The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Abdul Carter, Mason Graham, and a loaded defensive line draft class

Episode Date: April 10, 2025

Dane Brugler has been telling us for months that this is a good draft to need defensive players. That's exemplified by a defensive line class that features 28 players inside the top 100 of The Beast. Dane and Fran Duffy from the ALLCITY Network join Robert Mays on this episode of The Athletic Football Show to break down the DL class in the 2025 NFL Draft.RundownAbdul CarterMason GrahamMykel WilliamsJalon WalkerWalter NolenDerrick HarmonShemar StewartMike GreenJames Pearce Jr.Kenneth GrantLandon JacksonGet The Beast: https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/the-beast/2025/Host: Robert MaysCo-Host: Derrik KlassenWith: Dane Brugler and Fran DuffyExecutive Producer: Michael BellerProducer: Michael BellerSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeFollow Robert on Bluesky: @robertmays.bsky.socialFollow Derrik on Bluesky: @qbklass.bsky.socialFollow Dane on Bluesky: @danebrugler.bsky.socialFollow Fran on Bluesky: @fduffy.bsky.socialFollow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow Derrik on X: @QBKlassFollow Dane on X: @dpbruglerFollow Fran on X: @FDuffyNFLTheme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert May's really fun show for you guys today. Fran Duffy from PHLY is here to talk about this year's group of defensive tackle and edge prospects. He and Dane, who also hopped on, which Dane's got a million things going on right now. It's Beast Day. So appreciate Dane spending an hour with us as well. They had some different opinions on some of these guys in this group. Shamar Stewart, Mike Green.

So we had some thoughts across the board about a lot of these guys who may go in the first round. talked about those players where we got a little bit of a split between these two guys, talked about some of the consensus first rounders in this group, Abdul Carter, Michael Williams, guys like Derek Harmon, who's already one of my favorites here so far in the process, talked about probably about a dozen players that may go on day one or early day two along the edge and on the interior defensive line. So let's get to that conversation right now. I've been looking forward to this one.

I think some people over the years have been a little bit critical about, We have a lack of disagreement on this show. We're all a little bit too nice to each other. I'm not sure that's going to be a problem today. We are digging into the edge rushers and defensive linemen in this class. And I have two guys with, I would say, disparate opinions about a lot of the bigger name players among those groups. Two guys who have a real steadfast respect and admiration for one another. And that's why I think this is going to be good because it's going to be rooted in some healthy disagreement.

Here to help me dig in to those pools of players. first of all, it is the Beast himself on Beast Day. It's Dan Bruegler. Dan, how you feeling, buddy? I'm feeling good. I, you know, whenever we hit Send on Let the Beast be released, my phone blows up. And it's just, I hope the ratio is like 95 to 5 positive to negative. And some years, it's been like 50-50.

Like pissed off agents, you know, parents that I've talked to before. But thankfully today, it's been 95-5. where it's been mostly from scouts and from agents from a lot of people it's been mostly positive. So I can take a sigh of relief at that. If you have not dug into the beast, please do so. There's a new digital version this year. It looks fantastic. You can access all of it on the athletic site.

If you are one of those people who loves a physical copy, physical media, as I tend to do in my escalating age, you can also get the PDF if that's your preference. but please go check out the Beast if you have not. This will be running on Thursday morning, and it is available for all to see right now. Also joining us today, very happy to get him into our draft conversations here from a PHLY and the All-City Network.

It's our friend Fran Duffy. Fran, how you doing, bud? Robert, Dan, appreciate you guys having me on. What an honor to be on here with, with Dane on Beast Day. You know, just so much credit to him. And, you know, I sent him a text. He sent out a tweet, but like,

just not enough credit. All the praise that he gets is not enough considering all the work that goes in this year round. I appreciate it. We're going to break up these players into a few different categories today. We're going to talk about the guys at the top of the draft that you guys consensus believe are like the blue chip players along the defensive wine. We're going to talk about some guys that both of you have rated somewhere near or in

the first round. I think that there's alignment in how you see a handful of these guys at those two spots. And then there's going to be a group of players that we dig into near the end before we hit a couple quick hitting rapid fire questions. Fran after Dane has to drop off because he has 10 million media obligations over the next week or so. But there's going to be four or five players where you guys are very far apart in how you have them in your rankings. So please stick around for those. Do not just hang out for the top line guys that we're going to talk about at the beginning of the show. But that is where we're going to start.

Let's kick this off, Dane, with Abdul Carter, who is your second overall player, your edge one. Fran, he is your first overall player, your top rated edge rusher. My big question about it is, Abdul Carter isn't about the nitty gritty of what he is as a player, etc. I think we all know that the consensus is that he might be the best player in the entire draft. My question for people maybe that aren't as deep into this day and is, what caliber a player are we really getting here? Like when he gets to the NFL, what makes him the number one player in the draft for you? And what do you think the ceiling looks like for somebody like Abdul Carter?

Yeah. And so he was going back to August, he was my number two player in my first top 50 that I ever did. Midseason, number two player. My top final top 100, number two players. So consistently, he has been kind of at the top of this draft class for me. And there was a little bit of projection going into the year because he was an offball player, his first two years. And it's funny, one of the reasons he went to Penn State is James Franklin kind of sold him and his family on the idea of him being a Micah Parsons type of guy. And so there was a somewhat reluctance for him to make that move to being a strict pass rusher.

But when you see the different ways they use him and get creative, there's no reason. Like, I mean, I think he's only going to be confined by a defensive coordinator's lack of creativity. You know, and I think that we're past the idea of, all right, just line them up,

same position, wide, every single play. Like, let's get creative with them. Let's let them stand up over the A gap. Let's, you know,

let them go head up on some reps, wide nine on others. Like, let's, let's be creative with how, how we want to align him because he is such a dynamic athlete that he will affect the game in different ways. And so I was encouraged by the way that he got better and better throughout the year in terms

of some of the polish of being a pass rusher. You saw him, you know, he'll introduce a ghost rip. And then, okay, then this is the long arm. And he will do different things that I think really showed his growth, like a player that's not out there just being an athlete. He is growing as a pass rusher. and then he's an excellent run defender too. So I think if you can be like,

I don't think he's Miles Garrett necessarily. Like I don't think Miles Garrett was a true number one overall elite type of guy. I don't think he's quite that, but he's on that next tier, whatever it is, probably the same type of grade that I gave like a Chase Young when he was coming out of Ohio State. And you were very high on Chase Young coming out of Ohio State. I mean, what's happened since we can, you know, talk about.

But in the process, you thought that Chase Young was going to be a star. So UC Abdul Carter is like a multi-time. pro bowl sort of player, even in what is sort of a down class. Yes, I agree. I think him and Travis Hunter, that's the top tier in this draft. It's not any more than if you want to squint and say Cam Ward's in there or Ashen Gentis

in there, fine. But I think for the most part it's those two players. What do you see as the limitations, Fran, for how high we can go with Abdul Carter in terms of what sort of impact he can have in the league. Do you see any? Yeah, I mean, the big thing is kind of what Dana alluded to with the usage.

That's going to depend on which scheme and what coach he goes to. There were times, you know, early on in the year where I'm like, you're watching at Penn State and obviously it was his first year, you know, playing truly off the edge. But he was still used where, all right, we're going to move him and kind of cover up the center and the guards with a couple defensive tackles. And we're going to line him up inside, just let him run. Kind of what like Todd Bowles would do with Devin White a couple years ago.

And it's like, yeah, that's not always translatable. But the more I watched over the course of the season as the season went on, you know, Dane mentioned like the growth that he had. but they also just showed a little bit more trust in him and just letting him go and just win, right? And so, you know, to me, when I look at Abdul Carter, the size could be a limitation for some. We don't necessarily see all these guys that are as compact as he is that go on to NFL stardom. But to me to expect that he could be von Miller, I don't, I think that's within the range of outcomes, right? And when you're looking at his body type, I do think that that's something that could potentially happen with him down the road.

The traits are outstanding. I think it's a pretty easy evaluation from that standpoint. You're Cleveland at two, Dane. You don't want a quarterback. Do you take Abdul Carter or Travis Hunter? You are making this pick. This is you. You're betting the next 10 years on the guy that you're about to draft.

