The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Bears, Vikings hire new GMs + head coach finalists across the NFL

Episode Date: January 27, 2022

The Bears and Vikings officially have new GMs. Robert Mays and Lindsay Jones discuss what we know about Ryan Poles and Kwesi Adofo-Mensah and what separated them in the hiring process. Then, they talk about the latest in each coaching search, the finalists, the favorites and much more.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. The athletic football show is presented by State Farm, because like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Get a quote today. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. Today's Thursday, January 27th. I'm Robert Mays. Joining me today. It's my good friend, Lindsay Jones.

Lindsay, how you doing? I'm great. I think I've finally come down from Divisional Round Weekend, and I'm now looking forward to championship weekend. There's a lot to process, and there was a big, come down to happen after what those games felt like. I feel like I'm the same way where I haven't really dug into my prep for the show I'll do with Nate digging into the conference championship games. I haven't been ready yet.

I've been thinking more about the last week's games that I was thinking about next week's games. So it's been a fun week. A lot of news has happened. If you guys have not listened to it yet, Lindsay talked with Kat Terrell, our Saints writer, about Sean Payton's retirement yesterday. I was on a plane, so I appreciate you guys knocking that out for me. We're going to talk a little bit more about that.

And then just the rest of the news that's come down over the last couple days in the NFL. Obviously, we've had some GM hires. The coaching cycle continues to turn. So we felt like the best way to use today was to kind of take a step back and think about, consider all of the news and what it means and where these coaching searches are at, all that. So first things first, I wanted to just talk about the Sean Payton thing a little bit because I didn't get a chance to yesterday. and I made a joke on Twitter right after it happened that Sean Payton walking away now as the Saints were $70 million over the cap and they didn't have a quarterback and it looks a little bit different than it has

over the last few years. It's like if you threw a party for a really long time and just bailed as your friends were about to clean it up, that's kind of how it feels. And I know it's not that bad in New Orleans. And it was a joke. It was a joke about property damage. It was not a joke about the state of the Saints. So I just wanted to talk about where they're at and what.

this job looks like, what the next coach is facing. Because Sean Payton is one of the best coaches of the last 20 years. I mean, what he did to resurrect that franchise and the state they were in before he took that job in 2006, not even counting what shape the city was in. And everything they had to deal with at that point, I know you and Kat talked about that. But, I mean, this has become one of the best most successful franchises in football over the last 15 years. And that was not always the case.

So he's left them much better off than how he found. them. But now you have a team that isn't kind of an interesting spot, right? And whatever coach takes over, it's a moment of transition kind of the same way it was last off season, where you have Drew Breeze retiring, they still don't have a quarterback, some of their best, most important players to Mario Davis, Cam, Jordan, guys like that are going to be in their mid to, early to mid-30s by the time next season starts. What do you just think about this gig overall and what the next person taking over will be facing and what they'll be stepping into in New Orleans? I mean, it's just questions up and down the entire organization.

And look, Sean Payton deserves so much credit for the job that he did over the 16 years that he was there. Certainly last season. I mean, I think you could argue that last season was one of the better coaching jobs that he did because there's a lot of reasons that the Saints probably shouldn't even bid in the playoff mix. And, you know, they were holding their breath until, you know, late on Sunday evening of week 18 to find out if they were going to get into the playoffs. and had the Rams not collapsed against the Niners late in week 18, they would have been in the playoffs. I mean, to get them in that position given the state of their quarterback position last year, it was a pretty remarkable coaching job that he did. But I just think whoever succeeds Sean Payton in this job, I think you're looking at a place

that are you trying to just continue the culture that Sean Payton has built? How much of that can sustain after he is gone? Is this the type of job where you hire Dennis Allen and you can kind of keep this on the track, but the standard is the standard? Or how much of their success is really unique to having Sean Payton, who is one of the best coaches of his generation, and Drew Breeze for the bulk of that time, who is a Hall of Fame quarterback, how much of that can continue once those two guys are gone? And I think that's not, we don't have the answers to those questions yet,

but that's definitely something that I think Mickey Loomis and Gail Benson and any candidate who is, interviewing for that job has to consider how much of it do you want to make it your own? How much of it do they want you to try to continue just on the track of, you know, what Sean Peyton built? And I'm just not even sure given the stay of the roster and their salary cap and all that stuff, how sustainable it is to even kind of continue exactly the type of team that they've had recently. So it's, it's not an unattractive job, but there are some pretty big questions, I think. I think the reasons that are, it is attractive is that there are still a lot of good players on the roster.

Yeah. There are still a lot of high-quality players at important positions, guys that they've resigned. We'll see what happens with Michael Thomas, obviously, but Ryan Ramcheck is going to be there, Marshaun Lattermore is going to be there. Alvin Camara is going to be there. They have good players on that team. And on defense, even if the core and the most important guys are getting up there, we still saw what that defense can be with Dennis Allen coordinating it.

So if he comes back, it would be reasonable to assume they would just kind of keep on what they're doing. But to me it's a much different situation. People are saying yesterday when I made that joke, well, you obviously don't know what the Saints do with the salary cap. Listen, guys, I know they'll get under the cap. They have to. We know they're going to do it, and they can move a lot of money around

and not lose players currently on the roster. That's fine. But Tehran Armstead is 31 and he's a free agent. Marcus Williams is a free agent. They had to tag him last year. What's going to happen with guys like that? And for me, the biggest difference between this set of circumstances, and what the Saints have dealt like over the last couple of years when they would keep kicking that financial can down the road.

One of the reasons that worked is because of that 2017 draft class. When you can get guys, those three guys, that group especially, in on those cheap deals, it helps mitigate the financial circumstances elsewhere. Now, no more cheap deals. Those guys have been paid. That group is expensive. And unless you're going to stumble into another historically great draft. F class, it's tough to cling to a quality roster the way they did from 2017 through, I would say, 2020.

It's just more difficult. There's still a lot of good players on this team, but they're all going to be a year older. There is no Sean Payton to kind of ease the burden of what they're going to look like offensively with uncertainty at quarterback. So it's still a good job in my mind. And the other side of this is they were so aggressive. And I don't blame them for operating as they have over the last few years. You're trying to get the most out of the breeze window.

You're trying to stretch the dollars as far as they can go within the rules of the cap. And if the pandemic hadn't happened, there's a chance they never bite the bullet because the cap keeps going up and up and up. But there are a lot of teams that just aren't willing to spend to the cap every single year. And that is another benefit in my mind of this job compared to others is that you have a general manager who is really like a business side guy. Oh, yeah. He's the money. He's the money guy. He is not interfering in the football.

decision. Exactly. So you have a general manager and ownership that is clearly willing to be aggressive and push all their chips into the table in the middle of the table consistently. That's a good thing. That's a really good thing. So I think there are a lot of interesting, compelling parts of this job. But I do also think you have to just admit that the Saints roster is not in the same place it was a couple years ago because guys are older, because guys aren't as cheap, and because you don't have a quarterback. So it's a notty complicated in its situation, but all situations where the coach leaves are typically like this. Well, and the other interesting thing about this job, and we'll probably get into this here in just a minute, too, is that we're here.

