doing the same thing week after week if it's not working. Like they, I believe more in Aaron Glenn's ability to like adjust week to week based on what's coming than I did maybe the previous staffs. And so, yeah, it's a combination of all those things. If you want to succeed in New York, obviously the football stuff's important, the play calling, the quarterback, but this is just a group that needs an adult in the room and not somebody who's going to be your friend.

I mean, he can be both, but they need somebody who's going to be an adult in the room. Aaron Glenn, by all counts, has that ability. Defensive head coaches, and I understand the frustration with this. I was crowing from the rooftops that I wanted the Bears to hire a guy in the Ben Johnson mold, in part because they already had a quarterback. And I think that making sure you're setting that quarterback up to succeed is important. if you're going to be a defensive mind head coach or a CEO, you need to get the offensive hires correct. It is one of the most important things that you have to do from day one.

So what, based on your understanding of it, what does that look like right now? Who are some of the names that might be a part of that offensive coaching staff when this thing gets going with Aaron Glenn? Yeah, the biggest names I've heard over the last few days are Nick Cayley, he's, I think, the passing game coordinator in L.A., so you'd be plucking from the base staff. passing game coordinator. Yeah. Other teams have pursued him in the past and he's kind of been waiting for the right

opportunity, but I think he's the top target. But Clint Kubiak's another one. I think he's pretty high their guard. Scott Turner was someone I was mentioned. I don't think he'll get the job. Mark Brunell, quarterback's coach in Detroit. There's another name. You know, I think he's going to do a pretty wide-ranging search.

But I think Kaylee is the top target. And that's, again, it's a first, you never know the first time office coordinator. Like, you just don't know. But you can do worse than pulling somebody from Sean McPhase coaching. staff. So I think that's a good place to start, somebody with creativity, what it means for Aaron Rogers and whoever their quarterback is will be a question. But that's kind of the mold where it is. It's these younger play callers who maybe don't have a lot of experience, but are pretty highly regarded for their creativity, I would say. Nick is the number one person on my

offensive coordinator list coming into this offseason. And it's for a lot of different reasons. I think that, one, the energy is insane. Like, when you leave a conversation with Nick, it's kind of like leaving a conversation with Sean McVay in what they're bringing to the discussion. And that's kind of why I think them landing together is interesting. Nick and Sean didn't really have like a previous connection when he went out to LA. Nick is a Patriots guy. Like Nick Cayley was raised in the Patriots organization as their tight ends coach. So Nick went over to L.A.

And after for the 23 season. And that was the first time he had really coached outside of the New England system. And so I think L.A. was good for him in his football education in a few different ways. seeing a different way of doing it from the way that Belichick did it, I think is big. I think seeing different types of leadership styles, coaching styles is very important. But also offensively, the construction and the ideas behind the Rams offense are extremely different than the construction and the ideas behind the Patriots offense. And this is personnel and how you deploy it and the run game of what it looks like, all that.

But even the way it's taught in L.A. in terms of progressions and how the quarterback sees the offense, how it's communicated to the quarterback, that's extremely different than what it was in New England. And so I think seeing the NFL game from two different sides and being able to kind of come out on the other side and say, okay, when it's my chance, how can I kind of combine all of this stuff to make the best version of the offense I want to run? I think having that background as a coordinator is important because it gives you flexibility and you can step outside of just a Xerox copy of whatever offensive system you came from.

And I thought the other part of this, he was offered the Patriots office coordinator job last year and did not take it. The self-awareness in that choice to know, you know what, I like it here. I enjoy the energy here. This is good for me. Let me get one more year under my belt. That's a difficult decision to make when somebody is giving you a really significant promotion. And if you look at some of the other guys whose names have been thrown around, Gerard Johnson, Josh McCown, Gerard, based on his office recording interviews last year, I heard they went well. I heard he was somebody that was worth putting stock in. He's very young. He has not been around this very long. Kaley's 42. He's been in the league for a while. I think he is really set up