Which one do you land on? It would be Travis Hunter. I think Travis Hunter is the best player in the draft. But if I'm the Giants, I feel pretty good about my consolation prize being Abdul Carter. And not to switch it, but for the Giants, think of that, they don't really have a true need at pass rusher when you think about what they did with, you know, what they did with drafting Kavana Thibon, Tibodeau, and then what they did last year with Brian Burns,

they don't really have a true need there, but you don't pass on a player like this. And so even though their giants are another team that needs a quarterback, but yeah, if I'm the Browns, I need help on offense and I need help on defense. Travis Hunter does that. But Abdul Carter is at least right there in the conversation for me. And friend, I assume that just based on your rankings, you're taking Abdul Carter in that spot if you're the Bruns. Yeah, I think so.

And when you look at Andrew Berry's background too, he has been pretty, adamant. We're going to build this inside out, line of scrimmage. And I feel like that would be the pick, but we'll see in a couple weeks. Let's get to our next one here. Mason Graham is somebody you both also have in the top 10. Dan, here's your fourth overall player, the defensive tackle for Michigan, your number one interior defensive lineman. Fran, he is your seventh overall player and your number one defensive lineman. Dan, when you, Fran, I'll start with you because I think this is a good framing. And is my understanding of what Mason Graham is as a player, I think, is well articulated in your write-up of him and your draft guide.

So this is an impact player who can make plays a number of ways for a good defense. I don't know if he'll ever be one of the true elites at the position, but he's a really, really good player and an impact starter. Do you feel like that's kind of where we are with Mason Graham and what has been sort of a muddled group after Abdul Carter and Travis Hunter, where you could probably talk yourself into a lot of different players as the fourth or fifth best guy in this class? Even if Graham has a limited ceiling, you're still willing to kind of put him up near the top just because you think you know what you're getting if you drop him into your defense.

Yeah, I can think back to text chains with me and Dane over the course of the fall. We're just talking about a lot of the top players in this class. And it's like, you know, like, I really like Mason Graham. But would I rather have him or Jalen Carter coming out of Georgia? Would I rather have him or Quinn and Williams coming out of Alabama? Would I rather, you know, you start having those kind of comparisons. And I just don't think he's that tier of prospect. He's still a damn good player.

Right. And so to me, when I look at Mason Graham, the loan issue is, the lack of length. He's not the body. He's kind of an unassuming body type for that dominant defensive tackle. Looking back through my notes on, who are the guys that have that same squatty build?

How many of those guys hit? I look at Javon Hargrave, Ed Oliver, Milton Williams, Kobe Turner, Braden Fiske, collagicancy. Like that's the guys that are, had the short arms that way, but still were able to find success. And a lot of the same markers

from an analytic standpoint in terms of like pass rush win rate, pressure rate, production on a per snap basis, A lot of those same markers, a lot of those same, you know, pitfalls, I think that you were still able to see there with Mason Graham. He was able to hit a lot of those marks. That name, that group of names is interesting. Because outside of Ed Oliver, all of those guys are players drafted in the back half of the first round or later.

And, Dane, when I think about Mason Graham, even if the production is good, we have some physical questions in terms of what his frame looks like. And Ed Oliver was like a 10 out of 10 RAS athlete. He had a 163 10-yard split. We don't have those numbers. on Mason Graham. So you're talking about a guy who has some physical limitations with the frame is a good player, but we're not even exactly sure on an objective basis what sort of athlete he is. So there are a lot of questions here for a guy that could be drafted in the top five,

even if you like him as a player and you like the floor that he's bringing to the table. Yeah, it really is a trust the tape type of guy. And that's, it really speaks to this draft class where you have the guys at the top, like we mentioned with Travis Hunter, Abdul Carter, to me, It's that's the tier. And then there's a drop off. And, you know, you want to, we can put Ash and Genty in that top tier. But that next tier, it's just not every draft has 10 players that should go top 10. That's just not.

And that's how this draft class is. I love the depth of this class. I think there's a lot of NFL starters in this class. But relatively speaking to past years, this really isn't a great year to be picking five to 12 to 15 type of range. Because those guys are good, but maybe not necessarily the same. type of level of player you expect to get with a six overall pick or seventh overall pick. And, you know, Mason Graham is exactly that. But, you know, I keep going back to watching Michigan, not this past year, the year before,

when they won the national championship, they had double-digit players drafted. But watching that defense, all I could watch was Mason Graham. And he wasn't even draft eligible, but I couldn't take my eyes off him because he was so disruptive against a run, against a pass. This year, you saw it. I mean, you watched Ohio State. state game, watch the USC tape. I mean, he was disruptive this year as well. And yeah, I mean, this is a really deep defensive tackle class. I have, I think, 16 that could go in the top

three rounds and only one of them has 32 inch arms. And that's Mason Graham. And to your point about the no testing, I checked in with his agent last week before we kind of put the beast to bed. And I said, hey, just want to make sure he's not doing any testing, right? He said, no, that's correct. He's not going to do any testing, no private workout, not going to do a 40 at a private workout, anything like that. So it's just a data point that is missing. And something that I know it annoys teams, as much as it annoys us on the outside, it is what it is. And it takes a little bit of leap of faith to only trust what the tape says, which isn't the worst thing. You know, the tape should be 85% of the evaluation anyways.

But it is a missing data point that you wish you had. I had the same experience trying to watch Kenneth Grant over the last couple days and just getting very distracted by Mason Graham consistently as I was trying to dig into Kevin the Grant. When you're thinking about like the Jags at 5, Fran, and the conversation that's potentially happening in that building. And you have all these guys that we're about to talk about that in theory have higher upside along the defensive line, either at edge or a tackle. Or you have a guy in Mason Graham that you think, I kind of know what he is for better or for worse. And I'm kind of willing to bet on that over the uncertain. with some of these other guys. How do you weigh that if you're a team like the Jags?

Where I want a guy that I think is going to be a solid, productive player, even if I can admit the ceiling's probably a little bit lower versus one of these unknowns where the upside may be a little bit more tantalizing, but the risk is much more significant than it is with a guy like Mason Graham. Yeah, when you talk with, and you know this from having these conversations with GMs and with front office people, it's like when you first get to a situation, there is that back and forth, there is that tug of war there mentally, where it's okay, would we rather keep this one in the fairway and just get the ball rolling here on the rebuild?

Or do we want to swing for the fences? We're picking up in the top five. Let's get a guy that has that type of game-changing type of upside. I think when you're looking at Mason Graham, to me, look, if this organization had their druthers, you know, something tells me like James Gladstone, Liam Cohen, they'd rather this be a pick on the offensive side of the football. Unfortunately, with the nature of this class, I don't know that that would necessarily make the most sense, unless they were to shock us and go with like an Ashton Gentie at five. You're talking about the front office that tried to trade up for Brock Bowers rather than take their medicine with a defensive player in the first round last year?

Exactly right. That type of situation. So I do think that, look, if they had their druthers, they would like that. It is also, though, like it's not lost on me that they stood pad and they actually traded up in the second round, took a short-armed defensive tackle in Fisk and he was one of the finalists for defensive rookie of the year, right? And so, and that's one of the comps that I mentioned there with Mason Graham. That is the cop, right? Like, that is, if you have to come up with a comp, Fisk, maybe it's just recency.

but I think that one makes the most sense. I hated myself for doing it. I did it in real time last night where I was like, who does he remind me of? And Brayton Fisk was the first name. And I was like, that's disappointing. I want better out of myself.

But that probably is the best place to land. Yeah. And you guys know this. This is one of those, like one of the things that gets lost this time of year, though, and people are when you're doing the front offices, scouts,

everybody's in the building. They're having these draft meetings and making their, there are different cases for who they should take or how they should have a guy on a board, who are the people in the room that have the heaviest voices or that have the most intel on players? You know, last year, Trent Balke brought in Tom Gamble from the University of Michigan. It was the defensive, he was the director of player personnel, rather, with the Wolverines under Jim Harbaugh. And he's still, from my understanding, like, still there with the Jacksonville Jaguar.