I mean, it is what? January 26th today, this job officially came open on January 25th, which usually would be like, oh, my God, they're so far behind. They're not really behind right now. None of these jobs have been filled. So I don't think there's any panic going on if you're Gail Benson or Mickey Loomis or whoever else there is that they're going to have in that search committee because basically all the candidates that you probably want to interview are still out there. And you still have time to go

ahead and make your pitch. No coaches have been hired. Yeah. I mean, they're behind in terms of if you want one of the guys who is coaching for a team that is still alive in the playoffs, you're behind because the rules say you can't conduct first interviews with those guys at this point. But if you want to talk to the popular candidates, the guys that have been interviewing everywhere, a lot of those guys, whether it's, you know, Dan Quinn or Kellynne Moore. Yeah, Brian Dable. Yeah, I mean, kind of the same group of guys that we're going to talk about. You can go ahead and talk to those guys.

None of those guys are committed yet. And as they move forward, they do have some candidates in the building. Sean Payton pointed out that Dennis Allen is certainly qualified. He, you know, he is a former head coach. He's been a widely successful defensive coordinator. And it makes sense that he would get consideration for this. And I did say this on the podcast yesterday with California. Catherine, but I think it would behoove them to cast a really wide net, get some new people

in that building, listen to what else is going on in the league, who might be able to bring in a different culture, who has new fresh ideas for offense and for whatever your quarterback situation might be. So at this point, I hope they bring in a lot of guys. I hope they interview some different people, even if ultimately they end up saying Dennis Allen is the right guy here, he knows how to win here, all of those sorts of things. Your defensive players love him. I just hope that they, you know, take this chance to, you know, do something to have it done for 16 years.

And that's interview some head coaching candidates. Yeah. And even the offensive staff has remained. Yeah. Stagnon is the right word. But it's consistent. You know, their continuity offensively is really unlike anything in the league. Joe Lombardi left this year to go be the Chargers offensive coordinator.

But he was the quarterback coach for a decade, except for a. two-year sojourn in Detroit. So they've had a lot of the same guys around there for a while. And I think it's benefited them. I think it's helped fuel their success in a lot of ways. But it is good to kind of refresh your, whatever your ideas in the building are, all that stuff. If they had eventually landed on Dennis Allen, I wouldn't be surprised.

And I think it would probably be a good choice based on his resume and what he's done as a defensive coordinator. So having a guy like that in close proximity is definitely a good thing. But they would be well served to see what else is out there and just listen to some people. All right. Yeah. It was certainly interesting that he was. one of the guys who was online to get, I believe, a second interview with the Bears.

And that got canceled right about the same time that Sean Payton announced he was stepping away from the team. And he start connecting the dots there. But even if Dennis Allen is the guy, they do have to comply with the Rooney rule. So they have to interview multiple minority candidates before they could go ahead and hire anybody. All right. Speaking of the Bears, the Bears hired a GM yesterday. Ryan Poles, 36 years old.

So the assistant director of player personnel in Kansas City. I think that was his title. always hard to keep track of what these guys are actually called within their organizations. Because they're changing. He actually got a promotion last year. So his title changed at some point in early 2021. So whatever it was. Very high up in Brett Beach's personnel department. Yes. So he handled some of the college scouting duties before he was promoted. I think obviously one of the benefits of getting those promotions is your purview changes. I think a lot of very forward thinking general managers look at people within their organization and try to diversify their job

title and responsibilities in order to prepare them for situations and opportunities like this. I made my requisite calls and texts yesterday. I assume you did the same. I mean, for me, obviously, it's a little bit different stakes because of the team he's taking over. But people that I respect just having a lot of good things to say about him. And they always do. You know, people always do in these moments. I think that when you have somebody like Ryan Poles who was the finalist for three different jobs,

the Giants job this year. The Giants job this year, the Vikings job this year, and the Panthers job last year. So he's somebody that's been in demand and has been talked about pretty highly over the last couple years. You're always going to have people with good reviews. But one of the things that really stuck out to me when I was talking to people who would work with him yesterday is just that he brings zero ego into the process. When you have guys in these sorts of gigs, that's not always the case. Even if you have guys that are smart and forward thinking and good at the job, it's not necessarily. necessarily somebody who's willing to listen to everyone else in the building.

And I feel like open-mindedness and humility as I've gotten to know more people in these personnel roles and talk to them about what it takes to be successful are huge parts of this. Are you going to build a staff where you're soliciting feedback from people, where you're creating a growth mindset culture and understanding that you don't know everything and understanding where your blind spots are? Brett Veitchin, the piece that you wrote for the 40 under 40 said something I thought was so important where he's going to turn over every rock. and that's what you want in this job.

And especially in a job like the Bears where you run it. There's no president. There's no anybody else on the football side. This is your show. And you have to turn over every rock. You have to be the one who sets the vision for the organization when you take it over for this franchise.

And having someone with that sort of mindset and who goes about it that way, it's encouraging. We never truly know with these jobs and these candidates and what they're going to do in these gigs because they're so different. It's so different to be a GM compared to anything else within a personnel department. So, you know, it's, I'm excited. Based on everything that I've heard, he seems like as good a candidate as any.

And we kind of go from here. You know, that's really all you can say at this point in my mind. Yeah. And now he, you know, we all saw the Twitter video that the bear has posted of him arriving in his car, a rental car. It's so cold today. A little unclear. Yes. Yes.

He looked cold, but he had a very, um, thick down jacket. And I don't think it was a super long walk. I think they gave him a good parking space. But because look, he's walking in. I mean, he's going straight from working on Brett Beach's staff a couple days ago being at Arrowhead Stadium, Shirley, for the greatest postseason game in NFL history to landing this job and having to hire a head coach. Because that's what comes next is, you know, the Bears made it very clear. And there's other teams that are doing this too, like the Vikings who were going to talk about in a second,

who they wanted to get their GM in first. and that GM would have a very strong role in who the head coach was going to be and going right into the head coaching interviews. So they're in it. They're interviewing head coaching candidates, second interviews now. You know, they'd kind of whittled down that list a little bit. But now they are ready. And, you know, everything I've heard about Ryan Poles dating back, you know, to last year, the year before that when we're, you know, you're just always compiling these lists of like who's next, who is out there. It was just always about his player evaluation and how deeply he looked.

into players and that he just had a really he's a really good eye for talent he played offensive line at boston college he actually was a teammate of matt ryan's he was an undrafted free agent for the bears which is kind of fun and he came to the league in 2008 which is like kind of blowing my mind that was the first year that i started covering the NFL and i'm like these you know the time moves very very quickly um but yeah it'll just be fun to see you know this my takeaway look and we're going to talk about the Vikings new hire, Kuesaidofa Mensa. It's just this new breed of GMs coming in. You know, the three guys who have been hired so far, this cycle, Joe Shane, and then these latest two guys, Ryan Poles in Keseido Fomenza, Joe Shane is the oldest at 42.

