The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - AFC West roundtable with Vic Tafur, Nick Kosmider, Nate Taylor & Daniel Popper

Episode Date: May 27, 2022

The competition in the AFC West heated up this offseason with the additions of Russell Wilson, Davante Adams, Khalil Mack and more. Lindsay Jones takes you inside the division with The Athletic’s Vic Tafur to discuss the Raiders and their new offense under Josh McDaniels. Then, Broncos’ writer Nick Kosmider joins the show to talk about the tone in Denver with Wilson under center. Plus, Nate Taylor explains how the Chiefs look without Tyreek Hill and Daniel Popper talks about Justin Herbert and the Chargers’ revamped defense.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Lindsay Jones. Today is Friday, May 27th. We've got a fun show for you today. We're going to do what I'm kind of calling the AFC West Thunderdome. When Robert asked me if I wanted to host a show solo this week, I said I'm going to lean into what I know and love. And that is the AFC West.

It's the most interesting division in the NFL, the deepest division in the NFL. And it's going to be the most fun division in the NFL. So today we're going to talk to the experts, our beatwriters, who are covering each of those teams. We're going to get into the big storylines, the big questions we have about each of these teams at this point in the offseason. But first, I do want to acknowledge that we're recording this podcast on Wednesday afternoon. It's only been about 24 hours since the horrific and tragic mass shooting in Texas. And it does honestly just feel kind of wrong to be talking about football and laughing and talking about, you know, kind of, you know, kind of, you know, light things. I'm the parent of an elementary school child. Most of the guests that we're going to

have on the show today, they're parents of young children. And I'm sure a lot of you are parents. And we are all hurting right now. Our hearts are broken for those families and what they're going through. And so many families across this country, people in Buffalo are still enduring right now. But we're going to try to do it anyways, right? We're going to try to go ahead and talk about football. We're going to try to, you know, get into some of the fun stuff, talk about the players that we love to watch. But I just felt like it was really important to acknowledge the reality of what's going on in our country and kind of leave some space for the emotions that we're all feeling right now. So with all of that said, it's really heavy. But I do want to kind of get into the show.

And before we get into this conversation with all over AFC West Beatwriters, I want to talk about a little bit of the news that's been going on in the NFL this week. Because despite the fact it being May and the time that's supposed to be really quiet on the NFL calendar, there's actually. been a lot of news happening. So we're going to run through a couple of these news items real fast, and then we're going to, then we'll get to our beatwriters and get really heavy into the AFC West. So the first really big piece of news that happened right now is that the Steelers officially have a new general manager. They announced on Wednesday that they promoted Omar Khan to replace Kevin Colbert as their GM. The Steelers have been interviewing candidates for months. You know, Kevin Colbert announced several months ago that he was going to be retiring after the draft.

So they really started this process kind of early in the offseason, did a lot of interviews internally, externally. They did second rounds of interviews earlier this month and ultimately chose Omar Khan. He's been with the Steelers for 21 years. He's been their cap guy. He's the money guy. He's really well respected across the league. You know, it's a little bit of an out-of-the-box choice because most of the guys who are general managers in the NFL, they kind of come up as scouts and they really have kind of a heavy scouting background. that's not Cairn's background. He is their cap guy, the salary guru. But now, you know, the Steelers

aren't Rooney. They're really allowing Omar Khan to kind of build out the rest of his personnel staff. And, you know, kind of my takeaway from this hire was that it makes sense for the Steelers. I mean, when you think about the Pittsburgh Steelers, they are one of the most, they're probably the franchise that respects stability more than anybody else in the NFL. And, And keeping Omar Khan in that building running that personnel staff, it really is just a sign that they want to kind of keep doing things the way that they've been doing it. He's really respected. He's really good with their cap. A little bit of a tight salary cap situation for them this year. But they're going to have a lot of money to work with in coming years once they get some of the dead money off the books. So that's one big of kind of piece of NFL housekeeping that's out of the way. another bit of news, not fun news by any means, but earlier this week, Roger Goodell said that the NFL's investigation into Brown's quarterback Deshaun Watson is nearly complete. Watson has met with NFL investigators. We kind of knew all along that whenever their investigators did get to speak with Deshawn Watson, that that was going to be the last part of this. And now it's really going to be up to the joint disciplinary officer who's been appointed by the

in the NFL in the NFLPA to make her ruling. If there is some sort of suspension, there will be an appeal. That would be heard by Roger Goodell himself. Goodell hasn't really given us much of a specific timeline, but the fact that the investigation itself is at its final stages, if not completely complete, we should expect that some sort of decision should be coming in the not too distant future. I don't really think it's my place to speculate about what sort of punishment might be coming, but I do think it is important to remember that the NFL's personal conduct policy gives the league very broad latitude to issue discipline that's not reliant on whatever the judicial outcome was. They can punish players absent criminal charges, and that was really

kind of the basis of the policy that was rewritten in 2014. So I know the Browns are eager to find out what's going to happen. They just want some clarity about what's coming, what they're going to be facing this offseason. And I think just, I think all of us just want to have some sort of resolution to, at least the football side of this. Resolution to the civil cases doesn't seem to be coming anytime soon. There's no settlement talks going on at this point. So that's like a really big kind of step forward. And so at some point soon, we're going to have answers to one of the biggest offseason questions. Another bit of legal news that's happening in the NFL is John Gruden's lawsuit against the NFL

is going to proceed in court in Nevada. It's been a really messy offseason, right? That the John Gruden lawsuit is kind of like the 10th most interesting thing that's been happening. But it's about to get a lot more interesting because the NFL wanted this move to arbitration or they wanted it dismissed completely on Wednesday a judge in Nevada ruled in John Gruden's favor. So the lawsuit's going to proceed. It's going to be really interesting. see how the NFL is going to proceed here and if they push to settle because the NFL does not

want the type of scrutiny that's going to come with court proceedings. There's discovery, depositions, the airing of a lot of dirty laundry. And there is a lot of dirty laundry involved in this case and all of the emails and everything associated with the Washington investigation. And then for the football stuff this week, right? I mean, it's OTAs. It's the first week of real practices. We're seeing seven on sevens, 11 on 11 drills. A lot of the reporters around the league have been able to watch practices at this point, including I think most of the reporters that we're going to talk to in our AFC West discussion here in a few minutes. There have been some notable absences, though, obviously Kyler Murray in Arizona, Lamar Jackson and Baltimore,

Debo Samuel and San Francisco, Baker Mayfield and Cleveland, Terry McLaurin in Washington, Aaron Donald in L.A. Pretty much all of this is. contract-related. I think some of those situations are a little bit more manageable than others. Aaron Donald, for example, he's been in regular communication with the Rams. I'm not sure if anybody in L.A. is, you know, particularly panicked about Aaron Donald, you know, missing some practices in May. It's a much bigger deal when your quarterback isn't there, when Kyler Murray is not there, when Lamar Jackson isn't there. They both have really interesting contract situations going on, and we're going to be talking specifically about Kyler Murray and Lamar Jackson in an upcoming episode

of this show. Both of those guys are do new deals. They're going about it very differently. But we're at the point now in the offseason where we know what the rosters are. We're getting to see some actual football. No pads, not entirely full speed, but it looks a lot more like real football. So we can really now kind of get a sense of what some of these teams are going to look like, not just what their rosters are going to look like, but what their schemes are going to look like. And that's a lot of what I want to get into today with our AFC roundtable. So first up, let's talk to Vic Tate for. who's covering the Las Vegas Raiders. And now we're joined by Vic Tafer, one of our Raiders, writers, writers in Las Vegas.

Vic, thanks so much for joining us. Yeah, my pleasure. How are you doing? We are hanging in there. I just am really excited to talk about AFC West football. You and I have been covering this division for a very, very, very long time. I'm not going to tell anybody exactly how old we are. But I'm just glad the rest of the league has kind of come around now to realizing that the

AFC West is the most interesting, the most interesting division. It's the best division and it always has been, right? I mean, this year is no difference. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of awesome rivalries in the NFL, but there's just really something special about AFC West rivalries. And the news in this division never stops. Right as we started recording this on Wednesday afternoon, there's some more news about the Raiders.