So they get some pretty good intel there on those Michigan players and on Mason Graham. Well, SpyTech, he's a Michigan man, right? Michigan man as well, exactly right. Tom Brady, also Michigan guy. If Mason Graham makes it to six, that's something I can. could see them, a direction that could see them going. So yeah, funny how that works. It's actually a good thought. I had really made that connection before, but you know, you have Christian Wilkins, but those other interior defensive line spots, you know, mostly been filled with guys that around these kind of rotating one-year contracts. You're Adam

Butler's Jenkins, players like that. So that necessarily, I wouldn't necessarily be surprising given the current state of the roster. Guys, just a quick reminder. If you're watching on YouTube, please like, subscribe, comment. Really appreciate it. As we go through this, I'm sure there are going to be a lot of intense personal feelings with some of the things that are said about these prospects. I want to hear from you guys on what you think and which side of the line you guys land on here with some of these conversations. So please let us know. Let's talk about the other guys that you guys both have kind of comfortably in the first round. You can think there are first round potential picks and you guys kind of are in alignment and how you see them. First guy is Michael

Williams from Georgia. Dane, he is your 21st overall player, kind of a first second round grade on him. Fran, he is your 21st overall player as well. So you guys are right in line on how you guys see him. What about his profile, Dan, kind of has him firmly in that first round range for you? Yeah, well,

I think going back to when he was a freshman, you know, watched the Ohio State tape in the playoffs that year, and here's this guy going up against Paris Johnson and making plays, this 18-year-old. And you're like, all right,

this is someone to watch for the future. And then last year was a little bit better, 2023, and then this past season, 2024, or he was battling an ankle the entire year. He missed, I think, just two games, but parts of others, high left ankle sprain.

You could tell he wasn't playing at 100%. And so you have to factor that into the evaluation, which isn't always easy. And I don't think he's a guy that has a consistent plan all the time. But when you see him when he's at his best, which I think the Texas tape was really him at his best, the way he uses his length and the way he can weaponize his length, he will jar blockers off the spot.

maybe not an elite athlete, but an above average athlete for a guy that's, you know, that size, almost 270 pounds. And he has some flexibility. He has some looseness to the way he plays. And so I think you just think about the package of skills, the body type that it comes in, and you think, all right, maybe this isn't a guy I'm ready to say

will be a pro bowler, but you can see very easily a path to him becoming a starter and becoming a really quality type of player within your defense. And so if I'm a playoff team in the 20s, that's definitely a guy that I could use. If I'm sitting at the Ravens in the late 20s or, you know, there's several teams there that I think could use Mikel Williams, develop him. He's still 20 years old. He is literally one of the youngest players in this draft.

So I think there's some projection involved. And then, again, understanding that he was dealing with an injury all last season and how that impacts the stats and the tape that it's kind of a qualifier. But it's context going into his evaluation. It's very important context. I was texting with Fran earlier today, and we were talking about him. And whenever I don't like a guy, the voice in my head is always J.K. Simmons from Whiplash, I'm like, not my tempo. Mikel Williams, not my tempo.

I was watching and I just, when you have a guy, the length is so obvious. I mean, his arms are really long. He measured at 34 and 3 eighths at the combine. We can obviously take that with a block of salt this year's combine. There's a chance he's closer to like 35. And you feel that length when you watch him. He's a really long player. And he has good lateral.

explosiveness, like he'll jump into a gap. Like he moves laterally in an explosive way for a big man. But Fran, my issue when I was watching him is like, I just wanted more violence. Like a guy with that sort of frame, I just wanted him to play with a little bit more violence. And then you're like, well, he was at 60 or 70% throughout the entire season. Maybe that explains a little bit of the gap. And it's like, oh, all right, that does make a little bit more sense that that's kind of the added necessary context for the guy that we're watching. So how do you square that potentially you saw over the first couple years, Fran, with what might have been a somewhat down season

when you kind of wanted to see him put it all together. I'll be honest, though. For me, when I studied him over the summer, I did not see a guy that I was like super comfortable with as a top 10, 15 pig. Like, there was a lot of things where I was like, I want him, I want to see him get better. I didn't think that he always used that length to his advantage as a sophomore.

I didn't think that this was a guy that had like a fully fleshed out pass rush plan. And I still think that's still a work in progress. But watching him this year, even though, like, knowing, like, he was limited, he was dealing with the ankle. He got a lot better in some key areas. I thought he got a lot better in terms of softening the corner. Dane referenced that Texas game.

He had that sack and crunch time against Kelvin Banks Jr. where he showed off that Euro step, was able to clear the corner. I thought the overall rush plan just took a big step forward this past season with that ankle and how often they rotated them. You know, you're dealing with that small sample. But this was a guy that, in a scheme, by the way, where, you know, you said this about Trayvon Walker, Nolan Smith, Jalen Carter, Jordan Davis, like all those Georgia guys, they didn't produce at big numbers.

Their win rates, their pressure rates, like just never looked overall impressive. And I think that when you're looking at Mikel Williams, 20 years old, still managed four and a half sacks in each of his three years on campus, found ways to be able to get to the quarterback. I do think he used his length better and more consistently here this season. Not a perfect player. I think there's some yellow flags in the profile, but just a guy that I'm willing to bet on because of the tools. And in this class, I'm willing to bet on that high.

You feel the length against the run more than you do as a pass rusher. Like he's very good at standing up offensive tackle, setting the edge that way. Lance's come for him, Lance Airlines, Dane, was Greg Rousseau. And that screams to me. Like when I watched him, that's the type of player I thought that I was watching. They have almost the exact same arm length, even though I think Rousseau is a little bit taller. And you see that sort of potential development plan for a guy like Williams, where maybe you're never going to be a 12-sac guy, but you can be an 8-10-sac guy.

and be a really good run defender. And like Rousseau, it's not just the length. He is sort of a knifing, explosive athlete in some of these moments. And so you can see some splash plays against the run, not just a big, long guy who can stand up tackles. And so that's sort of a path for him where he can be a really good two on a good defense. I think that's pretty clear if you lay out a Greg Rousseau type of development plan for him. Yeah, and that's why we're talking about him in the 20s in a relatively weaker draft.

You know, and I would agree. Like even going back to my initial top 50 in August, he was 14. So and some of that potential is already baked into that ranking. So it's like, okay, I liked him. But yeah, I want to see you do it on the field. I want to see you have this breakout year where you're going to lead the team of pressures. You're going to have close to double digit sacks. And even though he didn't have that, he was still all SEC, 2023 and 2024.

Like the coaches that he went up against him still saw enough that they're voting him all SEC type of player because he does find way to impact the game, even if it still leaves you wanting just a little bit more. So yeah, I agree with you. You're going to draft him not to be your 1A ace pass rusher, but he's going to be part of your mix, part of, you know, and then guy's going to get better and better. So by the time we're talking about, all right, we're going to give him that fifth year option, you know, I think you're feeling pretty good about that. And so it's maybe not going to be for everybody if you're looking for that immediate, you know, someone that's going to, from day one, going to come in and give you that immediate production you want.

But I'm thinking about a team like the Ravens or, you know, some of these other teams that can develop him, bring him along at his own pace. It's going to make more sense. Is there a team that you've been thinking about in connection with him, Fran, as you've gone through the process here with Michael Williams? A team like the Chicago Bears playing for Dennis Allen where they like those long pocket players. As I looked at arm length historically over the last 20 years last night, Don't think that wasn't on my mind where you have all of these guys drafted by the Saints

in the last decade right there with Michael Williams when you look at the measurements. Yeah, that is one that definitely stood out to me. I do think Atlanta, good. That would be one that would make some sense. Obviously, everyone's mocking pass rusher to them. But there are a bunch of teams, honestly, in that part of the draft where I said,

like, he's not falling out of the top 16, 17, 18 picks. I just think there's too many people in that range that would be willing to take on that back. Yeah, Arizona, 16. I mean, they took Darius Robinson last year. so it's a little same, but they like those types of guys. And, you know, just keep adding those types of players to the defensive line. And it's not a bad strategy.

Josh Sweat, also somebody who's very low. And so you're adding a lot of long, levered guys if you add a guy like Mikel Williams to the mix. Let's get to our next one here, Jalen Walker from Georgia. We could have put him in either of these categories. We could have put him in the defined first rounders. We could have put him in the bucket where you guys are a little bit far apart on Jalen Walker. Dane, you have aggressively ranked Jalen Walker. throughout the process. He is your fifth overall player. You have him firmly as a top 10 prospect

among this group. There are some questions with him when it comes to usage. What is he? Is he a tweener in a good way? Is he a tweener in a bad way? What kind of prompted this confidence and enthusiasm in your mind about Jalen Walker compared to some of the other edge players that we're talking about here? Yeah, and I do this, I did this with Nolan Smith when he was coming out of Georgia. I had him ranked as like, you know, my 12th overall player. He didn't go that high. Do you hear this tone, Fran? By the light, you hear this tone post-N-Smiths season here.