Yeah. These are not the same kind of old boys network. These are guys who have been raised in a different era of football evaluation in a digital era and analytics era. And it'll be really interesting to see what kind of head coaches that leads them to hire. And, you know, if there may be just more forward thinking in the way that they end up running these organizations. The other thing I want to say about Ryan Poles, I like the fact that even though he worked for this chief's entire career, he worked for three different front offices. It says a lot about him. So it says a lot about him.

And I just like when guys have that diversity of experience and just the models, you know, the way the Patriots are on their front office is very specific. and just their grading system and how they tier players, all that kind of stuff. That's one way to learn it. Then he works for John Dorsey. Now he works for Brett Veach. That's a really good thing. I like when coaches come from that background. I've said this before.

Kevin Stefanski was like that. Spent 14 years in Minnesota working for all those different coaches. And you kind of get to pick and choose a la carte how you want to be a coach. And you start compiling these ideas for when it's my chance, I'll take this from this guy and this from this guy. And it's like, I enjoy that because this is such a problem solving gig. It's about putting out fires and about understanding, all right, this is the issue, how do we fix it? And when you've seen three different types of approaches of how to do that, one of which ended

in a Super Bowl, a John Dorsey run that resulted in multiple playoff appearances, I just think that's a good background to have coming into this sort of job. All right. let's get to Quese Adolfo Mentsa, the new GM for the Vikings. I mean, it's a fascinating hire, right? This is somebody who was a finance guy before he got into the NFL. He's been in the NFL for less than a decade. Really, I think the first GM in the NFL to come from the analytics side.

You know, you've had guys that have a background in that and are fluent in it. Obviously, Andrew Barry, his boss is one of those people in Cleveland. But somebody that comes, Andrew Barry was a scout. He just happens to be fluent in those ideas. Quessie comes from that world. And I was talking to somebody in Cleveland when he was a candidate for the bear's job, just asking that person about Quessie. And he's saying just extreme emotional intelligence along with just IQ as well.

Somebody who is very good at dealing with people. Again, that growth mindset idea of I'm going to kind of stretch my legs as far as I can to understand everything and every single tool that can help us. And that's the type of person that I think is really interesting, fascinating choice for one of these jobs. I mean, obviously, it's going to be a real different feel from Rick Spielman to this guy running the organization. But in a way that I appreciate. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it's a really, really interesting hire.

And it's showing that the Vikings were willing to do things different. And really they were looking at this opening different. They very clearly interviewed a very diverse group of candidates with different backgrounds. And they were willing to do something that nobody else in the NFL had done. But too, I want to be clear. And I know you do as well, too, that Quese Adopo Menza, he came up in analytics, but especially over his years in Cleveland, he did everything in the personnel department. What Barry told you I thought was fascinating.

Yeah. Do you want me to read? I mean, I'll read it a couple of. I'd love just read it straight away. because I think it's such a telling comment. Yeah. So Adolfo Men said now was 40, but he was 40 now. He was on 39 last summer and we did our 40 under 40.

And I, you know, kind of basically straight up asked Andrew Bray. Well, what does he do for you? Yeah. And it's an important question when you talk about these kind of jobs. Right. And he's because sometimes these titles are somewhat ambiguous, right? He said, really. And there could be this idea of like, oh, he's your analytics guy.

But what Andrew Barry said is really he does everything. He helps me run the day to day of the team across all. all groups within football operations. The other thing, though, is that he's part of the tighter senior group for all strategic decisions for the team. That's not just roster contract management. It's hiring. It's staffing.

It's people management. It's crisis management. Basically, he's the true assistant GM and almost like a mini version of the GM's job responsibilities. And then without getting too specific, because he does have his data background, he's actually added some pretty strong insights to our draft and free agent modeling with player valuation. So that sounds amazing.

Like that's exactly the type of person I'd be interested in to be the general manager of my NFL team. And then I think the one other thing that I took away last summer when I was really, this is when I was really kind of digging into like, you know, who's who's next, right? Was because, you know, he does have this analytics background. And I thought Andrew Barry said something that was really, really interesting is that sometimes when there's a guy who, you know, is working analytics, you can kind of be walled off from like the football guys. But Quessie always did this really good job of. making everybody understand why it's important, bridging, you know, making these bridges between all of the different departments. And yes, he oversaw the Niners kind of research group is what, what they called it. But he was really good at communicating why this mattered and getting all

of like the football guys to understand why this was important. And that just says a lot about kind of his people skills. And, you know, this is a team now in Minnesota who, you know, they did things one way under Rick Spielman for a very, very long time. And that's a lot. That's not to say that Rick Spielman did things the wrong way by any means. I mean, they were very successful under Spielman's tenure, but they're going to come in and have completely fresh set of eyes, fresh ideas. This is a very forward-looking progressive organization when it comes, you know, especially comparatively around the NFL in terms of, you know, their diversity and a lot of modeling and stuff that they've done there. And this is just another step forward in that direction.

And, you know, they have some, I thought this was one of the more attractive jobs, both GM and head coaching-wise, but there are some big questions they're going to have to face, specifically Kurt Cousins' future, probably beyond 2022. And now you have a guy who is a completely different background who's going to be leading that decision-making process. The idea of communicating and being able to talk to people about these ideas specifically on the analytics world, that's always been the most underrated part of this conversation. Who are the messengers for these ideas? And can those messengers relay them to your coaching staff? can because if there's a wall that goes up about how you communicate this kind of stuff,

it ceases to matter. You can have the most robust analytics department of all time, but if you don't have decision makers that are receptive to those sorts of ideas, both in the front office and on the coaching staff, it only goes so far. So having somebody who can talk to anybody and is fluent in football now and feels comfortable in that world, that sort of stuff is really important. I think that's why the Browns were interesting,

because Andrew Barry, who is very into this kind of stuff, is a scout. He's a CrossFit maniac. He does not look like somebody who's going to be pouring over the computers and doing that kind of stuff. And I think that matters. So the fact that he was worked on the football side, and, again, you can kind of talk across that aisle is really, really important. I'm fascinated by what they're going to end up doing there and what it's going to look like. All right. Let's get into where these coaches' searches kind of stand here.