to take the best possible run at this. So when I saw that name is the first one that was thrown out, I was like, there it is. That is the guy I would bet on. I am not surprised that Aaron Glenn, who has been an assistant in the NFL for a very long time, had Nick Kaley at or near the top of his list. The, I don't know if irony is the right word is when Robert Sala was forced to fire Michael Flore, one of the people he talked to was Nick Kaley. But I think he either was required or was looking for an experienced play caller and that led you to Nathaniel Hack it. So just kind of the, it's kind of like an interesting what if right there if the Jets hadn't been able to reel him and instead of hack it like how much different. I mean, they probably don't get Rogers, but

it's a fascinating thing. But yeah, you know, the Jets have had bad offenses for as long as I can remember. And so like they've been trying to find like the best offensive coordinator they had in the last 10 years is probably either or 10 to 15 years is either Brian Schottenheimer or John Morton and they weren't like they weren't blown anybody's top off so um i listen you're speaking my language over there i understand that existence very very well yeah but so it'd be nice to get i mean i think leflore was heading in the right direction he was inexperienced he was a little wet behind the ears but um cayley is somebody that would be exciting and would be kind of fun for me to watch like i'd like to watch them creativity in offense because i had to watch nathaniel hackett running it on first

and second down the last two years and then throwing it too short of the sticks and um i'd like to watch them exciting offense and not bland, boring, stupid offense. I think a lot of people when they talk about the McVeigh stuff and the joke about how, if you've ever had a conversation with Sean McVe, you're going to be a head coach in the NFL. Sean is a very good eye for coaching talent. If he's consciously seeking these people out, there's probably a reason behind that. And the fact that Nick is somebody that was not previously in his orbit sought him out as they were kind of retooling their offense and coaching staff in 2023, that's a signal I would

pay attention to if I were a team that was looking for an offensive coordinator. There's no way to ever know how these guys are going to be when they call it. That's a different feel that you only kind of gain experience there when you do it. How is the game flow going? What do you do in certain moments? But the energy and the ideas, I'm very excited about that. We talk about the quarterback decision and some of the roster decisions. This team also needs a general manager.

So where are we at right now with the state of that search? And do you feel like the Glenn decision shapes this potentially in any way? So it felt like it was going to be a package deal with Lancet. Newmark. I get the impression that maybe that was a little overblown. He's the only one that's gotten a second interview so far. They had a little history in Detroit. He was in Washington last year, but I think they're going to start interviewing some more guys. They interviewed, I think 15 already. So I think some of these guys will get second interviews. I think John Eric Sullivan, somebody I have my eye on. I thought Al Calabee would have been an interesting one. I don't get the impression.

He's going to get a second interview. So I think that search is still going to be ongoing. And now you have Aaron Glenn in the room. And I don't think that's a bad thing. I know some people are skeptical about whether you should hire a GM or a head coach first. But if Aaron Glenn is your guy, bring him in, find a GM that he can work with, that they're kind of aligned in terms of their thinking. And yeah, so I think that process is going to play out over the next week or so. And I would think they would have a GM in place by this time next week, would be my guess. Anybody else other than Newmark that you are interested in that you feel like either has gotten a second interview or mites that people should be thinking about? I mean, John Eric Sullivan is

one who I think is interesting because, you know, he was involved with the scouting of Jordan Love, I think he's been pretty highly regarded in Green Bay for a little bit. He got interviews with the Tennessee Titans, and I think he might have gotten another one. I think Brian Gutakins is somebody that's, you know, he's a pretty good jury. He's done a good job of building a roster. So he'd be somebody I'd be interested in. I think that would lead to Aaron Rogers, almost certainly not being here because I think he came in towards the latter stages when Aaron hated everybody. So I don't know that.

I wonder how that would impact the decision or if that even factors in. But yeah, he's kind of the one I have my eye on. That's going to be the next big domino here that has to fall. is what's going to happen, a quarterback for this team. And then what that means for just the team building process in general. Because if you move on from Rogers, then you have, and you move on from Devante Adams, which I assume they will, just financially. Then you have a really, really young roster where it just kind of changes the timeline and the thinking.

There's a lot of fun sliding doors moments potentially for what the Jets are going to look like moving forward based on some of the decisions that are going to be coming here in the next six or eight weeks. And we will be keeping tabs on all of that. Zach Rosenblatt, sincerely appreciate the time, sir. Thanks for jumping on. I know you are very busy right now. Yeah, thanks for having me, man.