And that's that Colin Kaepernick is going to work out for the Raiders. What's your initial thoughts on the Raiders kicking the tires on Colin Kaepernan? I guess you're a little surprised. I thought maybe that ship had stailed for Colin, but I think it's good news. I think definitely deserves as much a chance they can get. I'm not sure what that opportunity will be with the rateers if they actually isn't opening.

But, you know, if it does really well, I guess you never know. So, yeah, I guess pleasantly surprised is my reaction. Red me through the quarterback debt chart real quick behind Derek Carr. Well, they got the great Nick Mullins, they brought in. Then they also just traded for Jason Statham. It's Jason Statham? No, that's an actor. It is the actor.

What's the guy? Jared. Jared Statham. Jared. Yes, Jared Stedham from New England. The McDaniels translator. I don't know the guy's name, so I guess Kaepenix chances are better.

I wish it was Jason Statham. I really wish. I just watched the movie with him as well, Rath of Man. Not pretty good, by the way, but, uh, so yeah, so they got Statum. Stadham, Stadham. Stedham. So he's great, obviously. I know a lot about him.

He's fantastic. The Stidim move to me felt like we're bringing in a guy from New England who speaks Josh McDaniels language, who will be able to help in that quarterback room as they're doing offensive install. That was what that move kind of said to me. They gave two draft picks and they give a six and a seventh, which is not nothing. So to me, it maybe means that, you know, you give Nick Mullins some competition. If Nick Mullins can beat them out, they really, I guess he's deserving of it. But to me, those two guys, I think were pretty pretty set with those two guys. you never know. Well, knowing Mark Davis the way that you do, do you think this is a Mark

Davis influence decision to bring Colin Kaepernick in for a workout? No doubt. I think Mark definitely feels he's been kind of wrong. I think Mark's one of the owners has spoken out about him, kind of like he deserves a chance. Definitely they are not, whatever, 35 or whatever the number is, quarterback's in the NFL better than he is. I guess it's backup. So I guess it's 60 quarterbacks to 80 quarterbacks. So he's definitely one of those guys that should be in the league. So I think Mark's very outspoken about that. And I'm sure Mark had a lot to do with this decision to work them out. All right. So let's get into, you know, everything that's going on with the Raiders this off season. Obviously a ton of change. Josh McDaniels is in the trade for Devante Adams,

Chandler Jones, the Derek Carr contract extension. So when you're kind of, you know, looking at the Raiders roster where it's out right now and kind of the point we're in the offseason, what do you think is the biggest question facing the Raiders as they head into the on-field portion of this offseason? And maybe what are you? hoping to get answered between now and the end of the minicamp next month? I think the biggest question is the offensive line. I think you look at the offense, the moves they made, you mentioned Adams, and they got their ballerback on a run for.

So you got three receivers who are going to be open almost immediately in line on scrimmage. You got a good running back stable. So to me, there are cars there. It all comes down to the offensive line. They have enough there, and actually they cannot screw this up. I mean, they don't want to have any kind of, Colton Miller's kind of proven guy left tackle. But other than that, there's really four question marks.

They brought a lot of guys in, both draft picks and some phrasian guys. They brought back Brandon Parker for a lot more money than people thought he should have gotten. So it ended up pretty quiet about their intent. They really haven't said much about what they want to do with Alex Lutterwood either of their first round picked from last year. So a lot of question marks and really, I think the key in this whole offense kind of now it hinges on the O'Lines ability to be decent. And we're going to be getting into a lot of these, I think a lot of the teams in this division have similar questions because of, you know, offensive personnel changes. But what are you expecting the Josh McDaniels offense going to look like in Las Vegas and specifically with Derek Carr? What do you think Josh likes about Carr's game?

What are some elements that you think they want to keep things that Derek Carr does well? You know, what are you, I guess, expecting this offense to look like? Yeah, I think Josh has to be excited about your car is accurate. He definitely makes good quick throw. He's very decisive in his reads. I think that's something that Josh will like. He mentioned to have these three guys should be open. I would think immediately every time the ball is hikes.

So definitely do a lot with those guys there. They're running back. They're running a ball. I think they're running a ball in Newland and always ran the ball. They didn't really have any marquee guys. Now it would be kind of the case here. I'll be a committee for the raiders, but they're running the ball a lot and try to get that balance going.

So I think Josh had success. You know, throw those days into England. I think this offense, if the other line can definitely get to that level where they're solid, the offense should be really, really good. So when you look at Derek Carr and the extension that he got, What sort of message do you think the radars are sending about what they think of him, what they think is possible for him? And, you know, you've covered him a really long time.

You know, what are we maybe expecting out of him? It's interesting because I think the Adams trade changed everything. I think the new region came in. They talked about moving forward and being competitive, taking another step up. But they weren't really sure how it was going to look. But when they saw that chance to get Adams, and obviously has the connection with Derek from college and their best friends, I talked about playing together for years.

That was a game changer. I think definitely that I'm sure. I don't know if Derek took less money than they would have otherwise, but I think the contract talks definitely went smoother than they probably would have otherwise. There's definitely, I think it's a team-friendly deal. I think Derek could have probably gotten more money based on his resume, based on what else other quarterbacks have gotten. But I can see why he wants to prove he can win here.

And now he has a window. I think there's definitely a two-year window with him and Devonte to kind of show they could do this. And if not, then the Raiders can finally, I guess, move on and find a different quarterback. I know you were tweeting, I guess it was last, guessing it was last week when we put on our power rankings. And the Raiders were fourth among the AFC West teams, although I think they were all in the top 13 or so. Do you think we're, you know, maybe people are still sleeping on the Raiders? There's still a bit of that like chip of, you know, maybe underrating these guys at this point. Yeah, I think that's true.

like not only of fans in nationwide and national media, but also rated fans still are really not sure about Derek Carr. I think, you know, half love him, half don't like him, half don't think he's very good, half think he's great. I just think that this whole year kind of hinges on him and kind of taking the next step with Devonti. So I think people aren't sold on that, obviously. I think that like he didn't have the marquee name that Russell Wilson has or even Justin Herbert in a short time kind of a surpassed Derek amongst the people think about quarterback's in this league. So I think there's definitely some doubt there, but

I guess that offense, that receiving core with Waller is really, really, I think, special. So he's shown he can do well. Derek has. He has good receivers he can trust. So there's no reason why he can't have a big year and they can't do big things. So I want to look

at the defense real quick before we let you go. You know, I think the Chandler Jones signing was one of the more like kind of underrated moves the soft season. And I think that was just because there were so much happening at that point in March. But what does adding him to that front seven along with Max Crosby, what is that going to do for the Raiders Pass Rush, you think? It's funny because, you know, I thought in Giacway last year was really good.

I thought he did a lot for them in terms of leadership and the product got brought this to like, you know, an energy to the team. An edge, right? An edge, yeah. And I think John Jones, I guess, Brady, definitely, it's close, though, but I know he's definitely, he's, you know, Ziegler and Biggowns. He's our guy familiar. I know them well.

So I mean, all the time they have new regimes. You always think we're good guys. This is our guy, leader. We know him. And so they got him and they got rid of Engakwe. But so I think in Gakwe was really good last year. So for me to say that Jones comes in and makes a huge difference, it's not really fair to Engawe, but you know, based on the track record,

he's probably better. He's definitely better against the run. And he definitely can cover once in a Waffe has to. So I think definitely gives us this defense an element of a surprise. Maybe they can do more different things than you could within Gakway. So I think Patrick Graham's very good. excited about having him. Definitely, I think it'll be fun to watch how they use them along with Max and on the other side. And I'm obviously looking at everything through an AFC West lens and

when they signed him, I thought, this is a guy who sacked Russell Wilson like a lot of times. I mean, he's had multiple like three sack, four sack kind of games against Russell Wilson. So it was just another little added layer to me of kind of AFC West intrigue. Yeah, I think definitely if you weren't convinced with the admiral's that condition they were like going for it this year. At that one really is a lot, they really are trying to get guys on both sides of the ball. You know, be leaders and kind of impact players and kind of take this team to a different level than were last year. I mean, that's why Mark Davis didn't bring back Rich Passatchi because, you know, people think

they went to the playoffs and a good year overcame a lot of different issues. That kind of will be a reason to kind of bring everybody back and so let's do it again. But he wanted more. That wasn't good enough for Mark Davidson. He clearly, you know, replaced the staff. and now they're trying to take another step up. So I think Adams and Jones make that pretty possible. I'm going to ask all the guys this as we go through the show today.