So let's start with the Bears and the Vikings just because they do have their GM. now. So far, it sounds like the finalist in Chicago, Jim Caldwell, Dan Quinn, Matt Iberfluse. Not the sort of group I would have expected when this whole thing started based on where the Bears are, based on where Justin Fields is. What do you think of that trio and what it says about how they're trying to go about this? Obviously, there could be guys added to that list now that polls is part of the conversation and part of the process, but those are the three people that believe that have been confirmed for second interviews so far. Yeah, so these are, especially when you talk about Jim Caldwell and Dan Quinn, these are former head coaches, reputations for being great teachers, very stabilizing, respected presences.

You know, they would come in and bring immediate credibility, I think, to this team. Caldwell has this very extensive offensive backgrounds. He's the one finalist on this list that, you know, is the offensive-minded head coach. in theory you'd think he would want to call plays would be the guy most responsible for developing Justin Fields. The other two guys, you would have to know, okay, who is your offensive coordinator? What is your plan now for Justin Fields? So, you know, that's the big question, right? You know, we don't know a ton of like, who is Dan Quinn's pick to be offensive coordinator. And that's going to be a big question wherever Dan Quinn ends up. He's also a finalist for a couple other jobs that we're going to talk about. But when you look at that group, it says to me that the Bears

are looking for kind of that, just like that CEO kind of presence. Like, we just want to have credibility. I guess that's the word that I keep coming back to and stability and those sorts of things. And what do you think? What's your take on that? That's exactly what it is. I think you want somebody who's going to come in and be able to take the wheel from the start. And I understand the appeal of that, right?

I think Jim Caldwell did a better job in Detroit than anybody had by three or fourfold. considering the lack of success they've had there over the last decade, last two decades. Dan Quinn obviously went to a Super Bowl. He's somebody that's incredibly well respected. He's going to bring that presence from the start. Mattie Refluse is someone who's been around a very long time. I've talked to him a few different times during his NFL tenure. And I've always been impressed by him.

And I think that he'd be an interesting idea as far as having that CEO type role. But with all of these things, it's the reason I go back to it over and over and over again. of why I, all things being equal, would want a play calling offensive head coach. Because that idea of who's your offensive coordinator is no longer concerned. That no longer becomes the most important question, especially when you trade it up in the draft, pick a quarterback in the top 15, and he's going into his second year after, let's be kind and say it was an uneven first season in terms of the support around him. So that's my only concern is now you have to really have,

faith in whatever the staff you're bringing with you is like on the offensive side of the ball. And it's hard to do that. It's just one more layer of difficulty if you don't hire that offensive-minded head coach who's going to be that rock at the center of everything. If you can't take that away, talk about stability. It just increases stability. It allows you to be good and relevant year after year after year because you have this centerpiece of your vision for the team. Where offense is king in the NFL, the most important part of defining what your offense is going to be season in, season out, you can't remove that piece of the puzzle from the equation.

And if you're going to do it a different way, you better make sure you have a really strong idea of, all right, this is my offensive staff. This is why the staff is built like this. If I lose my offensive coordinator, I feel like this quarterback coach would be able to step into that role and do a good job. I remember talking to Brandon Staley last year after he got to the job as a defensive-minded head coach. And those kind of things were on his mind. It's like I'm not going to subcontract the offense out to someone else and not talk about it,

not think about it, not have a plan for if this goes well. And you have to have that thought process as a defensive-minded head coach. You have to be two, three steps ahead for how you're going to build this thing. And if Dan Quinn has that and he has a really good staff, I have a lot of faith in that. But that is a hugely important part of what those interviews would be like in my mind. Yeah, I mean, and Dan Quinn's most successful run as a head coach was when he had Kyle Shanahan. The best play calling in the NFL was his office coordinator. So like he's seen how it can work and he can also see how quickly having a successful, successful offensive coordinator that guy's going to get hired and how hard it is to recreate that and fill that job again.

So put on your Bears fans hat for just one second. If those are the three guys, if those are the finalists, which one do you want? I'd probably say Dan Quinn. I think that, again, the presence part of it. And, you know, Jim Caldwell, and I don't want to, I don't want me to be ages here, but he's 67. You know, he's been out of the league for a couple years. He had some health issues in Miami. I think that has to be a consideration when you're thinking about somebody who's going to inject some energy into the franchise.

And Dan Quinn is that. You know, Dan Quinn is a ball of energy. And if you really want that jumpstart, I can totally understand it. But I also can definitely see where Bill Pollian is looking at Jim Caldwell and seeing him as a steadying hand because that's exactly what he would be. Bill Pulley is a huge hand in this process in Chicago. They've been open about that. He obviously hired Jim Caldwell in Indianapolis. So there are just so many things to consider. I think it would probably be Quinn, but with all these guys, there are a lot of more questions that have to be answered even after you hire them because

of what the structure of it is going to look like. All right. Let's get to Minnesota. Just run through some of the names here. A lot of the names we've already talked about, you know, or that we will talk about a bunch of different times over the course of this conversation. Nathaniel Hackett, Kellan Moore, guys who have been interviewed multiple places, Jonathan Gannon. A couple names that they've interviewed that not everyone else has that peak my interest right now, especially. D'emiko Ryan's Rahim Morris. And then Todd Bowles and Kevin O'Connell, the Rams offensive coordinator, has also been interviewed by the Vikings.

What jumps out to you about this list specifically? I mean, it's a diverse list. Yes, it goes a lot of places. Yeah, outside of Todd Bowles, they're all pretty young. I think they're all under. And Nathaniel Hackett, Hackett's in his 40s. He's in his early 40s.

He does not seem like it, though. He seems like he's 23 years old and the amount of energy he has. Yeah, we're talking ball of energy. He and Dan Campbell could probably compare caffeine orders, would be my guess, which would be fun in the same division. But the bulk of these guys are, you know, they're kind of some young and up-and-coming guys. Then you have Rahim Morris and Todd Bowles,

who are guys who have been waiting to get their second opportunity. And then, you know, three of these guys, D'Amico Ryan's, Rahim Morris, and Kevin O'Connell are also in the playoffs right now. So they seem willing to be patient. Obviously, they wanted to get their general manager in their first. But I like that they're looking at both sides of the ball. You know, I think given where that roster is, they've got some really nice defensive pieces. But, you know, this is a Vikings team that has played defense one way for a really, really long time. Yeah.

And this is a chance to, okay, let's maybe that maybe we need a different defense. of voice in here. We can, you know, there's pieces you can work around, but you bring somebody else in. And basically everybody on this list, I think, is, you know, really respected in league circles. You said you were really, you're the Rahim Morris and Dome Mirohians piqued your interest. We're going to talk about, I think, a couple of these guys throughout this, because these guys are interviewing other places. But what is it about them that has you intrigued when it comes to Minnesota?

Rahim Morris's background and just how varied his experiences are since he was last to head coach, coaching. on both sides of the ball, coaching in a couple different defensive systems even. You know, what they were doing in Atlanta when he first got there compared to what they were doing in Atlanta by the end, a lot more pressure, a lot more man. And then now what he's doing with the Rams and just there's a benefit to that. There's such a benefit to coming in. And they were open about that this summer.