All right, before we move on, we are going to take a quick break. Joining us now to discuss the other side of the Aaron Glenn move to the New York Jets. It is our Lions writer here at the Athletic. It's Colton Pouncy. Colton, how are you? Doing great, man. I thought my offseason was going to be a little quieter, but also kind of expected some of this. But, you know, getting off to a good start here.

Well, this is where the Lions have arrived as a franchise. On January 22nd, you were doing one of two things. You're either preparing to play in the conference championship game or you're having your entire staff rated because you've had sustained success. They've had to stave this off. They've gotten to stave this off for multiple off seasons for way longer than you should, given how this is gone. That's been the funniest part of, and we don't need to like sit in this, but that's been the funniest part of the vitriol toward Ben Johnson for me from Wyant's fans, where they feel abandoned by him. He was an offensive coordinator there for two years longer than he had. had to be. That man put in his time. That man gave the franchise enough. Let him live and get his

$13 million a year. You're not buying the Benedict Johnson narrative that's being put out there by Lions fans? I think he's done just fine for the Detroit Lions. I think they've gotten all they need to out of Ben Johnson. This is the curse of being a successful team. And that is what the Detroit Lions have become. So let's talk about just the process of losing both coordinators and what is going to happen. What is going to have to happen now for this Lions team? And let's just start on the offensive side of the ball. Ben Johnson is gone. What in your mind is the plan for replacing him and potentially other guys on this staff

that might be headed some other places this offseason? Yeah, you know, I think obviously starting with Ben. You know, Dan Campbell told us early this week that he kind of wants to keep things kind of as they are, which to me signaled an internal hire. You know, he said he wants someone that can work well with Jared Gough and keep him comfortable. He wants to keep the terminology in place. Now that to me screams, let's bring a guy to shake things up from the outside. side. So when you're looking at internal candidates for office coordinator, I think a place you

started is with Tanner Engstrand. He's the passing game coordinator. Used to be tight ends coach when Ben was initially promoted to OC, kind of took his old job there. And then he took tight ends coach off his, off his plate ahead of last season and just say, hey, you're the passing game coordinator. We're closer with Ben. So I think to some of us on the beat, they kind of signaled, hey, we're preparing him to potentially take over for Ben when and if he does, you know, depart. And so he's always been a guy that's kind of been in the in the in the in the in picture there, but we just didn't know exactly, you know, how much of the say he had and game planning things like that. But it seems like the more involved he got, you know,

the more he was in Ben's year about certain things. And, you know, just lending letting a huffy hand for, for Ben Johnson there. But yeah, he, I think he would probably be the next guy up. But they do have candidates, you know, if you want to avoid losing a guy like Hank Freely, you know, a coveted, coveted offensive line coach, you know, Frank Ragnow and Pena Sewell, said he's not leaving, like we're not letting him leave. We're going to leak out some bad stories about him. So he doesn't leave. That kind of speaks to like how much they care about him here.

Maybe you try to find a way to promote him. But then again, it's like, you know, who knows if he's a good play call? He's great off as a line coach, but you never know. I'm sure, you know, Ben might want him in Chicago if that's realistic. I know he's interviewed for the Seahawks job a couple of times. So, you know, we'll see what ends up where he ends up. Scottie Montgomery is another guy that's gotten jobs or at least, you know, interviewed for jobs as a coordinator. he's been a college head coach he's called plays before in the past but never really at this level before

so maybe he's a guy that you want to promote and kind of keep he would be a good culture guy he's already on staff and kind of leads team meetings and things like that so certainly have some options then a guy like mark brunell quarterback's coach works really well with jared golf you know those two have a great relationship and just based on what dan was talking about is a guy that finding a guy that can work with jared you know he kind of fits that criteria so they got some options on staff but um just depends what direction they want to go. It's a fascinating collection of options. The Tenor-Anstern part, obviously that's the name that everyone's thrown around for the last couple years. His background is interesting. He started coaching with Jim Harbaugh. That's where his roots are. And so he's

seen offense and football from a couple different angles in what has been sort of a circuitous coaching career over the last like 20 years or so. The Hank Frelly part of this, I find so fascinating because I think there are multiple teams who are looking at it this way where if we need an offensive line coach, and we're prioritizing that. There are a few different ways that you can handle this. There are some teams that just pay their offensive line coach an insane amount of money. That's how Bill Callahan was in Cleveland. I don't know what he's getting paid in Tennessee.