There's a little self-satisfaction going on. Mid-season form. As son Redick, I did the same thing. Like, I don't know. I'm willing to bet on, and we'll talk about, like, when we talk about Shmar Stewart, same thing. I'm willing to bet on pass rush upside. And I think with Jalen Walker, the uniqueness of how he was used. He was an off-ball linebacker for Kirby Smart in that defense.

much more so than an edge rusher. And they would use him as a spy. They'd drop him in space. And they would occasionally let him rush the passer. But in my opinion, clearly what he did best was rushing the passer. And so I know he's not like the size that maybe you ideally want in an edge rusher. And he's 6.1, 245.

And his arms are just shy of 33. But they, he plays much longer than that in my opinion. Like I don't know. It's the way he's able to use that. forward lean in the blockers, he can discard those guys very quickly. And, you know, it's a be a different thing setting an edge against NFL type blockers consistently. But I think he has it in him to do it. But I, the acceleration he has to the to the ball, the ability to close space in an instant,

I'm going to bet on that. And, you know, again, I think part of it is this draft class. Again, like we talked about it. there's after you get past the first four or five guys, it's kind of like, all right, well, there's no one really deserving of the fifth pick in the draft, the sixth pick in the draft, but somebody has to go there.

And I lean more towards the athletes and the guys that I have seen him do it. Chris Ballard said this to me a long time ago, I never forgot it. If you've seen him do it once, it means you can do it much more than that and just have to coach it out of them. And, you know, I think he does have a really promising feat.

for working downhill and being a really diverse pass rusher and chess piece in that front seven. It's just you have to have a good plan for him. And there's absolutely risk involved with a player like this because it's projection based. But again, I'm willing to bet on the athlete and bet on he's one of the best football character guys as well. His dad was defensive coordinator at Coastal Carolina for a lot of years. like he grew up in that type of, you know, his dad being a coach, defensive coach, and like he learned it from a young age. So there's a lot there that I point to and say, all right,

I am willing to bet on this. And not every, not going to be for every team. But if my team, if I need a pass rusher and my defensive coordinator is comfortable with the way we can use him, yeah, I think he's worth a top 10 pick. You buying that? You buying what Dan's trying to solve about Joe and Walker here, Fran? I've probably watched. more tape on Jalen Walker than anybody else in this class.

Dane and I have talked about him offline for months, so he's heard all of what I'm about to say before. You know, it started like two games early in the fall. It was like early October. He's starting to get that buzz because he wasn't a starter before this coming into the year. So I didn't study him in the summer. You know, it's like, all right, I'm going to watch him as an offball backer.

I didn't know what he was when I'm starting to watch. I watched those two games. I didn't think he was an ideal athlete for that off ball spot for a guy that go that high in the draft. I certainly didn't see a guy that read things out well enough to over. come that. I liked the position flexibility, but was he a special athlete off the edge? Like, I personally just didn't see it in those first couple games. I didn't see a guy that was going to consistently stress tackles off the snap with his getoff. I didn't see a guy win at the top of

the rush consistently. And if he's down on the ball, now he's an undersized edge rusher who I thought would struggle holding up on an every down basis in the run game. Was he physical? Was he competitive maniac? Like, all that was true. I didn't even know about the character stuff at that point. But to me, like, I just struggled with what he was. So talking with people over the course of over the father like look just just watch him through the lens that he's an edge guy right so after the senior ball i get back and it's like all right let me i'm gonna make sure i watch him before the combine i watched every single snap where he's just on the defensive line and i'm gonna be honest like i still struggled i didn't see like an overwhelming athlete like he can close late when he's you know he's

in the backfield he can close on quarterbacks uh and he can get there in the backfield but at that size like if we're making the comparison of hasan reddick or micah parsons right reddick ran 451 at 237 pounds he went just about seven flat in the three cone 135 three inch in the broad jump. Those are good numbers for an off-ball linebacker, much less an edge rusher. Parsons was 436 at 246 pounds. Weight adjusted agilities and the jumps were crazy again

for an off-ball guy, much less for an edge rusher. We talked about Abdul Carter making the comparison of Von Miller. Like you could see that on film. Walker, like, he pulled the Jerry Seinfeld. He's like, I choose not to run. I'm like, yeah, I get it. I get why you didn't do that.

Off the edge. I just don't see a guy that I'm like, oh, I feel great about his ability to be. that mismatch piece. Where are the pressures? So I go back and I watch all the pressures. It was a lot of schemed up stuff. The best stuff of him for me,

when he was winning one-on-one when he was lined up as a spinner or as a joker, like standing up inside versus guards. Yeah, he had a handful of, yep, as a spy as well. And I just, I don't think I can get on board with taking a guy high based off that alone. He's got to be more than that as a rusher. So that's why I ended up moving him to my off-ball group,

just because like even though he's not an ideal athlete there, I think that's where he's probably a little bit more useful. like if you were playing like a chief style defense like could he be leo chanel if you're like dennis stanes-alynes stile style defense could he be a derrick barnes de mario davis type uh gelani to vi anpharney jennings with the raiders and you're the uh the patriot style defense like i think that's the bucket we're talking about personally and you can't take that guy in the top 10 no no if that's what you think he is you can't take that guy in the top 10 and i think that the people who like him and are trying to pump up what he can be you're going to try to make that micha parsons comparison

where it's like, oh, Mike has short arms. Mike is not that big. And look at what he is. He's one of the best players in the entire league. But I think the way that you put it for him, I think is right. Micah is a special all-time sort of athlete. And if that's not what we're talking about here, then I think you get a little bit afraid of that tweener in a bad way sort of stuff.

And Dane, these sorts of players worry me, these offball guys who we can kind of convince ourselves that they have this pass rush juice, maybe that's the best way to use him. Michael Parsons fulfilled that potential in a way that I can't remember a player doing it since I started in this business looking at the NFL draft. But betting on that sort of path for more guys who don't necessarily fit it as cleanly, I think there's some real downside risk in trying to do that. There's risk involved, no doubt about it. And if I were to grade him and rank him strictly as an offball linebacker, he would be much further down my list. Because I don't really love him as a coverage player or a guy that's going to, you know, they throw on the

the old mist tape and they would attack him at times in coverage. And so I want him working downhill consistently. Yes, I agree with most of what was said because there is, this is a projection, a pure projection because of the way he was used at Georgia. And look, we've talked about it with multiple Georgia players with, you know, Trouin Walker. And we just kind of mentioned it a little bit with Mikkel Williams and just the way the snap counts, the way they were used. But look, when Jalen Walker was allowed to rush, he had a high rush percentage. And, you you see it, you feel it on the tape. When he is allowed to rush the quarterback,

maybe it's not as polished as you want for a pick you're going to take in the top 10. But I saw enough juice there that, all right, he might not be Michael Parsons, but I see enough there where he can do it. He can win with speed. He can win with quickness. Like I said,

I think he plays longer than he measured. That's what it shows on tape. So I'm, you know, again, man, we're just missing a lot of those guys. He graded out as a top 10 type of player for me. We're going to take a quick break and then we're going to get back with a couple more guys that

both Fran and Dane have in their first rounds. All right, before we get going again, just another quick reminder. If you're watching on YouTube, please like, subscribe, do all that great stuff. Would very much appreciate it. I would love to hear your guys' thoughts on the players that we're talking about here. So please get involved. It would mean a lot to us. Let's keep rolling here with some interior defensive linemen.

You guys both have ranked pretty high. and I think both feel pretty good about. First one is Walter Nolan from Old Miss Dane. You have him as your 31st overall player. He is your fourth defensive tackle friend. You have him as your 18th overall player. Going back through and reading about him, Dane, I wasn't surprised to see that he was a big time recruit.

Because when you watch him play, the frame, the explosiveness. I can't remember. I think it was, I think it was the Arkansas game, was the first game I watched of his. And I want to say the first drive of the Arkansas game, He just goes like Chris Jones Godzilla mode on the right guard and just walks him back into the quarterback. And I'm sitting there, I'm like, holy shit. I don't think I was ready for this.

And then those moments didn't come quite as often as I wanted them to. And so the flashes are definitely there. When you were watching Walter Nolan, how are you trying to square what is very clearly a ton of potential for somebody who was a really talented guy with maybe not that down-to-down consistency that you might expect from somebody with his physical profile? Yeah, and another guy who didn't test. He did the short shuttle at his pro day, and that was it. And so it's like, okay, we don't have a 40, one of a 10, we don't have a three conover. So it's, you know, there's question marks there.