You know, talking to some people like a Giro Evereaux on that RAM staff where they were just having to, there was like a line of communication about what their ideas were on defense last year. and Rahim was the new elements of that. You know, it's so rare to have a defensive staff mostly stay intact and you swap the coordinator out who wasn't there. So just that process and what their defense looks like now, they're playing extremely well.

And, you know, he's been open about the fact that he was probably too young when he got the first job. He probably wasn't ready. And if you're looking at a guy who has seen a lot of football, seen a lot of different types of football, everyone has nothing but glowing things to say about his personality and the way he would handle that kind of job, I just think he's a really interesting candidate.

And I love the idea of Domeco Ryans as a head coach. I wrote a story about the Cardinals this fall, and I was talking to Jordan Hicks and about his relationship with Domingo Rions when Jordan Hicks was a rookie. Because he was drafted more or less to replace Jordan Hicks. And that can be an awkward interaction between guys, right? And he was just saying that D'Miko was, there was this strange blend and really impressive. blend of somebody who took his job really seriously and was thorough about it and really smart and dedicated and detailed but never let it get to him just every single day had this smile and just kind this evervessence about who he was in the building and wouldn't you want that as a head coach

somebody who can relate to players who is extremely detail oriented and really just checks every single box but is also somebody who is never going to ride the weight. of the league. That's exactly the type of presence I would want in that room. And you look at what their defenses looked like this year, and especially in some of these huge moments, I think he's done himself a lot of favors in the work that he's done with that unit this year overall. Yeah, they did not take a step back at all after losing Robert Salah last year. And we didn't know what that was going to be like this year because Demico Ryan's had never been a coordinator before, had never called a defense before, a ton of respect for kind of the work he did as a position coach.

But obviously, Kyle Shanahan trusts him. Kyle Shanahan has been around him for a very long time. You know, Shanahan was an assistant coach in Houston when Ryan's was playing there. So has known him a really long time as a ton of trust in him. You know, maybe it's early for him. He's been a coordinator for one year. He hasn't been coaching that long. But we're seeing guys, you know, coaches come from everywhere now.

It's not rare for a guy who's 34 or 35 years old without a ton of previous coordinator game play-calling experience. because if you're a good leader, you're a good leader. And, you know, this could be everybody spent so long, right, looking for the next hot young Sean McVeigham, candidate. Now people are maybe they're looking for the next Mike Vrable. And he certainly is in the Mike Vrable kind of mold. 100% he is. It's a great comparison.

I didn't even thought about that. All right. Let's get to the Giants here who hired Joe Shane. Is there a general manager? We haven't really talked about that. The news came down at kind of a weird time, kind of a gap in our recording schedule. I think it makes total sense. Like, when you look at what he was, what?

what that process was like in Buffalo. It was a total tear down. It was a total tear down of what was a fairly expensive team when they got there and had to retool it. And everything that Brandon Bean has said is that Joe Shane was right next to him as they did all of these things. So I think that experience of,

they're having to start from scratch with that Buffalo team and what they've done in terms of building it into what is essentially a model organization now, which is kind of crazy to think about. He's as good a candidate as any for that job. And then you look at the coaching campaign, candidates. It shouldn't be a surprise that Brian Dable, the Bill's offensive coordinator, has already gotten a second interview for this gig. Some other people they've looked at, Dan Quinn, Lua and

Arummo, the Bengals defensive coordinator who was with Shane, I think, at some point, maybe in Miami, and then was also with the Giants at some point. And then, again, Leslie Frazier, the Bill's defensive coordinator has also been interviewed for this job. Does it feel like this is Brian Dable's gig to lose to you? It seems like, I mean, they definitely rushed in to get their first interview done with Brian Dable, like, just under the wire because of, like, I mentioned, these weird rules that if you're still live in the championship game, you can't connect a first interview. So, um, look, I think they were both still in Buffalo when it happened. It was literally the day that Joe Shane was formally hired, but hadn't yet been introduced. So I don't think they had to do

a ton of like logistics to get Joe Shane and Brian Dable on the phone with each other or on a Zoom call together. They were able to figure that out. Um, you know, they've a call they would have had anyway. They just happened to have John Merr on it. Yeah, absolutely. We're just going to add them to the Zoom. It's fine. We'll send you the link. But yeah, I mean, I think this is another place where, you know, the quarterback is the number one thing that you have to figure out. And we did hear from John Mara today, the owner of the Giants, who expressed a ton of confidence in Daniel Jones and was really kind of up front about saying, we messed this up.

What a shocking comment, right? I mean, very rarely do you hear that from somebody in that sort of position. I mean, he was explicit about the fact that they have failed him up to this point. And he's not wrong, but you just don't often hear that. Yeah. So it's, and look, they have, they have failed him. He's been changing coordinators. They haven't protected him well at all up front.

He's been taking a ton of hits. You know, I think there's some, some of his struggles have been his own fault, a lot of the turnover issues and those sorts of things. But yeah, he has not had the institutional support that you typically would need to give a first drum pick quarterback to make him successful. The type of stuff that Buffalo put. in place for Josh Allen. So, you know, it would make a ton of sense because of Dable's history. When you talk about guys who have an extensive and diverse background in terms of places that

they've worked, he's not, you know, one scheme. I came from one offensive background. I can only do one thing. He can do a lot of things. But the fact that he has been most successful with Josh Allen, who is the most mobile quarterback, you know, the dual threat kind of quarterback. Daniel Jones, very mobile, you know, very good with his legs, probably not. quite as good as Josh Allen and running people over. It might be faster than Josh. I need to compare 40 times maybe. But I think there's a lot to like when you think of what can this guy do for our number

one asset, which is your quarterback. Yeah. I mean, in a quarterback-centric league, the bills built the most quarterback-centric offense in football in ways that combined a ton of different ideas like you mentioned. I think Brian Daibble in a football level was as interesting as any of the candidates that were going to talk about in this cycle. I thought he was a very intriguing option for Chicago, and I think still should be, even if they've kind of narrowed this list down. You know, I did a big story.

When I say big, I just mean I talked to Brian Davel for a while and talked to other people who had played for him last year when it seemed like he might get a job based on how well the bills are playing on offense. And he's been open about the fact that he was not open-minded enough early on as an offensive coordinator. His stops in places like Kansas City, Cleveland, he was young. And you come from one place where you were a Patriots head coat or a Patriots assistant. You have seen it done one way. And he was pretty upfront about the fact that he did not have his voice at that point as a coach. And that's something that he really developed over time. And no, there are little things.