It might be the playing for my son discount that they're getting with the Titans. But you have what Jeff Stoutland makes, which I'm sure is up there with any of the position coaches in the league. He's the run game coordinator in Philly. Some of these guys that don't aspire to bigger jobs are happy just coaching the offensive line and taking the paycheck. But if you're trying to get these guys away, offering them some quasi-coordinator role and then trying to pair them with somebody who can oversee the passing game, it's a creative idea. And I understand if you're the Seahawks,

why you want to go down that road, but that presents challenges for a team like the Lions that I think probably desperately wants to keep him. Yeah, no doubt. And like the, I think the only way, you know, maybe Hayk just wants to come back and just be offensive line coach. Maybe he's happy in that role. You know, some of the buzz out there suggests that maybe he's looking for a new challenge. And If that's the case, it's going to be hard. Taking those two interviews with the Seahawks would lead me to believe that I think he wants bigger and better things. Exactly. That's hard news for lines fans to swallow.

But like some coaches just, because a lot of people are just like, just making the most, you know, highest paid office of line coach and football. It's like, sure, that's one option. But if he doesn't want that, then you got to move on, right? So it's like, it really depends what he wants. Obviously, Dan Kempel wants to keep him around. You know, if he does want to go to Chicago and join Ben, I could totally see that. And I think he'd be a really good fit in terms of that role that you just kind of lead out with a play calling head coach. and you're the OC and kind of maybe control the run game, get the office line in shape, totally understand that.

We've seen that in several different places. When you look at OCs who are now offensive coordinators, the two names that come to mind for me are Adam Stenevich and Frank Smith, both of whom are OCs for play calling head coaches. So whatever blind spots you might have based on your background as an offensive line coach, it matters a little bit less when the other guy is calling the plays. Not saying you can't do it. Andy Reid was an offensive line coach, but it's just not a path we've seen taken quite as often. No doubt. And it would be a remarkable loss here in Detroit. There's no sugar coating that. You know, Frank Ragnall told us the other day, I don't know if I want to keep playing if Hank Freely is not my position coach. And he might be joking a little bit, but like he's getting up there a little bit. So it's kind of tough, man.

And, you know, the lines have drafted some young office of linemen if they're hoping to develop. And they're kind of leaning on Hank Freilly to kind of get the most of that guy. Like Giovanni Manu, a developmental tackle that he took at British Columbia in the draft this year. He's got all the tools. He's six, seven. He's, you know, built like a fridge. He's still learning how to be an NFL tackle. And I think to have a guy like Hank Freely, you know, coaching him up his rookie year, met the world to him. We talked to him during locker room clean out.

He talked about how much Hank meant as, you know, his rookie year position coach. So I think losing a guy like that, that's such a notable teacher, a great communicator, it would be a huge loss in an offseason that could be full of them for the lines. It's, you bringing that up, I think is so important because if you look at these teams who have really been able to sustain success in the development plans they've had for offensive linemen, the Eagles come to mind for me. Like what you can do with Jordan Milata as a developmental piece is possible because of Jeff Stoutland. And, you know, we'll see.

Taylor Decker's 31, you know, two years from now, if that's something where we need to save $25 million. If you can get mine into a place where he's ready, like, those are important pathways in, like, team building considerations. And the Christian mahogany part, like, if you're going to move on from Zightler this off season because he's a little bit older, you're going to have to tighten the belts a little bit financially. Like being able to develop those guys in the way that the Eagles did with a guy like Mackay Beckton this year, it's huge. It is a real cheat code when you're trying to cut corners and save money down the road as you continue trying to sustain some success. On the defensive side of the ball, the name that I think I've seen thrown around more than any for the in-house potential option is Kelvin Shepard, who I believe is a linebacker's coach. What have you heard about who could potentially be replacing Aaron Glenn and what does the thought process look like on that side of the ball right now based on what you know? Yeah, you know, I guess a couple days ago starting the week, a couple names I tossed out, just as maybe potential fits.

because they do have ties to Campbell, you know, Dennis Allen and Lou Anirumo, and both of those guys were immediately scooped up after my story ran. So that was great. That's kind of how it goes around this time of the year. But, yeah, I think I would probably start looking at internal candidates. And Kelvin Shepard is a guy that I think had they've been kind of like Tanner Angstrom on the other side, preparing him to take over for Aaron Glenn. And, you know, I talked to him for a story a couple years ago.

