The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Asking “Does This Matter?” for Early Preseason Storylines with Mitchell Schwartz + Cowboys camp visit with Jon Machota

Episode Date: August 1, 2022

Preseason storylines can get overblown this time of year. We're bringing in our own Super Bowl Champion Mitchell Schwartz to shed some light on the new training camp practice schedule, the Kyler Murray contract clause, young QBs missing throws, young WRs making plays and more "Does This Matter?" scenarios before Robert sits down with Cowboys beat writer for The Athletic, Jon Machota, at Cowboys camp in Oxnard, CA. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. Today is Monday, August 1st. I'm Robert Mays. Great show for you guys today. A little bit later, our Cowboys writer at the Athletic John Moshoda is going to be joining us for a check-in from Dallas Cowboys training camp, which is where I was on Friday in Oxnard. I am here in San Francisco now. I'll be at Niners' camp a little bit later on Monday.

Very much looking forward to that. Before we continue with the camp conversations, though, I am thrilled to welcome. My good friend, Mitch Schwartz. Mitch, how are you doing, buddy? I'm doing pretty good. It's a lot easier this time of year than it used to be. Yeah, you're probably feeling pretty good right now. Are the pads on yet at Chiefs Camp or do they go on tomorrow or today on Monday?

No, they go on Monday. This new ramp-up period is so odd. It's like they have five days and they just progressively go from like 70 minutes to 80 minutes to 90 or whatever it is. and then pads come on. I think the first practice has to be like an hour 40 or something. Like the time limits are very aggressive on top of how much ramp up period there is. So camp looks a lot different than from when I was doing it. But then again, I entered right after the 2011 CBA.

I never had to do two days. So I consider myself pretty lucky in that regard. When you talk to guys who did play during that period, what kind of sense did you get about how different training camp is now? Is it night and day? is a matter of degree. This is within the theme of the show we're going to do today. I want to go through a bunch of early training camp storylines and ask you, does this actually

matter? Try to sift through some of the stuff that's come up over the last week. So let's start with that. Does the change in camp structure and what it's been like over the last few years and in the new CBA, does that actually matter compared to what it used to be like? Well, to get to your kind of first question there, guys would say that it's a joke these days, especially the ones who played in two days. And so as you get older, I feel like camp gets easier every year.

Now, you could be under, say, Andy Reid, who runs a very similar camp year to year, because he kind of keeps things consistent. But, like, you know it to expect the third year that you didn't expect the first year. So there is a level of expectation where it does get, like, a little bit easier as you go along. Whether it matters for guys getting ready for the season, you know, I feel like the past few years we've said, oh, well, they don't have enough time to prepare. or, you know, they don't have this or that. But like the first season or the first game comes around and football looks pretty fine.

Like it looks good. It doesn't seem super sloppy. You know, I always make the joke that we don't expect professionals to have six or seven weeks of training camp, however that looks, however many padded practices, four or now three preseason games and play well in week one. But like when college football starts and college kids have four weeks and can only scrimmage against each other, like no one's making the, oh, this is so sloppy. there's poor tackling.

No one says that about college football and somehow the NFL players aren't ready enough to play football. So things will adapt with camp's schedule and structure. It's just way less padded practice. I was going to say hitting, but I mean, I'm sure they hit a bunch, but just less padded practice, less time doing that and how that actually translates. I don't know. I know there's a lot of theories on offensive line play in particular being downgraded because

of it. Are there aspects to continuity and learning how to play with new? guys that you think could be a little bit inhibited by a lack of practice time. Do you think teams that carry over a big chunk of their roster have somewhat of an inherent advantage if camp time and practice time goes down? Or am I reading too much into that? Yeah, I think you might be reading into that a little much just because that's the point of this show. I want you to tell me what matters and what doesn't. There's still a ton of practice. They started July 26 and the first game is like September 11th or September 10th or whatever. Totally fair. So there's still a month and a half of practice.

and yeah, it might not be fully padded and all that stuff. But on the flip side, you know, as we've seen OTAs change a little bit, as we see training camp change a lot, maybe there's an element that a slightly lower tempo practice every, you know, third or fourth day will lead to actual better learning. And so guys aren't just driven into the ground. They're not tired. They're not practicing poor technique. And so maybe what you lose in like literal practice time, you might gain in quality practice.

And quality practice, even with someone that you're not necessarily. necessarily used to, I think, is very beneficial. So I think it's a little maybe overblown. And again, it's standardized for all the teams. So I get what you're saying, theoretically a team that's worked together and has been through these practices before and a longer schedule might have a little bit more of an advantage. But I don't think it's any different than it used to be in terms of a team that's

kind of refreshing the roster a little bit. All right. So let's get into this here. We've had three, four days of camp so far. Again, I'm in San Francisco. stop what will be four on my camp tour starting today on Monday. By the way, I had, every time I'm in San Francisco, I go to El Farleto in the mission and get a burrito. And typically, it's late in the evening after imbibing some beverages is what it's been for most of my life.

Today, I had one at noon in the middle of the day before we started recording this podcast. If I'm moving a little bit slow over the next hour, that's the reason. So just getting in front of that as quickly as I can here. But what we want to do after four days of camp and after a few stops so far is sift through some of the news that's happened. Because so much stuff, it's like opening the floodgates when training camp starts. You just get all of these new stories and all of these snippets from practice and just feels like we're overwhelmed with little nuggets over the first few days. And I wanted to try to interrogate some of those new stories a little bit deeper and talk to someone who actually has had to think about these things and been on the ground when this stuff has happened. and figure out what matters and what doesn't.

And I want to start with something from last week, and that's the Kyler Homework Clause. Obviously, we've gone through like six iterations of this news story over the week that it's been in our lives. So this is a twofold question. I want to start with the original clause. With the first time you heard about it, that original clause and him having to study four hours a day,

did that set off any alarm bells with you? Did your antenna go up even a little bit when you heard about that? What was kind of the hubbub with guys around the league and guys that you talked to when that came to white? I was shocked. I thought it was kind of hilarious that they would stipulate that. I think it was just four hours throughout the whole week. I don't think it was even for the week. It was four hours for the week.

Yeah. And so literally just like on Monday and Tuesday, we want you to just prepare a little bit. So when you come to the facility Wednesday, you have some idea of what this team is going to do. So we don't have to teach you fresh. So my first instinct is they had to have put that. in there for a reason. So Kyler can say what he wants, the agent can say what he wants, the team can say what they want, but someone was insistent on that being in there for a specific reason. My next thought was if Kyler was going to be unhappy with the negotiations, if he was going to

do the social media delete thing, someone like that is always taking offense to things. We don't know if this was the thing he took offense to. But you think about quarterbacks that are prideful, just people in general that are prideful, if someone went to you and said, you're not preparing the way you need to prepare, we're going to force you to have this clause that we can wipe out all your money and make you basically treat you like a child. If you're the type of person to do the social media cleanse and kind of take offense to things and you have that much leverage as a quarterback, my thought was why would he ever play for them again if there wasn't a hint of truth? Like if that's something that you just believe, you know you're prepare, you study film at home,

you do all the things you're supposed to. And the team comes to you and says, hey, you don't prepare enough. we're going to mandate that you have this clause in your contract. You're just like, no, screw you. That's ridiculous that you would think that of me. And I'm never playing again. I'm out of here. So that's my maybe cynical spin on it. But I kind of just had the feeling like Kyler, at least publicly, did the things that unhappy people do in negotiations.

And if they tried to force this clause on him and it had zero justification, it seems like that would be the type of thing that you just draw a line in the sand and you're so offended by them offering it that you just say, no, I'm never. playing for you again. So that brings me to the next thing I wanted to ask you about. This thing has been torn up. On every side, he was pissed. I mean, that press conference he gave, he was clearly really mad. The team, it makes them look terrible. It makes them look like a Mickey Mouse organization that you're going to give this guy $230 million, but you don't feel like he prepares enough during the week. And we have to put this in there to make sure that he's not playing video games and actually watching enough tape to be ready for games. No one comes out of this looking good.

they come out and publicly rip it up because it's the only way to move on from this after it came to light. Do you think there's any way that the relationship between Kyla and the organization can't be at least a little bit afraid moving forward after the way that this played out? Or do you feel like those two sides have enough incentive to move on from this that it might not have any lingering effects? No, it's frayed and it will have lingering effects. Now, like anything in the NFL winning overcomes and cures everything. but if they're on the 10 and 7 trajectory, 9 and 8, kind of on the outskirts of making the playoffs, maybe another really poor playoff game or another kind of later season collapse, you know, maybe he's just poor for six games, Hopkins comes back, he looks better,

and like it just seems very linked that he is good with Hopkins on the field and not as good with Hopkins not on the field. If there's kind of any fracture in that foundation where the team isn't winning, they're not getting deep in the playoffs, you know, even potentially Super Bowl. I think over time it'll start to deteriorate. I think that scar tissue is now built up just that little bit enough that both sides can start to, you know, harbor that resentment.