You know, when he called plays on the sideline, he sometimes apparently would get a little too into it. And going up into the booth kind of helped him regulate as he was, figuring out the game and getting a feel for it can't be an offensive play caller from the booth when you're the head coach like little things like that where there's always some projection involved in jobs like this but i think that over the last couple years he has certainly bolstered his resume as well as anybody that we're going to talk about in this entire group one of the most interesting things to me for given the pace of this coaching cycle is that all of these jobs are still open which means like all these coordinator jobs are still open

we haven't gotten to see usually by this point a couple jobs. And so you can kind of start matching candidates here and there. It's going to be wild like the next two weeks, really, as these staffs get built. So I'm just, I always want to know, okay, let's connect the dots. Okay, who would be his defensive coordinator then, you know, who are Dan Quinn's preferred offensive, you know, coordinator. It's Mattie Ruffaloose, who would he want to bring? This part of the jigsaw puzzle is always really intriguing to me. Yeah, 100%.

All right. You want to get to the Raiders here? Let's do the Raiders. Much shorter list, it seems like they're going to try to lock down their GM search before they hire a coach just based on the amount of people that they've looked at so far. I believe the only three outside candidates that they've interviewed at this point are Domingo Ryan's, Todd Bowles, and Gerard Mayo. Is that right? That's the information that we have as well. Our beat writer is Vic Tafer and Tashon Reed.

That's the list of guys that they have. I know Vic is doing a lot more reporting today. He's been teasing that he's got some stories to come. So probably by the time this is published, Vic will have some new reporting out of there. But yeah, it's a short list. It's an interesting list. It's obviously a very defensive focused list. And then obviously Rich Biscosha, who we talked about last week when he got his chance to kind of make his pitch.

Still seems like he probably has like a real outside chance, maybe a long shot there, that it's, but that it'll be one of these other guys. But they have done a lot of GM interviews, like cast a really wide ranging list there of guys that they're interviewing for the GM job from kind of all over the NFL. I mean, in-house candidates, you know, at Dodds, the assistant GM from the Colts, who has been an interesting candidate over this process,

Dave Ziegler from New England, Trey Brown, who is a scout for the Bengals, Champ Kelly, who I believe was the assistant director of player personnel for Chicago, Rustin Webster, who's been GM before, and Brandon Hunt, who is apparently one of the guys that was in line to potentially succeed Kevin Colbert in Pittsburgh. So we'll see what happens with the guy they ended up hiring for that job and whether that's going to shape their coaching search at all,

but not a lot to really report on that side. The Jags can't say the same for them. There have been some rumblings here over the last 12 hours or so, 12, 18 hours, that Byron Lefich is maybe, the leader in the clubhouse there. I think Rick Stroud, reporter in Tampa said that the Jags are trying to formalize a deal with Byron Lefich.

Adam Schaefter, I believe, said that I amflus was still in the mix. So not anything confirmed, but I think Byron Lefwich would make a lot of sense as the head coach at the Jags on like three different levels. Yeah, and I will say Jeff Howe, one of our national reporters also added that Nathaniel Hackett is

still in the mix. Somebody who, again, knows the organization very well. He was the offensive coordinator there when during the Bordel's experience. Yeah. You know, obviously Byron Lefowitz has, you know, history there. I mean, he was a first round pick. He played several seasons there.

He understands Jacksonville. He understands that fan base. And, you know, he's kind of come up the right way in terms of he knows how to develop quarterbacks. He knows how to work with veteran quarterbacks. And, you know, I'd love to see him get this opportunity. And he has been calling plays. So if we want to hang this whole, like, is he a play caller type of thing?

He does call plays. And he's been calling plays for Tom. Brady, the greatest guy that there is. So it just would make a lot of sense. My one concern is that, you know, the concern about this job is kind of the, the Trent Balke of it all and how stable is this and what kind of situation is whoever the head coach is walking into. I really like Byron Letfuch and I want it to work for him and I want it to be like a healthy working environment. So I just hope it ultimately takes that job. He gets a chance to really kind of grow in it. and have time to fully put a plan in place for Trevor Lawrence.

I want to see him work with Trevor Lawrence. I feel like he could be a really important presence for Trevor Lawrence, having somebody who played in the league, having somebody who's worked with Tom Brady, work with young quarterbacks relatively with James Winston or the end of his rookie contract. Bruce Ariens, when he was trying to coax Byron and Lefich to coaching, Byron Lefich did not want to coach.

He was like, I'm good golfing. This is fun. I'm enjoying it. He was enjoying the golf course. Understandably so. You're a quarterback in the NFL for a decade. You have the paychecks to go along with that gig. Even as a backup, you're probably making a million five a year over your last four or five years.

You put that money away in the right way. You don't have to do a lot of work after you're done. But Bruce Ariens thought he would be a really good coach. And he brought him in and he wasn't a coordinator right away. You know, this idea that Josh McAlliard's getting head coaching opportunities after never having coach. No, Byron Leffert, he was an assistant quarterback coach. Yes. Well, yeah, he came in. He was like one of the Bill Walsh diversity interns.

Yep. Like lowest level coaching interns that you can get in Arizona and really worked his way up. And Bruce Ariens saw a lot in him. I mean, obviously they worked together in Pittsburgh when Byron Leftwood was a backup quarterback for Ben Rathesberger. So he knew Ariens. He knew Aryans system. But Bruce also saw a ton that this guy has potential and he will be a really good coach. He understands what quarterbacks need. So, you know, he's paid his dues for a very long time.

you know, I do wonder that this process everywhere has taken a really long time. And I wonder how much of that is because of what Byron Lefich and Todd Bowles to a degree too did last year and how much their postseason work. You know, Byron Lefich probably should have gotten a job last cycle. But people were too late. They rushed to hire guys like Urban Weyer way too early last time instead of letting this play out and seeing like, okay, this is who we need to be interviewing next time. And, you know, he could make a lot of sense there. I think the other guys, though, too, you know, Eber Fluse and Hackett, if those guys are truly in the mix as well. You know, obviously Nathaniel Hackett was formerly assistant coach in Jacksonville.

And we know he knows how to work with quarterbacks given all of his time there in Rogers. If Byron Lepard which is going to bring that Bruce Ariens offense with him, I would love to see Trevor Lawrence in that system, somebody with his physical skill set and that type of aggressive offense. Let's just get him some guys to catch the ball, please. But like you just said, let's get some past catchers in there before we start getting down that road. All right.

Denver Broncos, why don't you lay this out for me? Where are we with the Denver Broncos coaching search? Yeah. So the Broncos, George Payton interviewed a gazillion candidates. It was kind of a who's who list. Eric B. enemy, Brian Callahan, Jonathan Gannon, Luke Getsy, Aaron Glenn, Nathaniel Hackett, Gerard Mayo, Kellan Moore, Kevin O'Connell, Dan Quinn. Sounds like they have settled on three finalists, Dan Quinn, Nathan Quinn, Nathan

Hacett and Kevin O'Connell, and they have brought those guys or they're starting to bring those guys back for second interviews. There was a lot of drama on Broncos Twitter the other night about when Hackett's plane back to Green Bay was going to take off. One of my buddies, Andrew Mason, who's covered the Broncos for a long time, like had the flight tracker up waiting, you know, it was supposed to leave it, you know, 530 and then it was 545 and then 605 and 630. and then, you know, Mike Cliss, who is, who was my longtime beat partner when I covered the Broncos. His, his beat now is where did the coaching candidates go to dinner and what, what did they order? So the big, the big drama in Denver this week was that they didn't go to L.A's steakhouse. They went to Los Dos Portrios Mexican restaurant and had tamales for dinner. I can't.