You know, when he got into coaching, one of the first people he hit up was Dan Campbell and just asked for advice and picked his brain. And this was long before he ended up joining the line staff. And, you know, Campbell said, be yourself, you know, don't try to be anyone. You're not. And I think that was so, that resonated so much with Kelvin. And he's a coach that is a player's guy, you know, he still interacts with the guys. He's still friends with a lot of players. And I think it shows through his coaches, shows through those players.

And he gets the most out of them as a result. The biggest thing for him was learning how to, like, put together a game plan. And I think over the years, he's asked, hey, can I help with this? Or, hey, you know, what do you see on this? Like, why do you want to go with this for this team? So he's been in Aaron Glenn's ear kind of picking his brain because he said, I want to be a D.C. one day. So that's always been a goal of his. I know he's got a couple options, I believe, on the table. He's kind of been in consideration for a few different jobs. So he's, I think he'll be in the mix for a DC job here sooner than later. And it could be here in Detroit. And I think that would make for sort of a seamless transition if you do want to promote from within. It's funny because when you look at teams that have had to go through this in the past, the Eagles are obviously the best recent example. They have to, they lose both coordinators. the year that they go to the Super Bowl.

And they decided to go one route on one side of the ball and another route on the other side of the ball. And both were wrong. Right? So they go with the in-house replacement on offense. Brian Johnson gets fired after one year. They go with the outside replacement on defense. And it turns out, going with an outside replacement on offense might have been good.

A guy they had on that staff that they let go was Dernard Wilson. He goes over to the Ravens for a year. Now he's the Titans defensive coordinator and did a very good job in Tennessee. and you had to fire your guy, replace it with Matt, Patricia halfway through the year, and then go out and get McFangio. So there's no real blueprint for how this goes. Like, sometimes the outside hire is correct. Sometimes the in-house guy hire is correct. So based on recent history, I don't think there's any indication of which direction you should go if you are the lions based on what we know at this point.

No doubt. Like, and Campbell said, you know, it's easy to say I want the best guy for the job, but for him it's the right guy. And, you know, one example he used was it's kind of unfortunate now looking back at it because he said this on Monday. But Terrell Williams, his former defensive line coach who just took the Patriots DC job, he worked together. Those two work together in Miami with the Dolphins from Campbell's interim head coach. And, you know, that was a big part of Terrell coming here last offseason. And Campbell told us not only do I think he's the best defensive line coach in football, he's also a coach that fits what we're all about. So he's looking for the combination of things.

But it's going to be hard to find, you know, unless you want to go internal. and keep things the way they are. If you're going to bring an outside voice, it's got to be someone I think he has familiarity with, a guy that's a culture guy. You're kind of looking for all the right cues there. So that's going to be the big challenge for him and the soft season. The Trell Williams thing I wanted to bring up because I think that kind of brings us all the way back around to the Dan Campbell part of this. When you are a head coach in the mold of a Dan Campbell, how you build your staff, how you maintain your staff, how you turn over your staff is a huge part of which I have success.

And if you look back at the last three years, I think that a lot of people are just going to think about, Ben Johnson and Aaron Glenn. Those guys are at the center of this. And that's an indication of Dan Campbell's ability to scout coaching talent. Well, Ben Johnson wasn't the offensive coordinator when Dan Campbell got the job. And I think the self-awareness to know we need a change here. We need to tweak this. I think that speaks to Dan Campbell's feel for this. And then you look at the defensive side of the ball. And I don't think a lot of people on a national level really talked about this. And I throw myself into that bucket because I didn't really notice it until deeper into the year. them moving on from their old defensive line coach and bringing in Terrell Williams, them bringing into Shea Townsend as their DB's coach last offseason. The defense was better, more cohesive this year than it ever was in the past. And I have to assume that some of that coaching staff turnover led to that. So based on everything we know and how the last three seasons have gone, if anybody deserves the benefit of the doubt for his ability to know what his staff should look like and how to build it,

I think it's probably Dan Campbell. Yeah, I mean, that's a great way to put it. Think about when he first put together that 21 staff. You know, Aaron Glenn was a Debe's coach. He was not a defensive coordinator. He was inexperienced, as was Dan. So, like, that was maybe a bit of a risk bringing a guy like that. But we see, I think he saw the potential in Aaron Glenn back then.