But we know the schedule now. There's a ton of AFC West primetime games, although the Raiders only got four primetime games. It's just another way that the league office can, you know, poke at the Raiders a little bit here. It's a conspiracy. It always is, right? But is there a game on the schedule that you're just really excited,

like one of the AFC West matchups or NFC West matchups that you're just saying, all right, this is a game where we're going to learn a lot about who this Raiders team is. Well, the one that caught my eye was the Patriots game, just because of all the, you know, the battle check against his former pupil. Just this kind of show a lot about, to me, oh, McDaniels can kind of do it as the guy. So clearly all the A&C West matchups are really exciting. But to me, the Patriots game is a little different, it's kind of a special kind of, you'll be able to gauge right away,

kind of, you know, the teacher against his pupil where they're at this stage in their careers. Perfect. Well, Vic, thank you so much for joining us. You're working on anything fun. What should we be reading about the Raiders right now? I'm working on Channel Jones features. That should come out next week. Speaking of the devil. But yes, the next big thing coming up. That may, I'm going to Hawaii. I'm going to Hawaii. Maybe we'll be there at the same time. We'll coordinate offline for some meet up for some Maiitai. There you go. All right. Take your ones. Vic, thanks for joining us. Now I'm really excited to be joined by my friend Nick Cosminder from Denver. And Nick, Nick, we got to see other just a couple days ago in person. So it's good to see you again. In person, real life football

practice. That was something. Yeah. So the Broncos held their first open OTA on Monday. And you and I were two of, I don't know, 50 reporters. I mean, it was a large, large crowd. I'm sure larger than you've ever seen for Broncos practice. Yeah. And as I was to say, I, you know, I was kind of tangently around when when Peyton Manning was here. I worked at the, you know, at the post and kind of a desk roll. So I popped out there a couple times, but certainly since I've been on the beat, you know, this is nothing like anything that I've seen. You know, the Teddy Bridgewater, Drew Locke battles, the Mark Stanch, Paxton Lynch, Trevor Simeon battles. They did not conjure this sort of excitement or interest, I guess, among the local powers that be. So I'm sure

you saw that pretty regularly with Peyton, but certainly not since. Yeah, I mean, it was, it was large crowd for May for sure. I mean, it was everybody who, like, hosts or guest on a radio show, all of the TV stations. You know, there were a couple, a couple national folks. You know, I was there, James Palmer from NFL Network was there. You know, it was kind of the normal, a lot of the normal crew. But there is definitely a different vibe going around Dove Valley and the Broncos facility right now. And, you know, I thought there was one moment that really stuck out to me from that Monday practice. And look, we only get to watch one of every three of these days. So, I always want to be careful not to draw too many broad conclusions from what you see out of one day of OTA because they have different focuses.

Nathaniel Hackett was telling us that Monday was a red zone day and then they were going to work on some of their other situational stuff later in the week. But it was notable to me that it was a red zone day. And it was a good day for the offense. Russell Wilson threw a bunch of touchdowns. He scrambled for another touchdown. The offense was really feeling themselves. And there was one of the touchdowns that he threw in the red zone. and he kind of just got mobbed after.

You know, they were like jumping and yelling and cheering. One of the other reporters was kind of like, is this, like, looked at me and said, like, is this normal? Like, is something going on here? And I was like, look, this team has not scored touchdowns. They've been one of the worst teams in the red zone for a very long time. And they're going to celebrate, they're going to celebrate these little wins. And that's what you wrote about on Monday.

So let's kind of go back there and talk a little bit about what we think this offense is going to look like and maybe what we've learned at this point about kind of what this Russell Wilson Nathaniel Hackett scheme might ultimately end up being like. Yeah, I think that's a really good point. And yeah, we only want to draw our conclusions from OTAs on the on a two minute highlight videos the teams put out. That's where you're really supposed to draw your, you draw your snap. Yeah, exactly. Snap judgments there. But no, I think the thing that I found so interesting about Monday, was that if you wanted to show the difference that Russell Wilson was going to make and just how different of an element there was going to be for Denver on offense,

there was no better way to do it than to have him in these situations on the first day that the people could come out and watch because you're absolutely right. Over the last six seasons, and I was kind of stunned when I looked this up, even though we've seen how bad this offense has been, that only the Jets have been worse in the red zone over the last six years. And it would often show up in these OTA practices where you'd see something and you kind of try to convince yourself or talk yourself and, okay, well, maybe this is a reason they could be more efficient down here. But that's all it was, all it always was was trying to convince yourself of this. And to see Russell Wilson and the offense is scoring touchdowns every single time they're having a series in the red zone, be it starting at the 20, be it starting at the 5, the 10, wherever.

it was just sort of, I think, helped that reminder of like, oh, yeah, this is kind of what functional offense is when you score in practice, you know, when you have these advantages, you, you, you can't sack the quarterback. It can't sack the quarterback. Russell was doing a lot of his, like, patented Russell Wilson's spin move, that kind of stuff. And so we don't know what would have happened in live football. But you're exactly right. That it was like, oh, yeah, this is what, you know, like,

competency at quarterback play looks like. Yeah. And that's just, that was my biggest takeaway is like when you're, when you're kind of charting it, you know, maybe not to the point that you do when you're, you know, in training camp or there's an actual quarterback competition that you're trying to, you know, to report on, but still just kind of charting. And again, every series they're making plays. I just thought that that was a unique way to kind of start it. And, and be able to quickly see that, that element that is going to be different, no doubt,

for the Broncos. Well, and they're being, you know, they're being very careful at this point not to give too much away about like what type of offense they're going to run. But what have you learned so far about maybe what the central tenants of this offense are going to be? Sounds like they're going to be doing kind of an outside zone blocking scheme. But like what are some of the other maybe like fundamental elements that we should expect now that Russell Wilson and Nathaniel Hackett are in charge? Yeah, I think one thing that, that, you know, you've kind of come to notice, be it, whether in the little bit that we've watched both Monday and in the veteran mini camp that happened earlier this month or talking to, talking to players and coaches, I just think you're going to see them use receivers, be it wide receivers, tight ends, running backs, in a lot more different spots on the field. Like, don't be surprised if you're seeing, you know, the tight ends, like Albert Oak Wave, one or Greg Dolstich lined up out wide. Or if you see, you know, running backs all the way out wide or in the slot, I think, they're going to be very interchangeable in terms of how they try to use their different receivers,

regardless of position group. And that's going to be something of a change. And then you mentioned the zone blocking scheme is going to be different. I happen to think it's a lot better fit for the offensive line that Broncos do have. They have some guys who aren't necessarily these, you know, big giant mallers on the offensive line, but are quick. And a guy like Quinn Miners, I think, is a perfect fit for this. I think Senator Lloyd Cushingberry provided he wins that job again, is going to be better equipped to play in this scheme than the one he did under Pat Schumer. So those are, I think, the things early on that we're looking at. You mentioned, they, Russell Wilson was even asked that as you were there, like,

something about like, you know, what the offense is trying to accomplish. And so, well, you know, can't tell you. It's practice. So that part of it has been held close to the best. But I think just studying some of Wilson's past, some of Nathaniel Hackett's past, and then the little bit that we've seen, you can kind of come up with at least some clues as to how they're going to look on offense. So as we get a few more of these open OTAs

and then certainly into the open mini camp, the mandatory mini camp in the middle of next month, that I'm sure you'll be at all three days with that. What are the couple things that you're really looking for out of this offense? There are a couple players that have your eye on, young guys, veteran guys, fighting for jobs, you know, outside of just what does Russell Wilson look like? What are a couple of things you really want to see out of the Broncos office?