I'm really glad we're getting the important information here. I cannot. I cannot get enough of it. And, like, I mean, I've been listening to sports radios. I've been driving around. And, like, they're breaking down while they didn't go to the steakhouse. So what does that mean? And the fact that they got tamales, does that mean he, like, really wants to be part of the Colorado culture? And I mean, I mean, it's wild.

But, you know, look, this has been a very deliberate process. They seem willing to wait to interview Kevin O'Connell again. They will have to wait to do that because he is obviously still alive in the playoffs with the Rams. They might have competition for Dan Quinn. You know, if Dan Quinn is the guy they really, really want. they might need to get that done. You know, or if Nathaniel Hacca was the guy they really wanted, they probably shouldn't let him, you know, leave the Mexican restaurant.

So, you know, I don't know if there's like a solid, like the front runner there. I mean, there was a lot of smoke that like a deal was going to get done a couple days ago. It hasn't happened yet. But yeah, those are the guys that they, that they have seemed to have settled on. Hackett still seems to make to me the most sense here given what they need. that Rogers goodwill. What they need offensively. And yeah, you know, maybe it's a Rogers package deal.

But, yeah, still kind of in limbo here in Denver. And stay tuned. Follow at Mike Clis for details on what all the finalists are eating. It's my favorite bit. I have. It's been a couple years. But yeah. I've never talked to him before.

Yeah, really smart guy. You know, obviously he played quarterback. Kind of similar where he was, you know, a backup quarterback. So a couple years ago, I did a story for the athletic about kind of this new wave of like young former backup quarterbacks who are I talked to Kevin O'Connell for that story. I talked to Byron Lefich for that story. I talked to Dan Rolovsky for that story right as he was like just breaking NAD ESPN about like why guys who are primarily backup quarterbacks have kind of become these hot coaching candidates, right? And kind of on this on this trajectory.

The best guy to talk to in any single locker. Yeah, it's I tell that anytime I talk to like young NFL reporters and they ask for and that's one of the biggest losses to, not having open lock room right now. It's because you don't get to talk. You don't get to talk to those guys. But there's a couple. Mike Kafka is kind of in that mix. You know, that was Doug Peterson's Matt Nagy.

They were all backup quarterbacks, right? I've been told by multiple people, multiple coaches in the NFL, that the moment Sean Mannion decides he wants to be a coach, he will be their quarterback coach. Guys like that. Yeah, they just, they basically are doing it already. Like, they're kind of translators between the head coach or the play caller and the rest of the quarterback room. You know, they, these guys can put together really long NFL careers because of the way

that they are in that room. And Kevin O'Connell is one of those guys. He told a story that time I talked to him about he was playing for the Jets. It was the Rex Ryanera Jets. And they basically told him like, you might want to just start. Like, let's, let's just skip this part and get right to the coaching career because that's really where your future is. It's not going to be as a quarterback here.

And, you know, he came really kind of having. highly recommended, you know, keep an eye on this guy. He's going to be rising. That was when he was with Washington. Obviously, then, you know, Sean McVeigh scooped him up and now he's kind of like the next, you know, hot candidate on the Sean McVeigh tree. So, you know, he's interviewed. Poor Sean McFa cannot hold a single member of his offensive coaching staff for more than 18 months. Yeah. And he has another, and we'll talk about them soon. He has another offensive candidate, Thomas Brown, who was interviewed with the dolphins. So, you know, he's never. He's never. He's never. He's developing them on like multiple levels now of of um look at think about the offensive coaches he's lost he lost sack taylor

he lost matt will floor went to tennessee after i think only one year in in los angeles uh he lost Shane waldron is now the offensive coordinator for the seahawks so three guys who were centerpieces of his offensive coaching staff in his four years with the team are now gone and now he could potentially lose Kevin o'connell and i mean it's it's kind of ridiculous it's understandable right but it's kind of funny that every single year they seem to lose somebody from that staff. Yeah. So we'll see what happens with Denver. I mean, this is their group of guys that they have right now.

You know, the big unanswered question still remains quarterback. And that's the number one thing that I would want to know from all of these two guys. Well, one, what is your plan for the guys that we currently have on the roster? Drew Locke and potentially Teddy Bridgewater. But what is ultimately your offensive vision? Because this is a team that has to learn how to, they have to learn how to score. points. It just hasn't had a quarterbacks next year.

That coach has got a different sort of challenge in front of him. All right. The name on this list for the Broncos, by the way, next year at this time, I have a feeling we will be talking about him as a head coaching candidate is Aaron Glenn. I think a year from now, Aaron Glenn is going to be somebody that is going to get three or four of these interviews and is going to be somebody that's in real high demand. I would not be surprised by it at all. And he's a name we should watch for New Orleans right now as well.

Agreed. Yeah. That's a good point. Yep. So if you don't know, Aaron Glenn is the Lions defensive coordinator. I think he did a very good job this year. And he was the Saints secondary coach for a very long time.

You know, they continued to develop guys at that position very well. I was really excited for him to be a coordinator. And I think he did an excellent job this year. And with a little bit more defensive talent in Detroit next year, would see what another year can do for him. All right. You mentioned the dolphin search.

Lay this out for me because I have not been following the dolphin search as closely as some of these other ones. They've been one of the more quiet searches, right? Maybe they're not putting together like the videos and stuff that some of the other teams are doing. But what I've been- How weird is that, by the way? How this, the in-house coaching search media and content arm is just never something I thought would exist 10 years ago. And it's not entirely new because I remember when the Broncos fired Josh McDaniels and they had their opening.

I was on the Broncos beat at the time. So that was what, 2000 after. So it was like January of 2011. And they had. had like a camera crew in the car picking up all of their candidates. And I remember talking to a bunch of like the coaches agents being like, what is going on? Isn't this weird? Because, you know, it's guys like John Fox being like, what the, what the off's going on with you in my car. But that was basically when it started. And teams being a lot more transparent about who they

were interviewing. It wasn't quite as much of a secretive process. Well, it's all about are you turning over every rock, right? Are we exhausting all of our options? Trust me, guys, we're talking to candidate you've heard of. Yeah. But he's the fan base. Like that's exactly what it is. Um, and I think there was also something that they like, they knew that all of us and camera TV crews and stuff were going to be like hanging out at the airport.