And obviously, now he's running his own franchise. I've got like, you know, Ben Johnson. Obviously, he knew Ben back from their time in Miami. And Ben was already on staff with Matt Patricia. But he's like, no, yeah, I'll retain you. Of course, I'm going to keep you on board. When Ben first got to lines, he was an offensive quality control coach, and he worked his way up and became a self-made man.

And when Campbell did have to move on from Anthony Lynn and demote him, the second half of that season, he took over plays and he asked Ben Johnson to help him. And he said, you're the guy I want helping me run the ship before he eventually made him OC the next year. So, and as you mentioned, he's fired coaches. He's not renewed contracts. You know, Aubrey Pleasant was a big loss. You know, he was considered a rising star that 2022 season, fired him midway halfway through.

didn't like how the D.Bs were being coached and made that decision. And so not only does he have an eye for talent and an eye for finding young guys that are on the rise, but he can also pull the plug when he kind of senses things aren't working. And that's a hard thing to do because a lot of coaches want to stay with the guys that were with him from day one. But Campbell certainly knows the right buttons to push. And I do think he's kind of earned the benefit of the job at this point. When you look at guys that are good at this, and I think I would throw McVeigh in there as well, just guys who are very, very good at maintaining pruning a staff.

he's shown a willingness to do the same thing. Like sometimes that's what's in the best interest of your football team. And that at the core of this, I think, is what has been so impressive about Dan Campbell at every step of the way here. I think he has a very good handle on what is best for his football team. And now there is a new set of challenges in answering that question. But I think that I would bet on him to figure it out in ways that maybe other people cannot. And I think the offensive input thing is an important thing to mention before we get out of here. If you bring in somebody like Tanner-Angstrander, you promote him.

being somebody that has had experience calling plays and having real input in the offense and the way that Dan Campbell can, that's part of this too. Like, it's not just a sink or swim thing for a first year OC that is either with a true CEO type coach or a defensive-minded head coach. Dan is an offensive coach who I think can at least help this process for somebody who has never done it before. No doubt. And he did say he plans to be more hands-on because I think when they, he mentioned going

back to Anthony Lynn, you know, I think that office is in the first year that they were together, he was so concerned with the draft and working with Brad and building the roster out that he kind of let his coordinators do his thing and maybe wasn't as hands-on as he probably should have been in terms of crafting the offense initially. So with the chance to kind of restart and start fresh, I imagine he'll be a little bit more hands-on. He's not going to, you know, hover over their shoulders, but he wants his fingerprints on this thing, man. Whether it's offense, and even on defense, he said, I want this to be a man-coverage team. We want to keep our same philosophies in place. And he's going to be more involved on that side of the ball, too.

Really, this is Dan Campbell's chance to prove that he wasn't just propped it up by his coordinators because there are a lot of people saying that. He's a guy that has that eye for talent, and I think he'll find the right guys to kind of keep it moving. And that's going to be his biggest challenge for sure. And that's what this is. The sky is not falling. This isn't over. This is just what happens when you become a team that starts to win a lot of football games. And the margin for error and the needle that you have to thread, those are changing.

And that is the state that the Lions are in right now. we'll see what happens. We'll see if they can make it happen and kind of sustain it in ways that really good organizations have been able to over time. Colton Ponzi, sincerely appreciate the time, sir. Always great to chat with you. We will do it again very soon. Absolutely. Yeah, thanks to having me on that. All right. Thank you so much to Zach. Thank you so much to Colton. Really appreciate their time. Appreciate you guys listening. This will be out probably on Wednesday evening into Thursday morning. The next show coming to your feet is going to be our conference championship game preview,

which will be me and Derek hitting both of those games. in depth on Friday morning. So please be on the lookout for that. For now, that's all we got. Sincerely appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon.