The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - All-Pro Team picks with Nate Tice, Darius Butler, and Brandon Thorn

Episode Date: December 30, 2020

Robert is joined by The Athletic Football Show’s Nate Tice, former NFL cornerback and co-host of The Man to Man Pod, Darius Butler, and Trench Warfare Newsletter’s Brandon Thorn, to give their expert opinions on the offensive and defensive sides of the ball, respectively, and help fill out this season’s NFL First and Second All-Pro Team rosters, handing out some honorable mentions along the way.And, from now through December 31, you can get an annual subscription to The Athletic and give one free when you visit theathletic.com/footballshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert May's really fun show for you guys today. We're bringing out a couple experts in certain position areas to do an all pro team for the athletic football show. Nate is going to join us a little bit later to do quarterback skill position players. I'm making you guys wait through the rest of the positions to get to those guys. Darius Butler is going to come on to do defensive backs and linebackers. Obviously he spent a lot of time in the league as a corner.

He's great insight on that. Before we do any of that, though, one of my favorite people to talk about football with, somebody who watches more line play than all of you have ever watched combined in your entire lives. My buddy Brandon Thorne, Brian, how you doing, man? I'm doing great, Robert, man. I'm excited that you were able to get me on here

just because, you know, I know what I do is kind of in the weeds, but to have an opportunity to talk about it on here is really cool. So I'm excited to do this. It is in the weeds in the best possible way. You recently started. It's the Trench Warfare Newsletter. If you guys have not checked it out, You absolutely should.

It's on substack. I've worked with Brandon a little bit in producing some of this stuff. He is doing work that you cannot find anywhere else. Really detailed analysis of pass rushers, how certain systems help their offensive line. So if you're interested in this kind of thing, please check out the work that he is doing. He's at Brandon Thornton NFL on Twitter. Brandon, let's get into this.

We could probably spend an hour and a half just on these guys. We can't. They're not going to let me, even if I wanted to. Let's go left to right on the offensive line first. So who is your first team all pro left tackle? I went with Tehran Armstead from the Saints. I just think even though with a couple missed starts, he still has 13 starts this year.

He's played almost 80% of the snaps. And I think when he's been on the field this season, he is the best left tackle in the game. I just think I've pretty much felt that way last year as well. I just think right now he's kind of, he's just in his zone. He's in kind of the apex of his career. I think he could do it all as a run and a pass blocker.

You know, he has that elite level athleticism that can do things that pretty much nobody else can, except maybe like Trent Williams. But yeah, I mean, I just think he's kind of head and shoulders right now. Like, he's the guy, I think, in any system, he could do anything you want at the highest level. So he was my first guy that I left off. He was third for me. I agree. He missed a couple games.

I think that's part of the equation. he's a fantastic player. I think you could slot any of these guys in at pretty much any of the spots. I had Tunsell was my first team left tackle. He's the first guy I left off. He's your first guy off. Okay. So here's my argument for Tunsell and I will hear yours because I'm sure you'll have a better one than me.

He's giving up two sacks all year. One of them was to Miles Garrett in one of the best sacks you'll see by anybody the entire season when they played against the Browns. if you look at, I think it's really important to consider a situation with a lot of this stuff. To give up the lack of pressures he's given up in the offense they play in is remarkable. Because in my opinion, if you looked at the numbers, I guarantee you this would bear out. He faces a higher percentage of pure dropback throws in that offense than probably any other left tackle in the entire league. If you go watch what Trent Williams has to do for the Niners and what, console has to do for the Texans, it's a completely different game.

He is dropping back consistently. They don't use play action to help him. They don't use screens to help him. They've thrown six screens this season, the Texans have. Six. The number of pure dropbacks he has to face and how dominant he is on those plays, I just think that he is the most consistent, the smoothest, in my opinion, the most valuable past protector in the NFL right now

when you consider production and scheme and what they ask him to do. Yeah, I mean, I think it's a really good argument. And I don't feel, you know, as strongly about keeping him off as like the second team guy that I have on there. I mean, you can interchange those two. I mean, for me with Tehran, I just, I know a lot about kind of his process and, you know, the things that make him great that maybe other people don't see. And some of the things that he's dealt with this year as well, even though he has missed a couple games, he's played a lot of games injured as well with the pretty significant one to one of his hands. and you could see it when I think when they played Detroit this year. I think it was Detroit.

You could see in that game, I think that's when it happened. And his play tapered off a little bit. So, you know, that certainly should be factored in. But I still think he was still a very good player even when he did get hurt early on. And then, you know, just has kind of continued it. And then I think played the best game of his season last week. But, yeah, I mean, Tunsell, he, like you said, he's a very good.

ask protector. I still think he has some work to do in the run game. I mean, he doesn't, you know, he's not asked to do a whole lot in the run game. He's not featured like Trent Williams and Toronto Armstead are. I think he could be probably, but he just isn't. He's more of just kind of a placement blocker, you know, he just kind of gets to his spot, gets in the way, holds up just for, you know, long enough for the run to, you know, get where it needs to go. So I don't want to knock a left tackle too much for run blocking because obviously pass protection is king. But I do think that that's important when you're looking at the player in a vacuum. And that's kind of what keeps him off for me.

And I do think, you know, I know the numbers, you know, say he's the best past protector. But I don't know. When I see him on tape, I don't think that he has as dominant of ways that he can win as a past protector where he just absolutely shuts guys down to the level that, you know, know, someone like Tehran has. So for me, for those reasons, I just nudged. I mean, for me, Tehran is clearly the number one, but then number two and three, I think are kind of interchangeable. Who's your second team guy? I pick Trent Williams. And I mean, I think this year, you know, what he's done considering his circumstances of being off for the year, he's played 14 games, he's played 93% of snaps. I know he had a game or two there where, you know, he struggled a

little bit, but I think that got overblown. I think this season, he has been outstanding. I mean, I think his game against Chase Young, for instance, I thought he pretty much dominated him. I mean, Trent Williams, excuse me, Chase Young had one rep where he won inside late in the game, but, I mean, for the most part, you know, that he handled Chase Young pretty easily. And I mean, he's done that, I think, week and week out for the most part to a lot of good rushers this year. And I mean, what he does in the run game, I think is second to none. I think he's obviously still very, very special there, and I think he's the best run blocking left tackle and football.

I don't think it's close, by the way. Not only the physical dominance, but what they ask him to do, there were so many plays this year where he's reaching three techniques easily, not even like just getting a hand on a guy and slowing him down, but like completely crossing the guy's face that's a gap in a half over. his ability to do that at his size, there's no one else in the league that can play like that in the run game at left tackle.

And what he does to the second level and pulling and leading in the run game as well is just like it's just nobody can really do that. Tehran is close, but Trent is just, he's just in a different stratosphere when it comes to what he can do in the run game. So for me, that's still really valuable. And with what he's asked to do,

he does it at such a high level that I felt like I needed to kind of give him that recognition, you know, considering all the stuff, too, that he went through. But, you know, clearly I still think past protection is Kane. I think the context that you said as far as the style of the offense that Houston runs, it does make things more difficult. And it kind of plays into, you know, why I kept Ronnie Stanley as my second team left tackle last year is because of style their offense. Yep. I totally agree. So my second team guy is Bakhtiari. I, like the same way to Rod is your guy. Bakhtiari is my guy. I just think. that how easy he is in past protection.

And I think it's, the point you made about Tunsell, I think is really interesting because I think scheme and how you lay out your priorities for offensive linemen can dictate the way they play. So if you look at Bakhtiari three years ago, it's a lot of what Tunsell looks like now, not as dominant in the run game, not as aggressive in the run game, because that wasn't part of what they did. It wasn't like this is going to matter to us. We want this to be important.

to you. If you put Tunsell into the Packers offense now, I think you could see the type of runbacher that Bakhtiari has developed into because of how much more important it is in this offensive system compared to the one he was in before. And I think that's why it's fun to watch Bakhtiari now. It's just he's been a more complete player and the ways he can do certain things with his hands and just all the different sets he has and his plan. And I just think he's a really special player at that spot. So, yeah, Bachari was fourth for me. And I mean, he just, he has 12 start so, you know, missing, you know, those games, you know, but yeah, I mean, Bakhtiari, those are the four for sure. All right. Let's move on. Let's go to guard. So,

I wanted to do a left guard and right guard, and it was just too hard. Was Zach Martin hurt, Marshall Yanda's gone? A couple other right guards were dinged up this year, too. Oh, White Testeros, sure. It's the Castro, Wyatt Tower's been hurt. So it's just been real, it was really difficult for me to do right and left. So I'm just doing two first team guards and two second. team guards. You also did this without us talking about it, which I really appreciate. So who are your, who are your two first team guards? So I went with Elton Jenkins and. Wow. Okay. I like it. I like it. Yeah. I mean, I had to do it because, you know, I just think his availability this year for one, he started every game. He's played 99% of snaps. I think for offensive line availability

is you have to start there. So, you know, that's impressive. Then you can consider he started three different positions this year, right tackle, guard, and center. And I think he's done all at a high level. I think that speaks volumes to his ability to, you know, be versatile and, you know, kind of carry that that tag that he had coming out of college and actually prove it to be true at the highest level was very impressive. And I just think he's become just an outstanding left guard. I think last year as a rookie, I mean, he was very good.

I didn't think he was elite just because you need to do it for another year. And I think he's done what he did last year and then some. So I think he deserves that recognition of being a first team guard in one of those two spots just because of all those reasons. And then Nelson, to me, I still think he's, you know, I think all four of these guards that I picked, you can kind of interchange him. But, you know, I just pick Quentin just because he's kind of, he's so steady, you know. He's the standard.

He is the best player at that position, I think, consistently year after year. I think he's been a little dinged up this year. I think he hasn't looked quite as physically dominant in stretches as he has in the past. He hurt his back before the season. I don't know how much that's bothered him, but he's still, in my opinion, the best left guard in the NFL, and I think he has played like that this year. Like the fact that he just kicked out the left tackle against the Raiders and it's just

like, all right, we're good. I mean, him and Zach Martin are those sorts of players. Yonda used to be like that. They're just special talents at that position. And this is a good Quentin Nelson season and a good Quentin Nelson season is the first team all year. My other one, I'm surprised he's not on yours. I had Alley Marpet because if you look at how different that team looks in pass protection with him and without him, it's so drastic. And it's for two different reasons. One, he is an elite pass blocking left guard. He is fantastic

when you matched up on anybody. But also, he's a really good feel for how defenses are lining up and what their tells are pre-snap, they were a nightmare against stunts when he was not playing. And then when you watch him in there and the way he can play with Jones, Donovan Jones looks so much worse. Donovan Smith, excuse me.

Donovan Smith looks so much worse when Marpet isn't playing next to him. And I think that that is just such a huge compliment to a left guard when you can actively make your left tackle better. No, I completely agree. All right, my place to the bucks, by the way. I should probably make that clear.

The offensive line, but you should spell it out. Sorry, what were you going to say? No, I mean, I can't agree more with what you're saying on Ali Marpet. The fact that he missed some games, you know, only has 12 starts and he's played 78% of snaps. That knocked him down to the second team for me, but I totally agree. When he's in there, I mean, he absolutely is one of the two or three best left guards in the game. And I think he has been for a few years now. I've been kind of beating that drum for a while.

He's a guy who is, you know, he played center and right. guard as well in his first couple years. He moved around and he's very good at all three positions on the interior. He can literally play all three at pretty much the same level, which I don't think people talk about enough. But yeah, so he's he's outstanding, man. He's, he's my second team, one of my second team guys. All right. Who's your other second team guy? I got Roger Saffold. So I just think what he does for that offense is almost similarly as noticeable as what Marpet does, except in the run game. Yeah, totally.

I mean, he just, you know, that's a run-based offense. Play action obviously is a huge part of it. But I think a huge reason for Henry's success is tied to Roger Saffold. As much as it can be to a guard in the running game, I think he kind of is at that level. I think, you know, really as a run blocker, he's, you know, every bit as good and as effective as Quentin Nelson. So, you know, maybe his past blocking isn't as it is. as good as Quentin Nelson's. He doesn't recognize things quite as quickly of a few,

guys do, really. But I think as a run blocker, he's just so dominant. He has the ability to be dominant on a level that nobody can really match except maybe Quentin. So for that reason, and his importance to the offense, I just thought that he was deserving of, you know, kind of recognition in one of those spots. He reminds me a lot of what Yonda used to do on zone runs, where they're just those little nudges he'll give guys, like little tiny hip checks to help his tackle while not slowing down and somehow being way more powerful in those movements than you should be able to when you're not paying attention to them.

Like just nudging a guy off, like off half a man, stuff like that, his ability to help his guys while also being physically dominant. It's just a role in the run game that very few guards play. And, you know, they've had, they're on their third string left tackle right now and their offense hasn't really missed a beat. And I think, you know, part of that is due to him. He's kind of a stabilizing force on that left side as well. So I, in that interior in general is very good.

But yeah, I think he's, he's one of the five or six best left guards in the game, I think. So for my other guard, I had Joe Petonio from the Browns, who I've always loved. Yeah, you and I talk about this. He's one of my favorites. I just think he's such a smart player. I think you and I talked about this last year, because last year in Passport, protection, you could see him a little bit hesitant at times. I think it's because he didn't trust his left tackle.

And I think now with Will's being there on the left side, you've really seen Joel just be able to worry about his job. And I think he's looked better and more comfortable as a result of that. I also think his physicality in the run game is underrated. Like this is a dude who's in his seventh year. He's been to some Pro Bowls. He's gotten paid. He still plays with an edge that like 25-year-old physical guards play with, which

personality-wise, you wouldn't expect that from him. Like, he's just not wired that way. He's like a nice dude. But he brings it. And I think that the style of offense they're playing this year has brought that out of him a little bit, which has been really fun to watch. I think he's been a really good player this year. It's totally fair.

I've always been a fan of him as well. I've always seen him as just kind of a guy who does everything well. Totally. And he doesn't have, like, a part of his game that, like, Saffold, where it's, like, just dominant. But like you said, I think. there's something to be said, especially for offensive line, you want a guy who does everything well and who's consistent and those type of guys can get overlooked pretty easily. And I think he has.

So I have no arguments whatsoever if you want to slide him in there instead of Saffold. There's only a few positions that we're going to go through today where I thought this guy needs to be here and there's no other discussion. I think most of the time, it's kind of, you know, flexible for the most part. And that's that fourth guard spot, I think, is one of them. I had Wyatt Teller as my other second team guard. I know he's only played 10 games. The argument makes total sense. I just think he's been so dominant when he's been on the field.

And we saw what our offense looked like without him last week. I think he deserves it. I also think that right guard spot has been such a wasteland this year because of injuries. He has been so clearly the best right guard in the league when he's been on the field that even with the time he's missed, I still feel comfortable putting him in there. I think he's been that impactful, especially as a run blocker. I mean, you and I talked about this early in the season. I can't remember a guard being used as a weapon like this as a polar, everything else,

the way that he has this year outside of maybe Quentin Nelson. Some of the stuff he does for the Browns in the run game reminds me of some of the stuff Trent Williams does for the Niners in the run game. Yeah, I mean, the only reason that he's not on here is because of the missed time for me. But I, you know, I echo everything you said. he's been the best, probably the best overall guard in the NFL this year when he's been on the field either side. So he definitely is deserving a recognition. And, you know, he did, you know, the rise that he has had playing for Bill Callahan and assistant coach Scott Peters. I mean,

it's just been remarkable. And, you know, I got to talk to Scott Peters a little bit about him and, you know, just learn about kind of how his professionalism and things like that. And, yeah, I hope he gets healthy and I think that, you know, they need him to, you know, keep him. Well, I know they have a must win this weekend, but they need him for, you know, them to have any chance of reaching kind of the apex of what they can do offensively. He is a huge part of that. All right. Let's get to center. I could have thrown a dart. I just put Rodney Hudson as my first team center because he, it's like, just to go, Quentin Nelson thing, like a good Rodney Hudson season as a first team all pro season. And I just think that that's what he's done. I had Corey Lindsay as my second team

center. I know he's missed some time, but I just think Corey's been a really solid player for a really long time, super smart and has just been a linchpin for that offense. They've been so good. I just wanted to give him a nod in a small way, even though he's missed some time this season. So those are my two guys. I think you could throw a bunch of different people in there. Who were your first and second team centers? So I have Hudson is my second team for the reasons that you mentioned pretty much. I think he's such a stabilizing force for the interior, just the amount of stuff he does pre-snap. And he hasn't missed a single snap. I mean, he's just so reliable. So, you know, that's that's just Rodney Hudson year and year out at this point. But first team for me is Ryan Jensen. I think he's been the best

center in the league this year. And I think when you watch him on film compared to the other 31 starters, you know, on a weekend, weekout basis, he stands out above the rest just in a way. He plays the game in a way no other center in the NFL does. No other player, you know, to some respects, but more so center. He's just, he's such a physical force. in the middle of that line. And he provides such a valuable presence, I think, in past protection. Not a lot of guys want to spin back inside or loop back inside or blitz late into either side of those agaps because they know Jensen is seriously, he's going to, he's going to give them

everything he has and he's going to get under their skin. He's going to piss him off and he's going to get him out of their game. He's done that many times to many players. And he always kind of keeps a, you know, kind of just. enough of a cool head to not really get a lot of flags. I mean, and, you know, that's kind of the mental and physical side of it, but technique-wise, I think he's very good as well. And he could do a lot of things in the run game that I don't think it appreciated enough. He can pull, he can lead, he can block in space. He can do all that stuff as well. Because if, you know, when, if people

have watched him when he was with the Ravens, he was more so just an athletic guy out there who was just really nasty as well, but he was very athletic. And I still think he has that. part to his game as well on top of having that physical presence. He's also started at two positions this year. He bumped over to left guard when Marpet was out for a game. So he's just provided them with so much value, I think. And I think he's certainly a first team guy for me. One of the guys I feel strongest about on any of these lists. The way they use him as that floater in pass protection sometimes, too, where he's able to pick guys off coming off the edge because he's uncovered. Like a guy that plays with his sort of edge doing that is it leads to some collisions. Let's just say that,

which is really fun. Do you hate watching their running game? Because I hate watching their running game. They create no angles for their guys. It's just line up, double teams, let the muck kind of figure itself out. It is not fun to watch at all. I would love to see this collection of offensive linemen in a different sort of scheme, which you could probably say the same thing about their skill position players at this point. They have so much talent. And, you know, it shines through on the offensive line the same way it does with the past catchers. I would just love to see them in an offense that makes it 10% easier for them and what they could do with it. Yeah, I talk about this with some other buddies as well.

It's frustrating to watch. I mean, I would love to see them get these guys in space more and run some pinpole and some counters and stuff like that because Jensen is good in space. Mark Pet is good in space. I'd love to see Worf's get out there a little bit more. We'll get to that, I assume. Yeah, we will very shortly. So, yeah, I agree with you on the running game for sure. All right.

First team, right tackle. Is it Tristan Worf's? Yes. It is for me as well. Are you surprised he has been this good this quickly? Oh, yeah. Yeah, very much. Very much so.

Yeah. You know, I think, I guess we couldn't, you know, we shouldn't be too surprised considering his profile coming out, you know, the athletic marvel that he is. you know, in terms of combine stuff, that's one thing. But then to be coming from the Iowa football program where you're going to get as good of offensive line training as there as you will as anywhere in the country in terms of fundamentals, technique, you know, those type of things. The core principles of the position he has been trained in at the highest level, you know,

at the college level for, you know, three, four years, whatever he was in college. So to have those two things married together, I mean, I felt very good about him coming out because of that. He had a little bit of stuff in his past set at college where it looked like he was a little laborous coming out of his stance. And it was kind of odd because then he tested like an absolute freak. But it just seems like he had a little tweak. You know, maybe I don't know the background of it, but he definitely fixed it. And he's more explosive out of his stance and hit more of that, I think. athleticism is shining through. And I think how strong he is. It's unbelievable.

It's the key part of his game. His play strength or functional strength is just outrageous for a rookie. And it allows him to recover from a lot of compromising positions. And I mean, balance is what strikes me is it's his ability to get back on balance and then turn that balance into power. When guys bull rush him, his ability to get through his hips and to just sink down and about getting his feet back under him in efficient ways, it just shouldn't look like that for a first year player. Especially in a vertical passing offense like this one is. He has been so, so good.

It has been so much fun to watch. He hasn't missed a snap either. So, I mean, just everything that you could want from an offensive tackle this season, I think you've seen from him. He can move people in the run game as well. He's just, it's incredible to see. and then right tackle this year.

There's no Lane Johnson. There's no Mitchell Schwartz. So, you know, those two guys not in the conversation also makes it a little easier to pick him as well. Who did you go to your second team? I just gave it to Ramcheck out of respect. Yeah, it's Ramcheck for me as well. You know, he's a guy who's been dinged up this year. Yep, exactly.

He's not at his best, but he's still really good. Yeah, yeah. You could definitely see that he's dinged up compared to last year, but he still played 96% of snaps. He hasn't missed a game. He's still out there and he's still playing at a high level. I didn't really think of another guy that could have taken this spot. Maybe Taylor Moten, I thought that he at least deserved a mention because he's been pretty reliable as well.

But I don't think he can do what Ramchek can do, especially as a past protector. So, yeah. Same like it has been for right guards. Weird year for right tackles. Injuries, a lot of the guys that have been mainstays, not being there and not playing. I think it's made it a little more fluid. and then it would be in a typical year. All right, let's get to defensive line.

Interior defensive linemen, first team. I'm wondering who you have here is your first guy. I mean, there's obviously no other possible choice here except Aaron Donald. You know, the best player in football, he has been the best player in football for three, four years now. It's just he's the most impactful defensive lineman in the game today. he could do it all, play from any alignment. He's just, he's a wizard. He's, he's, he's the guy for sure there.

Him and, you know, there's an edge rusher as well that I think is a no-brainer. But my other interior guy to stick on this is DeForest Buckner. I was so back and forth. I was so back and forth. Let me hear your DeForest Buckner argument and then I'll give you my other first team guy. I mean, Buckner's been the same guy I think this year that he's been since 2017 when I first really dug into his game. I watched every snap of every defensive tackle for Bleacher report that year, and I really got familiar with the league. And he's a guy who I had never watched prior to that season,

but watching his snaps, I was just in awe of the physical freak that he is. The arm length that he has, the hands size. There's no one like him in the NFL. He is a unique player. He's just, he's such a freak, like physically. I mean, just like I said, the arm like, the hand size. And then the athletic ability. And then the way that he uses his hands as well is just he's very precise with the placement of his hands as well. And that's really what I think allows all those gifts to, you know, really, you know, be maximized. But, you know, I think he's the same guy.

His change of direction ability, too, the way he can hop in and out of gaps for a guy that's 6-6, 6-7 is really special. I mean, a lot of those guys that are COD, like 6'5 guys like Leonard Floyd used to be or some of those guys that like they're really good twisters and things but for him to be that tall and be able to win the edge like he does i mean it's there are so many aspects of his game that don't make sense when you consider the entire package of traits together yeah he he's definitely a unique player um and just what he's done in indy his impact there i think is easier to see because of the way their defense is structured and they don't have as deep of a defensive line as you know

he was in or a part of in San Francisco. And, you know, just his presence on the field is always going to take the center with him most of the time. And that's just always going to leave the opposite side, obviously manned up against a guard and a tackle. So he just takes up so much attention of the past protection on a given play. So that's, you know, part of his impact as well. Think about how many plays this season where you've seen DeNico Atre one on one, with the right guard because Buckner takes the center with him the other way. They've had so many sacks like that this season.

And I just think that he has been somebody that makes everybody on that defense better. And I think those sorts of considerations matter here. That being said, he is on the second team for me. I have Chris Jones on my, on my, the first team. I just think that right now, he is the guy after Aaron Donald that can take over a game. I think Buckner has been consistently productive. this year. If you look at it, Buckner is a decent amount of pressures.

But Jones has 60 second in the NFL among interior defensive linemen, and it looks that way. You look at some of the stuff he was doing to Lidstrom last week, who's been pretty good. He's been like pretty good this year at times. When you can just make a starting quality offensive guard look the way that Chris Jones did against the Falcons on Sunday, there's only one of the guy in the league that can do that to good players, in my opinion, and it's Aaron Donald. I just think he can take over a game with the ways that he can rush the passer. You can't set him like you can other guards.

Because if you try to quick set him like you do with other guys, he's going to get his hands on you. And if you try to take a deeper set, he's just going to overpower you. Like he just, there's no answer to the stuff he can do. And I just think that in terms of game wrecking ability, he is number two for me right now after Donald. Oh, yeah. I mean, I agree with pretty much everything you're saying. Purely as a pass rusher, he is right there with me, for me, for that number two spot with Buckner. You know, I'd probably lean Jones if you're talking just in a vacuum.

As a pass rusher, I'd probably lean him as well. I think what he can do with his hands and... The hand quickness is stupid. It is unbelievable how he just, the way he flashes them and it's unbelievable. It's so much fun to watch. All right. Who's your other second team guy? My other second team guy is Grady Jerry.

So you love Grady Jarrett. I should have known this was going to just be chalk for you. You love Grady Jared. All right. Make your Grady Jared case. Your Grady Jarrett is so freaking good, man. I mean, people underrate him so much. And so the thing about him is he's not the pass rusher that these other guys are. And you know, I'll give you that for sure. I think he's a good pass rusher. You know, he's not a liability by any means. He's a good guy that you can have out there. But he is so dominant versus the run that it's just his natural leverage, his quickness, and I think how smart he is, his ability to recognize blocking concepts and be one step ahead of the run game, it's just unreal how often he lives in the backfield. He's just one of those guys that,

aside from Aaron Donald, I don't think anybody is in the backfield as often as he is. And I think that matters. He's just a disruptive presence. on the interior and he's playing for a bad team and he's been playing for a bad team for you know a little while now he doesn't have any help up front he has no help and he has it for years and i think he doesn't have a frank clark he doesn't have a just in houston you know he doesn't have anybody like that they thought dante fowler could be that he's not been good at all this year uh so i mean he's doing it himself he's a one-man wrecking ball i think you know just on the field and if you don't get quite as much as a pass rusher, but, you know, the other two downs, you get a guy who's absolutely just, you know, creating chaos.

I mean, to me, that's very valuable. And I think he's just, you know, he's deserving of a mention here. I think I don't think it's that far fetch. I think that's totally fair. He did not make it for me because if we're talking chaos creators, I had Stefan to do it on my second team. And the reason that I did this, and I think you could have put Cam Hayward there if you wanted to. Hayward has been great again. So the reason I had to it, he has 10 sacks, he has 68 pressures, which is fourth in the NFL, at any position.

And he's a freelancer. We know that. There are going to be some plays where he's totally out of position where they get gashed as a result of it. He's not a consistent presence in the run game the way that Cam Hayward is. But the reason that I think that, the reason I like that, especially now, is that without Dupree, I think they need somebody who can fuck shit up. I think they need somebody who is just going to make plays in that high variance way that Dupree used to. And him not being there, it's made that element of two-its game even more important to what they do up front. And I thought he was phenomenal last year before he got hurt.