So they were just trying to like, we're going to own this part instead of like you getting your surveillance video of the guy being a baggage claim and the player engagement director standing there with a little sign waiting to pick them up. But except for the bears where they picked up their GM, the owner picked up the GM candidate at baggage claim this week. I love, I loved it. What a weird love in pop operation. Look, you know that somebody loves you when they not only pick you up at the airport,

but they actually come in to help you with your bags. No one in my life would do that for me, not a single person, let alone a stranger that is interviewing me for a job. I only get that assistance when I'm also traveling with my child on a car seat and all that sort of stuff. But anyway, so here's where we are with the dolphins. I'm told they've interviewed Dan Quinn, Kellynne Moore, Brian Dable, Leslie Frazier, Mike McDaniel. the offensive coordinator for the 49ers. Thomas Brown. Everyone knows who Mike McDaniels by now.

Right. Everyone on the football internet knows who Mike McDaniels. Yeah. If you're following zombie deadspin, you'll know who Mike McDaniel is today. Oh, good Lord. That is neither here nor there. Thomas Brown, who I just mentioned from Sean McVeigh, staff of the Rams, and Vance Joseph. So that was their first round of interviews.

I don't believe they're to the finalist stage yet. They doesn't seem like they've started really bringing guys in for second interviews at this point. But it's a lot of the same guys we've already talked about, right? Quinn, Kellanmore, Brian Dable. And then a couple other guys that we haven't talked about. Mike McDaniel hasn't interviewed for other jobs. Vance Joseph, a guy that I know you wrote about earlier this year because of his work with the dolphins. He was a former assistant coach with the dolphins or excuse me with the Cardinals, but you wrote about him with the Cardinals.

But he was a former assistant coach with the Dolphins before he took the head coaching job with the Broncos. So he's familiar to Chris Greer with that organization. I think he definitely deserves a chance to at least interview for for another head coaching job. There were a lot of kind of just bad situations that he got caught up within Denver. I totally agree. And I also think that he's done a pretty admirable job as the defenseer coordinator for the Cardinals. I mean, it didn't end well, but they had two top 10 defenses by DVOA over the last two years without players. Like, who are the best players in the Cardinals defense?

They didn't have Chandler Jones last year. and they were still a top 10 defense. This year, I mean, they have Buda Baker's an all pro, but there aren't a lot of proven guys on that defense in Arizona. And I thought they did a really good job. I mean, they cobbled together that secondary outside of Buda Baker this year. 100%. Got a lot, did a lot of developing with Isaiah Simmons.

Like, I didn't love their plan for him as a rookie. It was just hard because he, you know, he's kind of this, you know, nebulous player where, like, what do you do with him? But they clearly had a plan for him in his second year. So he's in that mix. as well. So I'm not sure exactly who's going to be the right guy there, but you got to have a plan for Tua or whoever the quarterback is going to be after Tua.

Or whoever the quarterback is going to be. Probably like people skills, how you interact with everybody in the building is going to be a really big deal there. So, you know, I don't know if I have an ideal candidate of that, of that mix. Leslie Frazier maybe. It would make sense. I mean, it's funny because a lot of these teams are, not necessarily going the exact opposite direction like they do in so many of these other cases, right, where we want the guy who's the most different to the guy that we just had.

Leslie Frazier wouldn't be that. Vance Joseph wouldn't be that. I mean, Dan Quinn wouldn't be that. You think about defensive-minded head coaches and defensive coordinators, but we'll see what happens. Last one before we get out of here, Texans. Talking about weird ones. They've interviewed Brian Flores and Gerard Mayo because, of course, they have.

They interviewed Heinz Ward. And Luke McCowan, apparently. Has he gotten officially interviewed or did they talk to him about the judge? Josh McCown. Yes, yes, yes. Luke McCown would be great, by the way. Luke McCown is a fantastic guy. No, they have formally interviewed Josh McCown and they formally interviewed Heinz

Ward as well. So yeah, I mean, this has kind of been their mix. Obviously, Brian Flores and Gerard Mayo have the New England background, the New England ties if you're thinking about Nick Casario and Jack Easterby. Which you probably should be. Which you probably think. They might have wanted to hire Josh McCown last year. And look, we were talking about longtime backup quarterbacks and why they make good play callers and head coaches.

And Josh McCown was the greatest backup quarterback forever, right? He was the guy you brought in whenever you had a rookie that needed to be developed or you needed a guy to come in and just keep the ship from sinking for a few weeks. He just has zero NFL coaching experience at this point. So that's not to say that he wouldn't be a good NFL head coach. He's just he's not like Brian Leftwich who came in and worked as a coaching intern and kind of worked his way up the NFL ranks. He would be coming straight from basically being an NFL backup quarterback. Did he do some high school coaching at this point? I mean, he's he's kind of would be rocking in, you know, blind to what exactly being an NFL head coach entails outside of having played quarterback for a long time in this league.

Yeah. It'd be a strange hire. I mean, even if it ends up working out, I think the process of it is kind of silly when you consider how much these other guys have worked toward these jobs and how much they've had to put in and the years and the effort and all of that other stuff. So all right, is that all we got? We get through all of them. Do you think by the time we reconvene next Wednesday how many of these nine jobs will be filled? I hope it's like six of them. So we can actually start breaking down some of the hires and not speculate anymore.

It's crazy. Listen, is it? a little bit, not frustrating, is I even the right word? Is it strange and a little bit hard to talk about when none of these jobs have been filled all the way three weeks into this process? Sure. Is it in my mind a step in the right direction for some of these teams? Is there a little bit more deliberate about this process? 100%.

I think it's a leap in the right direction. Yes. I agree. I think this is a good sign for how teams are going about this and exhausting every single avenue and making sure you talk to everyone. every single consideration. I feel like it's a good sign. Will it work? Will it matter?

Who knows? Probably not. But at least it's a positive development. All right, guys, that's all we got. If you have not listened to Wednesday's episode with Lance Zerwein and Dan Brugler talking to Senior Bowl executive Jim Nagy, please do that. I also hopped on that show to break down some of the lessons we learned from the 2021 rookie class.

So highly encourage you guys to check that out. If you have not listened to Lindsay and Kattyl break down the Sean Payton news, also from Wednesday. again, I encourage you to listen to that. We will be back tomorrow with me and Nate breaking down the conference championship games. We're there. Also, Sheel's going to join us for some picks. Really looking forward to that.

In the meantime, please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. We're getting to the end of the season. If you like the show this year, let us know. It would mean a lot to me. Also, please subscribe to The Athletic. Theathletic.com slash football show. We have so many great things about those games and about the most important moments of the NFL season about all of these coaching hires.

I'm telling you, you cannot follow the league properly without a subscription to the site. Highly encourage you guys to go get one. We'll be back tomorrow with Nate. Until then, appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you soon. This was the Athletic Football Show.