And as things don't go the way that either side wants, I definitely think that that's there. So my gut would say he's not going to sign a third contract there. It would seem, you know, unlikely at this point that he would play out another four or five years and they'd just be winning so much that everyone would be happy and they'd kind of forget. about this. It does seem like the type of thing that starts the beginning of a downturn, you know, whatever that specific moment was in the Russell Wilson saga. Like, I don't know that we have the concrete reason of what kind of shifted it. It might be as simple as, you know, Pete Carroll's philosophy on football. But once that starts to happen and you're not having the

team success that you want, that's when things start to go south. And it seems like the groundwork is set for that. It's fine. It's not like they just signed the contract or anything and are embarking on this new relationship and new era of the franchise together. This is a perfect note on which to start all of this. Yeah, it's a very Arizona Cardinals. I still, I mean, I know a lot of people are saying the Cardinals look the worse than this. I still kind of think Kyler does. Like, I just, I can't imagine a team going to any other top quarterback and being like, dude, you have to study film. Like, we're going to contractually force you to study film. And the team's kind of stuck. You know, we talked about this other quarterbacks. It's, it's hard

to like do anything else than sign a guy who's shown flashes of being a top five quarterback. So what else is the team going to do? They wanted that little bit of security. Maybe made him feel better. But I don't think the Cardinals woke up one morning and said, you know what, we're going to force this clause that no one's ever heard of and it's never been in any of their contract. We're going to stick it in Kyler's just to screw him. Like no, that that comes from a place that they think they needed it to happen. So I just, I think that reflects a lot more poorly on Kyler. Now there are guys that can go out there and ball out and be. totally fine. And there's an element of Kingsbury's offense that maybe it's a little more

simplistic and you don't necessarily need to. That's its own problem. Yeah, I know every single thing that every other quarterback does. And so maybe you can get away with being one of those guys who just seized the field in a specific way. But I don't know. I kind of think it just looks worse on the player that a team was insistent on not only bringing this up and bringing it to his attention, but like forcing him to sign a contract with it in it. I was going to ask you how do you think the rest of the guys in the locker and would respond but there's a pretty good chance that if you've been around there for a couple of years and you already know that he's probably not watching the amount of tape that he's going to so i'm sure

this doesn't add any new information if you're a player on the arizona cardinals no definitely not for the older guys not for the guys that you know probably talk to rodney hudson knows yeah probably not too maybe that's why they traded for him they just knew kiler wasn't going to make any of the calls so they needed an older guy to do it i i'm not sure you're far off with that all right i want to stick with young quarterbacks in this discussion because the first few days, there have been some rough outings for second year guys. Trey Lancaster multiple interceptions during one of the early training camp practices. I know Justin Fields had a terrible day early on for the Bears. You watch this up close with Patrick Mahomes. His first year when he wasn't the full-time starter, but even into his

second year, I'm sure there were some growing pains, some hiccups, even if we knew he was going to be really, really good. Does this matter? If you're Justin Fields, of Trey Lance, and you throw three picks over the course of a training camp practice, or there's a day where the defense just kicks your ass. Does this really matter? Should we be focusing, practicing and practice out on this stuff in the way that some people tend to do? No, it's a one word answer, but I'll expand on it. If you go back and look, I'm fairly certain there were these types of articles written about Mahomes as well. And there's a few different reasons why you would be throwing the interception. So you just didn't read the coverage right. You're

thrown to the wrong guy. You're trying to force it in there. Maybe you're trying things that you wouldn't necessarily do in a game, but you want to kind of push the limits. I know for the Mahomes training camp interception thing, they asked them about it. They ask coach read about it. And they're both like, no, it's totally fine. Like, I want to see what I can get away with in practice.

And when the game comes, then I'll have a better understanding of what I can and what I can't get away with. Now, whether Lance and Fields are on that level, that's to be seen. Seems like Pat is pretty special in his regard of knowing, you know, the bad reason where to push it. But I just don't think, you know, this tracking of quarterback interceptions is worthwhile. For the most part, you're behind a day from the defense's install. I mean, they're technically behind a day from your install as well. But explain more about that.

Like the Chiefs, for instance. You know Spags has these coverages. Say he's a covered two guy and a man coverage guy. So you kind of have a feeling of the first day, you know, he might be running those coverages. but you don't know what blitzes he's putting in. You don't know what coverages he's specifically putting in. And so for training camp, all of a sudden, he runs these blitzes and pressures and runs these coverages.

And again, you have an inkling of what it is, but you don't specifically know. So theoretically, you don't really have tape to study to says, like, this is what his day one install is going to look like. These are the things we have to prepare for like you would in a game where you've watched the last four games. And you say, these are the coverages he's runs. These are the things we're going to prepare for. Now in a game, they'll run a couple wrinkles or a couple new things to throw you off.

But in training camp, most of it is new. You haven't like truly seen it. After practice, you're watching film. You go, oh, he put in the saw pressure and this safety blitz and this four week pressure. And then you kind of prepare for those. This is how we're going to handle it in the future. And the next day he puts in three more blitzes. And so it feels like you're always a day behind the install.

And, you know, as the quarterback and maybe you don't know that that's, specific day when Justin Reed for the chief say he's down, you know, he's blitzing. And then the next day he's high and he's like, you just don't know those intricacies. You don't know what the coverages are going to be. To go off of that, I just don't agree with. It's also, it's the time to learn. It's the time to make mistakes. It's the time to be like, okay, well, the strong safety was, you know, three yards further up than the free safety. I didn't really pick that up. I didn't realize he was going to drop down in the coverage and it would be a three deep. I read it as too high. And now I have that bank to my head that three yards can make all the difference in the world for tipping off

whether safety is going to go high or low. And so you learn from all these mistakes. And this is the time to do it, not to throw shade at Jimmy, but like he's had stretches where he has had two or three picks and three drives or something. So it just happens like it happens in games and it's okay to happen in practice. You work through that. That's literally the point of practice. So if it's going to be a little scatter shot and when it comes to the results for young quarterbacks, how do you judge where a is during training camp. As a player, can you feel how well a young quarterback is playing for stretches during camp? Is that something you can actually understand? Yeah, as a lineman, you can. It's that gut feeling. I mean, I don't know, people will say it's it or whatever.

It's hard to quantify, so this answer is probably not going to be the greatest. But you just have a sense of, like, this guy seems like he knows what he's doing. He's speaking with authority. He's moving with authority. There's a confidence to him. Command is probably a pretty big part of the equation. Yeah. And like if he comes, if, you know, Fields throws a pick comes back to the huddle and says, my bad guys, I was trying to force that one in there. I just want to see, like, you know, let's go on to the next play. Let's get him. Like that's different than the guy hangs his head. He gets a little mopey. He's really discouraged. So you can tell by their reaction, you know, how they feel about that situation. And there's also a process element that's more for the quarterback room for the other

quarterbacks for the offensive coordinator. They know if the quarterback is taking the drop that he's supposed to. If he's looking to the reeds, if he's, you know, singling out that one specific thing from a blitz look that he needs to. So there are kind of quantifiable ways for the people that know what he's supposed to do and what he's getting coached, whether he's going through that process. And there's also that general feel of how does he look, how's he reacting, does it seem confident, you know, is he moving well, is he throwing well? And so it's a little bit of a combination of both of those. And again, it's okay to struggle. And if the guy is down, if he's feeling bummed about it that's again a learning experience where you can teach them like hey your emotions matter like

your teammates are seeing how you look how you feel they're going to feed off you so if you're down yourself they're going to be down as well you know you're the leader people are looking to you even if you don't realize it and so those become teaching moments and maybe he throws a pick in a game and he hates himself and wants to you know go sit down and just be alone in a corner but he doesn't he walks off confidently he says my bad guys you know we got this next drive we'll get the back, we'll go score. And that could be the difference between winning and losing a game. And that's a valuable lesson you could learn from throwing an interception in training camp. How much of a sense within the first couple weeks of camp, or even by the time camp ends, do you have of whether your

team is going to be good? Can you sense that as a player? Like, we're fucking good. I couldn't. Well, when I was young, I couldn't. I thought we were going to win eight or ten games every year. And Joe had a sense we weren't going to. Like, no, we're going to win. three games this year. I was like, no, we're not. We're going to win eight. He's like, no, we'll win three, maybe four games. He's usually right. So you do kind of have a sense. I mean, you know kind of how good your quarterback is. You know relatively how good your defense should be. I mean, health is the differentiator for what actually happens once the season unfolds. But I think for the most part, you know what you are or you think you're going to be better than you are. You know, very rarely are you just pessimistic.

And like, no, we suck two in team. Like you don't really think in those terms. So, I mean, that's why all these stories are written and guys are talking big games and this guy looks the best he's ever looked and there's just so much optimism. And you think, I mean, it would suck to go through all the training, all the all the camp and kind of know the true story that you're going to be a three and 14 team. So guys definitely believe that their team has more talent. And the other thing, I mean, I've never really been on a team that did joint practices. I had one in my career. But like, you don't know what the other practices look like. you don't know how crisp they are.

You don't know what it looks like. And so you just kind of get locked into what it feels like your practice looks like. And if it feels like practices are good, you're like, man, there's no way these guys are practicing better than we are. Like, we're legit this year. All right. So let's go to the optimistic side of this. Tua completed a 60-yard pass to Tyreek Hill that we saw from fan video and a million things that

the dolphins tried to put out. And obviously, the internet was a buzz for like 90 minutes about whether this was a thing. and whether we should stop being so pessimistic about Tua and the dolphins this season. Does it matter if you complete 60-yard passes during training camp against what is probably the second-team defense? I know this is a leading version of the question. The answer is absolutely not.

The arm strength thing with Tua isn't, can he run a play action, take a full step in the pocket, and throw it as far as he can and reach 60 yards? I think we all think he probably can do that. The arm-string thing is, what happens if the running back isn't blocking the guy correct? or the left tackle gives up a little bit of pressure.

He's forced to move off his spot. He can't step into it. There's no chance he completes that ball to Tyreek in stride. He has to have a clean pocket and step into it to throw that. What you've seen in the Super Bowl, Pat, is throwing off his back foot across his body and throws it, you know, 60 plus air yards to complete it to Tyreek. Two, it doesn't have the arm strength to do it when it's not on platform, when it's not a clean pocket.

And that's where the deep ball kind of goes down the drain. That's where you're throwing on the run. maybe you don't have quite the velocity. So I would hope that in their play action game with quality blocking in a clean pocket, he can throw 50, 60 yards downfield. We know he's a very accurate quarterback, the most accurate, according to some people. But we know he's accurate. We know he can get the ball to where he needs to.

We know he can throw it downfield. He can't throw it 70 plus yards. But how that arm strength holds up in NFL action when you're forced to move. In perfect situations. Right. And that's just not football. So, and with that offensive line, I mean, it is a lot better than it has been, but it's still not Eagles from 2016, 2017 offensive line where you're just going to sit back there for eight seconds and do anything you want. So that's where the arm strength will break down is in a game, when he has to move, when he's forced to do anything that's not taking a crow hop and throwing the ball.

This is the thing that upset me and frustrated me when we were having the Madden arm strength conversation on Twitter last week or a couple weeks ago. this idea that Baker is in the top six and these two points less than Justin Herbert, whenever nonsense it was. Baker threw that ball at 75 yards, that Hail Mary out of the back of the end zone. He took two crow hops to throw that ball. Even if we move past that specific throw, Baker can put a lot on the ball when he can stick his cleats in the dirt and put everything into throws and he's on platform and everything is moving in the same direction.

That ridiculous 62 yards in the air throw that Justin Herbert had against the giant, last season, he had to roll out of the pocket and reset in about half a second before he uncorked that thing 60 yards in the air. Most NFL quarterbacks can have pretty good arm strength and look really good throwing the football when the circumstances and the situation allows them to have a ton of space to do it. When you have to move off platform or where you're even on the run and then you can still throw the ball with a ton of zip and things aren't perfect, that's where real arm strength that comes up. Just the smallest side, but that was really upsetting me last week. And people like, well, Baker has a cannon. Have you ever seen Baker throw football? Yeah, I have. When he has a ton

of space and they're moving the pocket and he can really screw his cleats into the ground and get that torque, he looks incredible. But if he's moving whatsoever and everything isn't working in concert during his throwing motion, that stuff goes away. Guys that have real armed talent are the ones that can do it from a variety of platforms, when things are crumbling around them, all of that stuff. And I think it's important to keep in mind when we're having arm strength discussions. Yeah, I mean, the sense I just got from that ramble was that you just felt slighted for your guy, Herbert, and you wanted to protect him. That's not even it. It's not even it.

It's the fact that Rogers is below Baker on that list. What Rogers can do while. Yeah, that's absurd. He flicks the ball and it goes 80 yards. What Rogers can do, even at this stage in his career, while moving is insane. That stuff where he moves up in the pocket and he kind of has that front foot that he uses as a kickstand. and the ball, the way that he could throw the ball in that way. Lamar is the same way.

The ball explodes off Lamar's hand. Explodes. So essentially what you're describing is like weight room strength versus on-field strength. That's exactly right. Exactly right. I played with plenty of guys who were the strongest dude in the weight room and they get on the field and you could just destroy them and they're not strong at all. And how that strength presents functionally to do your job on the football field during actual games. that's the determining factor whether you have strength or not, because I would be in the teens for

weight room strength and Madden, and now I'm not in the teens in NFL strength, and I'm not in the 90s either, but my functional on field strength because of leverage and all those things is much higher. And I think essentially that's what this boils down to. It's not pun pass and kick where you're 13-year-old Andy Reid, just chucking bombs. You know, you have to be on the run. You have to manipulate platforms, and that's where you can really see the guys with arm strength. Baker-Mayfield has to have both of his shoes screwed into the ground to make these throws. We saw Patrick Mahomes put some mustard on a ball where he was literally suspended in mid-air in the Super Bowl.

Like, that's the difference when we're talking about arm strength and is related to NFL quarterbacks. All right, let's stick with the Chiefs here a little bit. Orlando Brown and Jesse Bates, both of whom are on the franchise tag and not subject to fines for holding out in the UCBA, like a lot of these other players who are holding in our Derwin James, Roquant Smith, guys like that, does it matter that these two guys who are pretty pivotal pieces for teams with Super Bowl aspirations are potentially going to miss a huge chunk of training camp and maybe beyond that in Orlando Brown's case?

I would say it matters less for Bates because I feel like his position, you can kind of just go in there and play pretty good safety, especially when you're a top guy at your position. I mean, Weddell skipped two years and just showed up and played in the playoffs and that are pretty good. But I just think it's a position that you can get a lot of the way there in terms of like conditioning in terms of dead legs, all those things. Like just running, a lot of it is running. You know, you're not going to get a ton of opportunities to actually tackle as well. Those are things, again, you can simulate if you've got a good place to work out.

if you've got a good high school to go to and they've got dummies or whatever, you can, you know, kind of simulate those things, you know, for an offense alignment, it's a bit more difficult. And, you know, for Orlando, I mean, he's a big dude. He's got good athleticism for a size, but he's not, you know, an offense alignment that relies on pure athleticism like, you know, Trent Williams or Tyron Smith or, you know, some of these other kind of freak show guys that can run 47, four, eight. And so with him, I'd worry a little bit about, you know, getting in football shape. You know, that was training camp essentially for me was you come in in pretty good shape.

You've got two or three weeks where you're in the meet of camp. And my goal was to kind of hold off that fatigue as long as I could. You know, every year you get older, you get smarter. You do more, you know, cold tub. You do more proactive stretching and all the things that you can do for recovery purposes. But you're going to get super tired at some point. And your body's going to learn from it. It's going to adapt.

And then eventually you get into football shape. And especially with the way Coach Reed runs his training camps, like he's, he has it so that you're on the up and up and you're getting into football shape as things go along. And so my worry for an offense alignment is that you're missing two or three weeks of that or even more. I mean, we don't know when he's going to show up and sign the tag. I mean, technically, I guess those guys aren't holding out because they haven't signed a contract. But as an offense alignment, the worry is that you show up and you have maybe two or three weeks to kind of get up to speed. and those two or three weeks, the end of it season, or week one starts, and that's like right when you're kind of in that main, oh man, my legs are dead.

I don't feel great phase. So that would be my only worry. And then just the general timing element, like you can only practice against dummies so much. Like there is that timing element of going against Frank Clark against Carloptus, against Carlos Dunlap that, you know, you can't necessarily simulate. And so I do think it's just a little bit more difficult for an offense alignment, especially when, you know, you're not one that's, you know, one of those truly freak athlete guys. I haven't talked to you about the Brown contract offer and about the chief's decision to kind of draw a line in the sand, his decision to not take it.

Based on what your understanding of what they offered him and what you think he's worth and the lines they shouldn't go over, what do you make of just that entire back and forth between him and the organization? Yeah, it seems like it was what it was in the kind of 19 to 20 range in terms of like actual value. When you actually dig into the numbers, yeah. Yeah, because it seemed like there was that sixth year that was more in line with the wide receivers where they just throw in some money. So you can say the annual average is like 23 for Orlando's case. But realistically, it was the five-year deal for 95-ish or 100, whatever it was. So that puts them below the top tier of like 22, 23 million, which is Trent, which is Bakhtiari, Tunzel signed there.

and then it puts them above kind of this last wave of left tackles, like the Garrett Bulls contract, the Jake Matthews contract. So it kind of slots them into that second tier of offense alignment that aren't the true stud left tackles, just leave them on their own, let them be, they'll be fine. They can kind of change a game on their own on the left side. And it slots them more into kind of that second tier. Like I said, the kind of Bulls, Colton Miller's another one,

Jake Matthews. Which I think is pretty fair for, you know, where he is. He's a guy that wins often and doesn't necessarily win in the most aesthetically pleasing way, which I'm familiar with from my own career. But I do think there's an element of, you know, when you're running guys around the corner at the top of the pocket, the quarterback kind of always knowing that and knowing, you know, maybe especially a guy like Pat who scrambles to the right that allows defensive ends to kind of chase from the long way or just not having that full security of, you know, what you have in your mind is lock in a defensive. end up grasp him. You know, we can picture the Green Bay offensive line and Bacchiori especially just locking dudes up for seven, eight seconds, which is an absurd amount of time in the offensive line world. And Orlando can do that. He does it, you know, plenty of times, but that's not something that he does as often as, you know, the 22, 23 million dollar year

guys. So I think in those terms, the offer was pretty fair, from at least from what I see or from what I would have done. I can understand why he doesn't agree with that, you know, as a player, he's made three or four pro bowls in a row now. He has leverage too. When people trade that much for you, you have leverage when you walk into that negotiating room in a way that you wouldn't if you were just somebody coming up for an extension.

And I think that they're aware of that. Yeah. I mean, if he did that leverage, he would have signed a tonsill deal and they would have been forced to go that high. So the question is... Well, it's a little bit different when it's two first round picks

compared to what he went for. He had a bit of leverage, but the tag kind of takes that leverage away. What's he going to do? He's made $6 million in his career. He's just not going to play and he's going to lose over a million a week by not showing up. Getting back to the previous question,

the longer he stays away from training camp, potentially is that impacting his performance, especially early in the year. And now, again, he's only on a one-year deal, is that can impact how he plays, how he's perceived, whether they're going to be more willing next year

to give him a contract that reflects more in line with what he wants. That's where you run the risk of, you know, potentially you're kind of screwed if you do, screwed if you don't situation, that you don't want to sign the deal. You don't want to show up early in training camp. but it might be the best thing for you. That's just something that he knows whether he can, you know,

kind of work out with his crew and his trainer and show up and feel like he's in pretty good football shape to come out. And I'm sure he's going to, you know, have a pretty awesome year given kind of the way he thinks. I'm sure the way he feels about not getting the deal he wanted and knowing he's on a one-year deal where he's got to show out again. Can you remember the last time, like theoretically, if he does play on the tag, he plays out the season, he plays well. and he's allowed to hit free agency next year because the chiefs aren't willing to pay 120% of this year's salary if they tag him again.

I can't remember a starting level high above average, like second tier even, left tackle at age 26 hitting free agency in the last five, 10 years. Who would it have been? The guys that have done it, Whitworth, Tehran Armstead, Tehran's 30. Whitworth was 33, 34 when he did. Most of the other guys at the top of the market, almost every single one of them, are people that have signed with the team that drafted them, or they were traded like Tunsell. Yeah, the closest thing would be Trent Brown

after he got traded to New England, played left tackle for the year, Oakland signed him for 16 years. And he got a market-setting deal. Right, for Ed Wright tackle. No, it's something that doesn't happen. That's why the tackle market had stagnated for so long. I mean, relatively stagnated is no one hits free agency.

You don't get a chance. You haven't had that guy to really market reset the way, what's his face from Carolina, went down to Jacksonville, and kind of reset the guard market. We've seen Mitch Morris and other centers. Yeah. Reset the center market. And, you know, Trent Brown kind of reset the right tackle market. And then somehow Lane's been able to do that without ever leaving a couple of times.

But no, left tackles is just, it doesn't really happen. And so it would be an interesting situation. The flip side is, all right, so 20% more next year is 20 million. That's still. You would do it again. Yeah, you would do it again if you were the chiefs. Based on your window and the amount of flexibility you might have next season, I would not be surprised if they just said, you know what, screw it.

We're willing to pay it. And again, that's where I'm saying, I don't think Orlando has as much leverage as you would think from the trade because two years and 36 million is kind of underneath what you would expect a top left tackle to make. It's why if you're an offensive tackle and a left tackle getting franchised, you're screwed. Because it's an offensive lineman franchise tag that includes other markets. So for pretty much every position in football, getting franchise tag as a left tackle is the one that saps your leverage the most because of what they can pay you on it.

Yeah. Is the franchise tag is the average of the top five of the position or the average of the top 10? Because theoretically, if it's the average of the top five, I mean, those are all left tackles anyway. But I think the issue and why it's only like 16, 6 is because it goes off a cash, not cap. And so when you look at how much cash the guys are making, it's not like 20. 22 a year, 23 a year. I think it's the top five at your position. Top five salaries at the player's position.

Right. And so you would say 166 is well below what you would expect the franchise tag to be for the top five left tackles. But I think you're going off of cash, again, not cap. And all the cap numbers for those guys balloon in two or three years. And so that's why the number is less. So, yeah, from the chief's perspective, I mean, if he has a really good year, you're not going to want to let him go. you can tag him for 20 million, which is still undervalue for a left tackle. And if he's not good enough to want him keep him for 20 million, then he was on a one-year

deal and you let him go. And maybe a team pays him more than that 20 per year. Maybe they don't. But in this case, the chiefs kind of have the tag. And that's why players are pretty anti-tag in general. All right. Let's stick with left tackles for right now. David Bakhtiari is still not practicing for the Packers.

He had a third knee operation this offseason. Does this matter? Are we worried about this? Oh yeah, this is a big one. You don't really have guys that, you know, have a whole season off. You're kind of working towards training camp. You don't have him really participate in OTAs. And from everything we've heard, the expectation was that he would be ready.

So this isn't, hey, this is natural progression. We expected him back in the middle of August. You know, we'll work him into, in the shape. And then he'll be ready to go week one. This is, yeah, it seems like it's not quite where he wants it to be. We're going to keep reevaluating. He had another operative. apparently at some point in the all season.

So yeah, this is extremely worrisome. I also don't know, you know, the status of Jenkins, who's there, kind of all-pro left guard, who can also be an all-pro left tackle. And so now you're down your best two linemen, your left tackle and your left guard slash backup left tackle. Or right tackle this year, depending on how all of those positions shake out, which is another thing to be concerned about or think about as it relates to all of this. Yeah.

So I would be very worried. And it just doesn't seem like, okay, if he's not feeling perfectly healthy at the start a training camp, which is, again, what we kind of know of what that timeline was supposed to be. You know, is he really going to ever feel fully healthy? And then if he doesn't feel fully healthy and it's kind of lingering, then you don't trust it. You start to compensate. Other things pop up. You don't play as well. So, yeah, this is really worrisome. It does seem like from the outside again, like he probably won't play unless he feels like 100%, like, oh, yeah, my body feels the way it should because, you know, he's an older guy. He kind of understands what feels right,

what doesn't, I would imagine going through year two of this. You know, if your knees is not feeling the way it needs to, you're just like, no, like, this isn't right. I know it's not right. We're going to figure out why. And that's going to be difficult, you know, for the team. So, yeah, I would say very, very worried on that one. How hard is it when you know how your body is supposed to operate and it's not operating

that way and you don't know why? I can't even imagine if your body is your livelihood and you've played at that high of a level, what sort of frustration there has to? be when it's not working. And I'm sure you've been through this. Yeah, I mean, I haven't been through it as much. I've always known. You haven't been through it as much as other people, but even like with your back, like,

how frustrating is it when you're like, I know how I'm supposed to feel. And it just, I can't get there. That's the hard part. Luckily, in my case, like, I had specific reasons why I was injured and why, you know, obviously I had the streak. So, like, if I was playing, I chose to keep playing or it wasn't painful enough to be out there. It was my decision. So I could spring my ankle and be like, oh, man, I've got a high ankle spray. Why am I playing? I feel like crap. But again, it was my decision to tell the team I was ready to

play. I felt like I could go out there. You know, same with all those other little things I've played through. This is where it becomes difficult because doctors will look at MRIs. They'll look at whatever else. They'll do all the tests and they'll say, well, everything looks good on our end. Your MRI looks clean. This looks fine. And you're like, all right, but there's still a clicking or there's still this or there's still something and then all of a sudden it becomes into this game of is it a mental issue is he having phantom pain is he not tough enough does he not want to be out there and it turns into a mental struggle versus a physical struggle and that's where things get really difficult from the player perspective because there are certain stigmas still attached to that stuff that you're not tough

enough that you're not pushing through injury and again if you're a guy who's in all pro who's been the best at his position and you know the way your body is supposed to feel and it's just not working that way. You know, you are given a little bit more leeway than, you know, a second year guy who's like, hey, my knee hurts. It won't stop clicking. And the doctor's like, dude, you've had three MRIs and, you know, we check you out every day. And it seems fine.

But yeah, it's extremely difficult to both know there's something wrong, not be able to know to know why it's happening and not have a solution. And then the second part of that to also just like not feel great and kind of like know that you have to not feel great and still keep going. both of those are very difficult things. And fortunately, in this specific instance for him individually, like he has the cash a to kind of like do what he needs to do for his body for his career to get back to where he wants to. Because again, in that second or third year instance, you know, those guys might know, like, hey, my body just doesn't feel right.

Like, this isn't working the way I want to. And the team's going to say, well, it's just mental toughness. You're not pushing yourself. You're not whatever. Like get back out there. And, you know, that's where, you know, bad situation. happen. I like to check myself this time of you because I don't think I give enough credence to some injury news. And there are a couple specific ones I want to ask you about and kind of lump them into a larger does this matter question. Michael Gallup, when asked if he was going to make it back for week one, laughed at Cowboys reporters last week. And Ron Rivera came out early in training camp and said Chase Young wasn't going to be ready in week one. If you're not ready during training camp, if you're just walking back into the season in week one, week three, week five.

In my mind, it's like, oh, they'll be ready. Like, they'll just be themselves whenever they get back on the field in week three. And so that's, and that's why I'm asking you, like, how much of a deterrent and impediment is it to being the player you're supposed to be when you're having to work through these things early in the season? And you're just walking back into the lineup in week four. It's really difficult. And those two guys on top of Black Tiari, those are worrisome for me as well. Because you're going to feel better like the second year after than the first year. And if it's the first year and you don't kind of get that full training camp and you can't have two days on, one day off, kind of work your way through it, a natural progression.

It really gets down to, I guess, the recovery of the athlete, obviously, how he's feeling, how it's responding, whether he's getting the strength and all those things needed. But secondly, it's going to come down to the team and the view the team takes on that guy. And so maybe Chase Young, you know, he could be ready by week three. He would be at 80% or 90%. And the team's like, no, like you're coming back in week nine. And you're going to take the first two months off and we're going to get you as close to 100% as possible, ideally 100%. But like, we're going to get you at 95% or better. And taking that long view and maybe sacrificing, you know, four weeks of having the guy out there,

that versus a team that needs to win and doesn't have an older coach who comes. understands the way those things work. Yeah, it can get pretty difficult. So I worry about anyone who kind of shows up to camp and isn't on the schedule that we think they should be. Again, I think it would be something in any of these three cases if it was, no, this is like totally where we expected him to be. You know, this is something that, you know, best case scenario, he's going to be back by September, maybe October. You know, we're still targeting week eight and, you know, everything's kind of full go from there. But all these situations, it seems like the expectation has been. either ready for training camp or come back at some point during training camp and be there week

one for sure. And that's just not the case for these situations. And that's where it gets really dicey. And again, these aren't like soft tissue injuries that a little bit of hydration and a little bit of strength and some stretching and your body kind of gets used to it. Like these are legitimate injuries that come with much more difficult rehab schedules. Slightly related to this, Lucas Patrick, who is slated to be the bear's starting center, broke his thumb. He's probably going to miss the majority of training camp, but be back ready for the season and the start of the season. Does it matter for a second year quarterback whose center was signed because he knows this system and can theoretically take a lot off the mental load of that quarterback is not practicing

with Justin Fields for the next three weeks before the season starts? Does this matter? I think it does matter. Not like 100%, but it matters probably 50 to 60% of the way. How bad should I feel about this is the question I'm trying to ask you right now? Well, if I say it's anything more than 0%, you're going to feel terrible. So I've already said that. You're already going to feel terrible. I would just say if you signed a guy because he knows the scheme and he kind of understands

what to do, things should be easier than signing a guy who doesn't know the scheme and isn't quite as locked in. But again, there is that element of is the scheme quarterback dependent? Is it center dependent? How much are they working together? How much is the quarterback asking for the center's input? But, and then if you don't have kind of those reps to do it. Now, my guess is, you know, a broken thumb.

Obviously not a good situation. Alex Mack broke his thumb, like the week of week one in college and just kept playing and never missed a practice or anything because he's a free show. And like literally every time snacking the ball, he's just like, ah, ah. But that's Alex. And he's got massive thumbs too. So, but now where I was going to go with that is I'm sure that he, the center for the Chicago, is going to be in walkthroughs, get kind of the lower tempo practice reps

that you wouldn't get on the field, you know, as you're going through the physical stuff. So, yeah, they don't have those reps together of, we're running a third and eight plus drill. You're going to have eight reps against the defense. They're going to run all their pressures.

We're going to figure things out. We're going to talk through stuff. You know, you don't have that kind of acclamation of working together, understanding your tempo, your cadence is, your rhythm. But you will have the, through is you will have the meetings, you will have the installs where you're being taught things

the same way and you're seeing things the same way and you're in those blitz meetings together. And, you know, the coach is probably going to ask him the questions on blitz meetings more than the backup center. So that's why I say it does matter, but it's, you know, 50 or 60 percent. It's not like 100 percent. Like this is, oh my God, this is awful. Again, gets back to what I was saying with the Orlando situation. I just think it's more difficult for offense alignment to miss training camp and miss that

physical aspect of getting acclimated to office. offensive line play because it's just, you know, you can train for 15 half gassers all summer long and the first practice hits and you just feel out of shape. Like it's just so much different. All right. Going to the next one here, early in training camp, some of the guys that have stood out and apparently looked very good, not surprisingly, some of the younger receivers that we're seeing around the league. I think there's a bunch of reasons for this, but Romeo Dobbs, the fourth round receiver for the Packers from Nevada or Dubbs, I don't know how to pronounce it yet. I've just seen it written a bunch of different times. He's apparently looked fantastic early in camp.

George Pickens has made a ridiculous play for the Steelers every single day that's come up. Do flashes from young wide receivers before the pads come on in training camp actually matter? Yes. I'm going to say yes. Okay. All right. I love it. I know. You weren't expecting that, were you? I wasn't. I was not expecting it. I'm so happy. All right. Let me hear it. Okay. So the pads come on, you know, today or tomorrow, whatever, for these teams. But the receivers and dPs are already hand fighting. They're already kind of doing everything that they would ordinarily do. Like there's not much difference for them, I think, when pads go on. You know, you're not getting blindsided over the middle. Like, you're still not really taking guys to the ground in practice unless it's truly a live period. Most teams don't do that. So I think the physicality level is pretty similar to what they would get in pads. You know, it's all hand fighting and it's all punching chess and stuff. And it's not, you know, the truly physical stuff that the offensive line are doing.

So I think it's actually decently transferable that if a guy can get off a press coverage and, you know, a training camp practice with a helmet and the soft shell spiders, he can do the same if it's a helmet and a full padded, full pads in Jersey. So I think that's transferable. There's also, again, going back to what we talked about with quarterbacks, whether you can kind of tell if they get it or not. there is that element of just like this guy gets it like he looks like he belongs it seems like he knows what he's doing you know every team has the draft picker two that camp rolls around and it's just like nope within two practices you're just like nope uh nope missed on that one and you have the undrafted guy who's like man this guy looks awesome and i do think those things actually kind of matter um i guess the counterpoint was it like

Last year with New Orleans, the wide receiver that we were all freaking out about because Michael Thomas went down and we were like, oh my God, he's going to be amazing. And everyone drafted him like first round in the fantasy league. And you didn't really have a negative of a season compared to what the preseason hype was. But no, I do think that these wide receivers showing out matters. You know, obviously I follow a lot of cheese people. It seems like they're pretty excited about Skymore. And he's looking like. I was going to include him in this conversation too.

Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I do think like if a receiver is standing out and looks like he belongs. And again, it's different than like the highlight play that reporters are seeing that like, oh, wow, he made that one catch. Like it's more within the building. But like a weekend to practice, those around the building, like they'll know like this could get it or he doesn't. And I actually am a believer that that matters this early in training camp. How about the one thing that does frustrate me, the idea that quarterbacks are under pressure or that the pass rush is getting to guys early in camp when players aren't wearing pads.

that seems completely ridiculous. What are you supposed to do? That one is like, I don't know. That one I feel like is, that one doesn't matter to me if your quarterback is under siege before pads come on. Yeah. No, it doesn't really matter. It really just means that probably the D-line knows the cadence and they're using more bullwashes than they should. Yeah, exactly.

All right. I'm glad you confirmed that for me. Okay, last one, very quickly here. The Patriots not having a named offensive coordinator and them cobbling it to together with whoever they have on staff, including Joe, Judge, and Matt Patricia, does this actually matter? Yeah. Have they even said who's going to call the plays?

I do not know. I have no clarity on this so far. I know they came out with the official, like, these are the titles of all of our coaches. And like, there still wasn't a coordinator and they still had no clarity on, like, who the hell is running it, who's calling plays? Like, for all we know, it's Belichick. There's the video of Belichick, like, showing the receiver how to shake his head and then get over the bag on, like, an outbreaking route.

But we just don't know. I think that kind of matters. Now, they're tight-lipped about things. I don't know. I cannot imagine for the life of me what tactical advantage they're gaining by not saying Matt Patricia or Joe Judge is the offensive coordinator. Maybe backed up situations. They don't want teams to know that Judge is the one calling plays because they'll pack the line for the QB snake.

But I just, dude, it's so weird. It's so odd. I think that has to matter. There's no way Belichick goes into a season. and just feels like he's punting on offense. Like obviously that's not the case at all. Like he has to feel good about whatever the plan is. Or from the outside looking in,

it just looks really strange. I don't understand it. Yeah, I think it's weird that two guys who haven't done that role are now in those roles and taking on a huge chunk of the offensive priority for the Patriots. It's just, it's odd. Never seen it.

Can you do it by committee? Obviously, there's one guy who's going to say the words into the quarterback's helmet when you're sending in place. Can that job be done by cobbling it together through multiple people before you get to that final stage and someone has to actually call the place? So to that, the answer is yes, it can be done. Some teams run it where the offensive coordinator is more past game oriented. And so if it's a running play, he'll say, hey, offensive line coach, you know, we want to run

the ball. What do you like here? And the offensive line coach gives his favorite run of that moment. and it's collaborative in that regard. Or some guys, you know, the old Ben McAdoo Cheesecake Factory play sheet, you know, he's scripted every single like third and one, there's four plays, third and two, there's four plays, third and four plays, third in four to six, there's four plays. And the first time a third and one comes up, he just goes to the top one, chooses number one.

The next third and one, he goes to the next one, chooses that one. And so some guys like just script it so specifically ahead. of time that they want these plays run in these situations that you don't necessarily need like that one guy to choose every single play because you've kind of done that ahead of time to a degree. Now obviously that can't last for all 60 or 70 plays in a game, but maybe that gets you 50 plus plays of you got the first 15 scripted, you got the second 15 scripted, you've got kind of the post halftime script.

You've got all those third down, short yardage, goal line, all those things scripted. And you can kind of just pick off your big menu. but when it comes down to it, you know, when you're in a crunch time situation, like you'd kind of like to have that one guy who ranks ahead of the others. I can say, all right, this is what I want to do. Let's do it. So if it is, you know, truly collaborative, they're going to have to kind of work through who is the one that when it's third and five and they don't have anything left on the script and there's, you know, a minute 40 left and you just came out of a timeout and you have to get the first down. Like someone's going to have to be in charge. Someone's going to have to be the one choosing that play.

All right. there we go. They're all of, at least most of the early training camp storylines, and we just figured out which ones matter and which ones don't. Great job by us. We did it in like 57 minutes. All right. That's pretty good for us for me. It's pretty good. That's pretty good. All right. Mitchell Schwartz, always so great to chat with you, buddy. I really appreciate the time. We will have you back on very soon. Yeah. Thank you. Good luck with all your travels. I know you're traveling a lot at this training camp. I'm excited to be at Niners camp today at NCTray Lance. I head to Denver on Monday night for a couple days with the Broncos.

I've never been to the Broncos training camp before. It's tough to get to and compared to other ones. You can't drive anywhere else. We're going to go for one practice and now you're going to go for three practices, right? Because you triple everything. I actually am going for three days, but it has nothing to do with Russell Wilson. It just has to do with how the schedule ended up working out. So I am inspired by Russ.

So I'm going for three days of Broncos training camp. All right. Really appreciate it, buddy. We will certainly catch up with you here very soon. All right. Thanks. Good to see you. All right.

It's time for our chat with our Cowboys writer, John Moshota. Let's get to it. All right. We're joined now by our Cowboys writer at the Athletic, John Moshita. John, how you doing, man? I'm doing great. It's like three straight months of 100 degrees in Texas. So to be out here where it's in the mid-60s, low 70s, it's amazing.

It has been a beautiful week of weather. I will take this any day of the week. It's good to be back. Oxnard, California, one of the weirder training camp quirks that exist, the fact that the Cowboys continue to come out here. I understand it. They're escaping the weather, but it's always funny to me, just like driving up to this little village here. Is this Ventura County, technically? It is, yeah. It's just up at this little village here in Ventura County that the Dallas Cowboys own for like a two-week period in August every year. Well, I'll agree with you on that.

And so I came out for the first time in 2011 was my first time visiting here. I think I only came out for a week. And I just remember thinking it was so much fun. The weather was so beautiful again, because it's the hottest time of year in Texas. And I just started thinking, I was like, man, it would be great if they just move the team out here. Obviously, that'll never happen. But there's a hardcore fan base of Cowboys fans in Southern California. And so obviously Jerry Jones plays to that, you know, that's something that he likes to bring the team out here to kind of show them on front of the fan base that's out this way. There's a good crowd here every single day, Every single time I've ever been here.

The stands have been close to full. There's a ton of people around. Obviously, the excitement around this team never ceases to exist. As we get started here, we're three days in, right? What is the prevailing conversation around Dallas Cowboys training camp as things get started? Well, it's probably, it's all kind of tied together with the, are they finally going to make a deep playoff run? And you can't really tell that from what we're getting out here.

But that's where the fans are. That's where everybody is with this organization. When you don't go to an NFC championship game in over 26 years, it's all about like, what are they going to do in the postseason? So you come out here and you're, you know, this is exciting for a new year and all that. But there's key pieces they lost in the off season. I don't think anybody looks at this team on paper and thinks that it's better than it was last year at this time. And so when we talk to Jerry Jones at their opening press conference, you know, it's a lot of he's going to be very positive about everything. But there's just there's a lot of like, yeah, we'll kind of see it when we believe it.

You know, we'll believe it when it actually is out there and we can actually see it on the field. So for a training camp setting like this, it's just so hard for to sit there and go like, oh, there's a nice play here or there's nice there. Yeah, that'll be the difference. They're going to win games now. They're going to get past the while. They're going to get into the divisional round. They're going to finally get the NFC championship game. It just, it's a very, it's a very like wait and see type approach.

I think that's totally fair because the expectations are so high. I rarely does a team make the playoffs. And then you come into the next year and the coach has to answer questions about his job security during his opening press. conference of training camp. But that's where this team is, and understandably so. They've been one of the most talented teams in football for the last four or five years. I think the job that Will McLean in that front office have done, we've lauded on this show more than once, and the expectations are high because of that. So when you're sitting there thinking about it, what is the answer that you want out of this couple weeks then? But even with that in mind and knowing that

how this season ultimately plays out in his judge is going to happen in January, are there things you want answers to over the next couple weeks? What do you want to leave camp knowing about this team? The big thing for me would be on offense, seeing Dak having a rapport with these new wide receivers, James Washington, Jalen Tolbert. They're stepping in a huge role where with Michael Gallup, he already said there's no way he's playing week one. He might not be ready. He laughed at you guys yesterday when you asked him playing week one. So he might not be back for the first month of the season. So you need a lot out of two guys that you don't know very much about. You know, Jalen Tolbert's a third round pick. James Washington is a guy that they got on a one-year deal from Pittsburgh and he didn't

meet the expectations when he was with the Steelers. And so I just don't see this offense getting back to where it was last year, which it has to be if they're going to make a run in the playoffs unless those guys start clicking with DAC and, you know, pads haven't been on yet. So we really can't, you know, know, know that for sure. But that is probably the key, that part of it. And then obviously the offensive line, this is the first time I've come out here where you have serious questions about the offensive line. You like almost take it for granted with the Cowboys for so along with Tyrant Smith and Zach Martin and then even Travis Frederick for a while. They're like, oh, yeah, don't even have to look at the offensive line.

You know that that's going to at least be solid. But there's a lot of question marks there as well. So Mike McCarthy came out today and was talking about Tyler Smith's development and the ways that they've been working him since the spring. He said in the spring, it was probably 6040, the percentage of his snaps. He was getting a guard because they were trying him everywhere and they need a swing tackle, a lot of different considerations. He's been focusing more at left guard as training camp has gotten started.

I would assume with the hopes being that he will take that job and run with it. Correct me if I'm wrong. Yeah, it'd be a huge disaster if week one he's not their starting left guard. Huge disaster. And to be honest with you, the only way that I don't see him starting at left guard is if something was to happen in Tyron Smith went down and then they would make him the starting left tackle. But no, they didn't draft him in the first round because now, again, they didn't draft him in the first round because they think he's going to be Tyrant Smith immediately or Zach Martin.

It's going to take him some time. But no, he's going to get thrown out there right away. I just feel like what we've seen at camp with counter McGovern playing left guard. It's a little bit more of a, he's the veteran. You got to earn the job. Yeah, exactly. But Tyler Smith did get a lot of run with the ones today. So it's not surprising at all that they expect him to be that guy when the season kicks off.

True. But the one thing is none of us have seen him with pads on. That's true. That's true. Like, I mean, OTA's mini camp, you know, there's that the offensive line, you really can't judge it until. You certainly cannot. Yeah. But I think that even him getting that run is an indication that he's probably on track to get

that job when it's all said and done. The receiving core is interesting. I was looking at some of the numbers today and I think CD played about 40% of his snaps in the slot last year. And you would assume just from the outside looking in with Amari leaving and him kind of being elevated to that number one receiver role quote unquote, is he going to be outside even more this year? But the one piece in all of this that I hadn't been thinking about until I dug into it is that Cedric Wilson was almost exclusively a slot player last year. So if you're looking at the group now, whether it's with C.D., James Washington and Jalen Tolbert, and even when Gallup comes back, CD is the natural inside receiver among that entire group.

So with Wilson and Amari removed, I still feel like even if CED is now, quote, unquote, the number one option in the offense, he's going to play inside maybe even more than he did last year, which is something that like a light bulb went on today as I was looking at some of the numbers and then watching him work in the slot as much as he did during this practice. Yeah, no, you're absolutely right on that. There is going to be a lot more work from him in the slot. one of the plays today, you know, they showed him on a jet sweep, which is, again, like, you know, I hate making the comparison to Devo Samuel because, I mean, you see him out. He's not Debo,

Sam, okay? So we get that. He's not the big guy like that. He's a slight man. Right, right. Exactly. Exactly. But they want to use him in a variety of ways similar to how San Francisco uses Debo, not running him as much as Debo, but use him in some ways because he is their best playmaker when the ball is in his hands. And getting him the ball in the slot, you're right. That is, I believe that's the best way you utilize him. I think the stats will bear that out. the tape would bear that out. But with that being said, Mike McCarthy has been adamant since he's taken the job that he wants all of his receivers to be able to play on the inside and the outside. And so Tolbert, I think, can do that for sure. Gallup is someone that Mike McCarthy said in the

off season. He thinks can do it. He thinks that he can be very productive from the slot, too, if they need him to be. And then so then that leaves James Washington. So I've seen James Washington a lot on the outside. I would think that that, you know, deck and him have, you know, they tried connecting a deep ball a couple days ago that looked like it was good, but he didn't. ended up not hauling it in. That's something that Dax said after that practice that they got to just work on. They got to get their timing down. And he believes that'll happen. But the issue there is that Washington had a foot injury. So there was no OATAs. There was no mini camp. So he had some time at Dax House and things like that. And they're kind of getting on the same page here.

But to help CD in the slot, you're going to need somebody on the outside that's keeping defense as honest. And that player has to emerge. We just don't know who that is yet. Who's the guy on defense that you don't think we're talking enough about? Because a lot of the pieces are the same outside of Randy Gregory, obviously. How they piece together Randy Gregory's production is a question. But when you're looking at that group on defense, what are the biggest questions that you have? Well, defensive tackle is big for me. Again, another position, you just really, it's difficult to judge without the pads on. And it's just been, it's been a weakness for the Cowboys for a decade. Like, their safety position defensive tackle, they've put the least amount

of resources in and it's shown. And so Osa Diggisua, Neville Gallimore. Those are the two defensive tackles that have the best chance to put up the eye catching, you know, sack numbers, the pressures, things like that. I think one of, if those two can stay healthy, I think they'll be in good shape in that position, but they need production out of that defensive tackle spot. Because if they get that, you know, there's people that have come out here, you know, and they're really focusing on that whole right defensive end. How are they going to replace Randy Gregory? I think with the bodies they have, Dorrance Armstrong, Sam Williams, they signed Dante Fowler, one of those guys at least will emerge. When you have DeMarcus Lawrence on the other side,

You have a chess piece like Michael Parsons. That other D.N. Spout will work itself out. But if tackle, that's, because this is a team that has been run on a decent amount, too, in the past. And that's been one of the big reasons they've fallen short in the postseason, too, that Mike McCarthy has pointed to. So defensive tackle is a big one for me. And again, I just wish we could see a little bit more with pads on, but I understand how the collective bargaining agreement is. And, you know, they got to ramp the thing up, you know, and they're not going to do all of that stuff right away. But that's that middle of the defense.

that if they can perform well at the defensive tackle spot, they should be in pretty good shape. Speaking of the middle of the defense, when Micah does pump down to defensive end, obviously, they still have late in Vanderey. Who do you think would be another linebacker in that spot in those sort of looks? That was something I was thinking about today. It's absolutely got to be Gibral Cox. They love his versatility. He's really, he's got a lot of athleticism. He's not as athletic as Mike, obviously. But, you know, he ended up getting that knee injury last year. And that just, it was like, okay, so they were hoping that they were going to get a lot out of him and then the injury happened and they had to shut him down.

Is it a third round pick? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, he was at LSU and then transferred to North Dakota State. And he was a big part of their plans last year. They were hoping that he would eventually take that number two linebacker job and just run with it. But then he had the injury to the knee, ended his season. But now he says he's 100% back.

We got a chance to talk to him today. He, you know, he's going to get tons of opportunities to really be the type of playmaking linebacker that really the Cowboys have been missing. for a while. I mean, you can say Michael Parsons is, but... He's a different type of play. Absolutely. Absolutely. Do you feel like Cox could supplant Vandresh? Yeah. It's certainly possible. Oh, yeah, no, no. It's absolutely possible. As of right now, you know, I'd still have to see some more. Right now, I would predict that Leighton Van derrish

gets the most snaps out of those two. But if you told me a few weeks into the season, they were like, you know, Cox has just won the job. He's making plays all over to place. Then they run with it. But I think it's close. I think it's going to be close. But there's no question they have high hopes for Cox going forward. And let's be honest, Layton Van derrish signed a one-year deal to stay. It's not like that he got a long-term extension or anything like that. So, you know, he has to have a big year too, but no, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Cox ends up being their number two linebacker. I asked Dan Quinn today, was there a guy on defense I'm not thinking enough about.

And the name that he brought up was Donovan Wilson. And when you look at this secondary, I think it's such an interesting bit of team building the way they've put this thing together. And Jay Ron Curse last year was on a really cheap one-year deal. They brought him back. and they have three corners to line up in those nickels, the situation. If they want to have Jordan Lewis as the nickel corner, sometimes curse can be in the slot, and they would have Wilson and Malie Cooker out there.

The versatility they have on the back end, I think, is really a hallmark of this team based on who they were last year, and they have the bodies to be that again on defense this season. No, they do, and it's funny because you mentioned that, and then, like, I was talking about defensive tackle earlier, how those are the two positions that before really Dan Quinn came here, those are like their two weaknesses. And he's made them into safety is more of a strength into defensive tackle, in my opinion.

But defensive tackle is kind of going in that direction too. But this is the first time at safety that one, they've put in the resources. And two, you actually feel confident at what they have in safety going into a season. Because, yeah, you mentioned Curse and Hooker. Those are likely your first two safeties up. But Donovan Wilson was a guy that the previous regime liked a lot under Jason Garrett. And he's a guy that we've seen him out here quite a bit mixing in. And they're going to do three safety looks because Curse can come down and play as almost another linebacker type thing.

But that's interesting that he said that because, yeah, he's a guy that the upside is certainly there. It's just like you've got to see him put it together on Sundays. If you look at the way the league has gone over the last 10 years or so since Dan Quinn was in Seattle the first time. And when those Seattle teams, similar to this Cowboys team in the sense that single high, cover three, cover one. But the percentages have flipped and the personnel was flipped. Those Seattle teams, especially on the back end, you knew what you were getting. You had Camp Chancellor, Earl Thomas, and the two corners, and that was it. And that's how that team was built.

And now, because this team plays so much more man, the versatility you need on the back end is at a premium. And I think that Dan Quinn has understood that in the ways that he's had to evolve. And it's not just the scheme that's had to evolve, but the understanding of how to deploy personnel. And I think that's going to be a common theme no matter how teams play in terms of the coverage structures and how much man they play, how much zone they play. But I think with this team, it's really, really apparent in the way they've tried to build this.

Yeah, and that is an opposite of the way it was under Rod Marinelli. Rod Marinelli's defense was very, very good example. Yeah, it was very like you kind of, they were open with you knowing that, hey,

this is what we're going to do. This is how we play. You go ahead and you try and beat it. And then when Mike McCarthy got hired, he wanted to make the defense more multiple, and it was a disaster with Mike Nolan. It just was a disaster. And so they had replaced Mike Nolan after the first year,

but Dan Quinn steps in. And they talk about it being more versatile. They draft a piece like Micah Parsons. And then you also see them. So it's not only the talk of them doing it. You're actually seeing it on the field. And don't get me wrong. I think Micah Parsons would have been great last year on 31 other teams.