I think he's been really good again this year. I just love guys who are making high-impact sorts of plays. And he's doing that this year. I think he has double-digit tackles for loss as well. He's been a really, really good player all season. And I just think this is the year that he deserves some recognition. Totally fair. I also considered Leonard Williams as well.

I think he's had a very underrated year. I went back and watched a lot of him this morning. And I tried to catch up on him a little bit. And he almost snuck in here. I mean, him, Hayward, and Jared, those were my three guys that I think you, you know, I don't feel super strongly about Jared as the fourth guy over those two. I think you could kind of put him in there. And then to it, I love that pick.

and I agree with what you said about him. I think he's a very fun, you know, dynamic player. All right. First team, Edge. I think this can be pretty quick. Yeah, Miles Garrett and T.J. Watt for me were the top two. I mean, I know Watt's numbers this year are unreal and he's, he has a case for being the best guy. I think Garrett is head and shoulders better than T.J. Watt.

I mean, he's missed time, you know, he's played two less games. You know, he has, he's played 70% of the snaps. Watts played 89% of the snaps. But Miles Garrett, I think he's on Aaron Donald's level, honestly. I mean, when you're maybe not quite there because he hasn't done it, you know, as long. But when you roll out these guys on the field and then you get their best, I think Miles Garrett's best is by far better than anybody else that you could put out there off the edge in the game. I mean, what he's done this year, I think has been just unreal.

I know it doesn't show up in the pressures, but I mean, every one of his sacks are legit, like high quality sacks, me watching them, you know, all this year. And I just think his ability to take over and beat anyone at any time is unmatched. So for me, Miles Garrett has to be there. And then T.J. Watt, he's just been so consistently good the whole year. And he's very good against the run as well. And he's just an all around stud. I think those two guys are, you know, kind of no-brainers. I think so too. I think that T.J. Watt has been the better player this year. I wouldn't be surprised just because of production, him being on the field, all of that stuff.

I wouldn't be surprised if T.J. Watt was the defense player of the year. I think he, because people are tired of Aaron Donald and that sort of thing happens, you can give the Donald any year. I think Watt absolutely could get it. I think that Garrett is the guy you want to build around now. Garrett is the edge rusher you would pick to build your team around. His sack he had against Laramie Tonsol is one of the most impressive sacks you'll see by a player in the league ever. I mean, just... Oh, yeah, this is unreal. He's a 270-pound guy who can bend like Von Miller,

and it just doesn't make any sense. He has been unlocked this year. He has ascended to a different place. Second team, I think, is much more interesting. There are a ton of different directions you could go with this. I am curious, who are your two second team guys? I was a Darius Smith. Love it.

I think he deserves it based on what he did last year. I love him so much. Oh, man. I think eight of his sacks are all rushing over the guard. I think he has 11 or 12, but I think eight of them are rushing over the guard. So he's a very unique edge rusher. He's, I think his position really should be spinner because that's really what he is. He just kind of moves around and then picks a guard to pick on.

And that's how he, you know, gets most of his production. So he's a much better interior rusher, but he's still kind of that chest piece guy. You can move around and he can, you know, kind of take over. over and really be that guy that you can stick on a guard and he'll make life miserable for, you know, for that guy for the whole game. So a guy that is, if you were stacking up the guys who'd be the least fun to play against for a 60-minute football game in the league, he'd be in the top five among defensive players. Aaron Donald will be number one.

I think Miles Garrett would probably be number two. I think Sadaria Smith just because of the pure physicality. When David Bactiari was on the show, he talked about how, as a young player, especially. There are guys in the league who are going to test whether you want to play from the first series of the game. And Everson Griffin was like that. Zadarius Smith is like that. He is going to see right away whether or not you want any part of this for four straight quarters. And I just love guys who play like that. Oh, yeah. And he's good with his hands as well. He has really powerful, strong hands that he does a nice job of swatting away the hands of guards.

So if guards aren't good with their hands, they're going to get eaten up by him. then he also has that power element. And I remember Joe Thomas talking about it on a show with somebody where he said that, you know, rushers that gave him trouble oftentimes were guys what what he called a heavy head. Yeah. Meaning that they're going to literally like when they bull rush, they're going to, I mean, this is kind of an ugly part of the game, but it's real. On a bull rush when they come in, they're going to try to stick their face mask in yours. And just that's part of the way that they're able to test if you really want to play. Exactly. You know. And Zadarius does that.

And like it really rattles a lot of guys, I think. So he's valuable in that sense. And who's your other one? The next guy for me, I went with Khalil Mack. You know, I know that he hasn't, he doesn't have the sack numbers this year. And he's not affecting the quarterback as much. I know he's really high in hurries. But I just think when you're talking all around edge rushers this year,

I still think he's one of the two or three best in the league. and he's obviously very consistent in terms of his availability, plays all the snaps and all that stuff or a lot of the snaps. But, you know, when you're looking versus the run versus the pass and the amount of tension that he takes up, since I've been watching, you know, the trenches the last few years, I don't think there's one edge rusher in the league that really takes up more attention than Khalil Mack.

He has so much respect. You can see it on the field. The way that guys, the way that protection schemes are designed to stop him, it's just it's incredible how much uh you know he frees up other guys to to you know have isolated matchups and all that stuff so i think the numbers don't do his do him justice he isn't you know quite at the level that he was when he first got to chicago but i still think he's excellent and uh you know there's other guys that i thought about here i mean you can certainly make the case for some other guys and you know i i almost picked a couple others i love calil mac off he was my first guy off

I completely agree with everything that you said. My second team guys are probably a little controversial. I have Joey Bosa. And I know he's missed some time. But I think he has been the right there with Garrett and Watt on a per play basis when you talk about pass rushing impact. I think he is the best pure pass rusher in the NFL when it comes to the intricacies of the position. His ability to use his hands, understand leverage.

the way he does it is the way that you would teach every single guy to do it. And he's been impactful. He has been the most impactful and most disruptive edge rusher in the league on a per snap basis, according to PFF. I know he's missed some time, but he's still seventh in total pressures. He's still tied for third for tackles for loss with 15. He is still that good. And even in the aggregate, he's made this sort of impact that would make him worthy of this consideration, even if he's missed some time. That's how good he's been.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I totally agree with everything you're saying. I'm huge Joey Bosa fan. I think him and Miles Garrett are the two best head rushers in the league. And if you're just saying what, like, their ceiling and, you know, them at their best, I think those are the two best guys. But just for this season in particular, I think the missed time, it just like, I don't

know why I'm such a stickler on that, but I think when you're- completely understand why you are. If you're splitting hairs, it's a good thing to defer to. I just, when I went back and I watched today, because I was, I was kicking around some other guys. And I was like, let me go back and watch a couple of Joey Bosa games. I did it this morning. And I watched the Buffalo game again.

And I was like, how can this guy not be on here? Like, it doesn't matter that he's missed a bunch of games. Like, that's the best defensive game I've seen a guy have the entire season is the game he had against a really good bills team. So I just think that he deserves to be on there. And my other guy, I have Carl Lawson. Oh, I love it. So I just think that if you look at the numbers, he's ninth in the NFL and pressures,

which doesn't seem that great, but on a per snap basis, he's one of the most impactful pass rushers in the league. And I think if I'm picking all the guys in the NFL, if I were to pick my favorite pass rusher, I think it's Carl Lawson. That's so awesome. I just love players of that style.

He's very Duverville-ish to me. They have the same body type, the ways they use left. That little stab bull rush that he has, That's like, it's, it's kind of like a long arm, but he does it in a more compact way. It's like hard to explain. But that and then the little rip he has off of it, I think outside of Bosa, he has my favorite pass rush plans of any player in the NFL right now. I just absolutely love watching him play.

And he's been hurt the last couple years. He's been this good on a per snap level on the probably last two seasons, but he's been hurt. And watching him for a full season this year. I think you've really gotten a window into just how special he is as a past rusher. Yeah, I totally agree. I just did an article on the most underrated edge rushers in the league. He was number one. And, you know, for the reasons that you mentioned, you know, he has that inside stab,

long arm move, but he has a chop that he uses and it's vicious. I mean, he really chops guys outside hands hard. And you could see on tape, like Villanueva really gets it a lot from him, where he hits him on that forearm. a couple times and then you see Villanueva later in the game just be real cautious. He doesn't want it. Yeah. Yeah. And that opens him up to all kinds of stuff. So yeah, I really like Carl Lawson, man. I mean, he's, he was the guy I thought about most putting ahead of Colomac here.

Carl Lawson plays for the Bengals, by the way. It's just if there's anybody out there who doesn't know who Carl Lawson is. Carl Lawson plays for the Bengals. Who are your guys that just missed it for you? Well, I mean, for defensive line, Carl Lawson and Matt. those two were my last two that I was coming up with for edge rusher. So Bosa, like I said, I agree with you on everything, but just the time thing is why I eliminated him. Defensive tackle we talked about for Jarrett. It was Cam Hayward and Leonard Williams.

Those are my two guys that I thought were, you know, you could slide in there and I wouldn't even, you know, wink and I. So for defense, I think those are the three or four guys that I really had to go back on this morning and watch and just kind of figure out which way to go. My last guy that I want to mention is Asan Rack, because I, even though he's not on, his past rush he snaps, you know, he doesn't do it as consistently. He's a much different player than a lot of these guys. But I just wanted to mention him in some way because I think he's had a really special

season. And the way he's been on leash within that defense, they, it's been a really fun defense to watch because they clearly know that they can't line up and just play traditional defense because they don't have the bodies to do it. So they've unleashed all of these hybrid players in these really fascinating ways. And he's the perfect example of that. And the havoc that he's created as a pass rusher, he's got six force fumble. He's got 13 sacks.

Even if he's not a full-time edge rusher, the overall production that he's had this season is incredible. I mean, he has been one of the most dynamic defensive players in the league, even with the kind of relatively few pass-rushing snaps that he's been given. So he's in there for me. And then the other guy I wanted to mention, because I just think he is destined to be a superstar. Brian Burns.

Is Brian Burns. Yes. I think he is going to be a truly special player in the league for a long time. Like when you watch him play against like Bakhtiari, like during that game, you watch some of those battles. It's a really fun back and forth between two guys that I think are going to be around for a while and playing at a really high level for a long time. I don't think he's quite there yet.

But I wouldn't be surprised at all if next year, Brian Burns was a first team all pro sort of player. Yeah, I agree. He reminds me, I know he's been thrown around when he came out of the draft, but, I mean, you do see a little bit of shades of Vaughn Miller with his game. But he's so tall.

I just didn't expect him to be able to bend at that height. It's you just don't see that very often. Yeah, he's like a lanky or Vaughn. And, I mean, yeah, he's special. Think about that. Think about Von Miller with length as a comp for a player. That's insane. I know and I hate comparing like, you know, guys to like all time grates like that,

but I think it's warranted, especially what he's done this year and that move that he has, that ghost technique where, you know, he basically comes in and then fakes like he's going to go, you know, head up and then dips at the last second. I mean, that move is just, you know, I haven't seen anybody do it to the level that he's doing it since Vaughn. So for him to be able to have that, then he has a spin move off of that. And he also, this year is why I've been. become such a big fan of his game is his ability to convert speed to power. I mean, he has a rep.

I think it was Rick Wagner that he put on his back. And Wagner didn't even trip or anything. He just literally got planted on his back by Burns his power. And if he starts developing that power, I mean, he's going to be probably the best ed rusher in the league or one of the three or four next year. The guy being able to do that ghost move and how low his shoulder gets to the ground at that height and the spin. Those sorts of moves, the ones you're talking about, are designed for rushers

who are like six to. Those are smaller change of direction rush guys, not six foot five levers type of players that are able to do what he can. There's no one in the league that moves like him right now. It's really special.

Yeah, that's a good one. I'm glad you mentioned it. All right, buddy. That's all we got. You and I could go about this for hours. We have in the past privately. So we are not going to subject people to that. I sincerely appreciate you doing this.

Please go check out Brandon's Twitter. If you do not follow him, it's Brandon Thorne, NFL. Please subscribe to the Trench Warfare newsletter. I read all of them. I get to see some of them before other people do. I feel very privileged about that. It's fantastic work. It is the type of insight you will not get anywhere else.

So please go check that out. Give a little late Christmas present to yourself for someone else. Brandon, thanks so much for the time, buddy. I really appreciate it. All right, man. Appreciate you having me. So our next group, I didn't know, exactly how to separate it.

I didn't know whether put the linebackers with the D.Bs or with the defensive linemen. We ended up putting them with the D.Bs. And I am very excited to talk about this with Darius Butler, who definitely has some history here as an eight-year NFL cornerback. How you doing, man? I'm doing good, man. I'm doing good about yourself, right? I'm doing well. And also the host of the Man to Man Podcast with Antoine Bithay. He does everything DB on YouTube. You can follow him at Darius J. Butler on Twitter. I highly recommend that.

I appreciate that. So let's get into this. I told you this before the show. this is the group of positions I feel the least confident about. Because a lot of the time, defensive back production is not necessarily in line with defensive back quality. A lot of the guys that are the best in the world at these particular spots, what they do goes unnoticed because teams aren't throwing at them.

So it can be a hard position to evaluate when you don't know exactly what you're watching or the structure, everything else. But I'm going to do my best. So let's start with cornerback. and your first team corners, outside corners that you had? Oh, man, you know, the first one was easy. Zaving Howard, you know, he's been playing. He's been in Top Dog from Wire to Wire.

Not only his lockdown ability, but his ball production has been through the roof this year. Nine picks. Seems like he gets won almost every game. And if he can crack at 10, if he can get double digits, he'll be the first got to do it. And 13 years since one of my former teammates in Turner, Carmardi, did it back in 07. So X-Hauer is definitely in there. And then when you get the second guy on that first team, it's tough, man. So many guys have had outstanding years.

James Bradbury, when he's done in New York Giants, Patrick Graham, his first year of the defensive coordinator. You got Jared Alexander and Green Bay. You got Marlon Humphrey who plays outside and inside. But I'm going to give the slight edge to Trey White. Trey White and Buffalo. He'll be my second first team, Quentin. So Trey Wright and X, Howard would be my two first team guys at the cornerback position.

Trey White seems like a guy, you know, like you have comedians, comedian when you're somebody who does it. And because you know it so well, you appreciate it. It feels like Tredavius White is the sort of guy that other defensive backs really appreciate because technique-wise, the way he breaks on the ball and all of that stuff. He just does the position the right way. Yeah, he does. And this is another guy that mentioned to. Jacey Jackson had a pretty good year in New England as well. But yeah, he does everything the right way comes.

up and tackle. And they don't put, they don't put them in a lot of, you know, super stressful situations where he's a man to man. He's in the island. He's following guys, you know, around, you know, outside, inside. Like some of the other guys on this list, you know, have done. And some other guys may have ranked a guy hired than that because of that. But, you know, Trey White, he asks, he does exactly what his team and his D coordinator to ask him to do. He does it at a very, very high level, not only last year, but, you know, he rolled his year from last year right into this year. So he had to build my first team. I had Xavier and Howard as well. Oh yeah. It's crazy when you watch it. I went back and watched a little

bit of it today and I tweeted a clip of a play he had against the Bengals. The amount of times he's out on an island against guys and the amount of space they put him in alone, it makes me physically anxious when I watch it because it's so, it's such a high wire act and what they asked him to do. And there was a play he made, a pick he made against Cincinnati, where he's a in the slot against Tyler Boyd, and they run just a little pick where Boyd runs a slot fade. And he should have gotten picked off. Very, very, very tough route, number one. By structure, that should be open.

When they lined up, I'm sure they're thinking, we got this. This is a home run. He somehow backed up around the pick, kept moving full speed, didn't slow down, stuck with Tyler Boyd the entire way down the sideline and picked the ball off. It's just the sort of player, like, there are three or four guys in the world that can do that consistent. Yeah. And he is one of those guys. Elite, man, elite. And, you know, they went outside Byron Jones this year,

paid him a ton of money at the quarterback position, went and used one of their first round picks, you know, on another quarterback at Auburn. So, you know, for some guys, you know, that can be like, hey, man, you know, these guys are trying to replace me. You know, maybe you've seen it happen at the quarterback position around the league. And he just took it as, you know, hey, you know, I'm going to not only step up and play well, but I'm going to play outstanding. And now he's been one of the best defense players in the league this year.

It's funny because sometimes when guys get a lot of picks, there are some fluky plays where there's a tip ball here and there where it's a product of circumstances. Most of his interceptions are legit. And even beyond that, he has 19 passes defense this year, which is the highest in the league by a lot. So he is coming by these numbers very honestly. He's been as good as they would indicate. I had Jalen Ramsey as my second team corner just because of all the things they do with him

in L.A. They use him as a queen on the chess board and how they move him in. side in certain packages and they use him manned up on other guys outside and others. Why isn't he up there for you? Is there just something about his game and the way they use him? You just like other guys better? No, you know, I love Jalen Ramsey's game. Very, very physical.

You know, the highest paid corner in the league for a reason. He matched up with some guys. You saw him, you know, he matched up with a guy like D.K. Can follow him all around the field. Bob Staley moved him inside a lot. So he placed him inside, place him outside, allowed the other D.Bs on that team to play in, you know, positions that they're most comfortable in. I feel like he kind of stepped up his physicality this year.

And he's always been a physical guy. I played some safety in college. I love Jalen's game, man. It's just, like I said, it's so hard to make these lists and to, you know, put a guy first team, second team, because all these guys are deserving to be in, in one of those high spots. But Jalen is another guy, you know, who could be, you know, I couldn't argue if you put them, you know, as your first or second corner.

I'm writing about the Rams defense for tomorrow and I actually talk to Brandon Staley about a lot of the things that they do. And he told me that there are times where when they're constructing coverages, he'll start with Jalen and work backwards. Which I think that's the biggest compliment. It's good coaching. Yeah, exactly.

And they understand how to use him, but they really do rely on him as a pillar of a lot of their cover structures and things like that, which I think really says a lot about him. My second team guys, I had James Bradbury too. I think he's been fantastic. Again, just one of those guys.

They put him on the number one receiver. He's moved around with different people. And he's just been so much better than I anticipated him being in that system. I think they've really gotten a lot out of several defensive players on that team. I think Patrick Graham's done a great job. And the other guy I had was Jason Verrett.

I just love watching him. I love watching him play. I'm so glad he's healthy. I just think that his game he had against DeAndre Hopkins on Saturday, just running routes for him, playing the ball in certain spots where that's a touchdown 99 times out of 100 for Hopkins. And Verret at his best, I've always thought,

was such a special player. and we've really gotten to see that all season. Very, very special player. From the time he came in the league, out of TCU, played at a high level. And then he just got, you know, that string of injuries back to back to back years. He felt so terrible for him.

But, you know, anybody has been around the game and pays attention to defensive back play, knows, you know, healthy Jason Verrett is tough to be. And so it's been, it's been a pleasure to be able to watch and play football at a high level again, being healthy for pretty much all year. And like you said, his last outing versus DHOP, you know, he showed,

while he's, you know, been one of the best since he's been in the league. So once again, another guy you can't really argue against. He just seems so patient. That's what really strikes me when I watch him. When you're watching guys that are really good off the line of skirmish, really nice moves, really nice releases, he just doesn't even move.

He does not react to certain things that he lets, he makes you show what you're going to do before he reacts in a way that I think is really difficult to do for defensive backs. Yeah, he's got a trust his technique. It's so important to be able to trust you. technique, especially at that line and scrimmage. A lot of routes, especially in man coverage, are one and lost, you know, within that first five yards.

You know, he does one of the better jobs in the league at, you know, being patient, trusting this technique, staying square, getting hands on and finishing. So let's go to safety. Who are your two first team safeties? Oh, now this first guy was kind of, I want, actually he's been getting more. I've been hearing his name more and more, but his team is so bad. So he probably won't make it off a list. Jesse Bates out in Cincinnati, man.

He covers ground. Like he does, you know, one of the terms you hear as when you talk about safety, anybody that's around football is, hey, I need a guy that can get off the hash. And he is the epitome of that covers, covers ground back there, shows up with an attitude. So he would be my first team free safety. And then for the strong safety, it got to be Thai Matthew. He kind of plays all over the field.

You know, he plays in the slot. He plays, you know, he plays safety position, obviously both safety positions. But what he brings to the defense, not only on the field, but in the locker room and in the huddle is tremendous. And he's had a lot of ball production this year as well. So Todd Matthew and Jesse Bates will be my top two guys. I had Tyler Matthew as my second team strong safety. So he's on there for me. Jesse Bates' first team, in my opinion, because of how rare his ball production has been at that position.

He has 15 passes defense as a center field free safety. If you look at most of the other guys in that list, it's a lot of corners, a lot of guys are getting the ball thrown at them. His ability to cover ground and get around the ball from the depth he plays at is rare. He's making Earl Thomas single high safety plays outside the numbers. Like those are Earl Thomas type plays.

There was a play against the Steelers, the first game they played this year, where he was literally lined up right in the middle of the field. And he made a play on a ball down the right side line outside the numbers and broke it up. Like that is really, really difficult to do. And he does that stuff regularly. That's routine for him. He does a great job getting keys off a quarterback.

And I would be sure, Mom, you know, I haven't had the opportunity to speak to him, but I'm sure he does a great job of studying, you know, the quarterbacks that he's going to play against and how they like to throw a deep ball. Some quarterbacks are, you know, kind of half-fielry guys, some quarterbacks to full full field read a guy like big ben i remember playing against him he would give your you know hard stare down to the left and then just come right and just let it go so i'm sure he does he has great study habits um because you can't just be out there reacting and get 15 you know past defense as the center field it just doesn't happen that way so his uh study habits show up on Sundays

it's so funny that you say that because it was against rothusberger and you could tell that ben understood that he needed to put the ball on a line to beat to beat Bates getting over there. So he threw it as like a one level ball, even though it was a deep ball. And he still got over there to make the play. It was a bonkers play. So my other first team guy is Mickey Fitzpatrick. I just think that the way they use him is so unique. And the way they drop him down into that robber role so consistently and allow him to just make plays.

Like they just give him so much freedom to be that freelancer in. the middle of the defense to look for the ball to be just a playmaker in a way that a few other safeties in the league get the wiggle room to do. And I just think it really gives such a explosive, like volatile element to their defense. It's really, really helpful. Exactly. Yeah, Pittsburgh has done a great job getting the most out of him since they made that trade. You know, they gave a first round of him for him. And it looks like a great trade up to this point. And he's been outstanding. He was the first, it was an all pro last year. She'll be an R. Pro again this year, flies around, make plays, makes plays.

And, you know, he, in Miami early on, they were trying to make him a jack-a-ball trades before he really mastered our positioning. Now you see him kind of mastering kind of who he is in the NFL. And I'm sure you'll just, you know, continue to see his role expand on that defense. How hard, what is difficult about that role? When they have you play that robber spot, what are the things you have to be watching and what are the traits that makes someone good at playing that specific type of safety? You know what?

It's not, if I have one thing to do with the safety, it will be that, you know, Ben and Robert. And the thing about doing that when they trust you to do that is you have to have great instincts. Yeah. You have to have great instincts. You have to have a great feel for the game, you know, to not only know where things are coming,

but sometimes, you know, make it look like you don't know. Or, you know, and it's been some plays like the pick he had against Baker Mayfield. He just, you know, he made no bones of body. He just went right there. Sometimes some quarterbacks are thrown right in between your number. members. But you got to have great instincts. And that's what he has coming into the league and you've just seen that grow. And it's on coaching. Once again, I think there's been a great job of coaching and saying, hey, this is our guy to do that. And he does a great job at it.

Who are your second team, guys? I got Buda Baker on there. Buda Baker is a guy who is pure productivity since day one. He flies around. He sets the tone. Him and Jamal Adams remind me a lot of each other. Jamal Adams is, in my opinion, is a better pass thrusher, but, you know, Buddha is far off. But, you know, Buddha does a great job. He can cover, he can cover tight ends. He can play the deep part of the field. He can blitz. He's a monster in a run game. And he came on the pot early this year. So I love, I love, I love Budapaker, man. I love him. Not an accident that David Bakhtiari was my second team left tackle after he came on the podcast earlier this year. So it's, we're easy. We're easy to figure out.

Got it's pretty easy. And then Minka was. was my other. Awesome. Perfect. Yeah. My second guy was John Johnson, the third, because I just, I love. And again, I'm writing about the Rams defense for tomorrow. And one of the really interesting things that Staley told me about was just, and you

could see it when you watch them, they play more too high safeties than anybody in the league. That's their base way they line up is they line up in too high and then they go to different things out of it. They play a lot of cover three and things like that, but they line up the same way. And that puts a lot on your safety. because they have to be a part of the run game and they have to rotate late and everything else. It's just a lot of mental and physical demands to put on that position. And you have to be really smart, I think, to play that position well in that system.

And he is. I mean, there are a couple of different plays. He had a pass breakup against Tampa Bay specifically where they were playing cover three and he was a centerfield safety. And he did an incredible job of not only understanding the route distribution, but watching Brady's eyes to have just a late breakup against Grasco over the middle of the field. And to do both of those things at the same time, which they ask their guys to do, is so difficult. And I just think he's been

really comfortable in a very hard role to play in his first season in that defense. And it's been really impressive to watch. Yeah, he's been one of those unsung guys for some years now. And he shows up and he plays all over the field. And the thing that

that group does as a whole is they communicate so well from every corner. every, you know, and they play different positions. Sometimes jailing in the inside, sometimes outside, you know, sometimes hills in there. You know, Darius Williams has been, you know, pretty good all year. Like, they all communicate. I saw it from the first game when they played Dallas.

I actually posted a clip of them. They're playing the coverage of all with one hole. And it just is one of those coverages that, you know, on paper, it always looks good, but the execution is a lot of time isn't there. And you can just see from out of the huddle, they communicated, hey, if I get this, I'm passing it off. you're getting that. They work well with the linebacker.

So great coach, great communication. It's the passing off part of it, right? Yeah, and they do such a great job. If you don't have a feel for that, you're screwed. Because if you don't have good communication, and the Patriots, that's what they've majored in for a while.

But it's their base coverage that they've done for a decade. And all of those guys know it so well. The fact that these guys had never even played together that much, and in week one, after no off season, were able to do that in the way they could, I just think is so impressive. very, very impressive, man. Because the thing about those passoffs,

a lot of those passoffs are made on Wednesdays, Thursdays, like we know coming into the game, hey, this week, you know, this is the guy we're cutting. It's the guy that's going to be the slot away from the running back, or it's going to be, you know, somebody coming from the bunch. Or it's going to be number 17 this week. You know, 17 comes this week.

That's the guy we're cutting. So just having that communication, everybody been on the same page and, you know, everybody playing fast. You can tell Johnson is a page. a big, big role in that. Let's go to the flex. The flex position is hard to define.

It's not defined. I don't know exactly how to treat it. The way that I've done it over the last couple years is I've either done slot corners because I do think it's its own separate position or I've done somebody who is kind of positionless. So who are, let's do just you first. Who is your first team flex player?

Man, you know, I love and I've been a huge fan of Kenny Moore for some years. He's not my second player. Yeah, he's a guy once. again who does a lot of things for that defense. Obviously starts when an out of the side, but comes and plays that slot defender role. And a slot defender role, you know,

it has evolved even from the time when I was playing. I just saw it evolve and become so, so much more important year in and year out for every team, especially a zone-based team like, you know, the Colts play, you know, because you got to be super involved in the run game, got to be involved in the past game. Sometimes it's going to blitz you. And he does a great job at all three of them.

And then his ball production this year, Obviously, everybody saw the highlight one hand in reception against the Raiders. But the play he made the week before that against Brandon Cooks was probably just as impressive. You know, kind of knocked them out and turf and took the ball the way. So Kenny Moore would be my first guy on that flex position. He also had a force fumble in that Raider game a little bit later. He's just always around the ball making stuff happen. So when you're a slot corner in that zone system, how do you fit into the running game?

Like, how is that different than if you were a slot corner in a heavy, man-to-man defense. Well, man-to-man, you know, man-to-man, or even if you're in a, you know, kind of like a fire zone, you know, you're, your secondary run, you know, run help. So if you're a guy blocks and gets there, crack block, you got to replace, you got to get involved. But once we call kind of that too high shell, you know, that nickel is, you're essentially a linebacker.

And that, you know, your receiver is split out. So you kind of always caught in between a rock and a hard place. So Kenny does a great job. And a lot of guys, Mike Hilton is another guy out of Pittsburgh that I love. C.GJ out in New Orleans, who is kind of turning into a superstar in that slot position. Callahan, you know, you got a lot of guys who do it well. But Kenny's at the top of that list for me. It's so fun to watch him understand the structure of the defense and how he fits into it.

He has been playing in his zone defense for long enough. He has a really good feel for where his help is. There were a couple different players I watched. He had past breakups on this year where, they had only a attached tight end to his side. So he's essentially playing right off that attached tight end. And they tried to use that as a matchup against him, where they're doing in breaking routes because he has outside leverage in that spot.

And he had such a good feel for how much space he needed to give, when to break on the ball. There was one against Hawkinson and then one, I can't remember exactly the other team they did. Oh, yeah. It's the same sort of hit him to stick. And it was just, again, just such a guy who understands, I know exactly where I need to be, where my help is,

how I fit within the defense. And that combined with his playmaking traits, he's just a really fun player. Who is your second team guy? My second team guy was Chansy Gardner Johnson out of New Orleans. And like I said, and he's a bigger slot defender. You know, usually those guys are smaller, but he's big. He can play in a run game, but he does a great job matching up with receivers,

matched up with tight ends. So I can go with either him. I love Mike Hilton out in Pittsburgh as well, what he does coming off the edge and he makes some splash plays here and there too but I would have to go with CGJ out in New Orleans. Are slack corners and especially

guys like Hilton and even CGJ and Canymore, they're physical. They seem to have a different attitude than guys that play on the outside. Do you think that guys that play that position well are just wired a little bit differently than like big time outside cover corners? You know what? It's different, but you got to be

you're coming in for a linebacker, so you've got to kind of have a little bit of linebacker mentality in you. And obviously, you know, Kenny Moore is an undersized guy. But it's always been about, you know, the fight in the dog for him. And, you know, he shows up and he scraps week in and week out. And, you know, he looks small, but these guys are tough, man. You know, Chris Harris, you know, year and a year out. He was dominant in that role.

Todd Matthew, he's excellent in that role as well. So it's a lot of guys. And slot defenders, man, I mean, they're starters. And they're more important, in my opinion, a lot of lineback. on the roster. So, you know, these guys, they should just have a position for them, you know, and all these teams, the pro-bole teams, the all-pro teams, you know, all these teams. I agree. It would just make it all so much easier if that's the way they did it. So my first team guy is Marlon Humphrey. I just think that when you watch him in man, when you watch him in man

coverage in the slot, it's crazy. Like, he is so, so good. He had to play against Jarvis Landry the last time those two teams played where they had a little stack on that side to get Landry and it just didn't matter. He just was in his hip pocket the entire time, came down on the ball, had a PBU, and he does that stuff all the time. He's just such a fun player to watch in that amount of space. And similar to what we were talking about with Xavier and Howard,

I just think that there aren't that many guys that you'd feel comfortable putting in that sort of position. He's one of them. Yeah, I mean, you can't go against Humphrey. He's been doing that for some years now going inside, going outside. And he kind of always slips to my mind at a flex position or at a slot defender position

because he is just as good on the outside. You know, he was an all pro last year as well. And what he does when it comes to his ball production, not only with interceptions, but punching the ball out. Like, I mean, Charles Tillman, obviously, you know, Peanut Tillman was, you know, the greatest in the goat when it comes to that. But, you know, fruit punch is not far behind, man, what he does and how he plays like he has a, like some type of lobster thing he got going on, man.

But the way he gets that ball out, man, it is unbelievable. It's fun how many guys like that that they've assembled for that defense. Like the fact that Peters is also a guy that's just obsessed with taking the ball away at any single moment. And having multiple guys like that in the same secondary, it makes them dangerous. Nobody wants to play this team. Nobody is going to want to play this team. It is a frightening proposition what they could possibly be during any given week if they get to the postseason, which it seems like they might. All right.

Let's get to linebackers. I had a tough time with this. I don't know why. It was just that I don't know if it was kind of a log jam or what. So who are your first team off ball linebackers? Off ball, by the way. These outside linebackers are not a part of this because they should not be. Yeah.

First team off, Fred Warner. Love Fred Warner out in San Fran. He was one of those, you know, had a lot of injuries on San Fran. He was one of those guys who were there, who was there all year, played great last year, played great in the Super Bowl. One of those guys who's always in the right place. You know, it's very athletic. athletic and he's one of the best cover guys.

You know, and obviously, you know, linebackers is just important to be able to cover to this play against the run. He does both well. So Fred Warner is my first guy. And then Bobby Wagner, even though I don't think he's still the Bobby Wagner, you know, it's probably two, three years ago. But even with him taking a half step back, he's still at the top of the game with how he plays the ball.

But it is a log jam. There's a lot of guys who are deserving to be, you know, in that first or second team. but those be my top two guys. I have the exact same too. I think the reasoning makes total sense. In my opinion, again, novice, amateur looking at it, I feel like Warner is the best linebacker in the league, just keying on quarterback's eyes and using them to take him to the ball.

It just feels like he has such a good feel for when to break on things, where he should be looking, where he should be moving. He's always around it because of how well he does that. And Wagner, I agree. I think you can make an argument a couple of years ago. that he might have been the second best defensive player in the NFL after Aaron. Oh, yeah.

I think he was that good in stretches. He's not that dominant now, in part because he's not rushing the passer and having that sort of production like he was back then. But I still think he's a really good player. There's one play that is sticking out particularly against the Giants.

They ran a play action pass. He was like in the curl flat. And he had to turn around and just book it on a deep over to Evan Ingram. And he got there. And just that awareness and athleticism to make that play,

very few guys could actually make that. Yeah, I remember that. That quarterback had to make that throw. And, you know, Ingrins, he's not a slow guy. So he's one of those, like Bobby Wagner, he's playing in that defense for so long. He knows exactly. And just like Fred Warner, they just know exactly where to be, you know, Warner does a great job in those underneath coverages of getting his debt,

getting to his landmark. And then, like you said, reading the quarterback. And that quarterback, a lot of times they go through a reads and they're going to take you, you know, right, right where they want you. So he does a great job showing up and to jump to some other guys who's on the list. You know, you got the maniac down to Indianapolis who is just, you know, he's always going to make the splash play. He's always flying around, going to make a big play when you need it for a defense.

And then Devin White in Tampa Bay, you know, he does it as well, fly the sideline him and David. But then he gives you the sack production as well, almost double-digit sacks this year. I think he has nine right now. Devin White is unbelievable. That was the guy on my second. I think that's totally fair. I did not have him on. I had Levanti David on instead. Just because the splash plays from Devin White are crazy. Against Atlanta, he helped win them that

game with the stuff he was doing as a pass rusher in the second half. And a lot of it is just adding on late and understanding when he should be doing it, it instincts, and just a feel for how to be a blitzer, which I think is an underrated trait. But with Levanti, just watching him sift through traffic both on passing plays and against the run. The way he moves just doesn't make any sense. He's almost like... He's been doing it for a minute too. I've loved him for so long.

And now it's been fun to watch that team be good and see more people notice. It's almost like in Terminator 2 when the guy turns into liquid and can like move along the floor. That's what watching Levante David is like just getting through guys and making plays in traffic. He does it so often. And the other guy had my second team, I just felt like he deserved recognition. for the way he's played this year is Roquan Smith. Oh, okay.

He had two-epit, two-in-in-inception game. So the one of them was a cheap one on a tip, but one of them was he was in the exact right place the way he should be. And he was really inconsistent for the first couple years of his career. He was a guy that clearly has all the talent in the world was a top-10 pick, but lacked feel.

And I think that's where my knock on Devin White would be. In coverage, he lacks feel. Because you can be as athletic as you want to be, but like the same way we're talking about with Wagner and with Fred Warner, it's about feelings, it's about instincts, it's about no understanding, spacing, and everything else. I feel like Roquan has really taken a step forward in that way. He has been so good in coverage this year in a way that he wasn't his first couple

years in the league. And then you combine that with the production on Splash Place. So right now, he is second in the NFL and tackles for loss to T.J. Watt. He has seven pass breakups this year. and on a per rush basis, he is the most impactful pass rusher at the linebacker position in the NFL, according to PFF.

He has 11 pressures and four sacks on only 43 pass rush snaps. So when you look at Devin White's production, he has 10 sacks, but he has like 150 pass rush steps. He does it all the time. So Robine has made the most out of those chances as a pass rusher.

So I just think he's been steady enough and when you combine that steadiness with all of the jump off the screen plays he's made, I just think he deserves to be in there. You can't be mad at that. Shout out to my coach, Chuck Pugano, doing a great job with that defense out of Chicago. Awesome.

That's all we got, man. I sincerely appreciate it. This is now shaping up to be like a two and a half hour podcast, but that's okay. I hope people are going to enjoy it. Sincerely appreciate the time, man. Everyone, please go check out. Darius J. Butler on Twitter.

Go check out the man-to-man pod. Go check out everything, DB. I promise you will learn a ton. Thank you so much for the time, man. I hope you enjoyed the holiday. Have a happy new year. Appreciate you. my time of you.

All right. It's time for the main event part of this podcast. If you guys made it through all of the safeties and nickel cornerbacks and offensive linemen, congratulations. You have gotten to the part that you probably want to listen to. And joining me to make that happen is my good buddy, Nate Tyson. Nate, how are you? I'm doing great.

You sound like a scout right there because maybe that's why line play is always so hard to find. It's because the guys are like, okay, quarterback's awesome, receivers, runoff accidents like, like, oh, line, man. It's on, here's the thing. Here's the reason. I love it. So I, I enjoy watching it.

It's just, so in prepping for this show, the skill position players take me, what? An hour. Like, you look at, you look at the numbers, you go back and I watch like some Calvin Ridley snaps and some all 22 digs to get a feel on some stuff. Because that's helped confirm it. Yes. And, yeah. If I'm going into Game Pass, I can just search Calvin Ridley. name. I can see every Calvin Ridley

target in 20 minutes. For offensive linemen, not the case. So if you really want to do your homework here, I spent all day yesterday watching offensive linemen and I still wasn't done prepping for the show. So that's the difference is that it takes a lot

more time and energy. And that's why having someone like Brandon is so nice because he's watched all of this consistently. So it's really just a time spent proposition more than anything else. That is so true because in a real scouting like one of my jobs when I was a grunt with the falcons is you have to make these tapes and it's like best best and worst plays kind of highlight the player and low light the player like what can you do really well what can you can't or just like something like offensive you know getting down fields showing some athleticism and lineman ones were always you almost have to learn what plays to throw out okay the naked the all that and most people like like you said it takes time to go through because like yeah like you watch your receiver it's just like all right all right all right all all four games targets.

Okay, let's watch a couple series where he's blocking. Okay, good job. Give some effort. All right. Yeah, that's it. We're done. That's so true. We're good.

Yeah. And in alignment, it's every single play matters. So it's like every single play, you can see something good or bad. And that's, yeah, it's time consuming. There's five guys up there, only two receivers. So part of the reason that I feel like the skill position part of this went fairly quick is that there's a lot of shock and it's easy to throw some of these guys in. So, and I'm sure there will be some,

prizes along the way. But these are our all pro teams for the skill position players on offense. Let's start with running back. Nate, who is your first team all pro running back? Yeah, and like you said, it's chalk. So Derek Henry. Go ahead. Yeah. Shocking with the chalk. It's, you know, receiving yards, just not only like leading the league and rushing yards, which again, and wearing opposing defenses down every single game. So it's kind of, we've gushed about Derek Henry. Everyone kind of gets a feel for the tractor at this point, the little tractor. Like, you know, everyone knows what Derek Henry is. But yeah, he's played another phenomenal year, you know, 15 touchdowns. It's, he is what he is. Like, hopefully he just

can keep sustaining this and be this outlier where he just flugs away and all these body blows every game. But yeah, Derek Henry with another great year, he's my first team running back. He checks all the boxes. I mean, it doesn't matter which one you want. If you want the overall raw production, this would be the 22nd time in NFL history of running back rushes for 1,800 yards. in this era, that's shocking. And he is not only piling up the numbers, but the efficiency is there as well. There's second in the NFL in EPA per play on rushing attempts.

He is averaging 3.79 yards after contact per attempt, which is second in the league. So he's making the most of his touches, and he's getting a lot of touches. And that's where you get a first team all pro running back. Steph Curry, shirt, threes. You know, it's like efficiency and numbers all the way in the top right of the graph.

often when volume goes up, efficiency goes down. It's always how it's been in every sport essentially. And his ability to kind of stave that off and be efficient, even with all the touches that he's getting is remarkable. And I also think that it's important in conversations like this to consider situation and to think about what these players mean to the system that they're in and what the system that they're in means to them. And I think if you look at what the Titans offense is,

the play action action is the most important thing. It doesn't matter as much who's paying running back. But every once in a while, his presence there helps. And I do think that he is in part the engine to what they do. As a pure runner, I think he's as valuable of a pure running back to an offense as you can be in 2020. Yes. Yes. Well, there's going to be a guy I talk about a little bit that like that's, God, that's a great little point though.

Yes. he is i mean that we talked about arthur smith and that's why i kind of like what he did he was like okay we have this anomaly at running back that can what what was he averaging in the fourth quarter like almost eight yards of carry in the fourth quarter it's still something like that i mean it's crazy seven yards or something in eight fourth quarter arthur smith realized that built the whole scheme around this outlier of a player and it's so cool to see someone just literally taking a run with it that role and just going being unlocked uh to their ability because you have to invest in them get the value out of them.

And guess what the Titans did? It's, yeah, he's really doing some nice things. He's catching a ball a little better than I ever thought he would be able to do. It's fun watching the Titans. They'll do double passes with him. Hit and miss on how he could throw the ball. But, you know, he still has that ability to do it. And yeah, it's, yeah, he's an easy all pro candidate.

Yeah, he's valuable to their scheme and what they want to do and valuable to that offense. It's valuable to the whole team. 7.19 rushing yards per attempts in the fourth quarter in overtime. my man Nick Chubb 10.42 in the fourth quarter of a healthy chub a healthy chub makes a run at these awards he's probably in this conversation I think him missing a couple of games knocks him out all right who's your second team running back second team running back is dalvin cook uh and this is going to be so boring we have all the same guys you should have seen me I know you should see me when I was going through like just looking at numbers just to kind of confirm because I wrote it I want to do it right I wrote the stuff down what I actually thought and then I looked at the numbers to just be like You know, can I just confirm what I've kind of been seeing? It was just like, oh, this is easy. All right.

Well, yeah. Henry, Dalvin Cook. Another guy that fits what they want to do just perfectly. His accelerations is unbelievable. He finishes, like, what was amazing this year, it's cool to see him not worry about injuries as much. Maybe he just, I don't know what it is, but like he bounces back up. There's like three scares that happened this year. Maybe it's because I'm just an Alexander Madison fantasy owner, so I'm aware of this.

There was like three scares this year Because I watched a lot of Vikings games You know, I had a little, little personal investment Or from the show. You think so? Yeah, just a little bit. Just a little bit. So I watched a lot of Vikings games this year.

But it just seemed that he is coming. He's becoming a complete football player. He's becoming more consistent with this stuff. He's not just trying to bounce stuff. He understands what they're trying to do. Even though it's his own scheme, it's a natural running scheme. He has the patience and then shows the acceleration. He can catch the ball great as well.

But what's fun to watch Dalvin Cook, not only he's just his talents, watching the little things improve. He was an awful pass protector entering this league. Awful. When I graded him, when I scouted him, that was the thing that I hated about him. I was like, oh, my God, he's terrible past protection. But you can teach that. Guess what?

You can teach it. And he learned it. And now he's good at it. So it's cool to see a star player, like because Davencook is a star, do the dirty things and do them well and actually learn to improve as a pro. So, yeah, second team, all pro. And I'm glad that he's staying healthy because he's such an exciting player to watch. It's funny because running back is still such a difficult position to evaluate coming into the draft because it's not about measurables all the time.

I think if you bet on traits at a lot of other positions, you'll be fine. And a lot of those guys will end up coming out. Like if I'm betting on traits at pass rusher or corner or something like that, it's just easier to make those dice rolls. Delvin Cook ran a 4-540. His three-cone time was in like the 10th percentile among all running back. but his play speed and the way he changes speeds and the acceleration and all of that stuff, it makes him so dangerous. And I think that it's a similar conversation to the one we just had about Derek Henry,

where you have the volume plus the efficiency. And that efficiency really drives their offense. He leads the NFL in Yards from Scrimmage Yards. I believe it's over 1900. He's ahead of Henry because Henry's caught like six passes the entire year. And he is so important to their offense. They're ninth in the NFL in EPA per rush, which is a little bit lower than the Titans are obviously, but it's still an efficient rushing offense considering how often they run the ball.

And they really lean on that. So he's my second team guy. I think it's pretty clear cut. Any honorable mentions here, anybody that was close to making the cut at this position for you or was just a two-man race? It really was a two-man race. Like I mentioned before, Chubb, you know, if he was healthy, he'd be up there. I do want to give a shout out to like James Robinson for having a great year, but not an all-pro year. but really fun player.

Before the year, I watched him because I was like, who the hell is James Robinson? So I watched, I actually have a friend. I made jokes before the season about how people should be better than the Jaguars backfield in fantasy. And I look like a real idiot now. I mean, that's a guy you could have gotten for a buck in your fantasy draft. And he probably, the fact that he didn't play in the championship week is rough for people,

but he probably got a lot of guys there. Yes. I took a flyer in one league and then the other league. I was priced out. I was kind of ticked off about it. But yeah, it's, I have a friend. in Illinois State, so I watched some film of them in August, and I was like, hey, this guy's not bad. And I compared him at the time. I said, I think his ceiling is kind of Alfred Morris with hands. And that was a good player. That sounds like an awesome guy. That's a great player. That's exactly a style of running back. I would love to watch. I love. It's my favorite type of player. And I watched him in August. And that's what I said. I kind of kept that private because I was like, because I loved him. Like that's where I watched this Illinois State film. I was like, this guy's not bad. And then. And then. And he flourished throughout the year.

So I was like, oh, cool. That's pretty cool to see a AA undrafted guy, FCS undrafted guy, do that. But, you know, that's a guy I love. Josh Jacobs is another great player. I don't think he's an all-pro caliber player, but he's like, you know, he's a good, good runnerback. When he's healthy and they're rolling,

he does some really nice things as well. But yeah, I think it's a two-horse race with a lot of nice players. There are some nice backs in the league again, which is really fond and versatile backs. So it's a good time. A lot of guys don't get the workload. I mean, the fact, those guys that have,

the number one role within their offense. I think having edge with stuff like this. But these guys were the two backs in the two best backs in the league all season. So I think this is totally fair. Illinois State is a place where if I was going to play college football, they were somebody I talked to about possibly playing there. Like long snapping and then kicking around other places. When I was down at some camps, I was talking to their coaches.

My very awful football career, that was one of the places I could have continued, could have cut it going. So good for James Robinson. Hey, Shelby Harris, I think is Illinois State guys? See, look at that, Bloomington, man. Those redbirds. All right. Those redbirds.

Let's get to wide receiver. I mean, first team, I think that there's one guy above the rest here. I'm not sure it's going to surprise anybody. And that's Devante Adams. I'm guessing you have him as well. Circle, starred. I don't even have a note underneath him because I was just like, yeah. I mean, I don't have to like explain this, do I?

National TV, normal Sunday games, anything you want. Anytime you watch him, he's producing. There's nobody locking them down. There's no scheme locking them down. Aaron the quarterback's not locking them down. It's phenomenal watch a receiver do this. He's untouchable right now. I love touchdown monsters.

It's so much fun to watch guys. Not only just catch a lot of balls and convert and get first downs, but freaking score and have a nose for the end zone. And you don't always get that with the receivers. So it's kind of, it's nice to see that again. I'm always going to be addicted to the Randy Moss mold. And Devante Adams is not the Randy Moss mold other than that they catch touchdowns. But I love Devante Adams for easy first team pick,

probably the easiest pick of anyone on the, oh, actually there's one other guy, but pretty easy first team pick right here. I think he's the easiest one. And you look at it, he's on pace for 110 catches, 1,500 yards and 18 touchdowns. Okay. That would be the first time in NFL history that's happened.

How many games too? He missed two games. It's ridiculous. You might score 20 touchdowns missing two games. So every, so there have been 22 seasons in NFL history where a guy has caught 110 balls for 1,500 yards, 22, ever. Every single one of the guys on that list played 16 games. Devante Adams is going to do it playing 14 games.

It's insane. It's nuts. It's like that Jerry Rice season when he set the record in like 12 games or whatever. Yes, when you had 22 touchdowns. Yeah, but it's like a modern version of that. I mean, that's so tough to do. And it's, again, it's the combination of the volume and the efficiency. Leads the NFL in yards per route run. He's the only player in the league over three yards per route run.

That's like Julio in his prime type stuff. And you consider the efficiency plus just the raw production that he's had. It's actually one of the best wide receiver seasons in the history of professional football. I feel comfortable saying that. I'm complete agreement with that. I try to always say with, oh, greatest ever, greatest this. But like when you do say you really want to meet it, this is like a top, this is easily a top five season.

And the eye test shows you that as well. When you watch him play, he feels this dominant. He feels this unstoppable in this moment. it's the i don't know if it was eric dickerson or o'amble they said there was the test they watched them walked out they go you could just take anybody walk out to a high school field when they're on the field and it's like all right who's the best player out here and then everyone would point at you know eric dickerson or or old campbell because it's like oh yeah that's easy if someone that's never known football someone that's like you know someone's just just watching the game or just getting

into it they could watch an NFL game and go man that's 17 can he he does a lot he scores a lot he must be good yeah yeah and then all of us like like nerds and stuff like, he is good. Yeah, yeah, good job. It's funny because when Huli, again, like Julio, that per play production that he had his entire career and he's always been the best at just those sorts of numbers. When you watch Julio on a field, you're like, that's the best guy. Like that is the most physically talented person. You build him in a lab. And it's cool that Devonte is having, that's this sort of dominance without being that guy. You know, he's a four-fives guy. He doesn't have the body type that

who Leo does. But the intricacies of the position, he's mastered all of them. He is the best at the little things right now. And that's why it's so fun to watch that sort of player dominate to this level. Because oftentimes when guys are this unstoppable, they have these physical gifts that are outwires as well. And he just doesn't necessarily have those. And that's why this sort of receiver being the man right now is just different and something that I really appreciate watching. I mean, that's funny because we're like, oh, yeah, you know, he does have the traits and everything that, like a Julio or, you know, an AJ Green or any of those types of guys. Calvin Johnson.

D.K. McCaff, you know, but his hand-eye coordination might be a point zero, zero, zero, zero one percentile. It's like baseball. It's like a guy hitting a baseball. I mean, it's still an unbelievable athletic talent. It's just not something that you can see on a stop watch or all of this other stuff. Yes. It's one of those. It's what athleticism and what we consider like a guy being an. athlete has, but usually we don't appreciate because they have other physical traits that overwhelm it. And it's some of these guys, man, they're spatial awareness and their hand-eye coordination. It's just like, oh, my God. It's like the first Toby McGuire, Spider-Man, when he catches all the stuff on the plate. Like that's Devont.

I'm catching the ball. And that's what some of these guys was just catching anything. Like, I've been around Michael Crabtree and Randy Moss and all these guys in hay and eye coordination. And it's just like, holy God. I think among all the receivers I've ever watched, he is the best at getting off the line of scrimmage. Like since I started covering the league in the last decade since I've really watched football, I think he is the best guy in that half second after the ball was snapped. You are not going to touch me.

I am going to instantly get separation from you. His scheme and matchup proof just because he can do stuff like that because then it's like, oh, you want to press them and double team? He's going to find space to get over. And if you want to play zone against Rogers, congratulations. Yeah, good luck. Good luck. All right.

We're going to pound the rock on you now because they can do that now. I'm curious. Who is your other first team wide receiver? Because I think this one's a little bit more up in the air. I think you go a bunch of different ways here. This was a little easier before last night. Okay. I'm going to stick with my gut.

I'm going with DeAndre Hopkins. Okay. As my other first. And receiver. You're wrong about this, but that's fine. I know. But this is one that if you argue a few other guys, I'm going to be like, okay. Yeah, I can see that.

It's with Hopkins, I'm, it's my type of guy that I like the ball winners and everything. But what they do with him in this offense is kind of cool to see the differences between what the Texans, how to, reutilizing him and how the Cardinals are. There are some similarities, but seeing him operate in that true ISO role and truly just being, you know, the ISO ball pick and roll guy with Kyle or Murray. That's, that's really fun to watch us here. The touchdowns are lacking, but I contribute that to scheme. I more than anything, I've seen him dominate the red zone.

So it's, okay, we have proof. It wasn't like he did at Clemson and he's the second year in the league. We have to figure out if he can do it. It's like, no, I've seen him dominate in the red zone. So that is not a worry for me. but it is stats everything when he finished second second in receptions you know again that's some of that's a little you know fat built up in the offense but he's converting first downs his yards after to catch is pretty freaking great uh you know he's averaging about five yards after the catch four and a

half yards after the catch he doesn't have drops you know one thing actually i did notice with d'andre and i know this is my first team guy i should be hyping him up but a lot of fumbles this year that was one thing i noticed uh just with my eye test i noticed that i thought he had two but he had four fumbles on the air. That is just something to mention. Just kind of weird seeing a guy that big with a strong hands, fumble of all that much. But I think he's my first team guy.

But I'm sure you're about to mention another guy that I do not. I'm not going to even like, like, like, like my eyes at. I think it should be digs. Yeah. I just, I really do. And I thought that probably even before last night I had him slotted in there. He leads the NFL in receiving yards, which, you know, that is a product of volume.

He's gotten a ton of targets. But he's sixth in the NFL. Fellen yards per route run. The efficiency is there. And I just think the way he's elevated that offense and how he's made everyone else better, like what he's done for Josh Allen, what he's done,

great receivers can be forced multipliers. They give you other opportunities within the offense. And I think we've seen that. Like Gabriel Davis is one on one every single play. And Beasley is able to manipulate space in ways because Diggs is there. I think that he just changes what they can be offensively. And it's just, I think that two other things.

one, I think these awards should help you tell the story of this season. And I think that the bill's offense is one of the stories of the season. And I think that him getting dropped in there and taking them to a different level is something that we should acknowledge when it's close. And it's close. And I like acknowledging those sorts of things. That trade is a season swinging decision by the bills. And he has made good on that deal.

So he's there for me. And I have also loved watching what he can do in a bigger role. Because when I watched him last year, he was right up there with area yard share, roll within the offense, all that other stuff. And when you put him in a more pass-heavy offense and you allow him to do different sorts of things than he was able to do in Minnesota, you see the player that he is right now. So I just think he should be first team. I have DeAndre's second team.

I think all the things you said make sense. He is their offense. is their passing offense. If he wasn't there, I would shudder to think what it would look like. Oh, they're passing him would be awful. I mean, it's true. I mean, I keep making this joke,

but it is truly pick and roll, Iso ball with Kyler and Di Andre. He's just on the backside. He lines up on the backside. That's all it is. That's their offense right now in their Cowher run game. It's pretty remarkable. And I think that that role he has,

plus the production. He is 110 catches, 13-702 yards. But his importance to what they do and the fact that they're a borderline playoff team, I think he deserves second team. Who's your other second team receiver? I'm really curious.

My other second team guy is DK, McCaff. He was right, just on the cusp for me. And actually, oh, I'm sorry, I mixed this up.

I actually had DK as the flex and Stefan Diggs. As my second team receiver. That was a little honor thing. I want to give Diggs the bump as a receiver vote as opposed to the flex vote. Excellent. Okay, so who's your second team receiver then?

By the one is Tyreek. Tyree Kill. Oh, Good. I had to say one. Okay. Why do you say Tyree? Because that was mine as well.

Yeah. I just, one of the last thing is just noticing this last night and just what you're talking about with digs and unlocking an offense. And this was fascinating. It's because we've seen Cole Beasily be a monster this year. He's one of the few guys that over 50% of his targets have gone for first downs this year in the league. You can wait, you can wait, by the way.

Yeah. And, but oh, with that offense, it's last night against the Patriots, Patriots, it's love to run the one double stuff where they double team your, your top target or your top weapon in the passing game. well, Patriots, who are you going to pick on third down? Do you go against Cole Beasley or do you go at Stefan Diggs? Like, you know, yeah, we can let Dawson Knox go drop the ball again. But it's, you know, it's, that's what you can see, Stefan Diggs unlocking because if he gets a double team, Cole Beasel gets unlocked.

If Cole Beasel gets a double team, you have Stefan Dugs one on one. And we saw what he was doing against one on one last night. But my other second team guy, Tyreek Hill, just I kind of hate that Tyreek gets pigeoned as just a speed guy. Me too. his route running is fantastic. And that's, and his ball ability to catch the ball and win balls. He caught the fade ball against the chargers where it's like,

you know, you don't see a five, nine, five, 10 guy catching fade balls in the red zone like that because he's just so fast, but he has such great body control. I mean, just the counting numbers are there. 15 touchdowns.

He doesn't get the quite as much following, but he still has 87 catches. It's just one of those guys. Everything's unlocked. How many times you see Tiger Kill catch a four yard, like a little flat route and out route? like turn on his RC car go right up the sideline and gets the first down and that that's what he does it's turning these six yard gains into 15 year games and that's a guy like him can do it and he has the football IQ to be aware of what he has to get and that's the thing he's not just a speed guy that's what i get kind of frustrated when people take the rugs of the henry rugs is of the world they're like oh we're going to get our tyriek hill yeah tiger kill runs freaking routes tiger hill can catch the ball like he's not just a four two four three guy that just takes the top off yeah he's he can do that better than anyone, but he does all these other things. And I think, yeah,

he was an easy second team one. Actually, he got a little bit of consideration for first team for me. Like he was like an easy, easy, easy second team pick for me. I think so too. Yeah, I slotted him in there without even thinking about it. I think the only question would have been should he been first team over Diggs? I think no. I think Diggs has been had the better season. I think he's been a better player. But what Hill does for that offense and what he unlocks within that offense and just what he allows them to do, not only with the vertical stretch, but they need him when things get tight to stretch defenses horizontally and getting the ball in his hands,

when the field compresses, they love to use him in those ways. And it's really important to what they do. So he's there for me. My honorable mentions here, I do not have D.K. McHaff. He was my first guy off. I think you absolutely can make an argument for him. His overall area share within that offense, what he's able to do, how he fits that system, the production.

I totally get the arguments. I just don't think he was quite as good as those other guys. And then my second guy that was right there is Justin Jefferson because I just thought he was phenomenal from from the get go. He does everything well. I think he's going to be an absolutely incredible player for a really long time. I'm excited to watch him. I think him and the one is an amazing duo, but they just weren't quite as good as those other guys for me. Yeah.

I, I'm big fan of Justin. I'm so glad I was even low on him because I, he was my favorite. I thought he was the easiest, easiest to project in the NFL. Like he easily had a role coming from LSU where it was like he's going to block. He's smart. He's tough. He's fast. Those are good traits.

And he's faster, bigger, tougher, better hands, better with the ball in his hands than I even projected with him. And it's cool to see because I love a player like that. That is my like pretty much my ideal type of receiver. And he's only 21. And so it's, I just hope they continue to unlock Justin Jefferson. All right. So let's get to the flex. Why don't you give us your rant on the flex position in the all pro roster and why you hate it?

So great idea. Like I get where they're getting at. And just like a lot of things with the NFL, it's great in theory until it gets into practice. And it's it. One of those things once they start voting, what I hate about this is people group them into flex and they have to almost have to rank these voting. I know this is too much to ask a voters, I guess. But I hate that some guys can win like first team running back, first team receiver and then like second team flex or first team flex and first team at another position. I just hate that.

I think it convolutes the award, and these awards frickin' matter, especially with contracts and the Hall of Fame. Hall of Fame. All pro matters to me still. It deeply matters to me. It matters a lot and contracts, even. There's guys that have contracts and stuff.

So straighten this award out. We've already seen what can happen in the NBA when they have the max contracts tied to this stuff. It's, you know, straighten it out. Like, this is even before I talk about what they do on the defense, because I think they should start shaping up how they do the flex

and everything with that. I think it's a little, I mean, I get why that's DB heavy, but they could tweak it a little bit. I just, it's one of those things. I just want them to clean it up because I just want this voting process to be sound. And I don't know, I just like my rules, as you know. I would love some more clarity. I don't, guys should not be able to win two positions.

Like, the fact that the Forrest Buckner didn't go to the Pro Bowl because he was listed as a defensive end in the Pro Bowl voting. Like stuff like that is ridiculous. So you're the NFL. We're all unofficial, not like, you know, with the NFL and we can figure it out. Like, this is this is your league and your job. Like, you know, you can shape it. up. All right. So despite our misgivings, who is your first team flex player on offense?

Okay. We kept talking to runoffics, two runners, two runbacks, two runbacks, because this guy is just a football player. And my first team flex is Alvin Kamara. And I think it's just he might be one of my favorite, top three favorite players in the league, any position. It's what he brings to the game, not just in the run game, but also the passing game and just his overall football IQ. He does everything well. He's just one of those guys where he's good across the board. Is he the most explosive guy? No. Is he the fastest guy?

No. But he's so smart and can just see the game and has that spatial awareness that it just unlocks everything. We saw it this weekend how many times he was hit the cutback zone. And maybe that was just coaching point or so, yeah, this game was on Friday. It might have been a coaching point to look for. But he was patient. It's one of those things where a slower running back at Alfred Morris again.

He gets two shoutouts on the show. A slower run back lets the play. kind of develop and then he can plant his foot and get north. And that's why a lot of zone guys, you'll see that can, like, are the four, five, four, six guys because they're naturally, they, uh, they naturally let the play develop is the nice way to say it. That means they're slow. They naturally let the play develop.

But Kamara is fast enough to take advantage of it still. He plays slow because he's thinking and he's just so smart and let plays develop. And I just love it. And not only is it just that, like, oh, he's the nerd pick. It's like, his counting stats are ridiculous. He almost has 1,700 total yards. He has 21 touchdowns, which is... Even if he hadn't had to six touchdowns the other day,

he'd still have 15 total touchdowns. Yeah, that's important. I was looking at that too. Yeah. And it's like, you know, he has a... It's kind of a cliche, but he has a nose for the end zone. He just knows how to score. He knows how to make big place.

He knows what they always need. And the fact that he's running, you know, he's done it for years now, but his route running ability is a plus plus ability. And it's just so much fun to watch. He's one of my favorite players. I'm so glad I got to rope him in on the first team. So he's in there as well for me.

At 2.19 yards per out run highest in the league among running backs. He has, like you said, over 1,600, almost 1,700 yards from scrimmage. And even if, let's say that Taseom Hill stretch doesn't happen and Breeze plays more, he could have had a monster all-time type season if he was catching balls during those few games when Breeze was out. So he's there for me, in part, because of how important he is to that offense. He is so important to what they do. It's so cool. I never thought we would see a guy coming to the same route.

God, this is a pretty high praise I'm about to say. But it's never seeing a guy be in the realm of a Marshall Falk where he is a true, true weapon in a running game in the past a game where you're designing routes for him as opposed to. Yeah, an angle route. Yeah, that's designed or a choice route. But it's like truly going like, hey, this is third down. This is second down. Okay, this is Camaro's play. Would split him out and run a full route tree.

It's just cool to see another runner back in. that kind of tier cut from that same cloth. I think the flex position is made for a guy like that. That's the type of guy I would like to see in there. Okay. Who's your second team flex? Okay. So this was D.K.

This was Metcalf because I wanted to get Diggs to bump as a receiver. And I kind of was hedging against a lot of the praise earlier in the year with Metcalf, but it's he is something else. He is a monster. And it's cool to see him kind of unlock. Defensers were starting to maybe figure out how to play Seahawks on offense a little bit so he got held back a little bit, but he still makes plays. It's like last game on Sunday, he got two huge first downs when the Seahawks had to get a score to put a dagger in the game.

And those are underneath stuff. And it's not just him catching the big overrout. So he was something deep and him just taking him being a monster and carrying three guys into the end zone or running past them. So the little things are coming. I always think, I do think his route tree is always going to be a little bit limited. Like we'll never praise him as, oh yeah, you got to watch him, watch his footwork and everything. but it doesn't matter because he can produce. And I think he's going to keep getting better. It's just like it's going to be a health thing a little bit with him. Great player.

And I'm glad to see him ascend. I picked the exact opposite player of D.K. Maccalf from my second team flex guy. I went with Cole Beasley. I love it. So for this reason, hear my argument here. I think that the flex should be designated for specific types of players, dual threat running backs, guys that do different sorts.

sorts of things. I think Cole Beasley is the most valuable slot receiver in the NFL this year. If you look at the numbers, he's sixth in the NFL in yards per route run from the slot. That may not seem that impressive, but a lot of the guys ahead of him on that list, they're jumping into the slot for matchup-based stuff to maximize efficiency. So Thielen, Robbie Anderson, Devante, those are the guys ahead of him on that list. They're not slot receivers.

That's just a way to create space for that. So the efficiency makes sense when you do that with that. The fact that he's that efficient and he leads the league in slot receptions is really impressive. And like you said, over 50% of his targets have gone for first downs. He's such a valuable piece. He's caught 15 third down catches for first downs this season. And also, I was talking to somebody yesterday who played in that offense for Brian Daible with Beasley. And we were talking about the creative process that Daible has gone through over the last few years.

And the person I was talking to is we kind of came to. to the conclusion, Beasley is his muse creatively. Beasley is somebody that really stokes his creativity because of all the things you can do with him, when you can get him one on one. And I think that that offense's evolution and progression is in part fueled by the different ways they try to use Cole Beasley. So again, if we're trying to tell the story of the season, I think that what Cole Beasley has done within that offense, what he is for that offense, and what that offense has been within the standing of the league. those things make him worthwhile to me to be a second team all pro in this specific situation. I, you, yeah, I'm not like, I'm not like phased. Like I, it's been great to watch Beasley this year. He's always been just kind of like a really fun role player and to see him just being like, low key extremely valuable.

Getting those first downs, turn those first downs. It's what as the football is as football is transitioned from 21, 12, 22 personnel to more 11 personnel, 12 personnel. Especially on that team. Especially on that team. now in the bills. The slot receiver is now the fullback. They have to generate those first downs on third down. Just think of those third and shorts that a fullback used to get the carry or something or a power runoffack used to get the carry. Okay, that's translated to the slot receiver. And that's what he's doing. Yeah, it's the complete opposite body type. But what he's generating is exactly the same, same type of role and same type of ability that those old big bruiser's used to do.

Yeah, he's one of the few guys to get a first down on over half his targets. I think there's only 10 when I did the list last week. There's only three of those guys that did it all last season. And not only that, it's, I love what you said about the muse part because I always fascinated me when they got Cole Beasley in the bills and they started just running all the SMU retype routes where there's like 15 different options. That's true. That he came to them and was like, this is the type of stuff I did at SMU. This is what I'd like to do. And Dave was like, cool, let's do it. I love that, which is amazing. That's insane. That's insane. Like, you don't hear that actually happened. Yep. It's so cool.

Well, you'll hear coaches ask and pick their brains and it's like one super cool play. One of the packages is called Mustang. It makes sense. Yeah. And it's it makes sense. But it's so cool because they use it in high leverage. It's not like when they're blowing a team out. And they're like, oh, what's running this cool little play and throw it in there?

No, it's like high, high leverage third downs. They're running redrouts with them. And that's where sometimes you see Josh Allen get into like where it looks like the controller got unplugged on them. And he's just sitting there in the pocket and just holding, holding, holding. He's waiting for Cole to win. to win. And that's how much faith that entire team has is that they're like, yeah, this play, it's, I make the joke with DeAndre Hopkins and ISO ball and all that. That's what this is. It's ISO ball. It's like, all right, let him work. Like clear out, clear out. Let him work. Let him run

whatever freaking route he wants to run. It's insane to run that in NFL. It's actually kind of cool that a team actually does that to not just a wrinkle. It's like a full blown package, like you said. I put Cole Beasley over D.K. McAf in my all pro team. I'm ready to hear to face the rat. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it because I felt so bad. I was so much of mine was chalk. So I'm just like, all right. It's fun to do something different.

I think that if you can make an argument for it, sometimes it's fun to do stuff like that. All right. Let's get to the tight end. I think this would be pretty quick. Oh, you think? Talk about chalk. Yeah, first team, Travis Kelsey. I mentioned Devante Adams might have been the easiest pick.

This might be the other easiest pick. This is, yeah. What else could you say? Up until last night, he was leading the league in receiving guards. Would have been the first tight end in NFL history to do that. And, you know, still got another week. but ah man i mean that's insane he's an ex-receiver at 265 pounds at 65 265 pounds it's he's a freak it's what they do with him is they split him out and no one can guard him and they and he also

has the football IQ to find the spaces that him and mahomes with those ad lit plays but not only that just with the we're talking about the 50% of first downs yeah uh kelsey has that fairly easily it's He has 79 first downs on 145 targets, which is crazy. That's insane. That's ridiculous. Like he's almost pushing 60% on that stat. So, and that means a lot to me. It's because that means you're just generating plays and generating more plays for your offense.

Yeah, he's an easy vote. I want to hear what you want to say because it's just probably going to be more praise. I mean, what are you going to do? I mean, it's already broke the record for receiving yards by its high end. And it's not just volume. He's eighth in the NFL in yards per route run. He's right behind Stefan Dakes. They're essentially tired.

he's a tight end. I mean, it's nuts how efficient and dominant and explosive his targets are and the role he plays in that offense. It's a lot of the same stuff we said for Devonthe Adams. You know it when you see it. It's obvious. He has been the most dynamic, most impactful player at that position in the league. It's not even a conversation.

Write it in. Don't think twice about it. Second team was pretty easy for me too. Yeah. And it's surprising. I think that a lot of the ways that the season played out are the guys getting hurt. I have Darren Waller and it wasn't particularly close for me. Yeah, same.

Darren Waller was for a few weeks this year, most of the year, unguardable. And he is in that, it's not where it's the Kelsey level because it's how he gets there's a little different. But it's what he's doing at the title position is like should get even more pub than it is. I know fantasy players and other and people in a note know he's a good player, but he's still almost underappreciated. what he can do. He is. He's diet, Kelsey. Yeah, he is.

He is. The AFC West, the AFC West says Kelsey Waller, Hunter Henry, who's no slouch, who's a very good player. He's going to be like Jason Witten Light for years and years and years. And then they have Noah Fant who's going to be a good player. It's like the AFC West Titans. The ways that the Raiders use Waller, they line them up in the same ways. They use him as that backside ex-receiver.

He essentially is the same sort of player and the same plays the same sort of role that Kelsey does. Yeah. He's just not, the offense isn't quite as, explosive. If you put Darren Waller in Kelsey's spot on the Chiefs, I'm not sure how much different his production would be than Travis Kelsey's. Kelsey is a special player

against zone defenses, but what Waller can do against man when you have him singled up on somebody, he's unstoppable. And I just, I feel like he's a really special player and people probably don't appreciate that enough. They had a fake

flat, like, Rolly Bird route. They've run a few times this year, but they hit one of them about middle of the year and I'm blanking out who they played I played against and on that route you don't see 250, 260 pound tight ends doing that. That is a slot receiver route and it was a return route. So it looks like he's selling a flat and he comes back inside. He left the safety guarding him just like broken. Like the guy was like three yards past him when he was breaking because he was just anticipating the flat because he has to. He's such a freak athlete. But it was like, holy crap. He's unlocking those routes. And he's coming along as a blocker. Both of these guys are eh. as blockers. But Kelsey at least is fighting a little bit. He's getting like in his old age, actually like a little better for a blocker. And I was like, yeah, getting some of that old man straight. It's so funny to me that Travis Kelsey is 31 years old. I like, I still can't. He's 25 in my head. He's 25 in my head because he and I had breakfast together years ago in Kansas City at a first watch. That's where he wanted to go. And I wrote about him and we sat there and went

and, you know, we've still, when we've run into each other since, he still reminds me of it. It was just so silly. But I just think of him as that guy. I think of him as that 25-year-old dancing guy. And I forget that that was six years ago that I went to Kansas City to do that. And that he's been like, he's an old head now. He's like a grizzled veteran in the NFL with his ears peers, the fade cut and everything. It's like it's hilarious to see.

Yeah, it's like he's becoming like a mature adult in front of our eyes. The only guy I had like that, and I always bring him up because I want to is Randy Moss, like his rookie year. Yeah. I know him when he had braces and everything. And then I was a kid too. And then now as an adult, he's on TV and he's got great beer and everything. That's one. I'm always like, oh, man, I'm old.

So one more, a quick wall or stat before we move on. Among players that at least 50 targets this year, the only guys are the higher percentage of his team's target share in the league are Devante Adams, Stefan Diggs, and D'Andre Hopkins. And they're a top 10 passing offense by a lot of efficiency numbers. To be the number one player on a top 10 offense, when you are so clearly the best option, I just think it says so much about what he has meant to the Raiders this year.

Anyone can produce, but when the other team's trying to stop you and you still produce, that's when you're on the next year. All right, quarterbacks, again, this is going to be pretty quick. Yeah,

first team, if you saw my MVP vote, pretty easy to dictate this one. Patrick Mahomes is my first team, all pro. There's a couple other guys. It's, quarterbacks are in a great spot right now in the league.

You have Mahomes? This first team? I do. Okay. I know. All right. That's fine. I do. It's so hard for me to break it. I've been stuck on that for 14 weeks and also

I can't waver off of it for two more these last two games. I just can't. Mahomes is my first team all pro. It's, it's going to take a lot for me to unshake it. It needs a Carl Malone season like when MJ didn't lose, when lost his like MVP to Carl Malone. I need that for me to shake it off this vote with Mahomes because that's, that's a realm he's in my brain is that he deserves MVP vote until proven otherwise. Yeah, I know what you're about to say. This guy did prove it otherwise. But it's, I, through 14 weeks, I was on Mahomes. I can't just shake it because of the last couple of weeks.

I'm sorry. I'm going to do that because it's a season long award and the player who played the best over the course of the season should win the award. But that's 14 of like just because it's two of those 14, just because we remember them most recently, you know. It's not about most recent. It's about the body of work. If you look at the body of work. Still same of Holmes. Patrick Mahomes is the best player in the NFL.

Okay. Patrick or Aaron Rogers has had the best. season of any quarterback this season. And I'm not, I'm not, I'm not like, I'm not shaking it, but this is my preference on my, my voting. So I'm voting my home still. But no, Rogers, Rogers is freaking, I mean, it's, that game, that game on Sunday was so much fun to watch.

Again, I rewatch it and it's just like, it's the stuff they're doing right now. I think you could look at the Sunday game as a perfect example of why I think Roger should win this award. He only threw 25 passes. He threw for, you know, a buck, like 200 yards and changed. And a lot of that. late, but they didn't need to throw the ball. When he's asked to do it, he was burning them down to Devante whenever they wanted to.

So, yeah, is that the most impressive quarterback performance ever? Absolutely not. But I think it's a perfect example of how easy the game is for him right now. Is part of the structure of that offense? Does it make it easier on him than a lot of the stuff that Mahomes has to do with pushing the ball down the field? Sure. But it's not as if Rogers is dinking and dunk in his way all over the place.

He's second in the NFL and completion percentage over expectation this year. he's averaging 8.0 air yards per attempt. This is not a simple offense. They push the ball down the field, and he's made it look easy. He leads the league in EPA per play. He is, in my opinion, has been the best quarterback in the NFL this season.

If you look at the numbers, he is on pace to finish with 4,300 passing yards, 47 touchdowns, and 70% completions. Be the first quarterback in the history of the NFL to hit all three of those benchmarks. We might have to de-emphasize illegal contact again. These freaking numbers, these guys are putting up.

That is insane. I think he has been the best quarterback. Patrick Mahomes is second for me. I think you can go either way. I'm just giving you shit. No, I'm all for it. You know what?

And this is even before, like, I hate how shitty his team is because I want to. I have to give him a shout out of Sean Watson because I was going to say, we have to talk about him and Josh Allen before we get out of here. I have to and Josh Howard. Yeah. I mean,

like I said, the league is in great hands with these quarterbacks. and just the styles they bring. It's so much fun. The other Mahomes stat that was awesome, and this is Rogers too, was just when I was prepping for this, I was just clicking on random stuff

on pro football reference. And the sack percentage stat, the bottom five. And it was all the old guys. It was Rothersberger, Breeze, Brady, and then it was Mahomes and Rogers. And I just thought that was fascinating to me. The lack of negative plays is crazy.

Yes. And Rogers has always been like that. And then now you have the percentage of positive plays. is so much higher for Rogers now. But to throw five picks and to never get sacked and to throw 47 touchdowns is just crazy. They are never, ever, ever in a bad position, ever. And Mahomes does make it hard on his offensive line, especially this year.

I think he's been bailing a little bit more often. I think he's been trying to hit more home runs. There have been a little bit more herky jerky to watch. The rhythms have been a little harder to establish for them offensively than in years past. They're still unbelievable. I just think that what Rogers has done, how easy he's made the game look, how on stop that offense has been. To me, if we're telling the story of the season, Aaron Rogers is the MVP of the NFL, in

my opinion, and he's the first team quarterback. Deshaun Watson has to be mentioned. Yeah. I think right now, it is harder to play quarterback for the Texans, both schematically and with the personnel on the field than maybe any other offense in the NFL. We mentioned that with Laramie Tunsell earlier. It's why he was my first team left tackle because I just think the offense doesn't help them at all. Do you know many screen passes the Texans have thrown this season?

Not a lot, I'm guessing. Six. Okay. And they probably expected all of them to work. Six. Or they run them on third and 20 just to get off the table. Guess what happens when you don't run a lot of screen passes? Guess what's probably not very efficient?

Probably not very efficient. Your screen game. Screen passes. Yeah. 20% of his. 20% of his plays, it's drop-exer play action, which was one of the lowest rates in the entire league. I think the degree of difficulty within the Texans offense is as high as it is anywhere. He has fewer easy throws, in my opinion, than almost every other quarterback in the NFL,

and he has thrived in that position. Also, Josh Allen has been amazing. Absolutely amazing. A season without this Rogers year, I think that Josh Allen would absolutely have a real argument to be the MVP in a non-Mahom's year because people are tired of Mahomes. but Rogers has just filled that void. Yeah. No. And that's, God, these, these quarterbacks are just so much fun. With Deshaun, too, is like, even with under O'Brien, I thought, okay, maybe because

O'Brien's over there, the wicked witch is dead, that they'll open up and run all these new things. It's like, no, they lock down and run the same shit that they have been running. It's so frustrating. It's atrocious. And they'll go into empty. They run the same freaking play out of empty. It's, it's the whip dig on the two-man side and then like stick on the field side. And that's all they run.

It's like, change it up for Deshaun. I get that he can, he's comfortable in it and knows where to go with it. But it's like, help a brother out. Like this guy is phenomenal. And he just, what they put around him, it's just as bad as Darnold. And what Darnold has to deal with. But it's, Dishon is doing some great, great stuff. And yeah, Josh Allen is phenomenal.

I can't. If he makes another mini leap, it's like, I don't, I can't recognize a quarterback position because it's yesterday. He can hit every throw. Like, it's literally the entire field is, is attainable to him. It's terrifying. There were so many plays yesterday where, like, the throw where he didn't throw it to Diggs in the flat and he came back to Lee Smith for the easy touchdown. That's just patience and smarts. Then you combine that with him rolling out and firing laser beams down the right sideline every single time he can escape to that side.

What he's doing, he has so many answers right now. It's really fun to watch. But again, Rogers and Mahomes take it for me. All right, we got to get out of here because this podcast is going to be 17 hours long. All right, buddy. Really appreciate doing this. This was really fun. I think a great way to kind of put a cap on the season

right before we head into the playoffs in Week 17. Guys, thank you so much for listening. Please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. I would sincerely appreciate it. Please subscribe to the athletic. Our Buy One Gift One offer is still going right now, is going through the end of the year. Please take advantage of that in the last couple of days that you can't.

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