And question marks for a player who already had question marks. You know, he talking to people, because he started at Texas A&M for two years before he transferred Ole Miss. and talking to some people at A&M, they didn't have the kindest things to say about him. And it may be some of that sour grapes for him leaving, you know, who knows for sure. but and it was kinder talking to people at Old Miss, but there still wasn't, you know, overwhelming in their praise for him. And you just, you see the talent, but is it going to show consistently? Is he going to work consistently?

Those are the question marks with him because, yeah, you see the explosive first step. You see a guy that can work laterally, work across a blocker's face. There's twitchiness in the way he moves, both with his legs, with his feet and with his hands. You see disruptive potential. it's just, okay, what am I getting consistently with this player? And so to me, he's the type of player that, you know, falls to the Eagles in the first round and ends up being a really good player. But I think the question marks are why he wasn't higher for me, even though the talent says

he should be higher. But again, you know, he averaged 2.7 pressures per game. And like, I don't know. With his talent, that number should be higher. That number should be almost double that when you're talking down and down out. because if you grade to the flashes, if you grade based off his top 20 highlights this year, you're probably taking him top 10. You might have him higher than Mason Graham, but you just don't see it consistently.

You know, a TFL against Florida, that was like that exact type of play where it's just like, oh my God. Like that guy is one of the best players in the entire draft, and those moments just don't show up that often. And Fran, what I find interesting about Nolan is, we've talked about some of these defensive linemen that don't have a ton of pass rush production. Some of it is usage. You mentioned Michael Williams. Some of these guys are in a four-eye more often than you want them to be where it drives down production.

With Nolan, I think that that defense at Old Miss, it's the opposite situation where he's one gap in all the time. He's kind of allowed to let loose in a way like Derek Harmon isn't, and there still isn't overwhelming production. And so I think there are a lot of reasons to think he might be more productive than he has been, but you're still fairly optimistic about him. What about what you saw from Walter Nolan makes you feel good about what he might be as a pro? Yeah, I'm going to be honest. Like when I looked at the production from my side, I didn't have like huge issues with the over. I mean, all the win rate stuff, the pressure rates, they were all above average numbers last year.

The win rate on every down was 11.3% on third down. It jumped up to nearly 18%. Pressure rate was just over 12% on third down. Like those are all like above average numbers comparing that to defensive tackles drafted in the last decade. I think for me, like I have a something I call it, I have a production score that I just keep from my own personal notes. And basically what it does is just takes tackle. TFLs, sacks, hits, and hurries. It's all weighted.

Like, sack weighs more than a tackle does. But on a per snap basis and it spits out a number. To me, like, I looked at that number, and that's a 90th percentile for all defensive tackles drafted in the last decade. And when I look at who are the other guys in that group of the day one and day two players, guys, here's the list. Levi-Onsurrique, Brayden Fisk, Dexter Lawrence, Vita Vea, Jaylon Carter, Jeffrey Simmons, Kalaja Kansi, Chris Wormley.

So you got one back up there. Kobe Turner, Christian Barmore, Jonathan Allen, Quinn Williams. I'm like, all right, that's pretty good freaking company. That's pretty good. I feel good about that. He graded out well in the run game. He was productive in the run game.

A lot of run stops in terms of like unsuccessful runs for the offense. So like the volume, you know, I guess like wasn't there. But then I look at the overall like per snap production, I felt good about the analytic profile. The film was good. The flashes. Like as soon as I watch him in the fall, so yeah, like for a class that is starving for top 20 talent, this guy looks like a top 20 talent in any draft.

So it's interesting that he is not consistently talked about that way. Dane mentioned, like, you know, Texas A&M didn't really, like, speak super highly of him walking out the door. I think that was consistent with a lot of guys that walked out of the door down at a college station this past year. So Walter Nolan is going to be someone that, for me, is definitely one of, like, quote, unquote, my guys that I feel a little bit stronger about going into this process. That's not necessarily surprising with the production, but I guess that's kind of what I met is that defense kind of asked for production out of somebody like him in the way that he's used. When I watched him, Dane, I didn't think he was a very sturdy player. Like, I just feel like when you compare him to some of the other defensive tackles, like the guy we're about to talk about in Derek Carmen,

I just don't feel like he held up quite as well against the run. I mean, I feel like there are just elements of his game where the flashes are very tantalizing, but I'm not sure if I really appreciate or like the bedrock of, like, who he is as a player down to down. I think that's where I think you see that both in the run game and as a pass rusher, where as a pass rusher, he's really active, but you wish there was just, more like more of a compass to what he was doing as opposed to. I think that's a great way to frame it. It's a really good way to put it.

Because he is an active player. You like the motor. You like the play activity. But you just wish there was more cohesion to the way what he was doing out there. So it's not wasted motion. It's because obviously making that jump up to the NFL level, it's going to be a little bit harder when, you know, the blockers you're facing. And so being having a little more direction to what you're doing.

And then also in the run game where you want to see him stay square. to that line of scrimmage when you're working up and down the line of scrimmage. And that's something that he didn't do consistently. So there's no way around. I mean, character and, okay, is he going to live up to this potential? That is a part of the evaluation that I struggled with. And, you know, just talking with teams about it, talking with, you know, people in the league about how they viewed Nolan.

Like, I think he'll go higher. Like he was, what, 31st on my top 100. I think he goes higher than that. I think he will go somewhere in the top, probably top 24. but I think that's the teams are just split on should he or shouldn't he plenty of teams wouldn't touch him in the top 25 but there will be at least a few that are kind of looking at it the way you are Fran and saying listen we'll take our chances because of X, Y and Z and because he could do this and that and so again like I mentioned

with like Jalen Walker you've shown it to me once I know you can do it more it's just it's up to our coaches to get it out of you I was about to make the joke Franz Betten on his coaching staff He has a lot of faith in that coaching staff with the guy like Walter Nolan. Yeah, I feel like, you know, the teams like San Francisco with Chris Casaric, you know, you look at, you know, there are teams like that where it's like, yeah,

I don't need you to be like super refined. Just get off the damn ball. And I feel like with Walter Nolan, you're going to get that. I think there are a lot of teams picking in that, like, 13 through 20 range. And you can throw San Francisco in there too, so let's just say 10 through 20

that need defensive line help. And I wouldn't be certain. And a lot of those teams that do, they could use an edge rusher or an interior player. A lot of those teams need they need a pass rushing force no matter where it's coming from.

And I actually think you could make a really solid argument that as we go through the line with Nolan and with a guy like Derek Harmon, I think part of me would rather bet on those guys than these high upside edge guys. Even if maybe they're never going to be 10-sack all pro players,

I think I feel better about this group of guys than I do about the edge group specifically. And that brings me to Harmon. Fran, I texted you this morning, I was very upset with your initial ranking of Derek Hartman from Oregon because when I watched him, he's been my favorite player that I've watched. He was much further down your board initially. On your most recent big board, you put him at 22.

What caused him to rise a little bit in your opinion as you watched more of him? Yeah, it was a sample size kind of deal. You know, when I first watched him, the first two games, it was early October, starting to get buzzed that are. This is a guy that we're going to be talking about in this class. So I watched the first two Power 5 games or Power 4 games on Oregon's schedule was Oregon State and UCLA. You know, and I saw like a solid athlete, but I was still like, I wanted a little, I wanted

a little bit more there in terms of a pass rusher. And honestly, like going back and just watching the full season's worth of games, watching another game or two fully and then watching all the pressures, it's like, yeah, like this guy's got it, you know, seeing him live in the combine, even like watching him go through the bag drills in Indy. It was like, yeah, I'm too low on this guy. He's a player I'm going to be cycling back through. And he will definitely be a little bit higher once I, you know,

get back through that film. So Harmon, you're looking at a guy that's just, you mentioned like the word sturdy, very sturdily built, strong, he's got power for a guy that's, you know, he came in at the Combine 313, but he's played bigger than that earlier in his career. And that's, that is a big part of the profile. And honestly, that gives me a little bit of pause is that this was a guy, you know, quote unquote, one year wonder was a lot heavier at Michigan State transfers, cuts a lot of weight and then ends up having the big year for the Oregon Ducks. But can win a lot of different ways, good run defender, a scheme versatile. I compared him to Travis Jones when I did him in October. I think he could Travis Jones was a second round pick. I think he's probably a better

version of that. But I think when you're looking at Harmon, that's he's got he's a versatile skill set for sure. You've always been high on him through the process, Dan. He's been in your top 15, 16 players essentially since Halloween. You've never really backed off of that. What about Harmon drew you to him as you watched him throughout the process here? I mean, just early in the season, going back to September, watching him against Boise State, watching him again, some of those early games. It's just, okay, consistently he is flashing, getting off the ball, and really creating havoc in the backfield.