Yeah. I am curious to really see just, you know, kind of the health of some guys. as, right? KJ. Hamler, we know, is coming back from an ACL injury and a hip tear that he suffered early last season. Every indication is that he's on a really good track with his progress and should be ready near the start of the year, if not week one. And they need that. They need him. He took the top off the defense, all of last trading camp, the preseason. And it was really opening up a lot, even for Jerry Judy, just because of the way that KJ. Hamler was putting stress on the back end

of secondaries. And then without him, they really struggled. And I think he's going to be, he's going to be an important element of what they do offensively. So how healthy does he look? How quickly can Greg Dulcich, the third round rookie tight end? How quickly can he incorporate himself? Is Albert Okwebunam entering his third season and now healthy? Is he ready to kind of really take that tight end mantle from Noah Pham, who was obviously sent to Seattle as part of the Wilson deal?

Those are the big things. And then lastly, what is this offensive line going to look like? I think there's going to be more competition at some of these spots than we've seen in quite a long time. You know, we know Garrett Bowles is going to be the starting left tackle. You would think Dalton Reisner will keep a spot at left guard. But, you know, I think that virtually every other spot is up for grabs, be it center, right guard, and certainly right tackle. So those are the things I'll be really keeping my eye on offensively. And then defensively, again, how healthy does Bradley Chub look? How quickly can Randy Gregory, who had offseason's

shoulder surgery, the big free agent acquisition? How quickly can he incorporate himself? You know, what does the depth that corner look like? So those are some of the things that I think I'll be keeping an eye on. And you also wrote about the Broncos defensive line earlier this week. That group has changed a lot over the last year. Obviously, Von Miller is gone. Shelby Harris has gone. He was part of that Russell Wilson deal.

And the guys that we noticed a lot in that Monday OTA, or I guess open OTA, Draymont Jones and DJ Jones, the new edition from San Francisco. What are you expecting out of this offensive line and, or I mean, defensive line, excuse me. And what are the Broncos need out of that group if they want to be the type of defense, I think that they expect to be? Yeah. The thing that I kind of kept coming back to over this offseason was George Payton was really adamant that he didn't like the way that they played against the run in a lot of close games last year. I think the mind goes back to the week seven, Thursday night game against Cleveland, where they kind of scrap, they scrap and claw and they get

it to within 1714. There's five minutes to go. They, you know, they can't. kick the ball back, the Browns. All they need to do is get a stop and they can go down and try to win the game. And the Browns just run all over them. De Ernest Johnson, who was the third string running back because both. Yeah, this wasn't Nick Chubb. Yeah. Yeah, Nick Chub and Kareem Hunt were both out that night.

And here's Deerunis Johnson, a guy nobody's really ever heard of just running all over them. And that wasn't the only time it happened last year. The Raiders game late in the year. They just couldn't stop the run in a close game. The Chiefs game, Week 18, was the same sort of situation. And so that's been a big emphasis. It's why they went and got DJ Jones, paid him a lot of money three years, $30 million, which is big money for a nose tackle.

But the 49ers last year, they were first in defensive rush EPA. They were second in defensive rush DVOA. They were arguably the best run defense in the NFL, and DJ Jones was a huge part of that. So I think people have kind of a little bit overlooked the impact of that signing, particularly because Mike Bursale, who they extended, two seasons ago, ever since he got his extension, has been not healthy and has not been really a part of that defensive mix. It'll be interesting to me to see if he's a post-June-1 release. But DJ Jones is that guy.

And then Draymond Jones, you mentioned it, Lindsay, he popped right away on Monday. This is a guy who all five and a half of his sacks came in the second half of last year after he kind of overcame some early struggles. The talent is there, I think, for him to be one of the better interior defensive linemen in the NFL if he can put it all together. So those are those are kind of the key acre pieces. They need those guys to stay healthy. And then who's going to fill in that Shelby Harris role, as you mentioned? You have a guy like McTalvin Ajim, who is a third-year player, hasn't gotten a lot of playing time so far in this point of his career.

They drafted any Uazareke out of Iowa State in the fourth round. He'll have a look at him. And then Deshaun Williams is a guy that re-signed on a one-year deal as a restricted free agent. So that's kind of the group. And they also had a six-round. I'm pickman, Hensington out of Wisconsin. So they added a lot of depth at that spot. And we'll just kind of have to see how it shakes out.

But they do need DJ Jones and Draymond Jones to stay healthy. That's going to be really key for that group. So one of the big differences for the Broncos, for the Broncos fans are going to have to adjust to is all of a sudden all these primetime games, five of them, although I think a lot of them are on the road. There's not a ton of the prime time games that are going to be happening here in Denver. But when you're looking at that schedule, I have a feeling where you might go with this.

What's your favorite game? Which game do you have circled now on the Broncos schedule? Yeah, it's, you know, it's, it's impossible to not say that week one Monday night, Monday night game in Seattle, you know, Russell Wilson right away coming right back to the place that he played a decade. You know, you can't really, you can't really beat that, I don't think. And, and I just think that that's going to be huge. San Francisco coming in in week three on a Sunday night football game, that's going to be, I think, a huge game. The Broncos, you know, they really need to go win that Seattle game to start the year. Then their home opener in week two is against the Texans. That 49ers game, I think,

can be, it's certainly not a must win at that point in the year, but a chance to really give yourself some momentum during that early part of the schedule because we know how hard their schedule is the last six weeks. So I look at that game at home on a Sunday night. Who knows who will be quarterbacking the 49ers at that point? But we know their defense is going to be really good. We know the defense would be good. And we really well coached and really familiar with Russell Wilson, obviously. So that's a team that's faced him over the years. That's probably the other game that I think early in the season.

And then, Lindsay, as you know, anytime the Broncos play the Chiefs is an event. And especially now with Russell Wilson against Patrick Mahomes, when will this losing streak that has now reached 13 games? When will it mercifully end for Denver? That's another great storyline. Yeah, that's where it keeps coming down to me is every anytime I guess. get asked these questions about like, are the Broncos a contender? Can they win the AFC West? I'm like, just can they beat the Chiefs? Yeah, baby steps. Yeah, I mean, it's been, you say 13 games and like it sounds like a lot, but it was week two of the 2015 season.

You know, they lost to them later in that season during the Super Bowl year. I mean, this was a lot of the Alex Smith years, the entire Patrick Mahomes era. It included the very first game that Patrick Mahomes started for the Chiefs at the end of his rookie year when they were resting all their starters. So I mean, it's been a really, really long time. So before I get, you know, I feel like I'm getting that, like, I feel that excitement in Denver. I feel the buzzer when you go out to Dove Valley. But like before I buy into like the Broncos as a contender, I need to see how they stack up against the chiefs. And the rest of the division. Look, the Raiders have owned them. Yep. That, that's a huge part of the reason why Vic Fangio is not coaching the Broncos this year.

It wasn't just that they, they had the losing seasons. They could not compete in their own division. They lost, they've lost four in a row now to the Raiders. Like beating the Raiders used to be just sort of a thing that that was always supposed to happen for the Broncos. They were not supposed to lose to the Raiders. And now they can't, they can't find a way to beat them. You know, they've kind of, I think, split with the Chargers the last couple of years. But even that has not been previously a marker of success for the Broncos. You know, it's a division they're used to dominating.

And they have clearly been the worst team in it. So that's everything. They have to do well in these divisions. And even with adding Russell Wilson, these games are going to continue to be really tough games for the Broncos. And they just have to find a way to go no worse than three and three in this division. Yeah. Because everybody else in the division is loaded up. And that's why we're here today talking about the best division in football.

So, well, Nick, thank you so much for joining me today. Everybody go read the stuff that Nick has been writing all this week at The Athletic about the Broncos. You've got a ton of insight into what's been going on with the new look, Russell Wilson Broncos. So we'll talk to you soon. Thanks, Nick. Thanks, Lindsay. And now we're joined by Nate Taylor, our chiefs writer. How's it going, Nate? Oh, it is going, Lindsay.

Doing well. How are you? We're good. We're hanging in there. I'm just really excited to talk about the AFC West. And I'm so excited. We did one of these live rooms that we do at the athletic or you guys did a live room. The AFC West Beat Writer is about a month ago. And I just couldn't help myself. And I jumped in because you guys are some of my feet.

favorite coworkers. It's my favorite division. So I wanted to jump in. So I wanted to kind of recreate some of that here today. But I wanted to kind of get into the big storylines that have been going on with the chiefs. And I do think there's a bit of this national perception. And I think I'm certainly part of this where when you look around the AFC West and you see the Russell Wilson trade and the DeVante Adams trade and the Kahliel Mack trade and some of these big free agents and then you look at the chiefs and you say, well, what are the chiefs doing themselves? And part of the Part of that is like, look, they're the king of that division, right? And everybody else and I was chasing the chiefs, they're having to make moves to try to keep up with what Kansas City is doing.

But you can kind of look at the chiefs right now and say, I don't know if they're a better team or at least a better roster team on paper right now than they were when we saw them last playing in the end of January, early February, whenever the AFC championship game was. So I wanted to kind of get your pulse on, you know, is that fair, right? I mean, is that perception fair kind of for where the chiefs are at? And, you know, when we look at what the big moves are, right, the biggest thing, right, was the Tyree Kill trade. But the offense is going to look a lot different. Juju Smith, Schuster, Marquezvold is Scanling. They drafted receiver Sky Moore. Does that, is that necessarily going to be as much of a bad thing as maybe some people are expecting it to be?

So when you look at kind of the current state of the chief's roster, you know, where do you think they're at right now, maybe compared to the chief's team? that we know and what we may be expect of them. Yeah, no, you framed it perfectly, Lindsay, because I can say today on record that they are not as good as they were two years ago when they went to the Super Bowl and ultimately lost to the Temo Bay Buccaneers. And at least as of right now, I don't believe they're as good as they were a year ago because of just the impact that Tyree Kiel created,

not just in January, but there was always the threat of him connected with Patrick Mahomes, you know, as I've written before, they were sort of this perfect marriage in terms of football between receiver and quarterback and what you could do in the modern NFL when, you know, all the rules sort of suggest, hey, just keep passing the ball. It's fascinating because, you know, I can clearly say, and I'm sure, you know, everybody else has said this, like, the chargers are better, the Broncos are better. The Raiders, I think, appear to be better. Now, there can be a ton of questions about their defense, and I'll be fascinated to see where they go. For the Chiefs, this is sort of a long-term play while hoping to maintain a level of

competency. And because of that, I think fans just sort of give the Chiefs the benefit of the doubt while also acknowledging that they may not win the division. And I think that's totally fair for me to say, and for anyone who's watched this division sort of balloon into a complete absolute arms race over the offseason, and the Chiefs are trying to make small moves that equal into something that will allow them to be where they were a year ago, back in the AFC championship game, and you hope in that stage their quarterback plays two good halves of football, not one. You know, that was the clear reason, you know, overarching as to why they didn't go to the Super Bowl for a third straight year. Patrick Mahomes became human all of a sudden, you know,

on that fourth down decision right before halftime, and then he had a couple turnovers. And unfortunately, that led to this sort of new genre, this new iteration of the Chiefs, where they're going to have a lot more younger players on defense. And the offense can be somewhat unpredictable now. And because you have a Hall of Fame coach in Andy Reed, because you have a superstar quarterback in Patrick Mahomes, they deserve the benefit of the doubt. But I'm not going to be surprised, Lindsay, at some point in December or maybe into early January, if it's a true race between them and the Chargers or them and the Brongers.

or them and the Broncos or even them and the Raiders because I think those divisional games are going to matter even more so than normal just because I think these teams are jumbled up in a way that's fascinating. And I think for the first time since I've been at the athletic, I can't say definitively, yes, the Chiefs are going to win the division and more focus my attention on the rest of the conference when it comes to how everything's going to look in January.

Yeah, I mean, I think a big part of the Chief's success over the last few years, you know, obviously having the, arguably the best quarterback in football is a big part of it. But they've been able to sweep the Raiders and sweep the Broncos basically annually. I mean, those games have not been that competitive. So it's like, you can just say here's four wins against two of our division rivals every year. It gives you a nice little head start in the division. Right.

I mean, sadly, Broncos fan, the joke I usually make is like, I think my son was won the last time the Broncos beat the shoes. Well, so our children, to pull back the curtain, my daughter and your friend, your son have hung out several times. We take them to the playground and stuff when we're in Kansas City or Denver. And yeah, my daughter just finished kindergarten. And I was not pregnant with her the last time. She was not even like a, she was maybe a glimmer in my eye. Right, right.

Right. I mean, she was literally not a thing yet. I mean, it's been a very, very long time. And she's off like, you know, reading chapter books and stuff now. Like a mom flex right here. a little humble brag. But yeah, I mean, it has been a very long time. We just talked about that with Nick Cosminder about when we're talking about how the

Broncos measure success. To me, measuring success is you got to beat the Chiefs ones. Let's not talk about can you make the Super Bowl. Can you beat the Chiefs? I do think that gap has closed a little bit now. But I do want to get into a little bit about what this post-Tiree Kill version of the chiefs is going to look like. I know we're, you know, haven't gotten to see a lot.

We're at that point of the offseason right now where, you know, you get little bits of OTAs here and there. But what you've gathered by, you know, who you've talked to, you can connect a lot of dots with the moves that they've made, the receivers they've signed and drafted. What's your sense of what this next iteration of the Chief's offense is going to look like now that they don't have Tyree Kill to kind of do everything for them? Right. I'm going to give a best case scenario, Lindsay, and a worst case scenario. Okay. So the optimistic version is they become what the Patriots got to be when Tom Brady, I felt, really reached his prime post after maybe Randy Moss, right? Because I think there were questions then that, hey, when Randy Moss wasn't around,

you guys aren't going to go undefeated, the Super Bowl. But the great thing about the Patriots was, hey, we have multiple tight ends. We have running backs out of the backwood who can catch and are elusive enough to make plays in the open field. We have quality enough receivers and enough quantity of them. that you can't individually take one or two guys away. And so the best case scenario is that, you know, Patrick Baham's completion percentage goes up a little bit more, and I'll sort of dive into this more as we get further into the offseason.

And I actually am able to digest at least the first impressions of this new offense. Sky Moore is, you know, really fast as a rookie. He ran a 4-3 at the combine. And so maybe he could be part of your deep threat alongside with Marquez, Valdez-Gantlin. And so anytime the Chiefs line up, it's hard to indicate where the ball is going to go. Where I always felt watching in the press box, Lindsay, every third down, I didn't necessarily look at Tyree Kill.

I always looked at Travis Kelsey. Because what Kelsey did was always dictate the defense to give my homes an advantage, whether, hey, I'm going deep to Tyree because I see a one-on-one matchup or poor linebacker, poor safety. You have no shot in the middle to cover Travis Kelsey in his prime on a third down. the offensive line was really good last year. You hope that stabilizes and moves forward. So there is a variety of ways that the Chiefs can beat you.

And that was what was so good about the Patriots where it's like, you know you have the Hall of Fame quarterback, and they're going to shape and shift to whatever your weakness is that week, and then they're going to exploit it to the best of their ability because they have so many skill and just competent smart players around the quarterback. Now, the worst case scenario is Sky Moore, hey, playing in the NFL, really hard. Marquez Vaudet Scanlan never had a thousand yards in his career. Can he be as reliable or more reliable playing next to Patrick Mahomes than he ever did, playing next to, I don't know, Aaron Rogers, the back-to-back MVP.

Travis Kelsey is sort of entering the twilight of his career. He's sort of at that stage where no one has had six straight thousand-yard receiving seasons like Travis. Kelsey, can you do seven? Well, that's asking a lot. You know, as you get older, you take more hits. You know, the wear and tear on your body sort of deteriorates. One of the fascinating things last year that I think kind of was underlooked was that, yes, the Chiefs had this young, whole new offensive line, but they all played. I mean, Orlando Brown, the left tackle play 16 of the 17 games. The rookies, Trey Smith, Creed Humphrey, even Lucas Nying, they played nine or more games. So if they have injuries,

If the turnover store to stay where they were a year ago, where they were dropped passes, Mahomes had sort of the first real dip, the first real slump in his career. And if there is no legitimate deep threat, then all of a sudden, cover three becomes more viable. Cover two, cover four become legitimate. Maybe teams, I don't know, Lindsay, get cocking and start blitzing the chiefs, which they never do. Unless you're the Ravens. But winged back and the, yeah, week is still like, you know, hey, we got one. even though they gave up, you know, another 30 piece to the chief.

So all of this is to say is it's a lot of what ifs on both sides. And again, because of the quarterback, because of the head coach, you give them the benefit of the doubt. But I can see a path where, hey, they're 10 and 7, 11 and 6. You're not really like in love with what you see. Maybe they beat, you know, not the most impressive teams on this gauntlet of a schedule that they have in front of them. and all of a sudden everything is on Patrick Mahomes' shoulders. And if anybody knows what that's like, it's Russell Wilson, which the moment the Seahawks stopped going to Super Bowls,

it got really, really hard. And so the more I think about it, the listener can sort of decide either way. And I don't think they're wrong. Is this sort of a choose-your-adventure for where the next stage of the Chiefs go? but there's a case where defensive coordinators look at this offense to say there might be more problems now than were before

because at least we knew Tyree Kill and or Travis Kelsey versus five or six guys. And there may be times where defensive coordinator say, ooh, I could really concoct something because I don't think one guy can beat us if we can just get to the quarterback. Yeah. All right.

So let's flip to the other side of the ball. You've talked about the defense a little bit. and I don't know how many words you and I have both spilled on the, on the athletic.com, how many minutes we've talked about it here on this podcast about the Chief's Defense historically had through stretches last year, kind of pulled it together through the second half of the season. Things started to seem to be clicking. They moved the Chris Jones is a defensive end outside Russia.

That doesn't really work. Bump him back inside. Obviously not nearly good enough in the AFC championship game, especially with their defensive backs, their cornerbacks. their cornerbacks in that situation. Catch me up to speed on where this Chief's defensive roster is right now. You mentioned that they wanted to get younger. I think that was a very clear message through not resigning Tyrone Matthew,

some of the draft picks, you know, using a first-round pick, or both of their first-on picks, excuse me, on defensive players. So where do you, where does this defense stand? And is there anywhere you think that they've gotten better? And then what are the areas that you're still a little concerned about roster-wise? Yeah. The Tyreek Hill trade, you know, in return, the Chiefs got five draft picks. But in a short version of it, they made the trade to ensure that the defense was going to be going to have the chance to get better over the course of this upcoming season. Because I think Brett Vise, the general manager, Andy Reid, Patrick Mahomes, and Steve Spagnola, the defensive coordinator, you realized in that game against the Bengals that their roster was.

imbalanced. And with Tyron Matthew playing through multiple injuries last year, and I commend him on it, but he's 30. He's not going to get younger. One of the surprises was that Frank Clark, who used to be a star pass rusher, has dealt with multiple injuries, has dealt with some off the field

incidents this pass off season. He actually restructured his contract to come back, but they don't really have a lot of veterans, Lindsay. I mean, you look up and down the roster. They got rid of Anthony Hitchens. They released him. There's there's a chance that this defense is so young, so early, that similar to what Steve

Spegnello has endured multiple times in his tenure in Kansas City, the defense isn't going to be good until like October, November, because it's just going to take you seven to eight weeks for these guys to really, you know, become a cohesive unit. Without Tyron Matthews' leadership, without Anthony Hitchin sort of making sure that the linebacking situation is at least solidified, there's a chance that this defense can be somewhat compromised yet again. So much of the concern last year was, why is Daniel Swarmson playing over Wongthorne Hill?

Well, this year. I contributed to that. I'm sorry. Didn't we all? Didn't we all? I still get the sense that, yes, they replaced Tyre Matthew essentially with Justin Reed. You know,

they drafted Tripp McDuffie, who might be their starting nickel cornerback. He could have some versatility to play outside. All of a sudden, George Kalloftus becomes one of the more interesting players for the Chiefs defense. He was taking 30th overall in the draft. He's going to get starter minutes now because Melvin Ingram chose to sign with the Dolphins over the Chiefs. They're just going to trade for him and get him back in November.

There are so many jokes that have been made about like, hey, maybe Melvin won't like it in Miami and he will maneuver his way yet again for another six-round pick to join the Chiefs. It's a long game. Yeah, ensuring that he got the most money he could on the free agency market and then ending the season on perhaps the better team. Honestly, if that happened, I would respect it. Hey, he is a smart, KG veteran, you know, to try to get the most money and then sort of see where the season plays out. But the biggest concern, Lindsay, is I don't know if they're going to get to the quarterback. Not when.

I don't even know if they're going to get to the quarterback outside of Chris Jones. So thankfully, he'll play from the. interior throughout the course of the season. But look, Frank Clark has struggled the last two years. You're going to ask a lot out of George Carlottis, a rookie who was not taken in the top five. So, like, let's not expect double-digit sacks. That would be sort of a dream scenario somehow. We know Spagnola loves the blitz, and I love that Nate Tice always says Spaggs is just

waiting to get the third down to do some shit, which is basically what he had to do all last year. And I get the sense that, look, the Chargers have Bosa. and back, okay? The Raiders have Crosby and, uh, tell me, tell me who the new guy. And Chandler Jones for In Gokwe basically, yes. Um, look, the Broncos have Lawrence and Chubb. I have faith in all three of those duo pass rushers. Should I have faith in Chris Jones and or Frank Clark, George Carloptis?

Yeah. Yeah, it's, they're going to have to get a lot of turnovers this year. And I mean a lot. I mean, if I was the coaching staff, tip drills, like, D, B's working on their hands constantly, can the linebackers sort of make a play, you know, I would work on punching the football out, fellas, as much as wrapping up. They're going to need a ton of turnovers because I just don't know how they're going to get pressure on the quarterback when they were one of the worst teams of doing that a year ago.

and I don't really see much improvement at that spot other than, hey, we drafted a rookie late in the first round. All right. So before I let you go, I've been asking all the guys this here. We now know the schedule. The primetime slate is going to be super loaded with AFC West games. What game do you have circled on your calendar for the Chiefs as this is the must watch game I'm most excited about? Oh, that is so tough because I think for the athletic I wrote about, hey, you know, it's my home's Brady. yet again in Tampa. Yeah, that's pretty good. In terms of the division, it doesn't have to be a division game.

Well, I don't, I mean, I love... Week two against the Chargers. I know, I was just about to say, like, I love Amazon Prime. Use it thoroughly, but... Can't pair without it. Yeah, why are we doing this game on September 15th? Like, why?

I don't love that, like... That was a bow into their new broadcast partners at Amazon. prime. It was. It was. By the way, ladies and gentlemen, I am high on Justin Herbert. Like, I have not come down. I'm still high from watching him in person twice last year, go toe to toe against Patrick Mahomes. I, like, if the Chiefs don't win the division, I will take full responsibility in placing that on Justin Herbert's shoulders. But look, can Chiefs Broncos be something on December 11th? Because they do. do this every year to us, Lindsay.

They make us go through Chiefs Broncos prime time. And I just wanted to be a good game. And then it's just like a total die. It's like poor Teddy Bridgewater, poor Drew Locke. So look, I think the Broncos have a legitimate shot to get the six or seventh seed in the conference. You know, I'm assuming that either the Chiefs or the charges will probably win the division. But that game could be critical in early December in Denver. and it could be a statement win for the Broncos to say,

hey, we have a legitimate shot if we get in the dance because of the quarterback we have. All right. I'll say the other one that I've got circled, October 16th against the Buffalo Bills. I'm hoping it goes 18 overtimes. I mean, I know that's not how it works. Right.

In the regular season. But like, if we could just change it, just, yeah. Josh Allen, Patrick Mahomes. I'd rather see them playing football against each other than golf together. But I will watch. I will watch the golf match. Yeah. And look.

that's, you know, I look at that game and I'm like, okay, uh, Ligerious need, you're a third year quarterback. Good luck, son. All right, Nick Bolton, you're a second year linebacker. Well, this is, this is one of the harder tests of the year. I thought you were saying you were going to look at that, you're looking at that game and already panicking about what the deadline situation, because it's going to come down to the final possession.

Probably. Yeah, yeah, probably. But you just, you just look around and you're like, all right, Trit McDuffie, that's great. Here's Stefan did it. Great, great. And by the way, this quarterback really accurate, really throws a nice deep ball. He's not in the PAC 12 anymore. You just, you know, this is not, this is the highest of the high levels.