But I just think the way that him and Dan Quinn won are on the same page on things. And the way Dan Quinn is willing to utilize him in a multiple different kinds of packages, different kinds of ways that I don't know that every single defensive coordinator would do. I think that that is really, it allows Micah to be at his best. And frankly, that's the, the most important thing for this Cowboys defense. You need Micah Parsons to be, you know, again, in the defensive player of the year category, just all over to field making plays. And I do think Dan Quinn, and one of his greatest strengths is him putting guys like Micah, like Jay Renkerson

positions to make those plays. Michael Parsons is the most important player on this defense. I think there's no question about the most important player on this offense is. I feel like we're in a weird stretch for deck. Where last year it kind of felt like he was a dark horse MVP candidate and they had a real chance to be an explosive kind of top three offense and maybe we would change the way we talked about him even after the extension. Is he one of the guys at quarterback? And if you look at Mike Sandos quarterback tiers, it's really reflective of kind of how I'm thinking about deck now. It's like, yeah, you know what? He was maybe on the doorstep of that group, but didn't quite break through. He just belongs in that second

group and that's who he is. And if that's the case and they're paying him $40 million and they've gotten worse at receiver, it honestly feels like this is going to be a fascinating season to kind feel out where he is and what he can be as the driving force of an entire franchise. No, there's no question about that. And the thing is, well, the questions on the offensive line don't help. You know, he needs an adequate at least offensive line. He can't be making the mistakes that they were making last year, particularly pre-snap penalties, things like that, putting them behind the chains, some of the holding calls

and things like that. So, I mean, there's no question. I think when you mentioned those tiers, I always find that such a fascinating article. You know, that's right where I would have, Dak, somewhere between eight, 11 and any of those guys in that group, you can kind of argue one over the other, who's got the better supporting cast, who's the better player, whatever. I think Dak is solidly in that top 10 as long as he's healthy. He dealt with some injury issues last year that, you know, he'll, he will never say it, but I felt like that affected him big time because where they were, the

trajectory, trajectory they were on after that New England game, you were kind of like, oh, this, to me, I thought it was the best Cowboys team that I had seen since I started covering a team in 2011 and they were getting healthy at the right time but he just wasn't right you know he missed that game against minnesota they win the game with cooper rush and i'm thinking oh deck's just going to step right back in pick up where he left off and they just never really did and i don't know if it was because of the calf i don't know it was because you know maybe he was hesitant still with the ankle that you know the end of the season obviously the year before that but he does look leaner he does like he is in his best shape. I know everyone hates to hear that this time of year because it's

nauseating, but he really does. And everything is too, I want to tell you too, especially from watching this, like, this really isn't the best setting for Dak Prescott. Like, Dak Prescott's at his best when he's in an actual game. The bullets are flying. And he's like, when you just go through some of these drills and stuff like that, he'll miss on some of these targets. You'll hear some stuff from fans saying things like that. It's like, this isn't where he's, I mean, believe me, I was specifically remember 2016 watching on this field every single day after Tony Romo went down. and Kelmore went down where we would sit there and chart, who had a better day between Dak Prescott and Jamil showers.

And you're always just like, I don't know, I think Jamil won today. And Jamil showers even in the NFL anymore. Jack Prescott's gone on to be. So it is one of those things where, you know, you can't read too much into the training camp thing. You know, there's going to be highlights. There's going to be some bad plays, whatever. But I do think if he's healthy and they get that offensive line solidified,

and one of those, at least one of those other receivers step up, I think he'll be fine. I'll think he'll be in the conversation of one of those top, you know, eight to 10 guys. I just, I don't know, man. it's tough to put anybody in that top five because it's just so solidified with those guys there that the only way you get in that conversation as far as I'm concerned is with the postseason success. And if you were the ninth best quarterback in the league and you are making just below

top of the market quarterback money and the supporting cast around you, it can no longer be flawless because the money has gone elsewhere. What are you as a team? What are you as an offense? And that's the question. That to me is what we're going to find out this year when you have to move on from an Amari Cooper because you're paying you're running back. lot of money and your quarterback a lot of money. If that guy is the ninth best quarterback in the league, what's your ceiling? And can you break through that ceiling because your defense was better than you expected because of something else? That to me is like the big thing hanging over this entire team is with this group, with Kellanmore, with Dak Prescott, what are the Cowboys and

how far can they go? Well, and I remember right after Dak signed that deal, I remember how much Jerry in Jerry Jones's own ways of kind of saying things, but he never says them directly. You got to kind of read between the lines. But he was making it pretty clear. that when when dad got that deal that was like well he's going to have to take more on you know and and that and that comes to things like that like moving on from marie cooper moving on from lyle Collins that part of it when you make that money means you got to step your game up too and you got to pick up everybody else and you got to help carry things because let's be honest like his first few years in the league he had a great offensive line in front of them obviously zeke was

at his best you know you have a mari cooper michael gallop some of these guys and then you know an embarrassment of riches last year going in the season you you have cd lamb and with that group too Well, now it's, Dax's got to take it a little bit to the next level as well himself. Yeah, there's no question. But that's also what you, I don't understand how you as a player wouldn't expect that when you get, when you signed a deal like that. It doesn't help that the running back is making like $15 million. And we haven't even mentioned him as like an important part of their plans. Well, he's a part of their plans.

There's no question about that. I mean, heck, he got hurt week four with the partially torn PCL. And they never really even dialed them back. I mean, they just, they view Zique as like Mike McCarthy said the other. day. He's a keystone, one of the rocks on the team that when I hear him say that, I always think of like, well, guys like you that, you know, they're like, that's not where the game's going, you know, Mike. Like, that's not like, it's not a matter of that. I think there are running backs that are truly important to the offense's success. If you look at what he's been over the last couple

years, he is not one of those guys. This team has been better and the guy behind him has been a more effective player when he's gotten those touches. The biggest thing, too, with, with Zeeke, is that it's just those big runs haven't been there, man. Like, not, I think. the first couple years, especially the first season. I mean, it was just like you could almost count on it every game for at least one big 20-plus yard run. And that just has not been part of his game. Now, he did say that he thought that the knee injury took one of the things he noticed the most is it took away his burst, which, yeah, I can understand that. But that has been a big thing that's missing.

And you know what's the other part of is he's such a physical runner. If you don't have that burst, you're just, you're taking even more big hits because you're not breaking it out. You're not getting in these big runs where you can't get out of bounds, you know, that you're not, you know, that you're getting attacked. but it's not as much as some of these punishing blows that he takes it. It's like, you know, you look at Zeke and you're just like he had the PCL in week four and you're just kind of like, okay, what's to make, like whatever happens out here does it really matter? Because once they start getting tackled, but his physical running style, how long can he stay healthy for? And this is a huge year for him, but it's a huge year for Tony Poller too, too, because last year of his rookie deal,

like he needs to have obviously more touches. His touches have gone up every year that he's, that he's been on the team. But I will say one of my most interesting things I've seen from the two with them over my time covering is that neither one of them has ever even slipped up a little bit and set across word where it would make you think like, oh yeah, these guys are in a competition. They don't like each other because I feel like, you know, seriously, I feel like fans like think that like, yeah, of course, they're paying them against each other. Right, right. And I've never got that sense from those too. You mentioned them the explosive runs. That to me is where the running game really matters right now.

Do you have a running game that can give you those explosive runs? Because if you look at the running backs and the running games where it's a huge part and it's a really affected part of their offense. Cleveland, Indianapolis, you need those 50-yarders every once in a while. You need those 20-yarders consistently. And Zeeke's getting paid like a Nick Chub or Jonathan Taylor will, and he's not giving them that year. And that's the problem. If the way that you're allocating your resources isn't indicative of what kind of team you are, that disconnect is where you start running into trouble. Wait, hold on, you don't think that if they just run Zique for four or five yards, 17 play drives, you don't think that's going to get them the Super Bowl? Not sure the NFL is in a place where let's get to

third and three, let's make it manageable is how you turn into a really good offense. I might be wrong, but that's not the sense I get based on being with Matthew Stafford and Justin Herbert in those offenses over the last two days. Yeah, man, there was a time, though, here when Zeke was drafted, where that certainly was the game plan, you know, was to, let's just take what the defense gives us. And even going into last season, there was a lot of talk of that, like, how loaded they were that. Well, they load up the box.

We'll just throw it. We have all these good wide receivers. And if they, and if the box is light, we're running it all day long. And it's like kind of, I don't know, you kind of get the feeling that other teams are like, okay, let's see you put together all this play, especially with this team being the most penalized. It was like, it's not only the putting together a 17 play drive,

it's really productive. It's that with this team last year, it was like 17 plays. To do that, you're going to not have one penalty in 17 plays. It doesn't even seem like that's realistic to think that's going to happen. And that's unique explosive plays. We talked about it earlier this week at Deontay and Nate on the show, just about where this team is going to find it. And I think that's another huge, huge question.

Big year for the Dallas Cowboys. is a big year for you, John Moshota. I really appreciate the time, my friend. Always good to chat with you. Anytime, man. Anytime. All right, guys, that's all we got. Thank you so much to Mishol.

Thank you to John Moshota. Really appreciate the time from each of those guys. We're going to be back on Wednesday unless we have news about DeShan Watson, then we'll probably have a reaction to that in the feed. So keep an eye out for that if the news has not broken while you're listening to this. But either way, we will be back on Wednesday. It's August. We'll be having four shows a week coming to your one.

Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. That will be our schedule all the way through week one. Like a month and change until the season starts. It's kind of wild. But crank it back up to four episodes a week. Hope you guys are ready for that. I know that I certainly am. For now, please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice.

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