And the missed tackles were maddening watching him play. But you know what? He was forcing the quarterback to move his feet. Or he was disrupting what the offense was trying to do with the backfield action. So, you know, it's all right, all right, we'll give him a pass for that because he's at least getting there. And, you know, I think through the process, it was like, all right, there's nothing that tells me he can't do this because he has, he had the production. He had the most interior pressures of any interior defensive linemen this year in the FBS. He tested really well, had a four nine, 40 yard dash.

He slimmed down a little bit. That's kind of been one of the questions. It's just, all right, your body type. And he lost some weight when he got to Oregon. Oregon gave a good chunk of change NIL to go there from Michigan State. and I think he really took a more professional approach, lost some weight, was in better shape. And I love how, I mean, you could,

you mentioned scheme diverse, Fran, one technique to five technique. He could play anywhere you want in there, anywhere. He reminded me a lot of like, maybe like a first round version of like a Keanu Benton, like a guy that, you know, you see him, he can anchor versus the run, but he's also disruptive through gaps.

So the test, he just kind of checked every box for me. Yeah, he's definitely one of my favorite players in this draft. I love him. And I think that that scheme diversity and the ability to play a bunch of different positions, it's my favorite part about him is he's going to make your defensive line and your linebackers better. By dropping him into your defense, I think everybody gets better. He's physical as a penetrator on stunts.

He can close as a looper on stunts. I thought one of your notes in the B-Stain was phenomenal. You talked about how he's not great at reading blocks. And think that's true. He doesn't have great awareness of where stuff is coming from. but his reaction and his ability to kind of anchor, the way that he feels blocks as they're happening is phenomenal. Like he gets skinny against double teams,

he anchors against double teams. I thought he was a better run defender that Kenneth Grant, who weighs 20 more pounds than him because Grant plays with some of a narrow base at times where when he gets double team from the side, you can get movement on him. Derek Harmon's not moving. He's not moving.

He's putting that knee down. You are not moving him. And when you combine that with all the pass rush productivity. I don't know if he'll ever be a all pro type of player, but I think your defense will be better if you draft a guy like this. And again, talking about some of those teams in the middle of the first round where you can take these high upside ideas at edge rusher or you can take a guy like this who I think makes you better immediately. I think this is the bet that I would rather make in that range of the draft. I think about like the Bengals, like a 17, like I don't know. I don't

think he should get past 17, 18, like in that range. He's that type of player. All right, let's get to the good stuff here. Let's talk about the guys that you guys are a little bit split on. Two guys we're going to talk about at the top of this before Dan's got to jump off. Let's just do the Shamar Stewart thing now. Okay.

Dane has him at nine in his rankings. Shamar Stewart, the edge from Texas A&M. Fran has him at 61 in his rankings. And that's higher than he was. He was legs lower than that on a previous. list. I was really hoping he'd still be down in the 80s when we were doing this. I'm just going to do, I'm going to be like a lawyer in a courtroom here. Dane, opening arguments for why Shemar Stewart is a top 10 player in this class for you.

Because teams draft traits, not production. And he has the traits. And even the production, I think, is misleading. Yeah, one and a half sacks last year. He led A&M in pressures last year. So he was getting there. It's just, okay, he needs to be a better backfield finisher. And then also the way he was used. I mean, the amount of snaps where he's lined up as a four-eye or, you know, he's asked to contain. He wasn't, like, he wasn't asked to consistently pin his ears back and go on a consistent basis. But then, okay, so you like the traits, you like the flashes. And watching him at the Senior Bowl during Senior Bowl practice, I've never seen a 270-pound guy have that type of burst off the ball like I did 10 feet away, watching him from the sideline during Senior Bowl practices.

and then he follows it up with, okay, at the combine, you know, he's able to, I think it was 267 pounds at the combine, so a little bit lighter, but he was still able to have a 40-inch vert. He had a 45940, 158, 10. I mean, that's like Von Miller numbers. And he's doing it at a much bigger size. So even though the production, the sack production wasn't there, I think he did enough on film that tells me, and he's a very young player, third year junior,

there's enough there that tells me there's more, to him than just what that one and a half sack says. And so is he a perfect player by no means? But again, we're talking about a relatively weaker draft class. And if I'm going to bet on a guy, I'm going to bet on the traits and the tools and the upside that I think he flashed more than a few times. I think you'd be willing to beat Dane's bookie in that situation, friend. I think you'd take the other side of that bet. Why are you not bought in on Shamar Stewart despite all of those kind of tantal?

mentalizing physical traits that Dane is talking about. All right, let me take a deep breath. We're going to get through this together. Look, four and a half sacks in his career. Only three players drafted in the last decade had fewer than that. All three of those guys were day three picks. It's not just sack production. You look at the PFF has the number of the run stop where it's just an unsuccessful running play.

If it's third and two, you make a tackle for one yard. That's a that's a run stop. He had 21 on 575 run defense snaps in his career. That's a rate of 3.7 percent of all. edge rusher's draft in the last decade, he's 203 out of 204 with that run stop rate. So we're talking like just a lack of production

across the board. I mentioned that production score earlier with Walter Nolan. He would be in the single digit percentile Shemar Stewart in that over the last decade, you know, based off my numbers, only three of those 21 guys down there at the bottom of that list were guys that went in the first two days of the draft. Peyton Turner, Chad

Thomas, and Dio Dengbo. And Dengbo actually is a pretty decent comp when you're looking at the measurables there and some of the production metrics. But why? Why is he struggled to have this lack of production? And to me, it came down to two things watching him on film. He's not good at the top of the rush, and he's incredibly stiff. So when I look at the top of the rush, I mentioned like the past rush win rate stuff. He was single-digit percentile. This is stuff I went through all the film first, then go back and look at these numbers. If you're under 12.5 percent in your final season,

that's a really poor number. That's really like in a single-digit percentile. That's where he is. And when you look at the 21 guys that were that low in their final season of college ball among the 200 plus drafted in the last decade, when I look at that list, who are the guys that hit? It was Trayvon Walker, Josh Sweat, Charles Omenahue, DJ Wanham, and Dorrance Armstrong. All of them had over 34-inch arms. Four out of the five were in the 90th percentile and wingspan. Stewart checks those boxes, right?

So you have the length, feel good about that. But then you get to the stiffness, man. And on film, that was my big hang-up, was that he was just so tight, really, segmented mover, almost like, this is extreme, but you kind of get where I'm going here, like the edge rusher version of like a Taylor Mays, where he is extremely explosive and wound up straight line, but side to side movement was a big concern for me. And when we talk about like RAS and how rare of an athlete he is, we don't have shuttle times. He had the injury at the combine, did nothing at the pro day, and that doesn't count against

him in the RAS. To me, that's one of the flaws in that formula. It doesn't necessarily show that. When you go back to the list, that list of like the Trayvon Walker, Josh Sweatlin, the guys that didn't have the high win rates, how did they do in the shuttle times? Trayvon Walker, 90th percentile weight adjusted three cone, 80th percentile weight adjusted short shuttle. Josh Sweat, 80th percentile weight adjust.

DJ Wan and Doran's Armstrong, all those guys were slightly above average. To me, like that tightness, that shows up when he's also trying to finish tackles and his miss tackle rate, 27 percent over his entire career. Only two edge rushers drafted in the last decade had a worse rate than that. So when I'm looking at all this stuff, there's just so much, I color code everything in my notes, there's so much red in the profile with Shamar's story. I just like, I can't get used to. And the other big thing, you know, I heard Chris Sims was making this argument for him on this pod, on his podcast this week was like, oh, the usage, right? Oh, there's so many guys where,

you know, he's playing as a snug player, a four eye technique. He's not often asked, well, look, 72% of his snaps in his career were outside the tackle. That's a below average number, but like Trayvon Walker was 53%. Charles O'Manehu, 31%. You know, we're talking like other guys that produce at a high level. Like, Trey Hendrickson's numbers, you mentioned that, Robert, was it like a couple weeks ago having this conversation? Trey Hendrickson was 61%. So he was producing big numbers,

and he was outside the tackle even less than what we're talking about with Shemar Stewart. Michael Williams in this class, 54%. His role's not that unique. He's still playing the same sport in college football. It's just a tough pill for me to swallow when I'm looking at Shemar Stewart. And even those snaps where he is a edge player

in a true pass rush situation, there still isn't the type of production that you want to see when you're one. watching him on tape. I think the biggest gap with you guys, I think, Dane, you see more flexibility in his game than Fran does. And I think that creates a path to you where he can unlock some of those physical gifts in a way that Fran doesn't believe he can. Do you think that's fair? Yes. I mean, I saw him. I can point to several examples where he was able to turn the corner and flatten. And again, seeing him up close and personal at the Senior Bowl kind of really sold me

because he was able to, it's not, it wasn't just that burst. He was able to, uh, he was able to, uh, when he was a capture the corner and flattened i saw it more than a few times so i don't know i do you wish you saw it more consistently on film no doubt about it absolutely but again seeing him do it a few times it's like all right i think i know he can do it i wish he did have those we did have the three cone times and a shuttle times unfortunately we don't but i think that he has better flexibility than what fran saw and so i think and i think there's more too that even though the alignment snaps are what they are, again, being asked to pin his ears back and be able to rush. I don't think he was given those opportunities as much, even when he was aligned outside.

So I think that factors in as well. Fran's betting on the coaching staff with Walter Nolan. Dane's betting on his coaching staff with Shemar Stewart. I want to hear from you guys, which side of this are you taking? Let us know below if you guys are watching on YouTube. One more here, Dane, very quickly before you get out. You have Mike Green from Marshall as your 10th overall player. Fran has him at 59.

Let's do a truncated version of this. Why do you think that Mike Green is a top 10 player in this class? Yeah, I mean, he's one of my favorite players. And I think that we won't even touch the off-field stuff. Just talking about the tape. Like, he's got athletic twitch. He plays with violence. He played the Sunbelt.

And so a lot of his production came against that level of competition. But you watch him on the Ohio State tape. You watch him at the Senior Bowl. And he's still making plays. So I see the guy that's linearly explosive, but also laterally explosive. And not only did he lead the FBS in Sacks this year, he led all FBS defensive linemen in tackles, which really speaks to the motor and the way that he will make plays chasing up and down the line of scrimmage. Do I wish you were a little bit bigger, longer, of course.

But I don't, there were a few examples where he would be out leveraged at times on the edge. But it wasn't, it didn't happen enough to really give me cause for concern going up against the tackles at the next level. I thought he was strong enough against the run that I feel, I feel comfortable with him. So yeah, and I, maybe I should have had him ahead of Shamar Stewart. I think just depends on,

I think the team. Like if I'm in a position where I want more of the, I feel like I know what I'm getting, then I would go Mike Green. If I'm in a position where I'm going to go with more upside, I would go with Shamar Stewart. But I think they're both in that top half of round one for me. What keeps him down a little bit further for you,

Fran? What aren't you seeing that you maybe Dane is with Mike Green? Yeah, for me, you know, I questioned the overall, like, athletic upside, like the explosiveness at that size. You know, he is more of a compact rusher. You know, we talked about that with some of these other guys as well. I want to, I don't think he's one of those, like, really true top. He had that outstanding three cone, but no jumps, no 40-yard dash. I think that from an explosiveness standpoint, I just wasn't blown away there. He also just doesn't have really a power element to his game. I know we saw like there was that clip from the senior bowl. He's extremely violent on contact. Like, I love. I love the style that he plays with and I love the violence.

I just, to me, like, I didn't see, like, a true naturally powerful rusher. I do think he's got a solid rush plan. Explain the difference with that. What do you is the difference between a violent rusher and a purely powerful rusher? Yeah, for me, you know, the way, a strength coach I talked with about this a few years ago, really kind of crystallized it for me is you're talking about, like, the difference between strength and power. You can look at it as, like, water, right?

So if you have an iceberg, is extremely strong, tough to move off at its size. spot whereas a power is like a waterfall or rapids where it is moving and it's going to move everything else out of its way. And so when I look at, when I look at Mike Green, he is a guy that I don't think that, and this is often equivalent to the broad jump, 10 yards split, like explosiveness with strength equals power, like with mass equals power. It's force mass acceleration kind of thing. I think when you see Mike Green, he doesn't quite have that juice. He doesn't quite have that build where he's going to consistently move guys off a spot. He caught John got Josh Connerly in a bad way at the senior wall.

It's one of the most violent one-on-one reps I've ever seen in Mobile. I'm sure Dane can attest to that. But I think when you're looking at him, I just didn't quite always see that power element. Now, he's got a nice ability to counter his outside rushes with like a nice inside spin. Like he can keep tackles honest. But I just, to me, it was like the overall upside and the off field also.

It's a concern that every team is going to have to do their work on. All right, Dan, we're going to let you go here. Sincerely appreciate it. You got a lot of stuff to do. We're going to let you go do your important national TV media availability here. Not worry about my little rinky thing podcast. We'll talk to you later this week. Thanks, guys.

See you, for him. We're going to take one more quick break, and then we're going to get back and talk about a couple other guys that maybe Fran is a little bit lower on the consensus. All right. We're going to run through three more guys here, Fran. Two, that you're maybe a little bit lower on than the consensus rankings and Dane's rankings would say, and then one guy that you're a little bit higher on. First guy is James Pierce from Tennessee.

Dane has him at 36th overall in his, in his, final big board. You have him at 71st overall. Why are you maybe a little bit lower on Pierce than the consensus? Yeah, I think when you're looking at Pierce, I mean, tall, lean frame, he's built like a basketball player, springs attached to his ankles, really explosive, flexible, you know, saw that on tape, saw it at the combine. The run game, like, not terrible, but I would say that you're like just getting by. I would say below average at best, run defender, missed tackles, will lose contain. But when you're looking at it was purely as a pass rusher, like, I was talking to somebody, Scott last week. He said that he is an analytics person's dream. Like the production is insane on a

per snap basis. 30 TFLs, 19 and a half sacks, 75 hurries. He did that in under a thousand snaps. The pass rush win rate stuff, the pressure rates, all insane. And typically when you're looking at the guys that have the high pressure rate, he actually has the third highest pressure rate of any edge rush are drafted in the last decade in their final year on campus. And you're talking like, the guys at the top there, Trey Hendrickson, super high, you know, the bosses, T.J. Watt. We're the reasons we loved Laotu Latu last year, high pressure rate, right? Well, other guys that are up there with him, like Josh Uche was second on that list, James Houston was fourth in that list, Tim Williams, sixth on that list, and all those guys were like pure speed, high side only

rushers. And that's kind of how I view Pierce, man. I just think I worry that he's a high side only rusher, did not nearly see enough to keep tackles honest and work that low side. I mentioned that with Mike Green. I see more of that with Green than I do with Pierce. I just feel like he's more of a true designated pass rush. sure. So high side, you mean bending the corner rather than working straight through guys or inside counters. And this is funny. Piers specifically, this is my growth in how I've watched the game and how I like players. I used to love these guys. I used to love these speed-based bendy edge guys. And as I've just thought more about overall impact on the game and a term that Nate used to use all the time that I think is a

really good way of conceiving of how defensive linemen are affecting the game is the edginess you create in the pocket. How uncomfortable are you making the offensive tackle you're playing against and then how disruptive are you to the integrity of the pocket to make the quarterback uncomfortable that you're playing against? And I think for me, one of the light bulb moments over the last couple of years is just watching the way that Jared Verst played in college and just being like, this guy would be such a miserable player to half the game plan for every single week.

If you were the tackle or the quarterback, you'd be thinking about him every single play because of how he can play through you. And those are guys I maybe wouldn't have loved 10 years ago. And I think I've really come to appreciate. Pierce is the opposite. Where are these bendy guys who can't play with that sort of power and can't, again, disrupt the integrity of the pocket itself rather than winning the corner, I think that I've become increasingly lower on those guys over time.

and he very much seems to fit that bill. Yeah, there might be a season where he has 11 sacks, 12 sacks, right? We've seen that from these rushers. One of the guys I wrote down while watching him, like Vic Beasley, you know, built that way. That's the first name I was going to say. He's that kind of guy. You know, Leonard Floyd, you know, Bryce Huff is a different build, but that kind of rusher where he's just going to kind of run around you.

But there's volatility there with that kind of rusher. And it comes to that to me, I don't know if you can always count on that on a year-to-year basis. Kenneth Grant is another guy, the defensive tackle from Michigan. in that you were relatively a little bit lower on. Dane has him at 25 on his final big board. You had Grant at 46 on your final big board. He's somebody that is a freaky athlete for his size, big, big man. And you see some of the flashes.

I mean, it reminds me a little bit. They're very different players. But when it comes to the experience of watching them, I kind of felt a little bit about watching Kenneth Grant the way that I did about Walter Nolan, where it's like, I like the flashes. I wish there were more of them. I think no one is a better pass rusher and the upside is much higher. and I think you can justify your ranking of a guy like that.

But I think Grant, in watching him, you see there are some moments where it's attractive. Like those flashes are attractive. They're just not happening quite as often as I'd want them to. And that's why I don't really know what to do with him. I think you could talk yourself into him having a fairly high ceiling. But I could also think you can talk yourself into him being maybe just the rotational run defender. And I kind of don't think he's as good of a run defender as he's been painted as

and that lowers his floor maybe a little bit more than I'd want with a player like this. That's kind of where I'm at is like, there's obviously, and the way I always approach these, you know, when I'm looking at players is like, all right, range of outcomes. Like there's a path where he turns into a pretty disruptive upfield, no shade, right? There is a path where that happens. There's also a path, like you mentioned, where he's just a solid player with flashes who's never really dominant.

And at this point, I just kind of feel better about that outcome. I don't think that I've seen enough or like talked with people enough to where that that would kind of swing me the other way. And so to me, like, where I have Grant, I had Harmon in that same bucket, you know, we'll say like a month ago, a couple of weeks ago, whereas now, like, you know, watching more of Harmon, like now, like, he's got more than this. With Grant, like, I just, I just have never felt that way, man. A one-year starter, we've been here about the traits for three years.

He tested well, but, like, not, like, you know, Jordan Davis, like, went out and put out a show of the Combine, right, in terms of, like, a similar kind of archetype of player. and I just, I haven't seen that with Grant. I watched them back to back. And again, I just felt like I was more comfortable with Harmon as a run defender than I was with Kenneth Grant. And it's like, well, if that's going to be the case, what would I like more about Grant? Because that's supposed to be the selling point. Again, talking about comps, I thought that Lance had two that I really liked.

One was what he did with Greg Rousseau and Michael Williams. he, T.J. Slayton, Teddural Slayton was his comp for Kenneth Grant. That's a very low comp, right? Like that's a low end outcome, but I can kind of see it because Slayton has those flashes where you think, all right, he's more than just a run defender. He's more than just a big body. But it doesn't come often enough. And I could see that on the low end range for a guy like Kenneth Grant. And that would be a little bit scary if you're taking somebody like that in the first round. No question. You know, I know our friend Ben Fennell, like he had thrown out a comp of Dantari Poe. who was, you know, he's a mid-first-round pick,

you know, when he came off the board back in 2012 and was a frustrating player and obviously, he didn't, never hit that ceiling. And I think that

there is a little bit of boom bust there with Grant. I've heard nothing but good things off the field. You know, one of the red flags for me, like he was a guy

that was on Bruce's, on Bruce Feldman's freak list, like before we ever played a down at Michigan. So we're always talking about all this guy's a freak, a great athlete, you know,

just our unique physical specimen. All right, well, how come this guy's like never a starter? Well, you know, they had good play. They had Chris Jenkins who was a second round pick. You have Mason Graham.

And I know some people on that coaching staff, guys that have been through that building as well. And they all say like, no, like good kid, work ethics all there. Like everything's there. But, you know, you probably just need to like light a fire there a little bit. And I think that that's probably what we're talking about with Grant. The comparison, again, last one with him and Harmon. And I think, again, it's my experience with them as color because I watch them back

to back. But I also think that's kind of instructive watching guys like this back to back that same position, same general range in the draft. I thought that you could move him with double teams and down blocks. He plays with a narrower base than somebody who weighs 3.30, again, less sturdy than I think you want him to be with this sort of profile. And so that's why there are just enough question marks with me compared to somebody like Derek Harmon who maybe doesn't have the flashes of some of these other defensive tackles,

but I think it's just a more consistent, useful player in more ways. Last guy I wanted to talk about here is somebody that you have a little bit higher in your rankings than the consensus ranks and even Dane, you have Landon Jackson from Arkansas higher than James Pierce. You have him higher than Shemar Stewart. You have him higher than a lot of different guys in this process.

What has kind of driven your affinity for Landon Jackson compared to some of the other edge rushers who might be available in that general range? Yeah, he's a tricky profile for sure. You know, the production has not always been there with him. You know, that said, we're talking about this guy had six and a half sacks that each of the last two.

years. So it's not like Shamar Stewart level of lack of production, but a guy with a, he never like overwhelmed you, right, from a number standpoint. This guy consistently plays extremely hard. He plays through contact really, really well. I think he's got strength and power to his game. I think he's a better straight line athlete than a lateral one. But honestly, like watching him work out in indie, like I gained an appreciation for a guy that's that high cut, he can bend the edge a little bit and he can turn the corner better than what I thought. He gets off the ball well. I think he's got a couple of moves in his bag that he was able to use at the top of the rush. You're not worried about the bag drill moment.

That is the senior the senior ball bag drill moment. You're not concerned about that? Not not concerned about that one. I was there. You guys can go watch the clip if you haven't seen it. He's going through a bag drone. It seems like it's the first time he's ever conceived of this being a thing. He did much better at the combine.

Yeah. And honestly, like, so there were a couple guys when I remember when I first watched him. You'll appreciate this because I know you like the throwback like a hall of very good players and this guy's not like hollow very good but uh jason jones was the name that that started it was a second around pick out of eastern michigan um yeah there was and he look lana jackson has the ability to get up to like 280 and have they have that hybrid skill set um as i watched more and as i like got up on a little bit more he's got some josh sweat type of qualities as well and sweat the big thing with sweat was he he was a big time recruit coming out of high school length explosiveness a lot

of the things we talked about with jackson but a lot of his production came when he was lined up wide. He wasn't asked to do that all the time at Florida State. Same thing with Landon Jackson. I think that he is best cast. Line him up with a runway, you know, and let him kind of crash off the edge. All the snug stuff, all the stuff tight to the line. Like, that's nice that he can do it. I just like him more with space and with a runway. And so I do think Jackson's probably like early second round pick. I just like the player. I feel really good about, you know, him sticking in the NFL. Fascinating group of pass rushers for those early 2010's Titan teams. you had Jason Babbin, Derek Morgan.

Again, just some throwback names. Jason Jones was not a name that I anticipated hearing on this show. Fran, we could do this all day. I sincerely appreciate you hopping on with us. We'll hopefully do it again at some point, either during the draft process or at some point this offseason. Please let everybody know where they can check out all of the great draft work that you guys are doing right now.

Yeah, I appreciate it. You know, with all city networks. So, you know, the easiest way you can go find me on social media, but the link back to all-PH-L-Y.com, and you can get our draft guide, but it's available, you know, for, you don't need to be an Eagles fan. We've got in Denver, in Chicago, it doesn't matter what team you're a fan of, but you go find the diehard draft guide, subscribe. We always have deals going on to become a diehard, and we've got, you know, 250 or so profiles written up, all notes, analytic notes. I was at the Senior Bowl, Shrine Bowl,

combine, you know, put all my notes and all those guys in there. So you can go and follow us there and check out all of my draft reports on all these players. When you suggested like a month ago that I wasn't a subscriber, I was pretty hurt. I was honestly a little bit insulted that you didn't think I wasn't already a diehard getting your guys's draft content. I certainly was. I certainly am. I've been checking it out throughout the entire spring. And you guys should as well.

Fran, always appreciate it, buddy. We'll talk to you soon. Appreciate it, man. We'll talk soon. All right, guys. That's all we got. Thank you to Fran. Thank you to Dane.

We will be back on Monday with our next mailbag with me and Derek. if you'll listen to this on Thursday morning, sending your questions. Athletic Football Show at gmail.com. If you're watching this on YouTube again, like, subscribe. Please keep checking out the channel or, you know, obviously putting more into YouTube. All the shows are going up there. It's a big help if you guys like, subscribe and comment on the video.

So if you guys could please do that, get involved. Let us know what you thought of the conversations. Please be as active as a part of this community as you want to be because it would go a long way for us. For now, that's all we got. Sincerely appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you. you very soon.