So Chris Jones is the most important person on the Chiefs defense. And that is wild to say because he's not Aaron Donald. And that's asking a lot. But the Chiefs kind of need him to be the AFC West, AFC's Aaron Donald. Yeah, absolutely. Well, this is always been fun. It's always a pleasure to talk to you. I can't wait to get out to Kansas City and see you, let our kids ride around the playground together.

And so, yeah, we will talk to you soon and make sure you're reading all of Nate's coverage of the Chiefs over on the athletic. I'm looking, yeah, thank you. I'm looking so forward to the Lena Pick segment. That's when I know it's football season, when Lena tells me, what? And then Sunday at 4 o'clock, ah, she was right again. Wow. She's ready. She's ready for football season.

Aren't we all? Awesome. We'll talk to you soon. Thanks, Nate. All right. Thank you, Lindsay. And now to wrap up our run through the AFC West, we've got Daniel Popper covering the Chargers. What's up, Daniel?

Not too much. Thanks for having me on. Well, we really saved Roberts' favorite team for last. I know he's going to probably check this podcast while he's in Mexico and be so angry that we're talking about Justin Herbert without him. But it's my show. And I want to talk about Justin Herbert. So we're going to do that. So obviously Justin Herbert is like the dominant storyline for the Chargers right now. But I don't think he's the only interesting thing that's going on with the charges right now.

So can you kind of set the table a little bit for us about where the chargers are at right now as opposed to where they were when the season, last season kind of really ended in disappointment, not making the playoffs? We know about the couple of the big moves, right? The Khalil Mack trade signing J.C. Jackson. But, you know, what are the biggest moments you think of the offseason, the most important things that have gotten the charges to this point as we're getting into the on-field portion? Yeah, so I think big picture, like this is the most complete roster the charges have had since I started covering the team in 2019. And I think the way they got there was really targeting the defensive side of the ball. And it was a priority for this organization heading into the off season. And you go back to what you mentioned, that disappointing end of the season with the Raiders.

They couldn't get a stop, a run stop on a third down. And that's what set up the Raiders for the field goal that knocked the Chargers out of the playoffs. And there's no doubt about it that that specific play in that game left the bitter taste in the Chargers mouth. And they felt like they had to overhaul this defense. Brandon Staley felt like he needed more talent. The Chargers finished 26th in defensive DVOA. They finished 28th in EPA per play, which is well below what they expected. They hired Brandon Staley, who was widely regarded as one of the best defensive minds in football.

And they felt like with the pieces they had existing on the roster that Brandon Staley could turn it into a league average defense. And that didn't materialize. And so the priority this offseason was getting playmakers on defense, game changers on defense. And that's what they did. They traded for Klua Mac. They signed J.C. Jackson. They completely overhauled their defensive line after a really atrocious run defense performance last season, signing two free agents. And Austin Johnson, Sebastian Joseph Day.

They drafted another defensive lineman, big guy, Otito Obanilla out of UCLA in the fifth round, 330 pounds, 34 and a half inch arms, just a big guy that can eat blocks. And they signed a fourth defensive lineman. just recently in Morgan Fox, a pass rushing threat. And then they drafted another safety with their third round pick in J.T. Woods, which they think will free up Derwin James to move around the field more. They signed Bryce Callahan to play in the slot. So Brandon Saley went out and found guys that he felt like could fit his scheme. And you go through the list of the moves they made this off season.

It's a lot of guys that have played in this scheme before. Yeah. So I was just going to kind of say like, I think we're knowing more about like who Brandon Staley is a coach. What type of players? that he wants. So now that maybe this roster is more complete, what sort of style of defense do you think they're going to play?

And how does the addition of some of these guys, what sort of freedom is going to, is that going to give Brandon Staley as a defensive play caller? We know he likes to move guys in different positions. So how do you picture all of this kind of all shaking out now? Yeah, I think number one is they're going to be able to play the types of coverages that Brandon Staley wants to play. He likes, I mean, you know, they get sort of labeled as a team that plays, you know,

a lot of zone because that's what the numbers show, but it's really a lot of pattern match zone, which effectively turns to man after the ball is snapped and the receivers start running their routes. And they didn't have the players to play those types of coverages last year. And they got burned time and time again, whether it was, you know, Tevon Campbell, whether it was Michael Davis.

They went out and they found guys that could succeed in those situations, you know, starting with J.C. Jackson. They feel like they have a lot more depth in that secondary after signing Bryce Callahan, after bringing in J.T. Woods, that they can weather injuries, if that happens. Obviously, Asante Samuel Jr. is coming back. So I think number one, they're going to be able to play the types of coverages they want. They're going to have the type of variety that they want, both in terms of personnel packages and then the coverages that they play.

And I think JT was a really good example of this. They felt like if they were going to move Derwin James around, play him in the slot, play him at linebacker, playing at money, their dimebacker position in dime packages. They needed to protect themselves in the deep part of the field. And last year when they moved Durwin James around, they had Naz Adderley back there, who's his fellow started at safety. But they were playing a lohey Gilman, Trey Marshall, a guy. They picked up Waivers was playing a lot. did not have that protection in the deep part of the field. And they were burned on numerous occasions as a result. So they go out and they draft J.T. Woods, a guy with outstanding speed and

outstanding range so that when they do move Durwin to the slot, when they do move in closer line of scrimmage, when they do play him at edge rush, which they do at times, they like invented a new position for him, that they feel like they can be protected in the deep part of the field. And then up front, I think they really felt like they needed a dominant pass rusher opposite Joey Boso to give him more one-on-one opportunities on the edge. They found that in Kulamak. And then they just needed bigger dudes up front. And guys who are familiar with the scheme. Spassion Joseph Day has obviously been super successful in the scheme in 2020 with the Rams. They just went out and got big guys that can eat up blocks. And it's a different style of run

defense and run fitting than what Gus Bradley played. So you had to really find different guys that could play in this scheme, take on double teams, be really stout on the interior. Justin Jones is a guy who I really like, but he's a penetrator. That's what he does. He's a three technique who can line up and penetrate up the field. He's not particularly adept at taking on double teams who are being really stout against double teams. The guys they got are going to be really good at that. Spassian Joseph Day. Austin Johnson, Othio Abanya. So I think at all three levels of the defense, they've gone out,

and they found guys that are going to allow brand silly to call the game the way he wants to call it and play the game that he wants to play the game the way he wants to play it. What do you think is a reasonable expectation for Khalil Mack this year at this stage of his career, his age, injury, history, how's he looking? What do you think is fair for us to expect out of him? Yeah, I think it's a really great question because it is the most important question when you're assessing this trade. What do the charges feel like they can get out of him?

It's coming off the foot injury. that limited him to seven games last year. But as Brandon Silly does, he's going to ease him back in. He wasn't participating in individual drills on Monday. So they're really going to ease him back in and make sure that they phase him incorrectly and make sure that he's healthy. But I think when they made the trade, they're not saying, okay, we're going to give up the second round pick and we're going to get defensive player

of the year, Khalil Mack from, you know, 2017, 2018, that level of play. But if you can get 80% of what he was at that moment in his career, that's a win because it's not like you need him to be. that all world player. You've got that guy. Right. You've got that guy on the other side. Joey Bosa,

one of the best in the entire league. And so if he can be 80% of that, and he's seeing a lot of one-on-ones against tackles, they feel like they can get a lot out of them. And I went back and I watched the tape from last year because obviously there's this narrative about Colomac that he's declining. He's not the same player. I mean,

he still looks pretty damn good. And like every time he was matched up one-on-one with a tackle, he still has that bull rush in his back pocket where he can completely declet a 330-pound man and get to the quarterback. Like I saw it time and time again. He still has the speed and bend off the edge. Like he's still a really, really good player. I don't think the charges are expecting, okay,

defensive player of the year. But if they can get 75%, 80% of that, if they can get 15 games out of him at that level, all of a sudden that opens up a lot for this defense, particularly with Joey Bosa, who's really felt, you know, the weight of having to be that number one guy with all of that attention on him over the last, you know, two years, especially last year in Braini's daily scheme.

Well, I'm jacked up to watch that do. I mean, there's a lot of really good pass rushing duos in this division. I'll take the Chargers, I think, is my favorite one, which is tough because Max Crosby and Traynler Jones. Yeah. That's pretty fun. But Bosa, Khalil Mack, I think is going to be pretty fun and against all of these quarterbacks in the division.

So, all right, let's talk about Justin Herbert. Okay, let's do it. We could probably do a whole hour. We're not. We're going to go like 10 minutes maybe here on Justin Herbert. But what do you see is the biggest challenge facing Herbert now as he heads into year three? That's a really good question. You know, I think for him, and this is something that he's talked about a lot and the coaches talk about,

it's just getting more comfortable in the scheme and getting more comfortable in the system with the coaches, with the pieces around him. And, you know, last year, I think the early stages of training camp were really difficult. And he told this, you know, to me that they just threw everything out. him. They gave him the entire offense all at once. And he told me it felt like I was drowning early on. And he still was able to perform, you know, at that level last season, despite that. And I think that shows what kind of acumen he has. It shows, you know, obviously we all see the physical traits, but it shows just his level of intelligence and his work ethic and all of those things.

But can he, you know, grow within the system being around these coaches, being around these players, will that raise him to another level? Can he find that next level? as he finds that comfortability, you know, in the offense. And you're talking about a player here who has never had that sort of, you know, continuity in his coaching staffs or his or his systems going back to college. I mean, it was a new offensive coordinator after a new offensive coordinator after a new coach. And that happened again in the NFL when Anthony Lynn got fired. This is the first time in a long time, you know, since even as far back his high school,

that he's had, you know, the same offensive coordinator, the same quarterback coach, the same system, mostly the same weapons around him, you know, the same center, same entire left side of the line, same receiving core. Obviously, they went out and found Gerald Everett, it's a little bit of a tweak. But, you know, I don't know if that's necessarily, you know, a challenge, but if he really wants to get to that next level, and I think that the charge believed there is a next level for Justin Herbert, it's can he master this offense the way that Drew Breeze did? And they feel like he can get to that level because that's what made Drew Brees great in the system was that he was, you know, maybe the most elite processor we've ever seen on a football

field. People in the building think Justin Herbert has the ability to get to that level. Can he master this offense and really start winning with his mind as opposed to just his physical tools? How do you think they feel about the protection right now and particularly on the right side of that line? Yeah. I mean, to me, that's the only concern on the roster. Like I'm typically a cynic. I mean, I don't know if I'm a cynic. I'm a realist. You're a cynic. It's fine. It's fine. No, but usually this time year everyone's hyping up the chargers and it's been going on for years and years and years ever since i got on the beat they're going to win the super bowl they're a dark horse blah blah blah blah blah and i'm always like well what about this and what about this and what about the corner depth and what about the

safety depth and what about their special teams and so on and so forth this year i only have one of those questions and it's outright tackle um now i think what they believe is okay we have this left side of the line that is a true weapon both in the run game and in past protection with cori lindsley matt philer and rachshont slater they feel like that's really solid they go out in the first round and they draft Zion Johnson who, I mean, I haven't one person in any community, whether it's on Twitter, whether it's coaches, whatever, that believe that this guy isn't going to be an immediate contributor and be able to play at a high level right away. So you feel like, okay, we've got four guys up there that we feel like can win on an island. And that means that the

Chargers can then divert all of their help and all of their attention to helping out whoever ends up starting at Wright Tackle, whether that's Storm Norton or Trey Pickens or someone else. I think it's going to be one of those two guys at the end of the day. That's going to be the training camp battle. So that's really the only concern. But if you feel like you can scheme around it, if you feel like the other four guys are really, really, really elite players in terms of past protection, then you can send all of your chip help, all of your tight end help,

all of your running back help, all of that to the right side and help those guys be successful. But to sit here and say that it isn't a concern would be lying because we all saw, you know, the rough patches that Storm Norton had last year. And but part of this, and this is something. that I've been thinking about a lot recently. Like, part of really good organizations is player development. Like, that's a reality of it. Like, you're not going to be able to just to find fixes all over the field.

At some point, if you want to win a Super Bowl, you have to develop the players that you have in house and you have to see that growth. And so I think part of it is them feeling like they have these four other players in the line that are really good and they can divert all their help to the right side. And then I'm also feeling like, you know, we can develop these two guys and get something out of Storm Norton and Trey Pivins that maybe we haven't seen yet. And so it's a concern, but. you know, they feel like they're in a position to whether that concern as the season progresses.

Well, I think when we're talking, you know, the AFC West and like, you're right, everybody's hyping the Chargers. I'm right there in that group. I think when we did our staff power rankings a couple weeks ago, they were clearly the second team in the AFC West and not very far behind the Chiefs. But they didn't make the playoffs last year. They weren't second in the division last year. How much do you think that gap is closed now between the Chargers and, well,

the Raiders, who they lost two in week 18, I guess it was week 18, right? Yeah. And but then certainly with the chiefs, have they made up that, that ground, not just in like on a one game basis, but do you think they've done enough to overtake the chiefs in that division now? Yeah. Well, personally, I don't think the gap was that big to begin with. And you can go back and watch those, those two games that the charges played against

the chiefs last year. I mean, they won one of them and they lost the other one in overtime with, you know, a lot injuries and guys being out in that game situation yeah yeah they split the series of the raiders and were one you know run stop away from for making the playoffs so you know I feel like it was really tight last year I feel like the gap between the chiefs and the charges wasn't that large to begin with and the charges have only made their roster more complete they filled a lot of their holes and this feels like to me the closest the division has been since since I got on the beat you know before the 2019 season I picked them to win the division I'm I'm buying into the hype finally but

that's because I see a roster that's ready to win the division finally. You know, I feel like the issues in earlier seasons really came down to a lack of depth. You know, first two seasons I was here under Anthony Lynn was really lack of depth and talent in the offensive line. Last year, I obviously, you know, had concerns with, you know, the O-line depth plus some issues defensively. But this year, I see a complete roster. I see a top five quarterback in the NFL.

And I see a damn good offensive line that played well last year and added a first round pick in Zion Johnson to, to improve it. Like it feels like a better group. So yes, I feel like they close the gap. And I think this is their best shot to win the division that I've seen since I started covering the team. And, you know, I don't say that lightly because I am, as I said, you know, a big cynic or realist, depending on how you want to, how you want to frame it. Danny Downer over here. Yeah.

I love that. All right. So I've asked all the other guys. What game did you circle on the Cal when the schedule came out and said, all right, this is the game where we're going to learn a lot of. about who the Chargers are, if they're for real, what sort of trajectory they're on? Or is there a game that you're just like, this is going to be fun as how I can't wait for this one? Yeah, I mean, it starts out right away.

They got two division games right off the bat. You know, they open up with the Raiders and then they go on. And they have a short week that week two on Thursday night at the Chiefs, night game and Arrowhead. So you're going to find out like right away, those two games and two AFC West games, which I know you're going to be really excited to watch both those. You're going to find out right away. And, you know, we know what the offense is going to be, right?

As long as Justin Herbert stays in the field, it's going to be a good offense. You know, I think the question is, is it, you know, the fifth best, best offensive football? Or is it the best offensive football? That's really, like, what we're talking about here with the Chargers offense. Defensively, there are a lot of questions because there are so many new pieces. And I think in those first two weeks, you're going to go up against two excellent offenses. And you're going to see, okay, is this Chargers defense really going to make that huge jump that everyone's expecting, you know, based on the moves they made this offseason. So those two games right off the bat, I think, I think answers your question.

you're going to find out in those two games what this division is going to look like and what this charge of defense is going to look like specifically because I think that's sort of the big question mark that we still have to answer here. Well, I for one am very much looking forward to OTA and mini camp Justin Herbert highlights to just be filling my Twitter feed and my Instagram feed and like shooting into my veins or whatever it is the kids say. I'm ready. I'm ready for some of those new.

I've been going back and watching a lot of last year, Justin Herbert highlights. I'm ready for some new stuff to get me excited about, irrationally excited, probably about the Chargers for the spring. But we look forward to reading all of your coverage and finally getting to see the Chargers in person here in a couple months. So Daniel, thank you so much for joining us, and we'll talk to you again soon. Sounds good. Thanks for having me, Lindsay.

Well, that's all we got for you guys. Thank you so much for listening to The Athletic Football Show, Rate, Review, subscribe, and we'll be back with all new episodes next week. This was the athletic football show.